P&S ModCast 426 - Legally Defensive Mindset - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Way so over at least from my from my perspective
over your left ear.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yes is a Webley. Yes, and uh, you know, I've
all I don't.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
I've never handled one, never seen one. I was only
halfway joking with a couple of friends when I was
talking about you know, I thought that, you know, I
want to carry a Webley as my eedc Yeah, well
it turns out, you know, shouldn't be surprised.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hey, there he is, dude. I am just off the range.
I am at Lovely Meat Hall. We literally just started.
You're perfect, You're you're you're perfect.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah. Oh it is live. Hey, we're live. We're live,
but for forty forty two seconds. Forty two seconds, so
perfectly fine.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
But Matt, there there's a couple of like really well
developed Facebook groups that are devoted to the Webley Revolver,
uh you know, and they actually vet vet members and
all that. And one of them is run by some
I think he's an engineer from Malta, like Malta the
country island country of Malta, and and it's like a

(01:07):
vacation spot, I think, so yeah, And uh, you know,
crusaders and all that in Knights of Malta. Uh, but
I just think it's entry, like one of the biggest
Facebook groups on the Webley revolvers run out of Malta.
But it's, man, some interesting stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
So oh yeah, it's it's just cool history. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
I'm just now starting to kind of learn a little
bit about it.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I know, it's been a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, not that I was being a little cavalier, I'll
say this cavalier about it, because you know, to me,
it's all about you know, Lawrence of Arabia with the
you know, you know, with the Webley and the.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
You know all that. You know. But it is kind
of cool though, man.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
And you know when you see the history behind it,
you see some of those guys, and.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
And the variants too, the evolution of it. Ohians, yeah,
because I believe that's a six. I think that's a
Mark six. So and that specifically is the one that
I wanted. Oh is it? Yeah? Have you ever fired it? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
it's really cool. I bet it is. It has a
timing issue though, Oh so there's a specific cylinder where

(02:12):
you're getting shavings off the projectile and I thought we're
not shooting this anymore. Yeah, yeah, And Yeah, it's just
it's just so cool. It's also fairly uh, fairly loose. Yeah,
you know, it's a baby rattle.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
But if I ever get one, I've got to get
one of those hats that I fold it up on
the side. You know.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Maybe you need a saber too, Yeah, you gotta have
a saber. Perhaps a writing crop. You know, I think
you're on this and and and uh and and tall boots,
writing boots. We're planning out a whole whole thing here.
It's just straight up cosplay at that point. But yeah,
building it around the gun though, that's right. Well, if

(02:53):
we think about it, Oh man, do we have the
right people to talk about this. That's the thing though, people,
Everything is a matter of fact. We even have Filster
here watching, uh, the the idea of people dressing around
the gun. I didn't even mean that. I forgot all
about Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah that's true. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
You get your you get married to a particular platform, yes,
whatever that is, and you're like, by god, that's what.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
I'm carrying, and it's your personality, it is, yeah, rolla
special is my personality though? Whatever is my and talking
to Andy Fisher, doctor Andrew D Fisher. Yeah, retired, I
did you. I think you're retired. But uh, he would
talk about how tourniquets turned into some people's personalities. Yes,

(03:43):
carrying a tourniquet, and everything's about the tournique, right. How
about being a parent or a husband or whatever. You're
be a plumber, that's a That's so many things you
can be. Don't have an object to dictate what your
what your personality is. That's it. Well, look, John can
test to this about my performance level.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
So I've there was a time when you know, I
mean I just lived for shooting and all that, and
you know, and probably probably not necessarily in the healthiest way.
You know, you find yourself disregarding other parts of your life.
And the last especially like the last five to seven years,
I've definitely been a and I'm not advocating this for

(04:27):
anybody else, by the way, but I've definitely been sort
of how good is good enough for me kind of thing,
you know. And so I freely admit I don't practice
like I should, or dry fire like I should, or
go to the range as much as I should and
all that and that, and it shows and I know
that I know that. So I when I you know,
one of the classes I went to John taught. You know,

(04:48):
I wasn't really shooting at the very best of my
ability as I could be had I done a little
training warm up. You know, maybe maybe in the a
couple of weeks beforehand, my performance would have been better.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
But it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
But is it good enough to meet probably ninety eight
percent of the challenges that I'd face? Well, yeah, probably,
so I'll be most likely. But so you know, I'm
very much, you know, a cyclical guy. You know, I'll
get squared away and then you know, then be lazy
for you know, a number of months.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
And so well, this and the whole idea of causing
the this whatever object the as your as your personality,
these kind of tie into our topic for today. So
I guess i'll officially say welcome to podcast episode four
twenty six. We're going to be talking about the legally

(05:37):
defensive mindset? Good do you explain that here in a minute?
The date though is April thirteenth, twenty twenty five. We
talk about guns on a regular basis. We just talked
about Webbley's, we talked about other other fun stuff. We
enjoy this. It's this is it's enjoyable stuff. It's enjoyable
to have to manipulate, to discuss, to shoot, to examine,

(05:58):
to study. But there are other topics that are also
important to bear in mind. I have these two guys
here for a reason. John has a wonderful background and
looking over trends and seeing what works, what doesn't work,
what's failing. We have Doug who consults professionally. He assists

(06:24):
in trials and acts as an expert witness, also speaks
at various town halls. We're not going to get into
that though, but the whole idea of well, the legal
aspects of deadly force or potential negative legal repercussions from

(06:48):
behaviors that we don't even think about, or things we
may say or do during the process after deadly force
might have you might accidentally blurt something out that might
might be be very negative. This is basically the discussion
for tenestion. And so the whole idea of the gun
being your personality. That could be your that can be

(07:11):
to your detriment. Your social media might be to your
detriment if everything's about something and getting in the getting
these shootouts, and this is what my whole life's about
and then you wind up getting into that shootout and
maybe someone's maybe it was wrongful, maybe someone was shot
that should not have been shot. Maybe all kinds of
concepts or all kinds of things. And basically my hopes

(07:34):
with this discussion is it provides some things for people
to consider. Now that being said, yeah, my backgrounds and
lawenforcement been doing the cop things since last century. This
has been in the front, in the front of my mind,
going to pretty much every incident when I'm off duty.
If I interact with the public in a capacity with

(08:01):
as a police officer, I'm more of a witness than
I'm jumping in, unless I can't think of a time
where I've I've really had to physically jump in. But
these are things that are always present in my decision making.
I know, for fact, most of our listeners these we

(08:21):
have some people that are very well clued into the good,
the bad, the ugly. But the serious nature of this,
this isn't deadly force firearms. These aren't things to be
taken lightly. These are things that we can have good understandings,
we can have good discussions. Unfortunately, they don't happen enough.

(08:43):
And so I'm hoping this discussion can help the listener
have discussions with people there with This might be a
good discussion also to have with family members if you
have kids that understand the gravity of all of this. Okay,
you know what we as a family go to, whatever
we go to a mall or a wal Mart or something.

(09:05):
Understand these are the factors that are being considered. And
this is why when we see things on the news,
this is why when this person acted this way, this
is why they're being charged with a crime versus this
person acted in this manner and they weren't charged with
a crime. So I think I will have have you
guys do your intros now. That's and that definitely turned down.

(09:28):
This turned kind of kind of almost because there's definitely
a seriousness of this topic, and there are aspects that
we can absolutely joke about. But the bottom line with
this is we're talking about life and death here, and
we're talking about further life, whether it's incarcerated or with
something on your mind for the rest of your life

(09:49):
because of something that you've done, whether it's intentional or unintentional.
Having this brought to your attention now though, rather have
you think about it now than when you're faced with
it in real time in your life, and you are
facing it directly, whether it's handcuffs, charges, you name it,
or even faced with a potential threat for you to

(10:12):
be able to have a better understanding of what's at play.
So let's get some backgrounds going. Doug.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
My name is Doug Deaton. I'm from Texas. I was
a police officer in Texas for almost twenty six years.
Twenty five years nine months. I retired from the Plano
Police Department, which is in Plano, Texas, part of the
larger Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex. I was the lieutenant over
Crimes against Persons in criminal investigations when I retired, so

(10:44):
I was responsible for supervising all investigations of officer of
ball shootings, everything that one human being can do to another,
everything from simple assault and threats to kidnapping, rape, robbery, murder,
and just anything you can imagine literally crimes against persons.

(11:07):
I like most other officers, I started out in uniform patrol.
I did that for a number of years. I was
on the SWAT team for about nine years. I've worked
in a number of investigative units. I was also the
training sergeant for the Plano PD for a few years
and then.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
You know, moved on.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
But so tonight when I speak, I'll just say this,
I'm probably going to speak from a kind of a
two pronged approach. One from my law enforcement background, but
two from what I've been doing since I left law
enforcement in twenty twenty one, and I now run a

(11:49):
private investigations and consulting company, and I primarily work as
a litigation consultant for attorneys, and I do almost almost entirely.
I'd say about probably not even ninety five percent of
my work is expert witness work, consulting in post incident analyses.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
I write a lot of reports.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
I have a lot of meetings with defense attorneys, plaintiffs attorneys,
and sometimes with the clients themselves, and so I've had
some incredible luck in that field. In the private sector,
I've worked on some pretty high profile cases, and I've
had an opportunity to see what happens on the other
side of the equation, and so I've been very blessed

(12:34):
to have a great law enforcement career. I know about
those conversations that occur with prosecutors and detectives and cops
and chiefs and bosses, And then I also know about
the conversations that occur with defense attorneys and quite frankly,
family members that are deciding whether or not they want
to continue paying. And those are some ugly and very

(12:54):
practical conversations that sometimes have to occur. So tonight I'll
be speaking, and I'll try to be clear. If I
express an opinion or tell a story of some kind,
I'll try to be very clear about which prom that's
coming from and why why I'm offering whatever thoughts I'm offering.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, great, John, Hey.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Hey, John Hern Here before I start the intro, though,
you said something that I.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Think I want to chime in on real quick.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
There's a quote that I believe is attributed to Dwight Eisenhower,
and that was to the effect that plans are worthless,
but planning is invaluable. So yeah, I think that's a
lot of the perspective we need to be thinking about.
Whatever plans you develop are probably not going to survive
first contact, but if you have engaged in a lot

(13:43):
of planning over a long time, you're probably going to
be able to pull something out. As far as me,
good lord dude, public safety career, police fire ems nine
one one dispatcher depressing me over thirty five years, I
think in total, as far as that stuff goes, spent
motion career on the law enforcement side. Retired as a

(14:03):
supervisor for the National Park Service at one of our
busiest units. Taught a lot for the agency, taught use
of force at the academy level, and foreign service. As
far as that goes, I did a lot of work
with our courts. I've been the prosecutor under local rules,
I was our courtly asign. Work with local US attorneys
for a bunch of years. As far as that stuff goes,

(14:24):
I mean, I have doug experience in some of this stuff,
but I have had a seat at the sausage factory
from Asian and again quoting another great man, I think
it was Churchill, I said, you know, you know, legislation
and sausages is not something that you want to see made.
And to a large degree, justice is something that is
not as neat and clean and pure as a lot

(14:46):
of us would prefer to believe, especially you know, post
twenty fourteen. Let's say, so, I think that that's the
quick intry right there.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah. Yeah, And unfortunately also with firearms, with firearms performing.
We have the legal perspectives that are all presented by entertainment,
and so people watch Law and Order and think, yeah,
thirty minutes, do they really think that. No, but they
think it's going to be speedy, and it's not necessarily
sure speedy trial. Yeah, that's a thing, But let's define

(15:18):
what speedy is. It's not the next day, it's not
the next week, it's yeah. So we definitely have there's
a mixture of law enforcement and non law enforcement uses
a force and there are some common factors and there
are some factors that are slightly different due to law enforcement.

(15:39):
When you consider law enforcement, that is their job to
respond to things. They are actively seeking, not necessarily confrontation,
but to a point confrontation. They're actively looking to stop
criminal activity, while someone who is non law enforcement that's
not necessarily their role. So that might be a factor

(16:01):
to consider with all of this. If you're going through
Walmart looking to stop shoplifters as a carpenter, that probably
is not going to work out very well for you.
A number one thing is, as John said, having this
plan it may not work out, but also knowing what
your role is and having a good idea of how

(16:22):
you fit in this grand scheme, So, Doug, in your
experience when it comes to people going to court for
for citizens, yeah, citizens, non law enforcement going to court
for whatever it is, what is the common denominator of

(16:46):
their misunderstanding of the whole ordeal?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Well, many people think that, and sometimes you're right, you know,
they think, well, you know, I'll be able to explain this.
I'll be able to tell my side of the story,
and my side of the story will will be the leading,
the leading story that is believed and paid the most
attention to. And you know, my side of the story

(17:10):
is the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
And so once I just explain what happened.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Here and why I had to do, you know, what
I did, then they'll be reasonable and they'll understand that
many people do not fully understand that witnesses will each
have their own individual perspective on this, and that each
and every human being who offers their input, whether they're
an eyewitness, whether they're a participant, whether it's the person

(17:40):
you use force against, and here's a big one, I'd
like to point out, the companion of the person that
you may have been forced.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
To take action against, whether.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
That's their brother, cousin, sister, wife, you know whomever. They
too will have a significant amount of of input and
they're going to be listened to as well. So all
of these perspectives will be heartfelt, or at least still
appear to be, and they will be deeply felt, and
typically most law enforcement agencies are going to give all

(18:17):
of them an opportunity to provide that input in one
way or another, whether that's a verbal statement on the scene,
a written statement, or both of those, and also a
subsequent interview which occurs in a more sterile and controlled environment.
So keep in mind that no matter how firm you
are in your own convictions, there will be a multifaceted

(18:42):
just a very I'm just going to be a lot
of different components at play. There will be many different
perspectives and those are all going to be looked at,
and then if all of those things do not align
with your perspective, then you could have a problem on
your hands. And many people don't understand that. They think

(19:02):
of themselves as a central figure in this story. I
am the main character in this story, and I'm also
the narrator of this story. Therefore, my narrative voice should
have the most power and control over the direction of
this narrative, and that is not true.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
And with that in mind, as people are hearing this,
I could see two different directions. I could see someone thinking, oh, no,
not me, or well, yeah, that's true. Well you know what,
it is true most everyone is seeing the world from
that perspective. That's absolutely am I seeing the world that way? Absolutely? Yeah?

(19:39):
And yes, clearly my way is this is the one
true way. And you know what, is there some bias
going on? Absolutely? Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Many people never stop to think about the fact that
it is certainly possible for other people to believe that
your explanation is unreasonable and that your actions were not necessary.
And those are really the two most important things. Whatever
you do, was it reasonable, was it necessary? That's really

(20:12):
what's going to be looked at. And as I've said
ad nauseum, both on this podcast and on others, whether
you like it or don't like it, it will not
be up to you, the citizen actor, to decide if
your actions on the scene that night are even in
your own home, it will not be up to you

(20:35):
to decide if your actions were both reasonable and necessary.
It will be up to other people to decide that,
and that is just a harsh truth.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
So what comes to mind for me is, as you're
talking about this, I'm thinking about a case that we
talked about a couple months ago, and it was a
fairly popular, well known incident. And it was the case
of the dumpster defender. Yeah, and oh my god, Yeah,

(21:06):
let's let's talk about that for a second. Yeah, because
clearly both sides think they're right. Yes they do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well again, this is where I again, if anybody's ever
followed me or any of the you know, my other
statements or appearances or what have you, you're going to
know one of my favorite quotes from Carl Sagan, you know,
the famous you know, astrophysicist scientists, where we have strong emotions,
we are apt to fool ourselves human beings, we have

(21:35):
an incredible capacity to lie to ourselves and to make
ourselves believe that what we are doing is righteous, necessary,
and that we're you know, that we're on the right
side of this of this equation.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
But I assure.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
You, sometimes we are wrong and the other side feels
just as strongly that they're right. You know, I hate
to admit that that dumpster shooting the duel at the
dumpster that occurred right here in my home.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
State of Texas.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Uh, it's a shameful It's just a shameful exhibition of
stupidity by both parties. I will just say this, just
forget everything else. When a man has a gun in
his hand and he tells you, if you take another step,
I'm going to shoot you.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Actually said.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I think he said, I'm going to kill you. You know,
you touch me, I'll kill you. You tell you take another step,
I'll kill you.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Believe him, Believe the guy. Believe him.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Okay, And it doesn't matter if he's reasonable or rational
or not. He's standing there with a gun in his hand.
What does he have? He has the ability to deliver
on his threat. He's made a threat, and he's set
parameters or boundaries on that threat. Why in the hell
would you go ahead and test that.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
It's just stupid. So for the for the sake for
the listeners viewers who may not know what we're talking about,
can you quickly give a synopsis of of the situation. Oh,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Claude Werner has done just a phenomenal on that, but okay,
So I think this may have had I believe it
occurred in Abilene, Texas.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
I think it did. Don't quote me on that.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
So it's a dumpster in a in an alley of
a residential area, and by the way, it's just a
filthy alley.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
It's just kind of just disgusting.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
And somebody has dumped a mattress there at the dumpster. Well,
you're not supposed to dump a mattress at the dumpster.
And so you have two sides to this thing. You
have a a I won't call him elderly, but you
have an older man who's there with a handgun. You
have another his son who's there with a shotgun, both

(23:39):
of them not wearing shirts, both of them with prodigious
beer guts.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
And then you got the other side, a man and
his wife. The wife is the one filming. She's probably
not helping the situation any a little bit of agitation
here and there, but the the man, it's one guy
is effectively one man versus two people, right, And it's
this ongoing, escalating back and forth about who has a

(24:10):
right to dump stuff at the dumpster and whether or
not you're violating the rules of dumping trash and mattresses
at the dumpster, you know, the very kind of topic
that is, you know, the kind of thing you want
to lay your life and your future and your family's
future on, of course, and so it just continues to escalate,
and neither side will back down. It's that classic game

(24:32):
of escalado, and it becomes clear that egos are out
of control, and then threats are made, and then the
ultimately the guy who gets shot, the guy whose wife
is filming he is. I mean again, I'm not saying
they're right, they were not right, but the fact guy

(24:54):
did tell him he was going to shoot him and
kill him, and rather than backing away and leaving, uh,
he continues to agitate that and say things like you know, no,
you're not you won't do it, you know bullshit, you know,
effectively daring the guy to shoot him, I mean all
but saying you're not man enough to pull that trigger,

(25:14):
you know. I mean, Jesus, I mean what I mean, this, this,
this this stupidity. I mean, we're all dumber for having
watched the video. I mean, it's just it's like a
it's like a negative pressure. It's like I can feel
my IQ points being drained into the alley itself. Along
with the dumpster. That's how stupid, uh, the entire thing is.
But but he ends up being shot and killed right

(25:37):
there on camera.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
So uh.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
But again, if anybody's watching this, please go read Claude
Werner's work on that, the duel at the dumpster. It's
it's just it's great work.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah. So, John, you worked for the Park Service in
the law enforcement capacity, that's the rumor.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yep, okay, I get attention every month, so the evidence senses.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
So how often were you running into patrons that were
violating some kind of a code or some specific law
or a rural regulation that was guiding something with the
specific federal parks. It was a regular currens.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
And also it kind of depends on where you are
you get these little bizarre insular communities. I spent some
time out near Las Vegas, and we had home what
were essentially homeless camps. You had campers that would declare
territory and stuff like that. People get territorial over the
smallest things very quickly, and that leads to a lot
of confrontations and disputes over matters that to call them

(26:46):
trivial would be to dignify them too much.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Overward, debating. Yeah. Yeah, so with the parks though, there
are specific guidelines, you're there are specific behaviors and things
that that are kind of encouraged that you're not supposed
to probably start fires or in throughout they're probably designated areas.

