P&S ModCast 438 - YouTube Ballistics: Misinformation or Ads - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Because that's what we do. Yeah, because it's fun. Okay,
So right now trying to get chucked into this and
then oh, I know what I'm doing wrong, stupid internet.
So right now trying to get chuck in. Then we

(00:22):
and then Mark should be jumping in. We have Steve.
It's already been comment. There's already been a comment that
this is going to be a spicy one. I sure
hope so spicy spicy. Now it worked, hallelujah, hallelujah. So

(00:46):
hopefully because my background is has sparse firearms, we're not
going to get as many strikes. I just need to
come back.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, you pulled some off of your wall there, so
that's going to help things out right. That's the hopes.
That's the hopes.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Had a firearms day last week. Maybe it was this week.
I don't know. Everything's it was last week and I
pulled a bunch that could be carry guns or backup guns,
and we had a somewhat new shooter with us that
I thought, Okay, I'm going to select some stuff that
might be a good choice for someone new to firearms.

(01:25):
And it did. And they're still in gun bags and
they need to be put back in their place. So
welcome to podcast. Right now, it's just Steve. We're going
to be joined by a couple others. There might even
be more than a couple that join us. We'll see
the episode numbers four thirty eight. The date is August sixteenth,

(01:45):
twenty five. We're going to talk about a couple of
things that might be spicy. Sacred cows make the best steaks. Yes,
I don't know how we got on the topic, but
it was basically under kind of the the idea that
most YouTube ballistics videos either it's miss straight up misinformation.

(02:09):
They're using groceries, they're they're they're focusing on the wrong
aspects of the testing, or it's an ad. You might
have a popular YouTuber that does these that makes these
videos of these ballistic tests, and they come to conclusions
that are not aligned with what we should be looking

(02:30):
at in ballistic testing. Oh look how much of that
gel the block of jail jumped. That's a material that
doesn't really mean anything. We're not measuring that. So that's
going to be the big gist and I and I'm
sure we're going to go off into different areas, different
segments of it. Before we get into that we do
have Steve here. I don't know if you guys. Ah

(02:54):
question for the two of us, Steve, are you going
to Revolver Revolver Round up in South Carolina? I will, Yeah,
Steve will not South Carolina. Not not there. He will
not be going there, not not not South Carolina.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
But I will be at revolve around up down in Arizona,
the pat Rogers Memorial at gun Sight and one.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Of these days I'd like to go. If anything, it's
to hang out with friends because it's just a good one.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
You know. My dad used to say when someone used
to say, one of these days you'd go to the calendar,
go on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday Sun. No,
I don't see one of these days on her. Still
pick one, So just pick one, just going, just do it,
just do it. Then we talked to asked to go

(03:45):
to South Carolina. But that's quite a jump for me
to go there.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Out there, you can't just take the private jet and.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Well, yeah, I don't have my uh I guess now
you have have to have you're either that enhance you
either have to have a passport or enhance driver's license.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Or something to be able to fly. Now I have neither. Yep,
did you just go mute? Or did my ears just
turn off? Chuck? Can you hear him?

Speaker 2 (04:26):
I can't hear him either, Okay, And.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
That was a that was a punchline of a great joke.
We just all missed it. And I think Mark got
lost on the way. So Steve you are. It doesn't
show that you are muted, but maybe something happened with

(04:52):
your mic. The battery died, because what I was hoping
to do is and he died.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Steve died.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
I was hoping to talk about some example. Are you
going to be going to a revolver round up in
South Carolina the Revolver Fast Yes?

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Cool, Yeah, I'm one of the presenters.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Cool. So for someone who is not quite the revolver
of ficion Auto and they're just getting their feet wet
in it, in your opinion, is it's still worth going to?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
I think so? Yeah, I think so. I think like
we're going to We're going to start out the day
with a big round robin of all the instructors running
through a basic revolver like trigger manipulation, things like that,
how to run double action guns, that sort of thing.
So the whole thing. I'll start out with some gripsite

(05:54):
trigger and then a variety of classes on like carry
modes and loading. You know, how to use loaders, how
to use strips, things like that.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah. Yeah, have you used the the z as much?

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Not really, I just don't like them that much. They
I know people that do like them. I have, I
mean I have. I've used them enough to give them
a fair chance to know that they don't really work
for me. I do keep them in my bag of

(06:31):
show and tell of stuff that I show other people
so that, uh, you know, you know, I can hand
them out of class. People can try them if they
want to. Things like that.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
I do like. I like the Staggered, the straight Line though,
we're just fine for me, but the Zaggard kind of
kind of a cool idea. I also have, uh, well,
what's the almost It almost looks a magazine, but it's
specifically made for reloading revolvers.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Somebody too that
I have. People used to take the thirty eight special
magazine for like the Colt. It was a thirty eight
wadecut or gun, and then Smith and Wesson had one
as well. I've seen people use magazines and thumb. I've

(07:27):
reloaded nine millimeters revolvers with the blog magazines. I believe
of the same principle.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I messed with one of those. I
haven't by no means have I like tested it. I
just wanted to see it in person. Interesting concept. It
does take a lot, It does take up a lot
more space than my traditional little that or my I'm
sure I have another speedstrip somewhere on this table. Yeah,
but yeah, it's It's nice though that people are trying

(07:57):
new things, trying new ideas and trying to get things
to to work. Have an idea and and create something.
That's how we get the cool stuff. And that's not
everything's going to be uh uh, what do you call it? Oh,
Steve is back. Not everything's going to be prize winning? Yes, Steve,

(08:25):
are you here? Hey, you're here? You live? I don't.
Is not my thing?

Speaker 3 (08:35):
Ride horse, get paycheck. I have no idea about this stuff.
I'm in awe of you because of all that stuff
you do in the background. You have this moodcast going
and I see to turn to your to your right
there and type stuff and all this multitasking going on
to me.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
It's like, uh, ride horse, get paycheck man. Yep. So
for those of you watching and you're not familiar with
Steve or High Desert Cartridge, you've been getting a lot
of attention and a lot of attention from people I

(09:11):
consider to be the good guys friends, just some some
really good publicity, and it's I and I, in my opinion,
it's earned. I got hell, I got how about boxes
of your stuff all over the place, and it's cool
to see how things have things progress. Now you have
a new thirty eight round that has just come out,

(09:35):
Tell me about it.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
One hundred and forty grain short burrow. I'm trying to
think who was involved in that. I'm sure Chuck was.
We talked about I think Chuck and I talked about
along with several other people, because you can't find the
short barrel gold dot anymore, and so what can we

(09:58):
do to do something you're not can replicate a gold dot,
but something that will work.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
It was like the gold dot? Am I still there?
And I lose me again? Oh no, you're here. My
screen blinked, Oh gotcha.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
So Chuck was looking at the one forty grain and
then I ran into Bruce Cartwright at revolve around up
last year, the retired FBI guy and he mentioned asked
me if I would look into reviving an older FBI round.
I think they still offer it, I don't. I looked
on the net. They have something, but I don't know

(10:35):
if it's the same. Obviously find not the same one
for the nineties. But the FBI issued a grain i
think silver tip back in the early nineties and it
was by request only had to be approved by not
every carry the thing. I guess that's what that was
what I read about Cordon and Bruce. Anyway, getting back

(10:58):
to short barrow, so short barrel isn't there anymore. I
don't think there's a short barrel cartridge on on the
market right now.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Is there chuck for thirty eight?

Speaker 2 (11:11):
So technically yes, I mean people that uh like if
you look at the critical defense that HORNYY makes okay,
and uh the spear gold dot the one grain I
think they quit call into the shore barrel. Maybe they
got in different boxes, you know. I got a buddy

(11:31):
on NYPD that they have fifty round boxes and it
just says gold dot. But I know it's been marketed
as short barrel. Their their short barrel line does have
some loads that are loaded specifically for shore burrow guns.
My information is that the nine millimeter shore barrel is

(11:53):
just the standard one twenty four grain plus P gold
dot in a different box because it does it. It
worked so well out of a short barrow. The one
thirty five green gold dot plus P was optimized for
snubnosed revolvers and that was developed at Request NYPD. It
just happens also to be an excellent three and four

(12:14):
inch barrel gun carry loader defense load. But as far
as not with a specific name, but there's been a
ton of attempts at short barrel thirty eight snubloads. Remember
one grain Federal NYCLAD was the chief special load. Is

(12:37):
what that got the marketing is that developed specifically for
snowbnos revolvers. Problem with it was it had this mythical
legendary status equip making it and people that were coordinate.
It was a horrible performer. I mean it was just
really a poor performer. It didn't tend to mushroom and

(12:58):
through heavy clothing, and when it mushroom, it would stop
dramatically short, like shallow let's say six or seven inches
of penetration, which is horrible. So there's been a lot
of attempts at things like that that tend to do
rather poorly. Actually, I think.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
A little dot short I'm not sure. Like you said,
I don't know what's what's packaged as. But I keep
hearing on the different forms and the internet pages with
defensive revolvers and different whatever revolving cylinder and whatever discussion
about that. That short barrel gold Dots is almost it's
an untainable. It's not around or they made a short

(13:42):
run of it here I heard recently. I haven't not
seen any but a very short let me just commented.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Mount SGMO has it currently for fifty round boxes for
the one thirty five gold Dot short barrel thirty eight
sixty four cents per round, sixty cents. If you buy
a case, get it while it's high. This episode brought
to you by.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
It tends to sell out very quickly, the three fifty
seven even faster because they don't make much of it.
Part of the problem with Ammo, which I mean, I
know Steve knows, but most people don't know. It's kind
of like Grandma making cookies for Christmas. They will make
runs of Ammo and badges so it'll make a batch

(14:24):
and then it will set up for something else. So
when they have a batch show up, especially something popular
like this, everybody grabs it and it sells out and
then you might have to wait till next year if
you want to buy some.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
That's so anyways, I tried to I tried to make
a short burrow. I ran it at I think Chucky
just tested it. I just I ran it at the
same velocity as the one three five grain plus P,
which runs about eight sixty out of the snow. I
ran mine about eight sixty to seventy and by just

(15:02):
the last batch that I just got off of the
machine here last week, because Chuck and I talked after
he tested some stuff, I might want to poop it
up a little bit. And I did poop it up
a little bit. It's still under plus P. The powder
I use isn't pushing the pressure, so for pressure wise,
we're still.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Under plus P.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
But I'm still getting the velocity out of it, and
so I ran it about I think it's running about
eighty now eighty five.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, it's the one forty short barrel thirty eight I
ran it. Yeah. Yeah, you should have the new batch mark.
Actually I do.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
One day after I went to the ranging tested.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's why it works. Yeah, So I think it's gonna
be a little bit or hotter.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Than the original load because we wanted the chuck and
elaborate on it's testing. But I think we got the penetration.
We want a little bit more expansion out of it
because they're running NEXTP and they're kind of a little
tougher bullet to get to do what we need them
to do. Their power band is definitely in the nine hundreds,

(16:15):
although we can get it to expand, and it definitely
does a good plow job.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Through the wound channel, that's for sure.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
But it's xtps will be.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
What's that A.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
Nine hundred with that bullet on an airweight would be
a little a little spicy, a lot spicy.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, I'm trying not to get it too spicy because
I'm I'm trying it through a six forty two and
it's kind of getting to be unpleasant, and so it's
it's tough to get the XTP to do what it does.
It's not going to look like an HST a nice flower.
It never will not until you hit it about twelve
thirteen and you start getting it finally to really you know,

(16:53):
mushroom out. But but then it's becomes unpleasant to shoot.
But the penetration is amazingly consistent. I can get it.
You know, the thirty two's are down in the upper
eight hundreds. And the consistency with you know, sixteen to
twenty inches is it seemed like it says always there.

(17:13):
Whether I run it through clear jail or FBI ballistic stuff,
it's it's there. Obviously, the mushroom is different between the
two jails, and Chuck and elaborate on that because he
just did a test on that between the two jails.
And but what I like about the XTP is it
if you get it, it's power band.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
The penetration is always going to be there.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Even if you run it through four layers of denim
may not open up, but then it acts pretty much
just like a kind of like a wide cutter, and
it'll just I'll just plow through, but you still don't
get you don't. You'll get a little more penetration, but
it won't overpenetrate. And that's why I like about it.
It will blow the block the first block and stop
in the second block almost every time.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, that's I was going to say, that's what I
consistently see testing that load, Steve's DV load, the three
fifty seven low recoil load, several others. You will see
that consistent band of penetration. Even when you get a
failure to expand, which I'll say is also similar to

(18:21):
that goal dot load. When I have had that failed
to expand, it's still because it has such a wide
MEP plant and it tends to y'all that again, some
of what people look at as a bullet failure often
isn't when you look at the parameters that we are,
what we are trying to get as a sufficient penetration

(18:45):
and things like that.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Why don't we talk about that because we have talked
about it, and we've talked about it, and we've talked
about it. But I want this episode to reinforce these
good concepts. And this can be another thing, another reference.
Someone can go, hey, watch this, and then they might
learn something because this this episode is talking about YouTube ballistics,

(19:08):
misinformation or ads because there's so much misinformation. So we
have four professionals. I was going to say three, but
I'm going to include myself because I should. But no,
outstanding panel to discuss this. What are we looking for
in defense of ammunition?

