P&S ModCast 441 - ACE VR - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what do you know? We're doing it live all right?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah, maybe you two won't take this one down because
it's literally a VR controller.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
You mean the fact that I have this in my
hand right now, that is not a real firearm.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
It is not a real firearm, which is part of
the magic.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
So hey, everyone, met Lafe here with Primary and Secondary.
Welcome to podcast episode four forty one. We're going to
be talking about and with ace VR. Today's date October sixth,
twenty twenty five. Now why are we talking about ASVR?
Because it's cool, there's more to it than that. Over

(00:42):
a year ago, I was reading some posts from some
people that I follow and I like their insights, one
of them being Tim Herron talking about this system and
it's using VR and essentially it's it's enhancing your dry
fires to a point you're using a VR system simulated

(01:07):
range area with a firearm, irons, DOT doesn't matter, they
can do both. I thought this sounds really cool. I
have some experience in VR. I think VR is really cool.
I want to check it out, so I had to
order it right then and there. I've had it since.
I very much enjoy it. It's a lot of fun.
Not only is it fun, but it has been a

(01:28):
great training tool to hand over to officers. We're all
at the PD doing reports or whatever, break that out
for a quick break, go.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
To a training room and.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Clear out a small area and you know what, we
can get some really cool reps in. Now, yeah, there's
not recoil yet, but there is wonderful feedback. If you're
plugged in, you have the headset on, the guns in
your hand, and if you have a fan going in

(02:01):
the in your in the room that you're in, you
feel like you're there.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
The the experience is fantastic.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
So then fast forward about a year later and I
find that this goofball John, that's me. This is like
world's colliding, and uh, John's one of those forward thinking
guys and the fact that he's part of this program

(02:31):
that is just awesome. So I the first thing when
I find out that he was he was working for
A's we need to do a podcast. I want to
talk about this because truly, one of the things when
I travel, especially if it's just me, if it's just
me going somewhere for training, a convention or anything like this,
this is going with me and I hook up to

(02:51):
either using my home, my phone as a hot spot
or the hotel Wi Fi, and I I get and
that's not it is not truly range time, but I
get range time, and it's just it's it's rewarding, it's
and again it's fun. So John, all right, I'm just

(03:12):
going to shut up now because.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me. I think how
this actually went down was I was like, hey, man,
I got a new gig. You want to do a podcast?
You ever heard of this? And You're like, send me
a picture of a hat, and I think that you
had the gun with you maybe, and and that I
was like, oh, yeah, no, I know all about it.
So that was that was fun to me. Forgive my backdrop.
I just moved into the shop and I'm trying to

(03:34):
get it up and run it. So if it sounds
like an echo in here, it's because it's rubber floors
and there's nothing to hear you but hopefully my audios.
All right.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
So yeah, ACE certainly.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Not my first P and S modcast, but the first
one on behalf of ACE, which is super exciting for
me because it's a it's a big departure from making
gun parts or being in the army, you know, and
whole different world you've gun focus, but in the tech space,

(04:06):
whole new, whole new industry to learn and it's been fascinating.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
So it's it's been a blast. I love it.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I'm hoping this is my last job. I'll retire out
of this one. I don't don't have a lot of
desire to do anything else.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
So yeah, ACE. What is ACE?

Speaker 2 (04:23):
So if you go to the website, it's ACEXR, which
is the old name who we still have.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
The U R L.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
But ACE virtual shooting, and that's really the gist of it.
It's virtual shooting. I think up front for the P
and S crowd, like explaining to people that it's not
a video game. So talking through ACE can kind of
be a challenge because if I could just go around
and put a headset on everybody, fifteen minutes later you

(04:53):
would be giving me a credit card number.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
The only thing that would take longer would be you
waiting for the battery to die and then the headset
would come off, and then you would give me a
credit card number. So the life of the batteries on
the headset is kind of dictates how long it takes.
Most people to decide they want to buy one. So
get into a little bit of the history, and right

(05:16):
up front, like ACE is not a video game, it's
real training. If you have watched any of these or
we're around for my two something decade period as a
prolific internatural, I do not sugarcoat things. You're gonna you're
gonna find out when you put the thing on your
head anyway, whether I'm whether I'm BS and you or not.

(05:39):
And so far I'm bat in a thousand on people
being like, wait a minute, this is not this is
not a game.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's not a game at all.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
It's fun, and we've got a couple of small stages
in there that are game ish, just little little icebreakers,
little something will break up the drills. But Ace's aces
actual firearms training that you can take anywhere, and that's
kind of the thing.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
You can shoot anywhere.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
If you're like me. I went from shooting I don't know,
a few thousand rounds a week probably to shooting a
few thousand rounds a year when I left the end
user side and joined the industry. When I was doing training,
I was like, I don't get to shoot much, and
I teach people to shoot all day, and then when

(06:25):
I moved over to the corporate side, it's like cool, Man,
I go on like two hunting trips a year where
I shoot pigs, and then a few like big game
hunting trips where I shoot a round or two max,
and then like other than that, man, I'm deadly with
an Excel spreadsheet and PowerPoint now and corporate finance and stuff.

(06:46):
So I think for all of us, like, if I
asked anybody watching this right now, do you wish you
could shoot more? Everyone would say yes, right, But we've
got we've got kids, we've got jobs, we've got injuries,
we've got finances.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Right, I could never.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Afford to shoot as much as I want that shoot
for seventy nitro all day to be ten thousand dollars
a day, to be a blast. For a lot of us,
it's just not realistic unless you're Rob Latham or or
one of the testers at Magpole that like dumps a
million rounds a year into a burn and never wants.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
To see a gun again.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
None of us get to shoot as much as we want, right,
So that's really the genesis of ace.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
So that's kind of the broad overall.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Hey, what are we We're a thing you put on
your head and you shoot a gun in it, and
then when you take it off and go to the
range and shoot your gun, you get the benefits of
that training.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
And we'll get into, like you still.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Have to shoot your gun here in a little bit,
what it does from a technical side and what it doesn't. Man,
that's really it. You pop this thing on and you're
on a range. And if you could look at the
hole in my drywall where I stuffed up ACE staccato
through my wall a couple time times, Like we'll get
into my personal experience with VR, which was virtually non existent. Yeah,

(08:07):
intended here in a little bit, but yeah, that's that's
ACE in a nutshell. You put on a headset, you shoot.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
And then there's one little thing that you guys have
added in the program itself. When you're looking at the mainscreen,
you're in the hut, and if you happen to turn
around at about your five o'clock is a little placard
and it's saying how much money you just saved? Yeah,
and that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, I think. So that algorithm is comped out and
we're looking for like professional users. You know, well, we'll
talk about like expansion of the platform, which is our
big focus all the time. It's not something we're doing
one time. Improving that Foxhole is is a never ending thing.
That's our business. It's the software. So yeah, I think

(08:56):
it's comped out for like American Eagle bought at midway,
you know, twenty cent around maybe something like that.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
I'd have to do the path, but basically it's your
overall round count and how much of money you've saved.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
But I tell you what if I go to Fletsy
where they shoot duty Amo all day at a buck
ten a pop, like, that ticker would look very different, right,
or as we expand and other other avenues of shooting
hopefully in the future, you know that that'll that number
could certainly tick up quick some of the dumb revolver

(09:29):
stuff we've been talking about gwenny and easily get to
a dollar a round. Yeah, sometimes even reload, and it
could get pretty pricey. So I don't think they're going
to let me do a five hundred line ball ace
simulator anytime soon. Maybe like as a five year gift,
you know, just give me this one thing. So don't

(09:51):
don't take that too seriously, but yeah, I mean the
the AMMO savings are are tremendous, and the time savings
man and something we can it can overestimate.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah. Well, pressing a button to reset your stage? Yeah,
how easy is that? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
I want to shoot an l press Cool? Now I
want the entire arrangement of Terran's range, you know, popped
out maybe at some point.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
How long does it take to set all the stages
for USBs a match?

Speaker 1 (10:22):
And how many people does it take too?

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Exactly?

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Cool?

Speaker 2 (10:26):
You can shoot that whole match here in two three minutes.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Multiple times, multiple over and over and over and over.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah. Ye.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
So so let's start from the very very top of it.
So essentially, how does this happen? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Actually, let's go there because I was going to say
talking about the product when you buy, how you hook
it up and you're you're off and running.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
But I think the history is the history is super cool.
To me, it's fascinating. I also get to sit with
these people every day, you know, and and know the story.
But to me, it's like I'm the dumbest guy there.
Which if you've ever tried to see me work a computer,
this is the fourth or fifth one of these I've
done and like I still can't get in the YouTube

(11:09):
comments and comments to people on here. So my old
it guy would tell you, like Dave, once a quarter,
i'd asked for my email password. What do I do?

Speaker 1 (11:20):
Like I don't. I don't.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I don't like technology that much like in my day
to day life, like leave me alone.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
I don't want to let crap. I like Amazon.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
My retirement goal is not like a financial goal or
like I don't want a helicopter or anything. I want
to not own a laptop, like I will have maybe
an iPad so I can order stuff off Amazon because
that's super convenient. But like, man, I don't care to
own a computer anymore at some point in my life,
Like that's my retirement goal, and here I am doing
doing tech stuff. So ACE started for all that stuff

(11:53):
we talked about upfront, where hey, I I want to shoot,
I want to shoot more on a shoot at all
for a lot of people in the world like, hey,
this is I can't do the thing I want to do.
It's airsoft or at travel. And then we had COVID
where even you know, if you didn't live out in
the boonies, like chances are you couldn't do a lot

(12:15):
of the things you wanted to do. I think everybody
got a wake up call for how how society will
work and draconium circumstances there that probably most of us
probably didn't like. So we had a brilliant guy named
Aaron Lee. That is his real name. No, it sounds
you know like a like a made up pseudonym John Doe.
Aaron Lee. Aaron is like when I say I'm the

(12:38):
dumbest guy at the company. For some context, Aaron is
an architect by trade from London. Aaron lives in London.
You can't have a butter knife. You got to get
a license for a TV, like go get your tax
stamps so you can watch soccer whatever they call it
over there today. You know, they don't enjoy the same

(13:02):
freedom we do. Like it's a it's truly anything over
there is a privilege and.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Not not big on rights, it seems.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
So.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Aaron loves to shoot.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
He was a gamer and got into actual firearms because
they do have clubs in the UK where you can shoot,
but like action pistol, you know usps. A ipsick was
was what he fell in love with, and so We've
got a guy that's an architect in London, and young guy,

(13:37):
but much younger than us, and decides he wants to
start shooting. Has always been interested in firearms, Like you
could sit here technical knowledge with any of us, and
like he would know it. Man. He is a gun
guy's gun guy and his you know, there's family obligations,
life circumstances where it's not super easy for.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Him to shoot.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
So Aaron has travel to shoot. This is pre COVID. Like,
all right, I'm going to go to Eastern Europe. They
have clubs you can rent guns and shoot, which is
which is apparently pretty common. It's just something I take
for granted here right completely, even though I'm in Colorado
and I'm learning to take my firearms. Right, it's much
less for granted than I used to. And so Erin

(14:20):
would come to the States, meet people, borrow guns, shoot matches,
go to Eastern Europe where they have a very active
competition scene, and then COVID happens, and like the world stops.
Especially it was bad here, it was worse there Already
draconian just got worse. So we've got a guy that's
not a programmer, that's an architect, So I mean, you know,

(14:42):
clearly he has some intellect and.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Some design skill.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
So buys a VR headset and teaches himself to code
and makes the the older version of this app, which
is I think shoot VR VR shoot and literally out
of necessity, I can't shoot, here's an avenue for me
to do it in my flat in London, and teaches

(15:07):
himself to code and makes an app having never done
it before so he could shoot, and apparently it was
pretty good and some people downloaded it, some people started
using it and had an opportunity to take on a
partner and like make this a real thing. And to him,
he's just like cool, I can make the app what
I want it now, Like I can actually do the

(15:29):
thing I want to do that I didn't didn't have
the time resources, you know, because he was working a
day job at the time. And so you got this
brilliant guy who's architect by day, like, I need to
make a VR shooting app and there's not one, so
I'm going to do it in my spare time, which
blows my mind, like what are you a wizard? And

(15:53):
it's better than any of the ones that have been commercialized.
So he attracts some attract some partners, and they funded
it becomes a full time job, and so that was
the genesis of ACE. It was about two years ago
that they started working on it, and we've been doing
business publicly for about you know. There was like a

(16:14):
six month bring everything together, figure out how the programming worked,
migrated onto the right platform, set up all the backside.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
So it took about six months.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
And then ACE has been operational and then evolving adding
stuff for about eighteen months now and I am about
five months into it. So you have all these brilliant
people that came together at the right place at the
right time, you know, a brilliant investor that saw the
potential in it and saw it for what it could be.