(27:11):
But the direction I'm going with this is there are laws,
there are rules, there are regulations that guide behaviors, and
people are going off what they think should be. Yeah,
this is perfectly reasonable. I'm the exception versus well, you
know what, you can't use deadly force in defense of

(27:31):
a dumpster. You can't use deadly force, and you can't
and you don't. You can't lay claim to this plot
of land in federally protected areas because that's what it is.
You can't live there. But yes, there's some common denominators
here with people not understanding or not knowing what the laws,
the law, what the law's rules regulations are, and how

(27:57):
much how many of these incidents would just disappear if
people had a better understanding of Okay, this is with
the laws, this is this is deadly force, this is
standard ground, this is castle doctrine, right, this is this
is how these apply, and this is how how they work.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
The think part of that is is a lot of
people have the attitude of can't you see my white hat?
You don't need to bother me with those details, and
the details don't matter until the details matter, and then
the only thing that matters are the details. I would say, sadly,
even your typical concealed carrier is wefully ignorant as far

(28:36):
as the complexities of the law, and the problem has
become that the mirrored letter of the law being in
compliance with it is not enough. We've developed this system
where the process is the punishment, and sometimes even following

(28:57):
the rules is not enough to get somebody to keep
you from, you know, running up running it up the
flag pole and seeing what happens. You know, people have
weird ideas of winning.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
You know. My idea of winning is getting.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Home as intact as possible, which really does make those
concepts of you know, de escalation, avoidance, de selection, all
that stuff super important, because you do win one hundred
percent of the fights that you don't get into. And
people just assume that that everybody can see the white hat.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Hey, I was so righteous about what.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
I did or did not do, and they don't understand
the larger you know, the larger context in which their
actions are taking place, and they certainly don't understand the
machinery that they're likely to get tossed into as part
of that process.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
And you brought up de escalation, avoidance and selections, deselection,
and the sad thing is, and they're what truly wonderful concepts,
but they're not they're not cool concepts. This isn't this doesn't.
This doesn't play into my well, my dry fire every
day and my my P eight score. Right Fortunately though,

(30:10):
I yeah, most of the people, most of our listeners
that are heavy into that, have a better understanding of
the de escalation and all that. But for for common
everyday citizens, I have this gun and I'm going to
use it. I'm not going to I'm not going to
de escalate. I'm not going to avoid. And that's why
we have dumpster defenders. That's why we have other incidents
that are Yeah, John.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
The problem is they're training the thing they're least likely
to need because at the deadly force comes at the
very ninety fifth percentile of the end of the process
coming along. I'll just throw this out real quick, because
you're probably training the wrong stuff. I first met Claude
Werner around two thousand and four, and I didn't know
that Claude was the lead instructor of the Elite Rogers

(30:54):
Shooting School because there's apparently only one Elite Rogers shooting school.
There is just no Plane Rogers Shooting School my thought.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
But he was a role.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Player in a series of scenarios run by a guy
by name of David Blonder, and one of the scenarios
was like, You're in an convenience store and there's an
armed robbery, and I couldn't figure out what the hell
this weird guy was doing, because what he would do
is he would open the door of the convenience store
while you were processing your scenario, see an armed robbery
was underway, and.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Then turn around and walk out. And I finally had
to ask him, like what are you doing? And it's like, well, dude,
it's like you have to train all of this stuff.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
You think that you know just because you know the
answer to the test that hey, if I go and
start to going to the convenience store and there's an
arm robbery in place, I'm probably best to leave. But
you know, actively practicing that is part of what you
probably need to be working on if you would like
to have a long, healthy, productive life in the current
environment we're working in.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, that's it. So to John's Well, what John just
said that the current environment that we're working in. And
so I know that I have.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
Rubbed some people to long way with a few things
that I've said here and there in various podcasts, and
so I want to clarify a couple of things. It
doesn't matter what. Let me let me rephrase that. What
I would like everybody who's watching this to do is,
just while we're talking about this daring this podcast, I'm sorry,

(32:19):
this print off behind me.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
I don't know what's happening. They do that by themselves.
My wife is printing something. I don't know what the
hell's happening.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Just for the just while we're on this particular show,
I'd like the listeners to just just momentarily, temporarily just
forget about things like right and wrong and just and unjust,
and how things should be and how.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
It ought to work out.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
And I'd like you to just stop and think about
things in terms of how they really are, whether you
like it or don't like it, whether it's right or not,
whether it's just or not how the world should be
versus how it acts actually is. Okay, you know, I,
like everybody else, I have a notion in my mind
of what the justice system should work like and how

(33:11):
all of that should work. After a righteous and decent
citizen is involved in an ugly.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Situation where they have to use force.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Most of that is highly and completely irrelevant, completely irrelevant.
We have to deal with the system as it actually is,
and we have to look at the hazards of it
as they really are. And so I'd like you to
think about maybe being in a canoe without a paddle,

(33:41):
that is in a roaring river, and you're going downstream
and there's all these rocks and boulders in the middle
of the river, and so, you know, you try to
pick up a stick or try to do whatever sort
of You can't really control it. You can sort of
guide it or influence it maybe a little bit. And
what we're trying to do is get you know, only

(34:01):
a foolish person would think that they're going to take
that canoe bash it into a boulder in the middle
of the river, and it's going to make.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
That boulder go away. That's not what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
So you have to be able to try to try
to navigate the system. But it's imperfect and you actually
have very little control. You may have some influence, your
attorney may have significant influence, but as far as control,
you don't actually have control. Once you press that trigger
and the shooting is all done, and now we're in

(34:33):
the post incident, the post incident scene, which begins literally
at the tenth of a second after the last shot
is fired. Now we're in the post incident you know phase,
and that will begin right then and it will last
somewhere between three to five years after that, optimally, yeah,

(34:53):
optimally correct, optimally, And I just want to reiterate, you
do not have control. You have some influence, and other
parties will also have influence, and so it's just please
just divorce again. I'm not telling I'm not telling you wrong.
I'm just asking you just just divorce yourself from all
those thoughts.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
For just a moment.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Let's deal with things as they as as the ugly
parts of it, the the unsavory and the the unfortunate,
you know parts of it, because that's that's the worst
case scenario, and sometimes that happens to really good people.
So just put that to the side at least for
the portion of this show. And I think we're I
think we're going to talk about really unfortunate outcomes and

(35:37):
and you know, alternate routes that take us to places
we didn't think we.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Were going, you know, So, John anything, I'm just reminded
of one of my father's cooquialisms, which if you excuse
me for a moment, which is to wish in one hand,
shift in the other, and tell me which one fills
up first. That's it.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
You know, what you wish has absolutely no bearing on
what's doing. It's kind of like, you know, it's kind
of like pushing a you know, starting a snowball going
down the hill. You know, when you press that trigger,
you're kind of starting that snowball, and you don't know
where it's going to end up and what it's going
to end up. Taking out is part of the process. Therefore,

(36:18):
the best option is to avoid that entire process to
begin with. It's just a reality of the world that
the odds of view as a completely innocent person being
convicted and being sent to spend your life in a
prison cell with a bunch of legitimately horrible people is

(36:40):
not zero. There is always the potential for a wrongful
conviction somewhere on the table.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
The odds aren't zero for being wrongly convicted. Just that's
not the way the world works.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Sorry.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
The next thing we're going to talk about is how
the tooth fairy doesn't exist, But we'll save that one
for another episode, right.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Well, and not to get over not to get political
or to discuss things that are that are hot topics.
But what's his name? Derek chau mm hmmm. Yeah, based
on my understanding, he did not kill anyone. There was
an over there. The subject died from an overdose. However,

(37:25):
public opinion may have altered that course.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, and an approved narrative, a pre approved narrative. So
when come back to some other things, But to that point,
to the Derek Chauvin thing, I'd like everybody to remember
that there are things before you actually go to trial.
There are often hearings, uh and and hearings look an

(37:52):
awful lot like just regular courtroom stuff because it's the
attorneys involved, usually the defendant, and a judge, but the
jury is usually not in the room for a hearing,
and a hearing can be a hearing can last ten
minutes or it can last a few days. It just
depends on what the topic is. And I wish the
attorney was here to back up what I was saying too.

(38:14):
But you know, there's different types of evidentiary hearings. There's
all kinds of different styles of hearings and fancy names
for them. But I have personally been in the private sector.
I have been in hearings where I was acting as
an expert witness on the stand and you know, being
questioned and all that, and then the attorneys get into

(38:38):
an argument about what terminology will be allowed to be used, right,
And I've also seen this done with police officers and
detectives on the stand. And then they said, okay, all right,
so I'll tell you what the judge is like, all right,
we will not allow any discussion about these three Facebook posts,

(38:58):
but we will allow a discussion. We will allow discussion
in front of the jury about those four Facebook posts.
And this is after they've argued for you know, you know,
a couple of hours about it, and what you realize is, oh, dude, okay,
so uh some really stupid and foolish stuff that I

(39:21):
wrote on Facebook, out of.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
The eight really bad posts.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
That I wrote, that only a moron would write, I'm
really lucky because they're only going to allow the jury
to see four of them instead of all of them. Well,
do you really want all those being shown? So again,
this is the part you don't get to control what's determined.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
And so.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Let me try to summarize it. So if anybody's ever
seen like you know, like archaeology shows, or you know,
like when they're when they're trying to sometimes even like
they're processing gravel, Okay, so big machine to come out
there to scoop up a whole bunch of dirt, right,
a whole bunch of dart material, and they put it
into this one layer, and there's a sifter and it's

(40:04):
sifting and it's shaking, and the heavy material, the larger stuff,
it doesn't go through the grate, okay, and it drops
into the next one. And then that one sifts and
it shakes and undulates and all that, and it's a
little bit smaller gaps and then smaller material goes through
that into the next one. And so that's how they
end up going with big boulders two smaller you know,

(40:26):
the rocks, the smaller stuff, the pea gravel, until eventually
down to sand, right, and it's it's separated out all
of this material along the way through this lengthy process. Well,
if you're involved in a use of force incident, not
just as shooting, but any kind of use of force
against another human being, whether that's physical force or a
display of a firearm or a weapon, what have you,

(40:48):
that's the kind of process that will occur. And it
begins with the very first responders that usually it's a
uniform you know, uniform patrol officers, followed by detectives, followed
by additional detectors or investigators, and then often involving investigators
from the DA's office, if not an intake attorney. And
so it's a series of sifters that start to separate

(41:12):
out the material. And what you want, both as a
police officer and as a private citizen, is for your
case and your facts and your behavior to be separated
out as early as possible in that process and then
remove from it and then it stops. You don't want
to be the one that gets through all of those

(41:34):
different layers and they decide, you know what, we are
going to go ahead and put a case on this guy,
put a case on this lady. You want to find
off ramps early on in the process. But please please
allow me to assure anybody listening the kind of conversations

(41:54):
that occur amongst police officers, investigators by Sanders, even your teaching.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I'll come back to that in a moment. Yes, your
previous teachers. You can be a grown adult and they will.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Listen to your high school teachers about whether you were
an asshole or not. And I'm not making that up.
They do, and they will, they will go and talk
to people, and that really is the question. Was this
guy an asshole? Is this guy an asshole? And then
if you find like six seven, eight nine people in
your personal life somewhere that yeah, it's kind of an asshole, Well,

(42:28):
do you think they're going to throw you out of
that process early or do you think they're going to
take a harsher and a little bit closer look at
your behavior that day? And so our behavior and what
we post and how we act and how we treat
others previous to the incident absolutely does have a bit
of an effect on the intensity of the investigator of

(42:50):
the subsequent investigation.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
So it just does.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
There's just no getting around anybody who says that that's
not true. They're just not being honest. Because as you
that happens, and so you want to try to get
yourself separated out of that of that process as early
as possible, but it may not always be possible. But
just think of it that way. It's a process. It's
a mechanistic process. It's being things are being sorted. It's

(43:19):
a funnel, and the sooner you can get out of it,
the better. And a lot of that is highly dependent
on the way you have comported yourself prior to the incident.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
It's the way that you.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Acted obviously in the moments just prior to the ancident,
like the thirty seconds prior during the incident itself, and
then of course in the two minutes after the incident
has stopped.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
What you said, what you did, you know, those kind
of things, Those.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Are probably the most critical moments for any either a
police officer or a prommence citizen.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
The way you describe that made me think of something
completely off the subject, but it's it's in a way related.
If you haven't looked up inaccurate, what are they reconstructions
in paleontology very interesting, early paleontologists taking dinosaur bones and
trying to figure out how the animal was and to

(44:15):
see what they how they were presented to compared to
what they're presented. Now, that's kind of what's going on
with some of these cases. That's exactly throwing things together
and going, you know what, this sticks. This works if
you know match what you perceived, that's right.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Well, no, Matt, you're spot on, because let me assure you.
One side will say, no, this is a cyclops. Yeah,
that's what this is. You know, No, that's an elephant skeleton.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Now now, man, you wish it was an elephant skeleton.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
We know it's a cyclops, and we can convince twelve
people that this is a monster, not a not just
some common land animal. Yeah, and that that's exactly what
they will do. I promise you that's what they do.
That's what they attempt to And now you have twelve
people trying to sid well whose reconstruction of this incident
is the most plausible. I don't know, this guy seems

(45:09):
you know, I mean this, I mean there's some merit
to this, and you know that guy's kind of an asshole.
So yeah, I think I'm going to go with this one.
It really does sometimes come down to something just that simple.
I wish it didn't, but it sometimes does.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
And it's it's a matter of getting as the investigator,
getting as much information as possible. And so, how are
you helping or hurting your case by your current mindset,
your current training, your current Facebook posts, what you say
to people, your your attitudes.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
That that is all unbelievably important nowadays it is. And
again I butt it has with some people on that
and they're like, oh, that's bullshit, Doug. You know, if
it's a good shooting, it's a good shooting. They're just wrong.
They're wrong about that. And I've personally seen it, both
as a police officer and then later as an expert witness.