Speaker 4 (19:25):
Before we start on that, we're mentioned about short barrel lows.
Now if you guys mentioned it, because I was in
late I'm still a big fan of the Georgia Arms. Yeah,
ultimate defense watcutter because it's had a good compromise between
no matter how much someoneary you have, you've got it
gets good penetration. It will get a little bit of expansion,
but it will likely expand because of that zero soft

(19:48):
lead bullet. And that's a decent load for me. It's
a little spicy in the UH airweights with my with
my small stocks, but their PPC load gets similar performance
and about forty five feet per second less and it's
much easier to control. It's right around seven hundred versus
seven fifty.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Well, And one of the factors I want to ultimately
discuss also is the misunderstanding of velocity that while these great,
amazing velocities translate to something tangible, it's not necessarily the case. No,
So I'm going to sit back and just enjoy you
guys lecturing. So, yeah, what are those parameters are? What

(20:31):
should be what should people be looking for in their
defensive ammunition jock, you start.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I tell people well, to start out, you're the
three most important criteria or two most important criteria is
the bullet has to go bang every time. It has
to go bang every time, it has to hit to
your sites accurately, and has to deliver sufficient penetration to

(21:00):
get the job done. After that, when you have all
of those well satisfied, then I start worrying about nuances
of wound ballistics. One of the things that I am
somebody is going to misread this on the Internet. I
am not advocating people carry ball AMMO. I know there's
some smooth brains lately that have done that loudly on

(21:24):
the Internet. And there's a lot of reasons why you
don't want to default to ball Ammo in defensive calibers nowadays.
One is is most of it is bulk pack Ammo
and it is not built to be high quality. It
does not have the quality control. The big Ammo factories
don't do the quality control procedures on that Ammo that

(21:47):
they do on their premium duty Ammo. So you're selling
for lesser quality Ammo. It's just a bad idea. But
so cret a question I hit people with when I'm
talking about this in classes. How many people killed by
small arms fire in World War Two? We're shot with
jacket Hall of point bullets and probably none, but we

(22:09):
can't say for sure because Charles Askins was involved, and
he would do things like handload AMMO and then go
test it on the back, So there's a possibility. There's
a few. He wrote about shooting a Nazi shoulder that
Nazi soldier through his ruck with a handloaded thirty eight
that he was carrying at the time, so you know,

(22:31):
there could have been a jacket Hall two. But I
kind of make the point in that it's not that
the AMMO doesn't work, and so where you are trying
to fine tune the nuances of this to do the
job at the best possible case. A lot of people worry.
Look at they worry about expansion, They worry about things

(22:53):
like over penetration, and they want a really pretty bullet
that comes out of these ads, or they want dramatic
stuff if they're looking for magic beans like the RIPMO
is a classic case of just packaged bullshit designed to
take people's money from them. It gives the opposite of

(23:16):
what we want from ballistic performance. So when I talk
about m has to go bang every time, has to
hit accurately to your site, has to penetrate deep enough
to get the job done. What I'm talking about there.
A big believer in the FBI criteria is be it mallid.
They go with a minimum of twelve inches, and they
want the bullet to expand about one and a half

(23:37):
times it's caliber. And when you're looking at sand nine
millimeter or something, you know that diameter. You're looking at
bullets that expand above fifty five caliber, typically in like
sixty caliber range. So they got a good wider crushed cavity.
They pop out their criteria eighteen inches. They wanted the

(23:59):
bullet trade between twelve and eighteen inches in FBI calibrated
wom ballistics shell. A lot of people poo poo that
been attacked by a jail block. Anybody that just makes
disparaging comments about ballistic jail as developed by the Army

(24:19):
Womb Ballistics Lab with the presidio when it was headed
by doctor Pack doesn't know what they're talking about. They
shot a lot of anesthetized goats and pigs. Doctor Fackler
was a very experienced combat surgeon in Vietnam, saw lots

(24:39):
of bullet holes and lots of people had access to
Army WOM ballistic studies going back to War War One.
There was a massive study that came out of World
War II after the end of the war on WOM ballistics,
and that Army WOM ballistics laboratory in that study went
long pass through the Vietnam War into modern times. So

(25:01):
they compare shooting a n estetize pigs and esthetize goats.
They look at autopsies, they look at comment surgery reports,
and to validate they didn't just invent ballistic gelatin and
start shooting into the lab. And anybody thinks that has
absolutely no idea what they're talking about. It is one

(25:22):
of the most proven methodologies for ballistic testing. It's completely
valid and it mimics muscle tissue to a tee as
far as penetration expansion characteristics. So all that said, personally,
for my observation on the street, things I like to
see I actually defall to more penetration than less. A

(25:45):
lot of people will see a bullet go over eighteen
inches and call it over penetration. I think that's a
little out of touch for reality. My job, when we
got into nine millimeters, we eventually settled onto one twenty
plus p gold Dott nine millimeter and some of the

(26:06):
commanders when we first got that we were shooting through
people pretty good. The spear, to their credit, redesigned a
bullet for a little more expansion, a little less penetration,
and we were getting optimal performance out of it. And
that's the exact same bullet that's existed that since the nineties.
My old job still using it. Almost everybody we shot,
the bullet went all the way through, popped out the

(26:30):
other side with typically the clothing parachute out, and then
the bullet would dribble out on the ground. So because
the bullet exited, people would think over penetration where we
would just find it laying on the ground within feet
of the guy that got shot. That's not over penetration.
That is a bullet that fully penetrated. Most people don't

(26:52):
know that skin on exit gives a big effect of
degrading penetration. It is equal to penetrating something like four
to five inches of muscle tissue trying to exit skin
because the skin will balloon out and then pop back.
So it's super common, and surgery at autopsy used to

(27:13):
pull bullets out from under the skin on the far
side of the wood trick. But from my observation, having
seen a lot of cases where bullets stopped short, failed
to do the job, could have done a job. One
of the most mist examples is at one fifteen grand
Winchester silver tip that was blamed for some of the

(27:34):
problems at the FBI Miami gunfight nineteen eighty six insufficient penetration.
If it had had more penetration, it would have went
through Platt's heart and shut him down a lot faster,
and they probably wouldn't have had seven FBI agents shot
during the course of that fight. So what I've seen

(27:55):
from hunting, what I've seen on the street, I prefer
more penetration and less so when I have bullets. It's
like when we were talking about the STP penetrating eighteen
twenty twenty two inches of ballistic joe. When we've been
testing it, I'm completely comfortable with that, and I mean
completely comfortable. I think that's a good optimal top and range.

(28:16):
For my observation, I prefer it to get more than
twelve inches. I'm comfortable more like my minimum being like
fifteen to sixteen, but that's that's what i've seen. So
those are the prime I'm looking for. After we achieve
reliability hitting accurately to the sites, and then sufficient penetration

(28:41):
and we have the horsepower to do it, because there's
a lot of guns people carry, like thirty twos and
three eighties that don't necessarily have the horsepower to do it,
or if you want lower recoil and that's you know,
Mark and I are both advocates of really lightweight thirty
eight revolvers loaded with white cutters because white cuts give
very consistent crush cavities and really good performance without expansion.

(29:06):
But when we have the horsepower like say you know,
nine millimeters or forty caliber service pistols, then we want
to have a good expanding bullet because if we don't
get we do get into that over penetration where you
can shoot through You could in theory shoot through two
or three people in a row if even if you

(29:26):
hit your bad guys. So a big plus for bullet
expansion is that mushroom works like a parachute on a dragster.
If the dragster is at the end of the drag strip,
the parachute doesn't pop. What's going to happen drag stars
through the fence, over the hay bales into the cornfield. Right,
that's a mess. We want to avoid that in an

(29:49):
urban environment, which is why I'm segue it back to
when I made that comment about World War Two. I
wasn't advocating people carry service pistols load to a ball
ammo for defense in the United States. That's just silly ass.
Nor do we need to get ball ammo to get
penetration through common barriers like windshields, doors, things like that.

(30:13):
The idea that ball ammunition gives more penetration through hard
barriers is absolutely false because those bullets are not to
penetrate barriers. They're designed to be cheap and the feederal
well and ball ammo does not penetrate car doors or
windshields well as things like a bonded modern bonded or

(30:38):
a copper solid or a controlled expansion bullet. Because when
we look at like.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
Or a hard cast, hardcast lead bullet.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, when we look at critical duty or like HST
where you have the jacket mechanically locked, the bullet. The
STPs like that with that candlelore kind of crips the
jacket into the bullet because it was designed to be
a hunting bullet. Initially, those bullets penetrate a lot of
these hard barriers better than ball AMMO does. So the

(31:11):
idea that you need ball amo to do things like
shoot through light cover is just patently false.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
If I'm not getting, if I'm not blowing at least
a block with my loads, my XTP loads, I'm concerned.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Are we doing anymore? Come on, what's that, Steve?

Speaker 2 (31:32):
It's not.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
What's that?

Speaker 4 (31:36):
SOT A couple of things to forty five hardball as
the you know things, shoot them in hand with it,
they spin around, they fall down, all that crap. That's
not crap, but same token. A lot of people blame
it for over penetration. We used hardball both in our
department and the Sheriff's office, and while we only had
one shooting with hardball and the Sheriff's office had many,

(32:00):
rarely did the bullet over penetrate, and if it did,
it was usually spent as it over penetrated. The one
case in our town, lady pointed a gun and officers
and they engaged her. She was not a big lady.
She was actually very small. She was wearing light clothing,
and the bullet while one stayed inside her body, the

(32:21):
other one over penetrated, and all it did was hit
a piece of paneling, and you could see the base
of the bullet, so it would have been a very
shallow wound had it hit out. Sheriff's Department had one
literally at point blank range, contact distance, and a deputy
fire four rounds of Winchester hardball into a guy just
below his sternum. So it actually hits this night, but
soft tissue. The bullets over penetrated all three of them did.

(32:45):
One of them hit a dryer, dented a little bit
and then bounced on top. Second one hit a deputy
who was behind him in the vest, did nothing, and
then third one hit below the vest into the tail.
The t shirt tailed.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
That's on it.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
And while he was minally wounded, when they went to
look at the wound and they pulled his shirt up,
it popped out like a pimple. And that was at
point blank range, and they definitely was less than two
feet behind. So usually forty five hardball was theoretically penetrate
it's a lot in jail. It really hasn't proven to
be that way in the street as far as contact,

(33:22):
because loose lands is spent by the time it goes through.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
You can when you look at the performance of gel
you can tell why because that that round nose bullet
is kind of unstable and it yaws. So people think
bullets tumble. They do not tumble. It's not like a
gymnast going across the floor. Bullets will yaw. So think

(33:48):
above your car when it's on ice. With most nine millimeters,
they're going fast enough. It's like your car on ice.
If you don't countersteer, you typically see it y'all one way,
it'll flip the other way and then you're backwards driving
down the road because you didn't countersteer. Mark and I
see that kind of behavior at around those bullets all

(34:09):
the time. What the forty five tends to do because
the size the o guy of how it's built is
it will just yall through a GEL block and it
will fishtail all the way through and come to rest. Well,
when it's going through that yaw cycle, it's exhibiting quite
a bit more drag, so that slows it down quite

(34:31):
a bit, which explains why the level of penetration that
we see is congruent with the behavior we see in gelatin.
You get less penetration and people then you do in
a homogeneous substance like that sometimes because you have that
parachute effect of the skin or people not being homogeneous.

(34:53):
So when I said previously that you know, gelatin is
ballistic test media we have. When you have an inconsistent
test media which people are, you will give a wider
range of results in penetration. That's to be expected. It

(35:13):
just is if I was to make a gelatin block
with more air bubbles in it than normal, then you
would get more penetration than less. You know. But when
we're talking about bullet behavior like well, nine millimeters NATO,
because it's so it yaws violently and it yaws so reliably,

(35:36):
tends to have quite a bit of penetrate, quite a
bit less penetration, and a lot of people would initially guess.
And I have seen cases on the street where I've
seen people with a punctate entrance wound because round those
makes a small wound, and then the exit wound is
wide and it looks like a stab wound with a
big knife. It's because you could tell the bullet exited

(35:57):
sideways out of the dude. But what Mars talking about
with forty five ACP and this will make some people angry.
If you look at the Army Surgeon General's report that
came out of World War II, one of the recommendations
was that we do away with the forty five because

(36:20):
the penetration was insufficient for battlefield conditions because one of
the things that they figured out was you lose two
hundred feet per second just penetrating the skin on entrance,
and of forty five at battlefield conditions is only running
by the time it hit somebody's in the seven hundred
feet per second range. So they advocated that we do

(36:44):
away with the forty five and go to a smaller,
higher velocity caliber. I know a lot of people the
two World Wars people will be unhappy to hear that,
but that's what the Army Surgeon General's official report recommended.

Speaker 4 (36:57):
That mean it's correct, but nonetheless I understand. Yeah, Well,
we also used for the nine millimeter at the time,
we're using one to fifteen grain federal jack of the
hollow point non plus P and that same shooting I
was discussing about that female. One of the bullets against
State Insider expanded reliably. The other one expanded slightly but

(37:19):
over penetrated and hit the wall and actually was incorrect
that it hit the wall and stuck and in space
was sticking out. The forty five actually bounced off the
wall in the same shooting with the same loads our
same individual and hitting there in the chest. So it
just depends on what on what you hit, depends on

(37:40):
where you shoot them, and that's that to me, I
think charget shot placement, Chuck, you didn't add that in
there is extremely critical because none of these things are
going to stop physologically if they aren't putting the right spot.
Psychologically they made but if they're not putting the right spot,
they're not gonna They're not gonna stop people. You don't
have to shoot them again.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
One of the things Chuck brought up was yaw. Talking
to my buddy Everyone's put Everyone's favorite fish Cop, John
the fish Cop not too long ago, and we were
talking about hollow bases versus solid bases and the potential
of YAW and same with certain rifle rounds because it's
so much lighter in the front heavier in the back.
Objects tend to want to yaw and rotate having the

(38:25):
heavier end go forward. Can you guys comment on that.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
I'll talk about windcutters because that's a hollow baseball and
obviously I've extensive testing on it. They don't unless it
hit something along the way. The example was I was
shooting four layer denim for wadcutter testing and mistakenly had
a seam of the genes. I had hit the whole

(38:52):
gene and the whole scene, but it hit half the gene,
half of it out as soon as it hit that,
it made that thingspen and only once and it inverted.
Otherwise I have not seen wand cutters do that. There
was a guy on YouTube who did a thing with
fourteen layers of clothing trying to simulate heavy clothing, and

(39:13):
the material he was using had a lot of seams
in it, and the test was inconsistent because at least
I believe it was because you couldn't articulate what he
hit within that bash of clothing he had. He hit
a seam that's going to cause the bullet to do
a completely different thing than if it goes through just
the clothing itself. So seams make a big difference, and

(39:34):
that makes the clothing thicker.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
And it's a variable that's not normal testing.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
See what.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
And it's a variable that's not normally something that's in testing.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
You don't write. You can do that. I mean in
the real world it's going to happen, but you can't
be you can't say this is what's going to happen
because of that. It depends on what you hit. And
that's what I was messing the fact that did you
hit that Chuck was messing about. Skin slows bullets down,
so does clothing. I'm I'll finishing definitively here very soon.

(40:07):
But four layers of denim if you shoot through it,
I'm so far finding that right now, it's about between
twenty five and forty feet per second reduction velocity just
shooting the four layers of dentim, which is the innation
one ballistic standards. So if that's the case, when you
got a bullet that's traveling sixteen or somebody six hundred
feet per second, you're dropping off forty per second, you're

(40:30):
gonna have a lot less velocity. So that's why some people,
I believe have trouble with some of the watercutter loads
and say that they're ineffective. It depends on what watercutter
you're using and what it's there, so hollow point wise,
I'm I'm a big fan of the thirty five grains
and I think they do well grill lots. But we've
seen it in our gel testing at the revolt around

(40:51):
up where through denim they don't expand. And I don't
think it's so much they're plugging as we used to think.
I think it's actually being slowed down below the threat
threshold out of a short barrel gun. And that's the
bottom line. And when you talk about using a short
barrel gun, especially revolvers, we've got to consider a lot
of factors. One of those factors is cylinder gap. If

(41:12):
your cylinder gap is larger, you're not going to say
performance that everybody else is getting. If you've got a guy,
it's not one that's got a tighter cylinder gap. You
mean different performance in it, and that that is going
to make a difference too.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
I get that quite a bit.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
People say I tested your AMMO and it's not doing
what the velocity, and I go on. There's several different things.
First of all, the thriats in your cylinder. Then you
get the.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Gap timing if you're shaving a let or whatever. And
then you have altitude.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
And that's a big thing I've found even between Brian
and I and other people test and I'm at twenty
three hundred feet a second or twenty three hundred elevation
and Brian's down at eleven hundred and I get people
down a sea level, yes, yeah, your yeah, And those
are variables and very real variables.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
People need to take an.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Account and so you know, I when I test my
I'm sorry, I'm not going to be running down to
the coast and running up to the mountains, you know,
to test at different elevations.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
But yeah, a lot of us what's that what.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
We got off? You've got youah, chuck it suit or
about eight hundred feet you got me up a mile high.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
So you know, we can.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Well one another variable like a couple of times we've
been at gun Sight it's been well below freezing. Yes,
you get below free like what I've noticed with and
I'm not picking on that. I like that gold dot
load one gold dot, but between summer and winter, you'll
you can change at least fifty feet per second right there.