(16:45):
A guy that like, it would never occur to me, like,
you know, I want to go surfing, but I can't,
So I'm just going to like learn to make a
surfing app and I can surf at a VR headset
on my couch, Like it.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Would never occur to me.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
I'm not fired that way. And this dude is brilliant thinker.
So we start getting people on board and people really
like it. And then there was the original medical handset,
which has more parts than the Swiss Watch. It used
in Airsoft Staccato frames. Stacato's Ace's first partner and still

(17:21):
absolutely critical to Ace's success, but a great partner for us.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
We do a lot of stuff with him.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
They saw the value in it early on and believed too,
So to get a partner like that early on was
huge because I think, you know, you can't, as Larry
Vickers used to say, you can't swing a dead cat
without hidding a Staccato's somewhere right, they are, they are everywhere.
So they saw the potential in it, and there's still
a vital partner. Hired a CEO named Connor Connor has

(17:53):
an instagram. I think it's Connor d Ace Connor is
cat in America. He's going to kill me if he
sees this, so hopefully he doesn't. But like all American
went to a great college, commissioned into the Navy, right
into the Seal teams as an officer, went to BUDS,

(18:14):
was on active duty as a seal officer for for
a number of years, got out and went to Stanford
Business School, you know, the number one business school in
the world for to get his MBA phenomenal leader, brilliant dude,
makes sense of the utter chaos we're in every day
as a company of you know, less than two dozen

(18:36):
people that's.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Growing like a weed.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Brilliant head of software who's got a ton of experience
doing exactly what we're doing right now. Just a great team.
And uh, you know, there's there's one guy newer than me,
which is awesome because now he's the new guy, so
like Jerry, who's also smarter than me. But that's good.
Being the dumbest guy here is awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(19:04):
it's not. It's like having the cheapest house in a
nice neighborhood, like you're always gonna be able to sell it.
So yeah, that that's kind of how ACE came about.
And like during COVID, it's like I don't have any
other choice. If I want to do gun stuff, I
have to do it in VR. And that led this
guy to learn how to make an app. And now

(19:24):
you've got the a SUC today and we're trying to
add features and invest in the back end. We've got
some big moves coming up here soon. I don't know
how software works, but needless to say, if I can't
get into my email Half the time. I don't understand
how the sausage is made, other than it seems very
complicated stuff I think would be like, oh, that would

(19:46):
take like two hundred programming hours, Like no, that's a
flip of the switch and stuff. I'm like, oh, surely
that's easy. No no, no, no no. So I'm the
constant thorn in the side of the dev team. But
right now we're making some big investments that you can't see,
so we can make a bunch of huge advances that
you can see on the actual software side. Because it

(20:09):
also turns out, in addition to being the dumbest guy
at ACE, I also have the least important job. Other
things I probably shouldn't say that are recording, but primarily
right now I do a lot of stuff there, but
like hardware, I own the hardware making plastic parts. I
know how to do that. I've done that or two.

(20:29):
So this is one of the latest hand sets we released.
It's the Shadow Systems m R nine twenty. It's a
facsimile of Glack nineteen. You know that's it's that pattern,
uses those magazines, same general layout, uses that you can
actually change the backstraps on it using the actual Loeum
parts have been a really good partner to us. But

(20:51):
all this has to do, and I'll let Matt chip
in on this here in a second, is not diminish
the n app experience. Like, no one is going to
suffer a terrible app because the handset is so good.
So all I've got to do is make handsets that
don't diminish the end app experience, and the dev team

(21:13):
has to do the heavy lifting of making sure you
love Ace. I've just got to not ruin it, right, Yeah,
because once you put that thing on, you don't I mean,
you kind of know what guns in your hand, but
like once it's so immersive. Once you're in it, Dude,
you're on that range. You're not in your living room,

(21:34):
you're not in your truck, you're not in your hotel.
You are on Staccato's range in Vegas or whatever other
range you choose.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well, and that's why I said, if you have a
fan going and there's a slight breeze, it's immersive.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
You are Yeah, just as you said, you are there
the same.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Pop that thing on, you are. You've been teleported. Congratulations.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
And it's amazing how many people that aren't experienced in
VR try it for the first time with me, and
they're like, holy crap, this is unreal. Yeah, and then
they're they're just looking at the gun and yeah, yeah
it works, and just like what you just said, the control,
it's it's intuitive.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
The magazine release works. You know.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
The reload is you hit the magazine release and you
just mack the base and that's your reload. There's no
manipulation of the slide itself, but there's definitely trigger. There's
there's a fine tune adjustment inside the app itself for
the trigger itself. But the possibilities with the handsets absolutely endless. Yeah,

(22:40):
not just in four factor, but I'm sure it's possible
to do a double action type trigger and that would.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Just be yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah. Well, we definitely have a wish list of features
for the hardware, So we do hardware first because that's
that's my that's my lane. We started talking about software,
that's when the comments like, okay, Boomer, you don't know
how the internet works. Fair enough, fair enough, you'd be right.
So one of the things I tell people about ACE

(23:10):
is you still have to shoot your gun. You have
to be like it's up to you to be disciplined
about how you perform the reloads in the game to
not game them. You obviously you're not. You don't have
slide manipulations there. There is the joystick on the controller
mounted on the top will rack the slide, but it's

(23:32):
not the same manual of arms. So what does ACE
do right now and what does it not do right now?
You don't get recoil control, and it's simulated to some
degree in the app, but you are not feeling the
recoil in your hand.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
It's it's all visual and virtual. You're not getting actual
MAD changes at this time. The original one had a
MAD that dropped halfway out and then you could reinsert it.
It wasn't the most robust system. It's it's very expensive,
you know, it's parts count like anything else. You add
more parts, you add more costing complexity, and there comes

(24:13):
a point where it takes away from the n app
experience if you're dealing with inefficiencies with the hardware. So
the hardware is deliberately simple right now, because what we
want is a super strong foundation before we we want
to be able to shoot twenty five meters slow fire,
before we start shooting soup pine prolem under a car
at a grizzly bear target or whatever you know people

(24:34):
do rolling around on the ground like idiots. So the hardware,
the catcher, though, hardware is deliberately simple. So what I
got here, stick three sixty five. It's Macro, right, I
believe number one selling handgun in the US right now,
Global is still best. I can ascertain still with block nineteen,

(24:55):
but super popular gun, great gun. Everybody knows the three
sixty five once again, thank you, Larry. Can't swing a
dead cat without running into ten three sixty five.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
And it's one to one. So what we try to
do with the.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Hand I even notice the trigger geometry is different as well. Yeah,
it's an accurate representation.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, we do our best. We're limited somewhat in certain
aspects of the trigger pull because ultimately we're pulling the
trigger on the handset and it requires a certain amount
of travel. So like the nineteen eleven triggers are a
little bit longer than you know your your staccato would be. Yeah,

(25:37):
and that's just a function of having to actuate the
Meta controller. And we'll we'll talk about why the controller
is the way it is with Meta specifically here in
a minute. But all right, what we want is if
you close your eyes and hold this thing cool. I've
got my three sixty five that is in a holster
on my nightstand right now, ready to put on and
go out the day. We do the best we can. Obviously,

(25:59):
it's it's not low material with weights inside, so we
can only get the weight so close, but we maximize
it to have the weight distribution and actual weight as
close as possible, so like it doesn't feel like a
water gun. It's got some have to it. The magazine
catch is one to one push. It feels just like

(26:19):
the one on your three sixty five. Best we can do,
and it'll fit most holsters with modifications. So why the.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Tumor on top right?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yep? Meta number one headset, you know, certainly for the
market we're going after. It dominates the US VR market
and most of the global market. They're a powerhouse. They
have the probably the best headset for the average user,
as I understand it. As little as I know about computers,
I knew even less about VR when I started this.

(26:56):
We will talk about talk about my personal journey here
a little bit, but we have to use the Meta
controller on top. Meta is very protective of their architecture,
their algorithms, their communications. So right now we don't have
the ability because otherwise we would just put our own
boards in here and gyrose and this would be the controller.

(27:19):
You wouldn't have this thing on top, and then you'd
have perfect Holster compatibility and everything. But right now, the
only way to talk to a meta headset is with
your hands in the virtual space or with one of
these controllers. So this is really what limits us currently.
We have to use the metas controller to interface with
their handset. And that's why when you pull the trigger,

(27:42):
there's a bar going up right there and it's pulling
this trigger, and so we have to have enough of
a trigger stroke to actuate that. And then everything else
is tweaking geometry to make it as realistic as possible
with an actual sear break and some cool aftermarket Charles C.

(28:05):
T three D is a super popular aftermarket guy. I
think he's got a Netsy store in his own website
where he'll sell you like components to tweak the trigger
pull on them. It's super effective. We love that guy.
So we lose a little bit of Holster compatibility right here,
unless it's a race holster a super low cutling. I
found that most of them you need about an inch

(28:27):
in front of the ejection port. We sell holsters. We've
got some holster manufacturers coming online that are going to
offer ace holsters or modifications to their holsters. But you
know right now, like you're not going to be able
to use your duty holster. Everybody's using a Safari land
with an als or an als and SLS on the
same holster. It's not going to clear a hood, and

(28:49):
there's no ejection port for the als to interface with,
so you know you're gonna have to fake the funk
on your actual duty holster. Outside of that, these things
are one to one to your actual firearm, so and
most importantly, the in game models mirror that. So if
you're using the MR nine twenty with a black grip

(29:12):
angle and the height over boar, the red dots is
all one to one, so your presentations exactly the same.
If you are shooting some kind of twenty eleven, you know,
within the variance of optics cuts with an SRO on it,
your presentation is going to be exactly the same that
it would be with your actual pistol. So that's what
ace does, you don't get recoiled. But man for like

(29:35):
red dot transition, learning to run a dot, it's exceptionally effective.
I think that's where one of the places it shines
the most is getting really, really proficient with a red
dot because you know, Matt, what do we know about
the average cop when you handle a gun.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
They don't know what the hell is going on. They
don't know what's going on, and now, like the problem.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
At least they know it's way to point it. That's yeah,
it cools are authorized put one on there. But like
even how end users like, the transition to a red
dot was extremely challenging. Had to come up with new doctrine,
new ways to teach. That's why you guys teach these
red dot classes modern day Samurai and any number of
other guys. I know, Chuck is red dot guru. I

(30:17):
got to live through that. I think Chuck's first red
dot on a pistol is one he borrowed from me
in two thousand and nine. It was a Bowie tactical.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
With one of the first rmrs on it, and we
shot the crop out of that thing. You know, as
fast as we can keep R of rs getting warranteed
at the time, and.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah, a stable of them, and just yeah, I don't
want to dime them out because like some of that
I was actually helping them test optics.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
I mean I went through Fisher and I went through
a ton of those things while they were sorting them out. Man.
They seem to be pretty good now and have been
for a long time, But yeah, we were killing some
red dots early on. You know, I think the whole industry.
You got to learn a lot about what happens when
that slide stops and comes back forward.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Man, it's a part.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, So gaining proficiency with the red dot quickly and
getting a lot of competence with it is like one
of the places ACE really shines. We've got pretty much
any red dot you could want in there, either under
our name or the actual manufacturer's name. Vortex and Trigicon