(46:07):
I have personally seen multiple juries in multiple jurisdictions. Look
at those kinds of things. How you act in your
personal life, including online, does in fact color the opinions
of finders of fact after your shooting.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
It does. That's just the bottom line.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
You can make the argument, well that's not relevant, but
that's not a decision that you get to make. That
is not why it is not in your court. And
I'll just show this out here, sir. The thought that
pops into my mind was, I would say, in the
past historically. The other thing I have some familiarity with
is the rangemaster student involved shootings. Yeah, decades ago, they

(46:48):
would look at the criminal history of the bad guy
and I don't know if you would call it a
straight up by kind of Texas needed shooting, but if
you pulled a gun on And that's the thing we
you talk about is very few of the prosecutions you
really need to worry about are straight up homicide, but
they're much more likely to be involving brandishing a gun.
But if you shot Muki in the gas station parking lot,

(47:10):
and Muki had three priors for armed robbery, that would
be enough for most of the detectives to stop right there.
The Districttorney's office is going to be interesting. We've kind
of rebranded who victims are and that information. You may
not know that at the time, but those are the
kind of facts that used to influence how we sorted
people out. And that's I think some of what's missing

(47:32):
is and while we're finding more and more people being
examined and to getting the full treatment, because that is
no longer part.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Of the calculus as to how we proceed with these things.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's absolutely accurate, and I've personally seen that exact thing occur.
They no longer just look at the guy you shot
his criminal history. They start looking at your past interactions
with the how many times have you ever been called
in on? How many you know, has there been any

(48:05):
other reports? And believe me, if they really want to
hang hang you figuratively, they will go and speak to
your coworkers, They will speak to your neighbors, they will
do a.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Deep dive into your social media. They will.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
And again, all jurisdictions are not created the same. What
happens in you know, Conservative County in Texas is very
different than what might occurs, say in Prince William County
in Virginia, you know, or you know wherever San Francisco
is located. I don't know the name of the county there,
but very very very different priorities and so a very

(48:43):
different process with the guard to looking into the backgrounds
of the people involved.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
So, if you guys don't mind, we'll take a quick
little break about actually exactly one minute thirty eight seconds
can run some quick ads. Go get a drink. If
you're able to bathroom, it's up to you, but yeah,
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that's how it's done. Lighting it at the last minute.
That was pretty impressive. Yeah, and Doug, Doug was able
to eat dinner. We'll probably have Dave similarly jump in

(51:02):
here momentarily. Another another cop because there's some cop aspects
to this, but they also mirror everyday citizen things, but
I won't get into that quite Yet. Another incident that occurred,
and this has had it's it's it's funny when they're
high emotions, there's cloudy decision making. Yes, is it dope

(51:27):
because it's pretty they're definitely, it's it's very definite decision making.
It's very final. Was it also Texas with the stepfather
that shut the father? Yes?

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, in in Amarillo, Texas? No no, no, no no,
we're talking about where he'shotting with the ruger. Uh pcc
I believe. So okay, yeah, so custody issue. So you've
got two guys, bullheaded guys. You know that one's really
embarrassing is also coming out of Texas because the woman

(52:04):
again another common denominator.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Okay, what are you saying?

Speaker 1 (52:10):
It seems like there's always a woman filming it, right, Uh.
And she's sitting there talking trash and the guy shoots
the other guy. He falls over, he's dead as a doornail.
And she's like, Bill, I tell you're gonna be in
a lot of trouble. And she's still talking as if
though nothing has happened yet.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Right. You can see who she who and what she
really values.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, okay, so that's a great that is a great example.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
So Matt, I attract that one man.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
I wish I knew we would talk about that one,
because I've kept a running spreadsheet on that one about
about the actions of the court. I've been watching the
the I've been watching the Register of Actions on that
and how long it has taken the courts to work
through that. And I also want to point out that
the shooter had a relationship with a judge in the area,

(53:07):
and there were some allegations of you know, you know,
you know, being overly friendly with the judicial system whatever,
And ultimately, the the Texas Attorney General's office conducted that
investigation and he ended up eventually eventually not having to

(53:27):
go to criminal trial for that. But here's the part
I want other people to really listen on. Keep looking
at the Register of Actions on that. That didn't make
his problems go away. There was a couple of different
civil suits which got merged into one. And guess what,
just because you have your stuff separated into an LLC

(53:49):
or an LP, you know, limited partnership or some other business, well,
that ultimately did not protect him because all of those
businesses were also registered to the same location where the
shooting occurred, and so they sued them as well, and
ultimately that thing was settled for an undisclosed amount, and
I bet it wasn't in his favor. And uh yeah,

(54:12):
so they sued him all of his businesses and what
you And I talked to the reporter that was covering that,
and so that guy was in the oil and gas
business and ran a couple of different you know, field
support service type you know companies, and you know, according
to what I was told, the guy had to liquidate
all kinds of assets. Which so now you're talking about

(54:33):
people with real jobs driving trucks, working on you know,
pump pumpers and all that, losing their jobs. I mean,
that stupid shooting had a cascading effect. Again, just like
you're throwing a big boulder into a small pond. It
had this ripple effect outwards. It destroyed that guy's personal life,

(54:54):
It destroyed his businesses, It destroyed, you know, people that
were working for him. So even though he didn't go
to prison, uh it really did. It really has ruined
his life. And it goes back to that thing I mentioned.
Was it reasonable?

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Was it necessary?

Speaker 1 (55:11):
And most adult Americans can look at those kind of
videos and tell we're looking at two bullheaded guys that
are not going to back down from each other. They're
both stupid. They're both in the wrong.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
And then this man murdered that one and now and
then it's a big legal fight. But what was the
crooks of the of the dispute.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Child a child visitation or child excuse me, excuse me,
child custody?

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Is bio dad did not live at that residence. It
was bio mom and stepdad were at the residents. Yes,
bio dad shows up and wanted to take kid. I
don't don't quote me on that, but it's something like that.
So you know, So there was an altercate of verbal
altercate verbal, Yeah, a lot of shoving and pushing, and

(56:05):
then the stepdad goes inside.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
The head to forehead. When I say bullheaded, I mean
literally that.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
And then smaller man goes into the house, comes back
out with his Ruger nine millimeter PCC, which you know,
great trigger finger discipline and has it you know, kind
of the safety circle. Yeah, and what does the other
guy do effectively says you're not man enough to use that.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
It just like a defender, yeah, very similar, challenging him, yeah,
and shoot me, and the other guy's like I will, yes,
I will know you will.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
You're pussy this that and the other and again more
physical pushing back and forth, and then as simple, I
mean steps back, raises that rifle up, that weapon up
and pop pop, and that's it. And I mean he
falls like a rock. I mean it is instantaneous. And then,
like I said, the woman is in the videos just

(57:00):
running her mouth about you're going to be in trouble.
You know, it's like your husband is laying their dead lady,
and what is she doing talking trash to the guy,
you know, her ex husband.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
You know, it's just a very ugly scene.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
But uh, man, Matt, when I will send you my
spreadsheet on that, just because I've been keeping track of
the dates.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
And it's a great example of the kind.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
Of anxiety, long term anxiety that that people never stop
to think about, Like, wait, what three years three years
of ongoing legal battles and hearings and legal fees and
and now they're trying to take my property and my
businesses and all that.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Yeah, they are. You know, you get multiple people suing you,
and uh, it's.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
All right there. I mean, it's just right here, literally
black and white. Right, Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
No, That's an important kind of branching decision in these things.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
It's most people carry a gun in order to shoot
the arm robber. They don't know. Where the likelihood of
prosecutions really go up.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
Is these situations where the people are already known to
each other, yes, disbutes between family members and stuff like that,
they're going to get far greater levels of scrutiny than
if you do pop MOOKI in the gas station parking lot.
And most people don't think that should matter, and perhaps
in a perfect world it wouldn't, but if we look

(58:25):
at the world in which we're actually functioning, those engagements
with people known to you in advance are always going
to warrant extra scrutiny, which also kind of tells me
that we probably need to be extra concerned about trying
to avoid them and get out of them whenever possible.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
And part of it is it's just.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
You know, kind of that, you know, the monkey dance
is the phrase that I've heard about this kind of stuff,
and once people get in that monkey dance cycle, it
just does not tend to end up well.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
And then you combine.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
That, you know, obviously a man is dead, that's a
pretty bad outcome. But also, you know, when you combine
all these things together. You have no winners in this
thing at whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
No correct So me from the outside, I live in
a completely different state. I see something like that, and
I think, clearly I don't see justification. However, I'm not
living under Texas laws, and having an understanding of your
laws probably is a good thing, dug. So what ultimately,

(59:29):
what was the outcome legally criminally, I should say, with
with that case.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Well, again that that went through a whole long, convoluted
process which was highly unpopular.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Uh, it had.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
There was a lot of really strong opinions on it,
and there probably should have been. It was that that
particular shooting was very regular. Correction, the the post shooting
environment was very very regular, even for Texas. As I
mentioned he Uh, the shooter had a pre existing relationship
with like a district judge or something like that, some lady,

(01:00:04):
and that's why they had to bring in the Attorney
General's office. There's an awful lot of people who feel
like that guy should have been tried and frankly convicted
in a criminal courtroom.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
The fact that that didn't happen was a little weird,
just to be honest, it was weird.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
But you know, the thing is, you know, even here
in Texas, I promise you it's not a free for all.
And uh, you know, the laws here are pretty many
people don't believe this. Laws here pretty similar to the
laws of most other states west of the Mississippi. You know,
I've had I've had some opportunities to look at look

(01:00:44):
at you know, some states, Western states especially, and you know,
the language is a little different, you know, in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Terms of art.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
But I mean it may shock some people, but you know,
the Texas law and self defense is remarkably similar to
the in Washington law.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
On self defense. I mean, it's just it's a matter
of degrees.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
So and again, I guess the big deal I want
to point out to people is that, you know, we
always see the exceptions. We see the the guy that
got away with it or what have you. But by
and large, you know, the system it grinds you to dust.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
It just does. And and uh, if.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
You do something stupid, expect it to grind you to dust,
both the criminal side and then and then the civil
side as well. And hey, even if you win, right, Oh,
I'm a big winner today. Okay, so five hundred thousand
dollars later, and you know, seven seven years later, and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
The step children also no longer have biodad, which that
is going to negatively affect them. Correct.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
So most people just don't ever think of those second
and third order you know, uh uh, you know, effects
and consequences. They just rarely do. And and again you know,
I'm including myself and that we all, all of us.
One of the most dangerous things that we can feel
is righteous anger. Righteous anger lies to us on an

(01:02:12):
everyday basis.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
It does.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
And when you start to think that you are righteously angry,
that is when all of us, and I'm talking to
myself too, you have really need to stop and think,
am I righteously angry?

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Or am I just pissed off?

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Okay? And is this worth having even a conversation? Is
it worth saying anything to that guy at all? And
most of the time it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
It's just not. That's the place of the copside too.
Oh dude, let me tell you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
If I could go back and kick my own ass
just like yeah, for stuff that I said and did
the first half of my police career, I would.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
I wish I could. Anyway, Poor David, he's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
On here and we're just rattling along as if the
guy's not even here, we see.

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
You, David strangely, you know, how's my audio?

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Good? Right, So let's do a slight pivot then into
the law, into a law enforcement aspect.

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
Well, well, hold on, hold on, oh please please, I
have some things I would like to add. I heard
a little bit in the beginning. Yeah, one of the
big things, it's the it's the three stupids. Stupid people,
stupid places, stupid times. If you avoid those three things,
the chances of you even being in a situation where
you're going to put yourself to where you're going to

(01:03:31):
end up meeting to speak to an attorney or speak
to the police is going to be very very low. Yes, Now,
occasionally something like that is just entirely unavoidable. Hey, I'm
going to run out of gas and I have to
take this exit because I didn't pre plan. Well, this
is a stupid place at a stupid time, because two
o'clock in the morning, and oh god, it's m OK Boulevard.

(01:03:54):
So you know, we have to we have to, we
have to mitigate when we can. But or you know,
let's say you have a young child who gets sick
and you're like, well, we can either drive with a
car full ovomitter, we could pull over and fix the problem.
So there are unfortunately accenuating circumstances which will put people
stupid places and at stupid times. However, avoiding as much

(01:04:21):
as those three stupids as you can can will certainly
reduce the risk of needing to speak to the police
or to an attorney. I've been I've been present for
a number of different investigations where people entirely not law
enforcement related to have shot or stab each other. And
there have been times where, and I'm sure you guys

(01:04:45):
have have have done this too, where you tell the
person in the most let's say, round about non specific
way possible. If I could high five year right now,
I would, right, yes. But there are also times where
you're like, oh, buddy, this is uh, this is not

(01:05:06):
necessarily that great. You're not you're not going to go
in handcuffs tonight, but uh, don't leave town. The prosecutor
is going to talk about this. Yeah, And and of
course there's there's been plenty of times where it's been oh, hey,
you're still here, Well that was dumb Tommy Goodale.

Speaker 5 (01:05:22):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but uh but but yeah, yeah, the
righteous anger by gosh, guilty of it myself, and and
uh oh, we we talk about I won't use the
terms that I wouldn't I won't use the local vernacular,

(01:05:42):
let's say.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
But uh, let's say people involved in criminal enterprise when
they victimize each other most of the time, most of
the time it is because of situations like the dumpster shooting,
where it's the you're a bit, you won't do it.

(01:06:06):
They're angry over They're angry over a business dealing. You
wronged me, No, you wronged me, you owe me, No,
you owe me that kind of thing, or somebody's in
somebody else's territory, whether or not it's drug related or
gun related, those.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Kind of things.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
Especially, So the criminal element is the stupid people. But
then we put them at a bar or strip club
at one to three o'clock in the morning, then we
have the stupid times and stupid places element, and you
com bind those and you get you get a real
ship storm, which is which is why when people ask
me about bars and stuff, I'll say, yeah, don't go

(01:06:41):
to this one, don't go to that one, don't go
to that one. Good lord, don't pay those women to
tease you, they're all a bunch of there are all
a bunch of drug addicts, and they're you know, if
you if you look at them and in light other
than ten loomin black.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Light, you'll you'll you'll want to bathe in hand sanitizer.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
Yeah, but I'll have friends who aren't, who aren't in
my area, like hey, let's go to a bar. So
I'm like, now, now, if we're let's let's let's hang
out behind my house and have a little campfire and
you know, sip on something as opposed to violating the
stupid places, stupid times rules. And that's not even from

(01:07:18):
a law enforcement perspective. That's just a having learned, let's say,
by osmosis the hard way, having dealt with all those
kind of situations, learning what not to do, and thankfully,
when I was younger, the the kind of the kind
of stupid places, stupid time stuff myself and my friends
group did. We're kind of the nerdy, the nerdy kind

(01:07:40):
as opposed to the get tickets or go to jail kind.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
So well, there's something to be said also that's not
necessarily considered and talking about the law enforcement side, we're
the ones that get called into those it's a stupid
place and it's a stupid time. What was the third one,
stupid people? Yeah, with the stupid people. Yeah, and that

(01:08:04):
is primarily what, not always what we do. But that's
a good chunk of our job. And so I remember
having co workers starting their shift and talking about, man,
I want to get into a shooting or a man
I want to ruin someone's life, or man I want
to make an arrest. No, I would personally, I don't

(01:08:26):
want to ruin someone's life. I don't want to be
in a shooting. Off duty. I don't want to get
in a shooting. And I would not be surprised if
there are non law enforcement that get ready in the
morning and put on their carry piece and say, man
I hope I get in a gunfight today. That is
a bad way to start the day. That you're just

(01:08:50):
you're just inviting bad outcomes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:55):
Yeah, So when we talk about that kind of stuff,
we talk about physiology for a second.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:02):
By by having that mindset, you're establishing neural pathways. And
you know, so I've people make fun of me for
it in my department and sort of related departments, But uh,
I don't like the term muscle memory, because muscles don't
have memory.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
It's neural pathways.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
You're establishing motor motor pattern recruitment, motor pattern generators, that
kind of stuff. But that also is very much a
thing when it comes to actions, not not just not
just how do I draw the gun? How do I
present the gun? Where are my tools? It's it's not
just that, it's the it's the mindset. And if you

(01:09:41):
if you put on a set of leal lethal and
less lethal tools, whether you're law enforcement or not, and
you say, all right, today's the day you're establishing that pattern.
That and if we had a lawyer here, the lawyer
would probably say premeditation, that that, hey, today's day where

(01:10:03):
I'm going to go use this thing. Like guns are
cool tools, right, they have a very specific purpose, but
aside from a hunting context, I have not, and knock
on wood, I hope I will never have to use
one on a human. I know people who have. I
know people who have multiple times, and no one's happy

(01:10:24):
they had to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
I'm really glad to hear you say that about muscle memory.
I'm so sick of that term of it. Yeah, muscles,
no muscles, do not have memory, but yeah, we have these.
We do have these pre determined neural pathways or these
trails that we've cut through the forest so to speak,
that get a little wider each time we use them,
until eventually it's a highway, until eventually it's a freeway.

(01:10:50):
And when we continuously use that same neural pathway or
that trail, that's the one that we can turn easily,
turn that into the default if we're not cautious. And
you know so that that also goes to things such
as you know, posturing and.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Physical stance and physical movements. And again, I know people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Are probably sick to death of hearing me say this,
but I'm telling you this anybody who will listen, please,
this is not my opinion, it's just a fact. In
most of America, when you leave your home, you are
on we're up usually about two cameras at any given time.