(42:42):
So let's say you are using a snub as a
coat pocket gun in cold weather. You're using that load
it's below freezing. Now you've lost fifty feet per second.
Now you have to shoot through heavy clothing, you've lost
another fifty to seventy five fee per second. It could
be that bullet drop below it's expansion threshold, and then

(43:05):
people look at it as a bullet failure because bullet
didn't expand. Well, when that bullet hit point of aim,
it hit with a nose like a cookie cutter. It
cut a whole eighteen inches deep, yawned sideways on the way,
and came in backwards. So it was functionally a wide cutter.
That's not a failure. Did it fail to completely open

(43:26):
like it was designed?

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Did the bullet fail to do the job that we
wanted to do when we have to shoot things with bullets? No,
not necessarily. I wouldn't mind jumping back to something that
Matt mentioned about inconsistency. One of the biggest one of
the biggest problems that I see with the YouTube stuff
is you have people that go buy ballistic, they buy

(43:50):
clear Jael not knowing the limitations of the clear jail mark,
and I have used it enough to know it is
not as temperature in sense as they claim it to be.
And then batch to batch variability is definitely a thing.
So just because you have a clear jail block that
looks just like another clearer jail block doesn't mean you're

(44:12):
going to get the same penetration and performance parameters out
of that. I have found the exact same gel block
at seventy something degrees versus thirty degrees will give radically
different levels of penetration with the exact same load in
the exact same block. So the problem we have on
YouTube is you have people with no education and what

(44:34):
they're doing buying a block of clear jail, launching one
or two bullets into it, and making sweeping conclusions on this.
So that load, that that one fifteen grade Federal nine millimeters,
one of the old school loads. It was the Federal
high shock that MARKA had talked about. In FBI testing

(44:57):
and International win Ballistics Association testing, we found there was
about a twenty percent failure to mushroom, So one out
of five shots you shoot would not open up at
all because that bullet was right on the thresholder performance,
and you know, when you fire a bullet, it's not
it was designed for, let's say eleven hundred fet per second.

(45:19):
Anybody that expects it's always going to hit eleven hundred
fet per second has a chronic grab a lot of ammo.
There's going to be natural variability. So if it's designed
for eleven hundred pet per second, maybe it's ten seventy five,
the next one to eleven ten. We got eleven fifteen,
we're down to ten eighty. That that's normal variation. I
know guys like Steve try to really shrink that standard deviation,

(45:42):
but is what it is. So that one fifteen Grande
Federal we know from extensive past testing, has a twenty
percent failure rate to expand. So if you're a YouTube
tester and you shoot one and it doesn't expand, or
if you shoot one and it does span, you can't
make sweeping conclusions off of a sample that's small. It's

(46:04):
just absolutely ridiculous. I was made aware of a particular
guy that unfortunately has a very popular channel right now,
talks Goofy wears silly ass hats, tends to fire one
or two rounds into a block. Sometimes it's really really

(46:24):
well shot up, and then he will come to wide
ranging conclusions off of his observation. One of those I'm
told was recently he had gotten a hold of some.

Speaker 4 (46:38):
Of the.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Bring it his border I think his Customs of Border Patrol.
It's a version of the gold Dot two bullet. It's
black in collar, has a shoulder, it's a polymer in
the nose. It's clear, so it's not red like the
hornet ey. But everybody knows like the critical defense of
the polymer tip bullets so well that version that bullet

(47:02):
is currently used by LAPD. Versions of the G two
are used by LAPD, Naval Special Warfare, and Customs of
Border Patrol along with other people. It is proving to
be an outstanding load with outstanding performance. Somewhere in the world.
Almost every day somebody is getting shot with one of

(47:24):
those bullets and they're working really well. But the dude
on YouTube using clear jail, firing one or two shots
and wearing goofy hats had one fail to expand, so
he's telling everybody what a horrible performing bullet that is,
not knowing the limitations of clear jail or even what
he's looking at when he looks at it. So one

(47:49):
of the things that prompted Matt to ask everybody here
for this one is I just did a little bit
of ballistics experimentation. And I know Steve and I have
talked at length about but the rest of the world doesn't.
One of the problems that I've noted what clear jail
is when you add heavy clothing, and I will use
that generically as a term along with four layer dentim.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Is.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
My theory was because what I was seeing differences on
the street, differences in true FBI International and Ballistics Association
spec ordnance gel which is made out of it's a
collegid base, it's a gelatin based substance. The difference between
that and clear jail. I was seeing bullets fail to
mushroom that I know don't have a problem with failing

(48:35):
the mushroom, like one forty seven Green hst is one
of those bullets outstanding performer on the street, works really well,
tests really well, but I've seen a few of them
fail to expand through four layer DNIM and clear jail,
so and that's odd. My theory was that clear jail,
the velocity expansion threshold for clear jail and bullis to

(48:57):
perform was much higher than it is in legitimate FBI
specification ten percent ballistic shelton, and so I had been
seeing some of that with Steve's dB load. The three
fifty seven magnum low recoil load. That STP bullet opens

(49:18):
up very nicely in bare clear jail. It does not
open up and bear clear jail through four layer denim
or even lighter clothing barriers like four layers of cotton
T shirt was enough to cause it to fail to mushroom.
So I wanted to test this. So I made some
small blocks three inches deep of ten percent organic ballistic gelatin,

(49:43):
and my test parameters were I took my two and
three quarter inch GP one hundred, and I launched the
dB load, who was for Darryl Bulky. If people don't know,
into clear jail opens up, works great, four layers of
T shirt. Bullet fails to mushroom, and I'm on the
same clear jail block. Take the same T shirt, the

(50:04):
same clear jail block. I put a three inch block
of organic gelatine behind the T shirt in front of
the clear jail block. Now with the bullet that failed,
a mushroom through the T shirt into the clear Jael.
When it hits the T shirt, the four layers a
T shirt, and it hits the organic gel, it mushrooms

(50:25):
beautifully and perfectly, and then carries it goes through the
three inches and then carries onto the clear JAEL. So
I wanted to see that variable. So what this tells
me is that the threshold for expansion for that bullet
in organic jail FBI type JEL is what Hornety says

(50:45):
it is. It goes down into the eight hundred feet
per second range. Because Steve, you got that loaded what
nine thirty five something like that at dB.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Low the XTP about nine thirty five for the tmj okay,
So over wanted to give the extra Yeah, I wanted
to give the XTPT. It's a little more threshold of
poop to make sure that you know, if it goes
through some kind of a barrier or something still, if
it has a loss, it's still going to be within
its powerband.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah. So I'm going to do some more of that.
But I did that with the dB load and I
tested the thirty two h and R mag as well
from my two inch elsea are that the one grain
that Steve loads which I really like because it heads
dead to the sites out of that gun, and I'm

(51:34):
gonna start carrying it as a backup gun. So the
exact same thing bullet mushrooms beautifully into kind of a
jagged wadcutter when it hits clear jail fails to mushroom
and the four layers of T shirt over clear jail.
If I add the four layers of T shirt with
the organic jail, and why did I just use a

(51:54):
three inch block, quite frankly, because it's a lot easier
than making an entire sixteen inch block of ordnance jail.
And we know that jacket a hollow points when they
open up, open up in the first half inch three
quarters of an inch two inches of organic the FBI
type jel is enough to open up a jacket at

(52:15):
hallow point. There's pictures of you can see a bullet
coming in. There's a two inch slice of ballistic jail.
There's one famously on the cover of Evan Marshall's Stopping
Power Book. It's a forty five hyder shot and you
see where it came in, and it's coming out the
other side of the two inch jail block fully mushroomed.

(52:35):
So we know that what Gary Robers talks about the
neck length, you want to see the short neck length
when you're having this kind of bullet performance. I knew
three inches of if it was going to work, that
was going to do it. And it's a lot. It's
a lot easier to make a consistent batch of small
three inch blocks of gelatine than one giant block of

(52:58):
sixteen inches of gelatin to prove my point. So that
is cool. So what I did was again into the
clear jail, clear jail with four layers of T shirt
and then clear jail, four layers of T shirt, organic
gelatine into the clear jail.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Three inches of it, I'm sorry, three inches of the organic.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yes, just enough to make it open up. If it
was going to open up, that was going to do it.
Mark asked me, well, why didn't you Why didn't you
test the four layer of dentim if blatant Odyssey. When
I was packing, I forgot my dnim. It was sitting
right there and I walked off without it.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
So just go to kmart, get two legs, fuld them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Uh so I'm going to replicate that with four layers
at DNIM. But what it told me was a lot
about the limitations of bullets and clear jail. Any bullet
that's going less than one thousand feet per second is
going to see that issue pop up that I'm talking.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
About if an expanding bullet.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yes, expanding bullets for non expanding bullets, I have seen
this even in well developed bullets like one seven grand
hst out of a glock forty three failed to expand
a clear jail through four layer dentum. And we know
that that bullet actually works on the street. So if

(54:24):
your test doesn't mimic reality, reality is not the problem
that That's just that's a fact. So throwing that out
there that a lot of the YouTube testing that you
see is yeah, it really didn't prove anything, And people

(54:46):
are making wide ranging conclusions on minimal information at very
very small sample sizes and coming to conclusions that they
quite frankly don't have the education to come to. Just
throwing that out there, no love it. Nor is something
like shooting groceries going to necessarily be a valid ballistic test.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
What the Bologney test, that's all I've seen.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I've seen Bologna acts.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
It's interesting. It gives a different perspective on it. It
probably beats water jugs by themselves, although water jugs if
you do it correctly, or cartons, uh, cardboard cartains. Some
of the folks who are involved with doctor Factor have
come out and said, you know, you get the right
you know, milk cartons and use that you can actually

(55:39):
come up with some good parameters to make a good
valid test. McK perrison talks about his water his fifty
five water borol test that he does or did, and
there's other things you can do with it. Our friend
Mike Wood from the Revolver Guy did a great series
of articles for I believe it was Police one or

(56:00):
one of the magazines comparing actual Ordinage Jael to Clear
Ballistics with Horned Day and their laboratories side by side,
making them both at the time, and found the differences
in there were talked about expanding bullets. My testing in
the with Tholible is the wadcutter testing I've done, because

(56:20):
Clear Ballistics is the easier to use, but I also
have relied on other focus materials from it. I find
that you might get an inch or more penetration than
you Clear ballistics than you do with ordinance jail, but
not much Chuck and I did a test last roll
up around up where I shot a six inch Model
ten with a Black Hills wadcutter and it went fifteen

(56:45):
and a quarter inches. Black Hills shooting their originage gel
and their testing in our video went fifteen inches. I've
got Blast Brass fetcher who does a lot of blistic
testing as a professional lab. He showed the Federal wood
cutters going, let's say, I've got it down here through

(57:06):
heavy clothing and heavy clothing with fourteen point eight and
sixteen inches in bare Joel, I've got it going eighteen
and a quarter through heavy clothing and nineteen inches, so
about two inches difference, maybe three inches difference in penetration,
but not that much. And that was just one test

(57:27):
with one load, you know all. I always say all
wood cutters are not the same, and that's that's a fact.
They're just not the same, whether velocity material are made from,
et cetera. Steve just produced a new one cutter which
I'm excited about, which has a non jacket or non
plated wad cutter bullet but coated. Then I'm going to

(57:49):
give a try and see how it works here. When
I get the next time I go out, Like I said,
I miss it by one day. It came in the
day after I finished off the last batch of testing.
So we'll get a tested, but it'll be a few weeks
before you get a chance to go back out again.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
So in the way, this is mark your book is
never going to come out because people are going to
keep coming out with wad cutters, and I hate you
guys for it. I am done, Okay, you know I'm
done making wad cutters until that one comes out.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
All right, Thank you Steve. Volume two. So I got
a question for you guys, and then we'll take a
quick little break, and then I want to get into
what exactly should people be looking at with GEL testing.
What are the what are the variables, what are the factors?
So my question for you guys is when you look
at that box of AMMO and it says velocity, it

(58:37):
says all this kind of stuff, is any of that
uh standardized? Or are some more my neck of the
woods and the others is others are underwater? And because
we've already discussed how altitude, whether all kinds of things
can that can alter this, So is there a standard
for that when they're saying this velocity, I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
I mean, look at I think you guys had a
it was on that that last moodcast. You had a
couple of whatever on the forty five colt and Mark
and dB did that test on that forty five colt
that I have. It's just a standard for the old
cult you know, single action armies. It was low, low
pressure or whatever. That thing blew two blocks, you know,

(59:23):
at seven hundred and low seven hundreds in the velocity,
And so design of the bullet.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
Is a factor as well. It has to be put
in there.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
So when you see look at velocities whatever, it's just
a piece of the pie. But I need to look
at that piece of the picture. I need to look
at the whole picture. What's the what's the bullet design,
what's the shape of the bullet, and what's it you know,
what's it zipping out at? And then you guys can
you know time after that? But that's what I look at.
Just because you have that doesn't tell me anything. I mean,

(59:53):
tells me something, But it's just a part of the picture.
It's not the whole picture.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Matt so Box velocities nominal from a test barrel, like
for thirty eighths with a vented what they did when
the if you look at V four on when it's
talking about the barrel length, that's a lab barrel that
they use, and they get they want a pressure test
so it's safe, and then they want they have velocity parameters.