(31:29):
and hollow Sun and Seymour and Shield and sig have
all been excellent partners because they see the value in it.
Because like, you can try every dot and get the
real effects of them in the app, and it's just
something you could never do unless you have somebody bring
all those to the range for you, and they are

(31:50):
hyper accurate down to the tent, the dot size, the
radical options, the span of brightness that they have. The
dots are are definitely one of the most refined parts
of that. And then, like I said, your grip angles
and hide over bore the same. So being able to
get those reps in is fantastic. So that's kind of

(32:11):
you what you get with A So you get a
fairly realistic shooting experience. It's actual training. You know, if
you shoot an l PRES, shoot as for a week,
go back to next weekend and shoot it again. If
you're not a high a master GM shooter man, you
were going to see strides of improvement and just your

(32:35):
ability to get rounds in. You can shoot two thousand
rounds in thirty minutes. Oh yeah easy, and yeah in
the amount of feedback you get like the scoring cool here,
you're splits, here's where you hit, and you can time
out whole stages and just get super accurate feedback. So
for stage planning, target transitions, all that stuff, it's it's

(33:00):
hyper accurate and you just don't have to spend thirty
minutes setting each drill up to shoot it a few times,
tear it down and do it all over again. There's
no tape in targets, there's no drive into the range,
you know, even like for me here, my range is
about an hour away, so you know, two hours of
my day in the car, unload, set the range up,

(33:23):
drag steal out. Like, I don't get to shoot that
much even if I spend a day on the range.
And you know, if I got a meeting that ends
at nine to forty seven and I got another one
at ten, cool man, I can pop this thing on
and shoot a couple hundred rounds and like get something
out of it.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
Well then also there are some almost diagnostic workshop like
stages built in, so if you just want to focus
on this. Yeah, but that being said, they're all there's
also so my favorite thing to introduce people to ACE
is basically like the big open area that has pretty
much all the targets available and after a little bit

(34:01):
of time, they reset and it just gives people an
idea of, oh, this is what it's about. Yeah, okay,
now we're going to introduce time. Now we're going to
introduce other variables, but this is let's get our feet wet,
and this very basic but wonderful feedback environment.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
So right now we've got drills, skills and thrills. Right, Yeah,
that's how it's broken down. It's easy to remember. And
then the drills can be shot individually or like a series.
So you know, twenty twenty four carry Optics Nationals by SIG.
We've got the whole match in there, and it's fairly
to scale, but if you just want to shoot the

(34:38):
el pres or the bill drill, and then we've also
got them grouped not just by matches or brands, We've
got them grouped by the skills that they reinforce as
a series. So hey, this one's all speed. This five drills,
four drills, whatever it turns out to be for that
series is all target transition. This one is all swingers,
those infernal swingers and polish plate racks, Like shoot them

(35:02):
for about thirty minutes and I just put the thing
down and walk away like I know one know one,
I'm linked. And then we've got skills where you can
practice side alignment in literally zeroing and see the differences.
Because that's another thing. The ballistics in here accurate. You know,
it's it's not hard to make a point mass calculator
that you know this farthest speed drops this much. So

(35:26):
for the zero of the red dots out to I
think thirty five is the furthest back you can go.
You're getting accurate changes in point of impact based on
your zero, which again is something it's fairly simple to
do in the app. And I'm like, dude, surely that

(35:47):
would take two hundred years to program. Like no, man,
you just like hit these four buttons and it changes it.
Like okay, cool. So changing the color of a dot,
on the other hand, huge lift, Like like, no, you
just hit the green button, then it's green. Right. I
don't like green dots, but if you do, we got

(36:08):
them in there now. There's nothing wrong with them. I've
just been staring at red dots for almost three decades.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
So yeah, that's uh.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Also with the stage, with some of the stages also
there are if you if you have limited space, stationary
what a concept. But the moving stages are awesome. If
you have the space, that's a good one.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
That's a great call out that again, like the hardware guy,
I don't think about as much. So if you look
behind me, this room is about twenty feet long and
I don't have any crap in the middle. Shoot. Yeah,
it's so I can work, right, that's the fun part. Man,
Shooting an ace for me is literally work. So it's like,

(36:54):
oh yeah, man, I got some time. I need to
need to check the app see the new updates. So
if you don't have the room to run around, you've
got a couple options. The shows still shoot all the stages.
And if you've never used the Quest headset, we should
talk about that up from beies like, that's what it
all is, is around. So these things work on the

(37:14):
Meta Quest two, three S and three. The two of
the three s share the same lenses, the three has
the updated lenses, and then most of the other features
are the same, other like size of the memory in there.
It is a noticeably better experience on the Quest three.

(37:35):
And it's a couple hundred bucks more, right, And so
that's the thing. People are like, do eight hundred dollars
to get into this? So let's break that down a
little bit. It's obsedemly expensive to make this thing software
and hardware.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
I will not lie to you.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's expensive to do. You know why it's expensive. You
know it costs you a lot because it cost us
a lot. But I don't think it costs you a lot,
to be honest. The headset. The last time I put
a VR headset on was maybe two thousand and eleven,
and it was a free fall canopy control trainer and

(38:14):
it was like straight up Nintendo sixty four at best,
first three D game ever. But the mechanics were right
and it showed you the effects in different weather conditions
of maneuvering foil parachute. So I had never put one

(38:34):
of these on, and I'm like, I don't know, man,
sounds hokey.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Like I got an Xbox, I don't know if I'm
into it. I don't want to put that thing on.
And then you turned into a lun more man. Yep.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
When I got the interview, they're like, hey, we'll send
you a unit, and they're like do you have a headset,
and like nah, but I'll buy one, Like whatever, it's
all good by I'll buy a headset and give me
a job. So I order one and I was like, well,
I might as well get the nice one. And it's
an important thing to remember that, like we are working

(39:07):
with the worst VR headset we will ever have to
work with right now, right, And that's just back to
the first iPhone to the one we have today. Back
to them the Atari or the Commodore sixty four its
or the current generation of gaming platforms are like, look
what you can do with gaming computers. Right the technology advances,

(39:28):
so this is only going to get better. But right now,
the Quest three is their top of the line one,
and you get better resolution. The range is going to
look better at it. That's not to say you don't
get the same benefits with the other ones, but I
would say if you're going to buy one. And the
thing that I picked up on was like, hey, this

(39:49):
isn't just for ace, No, it's an iPad on your face.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Dude.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
I can watch movies on it. You can do all
kinds of stuff. I was shocked at the cape ability
the headset. I was like, I should have paid attention
to these a long time ago. This is super fun.
It's something you can use for so many other things.
It's something your kids can use, it's something your family
can use. And so that was my first thing, Like, Okay,
like that thing's four or five hundred bucks, depending on

(40:18):
if it's on sale around the holidays.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
I keep an eye out.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
They'll sell referbs or open boxes like Meta will sell
them directly and you can save sixty eighty bucks. Amazon
will run a special on them, you know around holidays
when they have a map holiday for them. I'm assuming
we're not in the headset business. We're in the software
and controller business. So you get your Meta headset anywhere
you get Meta headsets. But if you're going to buy one,

(40:42):
I would spring for the top of the line when
like I said, they're only going to get better from here.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
We're always going to be able to do things.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
There's limitations to the technology right now, where there are
things we would love to do down the road that
the headset wants support. But I mean right now, they
are pretty pretty darn capable. So I put this thing
on and I'm like, oh, this is way more. Almost
killed my poor uncle. I was like, dude, check it out.
They got like three sixty roller coast. I think I

(41:12):
told you this the first time we talked about it.
It's like, dude, I found like a three sixty roller
coaster video on YouTube and I put that thing on him.
He's like, this is neat, and dude, I almost killed
him because he thought he was standing on the ceiling.
You get so there's a storil and this goes out
the window. But the headset itself is really neat man,

(41:33):
and then when you get into ACE that's what allows
you to shoot I don't know, let's call it one
thousand dollars worth of AMMO in an hour and actually
get some training value of it.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
So, like, you know you're into this thing.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
If just street price one fifty for the handset, the
subscription is either seventeen dollars a month month to month,
or fourteen dollars a month if you buy the it's
twenty five percent off if you buy the year subscription.
And to me, just buy the year subscription. Of course

(42:10):
I would say that, right, yes, please give us more
money now. But like, if you're going to invest that
much in the headset and the handset, just save the
money and do the year long subscription, because we've already
invested so much in it. And we I mean, I'll
tell you, I'm not going to give you the actual numbers.
We have very little fallout. When people latch onto this thing,

(42:33):
they stay latched onto it. We don't drop a lot
of subscribers, So take my word for it. The guy
that gets money from this and just do the more
expensive thing. But really, like we very rarely do we
run into somebody that doesn't see the value in it. Now,
if you put a world champion shooter in there, are

(42:56):
they going to get more benefit than a casual shooter,
somebody learning, somebody who's not truly like top five elite man,
I would tell you they you will probably get more
out of it.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
You have more room to grow, as it were. But
we have plenty of world champion shooters. You see them
on the scoreboards.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Eric Grofel, one of the greatest shooters of all time,
uses this thing like on his own. Max Michelle used
this thing on his own. We've got a relationship with
him now, but this thing's awesome.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Changing his handset away from the sick now so.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
He doesn't have a signature handset, we do have the
handsets he uses to tell the world what handset that's
going to be intil it's announced, But I'm assured it
will be announce soon. He's not he's not retired. He's
going to keep shooting. And if it's not a sick
it's going to be something else. And yeah, you know
that'll be an option you have less. So those guys

(44:02):
see tremendous value in it because same thing, dude, they're
on the road a lot. Max is out teaching and man,
I'm sorry when you're when you're teaching, you're not training.
It's true the other people you don't get the Jurney prices. Yeah,
so when he goes back to the hotel, man, he's shooting.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
We've got a lot of world class competition shooters that
see the value in this for stage planning, getting reps in.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
And so they see the.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Value in it. And if they do it, like I know,
there's the well yeah, man, like of course you say
that's the gun to shoot. You're wearing a jersey with
that company's name on it, and I'm assuming your mortgage
is paid by that. That's I'm assured, true to a point, right,

(44:58):
who's a who's a fo? Max Verstop is going to
say the best car you know on the Formula one
track is the one he's driving at the time. But
if somebody gives them another twenty million dollars next year,
that's going to be the best car.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
On the track.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
But you also have to evaluate it by like the
way those guys get those opportunities is a lot of
hard work, and rarely are they ever going to do
anything that's going to diminish their capability to win because
the least competitive, they're not marketable. So nobody's going to
use this thing if it degrades their ability to improve.