(01:11:33):
If you're in a public place, you're most likely to
be on at least three or more cameras. And how
you stand, how you posture, how you move your body,
where you put your hands, all of them, clothing, what
kind of clothing you wear. But you know, even if
there's no sound, the interaction between you and the other
person will be viewed by let's stop and think about

(01:11:56):
that that filter again, that funnel, you know, sifter, as
I mentioned, you know, so it's going to be viewed
by probably at least one or two patrol officers unseen,
it'll be viewed by investigators, and it'll be viewed by
somebody at the DA's office, and then eventually it's going
to be viewed by a judge and or a jury.
And you know, one doesn't have to be an expert

(01:12:20):
in kinesics and human body language. I mean, you can
have a guy that's an underwater welder. You can have
a you know, some church lady, you can have a librarian,
you know, a school teacher, truck driver, and they can
all watch how those posturing, how that posturing and those
interactions between these two people and this video go, and
they can read it. They can read it just as

(01:12:40):
surely as we can watch Animal Planet and read the
posturing and interactions between other primates. They can and they
don't have to be experts to see who, in fact
was the primary aggressor or was it a mutual act
of aggression or was it a mutually combative situation. So
you mentioned defensive mindsets. Let me just say a couple

(01:13:02):
things before I forget it. If you open somebody else's
door on their car to continue a conflict, you have
just become the primary aggressor. I don't care what the
guy said to you, your daughter, or your wife. If
you have to walk up to somebody's car and open
the damn door to say something to him, you're in
the wrong. If he's moving away from you, even when

(01:13:28):
he's saying the most vile and disgusting stuff you can imagine,
and you're the one moving towards him, you have just,
by default become the primary aggressor.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
And so keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
How is your behavior going to look on camera on
three different cameras two twelve people that you've never met
before in your life. That stuff matters a lot, as
well as any witnesses.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Oh buddy, let me tell you. Yeah, and they may
be seeing you might be wearing a blue shirt and
there he was wearing a green shirt, right, yeah, a
palaeontologists again.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
Yeah, Hey, Doug, why don't you mention the whole idea
of a jury of your peers and the likelihood that
anybody who was watching the show will ever make it
to your jury.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
No way.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
Let me just say right now, I would bet a
tremendous amount of money that anyone watching the show will
never be selected for a jury ever. Uh the odds
of that happening are very, very, very slim.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
Uh. Yeah, I've been selected for have you yeah book.
They knew, they knew that I'm background and active law enforcement.
Well and like a barking dog call what was it? No, no, no,
it was it was a protective order violation? Oh wow?
And the defense attorney knows me. Oh okay.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
Well, you know there's always the exception, you know, every
now and then, you know, we win the lottery every
now and then.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Yeah, but again, let me just assure you that, uh,
no complaints. I enjoyed it. I am glad. I want
to be on a jury so bad, you know. I mean,
I've never been on one. I really really want to
be on one. I don't want to be the form
and I just want to be on one.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
But the fact of the matter is, uh, anywhere in America,
anywhere in America could be you know, playing Vanilla, Iowa,
on any coastal city you want.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
You want to choose the the the.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
Odds of them picking twelve quote unquote normal, average everyday
Americans to be on your jury. That's that may or
may not happen. Uh, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
And each of those people bring their own biases and
preconceived notions and ignorance to that to that situation, and

(01:15:41):
we don't get we don't we don't get to choose it. Again,
your attorney can have some influence on strikes and saying no,
we don't want this person or whatever, but not always.
And so people get on your jury and I'm not
I'm not being hateful and I'm not being derogatory. I'm
being factual. You will It is absolutely possible to have

(01:16:02):
somebody in your jury who is illiterate. It is absolutely
possible to have a person on your jury who has
a serious drug problem, who's a high school dropout.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Uh, they may not have a you know, serious criminal background,
but you just there's just no way of knowing. And
so you are not going I just please trust me
on this. You're not going to have a jury that
is comprised of people with their robust background in military

(01:16:33):
and law enforcement or self defense or shooting or combatives
or jiu jitsu or or you know, usually not even
things such as conflict management or mediation.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
It's just not going to happen. I mean they're not
they're just.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46):
Not even somebody married to somebody in that background. If
that's correct. You're nice, Yes, that's one hundred percent right.
They don't want any of that. So yeah, it's not
going to be a jury of your peers.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
It's just not.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
If that does happen, you've gotten very lucky. But don't
rely on that happening.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
We'll just say a quick and dirty no percentages for this,
but you need to plan on probably somebody over sixty
five years old, probably retired, because they're the people that
have the time to not get out of jury dirty.
You'd be thinking about how your behavior is going to
be seen by the sixty five year old woman who
attends church Wednesday and Sunday nights. And while you may

(01:17:32):
not be afraid to drop an F bomb here there,
and that's kind of a thing that's no longer raises
much social ire in her world.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
Well that actually goes to another I had a sentimental
bullet points that didn't write them down.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Go ahead, but before we.

Speaker 4 (01:17:49):
Jump out of jury selection. So there's kind of a
joke when it comes to comes to juries. And I'm
not saying this to insult anyone who's served on a jury. Okay,
it's insulting toward Map, but everyone else, anyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Who watches this, I know where it's going. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:18:06):
So there's a very very very small subset of people
who get selected for jury duty who are actually interested
in serving on a jury, and the rest of the people.
Kind of the joke is they're either too stupid or
too lazy to get on jury duty.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
Yep. Right, that's a joke.

Speaker 4 (01:18:19):
And I'm not saying that's literally the case, but that's
the joke.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Well, every stereotype has a kernel of truth to it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:27):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that that's probably one applicable to
you know, roughly a third of the members of the.

Speaker 4 (01:18:36):
Jury, probably it probably, but there's a so Doug kind
of touched on it with strikes and everything. There's a
process called var deere. It's spelled it's spelled v O
I R D I r E and it's pronounced wardere
and it's Latin for I think it's to seek the truth.
I think is what is what it means uh, and
that process is used. So there are several different vor

(01:18:59):
deer process that are used during various trials, whether it's
for jury selection or qualifying someone as an expert witness,
or or various other steps. But when it comes to
jury specifically, there's a questioning aspect that happens with each juror,
and it's do you know any of the involved parties?

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (01:19:18):
Do you have a bias one way or another? Have
you been arrested before? If so, what have you been
arrested for? Have you ever had any legal dealings with
this particular civil case? Because if you if you whether
or not you're a law enforcement officer, if you shoot somebody,
you're going to be sued civilly, whether or not your

(01:19:39):
law enforcement officer, And then it's going to be up
to the courts to determine whether or not whether or
not the suit has cause to move forward, and if
it does have costs to move forward. What happens once
it does. But so so with with all that going on,
you have to you have to think there's there's a
lot of steps in the process, and your attorney can

(01:20:02):
kind of push on the rudder a little bit, but
just a little bit, right.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Yeah, John, I'm sorry, Matt, go ahead. Oh, I was
just going to say when I served on when I
served as a jury member, there was one person who
we're completely going off of emotion, and they kept on
focusing on one aspect that was not on trial. And

(01:20:32):
we're not talking about custody. We're we're talking about a
protective order violation, black and white, and this person could
not understand that, and they protested and protested, and I
had to explain, this is what's going on. This is
what we're discussing here. We're not talking about whether someone's
a good parent. We're not talking about this or that.

(01:20:54):
We are only talking about this one little tiny facet
of the big picture. And that one person could have
thrown everything she because she was trying to convince everyone
else just like, no, that's not what we're here to
talk about. But behind the scenes in that room, there

(01:21:15):
was we don't have attorneys or we don't have anyone
helping guide. I was it, but you were the voice
of reason that I was trying to buy us. It
should Hey, it was righteous. It was righteous.

Speaker 4 (01:21:31):
So a couple more things about juries that that just
kind of came to mind where we're talking about that
with them with emotions and everything. So there are specific
jury instructions which are given before and after a trial, right,
and those instructions are agreed upon by the prosecution and
the defense, or by both sides of a matter. If

(01:21:55):
it's a non criminal matter, those instructions can really help
you or really hurt you. And those instructions in that
those instructions every single time are going to say, you,
as a jury member, are a finder of fact. It
is up to you to determine the credibility of the witnesses,

(01:22:15):
the credibility of the documentation, anything else that might be presented.
In this case, the attorneys are there only to provide
guidance and help and help say, hey, this person is
providing information. So all this stuff people see on TV
where the attorneys are going back and forth and you know,

(01:22:36):
the you can't handle the truth and all that crap,
all of that, the jury is given instructions to not
listen to those arguments. But the thing is they're going
to listen to that because they're human. If I was
sitting in that jury, even knowing what I know, if
I was sitting in that jury, how could I say

(01:22:57):
with one hundred percent certainty that one of the attorney
couldn't swaye me with an argument that hits me just right.
Even though neither attorney is a presenter effect, they're just
there to help guide the guide the story and interpret
and it's it's up to the witnesses and documentation to
provide the facts. But like you were saying, that there

(01:23:17):
could be a jury member that that focuses on one
particular aspect which really hits them from an emotional standpoint,
and it could really tie things up, then that could
be in your favor or could.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
Do David is one hundred correct. So I recently worked
as an expert witness on a self defense shooting case
in the Gulf Coast of Texas, ugly ugly shooting involving
a not going into a lot of detail, the yeah,

(01:23:50):
so shoot e dead guy by any any measure, is
just a violentminal thug with a stolen glock pistol with
the glock switch on it. Shooter is forty something year
old male, also with a bit of a checkered past,

(01:24:15):
but no violent crime, no recent criminal history, waded into
a situation in which he legitimately was concerned about the
safety of his family members, as I would have been myself.
It turns into a touch and go gunfight, just a
straight up, straight up gunfight between two guys, and one

(01:24:37):
guy wins and the other guy doesn't. There were, again,
as David was saying, typical of any court in America,
very extensive and very detailed jury instructions at the end
of that trial.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
And there was a.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
There was a doctor that was on the jury. I
will say that without going into specifics about what country
he was from. He is an American citizen.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
He is not.

Speaker 1 (01:25:08):
He is a recent American citizen from a different country,
a very very very different country, and not a Western
European country. And he had his own thoughts and ideas
on things, and I didn't. I was just shocked to
find out that. So the jury deliberations went on for

(01:25:28):
a long time, I mean several days, as long as
I've ever seen. I was very surprised to find out
that the original votes on that were nine in favor
of acquittal. But this particular individual disc doctor was very forceful,
and he was very apparently charismatic, and also was a

(01:25:50):
bit of a bully, and over the course of about
three days that one individual jurer was able to turn
the jury around, and eventually they became deadlocked. Sent notes
to the judge saying that we're hopelessly deadlocked. The judge said,
keep working on it. Continue working on it. They did,

(01:26:13):
and to send another note back. We've had one more
vote change, but we're still deadlocked. So well, then you're
making progress. Continue to work. And what we learned later
after it was over was that despite all the objections
and the in fact.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
There was literally almost a fist fight. It was so bad.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
There was almost a fist fight to the point that
the judge said, Okay, all of y'all need to go
walk around the courthouse grounds to cool off, you know,
and may let's follow them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:41):
That's how bad it was, go to the playground area
of the court effectively.

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):
Yeah, And so the two holdouts are like, okay, fine,
we will agree to find the guy guilty, but you
have to agree to give him the least possible, the
lowest possible sends. Okay, so we're going to givehim the
lowest sentence he can get if we agree to find

(01:27:05):
him guilty. And so that's what they did. And so
you started out with nine people who thought he was innocent,
and three days later they ended up agreeing unanimously to
find the guy guilty. And because he had a pre
existing burglary conviction from twenty years ago, guess what his
sentence is. It's twenty five years minimum. He's going to

(01:27:28):
prison for twenty five years. And so that that is
not a fluke, that is not some anomaly. That is
a case I worked on earlier this year right here.
So that's that's a real world example of what can happen.
I have a side question, completely unrelated, involving.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
The glock switch. Yeah was he using was it in
fal auto as he was using it?

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
Actually, no, it was not, surprisingly he No, it was.
He had flipped to Semiauto at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:28:00):
Fun fact about block switches. When they're broken, and a
lot of times they're broken, the gun will.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Not go full onto. Oh is that right? I didn't
know that. Yeah, so it's a safety feature. Yeah, I only.

Speaker 4 (01:28:13):
Have freaking revolvers around me right now, I could get
alo and show you exactly switch. Well, he's a couple,
I'm and I have a couple legally. Yeah yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
One sect be ricked. Okay, this is great. You know what,
you know, what's really bad too. During that trial, I
pointed out that that's a glock switch on the back
of the stolen glock that the dead guy had, and
I let the defense attorney know, hey, ask the detective
what is that device on the end of the slide,

(01:28:49):
And that detective did everything possible to not admit that
it was a switch which would render the pistol, turn
the pistol into a full auto weapon. And then when
he was finally forced to admit that, then he relied
on his military experience saying, it doesn't make any full
out of fire, is no more dangerous than semiato semiato.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
In fact, it's much more dangerous, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:29:10):
So okay, I mean it's just it's just yeah, yeah,
but you know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
You're saying the odds of a wrong conviction are not zero.
They're not zero. They're not zero. No, they're not okay,
So glocknurdery Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
So the way a backplate switch works, and I've literally
done this with JB. Well, it doesn't last super long,
but so essentially this right here is your disconnector right,
so you have your sear surface where my fingers touching
and then here on the other side of your disconnector,
which causes the cruciform here to reset and pop off

(01:29:52):
of your sear surface until you release the trigger. Right so,
in order to make a glock shoot full auto high
atf this is common knowledge, so on everything's reversed. Sorry,
So right here, if you have a piece of metal
or a piece of JB weld or anything firm enough

(01:30:16):
to cause the cruciform after it drags on this surface
to press down and allow the cock striker to release
that as long as you hold the tugger down as
the as the gun goes into lock up, that little
surface right there, and it has to be a certain
length and a certain height in order to hit the
cruciform properly, will cause that striker to drop as it

(01:30:40):
as it reaches lock up, and it will cause the
gun to continue to fire as long as the trigger
is held back.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Wow. Okay, so a little bit of glock nerdery for
you there, nic.

Speaker 4 (01:30:50):
But the thing is in those in switches. What the
switch actually does is that little piece that sticks down.
So there's a switch that has a plunger, and as
you push the plunger, it has a canning surface which
pushes that metal piece out and causes it to extend
enough that it interacts with the cruciform as the slide shots.

(01:31:13):
So if the switch is broken, as in it doesn't
have the detent to hold the canning surface in place,
it will not hold that little piece out, so we'll
not call it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
It won't it up. Okay, that makes sense, Okay, so
complete side whatever, Dave, what are you going to make
special slides that just have that little piece? So the
thing is you can.

Speaker 4 (01:31:39):
You can take a regular black backplate and a paper clip,
a thick enough paper clip get out and some super
glue or JB weld if you know the correct dimensions
and wall flora blah wow.

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
And with that in mind, I'm going to agree with
the detective talking about lethality. It's not create any not
more dangerous in full auto. I personally wouldn't have much
use for it. Would it be fun? Absolutely? Yeah? But
I'd rather have it in twenty two right? Yeah? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:32:12):
And so glock forty four works the same way. Yeah,
absolutely works the same way. Just make sure you have
high enough power twenty two M to cycle it properly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:25):
Hey, So I want to ask both John and David,
your agencies or your experience in your post shooting protocols.
So let's say you had an officer agent get into
a shooting, did your agency have a practice or policy
of putting another officer with the officer who was involved

(01:32:47):
in the shooting, just not necessarily to kind of control anything,
but just to sort of be with him or her, frankly,
to make sure they don't say any to say or
do anything stupid. Just sort of a companion and they're
not involved in the investigation, but just somebody to be
sort of be, you know, accompany them, sit in the
car with them, walking.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
Through the process. Have you ever heard of anything like that,
and you'll do that.

Speaker 3 (01:33:12):
I've heard the phrase battle buddy before kind of situation.

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
But that was always kind of easy with us.

Speaker 3 (01:33:20):
I know that we had guys under state because we
were federal, but we had state laws and a lot of
times respect there were certain you could go through training
with the state to be recognized as like a peer counselor,
and that was not supposed to be That was basically
supposed to be privileged protective communications. What we were told
is that it was privileged under state law, but not

(01:33:40):
under federal discovery. So no official policy there.

Speaker 4 (01:33:44):
Yeah, yeah, say, no official policy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
So we had an official policy of that, so you know,
the officer could designate someone to sit with them in
the immediate aftermath.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Of the shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
But it was also understood that they would not talk
about the shooting itself, wouldn't talk about the facts of
the shooting. But effectively though, they're there to make sure, hey,
you need some water, you need this, you need that,
but also to make sure that they keep their mouth
shut just don't say or do anything that is foolish

(01:34:19):
and stupid, because they.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
Are attorneys on the way.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
You know, obviously you're going to have two concurrent investigations.
You're going to have or parallel investigations. You'll have the
criminal investigation and the internal investigation that begin almost immediately.
And I don't know where we got that from. I
think further west. I don't know, if you know it's
a California thing or West of the Mississippi thing. I'm

(01:34:44):
not sure, but I know there's many other agencies in
western states that do that. In my experience, it was very,
very valuable because you know, you can have a person
that is typically introverted and and you know, really not
very not very talkative, but in the violent act, I

(01:35:07):
mean after a violent you know, incident, in the aftermath
of that incident, can be experiencing all manner of emotions
and you know different you know, mental processes and say
all kinds of things, almost a stream of consciousness, just
trying to dump dump this energy. And I think anybody
who's ever been in argument, we know with their spouse
knows that. You know, again, when you when you have

(01:35:29):
high emotions, you can say things that are foolish and
that you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
Don't actually mean.

Speaker 1 (01:35:34):
I think the same thing probably applies in the post
shooting environment, not just for police officers, but for private citizens.
And I guess that's the point of my question. Citizens
don't typically think about that ahead of time. They don't
think that they might have verbal diarrhea in the aftermath
of a shooting, but quite often they do. And I've
been on multiple scenes where police officers had to tell

(01:35:56):
a private citizen shut up, I'm trying to help you
stop talking.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Done it myself a number of times.