(01:00:24):
They go for the old People think they downloaded AMMO
nowadays because we're weak and we're pansies, and back in
the old days they loaded stuff to manly pressures. They
what they did was like for a revolver AMMO, they
had a non vented test barrel, So what they came
up with was a vented test barrel four inches to

(01:00:45):
mimic an actual service revolver because those old test barrels
were seven and a half inches in many of these calibers.
So that's going to give you quite a bit more velocity,
which gives you bragging rights to the catalog. But then
now the kronas are common, a lot of people will
go test their own AMMO, so AMMA. He was kind

(01:01:07):
of controversial, especially in a tactical realm, but I actually
kind of liked the guy's videos. Paul Harrel had a
whole monologue on chronographs about not all chronographs agree and
you have variabilities, and there's this. He did that as
a disclaimer every one of his videos just to give
people a hint that elevation, humidity, temperature for the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Day to set snipers about that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
You know, I have seen where like there's a dude
that does and what is the guy's name? I'm forgetting
the channel now, but he does a pretty good job
a chronograph and AMMO, and he will often find that
like the four something inch clock nineteen will give a
higher velocity than his Baretta ninety two with the five

(01:01:58):
inch barrel, because that the these are variables that we see.
Like one thing that I noticed is some of my
Ruger revolvers will consistently give higher velocities than a Smith
Wesson or a Colt. I think it has to do
with life. It has to do with chick. Yeah, rifling, twist,
the bore diameter right, walking ten thousands of an inch

(01:02:21):
bore diameter variability, All of these variables are at play.
So when you look at the box velocity, it's nominal.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
So I'll thought of that too. Colts have always shot
faster than Smith and West revolvers. If you look at
any articles. Back in the seventies, sixties and seventies, Colts
always added faster their bore diameters smaller than the smith.
Their rifling was faster than smith. Smiths are always standard
up an eighteen point three quarter inch. It's rifling for

(01:02:52):
almost universal for thirty eight special or almost any Smith
and West revolver where cold at the time when you
need one in fourteen twist and a much tighter more
and will as we go faster, we're talking about more,
We're going to a couple of thousands of financh. But
still that makes a difference in velocities the ruders with
we're talking about the lcrs. Everyone in a sixteen inch

(01:03:14):
twist with a tighter more than the Smith and Western revolvers.
And that's another reason for difference differences and velocities. You
cannot rely on the box, that's the fact. And chronographs
do change. I have three different chronographs and none of
them come out exactly the same each time you shoot around,
even though they're right next to each other. And I

(01:03:35):
shoot through them either the lab radar that my mind's
the department, but the radar one, or I shoot through
two sized sky screens. They don't come out the same,
and it's just there's there's too many variables in there.
We need to get some parameters and some minimals, minimal
ideas of it, which whether I'm going in for my
book is what the minimal velocity is better get performance

(01:03:57):
that you want to expect it, and that's that's the
best we can do with it. Your cylinder gap is
going to make I need to emphasize that it makes
a big difference on the guns to bury the cylinder
gap forty ft per second. The difference velocity is not uncommon.
I tested eight different six I'm sorry, ten different six
forty twos, same guns, same barrel length, same everything. Not

(01:04:21):
one of them had the same velocities, even though some
of them even had the same cylinder gap. But I
went from an four for one up to one point
one zero for another, and that forty to fifty ft
per second difference in velocity was noticeable. So these are
things that people need to take into account when they
do it. Temperature really affects it. Whether you leave your

(01:04:43):
doing your testing that day and you're out in the
sun and you leave your ammunition in the sun, you're
going to get a much higher velocity than you would
if you're carrying on your person and or out in
whatever weather you're in. So these are all really big
variables that people need to account in there. Come up
with a general standard from you know, folks that make

(01:05:04):
a reliable performance for it, and then you can go
with the ideas on what you're going to get out
of your gun. Mike Venturro gun writer who recently passed away.
One of the things that I liked about him and
appreciate it is he never published velocities because he said,
because my velocities will not be the same as your velocities,
so therefore, I'm not going to publish these things because

(01:05:24):
there's too many variables in there, and we've seen this
over and over again. And I respected that that he
would not publish those during his testing because people expect
the same. I was that way. I expected to be
the same as I'm doing my own testing. What do
you mean it's not doing you know onet per second?
I only doing you know, nine and seventy five? Why
is that so? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Anyway, if you guys be out here watching this, are
like handloaders. You know, for many years you look at
these handloading the books, you know, whichever our CBS, spear whatever,
and some of them wouldn't even you know, throw a
test barrel out there, and they have these velocities, and
some would when you look at the head of the

(01:06:08):
chapter for a certain caliber nine millimeters running out like
an ag inch barrel.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Now, who's shooting a nine millimeter out of an age barrel?

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
I mean now, I mean, now you get the master
caliber exactly right. But before then I'm thinking, what that's
not even realistic to even why let's you know, let's
get on the on the playing field here. So there's
a lot of different problems here with that. The values

(01:06:39):
are all over the board, and so you have to
have a constant and you know, people were talking about
was on a have a discussion with a guy on
one of his Facebook pages.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
He came out, I can't remember the name of the
mL company. I asked him.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
When he shot his stuff? I think I mentioned I
sent that thing to Chuck. I said, you've heard of
this company before. This is this ball point it's what's it? No,
it's I can't remember the name of it. But the
thing really expanded. I mean, this is like huge, but
the little tiny fingers and all this kind of stuff whatever, And.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I said, would you shoot that through?

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
And he goes a hog, I'm going I like to
see it through an FBI test, And he was just
we went on and on about the FBI test. You know,
I've never been attacking budget. Yeah, I never attacked by
jail whatever else.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
And then.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Yeah, finally he was like, well, you know they didn't
pull out of their caboos when they when they came
up with that jail that that was you know, done
over a period of long period of time and get
that to replicate the best they could to flesh and whatever.
And then finally I had to say, you ever heard
of Doc Roberts. Yeah, I kind of have, I said,
so I played that. I sent him that clip and
you had him on the last moodcast where he came

(01:07:46):
on for like what thirty minutes or forty five minutes whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
And what's that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Yeah, when he went on about how that was, it was,
it was very good. And then and then the two
tests that he came up with that he recommends it
every you know, four layers of denim and windshield. That's
you know, if a bullet's going to do that in
those two mediums. It's going to do it, and so

(01:08:13):
I said. So finally he conceded. He goes, I don't
think our bullets would pass the FBI test. I said, okay,
fair enough. He admits that. That's awesome, but I yeah,
I was. I said, I respect that. But I said
to just poo pooh that. I said, there is a
value there. That is a standard across the board that
everybody's been using and then not only but using it,

(01:08:36):
but people are using it, are evaluating it and getting
the test results in a value them properly.

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
Okay, not just you know show. Because a lot of
manufacturers make two different kinds of loads. They may give
Horney to an example. They make Horny makes their critical
defense rounds to meet two of the FBI's criteria for
their FBI testing bear gel and heavy clothing or critical duty.

(01:09:06):
They make it so it will penetrate the steel, the windshield,
the wood, the sheet rock. So manufacturers make different AMMO
for different criterias. My thirty eight special wadcutters will not
do well on a windshield. I know that, but that's
not why I carry them. I don't carry them because
I'm gonna shoot through people's windshields with them. That's not
the purpose. It is up close and personal what I'm using.

(01:09:29):
If I was going to go back on duty and
have it potentially go against somebody sitting in a car,
then yeah, I carry something different than I have, But
I also carry a different gun than I carry now.
So that FBI criteria people use that, it's kind of
like mill spec. It's very inebulous specification because manufacturer, well

(01:09:51):
this meets mill spec. We'll say a magazine this means
you know US military mill spec. Well, yeah, the finish does.
Nothing else in the magazine does. But because they say
that that makes one thing, the finish makes it, they say, well,
this magazine makes misspec. It's a very nebulous term that
people utilize, and we need to make sure we're clarifying
on that as to what will and will not work

(01:10:12):
on the whole FBI protocol testing, Border patrols protocol testing.
They don't test everything the FBI does, and their penetration
requirements are eight inches to twelve inches. That's what they
ideally want to have, unless that's changed since I've read last.
But they're just having a different way they're performing the ammunition.
So there's a lot of different ways to do it,

(01:10:34):
and there's no one, I say one right way. When
you look at stuff that happens on the street, we
look at stuff that we can test. The bullets that
work on the street, how are they performing the gael
and then we shoot other bullets into the jail off
it performed the same way as it does in the gel.
With the one that works on the street. We can
make some articulation that that bullet may perform, but until
we actually shoot it on the street, we're not going

(01:10:55):
to know for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
With that mind, we will take a quick little break
under two minutes, refill those drinks if you can make it.
If you can get a bathroom break in this amount
of time, you might win a metal. But this is
going to be a minute thirty eight ish seconds. We'll
cut out just really quickly and then we'll be right back.
So there we go. Lucky Gunner carries Ammo for sale

(01:11:22):
and only offers in stock cheap Ammo with fast shipping.
Whether you're looking for rifle Ammo and gun Ammo, rim
fire Ammo, or shotgun Ammo, you've come to the best
place on the internet to find it all in stock
and reded ship. Lucky Gunner also has the popular Lucky
Gunner Labs, which provides side by side comparisons of the

(01:11:43):
best defensive ammunition available today. If you need ammo, and
really we all do, check out Luckygunner dot com. Hey,
this is primary and secondary's AI system.

Speaker 5 (01:11:53):
Filster kicked off by producing high quality holsters and in
depth instructional videos on YouTube. Currently, Filter create industry setting
usable trends with their designs. With that same mission of
effective concealment in mind, they've expanded a substantial library of
educational content on concealed carry techniques and best practices. Now
they've even got phil They're own aisisted to help you
navigate all those options and pay what works best for you.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
For more information, visit Filsterholzters dot com. Walter is the
performance leader in the firearms industry, renowned throughout the world
for its innovation since Carl Walther and his son Fritz
created the first blowback semi automatic pistol in nineteen oh eight. Today,
the innovative Spirit builds off the invention of the concealed
carry gun with a PPK series by creating the ppq

(01:12:36):
pps and the Q five match steel Frame series. Military,
police and other government security groups in every country of
the world have relyed on the high quality, craftsmanship and
rugged durability of Walter products. Walter continues its long tradition
of technical expertise and innovation in the design and production
of firearms. For more information, visit walterarms dot com. So

(01:13:01):
during that little break, I got to play with my lipsies, Ruger,
Redhawk and forty five Cold. I'd show you, but it
would kill the feed. So that's what YouTube does. But
I do have some of Steve's forty five colt right here.

Speaker 4 (01:13:20):
I really I really enjoyed Brian with a Y, our buddy,
Brian with the y. He said something today that just
made me chuckle. He said, there's a renaissance with the
forty five colds, and we're like, it never left.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
I think it's gotten attention that it didn't get before.

Speaker 4 (01:13:40):
Okay, I think it's because he discovered it and he's
addressing stuff on YouTube. But forty five Cold has been around.
It's one of our oldest cargoes and it's a cowboy
ever died. It's been used by patent used it in
World War Two, and I used it well up into
the seventies used on their agency.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Yeah, that was a sweat gun and for me, I
have never given a second thought until you guys started
talking about it in that chat. I thought, this is amazing.
We need to do a podcast on it. And you
guys did it, and that was That is one of
my favorite episodes.

Speaker 4 (01:14:17):
It was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
It was such good information. And then I had to
take off and you guys kept on going and I
re listened to just that part and it was amazing.
Absolutely loved it and shooting my Okay, so it is
up there.

Speaker 4 (01:14:31):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
My raging my tourist Raging Hunter forty four mag with
full mag loads. It's it's a decent shooter, decent recoil.
It's not too bad. I can shoot it one handed
without any issue. I would go, I'd shoot that one
handed and then I'd shoot this forty five Filipsy's Red
Hawk Man. The forty five is awesome. I really like

(01:14:52):
shooting that. It's just cool.

Speaker 4 (01:14:54):
It's a cool gun.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Yeah, they are. So a question came up in chat.
So we have live chat. So if you're listening, this
is being If you're listening, you are in the future.
If you're watching you're in the present right now. We're
recording on YouTube. There is a live chat going on
and someone was asking about chronographs. Last episode we did

(01:15:16):
discuss them a bit. Why don't we get it? Why
don't we cover chronographs as how they relate to testing
and how YouTube people are using it? Because we just
talked about how they are all those different variables. What
about the devices themselves and what are the ones that
you guys are using and what have you found to
be working best for your needs.

Speaker 4 (01:15:39):
Okay, I'm using the garment, which is relatively new to me.
The downside of the garment is I can't do any
gel testing with it because it has to have at
least fifteen to twenty yards distance from the bullet before
it picks it up. I've had an old chrony back
back in the late eighties. I bought this thing and

(01:16:01):
it still works well. I'm trying to think of the
current one I've got, which is, oh, guys, I can't
remember the name of it. You guys may remember it,
but it's it's it's a very common chronograph and it
seems to be very accurate and very reliable. Use with
it really just comes down to what you know what

(01:16:21):
you do. You come up with it, but whether it's
acronaut you really won't know. And that's the fact. I mean,
you don't know if it's if it's giving you true
readings or not unless you've got something that you can
base it on based on past experience. Whether acrooraut is there.
But you'll see chronographs, at least with the such sky
screens you'll fire. Sometimes you go like, why did do that?

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
What?

Speaker 4 (01:16:45):
Why did I get this this velocity out of this
thing when I haven't had any all that day? And
it just has me how the sun hiss the screens
and the way the bullet goes. So, but most of
the chronographs out there now are pretty reliable for that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
I'll look up.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
I'll look up while I'm talking to you guys, to
look up what the name of my chronograph is. It's
one that I think most people utilize, and it's a
pretty good one besides the garmin.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
So go go ahead. So competition is it something competent
dynamics or competition edge or something that's it?

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
So we got four cops here and I'm thicking a
radar and I'm thinking of tuning forks I'm surprised they
don't have something to test out your your chrono to
make sure it's on.

Speaker 4 (01:17:35):
You're just trusting the manufacture that it is. But again,
comparing it side by side with other chronographs, I'm finding
twenty to forty feet per second different. Not much. I mean,
there's not that much difference in it, and it depends
on what's on the radar where it picks it up
because the bullet going down range is going to be
slower than one is leaving the muddle at six feet

(01:17:56):
from the muzzle, so bullets slow down considerable. I'm out
during the time, and the bullet shape has a big
effect that my want gutter slowed down tremendously because of
that blunt shape of the bullet as they're going out
the barrel.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
I saw the one question Matt and one of the
guys asked if that was the best technology for that,
and it pretty much is. I know that, you know,
like the garment and things like that are a modern,
miniaturized version of what the military has been using for
quite some time for things like counter battery fire or

(01:18:36):
when they're doing weapons testing, like you can't put skyscreens
up and then fire one hundred and twenty millimeter sable
around over the top of it at six thousand feet
per sick and they expect it to still be there,
you know, So then we use radar for things like that.
Between the two technologies, I think it's well developed enough
that it's definitely close enough, more than close enough for

(01:19:01):
our purposes for what we need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
Col you know the problem I had with the skyscreen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
I can't remember that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
It wasn't a it wasn't a competitive electronics version of
what I think.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
I can't remember the name of it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
But I would shoot test AMMO in it wouldn't you know,
There'd be no nothing there. It wouldn't even register it.
Or I would see what I do in my test
loads to develop a load, I hand trickle the powder
in so I know they're dead nuts on.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
One to another.