(45:34):
Stay at the level they're at, stay sharp. Some of
these guys, like I'll never be there, So I don't
know how they shoot at the level they do. It
blows my mind, but I can assure you, for any
amount of money, they're not.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Going to do anything that's a detriment to that.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
So for those guys to kind of endorse it, like
organically at first, like do this thing's rat It gives
me opportunity I wouldn't have otherwise, I think is a
pretty good vote of confidence. And then for all the
rest of us that aren't super human venturesque machine guns,
like all these dudes, you're just getting that much more

(46:09):
out of it. It's so convenient. Like I travel a lot, man,
I'm back and forth between here in Dallas all the time,
and I'm going to other other things for work and
then family travel. And man, you just pop this thing
on anywhere and shoot and like cool, I get to
shoot again. It's not exactly the same, but man, it's

(46:31):
a whole lot better than doing nothing. And it's actually
like there's a lot of stuff I can do in
there that I can't do out on the range. So
and again, like, find somebody that's got one, put the
headset on, and that's the ultimate sales tool. Like, don't
take my word for it, man, find one, pop it on,

(46:51):
give it a go. If you're ever in northern Colorado
or Dallas, like, let me know. I will meet you
somewhere and let you try it.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Well.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
So about a year ago, I was at a Mosburg
event and I brought the ace with me and we
were having our social hour after the day was over
and everyone's congregating in the lobby, and the lobby was
a little off of everything, kind.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Of not secluded, but it was away from normal earth people.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
I thought, you know what, when I run upstairs, grab
the ace, come back down and let everyone try it.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Huge hit, huge hit. And the great thing also with
the with the with the Quest three is I don't
need to set up censors through the room. It is
all self contained. Yeah. The only downside, the only downside
I've ever experienced is battery life. Because I wanted to.
I wanted to keep ongoing.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
And yeah, and I have a I have a special
battery pack on mine. But everyone, all these execs, all
these media people were there and taking turns and it
was awesome. It was just so cool to share this
with everyone and good experiences.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah, it's just it's portable, it's easy. Did anybody anybody
you put it on? It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I
want one.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
I don't think you have no. Yeah, I don't think
I've ever had anybody put it on. And you know,
we've got like charities, we're involved in events, we support
where truly like it's not range centric, it's not gun centric,
and people get into it and you know, the amount
of people I know that haven't even shot them, Like,
we'll just try it. This is a great way to
try it. And yeah, social dynamics of of like who

(48:35):
Ace appeals to is another another super interesting conversation because
it's it's for everyone. Yeah, I've never had anybody put
it on and not enjoy it and want to keep
doing it. And that doesn't mean they all ran out
and bought one. But like, I've never seen anybody have
a negative experience when they put the headset on man
and and start using ACE because it's.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Fun and it's valuable.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Like it's that that intersection of it's not a drudgery
of like dragging all your crop out in the range
of Phoenix in August or Alaska in February.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
You know. Well, and there's something with certain people with VR.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
They have some issues with it where they get motion
sickness or whatever, and it's because there is a disconnect
between the movement of their body and what their brain
is perceiving through their eyes.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Well, this you are moving with, it's it's real time movement.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
So the odds of getting that that nauseousness or whatever
is going to be lower.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
But even with less and frame.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Rate two, especially on plus three, like they've improved so much,
it's there's much less of that. I think some people
are always going to get in there, you know, if
you're like super prone the car sickness.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
And sickness, well they.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
See some, but shoot the stationary stages exactly and as
opposed to the roller coaster three D videos those it's orienting.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yeah, but even my my son who's about to turn five,
throw it on him and let him try it out.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
And see what it's He thought it was so much fun.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yeah, buddy, put the dot on whatever you want to shoot,
shoot the pumpkins, and what a great introduction to firearms.
He shot already before, but he's he's five, so it's
still brand new and it's safe, and he's in a
controlled environment and just so much fun.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Well, and it is fun, like training doesn't have to
be miserable. That's whether you're doing it in VR or
in real life. Like, it should be fun, man, you
should enjoy it. You'll get more out of it if
you do. Nobody wants to do shit they don't like
to do.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yeah, well, there's.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Pilots in my sake. You know what.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Doing dishes isn't fun. Well not until you get your
VR dishes. Then that's going to be awesome. And I
know that you just you you mentioned it. I think
before we started holes and walls. That kind of shows
you how people get into it. And I had a
buddy tried it out and he might have put a
hole in a or at least a dent in a wall.
And it's because it's immersive. You are in the in

(51:06):
the environment, you're in the moment.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Put this three twenty. You can see the front sight's chipped. Yep.
Definitely put it through the drywall when I was testing
some stuff, Yeah, because I was trying to get around
a barricade and bam, and I was like, oh, she's.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Going to be so mad. Yep, yep. But it is immersive.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
It is yeah, yeah, virtual reality, and it's getting better
every time. Like that's a lot of that's you know,
just the hardware advancements are going so fast. It's kind
of terrifying, Like we will be in the matrix at
some point with these things, hopefully voluntarily.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
But maybe we already. I think we're there.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Maybe every time I have the bad judgment to turn
the news on, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, we're in
a simulation at this point. There's just somebody with a
keyboard is trying to figure out how far we will
go before we absolutely dive into a volcano.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
So ACE for everybody is like a super important part
of not the strategy, but more the philosophy where it's
such a not hey, all right, I'm dating a new
you partner and they are not a gun person and
I am a gun lunatic, and they think it's a

(52:22):
little weird, and how do I introduce them to this
without Like Caleb said last time, if you put a
four to sixty revolver in a new shooter's hand to
see what happens.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
I hate you and I hope you die.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, I don't hope you die, but I do kind
of hate you, and I don't have to hope, like
it'll be a self correcting problem at some point. So, dude,
this is a great way like a non threatening, non
you know, the stigma of violence that surrounds guns that
none of us watching this or participating in it subscribe to. Right,

(53:00):
this gun has done some violence. Yeah, this gun has
been sitting on a rack for the last ten years
and hadn't done anything violent because nobody picked it up
and did anything violent with guns aren't inherently violent. But
that's the perception we've gotten now. An ace is.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
A really, really good tool.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
To change that perception for people. Hey man, this is fun,
Like you're not shooting people in Issua, shooting targets, and
it's very deliberate for a number of reasons, but it's
a training tool. It's to make you safer and more
competent and just increase your overall skill with the firearm
in a way that's accessible to everyone. And when we

(53:40):
say everyone, we mean everyone. The people that hate guns
are a great Canada to put a headset on and
be like, hey man, like this is not.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
What you think it is.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
All the way through that world champion shooter that's extremely
competent with firearms, and we'll talk about competition versus you know,
other applications for a firearm too. That's a that's a
good segue, but aces for everybody. It's a great way
to teach kids to be safe for the firearm. It's
a great way to teach new shooters to be safe
for the firearm, because guess what if you do something unsafe,

(54:13):
you get a big warning in the game and it
shuts you down. You know, break the one, break the
one eighty on range, See what happens?

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Shoot it?

Speaker 2 (54:22):
No, shoot see what happens.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
That's another good point as so, if I'm with someone else,
I'm not seeing what they're doing unless I'm streaming it
to a lesser stroone or TV. But for the most part,
I don't see what they're doing. So I'm paying attention
to what they're doing. I'm making sure they're not running
into things. I'm also watching their trigger finger. Yeah, and
if they're not shooting things, well where should the trigger
be or the finger? It should probably be along the side.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
So ACE can appeal to such a broad spectrum of people, right,
the person who has never handled a firearm is a
great candidate to get something out of ACE.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
The person who only handles a firearm is a great
Canada to get something out of ACE. And that's a
really cool position to be in right now. If you
do go in there, you'll see that most of the
stages are I mean, they're all on a square bay
with a number of target configurations. We've got hundreds and
hundreds of stages and drills in there. And you know,

(55:21):
it would be like, oh, this is a competition thing.
So this is a segue from ACE. But like you've
heard me say it for two decades, like, I don't
shoot competition. It'll get you killed on the streets. Okay, cool.
I don't know anyone that's ever been in a lot
of shootings that has said that, Because what do you

(55:42):
do in competent How are you rewarded in competition shooting?
Like what gets you a reward? Shooting fast, accurate, efficiently
handling your gun, and using good target discrimination. Right, Like,
those are the things that made you successful in competition shooting.
It's gonna blow your mind when I tell you gunfights
are competitions. The price price table is somewhat different, but

(56:07):
make no mistake.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Like it's the essence of a competition.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
You could have a winner and a loser, right, and
the things you get rewarded for in competition shooting. You know,
fast and accurate, safe and efficient gun handling, good target discrimination,
and good information processing. None of those, not one of
those things has ever been a disabler in a fight.

(56:34):
They can only be in enabler. In reality, you've just
like psyched yourself up and told everybody else you're such
a badass that you don't want to get beat down
by that dentist that can afford more.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
AMMO than you.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
You don't want to get spanked by an accountant because
you're a big gun total multiicam weare and commando like
it's an ego thing. Competition shooting is awesome. There's no
better way to learn good shooting that we all have
access to every day. Like there's nowhere in America for
the most part that you can't find a USPS a match.

(57:08):
And man, if you're not smart enough to differentiate the
skills you learn in competition shooting and the tactics you
use to employ it, you might not should be carrying
a gun around people because you might be too dumb,
unpopular take with some people. Those are exactly the people

(57:28):
I'm talking about. Yeah, so, yeah, you just you just
don't want to. You told everybody you were the best,
and when you find out you're not, you'll you'll have
a little little ego issue. And that's why you say
it'll get you killed in the streets. It definitely won't.
It definitely won't. Shooting fast and accurate, it's always good
when you're shooting at somebody.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, and it seems to work well at competition.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, it seems to imagine that I can hit the
thing I want to hit faster than everybody else.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:57):
Yeah, just saying So, I'm going to take a quick
one minute, forty ish second break run some ads for
anyone watching listening, to include you.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
John, if you need to get refill or a very
fast bathroom break. We're going to be right back if
I can find the right link and click on it.
We're going to run ads right now. Lucky Gunner carries
Ammo for sale and only offers in stock cheap Ammo
with fast shipping. Whether you're looking for rifle Ammo and
gun Ammo, rim fire Ammo or shotgun Ammo, You've come

(58:31):
to the best place on the Internet to find it
all in stock and read to ship. Lucky Gunner also
has the popular Lucky Gunner Labs, which provides side by
side comparisons of the best defensive ammunition available today. If
you need Ammo, and really we all do, check out
Luckygunner dot com.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Hey, this is primary and secondary's AI system.

Speaker 6 (58:54):
Filster kicked off by producing high quality holsters and in
depth instructional videos on YouTube. Currently Filter cre it's industry
setting usable trends with their designs. With that same mission
of effective concealment in mind, they've expanded a substantial library
of educational content on concealed carry techniques and best practices.
Now they've even got phil They're own aisisted to help
you navigate all those options and pay what works best

(59:15):
for you.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
For more information, visit Filsterholsters dot com. Walter is the
performance leader in the firearms industry renowned throughout the world
for its innovation since Carl Walter and his son Fritz
created the first blowback semi automatic pistol in nineteen oh eight. Today,
the innovative spirit builds off the invention of the concealed
carry gun with a PPK series by creating the ppq

(59:36):
pps and the Q five match steel frame series. Military
police and other government security groups in every country of
the world have relied on the high quality, craftsmanship and
rugged durability of Walter products. Walter continues its long tradition
of technical expertise and innovation in the design and production
of firearms. For more information, visit walterarms dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
And it's funny because as soon as that ended, we
were right at the one hour mark, nailed it. That's
planning or it's just yeah, coincidence. Now you guys have development,
you guys have things in the works. You're evolving not
only in the handsets but also the apps, also the capabilities,

(01:00:21):
as well as the demographics and the potential clientele.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
How much of that can you talk about a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
I don't think I'll get fined for it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
It should be fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
I've haven't shoot out before.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Because there is there is a government side, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Absolutely, So yeah, well we'll talk about some user groups.
But when I said ACES for everyone, like we need man,
there is a vision. Remember when I said you still
have to shoot your gun.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Yeah, yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
I always want you to want to go to the
range right the way ACES now it exists, so you
can go to the range. Would be better internally, like
when you ask me, like what do you try to
do every day?

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
I want to make your range obsolete.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
And now I'll explain that I want to get I
want you to have no reason to ever.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Go to the range again. I want you to live
in the matrix.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
And that's not to say, like, dude, I want to
retire so I can have a range in my backyard
and I can go, like load five hundred lineball, lob
it out and see how hard it hits the steel,
and then go pet my dog. You know, I don't
actually want ranges to go away, but when I talk
about how we want to develop ACE and what we

(01:01:34):
want it to grow into, I want ranges to go away.
So like you know, if there's a sign above my
desk to make ranges obsolete, I don't want you to
have to shoot your gun to get recoil. I don't
want you to have to shoot. And some of this
is technology limited. You know, three headsets from now will
be having a different conversation. But yeah, I don't want
you to have a reason to go to the range.