Speaker 4 (01:36:04):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, So what are you all thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
As far as for the viewers, you think people need
to be aware of that you may find yourself just.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
You stop talking. You have the right to remain silent.
I exercised you to, Yeah, exactly. So.

Speaker 4 (01:36:23):
I have seen some people who carry firearms or practice
martial arts or whatnot have contacted an attorney to have
them on a retainer in case something happens. Or there's
of course there's carry shield and law shield and other
various insurances which are kind of catered around a private

(01:36:43):
citizen who carries a firearm. And I have seen that
there are some companies which actually provide a business card.
These are the actions to take. And we talked earlier
to kind of tie into what you and I were
talking about earlier, Doug. Where that where we make those

(01:37:03):
mental reps and we establish a trickle to a roar
to a highway. Hey, these are the if God forbid
the worst ever happens, these are the steps I need to.

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
Take right right. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:37:17):
And I've had a couple of people, uh, no one,
no one who actually fired a shop, but a couple
of people who brandished a firearm who had a card,
and they're like, listen, I want to cooperate. I was
given this card. It has instructions on what I'm supposed
to do, and I don't want to make a statement

(01:37:38):
without a lawyer. President, It's like, awesome, do you need
medical coverage? Do you like do you need medical attention?
Do you need anything else that is not me taking
a statement from you? And you know, because when they
say that, it's say, okay, you have you have taken
the time to say, these are the steps I need
to take if the worst happens. And I appreciate you've

(01:38:01):
done that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
The only the only thing I have to chime in
there with is that I've had several pass balls. But
one of the better ones when we finally got around
revapping the agency's post incident policies as far as that goes,
because we really screwed at least one up before that.
One of thing great things that was done was we
just had literally a laminated card and you were supposed

(01:38:25):
to keep your uniform pocket. It's like, you know, it
basically had the public safety questions you need to ask
that you're going to be almost compelled to ask. But
it was just like a quick guide because some of
the problem is depending on where you work, I mean,
you don't have that many ois is how many do
you respond to that sort of a thing. So having
some kind of like physically on your person way to
make sure you're doing the right things. I guess a

(01:38:47):
checklist for a lack of better words, seems to be
a pretty solid idea.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:38:53):
So again, the way I sometimes try to explain, especially
if people have no experience in law enforce the way
I try to explain it to some people is that
both cities, counties, agencies, police departments are like human beings.
They all have their own individual personalities, and you can

(01:39:17):
have two of them that are identical in every way
as far as demographics, budgets, personnel, geography, whatever, and yet
have very very different personalities and a very different protocol,
a very different value system to a certain extent. And
so I mean, I can tell just by the way

(01:39:37):
David's talking and what he's saying that they clearly respect
it when people say things like, hey, I want to
help you, but you know, I don't want to make
a statement with that an attorney present at the same time.
I mean, I've consulted on some cases where I'm watching
the video of seasoned detectives who are being told hey,
I by a person who's not frankly just not being

(01:39:58):
a dick. They're just saying, hey, I I want to
help you, but I really would rather wait until my
attorney gets here before I make any statement. And then
the detective you know, bows up, you know, traps come
up and you know, and they're like, well, I or
the patrol officers in this one particular case, the patrol
officer is like, hey, he's already asked for an attorney.

(01:40:18):
He says his attorney is on the way. He doesn't
want to talk to anybody until an attorney gets here.
And the detective says something like, and I'm paraphrasing here, well,
he didn't have to make a statement, but I can
make a statement. I can ask him any goddamn question
I want to, you know. And then they go and
you're like.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
Oh my god, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
And they go up there and they start, you know,
kind of haranguing and you know, sort of like pressuring
the guy, and this is wrong, this is not how
you're supposed to do it. But guess what, as of
three months ago, I watched a video right here so
that occurred in twenty twenty five of a detective doing
that exact same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:41:00):
Okay, so it does still happen.

Speaker 4 (01:41:03):
And the thing is those officers for those agencies they
clearly don't know about and the name of the case
is escaping me right now, but they don't know about
case law to where an officer I don't remember what
their rank was, but they were having a conversation with

(01:41:24):
somebody after they had been read a Miranda warning and
were in custody. Oh yeah, so a Miranda warning. For
anyone who's watching this who doesn't know, it's like the
police show reading someone the rights. You have the right
to remain silent, You have the right to an attorney,
You have the right to have ham or her with
you are being questioned, you don't have to answer any
questions if you don't want to, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):
Et cetera.

Speaker 4 (01:41:46):
So this this person undarrests, had been read miranda, they
were under arrest, and they were having a conversation and
the police officer, I don't want to say, we're having
a leading conversation, but they weren't directly questioning the person
about the crime, right, But the person then made a

(01:42:07):
statement about the crime they used to get a conviction,
and it went either to state or or the Federal
Supreme Court right that it still counts as custodial interrogation
even if you are not directly asking questions about the crime, right. So,

(01:42:28):
and and that's that's something that's something that a lot
of people just just don't realize. Hey, if the person says,
I understand what my rights are and I don't want
to talk to you, and you do that that TV
detective thing where you're like, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):
Going to put them in the box and sweat them. Yeah, yeah,
it does.

Speaker 4 (01:42:45):
It doesn't work that way. You can't torture someone into
a confession. That's not that's not how the law is
supposed to work.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):
Right And Yet, and yet I've been retained in a
case where that's exactactly what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
And now they're going to have to work through.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
All of that while this is so, and I have
no doubt that eventually that the courts are going to
find that this interrogation and that's what it was. It
wasn't even an interview. It was just an interrogation. I mean,
like a face in you know, like oh my god, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
You know, like coming into the car.

Speaker 1 (01:43:20):
Interrogation was inappropriate and unlawful. And so my point to
that story is it's very rare, it's exceptional, but it
does still occur in some jurisdictions. And so the phrase
that I like to teach people or I like to
share rather and I didn't come up with this, I

(01:43:42):
picked it up from several attorneys kind of piecemeiled it together,
is if you can remember citizens, if you can remember,
if you can keep your head when things are really
tough and they're really uncertain. What I like to tell
people is this is just say I want to help you,

(01:44:04):
I want to do the right thing, and I will
do anything you ask as soon as my attorney gets here.
And then you just repeat yourself. I mean, just a mantra,
you repeat it. I want to help you, I want
to do the right thing, and I will do anything
you ask as soon as my attorney gets here. Are
you refusing to cooperate, No, sir, No, sir, I am

(01:44:27):
not refusing to cooperate.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
I want to cooperate. I want to help you, I
want to do the right thing.

Speaker 1 (01:44:33):
I will do anything you ask as soon as my
attorney gets here. And let them show that to a
jury that you say in that that you're agreeing to
cooperate and you'll do whatever he asked you to do
as soon as your attorney gets there. But do not
say anything else about what occurred after the fact. You know,

(01:44:53):
I agree with Messada you completely with regard to saying
the basic facts of what occurred. You know, he attacked
me with a knife or he can't, you know, I mean,
I'm kind of being a smart ass here. He was
coming right for me. But you know, say, you know
he yeah, right, so you get it. Let's see somebody
gets my references. But you know, hey, he did this,

(01:45:13):
he did that, he pulled a gun or you know,
he had a knife, whatever, and.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
You know, then I you know, at that point, you
know I fired, he stopped.

Speaker 1 (01:45:22):
I stopped, and then I called nine one one, and
then you're done.

Speaker 2 (01:45:26):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
That's that's good enough to establish, you know, a reason
for why you feel like you had to use deadly force.

Speaker 4 (01:45:33):
Could I make a comment about that, yes?

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):
Please? Okay, So.

Speaker 4 (01:45:39):
On the cops side, you can't do whatever you want
and say it was for officer safety. On the citizens side,
on the non cop side, you can't do whatever you
want and then say I was in fear of my life.

Speaker 2 (01:45:52):
That's it, right.

Speaker 4 (01:45:53):
So both of those statements are things you should never
say because they've been over said, yes incorrect manners. So
it's kind of like it's one of those things that
when one of us who's been around for a while,
here's it, and that's all the person's saying. Really, well,
you know what you're full of. It don't smell very good,

(01:46:14):
that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:46:15):
So I worked on a very high profile case here
in Texas, a very I'm not going to say which
one it is, but trust me, all of you know
which one it is. And the guy called nine one one,
And if he said it once, I'm not exaggerating. If
he said it once, he said it twenty five times

(01:46:36):
to on nine one one. I was in fear for
my life and that's why I shot him. And then
he said the exact same words again, I was in
fear for my life and that's why I shot him.
And he said it over and over and over, and
guess what, Vidiao, excuse me, guess what audio the prosecution
played in court and the jury was like, my god,

(01:46:57):
he I mean, how many times? How many more times
are he going to say it? I mean, you could
tell and nobody believed it. Nobody. They just didn't believe it.
They thought it was rehearsed, they thought it was contrived,
they felt that it was Yeah, that it was just
it was fake. I don't know what else to say.
So David is one hundred percent right. You need to

(01:47:17):
be logical as best you can be. Obviously you're going
to be it's going to be a very ugly situation.
Your emotions will be hot, You're gonna have a cascade
of you know of chemicals in your body and your brain.
But please do your best to be logical. Make a
simple statement and then stop talking at that point. But
if you say I was in a fear for.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
My life, that's not going to be good enough.

Speaker 1 (01:47:38):
You need to artriculate a little bit and then stop.

Speaker 4 (01:47:42):
Yeah, when it comes to people talk about adrenaline dumps
and things like that, I think everyone who might everyone
who's going to watch this either has been in a
car crash or has been in a near miss in
a car, right, and the feeling you get and I'm
talking about a minor car crash, not something where people
get injured and all that kind of stuff. But because
that's way higher level of oh crap. But that where

(01:48:07):
you almost get into a car crash, or you get
into a minor car crash where your heart rate increases,
you say things and you're like, why am I saying that?

Speaker 2 (01:48:15):
That's stupid?

Speaker 4 (01:48:15):
I shouldn't be saying that. All of those kind of
things which happen if you get involved with somebody in
any sort of deadly forced situation, whether it's with a
gun or a baseball bat or a knife or I mean, hell,
you know, sometimes sometimes people get run over with cars too,
So any of those kind of things. Think about the

(01:48:37):
feelings you have when you get into that minor car
crash and you freak out, or you almost get into
a car crash and you freak out right. Think about
those emotions and then just multiply them one hundredfold. And
that's that's kind of a good basis of comparison. I believe, yes,
literally one hundredfold. Literally, it's that bad. I mean, sometimes

(01:49:01):
people have a difficult time getting words, basic words and
explanations out. Sometimes they forget what direction they we're moving
or traveling from. You know, I've seen people point to
the store it says seven to eleven on it, and
they can't say what the damn name of the store is.
That's just it, that's just that's common. These are common
reactions that you have in the incident, in a post incident,

(01:49:23):
and people who are regular citizens on a road they
are on every day of their life, and you ask
them which way is their house, they point their own direction, yes,
one hundred percent. Oh my god, I've seen that a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
Yeah. Yeah, not sure.

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
Where the hell they're going or where they're coming from,
you know, So all of this is very difficult to
keep in mind.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
We're sitting here telling you.

Speaker 1 (01:49:45):
What to say or what not to say, how to behave,
and what not to do in this aftermath when you're
probably going to be operating with almost like a lizard
or a monkey brain and maybe maybe not all of
your higher order thinking. So it's easy for us to
sit hear and tell you all this. It's you know,

(01:50:08):
it's so difficult to recall or remember all of this,
but it's exceptionally dangerous. It is again, depending on your jurisdiction,
depending on who your police department is, depending on who
your prosecutor is, you could find yourself in very dangerous waters.
They may or may not be supportive. This may come
as a shock to many viewers, But there are in

(01:50:31):
fact some jurisdictions where the DA doesn't actually fully believe
in the concept of self defense with the firearm that
I know that sounds shocking, but there are some places
that are like that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:44):
You can expound on that further. So Utah very gun friendly. Yeah,
it's typically guns and conservative values kind of go together.
Traditionally in Utah it is primarily red conservative. But there's
this little area in the middle, Yeah, Salt Lake, and

(01:51:06):
it's it's rather blue. As a Utah resident, if I'm
carrying a firearm and I get into something, some kind
of an altercation or I have to use my firearm
and it's in Salt Lake, where are the jury? Where
is this jury going to come from? Right? Is it
going to come from where I'm living? Or is it
going to come from the area where it occurred? Additionally,

(01:51:28):
where what's the prosecution like over there compared to where
I'm at versus and much more left leaning, not as
gunfriendly where the incident occurred. Things to consider, because this.

Speaker 4 (01:51:44):
Is real that goes that goes right back into your
more likely more likely to win the lottery than you
are to have truly a jury of your peers.

Speaker 1 (01:51:52):
Yes, absolutely, I know this sounds very cynical, were jaded,
But I don't even know David, and we're both one
hundred percent of the because we've both clearly seen the
same things.

Speaker 4 (01:52:06):
Yeah, and we're we're almost opposite ends of the country.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):
I'm in WV.

Speaker 1 (01:52:10):
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, listen, I'm not being again,
I'm not being uh, you know, I'm not trying to
be insulting, but i mean, look, sometimes you go down
there and look at the jury pool, you know, the
larger pool. I mean, it's almost a freak show. You know,

(01:52:30):
It's like, oh my god, is this what they're going
to draw these people from. Yeah, and the answer to
that is yes, Doug, they are.

Speaker 2 (01:52:38):
Yeah. The twelve people who will decide your future.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
Are going to come from this group of people.

Speaker 2 (01:52:43):
That are in this room right here. They just drove
to Walmart picked up people from Aisle six. Yes, here
they are.

Speaker 1 (01:52:49):
That's not too far of a stretch, Matt, It's really not. Hey,
you mentioned something earlier. I can't remember which one of
you mentioned that, but about the older people that tip
that often typically serve on juries, I'd like to view Okay,
I like the juries. Excuse me that the viewers to

(01:53:10):
really understand that especially applies to grand juries. Uh, and
for any of the viewers that may not be familiar
with that, you sort of have a two tier process there.
Grand jury decides if you should stand trial if there's
enough probable cause that yeah, this should probably proceed to
an actual trial jury. So it's a again, it's a

(01:53:31):
filtered process there.

Speaker 4 (01:53:33):
So hey, Doug, would you could you expand on what
you mean by whether probable cause exists, because that's that's
a concept that probably a lot of people might not
one hundred percent understand.

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
Oh my god, Well, it's get it can get a
little murky.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):
It should be that based on the facts.

Speaker 1 (01:53:50):
And circumstances described, uh, that there is it's more than
just mere reasonable suspicion that there's probable cost to believe
that this person did in fact commit this offense. It
doesn't mean that we know beyond a reasonable doubt that
they did it. It means that more likely than not,
we tend to believe that that this they probably committed this. However,

(01:54:12):
as a grand jury, we're not going to make a
finding a fact on it. We're simply saying we're going
to lean this direction to say more likely than not,
this probably occurred. I think it's time for us to
move this on to a trial jury and let them
hear all of the evidence, see all of the facts,
look at all the testimony, and then they will decide

(01:54:33):
whether or not, beyond a reasonable doubt, this thing actually occurred.
So again, it's that it's that fork in the road moment.
So you have twelve people, and grand juries are not
just a one off thing to typically serve for you know,
weeks or even months at a time, depending on your jurisdiction.
And in every case where I have ever testified in

(01:54:57):
front of a grand jury, I would say the average
a age of the grand jury is probably around sixty,
you know, a.

Speaker 2 (01:55:04):
Little bit older.

Speaker 1 (01:55:05):
Uh, more time on their hands, you know, you know,
and you just never know. But your comments about you know,
the nice church lady that's on that's on the grand jury.

Speaker 2 (01:55:19):
So let me assure.

Speaker 1 (01:55:20):
You you need to be careful about the kind of
profanity that you use during an incident. Okay, there's a
huge difference, and I think the shipworks guys cover this
pretty well, but there's a big difference betwe between saying
back the f up versus back up mother effort, right,

(01:55:42):
a huge difference. And and uh, but but you know,
and I look, I use more profanity than I should,
but I recommend that when the stakes are high, you minimize,
actually minimize profanity as much as possible. And then you
speak in a loud and very clear voice and say

(01:56:04):
things such as, I don't want to fight, get back,
get away from me. Do all of that before you
start dropping any F bombs.

Speaker 2 (01:56:13):
I don't know you. That's my purse. Yeah, yeah, yes,
you're not my adult bobby.

Speaker 4 (01:56:20):
So before you get further, I want to talk about
so first of all, statements you make during an incident,
if they do not match your body language, your actions, yes,
the statements don't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:56:34):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (01:56:36):
And then when it comes to grand juries, Yeah, generally speaking,
grand juries unless the prosecutor and the presenting a law
enforcement officer are both entirely unlikable assholes, grand juries. Believe
those people are.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
If Jesus is.

Speaker 4 (01:56:53):
Here, here's the prosecutor and the police officer just below one.
The joke is you can a ham sandwich if you
want to.

Speaker 2 (01:57:01):
Yes, that's the old saying.