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
I don't use automated powder dropping like that. They're hand
trickled in.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
Every not those.

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
But when I'm testing their hand trickled in and I'm
looking at my sky screen, you know I'm getting fifty
to eighty fe did you know difference in velocity? I go,
that can't be And I was getting fresh chicken first
and then i'd get people call me back, going, hey,
it's not magical. I've got so Finally, I said, so
I just invested in the garment and yeah. I always

(01:20:07):
run back off my berm about twenty yards and shoot
the stuff. And the consistency is it's showing me that
every shot registers. I even went out Pitchableack to see that.
I think, register register. You know, It's like it's just
like a radar. It doesn't matter on the weather, lighting conditions, anything.
It kind of takes it out maybe you know. But

(01:20:28):
the consistency is there. This is what I need that
every shot I take it's going to give me something
feedback instead of all of a sudden nothing, There's just
nothing there. It's like I'm wasting all this AMMO trying
to get my loads developed and I'm not getting feedback.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Then I get through.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
That's the reason why when I do my testing, I
have an airsoft gun. Then I shoot first almost around
it we shoot. I shoot an airsoft gun to make
sure the screens are picking up, and then I will
what it was testing because I have well, I've lost
a lot of money trying to shoot through screens and
not work, and that has worked well for me, and

(01:21:04):
we've done that well if they round up and it
works well. Because truthfully, if a little airsoft gun, a
little sprinkler airsoft gun is more consistent than most of
the guns like shoot, it's part of velocity. It's amazing
that then that little pellots going out the same same
assistant speed out of a spring.

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
Yeah, because when I was when I'm mixing up FBI jail,
it has to be the right temperature and you got
to use the BB at a certain velocity. And so
I got to run it through a chrono to get
to BB at the right you know, sitting and before
I calibrate that jel block with that garment, you know,
every BB counts, every BB has shown everything before I
shoot my gel block for calibrations.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
Right, So that's where I'm at.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
I'm sure there's other chronos out there that are, you know,
just as good. I just that that little garment, you know,
the size of the path, the size of a cell phone.
You know, it comes with its own tripod with you know,
put it out there and just start shooting.

Speaker 4 (01:21:59):
And it's.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
It's a nice it's a.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
Portable, it's it's it's nice for like I said last second,
people saying I got to this little to go.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
Yeah, hang on, I've got my garment right here. Let's
let's set it up.

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
You know, you don't have this big you know box
or this bag you have to have with you know,
back in the older, you know whatever of stuff you
had to set up or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
It's like, you turn it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
On rifle, pistol or whatever and hit the You'll give
you the velocity range and type in the bullet weight.
There you go, hit it, you know five, you know,
a few cup, two, three minutes and it's you know,
your your shooting.

Speaker 4 (01:22:35):
The technology has improved dramatically with that. But again, unfortunately
it doesn't work when you're shooting Joe blocks because you've
got to have that distance involved, and you don't shoot
Joe blocks at that kind of a distance.

Speaker 3 (01:22:46):
Tells me with my dom Yeah, with my garment, I
have to hit velocity first and then go to the
and then go to the job block.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:22:53):
Yeah. I did testing through uh my chronograph and it
is a competition with from onx pro DXL from when
that I utilize. I wanted to see what what cutters
would do in jail at fifty yards out of a
one and seven acient barrel, and so I chronographed it

(01:23:14):
obviously at the muzzle, and then shot the Jael blocks
through the chronograph to get the velocities. And then I
used Sierra's ballistic software with a with a wadcutter bullet
to calculate what the velocity was at fifty yards because
I was getting penetration, it was adequate and meant what
we need to have requirement wise, at fifty yards, still
getting over twelve inches of penetration, which I was surprised.

(01:23:36):
I was actually surprised at that that we're getting that
much penetration with it. So that was through bare jail,
wasn't through four layers of denim, But it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
Was because you forgot it. You forgot that.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
No, I didn't forget it. Had the tea shirt I did.
I didn't have them white enough. And I was shooting
at a target that was twelve inches Why when that
one and seven inchent or sixteen inches? Why which one
and seven inches barel to get a better chance of
it at the distance When I wish.

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
Wide le wide legged genes are popular right now, So
I don't know what's popular. I just see what my.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Daughter, Yeah, yea death before disc go too.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
It's like, well, you.

Speaker 4 (01:24:16):
Know when you used denim chugging and were talking about
this in last phone call we had. Denham comes in
different weights and India Wallistics has their standard of what
they used for denim, and I went out and tried
to find genes that would match as close as I
could to International Womballistics to be able to have a
easy consistent material. And the wrangular rustler genes were the

(01:24:40):
ones that I utilized because they were within a quarter
rounds of what the International used for their staff. I
think that's that's pretty close as I can get anyway
from my chesting and consiste.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
One thing that I think people don't don't realize is
that the FBI their their their clothing tests are actually
specified thread counts.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
For their for their cloth.

Speaker 3 (01:25:04):
And it's like, you know, it's there for a reason,
So that's another variable that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Needs to be added.

Speaker 4 (01:25:12):
It's just the standard, that's that's the idea behind it.
You know, yes, nobody wears four layers in that, we
understand that, but that's not the reason for it. Like
Jux said, it's an industry standard. It's a thing we
can measure consistently through and if it works through that,
then it's probably gonna work through other things. I decided
I'm going to do another test. I'm buying a jean

(01:25:32):
jacket with the pile lining in it, and I'm going
to shoot through that because that is an in clothing
which will bash in what people have. And I also
have an whole letter jacket and I'm going to shoot
up to see what it does, because I've seen a
couple of shootings in my town where guys have shot
through letter jackets, and letter does a number on bullets

(01:25:54):
and the number on projectiles.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
Go full on Canadian tuxedo. As a matter of fact,
that might not be a bad idea. Get a heavier
grade Canadian taxedo your bulletproof because the standards are not
set for that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
Who came up with that term? Here a couple of
podcasts to go about farmer armor. I think I think
I might have missed that one.

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
Was that? And that was on your momcast? Sure it
was was on farm?

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
Was that?

Speaker 1 (01:26:21):
Was it that forty five? I think it was on
the forty five podcast? Why they came up with a
farmer armor or something like that? Listening you should be
jumping in right now. Yeah, I mean I've got there's
out here.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
I live out eastern Washington and it gets down to
single digit sometimes below, and you're gonna have people actually
with four layers of denim.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
They're running car hearts, and you got it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:46):
So you got two layers of denim in the car
heart jacket itself you at the hour. Then you have
the inner you know where it creates a pocket, So
there's two layers of denim. Then the same if they're
wearing a car heart overall. Now if you shoot them
straight on whatever, or you've got four layers of denim,
and then that's not only four layers of denim, but
you have the shirts underneath the car heart, so you've

(01:27:08):
got several layers there.

Speaker 4 (01:27:10):
So we're living my carhart, aren't the guys we shoot?

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:27:16):
Generally not no, But I was talking, but I think
it was Chuck you and I were talking about it.
Is that what I see generally is you've got the
jackets that have the new insulation in, which is usually
a nylon outer, nylon inner, and then some kind of
synthetic insulation, and then you've got the lightweight you know, underlayers.

(01:27:36):
And so most of the layers are fairly thin. They're
not very thick on the on the you know, on
the average. But of course you get people were in
the hoodies and what other stuff. But I was looking
at you know, the average skier or something like that,
and they're they're wearing those new fangled synthetic layers and
they're fairly thin, and the jackets thin. But it's because

(01:27:57):
that again, the synthetic or down you know, insulation in it,
and it's way different than it's going to be for
the four layers of denim or the farmer armor.

Speaker 4 (01:28:09):
You know, or they say the rancher is wearing his
you know, heavy winter clothing over the top of it.
It's going to make a difference too. One of one
of the questions came up, let's see, I just had
it here. Second the oh, I'm sorry, I lost it.

(01:28:29):
It went away because the questions came up, I'll find it.
I'm going to answer that question for him, so let
me find it real quick. Sorry, you got to continue.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
On find because I can pull it up on the
screen too.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
But if I hit on that four layer dnhim thing,
because I hear that, you know, nobody wears four layers
it's an engineering test, that's all it is. Uh. The
original FBI heavy clothing, their their version of heavy clothing
was invented with with uh, you know, good for good reason.
But then International and Ballistics Association factler Gary Roberts, the

(01:29:06):
guys who were involved in that eug Wohlberg, we were
seeing bullets that did well in that test or did
okay in that test, failing on the street, failing to
mushroom on the street. This is all going to be
service caliber handgun stuff. So IWBA came up with the
four layer denim test after a bunch of testing up
different tests, just to give an acid test to jacket

(01:29:28):
hall of point bullets. What they found was if you
do that test to specification, that bullets that passed that
test don't fail on the street. So all it is
is a worst case scenario engineering test. How valid do
I think that is? We were talking about a bunch

(01:29:48):
of different stuff here. The guys that I in my
contacts at Spear in Federal tell me that they do
test to the IWBA standard. They do the FBI and
the IWBA. So they used to four layer dentim because
it is an acid test for service calibri amo opening
up through a heavy clothing barrier. The one twenty four

(01:30:13):
grand plus P gold dot that at my old job
was using was was tested to those standards, and one
of my dudes was in a shooting hit a guy
with two of the nine millimeters gold dots the plus
P one twenty four. Both of those went clean through
the guy fully mushroomed. The dude who was wearing an
remember the big puffy Oakland Raiders football coats that, guys,

(01:30:34):
are the real long ones that were popular. He was
wearing an Oakland Raiders coat over Carhart coveralls. Under that,
he had a Levi jacket, a flannel shinner, a long
John shirt, and a T shirt. So though both of
those bullets mushroomed perfectly going through all of that, one

(01:30:55):
of the reasons that I say that is I just
had an exchange with a different dude who's famous in
the world that kind of does what Steve does, but
has a little bit more Internet presence, and he constantly
pushes the idea that Holow points don't open up through clothing.
My observation in real life of well designed Holow points

(01:31:17):
is they do, in fact open up through clothing. And
a continuing to spout forty year old information does no
one a good service. I tried to politely point that
out on his YouTube channel, and I was rudely dismissed
on that information. But that's pretty typical when people are

(01:31:37):
putting information out with the motive of selling more product.
I'll just say that there's a lot of people out
there selling we've got the best bullet, We've got the
magic bullet. I can recommend bullets to people. None of
them are going to have any type of fangs or

(01:32:00):
exploding parts or fragmenting externals. They're not going to have
magic flutes the devices and have mystery waves or shape
charge technology or any of this other bullshit that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:16):
People liquefy internal organs.

Speaker 2 (01:32:20):
Yes. Yeah, I've literally heard a particular bullet manufacturer at
a trade show tell people that if one of their
nine millimeters bullets strikes a human torso, it will liquefy
the internal organs. It's beyond that, beyond ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (01:32:45):
I think I even know the guys who told you that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
Check.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
I actually toured that that facility earlier this spring. Yeah,
they're shooting and there I selectric test betters they shoot,
they shoot brisket injectulate water. Sounds delicial about about the
FBI test. Well, the FBI test isn't about expansion, Okay,
neither's defensive ammunition. It controls penetration.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
But well that some when we're talking about valid test medium,
meat that has been drained of blood, lost all elasticity
and has been sitting in a refrigerator is groceries. That's
not a valid test medium anymore. It's just not.

Speaker 4 (01:33:34):
One of the things I want to do if I can,
if I get a chance to do it. I want
to go pig hunting, and I want to get a
pig and shoot it with something that it will stop it.
Then I want to immediately go to the pig while
it's still warm and almost still breathing, and pump a
bunch of different wadecutters from different guns into it and
see what kind of penetration I get.

Speaker 2 (01:33:56):
Because I have I have you road injured deer or
deer that I have shot deer hunting YEP. On more
than one occasion to test thirty eight wildcutter AMMO, I
had a very over. It was over a two hundred
and twenty pound dough that I put down one time,

(01:34:16):
and then I put two Remington wadcutters and two Critical
Defense one ten grand non plus p from my six
forty two into the chest cavity of this dough. I
saw a dramatic difference in penetration and internal damage between

(01:34:36):
the wide cutters and the Critical Duty Critical Critical Defense.
My bad, the Critical Defense. The Critical Defense didn't open
up when it because they both hit ribs, didn't open up.
The wide cutters dramatically fragmented the rib material on exit

(01:34:57):
and tore the lungs up really bad, whereas no, because
oranges are not lungs. If you were breathing orange juice,
you would die. We breathe air.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
A watermelon.

Speaker 2 (01:35:17):
The critical the Critical Defense bullets looked like somebody took
a three eight cench drill bit and just drilled the
cleanest hole all the way through this deer, whereas you
could tell the wadcutters it hit the rib and mushroom dramatically.
Is this going to be valid for defensive bullets if
you've seen what a deer rib looks like versus what

(01:35:38):
a people reb looks like. Probably not as much, but
it was it I have had to put down on
the road or I have had a chance in while
deer hunting to put bonus rounds into deer after they're
down enough to also have done I don't know, dozens

(01:35:59):
of gun shots into dead animals specifically, like what Mark's
talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
So why don't we get into now, what should people
be looking for when they watch these these videos? What
are some dead giveaways that Okay, this is either an
AD or this is misinformation, it's playing wrong. What are
for you, guys, what are those clues that you're seeing.

Speaker 2 (01:36:28):
Sample size if they're firing one or two shots and
making sweeping observations and and and call it come into conclusions.
One of the best guys out there that I have seen,
Ashley Prepare his gel is kind of friends with the
guy now Tennessee Outdoors nine.

Speaker 4 (01:36:48):
His his.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
Ordnance jail tests are pretty legit, and even his older
Simtel jest or pretty tests are really pretty legit. But
the shooting the bull dude, he was doing five shot
averages on his which is exactly what you should do
as a minimum to come conclusions. And what he found

(01:37:11):
was some of these loads, you shoot one bullet, it
would look perfect. And let's say you stop right there.
You think, oh this, this bullet does this well, he shot,
he was shooting five shot average, he might get one perfect,
one doesn't open up at all, and three or somewhere
in the middle. And then they got like you know,
a six inch range or ten inch range of variability

(01:37:32):
in penetration. Well that's that sample size is really an
important thing. That also things like, uh, you know, maybe
do they chronograph, so that if I know a particular
load typically gives a particular result, and they chronograph and

(01:37:58):
it is low or it is high, then that tells
me something. You know, that it's cold there that day,
the guy's got different elevation, that sort of thing. So
when you have bullets that are somewhere in say you
are shooting from a short arrow gun and it's cold weather,
and I see the velocity they're getting as part of
their chronotest, that'll tell me, well, that bullet's getting down

(01:38:21):
low into its design velocity or maybe below its designed velocity.
Whereas like I'll tell you a critical duty hornity. Critical
duty works really well out of service sized guns, doesn't
work great out of really compact guns like they're nine millimeter,
works great out of a service sized gun. Block nineteen
glock seventeen doesn't work or well out of a glock

(01:38:44):
forty three because it drops below its designed expansion threshold.
The bullet is still doing exactly what it was designed
to do. What it was not designed to be was
a short gunload. It just is what it is. So
when I see somebody doing if they're doing a larger
sample size, they're doing consistency, and they're doing things like

(01:39:07):
some chronograph testing. And then quite frankly, I get judge
on guys shooting groups. If dude can't shoot, if they're
going for combat accuracy and they're kind of like spreading
the trauma, that tells me about a little bit about
the dude doing the testing. Yeah, I'm a little judge
about people shooting. That said, then other things, besides it

(01:39:32):
being interesting, shooting groceries doesn't really tell you a lot
because of the inconsistency of the medium.