(01:01:54):
Whatever you do, I want you to be able to
do it in ace one day, and that day is probably,
you know, I will probably not live to see it.
That's how long it would take to bring all of
shooting into in a virtual space. But as far as
a goal to make sure we give the customer the
absolute best experience we can, I want you to want
to go to the range. I don't want you to

(01:02:15):
need to go to the range anymore. So like, internally,
that's kind of little, my little internal Madras is making
ranges obsolete. If yes, then we're doing the right thing.
If no, we need to take a hard peek at
what we're doing. So again, I have the least important,
you know, primary responsibility in the company. This thing has

(01:02:39):
got to not make you go I don't want to
use it. But there's no way we could ever make
hardware so good that it would overcome a bad.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
And app experience.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
So really the bread and butter is that feeling you
get when you put that headset on and forget that
you're in your living room. You're like the buzzer is
going off, I am on the range, I have to
do this thing and you are totally immersed. Like that
is the core of what makes a special over over
any other way to do this, and hardware has just

(01:03:12):
got to support that. It can't be bad, but it's
it's never going to be so good that it overcomes
a bad and app experience. So that's really when we
talk about like where you get your value as a user,
it's the software having a having an accurately weighted gun
with an appropriate trigger pull that feels like you're you know,

(01:03:34):
there was the thing I got handsense everywhere. This one
didn't have an FCU because I took it out to
put a prototype hand set blank. When I pick up
this tacanop and this Tecano P yeah, close my eyes, dude,
they're they're the same, fairly accurate on the waiting, you know,
minus the light in the in the comp and the ooptic.

(01:03:55):
But there's no doubt Like when I shoot this well
in ace and then go back to the range, I
will shoot that gun better and then so that's what
hardware has got to do. On the software side, we
have the whole spectrum of skills that you need to
be a good shooter. That we have to find good, effective, engaging,

(01:04:17):
accurate ways to relate to the user. So that's a
really deliberate process, and it's kind of like anything else. Man,
we're a small company where we're you know, twenty ish
people now and a lot of those are in the
last year, eighteen months into it. Like we are a startup, startup,

(01:04:39):
small company figuring this thing out. So you know, we
hear everybody, Hey, we want recoil cool. Then you get
into the technical side and the cost aspect of it,
and you know, I could have a soul annoid do
recoil in one direction, there's nothing that drives it in
the other one. Then there's co two, but you got
to charge it. There's a lot of different mechanics ways

(01:05:00):
to do it, and then there's a durability aspect of it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Then we've got to figure out what to do with.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
That controller on top of all things are happening, So
like right now, there's some technical limitations to it. On
the hardware and software side, but ultimately, like if I'm
seventy five years old janitor Emeritis of ACE, you know,
just a shareholder, then you know this massive public tech

(01:05:26):
giant fingers crossed, you know, whatever, whatever far fetch scenario
you come up with, I want to look at it
and be like, I don't ever need to go to
the range again. I just want to go to the range.
And that's that's kind of the mantra that provides you
the user and the customer and the new shooter and
the law enforcement guy that doesn't get the range time

(01:05:47):
you wish he got. The guy working in an embassy
and Waga doogu that can't shoot for six months while
he's there. Like a way to give all of these
people the training they need when they need it, where
they need it, how they need it is the ultimate down.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
Well for me, I remember going through going through handgun
course and being happy with the results, and that was
a motivator for me to go go to the range
a little bit more. I was enjoying it. More red
dots come on the scene. I'm shooting better than I
have before because of this. This is really cool. I
want to shoot more. These come out I'm throwing in hours,

(01:06:30):
just enjoying this whole thing and thinking, hey, let's see
it in real life and going this is paying off.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
I like this and it's just a great cycle that
it just builds itself as long as you're putting in
the time. Yeah. Yeah, just owning this it doesn't do it.
You have to use it, yep, like anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
You know, people see some giant at the JEB like, yeah,
but he's on steroids.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Like, we don't just take steroids and.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Look like that. You still got to go to the
gym for eight hours a day. Yeah, you still got
to put the work in like buying it. You can't
buy skill, but you can you can buy ways to
improve it. So yeah, ultimately I would love ranges to
be obsolete. I think as an internal goal that's a
pretty good one. That way, when you do go to

(01:07:15):
the range man, you're the best you could possibly be.
And as the technology improves and our understanding of it,
then people's needs evolve and equipment involves. That's uh, you know,
just great opportunities for us to give you more of
what's hard to get on your own.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
And I'm just thinking about my own experience with this
and how easy it is to set up and how
great it would be if PDS had it available. You
know what, you have some downtime and maybe instead of
hitting the gym for the full time, yeah, take a
little bit and just get some reps in on on
the ACE. We know because we're.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
On P and S. Let's talk about the professional side
of it. So we do as you mentioned earlier, we've
got an enterprise side that's kind of the end app
experience like when you hear the buzzer go off and
shoot is the same, but there's some enterprise management things
where you know your department can buy it, and there's
a number of licenses and a different level of support,

(01:08:13):
and really like the account access to it is the
real key right now. And we'll talk about some of
the expansions we want to do here in a little bit.
So we have an enterprise side where you've got a
dedicated support team so you can run agency in organizational
level accounts basically for ACE. And that's really important because,

(01:08:39):
like I think we can all agree, if I get
taken hostage tomorrow, I am more capable than the dude
coming to rescue me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
If it's my local guys like hand stout.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Right, I've got so many friends that are cops, and
most of my friends that are cops are serious training guys.
That's how I met him, That's how I met you,
and that's how I met so many of these guys.
And then I hear the stories of all the dudes
that are like, hey man, we need you to go
to the range. H it's or paying overtime. And when

(01:09:19):
I used to teach agency level classes, you could tell
there so many dudes that just didn't want to be
there because they did the bare minimum and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
This was a bus drive for the minimum.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
I don't want to be here shooting, like this was
supposed to be my day off, and I get it,
you need time off, but like it's pretty you know,
those dudes didn't get anything out of the training. The
other guys did, Like, you know, it's hard not to
have fun on the range, like Steve Fisher or Chuck.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
You know, it's hard not to have a good time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
But man, some of those even found a way.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
And then I'm like, those are people with the bad attitudes.
They can't help but have a good time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
Some of them. And you know, it's like we're out
there and it's dude, you got Steve Fisher out here
putting on the show, and you're just complaining that you
got to be out here. Like, and if I go
in the grocery store and some dude when the gun
comes in, you're the one, Like you can get to
the bronze side of a party, you're the dude coming
to save me. I don't think that's something an app

(01:10:19):
can overcome. But it's certainly access to training that's actually
a big tangent. But it's certainly access to training that
the guys that want to train don't even have the time,
the budget. I mean, you're you're in l E and
I don't know if your department's seen it, but like
you've got a fixed amount of money, and as like

(01:10:41):
social circumstances in America kind of dictate we're going to
take money away.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
From this like and go to that. Yeah, well, and
then money is not just for AMMO.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
It's for everything.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
It's for everything.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
It's to cover the shifts, it's for making sure people
making sure we have the coverage well people are at training,
and to pay the people at training.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Yeah, the fuel, the overtime that AMO, the ros, the
equipment to send a police department to the range?

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Is how much? How much does this save for that?
All of it? Most of it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Yeah, Yeah, it's just you're discipline to use it. So
as a training tool for military and law enforcement. Kind
of as an anecdote, We've got a young guy that
works at ACE. He did five years in the Marine
Corps as a part of the Presidential Guard, so he
was at the White House for a few years. Then
he was a Camp David for a few years. So

(01:11:38):
joins the Marine Corps like urago to go wherever be
a marine. And they're like, cool, man, you're going to
be a Presidential Guard because you're six foot one and handsome,
and you will look good. You look like a recruiting poster.
Do this, dude is awesome. So we had a trip
to Northern Virginia to go see some customers and I

(01:11:59):
had to fly out, and he's like, when we go
see my ol guys at Camp David. He's only been
out a few months. So he takes an ACE unit
up there and do they were not giving that thing back.
I was like, dude, just write that thing off. It
lives there now. So left a headset and a handset
with them, and we could track the demo account. Those
dudes on that guard shift like they kept that thing

(01:12:21):
running twenty four hours a day, hot swapping the batteries.
I want to say they fired two hundred and forty
thousand rounds in a day and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Sounds about right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
And again, you know they probably get an additional level
of training that your lime marine might.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Not mostly and that it's to that next level.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
And they sure saw the value in it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
And it's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
Like, man, we'll do fun stuff more. It doesn't have
to be miserable to be training. It can be fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
Unless you're training for an ultra marathon.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
You can have fun training. If you do think that's fun,
you're a weirdo. Please delete my number if you have it.
But shooting, man, shooting can be fun and you'll be
better at it, and it's fun. So but to see,
like to watch that demo account where like loghead of
the what quarter million rounds in a couple of days.

(01:13:16):
I mean they were all at a target, they were
all for some purpose, and that's just something that's not
achievable with live fires. So there are some definite advantages
on the enterprise side, and you know, we're working with
some departments right now, and then I just have some
ideas of like what levels they could use it. A
remedial training is a good one. Cool, you've got a
new recall sensitive officer, you've got someone that can't wrap

(01:13:40):
their head around the call. They've never done it before,
which like is intimidating if you've never done it before.
As a way to do remedial training. And then we've
got like high end LA units that are shooting their calls,
mimicking them an ace for a period of time and

(01:14:00):
shooting them again. And just like do the other commitments,
they've got their seeing improvements in their call scores. And
it's not via live fire, so there's definitely you know,
where there's smoke, there's fire here. It's super valuable as
a training tool, especially for people that are resource constrained,
like I think we all know most police departments to be.
And I don't care if you're the highest funded, giant

(01:14:23):
fifty thousand department in the country or three guys in
the middle of Iowa and a town of five people.
No one gets to do it as much as they want.
And you know, that was the same as my military career,
Like you guys must be the best shooters in the world. Like, no,
we hire those dudes because that dude doesn't have to
keep his chamber calls to jump or dive. That dude

(01:14:46):
doesn't have to do You know, Jerry Barnhart doesn't have
to worry about being deployed for four months and not
being able to shoot because he's in some embassy somewhere,
Like he can just come in and just be the
best in the world your parachutes. Hey, man, Like that
dude is the best parachute flyer in the world. I
am just good enough to get on the ground without

(01:15:08):
killing myself. I'm gonna have income show me how to
do that. So you know, we've all got all those
other skills to keep up. You've got all your continuing ad,
your use of force, all of your first aid, you
name it. Driving, You've got to qualify and over things
a year, and you can't shoot full time. This is
way to bridge that gap, and it's super effective at it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
Are you able to discuss the differences in targets on
that side so right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
Now there are none? Yep? You know, I mean you
don't really shoot humanoid call targets either For the most part,
most all the agencies we've seen, it's all target based.
It's all you know, it's a target you could pick
out of a stock physically and hang on a cardboard
factor right now, you know, we're heavy on ipseck and

(01:15:58):
IDPA targets and steel because again the skills.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Translate, and clay pigeons and liter bottles and getting.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Watermelons on the front, the zombies, the drones on the
thrills ranges. But you know, for right now like that,
we're not in the decision making space. The platform certainly
has some application there, but we're not there yet.

Speaker 3 (01:16:26):
So you brought up and the very very slight tangent,
but I see so much value to it the zombie level. Yeah, okay,
we have a moving target that some sometimes going behind
some some concealment, and if you're able to track it,
your shots might land if you're if you're good at
what you're doing. There's some legitimate value right there, as

(01:16:50):
silly as it may seem. Yeah, zombies on those stages.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Yeah, the targets are there's a different hit factor per
store on and the shoot it in the face or
the center of the chest, it will go away faster
than if you shoot it in the hips or in
the shoulders. So you know, the higher the scoring ring,
the more the more damage it's doing, as it were.