Speaker 1 (01:57:04):
I believe that came from a the old New York prosecutor,
like some famous New York prosecutor was talking about you
can lead a jury to invite a ham sandwich.

Speaker 3 (01:57:13):
And it's true. It is absolutely true. Just a couple
other thoughts, just real quick. Just because a grand jury
decides not to proceed does not mean in a lot
of jurisdictions that a prosecutor that gets elected cannot go
back and represent those cases to a grand jury.

Speaker 1 (01:57:35):
That's not civil jeopardy. A lot of people don't know that.
That's a lot And we talked about, right, yeah, I
think i'll throw out there is you mentioned the profanity,
I'll just nerd out here for a second. What most
people don't appreciate is that profanity comes.

Speaker 2 (01:57:52):
From the other side of your brain.

Speaker 3 (01:57:53):
I can't remember which side it originates from, but if
you're using profanity, you are more heavy engaged in the
emotional side of the brain. Most people may not appreciate
the neuroscience of that fact, but most people do appreciate
that if you're slinging f bombs like you're a petty
officer in the Navy or something like that, that you
are not probably the calm, cool, collective, rational actor that

(01:58:18):
they would prefer that you be Again. I wish it
wasn't necessarily that way, but it is as far as
that stuff goes right.

Speaker 1 (01:58:28):
And the nature of the profanity that you use in
regard to the threats or or the statements or warnings
that you make are incredibly important. I cannot emphasize this
enough to anybody listening. There is a huge difference between
saying back to f up or saying I will.

Speaker 2 (01:58:45):
Fuck you up, bitch. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:58:47):
When you start saying that, you have probably just indicted yourself. Okay,
you really have, especially if you're and I'm just being
very blunt here, And if any noybody wants to disagree
with me with on this, feel free to. If you're
dressed like a thug and your body language is similar
to that of somebody from you know, a rap video,

(01:59:11):
and then taken in combination, you know the totality of
the circumstances, the totality of your behavior, your appearance, your
body language. And David said it, when you even when
your statements don't match your body language, you know they're
gonna believe the body language first.

Speaker 2 (01:59:28):
So then look at the way you act, behave.

Speaker 1 (01:59:31):
Walk, talk, posture, and then you say something like that,
you start referring to people as a bitch, You start
referring to people MRF or this, that and the other.
You've just dug yourself a horribly deep hole and you're
going to have a very difficult time getting out of it.
Whereas if you speak to them, even when you're upset,
angry and terrified, if you say things and use the

(01:59:55):
word sir somewhere in there, saying things you know, get
away from me, sir, I don't want to fight you.
I get back, you know, you know, I think, look, hey, everybody, look,
I think he has a gun.

Speaker 2 (02:00:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:00:09):
Saying things like that that gets you a long ways
down the road, a lot further down the road than
it does saying you know, I'm gonna f you walk
a bitch.

Speaker 2 (02:00:16):
Not a good idea to talk like that. It's just
not just like in therapy, you should be using the
phrase I feel I feel yes, yes, When you say
things like that, it makes me feel like, yeah, yeah,
oh here we go. Perfect, perfect, hold on, I gotta

(02:00:36):
throw this. I feel personally yes, yes, perfect, that's it.

Speaker 4 (02:00:41):
Did you see did you see that common response?

Speaker 3 (02:00:49):
I'm just commused to the fact that the show with
all the cops on it. We all have that the
intimate familiarity with how how to engage in proper communications
that comes from marriage counseling.

Speaker 2 (02:00:59):
Yeah, that's funny. That's a good point. You know.

Speaker 1 (02:01:07):
It's sort of a tacit admission in one way or another.

Speaker 2 (02:01:12):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (02:01:14):
Kind of a concept I'd like to present. It's a
concept when I'm when I'm teaching new police officer trainees,
and I think this concept really works well in a
in a dangerous situation too. So if you find yourself
in a dangerous situation and there is any possibility of
talking yourself out of it without violence occurring, it's going

(02:01:36):
to work very similarly to how one of us talk
someone into custody, talk someone down from fighting, all that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:01:43):
You have to sell yourself.

Speaker 4 (02:01:45):
Yeah, and part of how you sell yourself is you
don't use the aggressive language like Doug was talking about.
When you make statements. You make defensive statements like hey,
my bad, even if you're who cares, how mad you are,
who cares how wrong they are, and how right you are.
It's kind of like, hey, that crosswalk says I have

(02:02:06):
the right of way as a pedestrian, which means I'm
legally in the right. Well, if you get smeared by
a car and you can't walk for the rest of
your life, were you really right? Yeah, legally so maybe eaten,
but you're damage the rest of your life now. And
a self defense incident can can be the same way

(02:02:26):
physically or financially. So you want to sell yourself as
a reasonable person.

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (02:02:37):
And the reason why I use the word reasonable is
because that is the standard everyone bases actions off of correct,
because it is not reasonable for us to look at
what you did three years ago based off of statements,
security footage, everything else, and say, well, I would have

(02:02:57):
done X y Z. I wasn't there making that decision
that I had half a second to think about before
I made an action. I have that twenty twenty hindsight,
that ability to say, well, like, gosh, you know, ideally,
these actions I could have taken leading up to this
incident could have prevented it from happening. So therefore you're

(02:03:18):
legally in the wrong. That's not how it works. That's
not how it works for police officers, that's not how
it works for private citizens. So that reasonable person standard
you find yourself in a situation. Hopefully you didn't put
yourself in it, because if you did put yourself in it,
we're out of that reasonable person standard already, correct, But

(02:03:39):
if you find yourself in a terrible situation. Now, for
law enforcement, we are paid to go into those unreasonable situations,
those terrible situations. But when you find yourself in that situation,
what are the actions a reasonable person would take morally
and legally, and you want to try and follow that
path and violence happens, It's it's a it's part of culture. Yeah,

(02:04:06):
it's it's it's unfortunate. I mean, like it's one of
those things. If you know, if I had if I
had my fairy godmother's wand and I could make all
violent acts between humans go away, But it also means
that guns wouldn't exist anymore. Yeah, I'd wave the wand
guns are cool mechanical devices. But if it would mean
that people wouldn't get hurt and killed anymore, absolutely, But

(02:04:27):
that's not real. That's not reality, right, So we have
to think based off of this situation which is occurring,
what are the legal steps I can take? What are
the moral steps I can take? And I'm sure probably
probably everyone who you guys I know for sure, have

(02:04:47):
probably heard something similar to the to the phrase of
ignorance of the law.

Speaker 2 (02:04:52):
Is non excuse.

Speaker 4 (02:04:54):
So most states, like Doug was saying earlier, have very
similar laws when it comes to self defense. Most states
have very similar laws when it comes to when it
comes to defining what criminality is as far as various
types of criminal offenses and whatnot. And that has kind

(02:05:17):
of become it's become a standard by another name, because
there is this thing we all deal with which is
maintained by the FBI and the Fusion Center in every
state called the Interstate Identification Index. It's commonly referred to
as a Triple I or criminal history. And if most
states didn't have decidedly similar laws, and that's the legal term,

(02:05:42):
if I'm remember correctly, is decidedly similar. Essentially, the elements
of the crime are decidedly similar between the two different jurisdictions.
So if all of those things didn't line up, well,
you could go rob banks and Missouri and shoot people
and well, ah, you know, though the wording isn't exact,
so you can come here to my state in West Virginia,

(02:06:04):
and that means that you're no longer a convicted felon.
That's not how it works. And it's very similar for
self defense to a degree. But if you're going to
be in a jurisdiction, you really need to take it
upon yourself to know if castle doctrine exists, whether codified
in law or whether by case law case law, just

(02:06:27):
meaning instead of the instead of the legislature of a
state creating law and voting on it and everything. Through
various criminal and civil cases which have occurred, there's precedence
which has been established in the court system that says, hey,
this is how we need to proceed going forward, which
it has the same effect as a codified law, which

(02:06:49):
is why it's called case law.

Speaker 1 (02:06:50):
Yes, so you know, again there's this misnoware building on that,
there's this misnomer that in Texas is again that just
like this free for all, that wherever you stand is
where you're standing, and that's and you don't have to
ever back up, and you know, stand your ground, and

(02:07:11):
castle law, you know, reign supreme, and you can just
start shooting. And please please let me assure everybody that
it's just not correct. And again that case that I
told you about earlier that the thug with the block switch.
The defendant in that case demanded to testify, which I

(02:07:32):
thought was a horrible idea, but he did, and not
especially articulately.

Speaker 2 (02:07:38):
Well.

Speaker 1 (02:07:39):
Once you once you testify, they get to ask you questions.
The other side gets to ask you all kinds of questions.
And even in the great State of Texas, certain questions
can be asked such as, well, why didn't you do
this instead?

Speaker 2 (02:07:50):
Why didn't you do that instead?

Speaker 1 (02:07:53):
And the point I'm trying to make here is that
they start asking you about were there reasonable alternatives to
the one that you took? Was there a reasonable alternative
to shooting the guy? We're not saying that you had
to necessarily run away, but could you have taken cover
and not fired, or could you have done something other than.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
What you did?

Speaker 1 (02:08:18):
If yes, what were those and if not, why not?
And those questions can get pretty uncomfortable pretty quickly, and
your cross examination can last, you know, an hour, easily
an hour or more. And so for anybody who just
thinks that, well, we have cast a doctor in the state,
or we have standard ground to this state now typically

(02:08:41):
apply only in very narrow and very prescribed circumstances within
the law. Again, so Dave's right, you need to really
read the law about that and understand how does that
actually apply to your state and to not only to
your state, but also to your specific behavior and.

Speaker 2 (02:09:00):
You know situation.

Speaker 1 (02:09:02):
Again, this may come as a shock to some people,
but in many states that do have very robust castle
doctor understand your ground laws. Those only apply within very
narrow circumstances. And then outside of those codified circumstances, you
don't get that.

Speaker 2 (02:09:22):
You don't get to claim that. And so again that
that notion of avoidance. Avoidance is a big deal. Could
you have done something to avoid this situation altogether? And
if so, why didn't you? And that please believe me,
that is going to come up even in the most
powerful standard ground state. It just is the aspect that

(02:09:46):
I've had to bring up multiple times. As far as
standard ground or castle doctrine has been in most states,
your deadly force statutes are separate. You need to meet
that criteria before you can even consider vasseled or or
underground or anything like that. It's not someone's gone into
my house, I get to shoot them. New We need

(02:10:07):
to have these, we need to we need to check
these boxes first, and that is so misunderstood and it's unfortunate,
but it's a.

Speaker 1 (02:10:15):
Lot of people think that this is all an if
then a simple if then then I can press the trigger.

Speaker 2 (02:10:22):
It's more like a detailed flow chart like you would
see from a computer programmer.

Speaker 1 (02:10:28):
And usually there's about five or six different decision points uh,
and and conditions that.

Speaker 2 (02:10:33):
Apply before it is actually legal uh to press the trigger.
It is.

Speaker 1 (02:10:41):
I'm not going to claim, you know, I'm not going
to draw them out here, but it can get very complicated,
again depending on your jurisdiction, and again the location, the people,
the situation, the threats, you know, the weapons involved, et cetera.
Uh So it's much more complicated than than what even
some I won't call practitioners, but many, you know, many

(02:11:02):
officionados of the concealed carry lifestyle can fully understand.

Speaker 2 (02:11:07):
It just as as a as a father, as a husband,
as a Christian. Yeah, bring that up all the time.
I have never found use of force force laws to
be unreasonable. M H. Absolutely, they make for me, make
complete sense. And for someone to use deadly force outside

(02:11:30):
of the parameters that are established, it goes against my beliefs. Right.
And so if people are that blatant about this, it's
it's it's it makes me concerned for our future because.

Speaker 4 (02:11:44):
There are a lot Obviously, you know what I have
to say about use of force laws, and you've heard
me say this before, Matt, what is what is the
number one way you can win every single time?

Speaker 2 (02:11:56):
Avoid? That's it? Yeah. If if you.

Speaker 4 (02:12:00):
Can get yourself out of the situation, or just not
be in the situation to begin with.

Speaker 2 (02:12:05):
Right, you win always.

Speaker 4 (02:12:08):
I don't care how insulted you feel. I don't care
how insulted your wife or girlfriend or boyfriend or whoever is.
If you avoid using force and get yourself out of there,
you win.

Speaker 2 (02:12:23):
Yes, you do, Absolutely you do.

Speaker 1 (02:12:27):
And the sting and the burn of that insult it
will fade very quick.

Speaker 2 (02:12:34):
It's temporary. It's very temporary.

Speaker 1 (02:12:36):
Even though it's hot, it's very hot in the moment,
searing in an hour or two, it will begin to
fade in twenty four hours from now. You will ask yourself,
what the hell was I thinking in the first place.
The fact that I even thought about staying there to
continue that confrontation was idiotic.

Speaker 2 (02:12:59):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (02:12:59):
And if your friends or family members or significant other
are putting you in those situations. You are violating these
stupid people rule by spending time with them. If you
have a significant other who willingly puts you in situations
where you go, well, thank god I brought my gun
because they're getting me into some bad shit. Should you

(02:13:22):
should they be your significant other?

Speaker 2 (02:13:25):
That is a damned good question.

Speaker 1 (02:13:28):
That's a damn good observation, David, because there's I know
a lot of guys who are sitting in prison because
their why for their girlfriend asked push them into making
a decision that was really foolish.

Speaker 2 (02:13:41):
You know, I put some of them in prison.

Speaker 1 (02:13:44):
Yeah right, Yeah, dude, you were about to make the
right decision, and then your loud mouthed girlfriend came up
there and said, oh, you're going to let him disrespect
you like that, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:14:00):
And it's the same person that's recording it and then says,
you're gonna get in trouble for shooting for killing right, Yeah,
right right?

Speaker 3 (02:14:08):
And if I can throw out a quick pop culture reference,
if anybody has any doubt about this, watch the best
opening scene in any movie, which is the Way of
the Gun.

Speaker 2 (02:14:18):
I knew you were going to say that.

Speaker 1 (02:14:19):
I knew you were gonna say that, John, that is
a great talk to mend percent.

Speaker 2 (02:14:26):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (02:14:29):
That is like the that that is the It's the
ludicrous extreme. And I actually believe I'm a big believer
in let's take this example too. It's ludicrous extreme because
it often shows us what reality ought to look like.
Go watch Way of the Gun. Watch the opening scene
of that, because it is a ludicrous extreme of what

(02:14:52):
some significant others will force you into.

Speaker 2 (02:14:56):
Damn, John, that's great. I think that's great that you
and I have seen that same movie. I love that movie.
That's a fantastic I've see it way too many times.

Speaker 4 (02:15:02):
And so here's the thing. How many times have one
of you guys gone to a bar or other sort
of establishment, Probably not a gambling establishment, Matt, I imagine,
but how many times have you gone to an establishment
were something so similar to that opening scene in the

(02:15:23):
Way the Gun has actually happened. Yes, And if you
allow yourself to be pushed into that situation. The grandmothers
and grandfathers that are on that jury who have never
done anything more violent than maybe played a contact sport
at one point.

Speaker 2 (02:15:38):
In their life and never saw a Way of the Gun.

Speaker 4 (02:15:41):
For someone like that to comprehend you had you had
to defend yourself because you were in this scenario that
they can't even comprehend.

Speaker 2 (02:15:53):
That.

Speaker 4 (02:15:54):
That's a tough sale on a good day, Yes it is.

Speaker 2 (02:15:58):
I'll throw this out here as a just a quick test.
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:16:02):
First of all, I have to say people need to
get out of the whole idea of may I shoot
or can I shoot?

Speaker 2 (02:16:07):
You know, yeah, can capability? Right?

Speaker 3 (02:16:12):
May You're gonna get hung up because you might have
technically met all the check boxes for the use of force.
You should only be using force when it's really a
should or a must. And the really easy way to
parse that out is to ask yourself, whose life am
I about to save? If you cannot immediately identify the

(02:16:34):
person whose life you're about to save, right, hopefully it's yours.

Speaker 2 (02:16:38):
But even if it's a third party, are they an
innocent party?

Speaker 3 (02:16:41):
You know, if you can't identify whose life you're trying
to save, deadly force is really not warranted and it's
not a matter of mother may I, it's like, no,
this needs to be kept toward the end of the
last resorts you.

Speaker 2 (02:16:53):
Know you're looking.

Speaker 3 (02:16:54):
The classic example is may should and must we don't
want to shoot people just because we may.

Speaker 2 (02:17:00):
Okay, we need to.

Speaker 3 (02:17:01):
Be using force when it's strongly suggested, like if this
thing does any further, somebody's going to get hurt, or
when all the other pretenses are stripped away and somebody's
about to die in the next three.

Speaker 2 (02:17:12):
Seconds, and all I'm figuring out is who that is
going to be? Me or him? Right? Correct? I think
I remember Chuck Haggard bringing that up about how he's
tired of people asking when can I shoot someone? Don't
approach it like that. Yeah, yeah, So to kind.

Speaker 4 (02:17:31):
Of add to what John was saying there a moment ago,
I would say, all of that applies outside of the
like just the minuteness of extremes. All that really only
applies if you're directly involved in the situation. If you're
not directly involved in the situation, your default should be witness,

(02:17:52):
correct or get out. Yes, unless you are witnessing someone
actively in the process of seriously injuring and or attempting
to kill someone else, your default should be witness or leave.
If you have children or family members with you, don't
get involved in someone else's problem. Correct, And I know

(02:18:13):
that seems really weird, probably coming from a police officer,
but the way society is these days, if you have
other people to care for, you need to take care
of them first and not get yourself involved in someone
else's problem unless that problem is going to end up
affecting you.