Speaker 1 (01:39:44):
What about claims, I'm sorry, oh what about claims? And
we're just talking a handgun here. Claims claims because based
on our discussion, all of our discussions, and then adding
in Gary and other people and other recognize expert type people,
the optimal performance that we're looking at fits in this

(01:40:08):
nice little box their bullets or poken holes. That's all.
Look at this tep cavity that's huge, so doesn't doesn't anything.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Most people looking at temp cavity, particularly clear jail, have
no idea what they're I've heard people say, look at
this permanent temporary cavity. Yes, which which one is it?
Because you have a permanent cavity, you have a crush cavity,
you have temporary cavity. Handgun bullets do not have enough
temporary cavity to impart more wounding. So when you especially

(01:40:46):
and this is where the snake oil salesmen come out
of the woodwork with magic flutes and cause is these
little waves and the gelatin and things like that. It's
not significant enough to add to wounding. It just isn't.

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
They can't. They can't get past the elasticity of the
organ and the whatever to make a permanent wound at
that point.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
They don't have the power to do that.

Speaker 4 (01:41:15):
Yes, it's not stretch of the tissue beyond its ability
to stretch. So basically it's a bruise. The best you're
going to get out of it's the bruise around that
and around that area outside of that temporary the permanent cavity.

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):
And that it We talked about that in past podcast,
but you know, like I know the five point seven
fan boys, they want to push it at some sort
of rifle like pistol, because the bullets hit two thousand
feet per second is not a magic threshold. When you're
over that, you have a large temporary cavity, and you're

(01:41:49):
under that, you don't we know that five five to
six in the twenty eight hundred and thirty two hundred
fee per second range, like the classic old M sixteen
a one and one nine three ball he had a
fifty five grand load at thirty two hundred feet per second.
That would y'all dramatically fragment the bullet inside of a

(01:42:09):
two hundred meters and you would have a temporary cavity
sometimes you know, several inches across. Significant wounding involved in that.
When we start to drop that bullet out of like
a ten inch barrel or a seven and a half
inch barrel. If you want to buy a really dumb gun,
then that bullet is going to act like a twenty
two magnum at best, because the bullet will may still

(01:42:34):
y'all may not definitely won't fragment. Temporary cavity is going
to be insignificant. Now, below that two thousand ft per
second threshold, can you have significant temporary cavity, Yes, because
we see that in like twelve gauge Foster style slugs.
So you have an OUN's house and a quarter lead
at sixteen hundred and sixteen and fifty feet per second,
ten cavity tends to be state significant and I mean

(01:42:57):
six or eight inches across, which is why when slugs
hit human beings they tend to drop in their tracks
because spinal cord concussion is a thing. What you just
did is you invoke the old hit the central nervous system.
So if you hit an average built dude in the
chest with a Twelvey eight slug, even if you miss
the spine, that temp cavity might be enough to thump

(01:43:19):
that spine cause a spinal cord concussion. The guy drops
in his tracks. That's a central nervous system artifact. Because
of the interplay between the body and the teen cavity
size handguns service size handguns in no way in part
temporary cavity that has anything significant like that, And anybody

(01:43:39):
that claims otherwise is trying to sell you bullshit.

Speaker 4 (01:43:44):
I'll throw out one that happened, unfortunately with a friend
of mine's son who did this. My friend was a
LA firefighter. His son, guy is rub super Blackhawk loaded
with two hundred and forty green jacket holopois, I don't
know what brand, but and he took it on the
bus with him because he'd been picked on by a
bunch of kids and this kid was coming up to

(01:44:06):
pound the crap out of him again. He said enoughs enough,
stood in the aisles kids coming at him, and punched
him in the chest with a two hundred and forty
green forty four magnum jagon hollowpoint, and the kid walked
off the bus, walked into the ambulance and basically was
released that day because it hit nothing vital and did

(01:44:27):
not expand did not do anything he permitted real serious
damage to him. That was one case where I was
I was shocked at myself because it was like one
of those you mean, hit with a forty four magnum
that's unreal, But that's what happened to him. Now, I
don't know where. I don't know specifically where it hit him,
but it's totally hitt him in the chest. And like
I said, the kid walked off the bus and walked
into the ambulance. It was shot with it. So pistol

(01:44:50):
bullets poke holes. If they hit the right stuff, they'll
do their damage physiologically, psychologically gets shot. Yeah, you may
still get a stop, but that's that's gonna be dependent
upon that. And they don't necessarily stop all the time instantly,
even if they're hit with a good spot. If there's
enough blood to the head and the cane blood to
the head, they're going to state keep functioning for X

(01:45:12):
number of minutes until you or a seconds, rather until
they decide they're not going to do that anymore. So
pisso bolts just don't have any magic power to them.
We're looking if we get people to stop with them.
So the best we got, but they're not any magic
Wand I don't care what loads you use, what bullet
you use, it's just bulletplacement's going to be a big
factor on penetration is going to be a big factor
on it. Uh. The question was asked, I want to

(01:45:37):
address with these people.

Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
Is if you have a timestamp I can put.

Speaker 4 (01:45:41):
On the let me see if I can find it again.
I just had to just looked at it and then
I continue to scroll. The question was basically, so they
people should test bullets every year because manufacturers change them.
Any question that is a that is an excellent question.
So I'm going to give you an example. When I
was doing my testing for my wandcutters. I'll use the

(01:46:02):
Federal HST one thirty grain load, which reported was aupout
to be the load for the thirty hw wadcutter. What
cut what cutter like bullet wo be the load. I
found them to be very inconsistent. I found them to
be very unreliable in pulling bullets from different lots. I

(01:46:23):
found that there was at least three different bullet designs
in the period of four years where they changed the
bullet shape, they changed how it was cut, where the
handler was, everything about the bullet. And I took those
three bullets to the shot show, talked to the Federal
engineer and I said, okaye, I show him authorizing which
one of these is the current bullets you guys are
using And he said, well, that one is the one

(01:46:45):
we're using now, but we're discontinuing it. And when we
discussed why, he said, because we could not make consistently
to work reliably. The bullet would not perform correctly. It
was hard to make, it was expensive, and so we
dropped that dropped that load for that reason. But there
were three different bullets in less than four years that
they changed on this. I have seen changes in the

(01:47:09):
sphere one point thirty five rain short barrel load if
you actually look at them, the serrations on someber longer
than others, the cuts for them, so everything, all this
stuff has got different things with it. And manufacturers changed
this stuff all the time and don't tell us that
they're going to change it. And as a result of
that we see differences. A one of the boutique companies,

(01:47:32):
which I really respect and like, had a load out
that they claimed was one bullet weight, and when I
actually shot the bullets and recovered them, they weren't even
close to being the bullet weight they were supposed to be.
And I'm not going to say who, because that issue
has been fixed, but I'm guessing is during the time
of when COVID was hitting and everybody was having trouble

(01:47:53):
finding everything, and these bullets were put out. Now they
performed as they were supposed to. The velocities were in
the same, penetration is same, but the bullet weight was
not even work close to or we're supposed to be.
I think it was just a matter of acquisition of
the proper bullets. They've done since then, I have not
seen that issue. But there was a time in there
where that manufacturer put out these loads and they weren't

(01:48:14):
the same load as they are now.

Speaker 2 (01:48:17):
I remember rag mark that was a hard cast bullet.

Speaker 4 (01:48:20):
It was a hard cast bullet, Yes, sir, Well that's.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
So again. Variability. If you get a difference in the
alloy when you alloy when you put antimony and other
things in the lead, is the heavy bark you make
some of the things in it makes the bullet lighter. Well,
if you get your mix a little bit off, then
you think the bullet is a certain weight, but it's
actually a different weight.

Speaker 4 (01:48:42):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:48:43):
Again, there's variabilities in this stuff. A lot of this
is nominal.

Speaker 4 (01:48:49):
In this particular case, the bullet design was different than
what they previously put out and what they're putting out now.
So I'm going with the benefit of the doubt that
they whatever reason they couldn't obtain the bullets they'd used
before and put out loads to meet demand, but while
they performed, they weren't the same. Bullet and velosies didn't

(01:49:11):
effect it, but it actually penetration didn't affect that that much,
but bullet weight was considerably off. We're talking about twelve
brains of weight difference between the bullets. So these are
all variables that go into it too. So yes, you
need to check your AMMO and Chuck and I did
a test with twenty twenty one. I think it was

(01:49:34):
befired the first Federal punch loads and we got much
shallower velocities we've come up with. Maybe the jail will
look cold that day, but I think it's more that
Federal changed the loading and improved it to make it
work well. Unfortunately, I just had before I came out
to where I am now, which is South Dakota, for
a class. I did some testing, actually just practice shooting,

(01:49:58):
and I shot in my Federal punch twenty two's just
to verify zero and I had a sleet dud on
one of the loads. I hit the thing seven times
in different places on the round and it never went off.
And it's anybody's interesting. They can contact me and I'll
be happy in the lot number. I'm gonna put it
out here. I'm gonna contact Federal about it. But this

(01:50:21):
is their Federal line. This ammunition has been stored properly
and it's not exposed to a lot of heat or cold.
And yet I had a complete done with this and
I'm not happy with it unfortunately, Sorry, Federal.

Speaker 1 (01:50:35):
The other thing I've seen over the years is.

Speaker 4 (01:50:40):
The box.

Speaker 3 (01:50:40):
I'll posted velocity on it, and the velocity has changed drastically, yep.
And not just because of a certain gun or a
revolver or whatever. I mean, we're talking to some drastic
stuff of.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
Course, you know whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:50:53):
I don't you know, Chuck mentioned it earlier about test
barrels and what they're using whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
But they have a certain velocity and you'll you'll test
it in like I've tested in my guns whatever, and
so I have a.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
Line of you know where you know where it's shown
in my guns, and then you'll you'll wait a few
years and you'll do another test for some odd reason
and it's it's way off in the same gun.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
I also know that there sometimes like manufacturers, what's.

Speaker 4 (01:51:27):
That powder bridge down if you if you carry it
in your your especially if you're carrying it like you're
carrying your car and you're bouncing around the roads and
like you around, the powder will break down and it
will change.

Speaker 3 (01:51:39):
I was talking about not I'm not talking about the same, mamma.
I'm talking about if you buy new Ammo off the shelf,
the same model of Ammo, oh yeah, exactly several years difference,
it'll be different.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
I've had them. I know.

Speaker 3 (01:51:52):
Manufacturers sometimes will change their powders and their loads and
still not change the box information. Just like you were
talking about more arkell. They'll change the design of the
wad cutter but not say anything. Right, They'll change certain
things within the load and not say anything. The box
will still be printed the same whatever, and there'll be

(01:52:15):
there'll be some differences.

Speaker 4 (01:52:18):
I'll throw it switching from pistols to rifles. Back in
our first Ammo big Ammo crunch in two thousand and
eight to twenty twelve, and we had the first one,
we had the Federal, which I'm a big fan of Federal.
I'm not trying to badmouth them, but they had some
quality control issues came out and they were running out

(01:52:40):
of powder and couldn't find powder. I guess and you
would find like three to eight match AMMO you have.
Some would be very little or very little muddle flash,
and some would look like a explosion going off at
the end of the barrel. Everything changed with it. The
federal hydras or a federal HST I was talking about

(01:53:01):
in one box of twenty rounds, I had one hundred
and eight feet per second difference in velocity from the
same gun. That one it went up to nine hundred
and twenty eight feet per second where the other was
were like eight point thirty. My hands stung and the
round blew up in the gel and didn't even go
four inches into the jail. It just disintegrated basically in

(01:53:25):
the jail. And it's the same box of AMMO, so
we knew the same kind of bullet and should be
the same velocities. But manufacturing go through there. There were
good times at bad times. Chuck and I have talked
about Winchester. Winchester used to be my go to load
for everything we use. That's all we used in our department,
and then Winchester had a lot of quality control issues
come out that their velocities and bullets were not doing

(01:53:48):
what they're supposed to do. So there's no one right answer.
We have to go best we can do. Stay with
consistencies with the big manufacturers, or if you get a
custom loads from the botique manufacturers to test yourself and
see what they do, contact the manufacturer talk to them
about the loads. I think those are the best we

(01:54:10):
can do with it. But there's no absolutes with that.
I mean, I would have never expected federal premium punch Ammo.

Speaker 2 (01:54:17):
Not to go bang.

Speaker 1 (01:54:18):
It's twenty two, that's why.

Speaker 4 (01:54:20):
Well, I understand that, but it's still smart as I
know it is bad. It's just twenty two. I understand
that twenty to twouse a notoriously if not sore properly
can go bad from them our cartridge, but this has
not been stored bad and it's still at that round.
So I'm kind of shocked. But another manufacturing, and I'll
have to throw this one out is sig have. I
bought a box of thirty especials of theirs to try

(01:54:43):
and in less than five rounds I had.

Speaker 1 (01:54:45):
A squib and don't drop it either, it just goes
off by. Actually this kind of reinforces something. I think
it was Chuck that brought up and this might be
a little more agency related, but it absolutely applies to
the individual. Is if you have your primary AMMO choice,

(01:55:07):
make sure you have secondaries and secondary stuff that does
what you want it to do. Because we can't always
have our primary choice, and maybe we might run into
a point where maybe our primary choice of AMMO isn't
doing what we want it to do. Let's go to
our secondary primary secondary.

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
I strongly advise agencies to have more than one authorized
doomy load. Every once in a while you get supply
chain issues or you might get a bad batch. I
have been like Mark said, I used to recommend Winchester.
I have carried Winchester at work. I've carried my personal guns.