(01:17:15):
And so you know, certainly we want all the stages
to reinforce a balance of speed and accuracy, and you know,
reward good shooting, not fast shooting, not accurate shooting, but
good shooting whatever your definition of good as mine is
the most speed and accuracy possible combined. So that's going

(01:17:36):
to be different for everybody, but the app generally rewards that.
Certainly the competition stages do, and the thrills do too.
And you know, I think the drones were just something
that was programmed in there. Yeah, it's not anti you know,
it's not like learning to shoot down drones.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
But if you got YouTube these days.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):
Yeah, but just to have non static targets, yeah, fantastics.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Yeah, we've got some like marathon and style rollers and
a couple of the ranges. They're not integrated into the
scored competition stages, but we've certainly got a huge variety
of targets. And when we talk some of the stuff
I am comfortable talking about for the future. We have
a ranger ranger in there, and it's four or five
different targets that you can put at four or five

(01:18:28):
different ranges. There's five level one, two, three, four, five,
and you can pick all right, two Texas stars and
three impsick targets in the middle or whatever combination of
them you want. You can put them at any distance
of the five and any of the targets at the five.
One thing we know, we just have to get over

(01:18:49):
a couple backside hurdles and it might take a while.
It is like a fully featured range ranger like that's
on our radar. We get people asking for it every day.
I promise you we all agree with everybody how important
that is that you have some robust interface where you
can go in there and pick from any of the targets,

(01:19:09):
put them anywhere, set the part time, set the shooting order,
set all the conditions. You can design your own stage.
One you've been able to design your own stage and
that really opens up and it's a huge lift that
one me and the software guys agree will be a hugelyft.
Nobody thinks that's an easy button push. It's really difficult
to develop that and do it right, but it's something

(01:19:32):
we are. We are painfully aware everyone wants that. We
want it to You just got to figure out how
to get there. But it's it's something we want to
do because that really opens up for your l guys.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Exactly, that's exactly what I was going to be.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Man, Just make your call.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
And exactly shoot your will. Cool is that we'd.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
Love to be able to make your call with you
for you like. But I mean, I'm here to tell
you if I had to do hardware by myself for
the rest of my life, fortunately I don't. Right now,
I've got Aaron, the genius founder that helps me on
hardard more appropriate, I help Aaron on hardware because guess
what he can guess what? He also had to design.
He didn't just have to learn to code and make
the app. He had to learn three D modeling and

(01:20:15):
learn to be a design engineer and have these handsets.
I left that part out. I think that's super important.
He didn't just learn to program appy, I to make
the handset to go with it so he could have one,
which again blows my mind. But we want a fully
featured Ranger. Ranger we want so many features in here,

(01:20:36):
and you know, small team, we're limited on development capacity.
If we had a million developers, we would want a
million one. Yeah, because it's just we could do more
stuff than.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
How often are the stages updated. There's a rotation.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
We try to release stages every week. Okay, we've tried
to release something every week where we're really neat about it.
That team is phenomenal. Man, there are workhorses. I don't
know when they sleep. They probably do, I guess I've
never seen them do it, Like even at off sites,
you know, like our head of software, Chris, I would
go to bed at like eleven o'clock, which is way

(01:21:15):
late for me of a nine o'clock guy. But you know,
we're all together. We're working through a bunch of stuff.
We're trying to make the most of our time.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
I go to bed at eleven. That dude is upcoding.
I get up before thirty in the morning. That dude
is upcoding.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Yeah. I guess you just I guess you just don't
sleep well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
I remember logging in and checking out all the new stages,
and there was one that had vehicles in it. I thought, oh,
this is interesting log in. It's it's just and it's
proportionate it's like, oh this is this is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Looking around it and cool those levels and the warres
is one, there's a couple others where you have to
maneuver around the vehicles. Yeah, and yeah it's super cool
and you can't actually shoot the targets through the glass,
I believe. So, yeah, those guys are phenomenal, Like they
are the secret sauce man.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
The amount of time they put in and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
So you know, you see the customer facing part of
the app. Behind that, there is a massive giant volume
of code, and that's that's really the limitation with anybody,
not just Ace with Halo, with Grand Theft Auto five
or six that everybody's waiting on for a decade. The

(01:22:30):
amount of backside work you have to do, you know,
on the foundation that supports all that, Like you have
to have that sturdied up. You don't want to build
a castle, you know, on cardboard. So right now we're
making some huge investments in the part of the software
you don't see, and that's really going to allow us
to do new things with part of the software you
do see. Yeah, so you know, I'm that guy. I

(01:22:54):
wish it was super easy, just like why can't you
just make this. Like, then I see what goes into
the make it. I'm like, I will shut up now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
Well, then there was another popular stage where it was
it was it three doors and there are three separate
targets and in one of them is a firearm, and
you need to make a split second decision.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
Yeah, hand cell phones, and every time you successfully complete one,
you go to the next level, and the next level
makes the exposure time shorter.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Yeah, And then we have that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
With the like one of the dot drills that's made
for site acquisition. So in the in the skulls portion,
there's site acquisition and there's basically a slider that goes
across the target and as soon as your site hit
the target, it starts to slide and you have to
get two rounds into it or you fail, and it
it adds time back. But man, that thing will run infinitely.

(01:23:49):
It will just go until there's no way a human
being can do it. So for reinforcing like site acquisition
and target acquisition and some of the other drills that
we do have like a rudimentary room clearing where the
targets are randomly arranged and you go through a doorway
and so there's some you know, there's some very specific

(01:24:12):
things to like home defense and tactical shooting very limited
capacity right now, and you know, again shooting around cover,
shooting accurately, shooting quickly, shooting targets in a little more
efficient order, you know, rather than like traversing the whole
thing three times learning learning how to shoot.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
The arrays of.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Targets all have like very real world applications. But we
do have those skill drills in there that are very
specifically tailored to self defense. Yeah, if there are three guys,
one's got a gun in the other two don't. Like,
that's clearly not necessarily a competition aspect. And you know,
like our plan with all of this stuff is to

(01:24:54):
to expand it. So you know, for the folks that
are getting impatient, just stick with us. It's coming and again,
and that's always the name, like how do we do more?
And it's hard, man, it's rationing and resources doing one
thing we're not doing another at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
You know, one thing I found as myself as an
end user, I see some of these stages and think,
now I'm not going to do that one.

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
Well why not? Why am I not doing that? I
encourage if you have one, try out all the stages.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
Try it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
There's nothing to be embarrassed by, and it's not going
to be a waste of your time.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
If anything, you're going to learn something.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Yeah, and you know so we got the scoring system
too that lets.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
You duck your progress. So when you shoot.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
A drill, you'll see you were put into the rankings.
And it's anonymous. It doesn't say like your social Security
number and address on there. Whatever name you put in
is what pops up up there. If it's Grumble Plants
four twenty, that's what's going to show up. If it's Dave,
that's what's going to show up. If you put your
social Security number and phone number there, it will show up.
So you know you've got the degree of anonymity that

(01:26:04):
you want.

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
You know, Tim Hearron just puts his name in there,
Yes he does. I know he's I recognize multiple names
on there.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Eric Graffl puts his owe in there, Mike Clander puts
his oone in there.

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
There's a bunch of guys that put their.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
Own in there, and that by itself is really interesting too.
Going through the stage, seeing where you're at and then
going above and going oh yeah, okay, how do they
do that?

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
Yep? I mean a lot of those guys are super generous.
You know, we'll talk about some of like other avenues
to connect with ACE because there's really active community around it,
and that's really a big like the community aspect of
it is so critical and important to us. That's another
thing like we want to improve in the app is

(01:26:47):
you know, have the community interaction as good as it
is outside of the app with our fans because the
discord is super active. The Facebook and Reddit are very active,
and if you shoot a stage and you're like, how
does that do?

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
Do that?

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
Most of those dudes that are in the top ten,
and certainly there's a few notable ones that are so
active in the social media communities for ACE, Hey man, like,
how did you get that score?

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Dude?

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
He'll just make a video of it and post it
for everybody. You know, there's no prize table, you know,
other than like if we send you a hat or
a coin or something like, you know, nobody's gonna you're
not gonna wear a jersey from a firearms manufacturer.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
Because you're good at ACE.

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
So everybody is super collaborative and helpful and tous that
it's like, that's the coolest thing. We love that. We
love the community that kind of popped up organically around ACE.
People are really passionate about it. There's an aftermarket for it.
I shoot glocks in my day to day life and
have been for you know, twenty twenty six, twenty seven
years now, and so when I got the handset, I

(01:27:56):
think I got a staccato pee because I shoot a
stacato from time to time, but like, you know, the
glock is my gun. There was on an ACE clock,
So man, I got on Etsy in order to three
D printed block facsimile from a dude, and that's what
I shot until I started at the company, and now
I shooting twenty different handsets. So the aftermarket that's popped

(01:28:21):
up around it has been fantastic. There's guys that make
holsters for them. There's guys that make stands for your
guns so you can display them. It's it's pretty neat,
but the ability to like interact with all these people
and go into a lobby together. We've got a multiplayer
you know room where if you join a law enforcement group,

(01:28:41):
you can create your own group. If you're a USPSA guy.
If you're all these different groups so you can create
a new one, or there's tons of them in there
that might apply to you. Then get on the discord
or the Facebook and be like, hey, when's primary and
secondary gonna have their necks get together? You know, Hey,
six o'clock to night. Let's hop it there and you
can shoot the drills with the guys and talk about

(01:29:02):
it and watch how other people are doing it and
see their scores, and you know you're in there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
Virtually.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
You look like I'm gonna date myself. Matt probably remembers
you remember weebles, the little to your kids.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
The wab Then they wobble, but they don't fall down.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
You look like a weevil. You're ahead and a body
with ear.

Speaker 3 (01:29:20):
Pro And what about ear pro or EyePro? I hope
you they have EyePro. I don't think that's dangerous. That's dangerous.

Speaker 1 (01:29:30):
Yeah, I mean the good news is you're in the Internet.

Speaker 2 (01:29:33):
You're in the cloud, which the software guys taught me
is just someone else's computer. There is no cloud, the claus,
just someone else's computer. So you're you and your buddies
are on the internet together, so your your eyes are safe.
But yeah, man, you can go in there like together, Man,
Matt and I could jump in there together when we're
done here and shoot drills until we got tired of

(01:29:55):
doing it. And that's actually a super cool thing to
be able to go to the range with your buddies
or people around the world with a common interest and
get better together. And it's super effective. Like every now
and then, I'll put this thing on and I'll just
hop into a random room that's got people in it,
and man, it's awesome. It's going to the range with

(01:30:15):
your buds, but without all the hassle of going to
the range with your buds. Yeah, I don't ever want
to go to the range with my buds, but man,
it's a super cool way to bridge that gap. Because again,
you know, we take for granted that like I can
go shoot tomorrow. There's nothing stopping me other than like
if I have a meeting or I got a pond
guy coming to clean my pond out for the winter.

(01:30:36):
But like that's us.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
When you talk to our customers around the world, they're
in a vastly different landscape for their ability to go
interact with a firearm, just interact with one in general.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
You know my last job, I add, some international manufacturer
come over. There are no guns in their country privately
on they are built in a bonded area. They come
and then like they never enter commerce in that country
except to the military. And one of their most senior
executives came over here and took him from the airport

(01:31:12):
to our facility up north and we stopped at the
shields on the way and we go in there and
he's like.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
Hey, can I can I pick that up?

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
I'm like, yeah, man, pick it up, pointed at that
mountain goat on the wall, like yeah, do whatever, you
can pick up anything in here, trying to point it
at anybody. And you know he was he had been
in this business, made millions firearms and had never seen
one for sale in a retail setting, never never been
able to walk in and pick one of the millions

(01:31:46):
of firearms you oversaw the manufacture of. And like that's
the reality and the rest of the world in a
lot of places, and man, the UK where Aaron lives,
like you got to have a TV license and you
got to have a tax stand for a butter knife
or something. I don't know how it works. And so
for us, it's a way to like shoot when we
can't go to the range. For a lot of our

(01:32:06):
customers around the world, this is their only way to
interact with a firearm. Dude, that's that's a badass. That's
super cool that we're able to do that for them
because I clearly we all enjoy this stuff, and for
them to get a get to do that too in
an environment where they can't just drive out and buy
a gun is fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:32:25):
Man Like that makes me. I'm super proud of that.

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):
Well, it's also great motivation to make sure you have
the best product possible. Not only do you have the
end users that they're going to if they see an issue,
oh they're going to recognize it right off the bat.
But for the people that don't know, they're getting the
most accurate representation they can get. For sure, it's pretty
danger and it's it's only going to get better. That's
the other exciting thing. Like, this is the worst headset

(01:32:50):
we're ever going to have to develop it for not
that it's bad by any means, but they're just getting and.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
The grand scheme is the whole scale.