Speaker 1 (02:18:31):
People love to talk about the sheep dog mentality. What
I would say is, be a shepherd. If you have
your loved ones and your family with you, or somebody
that's important to you, at the very first sign of trouble,
you turn to them and you heard them away, you
shepherd them away from Hey, we're leaving right now. So
my wife and I had a little you know, we

(02:18:53):
talked about this. If I turned to her and said
we're leaving right now, there was no questions.

Speaker 2 (02:18:58):
I asked, she would grab the kids and.

Speaker 1 (02:18:59):
We would immediately leave, turn around and walk away quickly.
And the other one was if I ever told them
to get on the ground right now, they would do
it unquestioningly. But obviously that is the less that that's
even less than one tenth of one percent of a possibility.
Typically it's let's go, we're leaving right now. You see

(02:19:22):
some kind of trouble happening. Over here. You turn to them,
we're leaving right now, and you just simply do a
one hundred and eighty degree turn and you walk away
from it.

Speaker 2 (02:19:29):
You leave immediately.

Speaker 1 (02:19:31):
That is almost always the best policy.

Speaker 2 (02:19:34):
Let's talk about that for a minute, because to me,
that is it's such an overlooked aspect to already have
that plan already, have that discussion with the wife and
the kids, yes, or the husband and the kids or
whoever you already have already have this plan, have that keyword,
that pro word already picked out. This is said. We
are not going to argue. We are going that's correay.

(02:19:56):
I know, we're going to the store to get you gum. Nope,
we're going to go somewhere else. So we're going to
come back at the later time. Right. So how how
how have you all of you guys gone about doing this?
Because I know you have pretty similar to to what
Doug just described. I mean, it's and I.

Speaker 3 (02:20:13):
Think you know, fortunately my wife was in law enforcement
and so that that made it a lot easier. But a
lot of times you just tell a voice. You know,
we had an instant up in Nashville and we're trying
to I've got well, I guess they were probably seven
and four and four.

Speaker 2 (02:20:26):
That's a lot of ankle biters to wrankle.

Speaker 3 (02:20:29):
And there was what appears to be a uh, you know,
deranged intoxicated man outside of the hotel, urinating in public
as we're starting to head in and we're supposed to
do something out front, gather some stuff. I think we
may have had luggage out there, and I'm like, get
in the hotel now, yeah, And there was no question
which just like boom, we're in the hotel. You know,
the crazy drunk guy, right, if he takes our bags,

(02:20:52):
so what we'll we'll get that stuff sorted out later,
but like let's get the kids in the hotel and
deal with all.

Speaker 2 (02:20:57):
That later, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:21:00):
Yeah, No, I've had similar stuff happen. I mean, uh
minor minor ten and about before, and uh, of course
the ten year old is very much in the well
why are we doing this?

Speaker 2 (02:21:11):
You know?

Speaker 4 (02:21:12):
Ye, that questioning, that bargaining, all that kind of stuff, and.

Speaker 2 (02:21:17):
I I don't know.

Speaker 4 (02:21:20):
In the fall, I guess it was a similar kind
of situation where something was going on and I was like, okay,
we're not going in there, and uh, she looked at me,
and she didn't say why.

Speaker 2 (02:21:34):
They said we're not going come.

Speaker 4 (02:21:35):
On and and and like it was all of us
there and uh and my wife was like, yeah, I
know it was serious because you use your cop voice.

Speaker 2 (02:21:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:21:47):
And it was like it was like a restaurant that
we were going to. I don't even remember what the
restaurant was, but we were in somewhere else and had
a lovely dinner without being involved in Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:21:58):
And for all you know, David, there was like a knockdown,
drag out Barbara all in the place after you left.
Guess what, You and your family were not present when
that happened.

Speaker 2 (02:22:09):
That's the big deal. Kids didn't witness something they didn't
need to see. You weren't pulled in, even as whether
you're a citizen or a police officer, you weren't pulled
into it. Yeah, you know. So I know I've said this.

Speaker 1 (02:22:21):
I may have said this on your podcast already, Matt,
and so I apologize if I'm if I'm repeating myself.
I believe wholeheartedly as a former swap guy, that there's
way too much emphasis in the private citizen world on
tactical SWAT Delta sky Ranger stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:22:44):
You know I do. And I'm not being.

Speaker 1 (02:22:48):
An asshole about this. I want to be very clear.
There's wonderful skill sets that overlap and apply.

Speaker 2 (02:22:54):
We need more knife stuff, and we.

Speaker 1 (02:22:56):
Need lots more knock stuff, lots of it, and filato
belt fed stuff for every day carry.

Speaker 2 (02:23:03):
I have some of that. Yeah, it's okay to have
all that.

Speaker 1 (02:23:08):
But you know, my take on all this is, you know,
what I tell people is like, hey, I know that
it's really cool because look, I've been trained by former
Delta Force guys. I've been to shoot house instructor school
put on by those guys. I've been to various classes
and all that I have, and you can go to
that too. But if you want to model yourself after

(02:23:32):
some operator or something, I recommend you model yourself after
a spy. It's in a hostile foreign country who cannot
afford to be identified or picked up or questioned ever.
And so that's a fancy way of saying the gray man.
But I want to put even more consequence on it.

(02:23:53):
If you want to model yourself after somebody, model yourself
after whatever you know, CIA operative or spy you want
to model yourself after. And let's be very Frank, there
is a certain percentage of the community that does like
to do that. They'd like to model themselves after a
particular subset, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:24:14):
Okay, so I need to be like Mike Green.

Speaker 1 (02:24:16):
Yeah, so so be be the guy that is on
the secret mission who cannot afford to be identified, questioned,
or stopped ever right as it goes beyond the gray man,
that's that's so, that's the guy that is the super
I mean, this is like Jason Bourne to the you know, cube,

(02:24:37):
to the thirty.

Speaker 2 (02:24:38):
And you're not saying to just cops.

Speaker 1 (02:24:42):
Everyone everybody, No, I'm everyone specifically everybody. So you know,
you're pretend you're the highly skilled operative. Pretend that you're
a coiled spring, you know, you know, capable of all
kinds of devastating you know, attacks and whatnot. But you
can't afford be recognized seeing, you know, even much less

(02:25:03):
even even looked over, questioned. Uh talk to Uh if
you just do that, it's surprising, you know. So I
can't afford to even be talked to.

Speaker 2 (02:25:13):
I don't want to. I don't want anybody to even
know I was ever even here.

Speaker 1 (02:25:16):
And so when I talk to people to talk about
these days now, that I'm no longer involved in law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (02:25:21):
If I even see a hint of trouble starting, by
the time somebody realizes that trouble is started and they
look over and they're like, where the hell did dog go?
What happened? I've already left. I mean I used to
do that as a cop in uniforms. I know. No
he didn't, Yeah, no, he did not. There's a twenty
dollars bill. There's a twenty dollars bill right here, and

(02:25:44):
he's gone.

Speaker 1 (02:25:45):
He left, I don't know. And then they see some
door on some side door, you know, closing the white closing,
like where the hell did he go? That's how I
operate these days. I don't even want to be anywhere
near I don't want to be I don't even want
to be a witness. I just disappear. I'm just gone
because I don't want any trouble for me, my future,

(02:26:09):
or my family. That's just how I operate now.

Speaker 3 (02:26:13):
And even I think the analogy holds really well because
in that spy situation, your agency is going through disavalue, right,
I got nice for you. That's another problem we're in now,
in the culture of MALIU that we're operating in is
as much as I am a fan of pro social
violence and hell I even invented the term, right, the
culture of maliu is as soon as you engage in

(02:26:33):
anything that's even quasi not pro social violence, if they're
going to disavalue, toss you into the machinery that is
the justice system and say good luck, buddy.

Speaker 2 (02:26:44):
And I think that analogy holds really well.

Speaker 1 (02:26:47):
Yeah, mister Hearn was acting beyond the scope of his
duties at the time. Were shocked and saddened by his behavior,
you know, and it's unfortunate that he chose to behave
in such.

Speaker 2 (02:26:58):
A manner in a public forum. And then with the
weather and.

Speaker 1 (02:27:03):
That you know, that's it, You're done, You're one hundred
percent right, they'll just second.

Speaker 2 (02:27:09):
Yeah. So also just a further on, just partially or
just a little bit, where you were talking about not
involving yourself for yourself, for your self sake and your
famili's and that also includes your family who may not
be present because the things that you go through. Who's
going to hear about it at school, Who's going to
hear about it at their work? Yes?

Speaker 1 (02:27:31):
Yeah, all the things we do affect other people they do.

Speaker 2 (02:27:35):
It absolutely affects other people.

Speaker 1 (02:27:37):
Well, I mean, look, even if you're a single guy
who lives in your mom's basement's going to affect your mom,
you know. I mean, at the minimum, it is going
to affect your mom.

Speaker 2 (02:27:45):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:27:46):
So you know if you're you're a regular person that
has a husband and you know, two kids and all that,
and you're like, okay, so you got into what kind
of the situation at the school pickup line with who?

Speaker 2 (02:27:58):
Okay, so with Myrtle Johnson in and now she's saying
that you did what Okay, now in her hands. Everyone
knows Myrtle. So yeah, why did you do that? Darling?

Speaker 1 (02:28:09):
Okay, So now we have a real problem on our hands.
You know, that's not even a shooting. That could just
be some ugly, nasty, you know assault situation. Now it
affects no longer for kids at school, you know that's right.

Speaker 4 (02:28:24):
Well, and the thing is the sixty school kids that
all had their phones out, oh god, and the people
in the line who were texting instead of paying attention
to where their car was going. Yes, they see something
developed they record your abhorrent behavior. Yes, that makes it
way to your that makes its way to your boss. Yes,
there's there's nothing criminal which occurred, but you lose your

(02:28:45):
job over.

Speaker 2 (02:28:46):
It, that's correct, Hey, And that's not even a hypothetical.

Speaker 1 (02:28:49):
That is something that happened in the uh. I'm in
a very stupid uh h h o a Facebook group
for the neighborhood that I live in, and some lady
got super mad about the behavior of another lady in
the school pickup line and posted it in the hoa

(02:29:11):
Facebook group and then you know, it got deleted, but it.

Speaker 2 (02:29:15):
Was too late.

Speaker 1 (02:29:16):
Somebody else had already screenshotted it and guess what, they
showed it to a larger like city Facebook group and
next thing you know, it is just gone everywhere. And
that's exactly what happened to David. That lady lost her
job and she became persona on Grada at the damned
elementary school over two women having an ugly conflict in

(02:29:37):
the damn school pickup line. That's a real story, that
really happens.

Speaker 3 (02:29:41):
Yeah, and we had the Philadelphia Eagles fan that got
called somebody of the sea work. I mean, he was
fairly a fairly affluent dude and now he's not.

Speaker 1 (02:29:51):
Now he's not that's right. Imagine the hatred, the hatred
that came on to that guy. Well deserved, by the way.
But yeah, I mean, the internet will always find you.
It just it just will. So anyway, Matt, I'm sorry
the attorney didn't show up tonight. It's life, but I'm

(02:30:12):
glad David did. David, you didn't even get a chance
to introduce yourself. I mean, I know you're in West Virginia,
but I mean, I mean, I know we're a little
late in the story.

Speaker 2 (02:30:21):
Here, tell me your story. What are you like about guns? Yes,
knives and guns. I'm a nerd.

Speaker 4 (02:30:29):
I've been participating wholeheartedly in Revolver Degeneracy recently, wholeheartedly.

Speaker 2 (02:30:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:30:37):
No, I've been doing the cop thing for like twelve years.
I've done all sorts of crazy stuff. I've running gun
range on the co owner of a seven to two
FFL currently. We started twenty twelve. Very cool. Yeah, it
got a lot less fun when we turn it into
a business. I mean, we had a lot of cool
machine guns. But yeah, yeah, and that's that's DNA guns.

(02:31:01):
If you want to look us up. My business partner, Abe,
he's driving force behind it because I do the cop
thing full time. Yeah, I'm in a supervisory rank now,
and that's just it's weird.

Speaker 2 (02:31:12):
H Yeah, yeah, I know that. I know all about that.

Speaker 3 (02:31:16):
Man.

Speaker 2 (02:31:16):
It changes, it changes, uh, it changes a lot. Yeah,
very different. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:31:23):
I do the swat thing too. It's kind of it's
kind of my like keeping the pinky toe on my
left foot in the waters of being a real cop.

Speaker 2 (02:31:33):
Yeah, you know, yeah, and uh and.

Speaker 4 (02:31:35):
Yeah like that what you're talking about with the swat stuff, Like,
it's cool. It's fun to go to uh, to kind
of to kind of quote Steve Fisher, you know instead
of band camp, you're going to gun camp. Sure, you
know because because regular people, and I put myself in
the category.

Speaker 2 (02:31:51):
Of regular people.

Speaker 4 (02:31:52):
I'm not looking down on anyone, because regular people are
going to on a on a normal basis where a
battle belt and a plate care barrier and go to
war with a rifle, right you know, in their hometown.
Anyone who watches this, I hope that never happens to you,
because that would be incredibly awful. It's fun as hell

(02:32:14):
to go to gun camp.

Speaker 2 (02:32:15):
Though, sure, Yeah, lots of fun. I mean tremendous fun.

Speaker 4 (02:32:19):
And go do go do room clearing and all sorts
of other stuff like that. All that stuff's fun. I mean,
SWAT is essentially I know it seems kind of cliche,
but like a life saving organization because we go and
do stuff that requires speed and decisive violence of action
to keep people from making stupid decisions to where they're
going to hurt themselves or other people or law enforcement

(02:32:41):
would normally have to hurt them.

Speaker 2 (02:32:43):
Yes, so it's it's too.

Speaker 4 (02:32:47):
Hopefully and most of the time it works avoid anyone
getting seriously injured or killed. Correct, And that's what all
the high speed stuff is for and everything it's it's
not like a military operation where we go and you know,
like go to a compound and kill everyone inside of
two o'clock in the morning with like that. That's not

(02:33:07):
what SWAT does. SWAT goes and does things that are
more dangerous than what patrol people normally handle. And it's
to do it in with decisive, decisive action and speed,
with equipment that regular patrol people don't have, and with
skills regular patrol people don't have, and it's to save
people's lives. It is not for any other reason.

Speaker 3 (02:33:26):
That's exactly where they're to stop the monkey dance by
being the biggest gorilla in the room exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:33:33):
Yes, yeah, but yeah, like that's it.

Speaker 4 (02:33:38):
I kind of I kind of went went down the
rabbit hole a little bit there.

Speaker 2 (02:33:42):
But but yeah, that's true.

Speaker 4 (02:33:43):
I've been on Yeah, I don't know Matt's Matt and
I met, well, we knew each other on the internet
a little bit, and then I think twenty seventeen ish
we met at shot and since then Matt has much
much against my own advice, trusted me with a lot
of things.

Speaker 2 (02:34:04):
And yeah, well and so we It was Facebook groups
that we It was the CZ Facebook. Yes, it was
a gen pop CZ group good war Oh wow, Oh okay,
it was horrible and I was I was seeing good
things from a a reasonable moderator and I liked what
he was doing. And I also.

Speaker 4 (02:34:24):
Happened to be in that was That was in the
days of uh there weren't seven, four, twelve Facebook groups.
There was like three. Yeah, and you and that was
a you will stay on topic or we will kick
you out of the group.

Speaker 2 (02:34:40):
Yeah, that was.

Speaker 4 (02:34:42):
That was pretty hardcore at that time.

Speaker 2 (02:34:44):
Yeah, wow, old age, right, guys.

Speaker 3 (02:34:49):
I'm at I've got to start to wind down because
I need to go to bed. To get up to
drive home really early because I am at the fabulous
meat Hall range and I spent four days with Chuck Presburg, so.

Speaker 2 (02:35:01):
That was some really cool stuff. I was just going
to throw out a couple of thoughts here real quick.

Speaker 3 (02:35:04):
We mentioned it is people don't appreciate the concept.

Speaker 2 (02:35:09):
That everybody calls it the race to nine one one.

Speaker 3 (02:35:11):
If you talk to any of the self defense insurance companies,
they are very rarely represent somebody because somebody murdered somebody
or actually shot someone.

Speaker 2 (02:35:21):
The vast majority of the reason those.

Speaker 3 (02:35:23):
Insurances are being used is because of brandishing charges, right.
And part of dodging that whole issue is I'm not
saying don't pull your gun and threaten violence because I
think of de selection is like has three distinct steps.
There's a general de selection that's what you broadcast into
the world.

Speaker 2 (02:35:42):
There's a specific deselection that's because a lot of.

Speaker 3 (02:35:44):
Times there's an interview, right, so I want to be
I want to fail that interview. But at a certain point,
the only thing you have left is violent deselection. And
if you can show the person that you have an
equal or greater willingness to use violence, A lot of
times you can select that way. But just because you
run the dude.

Speaker 2 (02:36:02):
Off does not mean that your job is done.