(01:55:49):
I don't carried it anymore past few years, or quality
control has been so hit and miss. I won't do it.
At an agency level. If you have a program of
any eyes and you get a shipment of AMMO in
especially your duty AMMO, I think if you are not
taking a sample of an AMO, test firing it out
of your service pistols, running it over a chronograph, and

(01:56:12):
maybe smacking a couple of rounds into a clear gel
block just to make sure it actually opens. Up you know,
the way you expect it to, or maybe a factler
box with you know, a water box, something like that,
to make sure that it's it's meeting your design parameters,
that you know your your criteria for what you need
it to do. I think you're negligent if you're a

(01:56:34):
police like you're running a program and you're not quality
proof testing your AMMO before you hand it out to
your troops, that's a problem. That's where things like having
a garment and maybe some clear gel run out of
the range, set it up, fire twenty rounds over the
top of the you know, down range. Get your velocity.

(01:56:56):
Check it's meeting specs with the garment, function chests to
a couple of pistols, put a couple of your Holow
points into a clear jel block. It does what you
expected to do. Good to go. I have seen cases
of well, talking about Winchester, they lost the FBI AMO
contract because they sent a bunch of one forty seven

(01:57:16):
ring bonded to the FBI that was their official duty AMO.
They didn't have flash holes in the primer pocket, so
you know, you pop the primer, nothing happens. There's no
hole for the flash to hit the gunpowder. I have
tested Winchester bullets, the Ranger t's that the famous talent
type you know jacket. I have seen those completely fail

(01:57:38):
to expand because they let the tooling get dull and
it didn't cut the skies in the jacket correctly. So
now it acted like a flat nose, full metal jacket
with significant penetration versus a jacket holowpoint. So at an
agency level, I think you should do due diligence if
you want to be in the of like chief firearms instructor,

(01:58:02):
range master or something like that.

Speaker 4 (01:58:04):
Saying that chuck you know as well as I do.
Majority of people, even requirement instructors for most of the
agencies around the country are not gun guys. They are
not experts in the area of ballistics, and they will
go with whatever being counter you know, provides them. I've

(01:58:25):
seen agencies who buy PHOEIXPD with an example, they bought
Ammo because the being counters bought the Ammo and that's
what they used and they didn't really have an input
into it. If you want to do the best justice
for your people, you need to test this stuff, look
at what's going on, and make sure that you know
the ammunition of getting once you get it tested. We

(01:58:47):
had a batch. A great example is we bought a
batch of five grain Remington forty five holopoints because that's
what that was the only holowpoint load available. When we
went out to go with nineteen eleve evans for a
department and they ran fine on my guns, they ran fine. Well,
my guns were all throated and ported. We go down
to put them through standard issue nineteen elevens that were

(01:59:09):
not modified in any manner and they wouldn't work. We
couldn't get them to work. So we had to scramble
and take like forty thousand rounds of AMMO and exchange
it for ball that we get to function in the
officers guns. And we use ball for many years until
we could come up with a hallow point it would
actually work. So these type of things need to be done.

(01:59:30):
But there's a lot of folks out there who are
not really into their ammunition and don't study what actually
there is. Go with, well, what can we get, what's
the cost, Let's do this holowpoint And because they don't
do their own independent testing, they don't look at it,
they don't examine it in Matthew pising that too.

Speaker 2 (01:59:53):
If you're running a program and you're responsible for other
people's lives, well you could do is not be a
low information douchebag and actually do your job. You know,
silly talk.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
Come on, Chuck.

Speaker 2 (02:00:10):
Problem with expressing feelings, I'm told I need to work
on that.

Speaker 1 (02:00:14):
Yeah, work on your delivery a little bit.

Speaker 2 (02:00:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:00:23):
The only thing would be better it was be Chuck
saying that and then peace Pepper sprays them there as
you go.

Speaker 2 (02:00:30):
I could arrange that.

Speaker 3 (02:00:34):
Those people that talk to somebody because they say something doing,
they spray with a water bottle. So now you got
Chuck with a water bottle, but inside the water bottles
pepper spray.

Speaker 1 (02:00:45):
Ye bad.

Speaker 4 (02:00:46):
Somebody asked, Chuck, are you coming to a revolver Fest?
Are you going to revolver Fest this year?

Speaker 2 (02:00:51):
Oh yeah, I did see that. Yes, I will be
a Revolverfest in South Carolina. Really looking forward to that.

Speaker 4 (02:00:57):
Unfortunately I will not be. I'm going to be on
a cruise going to the Panama Canal.

Speaker 2 (02:01:02):
We will both be at Revolve a round up and
we'll both be there.

Speaker 1 (02:01:06):
Yes, yeah, I'll be there. I'll be back for that one.
Well it's been two hours. I think this has been
a wonderful discussion, and no, I'm not just saying that
that's just fun to talk about this stuff. And some
people that aren't as excited about these topics as I am.

(02:01:28):
I could see. I could see some people complaining, this
is all we talk about, widecutters, revolvers, ballistics. I think
when people start understanding or paying attention to what you
guys are saying, we can stop rehashing the same damn topics.
But we're not there yet. It's going to be a
few years, so I'm sorry this specific episode is going

(02:01:49):
to be repeated about twenty more times we talked about
all those oh yeah yeah, but and genuinely this I
think this is such a fascinating topic, and you guys
brought up some really, really really cool topics or concepts
that haven't been brought up in the past. And that's
one of the cool things about these episodes is we
might have an idea of this is the specific direction

(02:02:11):
we want to go, and then these really these awesome
nuggets show up. And that's how it's been since we
started these It's just nice that we're a bit more streamlined,
Believe it or not, these are streamline compared to how
we started. Oh gosh, the old ones were Oh they
were people snoring and begad.

Speaker 2 (02:02:31):
We'd be here at two thirty in the morning, eight hours.

Speaker 4 (02:02:35):
I remember saying, you had your nineteen eleven discussion.

Speaker 1 (02:02:38):
It was eight hours. Oh it was eight hours? It was,
and I think it was closer to ten. But the
app we were using just cut off at eight. But
the conversation was so good. It was like a j
Zo and me and Chambers and Presburg and yeah, Dave Albert,
who else? Yeah, a cool group of people. But when

(02:02:58):
you get people like this, just like this Penel, get
this caliber of people to discuss these topics, going into
the weeds is so much fun. And you see the
excitement and in your guys's eyes, and you hear the
enthusiasm in your voice, and especially if you're just listening
to these and it's it's just rewarding because how often

(02:03:21):
do we get to see this. I get to see
it if I go to a class with a good instructor.
That doesn't happen as often as I wish it as
often as it should. But these are such a great
opportunity for people to be able to touch professionalism and

(02:03:41):
insights that we don't get to have on a regular basis. Yeah,
I say it all the time. I love doing these
And with that in mind, this goes out to the
viewers the listeners. Make sure you are supporting those sources
that you found to be benefit. It doesn't happen. It

(02:04:01):
doesn't have to be primary and secondary. It doesn't have
to be these guys. If someone's producing something that you appreciate,
something that you learn from, something that helps you improve,
you've got to give them like subscriptions and shares period. There.
I know I personally have used various videos that Chuck

(02:04:21):
has and some of them are on active self protection,
and then there's some other sources and I use some
of these videos in part of my police officer training
with some of my department training, the escalation and other
things like that. Right now, we have some awesome resources.
We have some awesome people who we can reach out.

(02:04:43):
You can contact them, we can train with them if
we want, we can call them, message them or whatever.
These people are all within reach and where you live
in a wonderful time. So I've talked in the past
about how right now we have so many awesome options
for firearms, and we can get into the weeds as

(02:05:03):
how how how specific you want to get for deep
cover or for deep carry or for just plain concealment
or for you name it duty anything anything, So many
great options. We have great options for AMMO, we have
great options for training. Right now, the gun industry isn't
doing so hot. We're in the middle of a slump.

(02:05:25):
Money is just not there. Uh and obviously every company
is going to have qa QC. It's going to go
up and down. We have seen this with Taurus. We've
seen Taurus that was down here and they're on their
way up. You see other.

Speaker 4 (02:05:39):
Companies we've cold, We've seen it.

Speaker 1 (02:05:42):
There's yeah, yeah, and I have I have multiple six
I started my police career with a two twenty nine
and then a two twenty six. Man, I would love
to get a nine mil to twenty six right now,
but I still I still like the three ties. I
don't care em though yet. I'm a little concerned, but

(02:06:05):
my agency is at block agency. But bottom line, we
have so many awesome resources. Make sure you're supporting them.
Those algorithms do not work in our favor, so make
sure you're giving those shares. Make sure this episode got alike,
especially if you learned anything, If you if anything, if
you're entertained, this deserves alike. I'll probably listen to this

(02:06:28):
tomorrow and probably find out a couple or figure out
a couple of clips. Hopefully this doesn't get booted off
of YouTube. They've done that a couple times now. Facebook
has done this as well. But I'm going to stop
talking for a minute. I'm going to let these guys
give their final thoughts, their final plugs again. Make sure
you are supporting those sources that you have found to

(02:06:48):
be beneficial. Pay attention to who these guys are if
you weren't familiar with them already. We've had episodes with
these guys a lot, and they're and even with the
first one where we had Steve or Mark or Chuck,
those first ones are outstanding and you're going to see
some common There are differently common themes, but with every
episode there is just enough difference to make it so
worth your while. So Chuck final thoughts, plugs, all that

(02:07:14):
kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:07:17):
Well, if you're interested in some of this stuff, like
I'll be it because somebody asked, I'll be at Revolverfest
in South Carolina. That's October revolve around up pat Rogers
Memorial revolve around up gun Sight. In November, I've got
some other training, uh you know my Pepper Spring Instructor
Small Guns classes, close Quarter at and things like that.

(02:07:39):
I am teamed up with a few other dudes who
we have the Tagical Anatomy Summit. They if you if
you're interested in the tactical naty that Tactical Anatomy systems
uh information. I'm also an AI for Doc Williams and
his Tagical Anatomy and Structor class that will be at
Meadhole next May in Oklahoma. I do one ballistics demonstration

(02:08:04):
and talk about this stuff in depth, and we shoot
samples and show people we're talking about in those classes.
So if you're interested in that, I'm doing Tactical Anatomy summits.
And then I help with the Instructor school with Doctor
Williams in his Tactical Anatomy Systems Instructor School as well.
So got that coming up because you always want us

(02:08:28):
to talk about what we have going on. So some
of them, if you get on my Instagram or my Facebook,
you can see some of the bullets that I ran
into ballistic jail. I need to post a few more
specifically if you're interested in like the dB load that
I was talking about, one of Steve's loads that show
you could instantly tell the difference between the bullets that

(02:08:50):
went through the organic jail instead of just the clear jail.
It makes it. It made a pretty noticeable I wouldn't
say you know to at, but it's pretty noticeable difference
in the bullet expansion. That sort of thing so tells
me my theory is proving out. I'm gonna do some
more testing on this. But tells me that some of

(02:09:14):
what we see in clear jail on the Internet isn't
exactly an accurate picture of what we should expect out
of reality. And then we'll put a plug in for Steve.
Remember when I was talking about good ammo goes bang
every time, shoots accurately to your sites, easy to control
out of your gun, gives sufficient penetration. He makes that Ammo.

(02:09:37):
It makes It's not like some of the boutique gloaters
back in the day always had the hottest Ammo, the
fastest AMMO, barn burner Ammo, things like that. Steve just
made good, reliable Ammo. So put a plug in there
and buy I buy his AMMO with my own money,
So it's what is currently in my backup gun when

(02:10:02):
I go to work on my thirty eighth snubs. So
wanted to throw that out there.

Speaker 1 (02:10:07):
Good stuff, you know, And that actually brings up a
good point that I think I forgot to mention. For
people that have been listening for a while, that are
familiar with these topics, familiar with the speakers, they've figured
out pistol termina ballistics aren't exciting. It's not oh, this

(02:10:28):
is amazing. No, it's consistent. It is what it is,
and it's these specific variables. And if someone is wowing you,
take a step back and try to figure out what
they're trying to sell you, because pistol bullets shouldn't wow you.
Now that being said, I'm going to reinforce what Chuck
said about Steve's AMMO. Consistency, reasonably priced, available, gets to

(02:10:55):
me quick. I'm happy with that, and that's why I'm
all my revolver stuff is I've just decided, Yeah, I'm
going with my desert. That's my choice for all my
revolver stuff. For my semi autos, it's different. I have
all my duty stuff and all that other.

Speaker 4 (02:11:13):
But yeah, Mark, Okay, I don't have a lot of
open enrollment classes. My only one that I really have
is up in Wyoming and that's every June you reach me.
I don't have a big social media presentation. Most of
my stuff is a government contract when I'm up in
South Dakota for right now. Government contract stuff that I

(02:11:34):
travel around to do. But I do a class up
in Devilsarwa, Wyoming every year in June, being my thirty
second year up there, consistent year going up and we
do handgun. This year we rifle and we'll do long
range rifle. So that'll be what we do for this
type of class for next year. I am at revolve

(02:11:56):
around Up. I would love to be Revolver festal Like
I said, my wife and I were scheduled a cruise
before these guys came up with the dates for that,
so you know they lose or right lose one of
the two. But then I'll also be at Thunderstick, which
is going to be out through Vangcomp. If you go
to Vancomp Shotguns, they will have the information on it
you do that. That will be in October at Perumph,

(02:12:21):
which is now is the Staccato Range, which used to
be the Front Sight Range, which a prairie fire range.
But if you want to shoot shotguns, this is a
great class for it. Revolve around up in November at
gun Site the premier revolver event. We've got act instructors

(02:12:41):
down there and you learn anything to do about revolvers.
I'm available at Mark Frickey at I'm Sorry, at aft
T seventeen at MSN dot com if you want to
contact me because I'm kind of winding down my training
career after almost fifty years of being a trainer, but

(02:13:01):
I'm still liking doing and i still love it. But
that's the way. The best way to contact me is
to my website in there. So that's me. Thank you, Matt,
appreciate you. Hammy on again.

Speaker 1 (02:13:12):
Oh, always a pleasure. Ye, it's so much funny to
give you hard time. Steve hd cc HDCZ. I've been in.

Speaker 3 (02:13:28):
I've been on here too much. People don't really know
me too much yet they're starting to, obviously. I appreciate
and I'm blessed with all of the plugs and stuff
people major people in the industry have given me twenty
seven years law enforcement been retired ten years, and all
those ten years of retirement, I've been in the that
manufacturing ammunition industry.

Speaker 4 (02:13:51):
But in that.

Speaker 3 (02:13:54):
After have to turn of the century part, got associated
with Doc Roberts, met him, and I was doing my
own ballistic testing based on being able to attend a
lot of womb shot autopsies and and comparing those to
ballistic testing that some of the companies were doing, like

(02:14:14):
Federal and Spear and Hornity and whatever, and so comparing
what I saw in the ballistic testing and then actually
pulling bullets out of people. That's where it got it
for me. And then from there working with again another
you know, I have these these moments of just I

(02:14:39):
don't know what what do you call them, like working
with the DV load. We worked with the TMJ load first,
and he's you know, we got about nine thirty five
and I've said this on their moodcast, and.