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
Yeah, every time and you update or a new set
of hardware comes out on the on the headset side,
it's going to allow us to do things we can't
currently do. It's just going to get us closer to
you never need to go to the range.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
Yeah, it's fun. Man, there's no there's no end of
the horizon of it. Yeah. This is going to keep
on getting better. It's going to be a fact of life.
It's going to get more commonplace. And you know, every
time it does, we can do more with it. So,
you know, on the firearms side, we're limited to some
degree by the metallic case cartridge. You know, we had

(01:33:39):
l SAT, we had some of the developments to come
out of the next gen squad weapon in the army.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
But like.

Speaker 2 (01:33:46):
Metallurgy and propellants and projectile materials in the brass metallic
cartridge case, we've done a lot with it, and that
technology is not going to get marketing better with the

(01:34:08):
brass case primer and man, like the hybrid case that
SIG did is just enough to give you some real gains.
The rest of the guns pretty you know, a pretty
standard deviation of concepts that already exists.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
It's not a laser.

Speaker 2 (01:34:23):
The true velocity, the polymer cases. You know, again, like
all these things are kind of their first iteration of
these concepts, so they're going to continue to get better.
But you know, we got to gasket a pro joe
and some nitrocellulose based black junk behind it with the
proper and while we're doing that, you know, it's going

(01:34:47):
to limit what we can do when it comes like
digital technology, it's not really not really a slowdown happening
there in the near term. If there is a less
smart enough to know what it'll be, so ignorance is bliss.
But you know, we're going to be able to make
these things better at a rate that probably outpaces the

(01:35:09):
development of firearms, and we'll catch up.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
At some oh without a doubt. Yeah yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):
Again, you know, I'll probably be long retired before before
that happens. I hope to be anyway. But that's the
cool thing about this, Like what couldn't you do with
it on a long enough horizon. Probably nothing. You know,
there's probably nothing with a firearm that if you had
the market and the financial opportunities warranted being a good

(01:35:37):
business decision, there's really nothing you know, on the long
term you you couldn't roll into this conceptually. So that's
an exciting, exciting place to be in. Nobody wants to
run out of stuff to make, and I don't think
we're going to be in that position anytime soon.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Yeah, you know, so I'm thinking I could see the
next iteration of the handset, especially for that five hundred
line ball that you want there, that there's some kind
of an explosive device in the handset or something that
feels like your hand gets hit by a sledgehammer.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
Yeah, man, that's all. It is, like some kind of
like blade sword where if the wrong person holds this,
all stuff shoots out of the handle. I'm just thinking
into something like that. So, you know, I'm thinking of
it actual reloading room and put too much H one
to ten and a cold load. It glows the gun
in half. I get the real virtual experience.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
Oops, it would be technically feasible, but I don't think
I can confidently say that's probably not one will pursue.

Speaker 3 (01:36:34):
Yeah, having been shooting this buffalo bore four fifty four
a bit, yeah that's not the most fun. It's cool,
it's cool, but man, right here in my thumb every time.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
Yeah, it turns out man with anything forty four or
above twelve hundred feet per seconds a lot and really
like one thousand to eleven hundred's plenty if you're not
trying to shoot a k buffalo or an elephant or
a mac drag. Yeah, it is fine. Like when we
all start this revolver thing, we all were like, cool man,

(01:37:10):
how much H one ten gets me fourteen hundred feet
per second with a three hundred and twenty five rad
pro Joe, And then after about two weeks we're like,
cool man, how much HP thirty eight or HS six
gets me nine to fifty And I will shoot for
the rest of my life.

Speaker 3 (01:37:27):
Yes, yeah, Well, after shooting this forty or four fifty
four this Riuger Alaskan fantastic gun, shooting forty five colt
out of it is wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
Yeah, absolutely love shooting forty five colt through it.

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):
That for me just like oh there's a life fire
I'm coming on the screen, just like this guy the
three twenty seven Performance Center three twenty seven or three
fifty seven magnum that is a thirty eight special Wade
cutter gun.

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
For me, I will not shoot three fifty seven through
it because that's just dumb.

Speaker 2 (01:37:56):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
That rigor alaskin. Now that's my forty five colt gun.
That's a cool man. I think the most traded in
revolver in history.

Speaker 2 (01:38:04):
And it's a great gun is the UH six twenty
nine PD, three twenty nine p D. The Scandium Smith
forty four.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
Oh pass, No, I got I got one in here.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
I used to remember the number. I think three twenty
nine three twenty nine pd because people get it and
they buy like whatever, like cool man, I want a
bear gun. It's light exactly, And then I'll get some
full house buffalo bar underwood forty four yep. And you
can see like carbon rings on two or three chambers
and not on the other three because they fired three rounds.

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
We're not back and bought a glock twenty.

Speaker 2 (01:38:41):
But that's the purpose of the gun. Great to carry,
terrible to shoot, because we carry him more than we
shoot him. But yeah, I would say that that's the
one that awakens the most people on the market today
to maybe I don't need that much powder, you know.
And dude, I got a bunch of buddies that have
had like rebuilt hands and elbows, and you know, carpal

(01:39:03):
tunnel and they'll still shoot them. Like paid for the
whole case. I'm going to use the whole case Like
not me, buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:09):
You have fun with that exactly exactly cool thing.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
I can shoot a million rounds through one of these,
and I tell you what, no free lunch man. Like
I have a bunion on my finger and I've got
my glock knuckle back because I've used ACE so much.
Like when I first got it, I was bleeding all
over the gun because I just like wore blisters and
I was having so much fun.

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
It was more fun than my hands.

Speaker 2 (01:39:34):
So you definitely get to reinforce your grip and you'll
see it. I mean if you don't have a proper grip,
because there's no recall, right, so I don't have to
grip it for recall control. But if you still don't
have a good fundamental grip, you're gonna get movement in
the sites and you're going to see it, particularly with

(01:39:55):
target to target transitions like ACE will absolutely expose the
flaws in your fundamentals in some cases to the degree
live fire does. In some cases, it won't be as magnified,
but you will still see it. If you're not applying
the fundamentals marksmanship, you're going to get worse results in

(01:40:16):
the app no doubt, which again another huge benefit for it,
Like you can only gain so much stuff in there,
and there is stuff you can gain in there, but
you know your fundamentals and marksmanship are going to be
reinforced at a minimum, if not improved.

Speaker 3 (01:40:33):
That's definitely one one of the things I really also
enjoy with it is after shooting a stage, showing exactly
every shot and based on color.

Speaker 1 (01:40:46):
Code, if it's all green, you're good to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
Go, no less.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
It's really really cool, and it's like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:40:54):
Remarkably stable too, like you won't see you won't trick
the system too many times, you know, every I don't know,
I'll say every ten thousand rounds I might have, like
when I'm shooting through targets at one behind it, it
would pick it up as a miss on one of
the targets.

Speaker 1 (01:41:10):
And then sometimes we even have to go back and
look like noe.

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
By shot about order that one was on me. But
that system, like it's super accurate and really like glitch free,
Like if it says you did something, there's a ninety
nine point percent you did what it said with time
and splits and the other thing like I'm learning about

(01:41:33):
on the on the business side, like how software works
and what people care about, and how a subscription based
model works, because like everybody else, we're going to pay
one hundred and fifty bucks once than one hundred and
fifty bucks a year. But it cost us money to
do this, so a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:41:53):
You think machinists are expensive developers, somebody developers are expensive
good ones because you don't on a bad one. But
we've got like an call it ninety nine point nine
to nine percent, like crash free rate. It's a remarkably
stable app. It's not super buggy. If we do get
a bug at software, we will fix it immediately. We

(01:42:17):
got a wonderful support team and like if something needs
to be tweaked in there, we are take pride in
being super prompt on making sure when you go in
there it works and if for some reason something is
not working right, we fix it right away. Man. We
people do not suffer from malfunctions an ace. Also to clarify,

(01:42:41):
we don't have malfunctions right now. But like the end
app experience is very very stable. Does a crash even
with a bunch of people in their user interface is
super important because like it's got to be it's got
to be fun and easier. People won't do it and
we want you to use it. I'll be totally transparent.
We want you in that app as as much as

(01:43:02):
you can stomach being in that app. It's good for us.
We get more feedback, we get more use, We want
you to get your money's worth. Yeah, it's like extremely
customer centric. Yeah, well you mentioned the red dot selection.
There's also firearms selection well, and there's a good number
of firearms that are available. It's good and like that's

(01:43:24):
one you know, ultimately when we talk about, like if
I could snap my fingers, if I had a genie
with three wishes. One would be that you never need
to go to the range, you just want to go
to the range. The second one would be that any
equipment you have is available in ACE. Yeah, Like that's
the ultimate goal. Man. I don't ever want a prospective

(01:43:47):
user or a longtime user to not have the equipment
they want to use in the app. So every time
we add one, every time we add a dot color,
every time we add a new dot, every time we
add a firearm, and we've got a lot of the
works over the next year. Like, I don't ever want
the barrier to you participating in ace being like I

(01:44:09):
can't get the dot I want, or I can't get
the gun I want. Yeah, So we're going to try
to recruit all the manufacturers we can into it. I mean,
so far we've got we've got some big ones. So
we've got a lot of other ones in the works.

Speaker 1 (01:44:20):
I'm excited for the high point singing and staccato.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
Oh yeah, man, me too. It's my favorite gun. It's
there back when everybody's like show your pocket, dumb But
I had one hundred dollars bill that high point that
I throw out there. I've still got it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
It's right over there.

Speaker 2 (01:44:35):
In a safe.

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
I have one that I sprained it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:38):
I spray painted mind bright orange.

Speaker 2 (01:44:44):
This is what Definitely, it's not just any high point.
It is a complete one hundred dollars bill Hydrid high point.
And you know the gun was seventy bucks and it's
got like twenty two hundred bucks printed on it. So
I gotta been losing money if I didn't buy it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:05):
It's true, it's an investment.

Speaker 2 (01:45:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they don't know when every.

Speaker 1 (01:45:10):
Day, when's the handset coming for that?

Speaker 2 (01:45:13):
I don't know, it's you know, hey, like every gun
on Earth is on the list. Some are higher on
the list than others. Yeah, and I'm not saying you
will never see a high point and so it's a
cool thing, though, say never, I could see probably it's
probably not going to be anytime soon.

Speaker 3 (01:45:30):
Well, I could see a new that niche a new
capability with your handsets. Once the gun goes dry, you
use it as a hammer or as a blunt blunt weapon,
and that's you finish out your call by bashing the target.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
You know, I think if I did take that to
our CEO, he's a he's our ultimately, he's he's where
the buck stops. You know, he would probably laugh me
out of the room. I give about two of those
a year, maybe again, so we could do everything. I'm

(01:46:07):
not saying we are going.

Speaker 3 (01:46:08):
But why Yeah, because yeah, something like that would purely novelty.

Speaker 1 (01:46:14):
But why now? What about long guns?

Speaker 2 (01:46:17):
Yeah, you know, we're we're not oblivious to the request
for long guns and the applicability of them. And you
know another thing, would we just have to manage our
resources right now? Yeah, it's it's certainly something that's on
our radar. Yeah, I don't know how or when, but
you know, we know.

Speaker 3 (01:46:38):
Well that being said, the cool thing about having a
VR handset that would be a long gun is it
doesn't need to be the complete long gun, just where
the just where you are physically interfacing.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
Yeah, that's all.

Speaker 3 (01:46:49):
Yeah, maybe a rail four end or or mlock four
end and that grip and it's good to go.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
It's it's definitely something where we're looking at, thinking through
figuring out, you know, how if when to execute it.
But of course, you know, there's no denying the market
for long guns is tremendous and yeah, and an ACE
is a great candidate for it.

Speaker 3 (01:47:16):
So now there you Goinally, so I'm guessing you can't
see that, but I'll throw this on there.

Speaker 2 (01:47:23):
I can.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
I can see it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:24):
I just can't respond.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
So just make an AR lower an AR lower handset
so you can put your real upper on.

Speaker 1 (01:47:32):
Well, we'd still have to have somewhere to put the controller.

Speaker 2 (01:47:35):
That's the rouble.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
It'll be, I know, yeah, it underneath the handset.