Speaker 3 (02:36:05):
You need to make sure that gets reported in The
first guy that they hear from is you. As far
as that stuff goes, everybody here knows I'm a nerd.
If you want to read a very interesting case, it's
out there on the internet. Just google A C L
D N and Larry Hickey h I c K E Y.
This is an older case now, but it's a bit

(02:36:25):
of a nightmare. Larry Hickey was a serious self defense student.
He'd attended multiple multi day firearms training, gets into a
confrontation with his neighbor gets basically it's a disparity of
force case where I think that three people were trying
to attack him all at the same time.

Speaker 2 (02:36:45):
Really fascinating from the standpoint that the initial.

Speaker 3 (02:36:48):
Trial it was a hung jury and they decided to
go ahead and retry him.

Speaker 2 (02:36:53):
This isn't some California cases. Is an Arizona case.

Speaker 3 (02:36:57):
And one of the things that makes some of the
cops from the Pavilion stuff differently is the cops are
going to get sued for the deep pockets. What's kind
of interesting about the Larry Hickey case is that in
order for the criminal the civil lawsuit to proceed against
his homeowners insurance, the bad guys had to admit that
they were in his yard, which was a fundamentally different

(02:37:18):
statement when where they said they were in the first trial.
So it's like a it's a long article, but if
you think that profanity and training and all that stuff
is not going to affect your case, the Larry Hickey
case is a really really good one if you've got
a little bit of time to dive into.

Speaker 2 (02:37:41):
I'll throw those out for thoughts. As far as that goes.
Where can people find you?

Speaker 3 (02:37:47):
Two pillars training dot com? Best place is the Facebook
business page. Have a newsletter that I published once a month,
traveling the country, all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:38:00):
I'll teach most anywhere. What's your most popular class? So
lecture wise, who wins, who loses? And why?

Speaker 3 (02:38:08):
Eight ten hour dive into humor, performance under Stress, written
in plain English. I don't talk about hypothalmas and amygdala
and all the brain parts that you really don't need
to understand, really rooted in current research and science as
far as that stuff goes.

Speaker 2 (02:38:24):
And then my.

Speaker 3 (02:38:24):
Flagship course is called Cognitive pistol with tactical anatomy. Doug
was a victim of that class. You know, it's all
about thinking with the gun in your hand and trying
to I call it a finishing school for the well
prepared gunman because we'll get into topics that a lot
of other.

Speaker 2 (02:38:40):
Classes don't deal with.

Speaker 3 (02:38:41):
So, yeah, making decisions with information, tactical anatomy, moving targets,
I call it redneck tech. I have built a lot
of stuff in my garage over the years to help
me teach certain points, and I have that pretty refined
now as far as that stuff goes.

Speaker 2 (02:38:58):
Yeah, it's an outstanding class, and I've been to a
hell of a lot of classes that were paid for
by the government and that I paid for myself. It
is some of the best train I've ever been to.

Speaker 1 (02:39:09):
And I deeply and strongly recommend that people get to it,
especially privacisms.

Speaker 2 (02:39:14):
Thank you, Dougar.

Speaker 1 (02:39:15):
Mom.

Speaker 3 (02:39:15):
I'm going to give you that twenty dollars, not just.

Speaker 2 (02:39:20):
The one that he left when he left. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, that's right. So I remember having a conversation
with John about some of his lectures I really saw
would be beneficial for city officials. Decision makers, city council people, mayors,
managers to see so they have a better understanding of

(02:39:40):
this is what your law enforcement is dealing with, and
this is why we need funding. And if you want
to have a good, functional law enforcement agency, this can
help you. And so yeah, I've now, I haven't been
to a dedicated class of John's, but I've been to
several of his lectures that are attached to other things

(02:40:03):
like tech coon or Tom's instructor class. Yeah, yeah, arrange mate.

Speaker 3 (02:40:14):
I appreciate your optimism, but we all know that logic,
reason and critical thinking are rarely the forces that move
a city or a police department forward.

Speaker 2 (02:40:22):
Undet It's unfortunate, but fantastic discussions, fantastic lectures from you,
and I highly encourage them. I'm still trying to twist
my dad's arm to go to one of your lectures.
But yeah, in time, in time, he still needs to
move over here too. But Dave, final thoughts, final plugs

(02:40:43):
where people can find you all that good stuff. We'ren't
trying to shut the conversation down. I'm just saying, no,
it's been two hours and forty minutes. We probably need
to wrap. Yeah, well, this is lightweight for P and
S though, I mean, but it's been so great, it's
been content rich.

Speaker 4 (02:41:01):
Matt's going to get lots of little toes you can
post out of cal Armstrong.

Speaker 2 (02:41:06):
I said, Hi to Bill.

Speaker 4 (02:41:10):
Uh So, as far as I don't have a training
company or anything like that, but there is, Like I said,
I'm a I'm a Type seven class TFFL.

Speaker 2 (02:41:18):
So if you uh, it's.

Speaker 4 (02:41:22):
DNA Guns, Delta November Alpha Guns, and you can look
us up. If you have a transferable registered machine gun
that has some issues, we can likely fix it keep
that thing running. We do events, we do we do
movie stuff. We do all sorts of interesting things like that.

(02:41:44):
But outside of outside of that, I just try to
support my friends like Matt and and the others. I
do some P and S stuff. One of the one
of the fun things I like about Primary and Secondary
is the discord server we have. There is rampant degeneracy
of the of the wholesome family friendly kind. It really is, yes,

(02:42:06):
absolutely wholesome family friendly kind. But yeah, yeah, absolutely, and
uh yeah, there's there's been lots of revolver degeneracy recently,
which I wholeheartedly and am in support of because talk
about you talk about thinking, thinking while shooting. Operating a

(02:42:28):
double action trigger while shooting really really pushes that thinking
while shooting more than a tuned two and a half
three pounds, you know, until twenty eleven or or say
three twenty And no, I'm not going to dive into
all that drama.

Speaker 2 (02:42:48):
But the one on my wall is unloaded, just so
you know. Hey, good safety first.

Speaker 4 (02:42:54):
Actually no safety third, because it's safety first, we don't ever.

Speaker 2 (02:42:56):
Do anything fun.

Speaker 4 (02:42:58):
But with all that, yeah, PNS is a is a
great resource. It's unfortunately Matt or we as a whole,
I don't have the reach. I think that really we should.
And there's a lot of there's a lot of trainers
in training companies which are in the same boat where

(02:43:19):
there's a really relatively limited audience. So if you see
stuff you like, please share it. And Matt says it,
I try to say it. I share it and not necessarily,
not necessarily this nerdery, This is pretty this is pretty
deep dive. Although I believe it's important information to know.
Share share the like the submachine guns podcasts at modcasts

(02:43:42):
that I that I was in where I had like
a bag of holding with one hundred different sub machine
guns laying on my floor in my office here, or
the or one of the Revolver or Snubby Talks where
like Darryl and Chuck and a couple other guys and
Brian with a y just like go full on hear
about about Snubbies, or I wanted the moodcasts with with

(02:44:05):
the other Chuck Chuck p where he talks about all
the high speed, high capacity shoot people in the face,
semi autos, you know, all that kind of stuff, the
kind of the kind of stuff that's uh, that's kind
of uh, let's say, a gateway drug to the really
deep nerdery that we also get into, like Tonight's because

(02:44:26):
because I really think Tonight's is not for not for
the faint of heart, because I think all of us
were talking about stuff that's very much slapping the face realism,
which is not it's not fun the way talking about
guns is fun.

Speaker 2 (02:44:39):
Right, it's not or knives or knives you know, but
it's it's but it's real life. I don't have those either,
but yeah, it's real life and it's and these are
these are concepts where once you when you reach a
certain level, you need to actually think about it and
and consider it.

Speaker 4 (02:44:58):
Yeah, and it's kind of whichever kind of vernacular you
want to use, whether it's chances, fervors, they're prepared, or
the Good Lord helps those who help themselves. If you
set yourself up for success before you even have to
make the decision about avoiding stupid people, stupid places, stupid times.

(02:45:20):
If you set yourself up for success before you even
get into those decisions, you're already way ahead of the game.

Speaker 2 (02:45:26):
Yeah. Absolutely, dug thank you again for having me on Matt.

Speaker 1 (02:45:34):
I'm so busy these days. I just never I never thought.
I honest to god, I never thought this little one
man business of mine would be where it is today.
I just genuinely am a little weirded out by the
activity now. You know, if I could give some ad

(02:45:56):
buyas to anybody who's watching right now, I don't care
if you're from New York City or if you're from
southern California. If you'll act like a southern gentleman when
the stakes are high, you'll be surprised how far that'll
take you. And the other thing, too, is when stakes
you're high and there's some asshole that's really pushed your
buttons and you are righteously angry. Speak in even if

(02:46:20):
you have to yell, speak, yell, and communicate as if
your grandmother was standing right there watching you, or like
your kids were standing right there watching. And if you
don't have kids yet, pretend your future kids are standing
there and that someday you're going to have to explain
to them why you behave the way you did. Okay,
if you'll just do that, Just try your best, even

(02:46:41):
if you're not from the South, just try to act
like a Southern gentleman and try to say things so
you can speak. You can say really harsh things sometimes
and deadly things even and still come across as a rational,
reasonable person who's just trying to extricate themselves from an
ugly situation.

Speaker 2 (02:47:00):
Please do that, and you'll never have to hire a
guy like me. Okay, just do that.

Speaker 1 (02:47:05):
Uh, you can find me at r d R Texas
dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:47:10):
And the truth is, I hope you never do, because
if you have to hire me, or you have to
ask your attorney to hire me, you're in a bad
spot in the first place. And the whole purpose of
this tonight's discussion is for you to never ever even
have to think about doing something like that. You win
every fight you're not involved in. If you're not there
for the trouble and and the difficulty in the first place,

(02:47:32):
you're the winner. You are the big winner. Keep that
in mind. And you were recently featured on a program.

Speaker 1 (02:47:38):
Uh well, as of tonight, I haven't watched it yet.
I was on Mark Levin's show tonight, what's the show
Life Liberty and Levin.

Speaker 2 (02:47:48):
I have to go watch it after we get offline.
Here see how you're And you're prominently featured in some
videos that have been floating around, I know. And so
before we officially started, we talked a little bit of
about it, and you may you may watch that video
and think, well, that's a really well prepared thought out
he did it almost right then and there. That's that's

(02:48:11):
the kind of speaker this guy is.

Speaker 1 (02:48:13):
Well, I had the benefit of having a smartphone. I
could just hammer it out on you know, ahead of time.
But you know, tried to so try. You know, these days,
I can't even believe it because I used to be
so brash and bold and frankly a little irresponsible when
I was younger and immature. I surprise myself sometimes I
try to be measured and cautious with my words. And

(02:48:36):
I think a great deal of that is because of
mistakes I've made in the past and and and being
being a foolish young man. And I want everybody watching
this to grow up to be able to become a measured,
immature person and get past any difficulties that you're having so.

Speaker 2 (02:48:53):
Make it or grew up to be Doug Deaton. Shit,
I don't know. And again I think every episode I
need to bring up and his hair is just like
that in person too. Oh please, ye.

Speaker 3 (02:49:09):
Hey, dude, We're all examples. Just some of us are
examples of what not to do.

Speaker 1 (02:49:14):
Yeah, all of us are. I've been that guy myself,
I really have.

Speaker 2 (02:49:18):
I believe me. I'm not. I mean, I am not
without sin.

Speaker 1 (02:49:21):
I'm telling you, like I said in the beginning of
this show, if I could go back in time and
kick my own ass.

Speaker 2 (02:49:28):
I'd do it. But I can't. So please let me
help you to not make mistakes that I've made in
the past. Two Yeah. Yeah, And the discussion here was
from experience and from knowledge and from study. And this
is this is real. This is real. Also a big
shout out to Bill Over at meat All range basically. Yeah, man,

(02:49:50):
the level of the level of the classes. Yes, the
instructors that come out this absolute top notch.

Speaker 3 (02:50:00):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:50:00):
I know Bill gives me a hard time about this,
but I have not yet been to the facility, but
I understand it is absolutely top notch. But the classes
that he's able to host are just cream of the
cropt fantastic, fantast people.

Speaker 3 (02:50:14):
Need to get there and a training destination. Yes, most
of the people in class aren't from around here. They
come in because of the facility which is incredible, as
well as the selection of instructors.

Speaker 2 (02:50:27):
Yeah. So my favorite thing to say, and I usually
say it at the beginning. Usually I say it before
our final thoughts, but I will say it now. Make
sure that you are supporting those sources that you have
found to be beneficial. If you like what these guys
had to say, make sure you're finding them on social media,
if they happen to like in John's instance, if he

(02:50:47):
has classes that you read up on and you go
ooh this might apply to me, you should attend it. Truly, truly,
I absolutely love doing these episodes. I love networking that
I've been able to be a part of with Primary
and secondary. Getting this caliber of panel together is outstanding.

(02:51:08):
And again though these are real topics. This isn't your fun.
This isn't going to get all the clicks, This isn't
going to get all the likes. This will probably not
get very many likes, This will probably get less less views.
But it's real. And so for.

Speaker 3 (02:51:24):
To tell you how to make a machine gun in
this exactly, yeah, no, that is not going to be
its own part.

Speaker 2 (02:51:33):
There goes to this. David similarly showed how to make
a machine gun. I was.

Speaker 6 (02:51:40):
In the bathroom and he was a victim of circumstance,
and he has the federal regulation whatever whatever to do that,
which and Dave will probably agree, probably.

Speaker 2 (02:51:54):
Should just be done with. We've got let's get rid
of the ATF. Let's get rid of all these regulations.

Speaker 1 (02:52:00):
I should be able to buy a suppressor anywhere seven
eleventh anywhere over the counter.

Speaker 2 (02:52:07):
I agree the same with Bolotto, same with short barrels,
because yeah, you're not looking at more lethality. It's not
more dangerous, No, it's it's the people that are the
dangerous thing. Let's regulate the people. There you go that
that that will go over really well regularly with people.
You mean like you mean like enforce criminal laws that

(02:52:28):
what imagine that? Because it's the people that are that
are that are dangerous, it's not the objects. Hell, what
was it happy Land in New York? How many people
died in that fire? They didn't use a single firearm. Oh,
they use gasoline on a on a staircase. God. So
make sure you're supporting those sources that you have found

(02:52:49):
to be beneficial. That doesn't necessarily mean us, That means whatever, whatever,
whatever you appreciate. Those algorithms do not work in any
of our favors. The fact that there are guns behind
me all all of a sudden, I've alreagutten strikes. Make
sure you're given like subscription shares. If you appreciated this,
make sure you're sharing it to the appropriate audience. Hell,

(02:53:09):
share it to everyone, But sharing it to the appropriate
audience actually is going to be much more beneficial because
you're thinking about the people that would be consuming this,
and because the algorithms aren't going to be helping us out,
we rely on you, the viewer or the listener, to
help us out by helping spread this. So big thanks

(02:53:29):
to the sponsors, big thanks, big thanks to Lucky Gunner,
Filster Walter. Lastly, big thank you to the networks of
supporters on Patreon and on the forum Primary and Secondary
dot com slash forum. All these resources are here for
your use. I love throwing this together. This was episode
four hundred and twenty six. Wow. I rarely have had

(02:53:51):
an hour long episode. They're usually multiple hours. Multiply whatever
that number is by four hundred and twenty six, and
that's how many hours of content I have for you.
On top of that, I also have some clips, I
have some videos, educational stuff, all kinds of content. I'd
love providing it. So yeah, if you like what you're seeing,

(02:54:12):
like when liking what you're hearing, make sure you're sharing.
I think that's pretty much it. I can't think of
anything else. Great discussion. Thanks guys, Thanks for for for
for being here for this discussion. I again, unfortunately this
isn't one of those sexy topics that that's going to
be super popular, but it is super beneficial because it

(02:54:33):
is real.

Speaker 4 (02:54:35):
Even I mean, we we shout at the void and
occasionally one or two people who are in the void
might hear.

Speaker 2 (02:54:40):
Us, and that and and that's okay, and I'm okay.
And if we're positively affecting one person, that's awesome, that's right,
because it's that has a ripple effect that will help
their family there whoever. And I'd rather provide that resource
and always have this present than not have it there.
So I guess I'll kill the feed now. And uh

(02:55:04):
really this the audio version will be released later this week. Cool.
Hopefully this will be able to stay on YouTube. And
YouTube will give me too many problems, you think, so
surely one would hope.

Speaker 4 (02:55:17):
Hey, I made a point of not dry firing guns
in the feed, Okay, I mean point of it.

Speaker 2 (02:55:24):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (02:55:27):
Yeah, Lacey didn't come in here like a belt fed like,
let me show you how to load this again.

Speaker 2 (02:55:31):
Flip this up, you know, make sure the links will
get you.

Speaker 6 (02:55:35):
Yeah, yeah, all right, Hey, I'm gonna I really really
enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (02:55:41):
I mean it was.

Speaker 1 (02:55:42):
It's good to see you. I see your name and stuff.
It's really good to see you. Hear your voice, man,
I mean that awesome. Yeah, same with you, Doug. All right,
thanks a lot, y'all. I gotta take off. We'll see
y'all later.

Speaker 2 (02:55:52):
Bye. I see you guys later.

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P&S ModCast 426 - Legally Defensive Mindset

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 426 - Legally Defensive Mindset