Speaker 1 (02:14:51):
He wanted a defensive load to match it, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:14:54):
And he looked back and when I was growing up
in the firearms industry, the mag zines whatever, you know,
late seventies and eighties, nineties, it was all three fifty seven.

Speaker 1 (02:15:05):
It has to be run at high velocity whatever, but
that was technology from back.

Speaker 3 (02:15:09):
Then, and so my mind was still kind of wrapped
around that, even though I had been through this stuff
with Roberts and the autopsies and everything. I'm not sure
why I went back there, Probably because there was more
of that pound in my head over the years. But
when I mixed up my block and started running up
TV load through those xtps and got consistent expansion, you

(02:15:32):
know XTP type expansion and the consistent penetrations that I
was seeing depths, that was in a sense, going against
the grain. It was like, no, you can't have around
that is easy to shoot less, blast less, recoil and
still performs.

Speaker 1 (02:15:51):
You can't have that.

Speaker 4 (02:15:53):
It's just not.

Speaker 1 (02:15:55):
Give me happy. Had I gotta meet my I gotta
meet my mic just to let my wife's come with
a dog. So actually, I think that's a great thing
that Steve just brought up, because after I said about
that's not exciting, this lamo isn't exciting, there was definitely
hype with the dB load, and it was because it's

(02:16:16):
exactly what Steve just said, because that is exciting because
it's finding that that that balance of everything that we
want and having it shootable. That's insanity.

Speaker 3 (02:16:28):
So anyways, we went from there and expanded with the
other loads forty one Magnum, forty four Special, forty four
Magnum and others.

Speaker 1 (02:16:37):
Thirty Yeah, I'm gonna get.

Speaker 2 (02:16:42):
Mark, Mark.

Speaker 1 (02:16:43):
It's on the list, it's in the queue.

Speaker 3 (02:16:44):
I've got like seven other loads in the queue and
yours actually number three in the queue.

Speaker 1 (02:16:51):
So it's gonna come this year.

Speaker 3 (02:16:52):
So I'm hoping by Revolver round up, which allbe a
rebel round up down there at Gunsight.

Speaker 1 (02:16:59):
I hope to have some apples for you. I'm going
to give you a present.

Speaker 3 (02:17:04):
But working with BB and Brian with a Y and
Chuck here and Mark other people in the industry have
helped develop my loads and to prove that, you know what,
you can have these loads doing these things and they
will perform and it goes against the norm. And I

(02:17:25):
have to admit, you know, you no sooner you hold
back the tide than trying to, you know, to change
people's minds.

Speaker 1 (02:17:33):
You know, I rode rode horses for twenty some odd years.

Speaker 3 (02:17:36):
That's why I got my first law enforcement started with
a forest service riding back country on the horseback.

Speaker 1 (02:17:42):
But you can lead a horse to water, not make
a drink.

Speaker 3 (02:17:46):
People, you can't even lead them to the water, snow
flipping away, you're going to get them there.

Speaker 1 (02:17:51):
It's horrid.

Speaker 3 (02:17:52):
And so it's like whatever, And I don't argue on
the net anymore. It's like, this is what I'm seeing,
this is what you know. Of course I'm not I'm
not Chuck, I'm not marked. They're more known than I am.
I'm thanks to you people, I'm getting there. But I
have had people what's that people? Yeah, but I have

(02:18:15):
had a few, quite a few phone calls in the
last year asking me about ballistics and stuff. So it's
it's starting to move that way. But anyways, High Desert
Cartridge Company, Highdesert Cartridge dot Com.

Speaker 1 (02:18:28):
I do get.

Speaker 4 (02:18:29):
I know.

Speaker 3 (02:18:29):
I'm work with a lot of people in the industry,
and my loads are developed based on that, and they're
extensively tested. Not only with I want reliable, accurately like
Chuck was talking about, but I want him consistent.

Speaker 1 (02:18:47):
And that's one thing I look at.

Speaker 3 (02:18:48):
You know, when my my powder measures, most people when
they handload, they running powder measure out to tents of
a grain. My powder measures are calibrated to hundreds of
a grain so I can keep my consistency a little
bit better. It's tough to do to get those dial in.
It takes a little more time to do it, but
with the right pattern, they'll hold. But I want I

(02:19:13):
want that, and I also want to stay small enough
to where people have a question I can call them back.
I want to have the accessibility that people can get
a hold of me. I don't want to get huge,
that big to where I can't do that. I see
that time and time with companies. When they start out,
they're so their quality is X whatever and their customer

(02:19:37):
services X.

Speaker 1 (02:19:37):
And then as they get big, they tend to lose that,
and I don't want to lose that. Yeah, now, just
because it's fun to hear Chuck get angry, a question
did come up just in the last minute that I
think we need to add just just briefly address. And

(02:19:58):
it's not just Chuck that I'm sure is going to
say something. TJ asked, Well, he said, I had to
step away for like an hour and a half. Did
anyone address the lee high bullets that supposedly create permanent
cavity around them? And we kind of talked that about
that a little.

Speaker 3 (02:20:18):
When I use the term flute ages, they use the
term magic flutes and bullets.

Speaker 2 (02:20:26):
It wasn't It was meant to be derogatory.

Speaker 1 (02:20:29):
That's ed.

Speaker 2 (02:20:31):
Of all of those bullets that are out there, the
Lehigh's probably the best one. It has pretty good construction
and as a fairly wide mep plaid, it has kind
of a sharp cutting, semi wide cutterish face. So I
look at those bullets as a modern like an in
three eighty. Let's say they're really useful, because expansion is

(02:20:53):
a negative typically out of bullets like a three eighty.
So could it be useful in loads like that? Add
so that you have a wide cutter or a cutting
effect on the met plaid. Uh face that penetrated sufficiently, Yeah,

(02:21:14):
it could be used. Yeah, it could be used, or
high or high the hyper static Uh, there is no
such thing. Uh, there is no such thing. There's hydro dyte,

(02:21:39):
there's hydro dyte. But yeah, permanent. I need to give extra,
need to give extra. Some of the other bullets, not
the Lehigh, are almost around those in effect, and in
the testing I've done, they have no more wounding effect

(02:22:02):
than a ball round would have, and they are certainly
not better than a good jacket at haulowpoint. That is
blatantly false advertising. So of the solid copper bullets that
are non expanding, because the expanding solid copper bullets like
the old Corbon DPX, the current I believe it's a

(02:22:23):
Barnes bullet might not be. But like super bel loads
at one point fifteen grain plus p nine millimeters smallid
copper haulowpoint, that's a pretty legit load, good expansion, good penetration.
It's something I could recommend. The lehigh bullets of all
those out there are the ones that I would recommend
for niche use, like they're outdoors load and nine millimeters

(02:22:46):
made to have high penetration. It does just that. The
three eighty loads I think are pretty legit if they
feed in your gun, and I think there's an advantage
in skipping expansion out of a pocket gun like that.
But like the G nine bullets the last box I

(02:23:06):
saw shaped charge technology. A shape charge is an explosive
anti tank device. It's it's made with high explosives. There
are no high explosives and a pistol bullet that you
buy over the counter, it just doesn't see.

Speaker 4 (02:23:24):
Also, what they call it an external holowpoint.

Speaker 2 (02:23:29):
Yes, there's also no such thing as an external Holow point.
It's just grooves or flutes in the bullet and in
some of the other bullets that are that are the
cop copper polymer matrix like the Ruger Arx as the flutes.
It's it's a very smooth, very smooth round nose bullet.

(02:23:51):
So because of the design construction that things like that,
I would tell you they have less wounding potential than
a ball down because of how they're built. So yeah,
even even in the even in the fluted various fluted
bullets are not all created the same. But the idea

(02:24:11):
that this enhanced temporary cavity of these bullets adds somehow
to the permanent cavity blatantly.

Speaker 4 (02:24:19):
Falls talk about about the honey badger from Black Hills.

Speaker 2 (02:24:24):
Uh, that is a kind of a jaggedy face Lehigh bullet.
It may be Lehi making it is, I believe it is.
But instead of coming up and looking like a Philip
screwdriver from the top and then from the side, it
comes up and has kind of a square metal had

(02:24:45):
like a truncated cone, almost like a semi wad gutter
with an a shoulder the honey badger has more. There's more,
it's more jagged in the nose, so it would have more.
It would have a cutting effect that the honey the
honey badger in the smaller caliber lows. I think there's
some you know, there's there's some pluses do it. You

(02:25:07):
don't just have a ball around those ball amos sliding
through the tissue and not cutting it. So it has
kind of a I call it a kind of a
semi wide cutter where you have that that flat face
that that is has has an enhanced crushed his crushed
cavity in tissue. But other than that, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (02:25:29):
Had a conversation, I know it was texts with doctor
Gary Roberts about fluted and I had no idea, never
thought about it. And he pointed out those flutes, it's
just extra surface area and that's what's controlling the penetration.
I thought, oh, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (02:25:46):
It's it's enhanced, it's it's more drag. Yeah, it's just drag.

Speaker 1 (02:25:51):
Yeah, and it's not it's not wounding. It's yeah, it's
just controlling that penetration.

Speaker 4 (02:25:55):
That when saw was somebody asked about later safety lugs
and that is that is one that has been around
for a long time. Free sprag maned bullets do not
work well. They do not penetrate deep enough. I mean,
if they if they go in deep enough, if their
frontal shot, it might do more damage. But if you

(02:26:18):
got to shoot through anything else in between a chest
frontal chest shot, you're probably going to deep enough to
get any damage done to it if they expand. I
know of three cases. A guy offen Or actually shot
himself in the leg with a thirty eight laser from
a decade special superficial wound and his leg went about

(02:26:39):
half an inch to an inch deep and that was it.
A lot of tissue damage on the surface, but it
did not penetrate the muscle.

Speaker 1 (02:26:47):
How thick were the jeans he was wearing.

Speaker 4 (02:26:49):
It may have been, yeah, there was a very thick denim.
I don't know anyway. And then a female cop in
Dallas shot a guy through a letter jacket with three
seven glazer and it did not penetrate into the skin,
stopped on the jacket, stopped on his shirt, and he
had basically pellets sticking out of his skin like a pimples.

(02:27:11):
But that was the extent of the damage.

Speaker 2 (02:27:13):
From it.

Speaker 4 (02:27:14):
So if you can get it in the body, yeah,
I may do more damage. But getting into the bodies
about the hard part. It just doesn't get it. You
just can't guarantee what kind of shots you're going to have.

Speaker 1 (02:27:23):
Three fifty seven glazer sounds like an oxymoron.

Speaker 4 (02:27:31):
I bought into that for a while.

Speaker 2 (02:27:33):
I did.

Speaker 4 (02:27:33):
I had you know that because that was the old
standard that was set up for the Okay, I can't
even here what test it was from the Justice Department.

Speaker 2 (02:27:45):
And I jacitation.

Speaker 4 (02:27:48):
Yes, the nine millimeter was the best load out there
in the Glazier safety slug because they penetrated the least
the most most damage in their little computer model, which
was like two or three inches in And that was fine.
This is strange stuff. I want. I want all that
stuff I bought in all this stuff mentioned about nine class.

(02:28:13):
I bought a night class. I carry night Class for
years until I actually got it in orders jail almost
wad cutters, and I'm done when it didn't work, when
he didn't penetrate deep enough, if it didn't expand it,
which it didn't expand through any kind of clothing. Uh,
but when they expand it never got deep enough I
just said, you know what I'm done. I'm just carrying

(02:28:34):
water cutter. So that's what I care. I just carry
a wad cutter load of my thirty eighth and I'm happy.

Speaker 1 (02:28:39):
Yeah, well you must like them because you're writing a book.

Speaker 4 (02:28:42):
I'm writing a whole book. One of these days.

Speaker 1 (02:28:47):
I'm going to stop. My problem is marked, no more,
no more. Well, big thank you as per the norm
to the panel. Wonderful discussion. I think this is again
one of those discussions. It was a good balance of entertainment. Damn,
I'm funny, you know. It was entertaining good, good level

(02:29:10):
of information. These are my favorites. These are my favorites.
Big thanks to Yeah so big thanks to the panel.
Big thank you to the viewer or the listener. If
you're listening, there is a YouTube version. Hopefully it doesn't
get taken down. If it gets taken down, I'll find
a different way to put it back up. If you're watching,
it is available on your favorite audio podcast whatever app.

(02:29:36):
With that in mind, we also have some sponsors to
think we have let's see here. Big thank you to
Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter, and our Patreon network supporters and
also network supporters on the what is it called the forum,
Primary Secondary dot com slash form like what we do,
make sure you're providing that support. That does include likes, shares,

(02:29:59):
feedback also always nice. If you leave comments, that's always
that's always nice, skip as well as reviews. If you
especially appreciate what we're doing. If if these episodes or
anything part of Primary and Secondary has helped improve your
overall quality of life. Okay, that might be a stretch. Yeah,

(02:30:22):
there are different avenues you can go to help support
the network, and that's on Patreon, Patreon, dot com, slash
Primary and Secondary, and on the forum. I think that
is and I say this every time, I think that
is pretty much everything the as of right now. I
just released part two of the episode discussing something with

(02:30:43):
pistol bullets.

Speaker 2 (02:30:44):
Was it?

Speaker 1 (02:30:46):
I can tell you exactly what it is. It was
super Dave Osborne is next week and we just recorded
that last week. I just released Ama Selection and Zeroing
part two just released. That was two hours of discussion.
This episode is two hours of discussion. I'm looking forward
to relistening finding clips. There was a phrasing part about

(02:31:10):
thirty minutes in then. I'm definitely gonna clip and that's
going to be its own little thing, because I thought
that was hilarious part you guys, come on, it was you,
you're the one. It was me knowing what you guy
went over the top of my head on that one.
But uh yeah, that's it. Still have Yeah, we still
have reloading episode and stupid Big Boor episode and I'm

(02:31:33):
looking forward.

Speaker 4 (02:31:34):
To that one.

Speaker 1 (02:31:35):
Oh me too. Yeah, we just need to We just
need to get that night guy who I had again
had no idea. He was a revolver fanatic. You think
you know someone, mister Roland special. Sweet. We're at two
hours and thirty minutes.

Speaker 2 (02:31:53):
Not bad.

Speaker 1 (02:31:55):
I'm going to kill the feed and go to bed
because I need to be up in seven hours. So yeah, yeah,
this specific episode. I was really hoping to have it
start even earlier, but work got in the way. A
big shout out to e warrants and the probable cause statements.

Speaker 4 (02:32:14):
You know, and and drunk drivers is are never, never,
never considered the people's schedules.

Speaker 1 (02:32:19):
They are so inconsiderate. Cool, Well, talk to you guys,
winners right like ye

All Episodes

P&S ModCast 438 - YouTube Ballistics: Misinformation or Ads

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 438 - YouTube Ballistics: Misinformation or Ads