Speaker 2 (01:47:42):
I've got to have a way to pull the trigger
on the thing. But no, we're we're definitely very very
aware of the need for a long run.

Speaker 1 (01:47:52):
Yeah. Yeah, well then also going from their.

Speaker 2 (01:47:55):
Commitment to that yeah it's it's, it's on the.

Speaker 1 (01:47:58):
List, then.

Speaker 3 (01:48:01):
Expanding the software, and then getting into not so much
more video gaming, but I could see some more scenario
based especially on maybe the more controlled side entry stuff
and running subguns or are Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:16):
Well, you know, we've were fortunate that our development group
is not just the people at the company, but all
the users because we've got such an active community. And certainly,
like when we talk to enterprise customers, if I were
going to fly out there tomorrow with our enterprise guy,
who again is much smarter than me, and listen to
him talk to you, we know, like professional users are

(01:48:38):
going to ask for situational stuff most certainly because how
cool would it be if when school's out for the day,
the school resource officer could put this thing on and
run different scenarios or in a hospital or you know,
in the parking lot around your cruisers. Yeah, you really,
all you need is the headset and if you have

(01:49:00):
a prop like that, because one of the things that
it's not super refined in ACE, but it's a capability
of the headset is mixed reality.

Speaker 1 (01:49:08):
I was just thinking that, and yes, we have a
couple of those stages.

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
So how cool if you could could do that in
any of the scenarios where that would be valuable to you,
whether it's a home that at work as an l
E guy. And there are some hardware limitations with that
right now, like the technical capability and how much information
it can store and process. But again, like you know,

(01:49:32):
we know that ultimately that's something professional users are going
to ask for and we just got to figure out how, if,
and when to execute it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:42):
Yep, good stuff because.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
It's man, that's another thing it's like super hard to do.
We see, like active shooter training is such a big,
big segment of the training market and a big focus
for agencies as it as it should be and has.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
To be now, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
I mean, frankly, I don't know if I should say this,
but like nobody on earth wants to be the cop
that didn't go in at UVAULDI yeah, I mean, no
one wants to be that guy right, wrong or indifferent,
Like I don't know, I don't know what happened. I
wasn't there, So my perception of it's what I see
in the news and hear from people and like, nobody

(01:50:21):
wants to be that guy. And I gotta imagine anybody
that carries a gun for a living, Like, no one
wants to stand by and see innocent people be harmed. So,
you know, if there's a way down the road that
ACE could be an enabler to help people be more
prepared for that, it's going to keep happening. I think
we all know now, like active shooters are here to stay.
We haven't seen the last one. If there's a way

(01:50:45):
to be a part of solving that problem, save in
somebody's life, make it someone more prepared to do it, Like, yeah,
of course we want to do that. That's such a
good application for the for the headset technology that you know,
when we can get there, we'll be super happy to

(01:51:07):
be a part of it. You know that that's a
common request from some of those guys. And then you
know when we talk to administrators on the lay side
in particular, like hey, do you want a tool that
like you can articulate to your city council and your
mayor reduces liability for your department? You know, and this

(01:51:30):
is not something ACE is invented. It's just ultimately it
would hopefully be a more convenient way to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:38):
You've got fats and all the others that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
You probably know.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
I can't even name them all.

Speaker 2 (01:51:43):
We'll get a two hundred and seventy degree sound screen
for three hundred thousand dollars or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:51:48):
But what you can't do is every department can't afford that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):
Yeah, every department can afford a headset and a handset
ended account, even if it's just like, hey man, the
the FTO has one and you use it like when
you go for firearms training or whatever. You know, the
accessibility of it is really the secret with the meta

(01:52:12):
headset and ACE, where you don't need someone to come
in and set it up, someone trained to use it.
You don't need to send everybody to a sound stage.
You can just kind of happen wherever. And some of
those things are fantastic. I know I can't remember the
name of it, but like when I went to Vortexas
facility last year, they have one, and then the thing

(01:52:32):
was awesome. You get in there, you're in all the
screens and you've got the CO two gun with the
laser and.

Speaker 1 (01:52:40):
I'll see you. Or to find the name of it,
you might know, but really.

Speaker 2 (01:52:43):
Cool system in the scenarios where but you've got to
have a guy run on the computer and based on
what you need a space to do the other thing,
and then you got to have a budget for it.
Then you got like there's no pushing out crazy updates
via whatever channel. Man, Like you get this thing in
the meta store. When we push an update, it pushes

(01:53:03):
it to your headset. So just like all the other
apps on your phone and computer that you used to
use and we're like, oh okay, it went gray and
a circle popped up and I got stuff to date.
When you know, that's another benefit of the system. But
it's just so portable, you know, it's the whole thing
fits in the shoe box and off you go.

Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
See here what backpack is this?

Speaker 3 (01:53:25):
This is the Blade twenty for Marc Terix has been
my carry case.

Speaker 1 (01:53:29):
Ye.

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):
So yeah, man, we've got really an opportunity there to
make it so much more accessible than some of those
big systems. Yeah, you know, you could get fifty of
them right right now. Of course they've got the software
to support it and we don't. And you know, we've
got some development to do to get there. But like

(01:53:52):
really for us on the professional side, the accessibility to
put one in everybody's gear bag is really like, it's
not out of the question. It's not a huge spend
for what you get. Yeah, that's really you know, it
could cost what a new glock does. If you haven't
cost a brand new glock at MSRP lately, you know,

(01:54:15):
it cost what a case and a half an Eyemil
AMMO does and you get so much out of it,
or if you're shooting duty amo half a case of
But you know, Spear gold Dot ain't cheap right now.
So that's really like that's the cool thing for us.
The position to be in is like, if we can

(01:54:37):
hold up our end of the bargain, it could just
redefine the way people trained in general. Yep, yep, might
make it more accessible to him.

Speaker 3 (01:54:47):
Even as the system is as it stands, it's still
a wonderful tool.

Speaker 1 (01:54:52):
Yeah, and so it's only going to get better.

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):
Yeah. It still makes you shoot fast, accurate, that accountability,
which has never been a bad thing in a fight.
I know, Like you know, twenty years ago you and
I were laughing on Light Fighter at some dude with
a New York trigger and on Fifth Street, Manhattan, shooting
twenty two rounds and hitting nothing but glass and walls.
You know, like, would have been pretty cool if that

(01:55:19):
dude had one of these. Yeah, you know, one handed,
one hand went to New York. You know exactly what
video I'm talking about, don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:55:26):
I think I do.

Speaker 2 (01:55:27):
Guy shooting over the planner in front of some building
in Manhattan. It's like, Man, that's the dude that's coming
to save you. Sure be cool if he was trained, Yes,
sure'd be cool if he was competent. Yeah, just an
agency spend the money. Yeah, and you know, you know
what's cheaper than the settlement for the lawsuit and eight

(01:55:51):
hundred bucks that PLP gout shoot better?

Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
Yeah. Well?

Speaker 3 (01:55:55):
And then also though, if there anything like me, if
they're seeing these positive results from ACE, they're going to
be motivated and excited to shoot. And then when they
see the results from that, their enthusiasm for it hopefully
will increase because they are seeing the results. They're saying, oh,
I'm doing I've never.

Speaker 1 (01:56:12):
Shot like this before. I want to keep this up. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:56:15):
When you see it translate in real life, and I
know you have, that's when it like.

Speaker 1 (01:56:21):
The cool factor.

Speaker 2 (01:56:22):
When you put the headset on sundeniable, and that usually
gets people enough on the hook to try it and
stick with it and make an honest effort in ACE.
But what really like galvanizes that is when you get
out to the range and go a week ago, I
could not have done this. Yes, yeah, yeah, And that's
super cool for us, Like we love to see it, man,

(01:56:43):
That's the reward for us is to see the thing
actually work. Like, dude, so we've got, you know, any
means of communication, but like we use Google Chat a
lot at work. We've got all our Google Chat groups
for all the different things. And dude, I don't ever
since I've been there, remember anybody going like, look at

(01:57:06):
how much we sold? Not once. We don't really talk
about money that much other than you know, do we
have enough to do the next thing we need to do.
But like, the financial reward is something we really it's
not a factor in our day to day lives work.
But when we get like a customer comment of like, hey, like,
I shot my highest score ever on my call after

(01:57:27):
using ACE for two weeks, or hey, man, I was
a B class shooter.

Speaker 1 (01:57:33):
Nine months ago and I just made master and.

Speaker 2 (01:57:40):
Attributed to ace, and you know it's not it's all
their other hard work too, Like it's kind of like steroids.

Speaker 1 (01:57:46):
They just didn't do it for him, right, but still
needed to go to gym.

Speaker 2 (01:57:50):
That's the stuff we get excited about, Like, hey man,
I could not have done this a month ago, or
like the amount of improvement I've seen in a month.
Or my wife would never touch a gun, never shot one,
didn't like the fact that I had him in the house,
and she's interested in shooting now because she tried ace.
Like that's the stuff that makes us happy. Don't get

(01:58:13):
me wrong. I like paying my mortgage in all, but
that's important. That's the juice for us. Man, That's what
we get excited about, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:58:22):
Yeah, I am super excited to see what's to come.

Speaker 2 (01:58:27):
I mean, if it's as a dude like me who's
got like all the technical avoidance of like your average
neanderthal like you know, takes batteries out on it other
than red dot sites on your pistol. I got everybody
put on your gun, learn how to use it, stick
with it. You're not faster with irons I got used
for you. You're just you just don't know it yet.

Speaker 1 (01:58:46):
And ACE is a great way to see this. ACE
is a great way to see see how simple dots are. Now.

Speaker 3 (01:58:52):
I do remember reading someone on one of the chats
I think it was on Facebook, on the Facebook user group,
talking about wanting to do an occluded drill.

Speaker 1 (01:59:01):
I thought, I don't know if that's even possible.

Speaker 2 (01:59:04):
It's it's technically feasible.

Speaker 1 (01:59:07):
Are there are the two? Are there actual two separate?

Speaker 3 (01:59:12):
I can't think of what it screens that are transmitting
different information.

Speaker 2 (01:59:17):
To some degree. Yeah, okay, I mean you've got binocular
vision in there. I don't have to talk to the developers,
but I mean there's no reason we couldn't put a
solid surface in front of the dot. I would have
to see on the back side. And again that's one
of those things like it would be neat if it
were easy. Yeah, but right now, I don't know that

(01:59:39):
we would put the resources into it. But again, like
it's on the big spaghetti chart of like everything we'd
like to do.

Speaker 1 (01:59:46):
Certainly on there. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was binocular.
If it was just a solid screen, that's cool. Well,
and it's probably capable of doing both.

Speaker 2 (01:59:58):
I don't know how we.

Speaker 1 (01:59:58):
Would program it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:59):
To make it. Yeah, you can definitely use the screens.
I'm sure there's a way to transmit them independently to
the left and right. Yeah, I just don't know their
ability to do it so because that that gets into
like the metal part of it too, and and their restrictions.

(02:00:19):
Like I said, like, you know, what I would like
to have is just a handset that we have a
board in there. Everything in that controller would fit inside
the handset. It's just metas restrictions on how you talk
to their system. Yeah, or like you will use our controller, bud, Sorry,
and yeah, I mean, I mean, dude, that's the really

(02:00:41):
cool thing about it's the users are definitely our best source.
They kind of make the roadmap pretty easy. Like we
never run out of ideas. You know, my old job
is just like can you make the many fourteen meg?
I'm like, well we could. You know, we're not going on,
but you know, the customers and this, like it's such
an integral part of the feedback loop where it's like,

(02:01:03):
oh dude, that's a good idea. We could do that
super easy. Because it's like any other product. It doesn't
matter if it was pmags or slings or body armor. Internally,
we're kind of all experts on our own product, Like
we know what goes into it day to day.

Speaker 1 (02:01:22):
That's what we live in.

Speaker 2 (02:01:23):
The customer will always find ways to use it that
you don't think about. And you know, your sample size
goes from a dozen people with a critical eye on
it to tens of thousands, and like, man, there's a
lot of value in what comes back out of that.
So if you listen to your customers, customer's not always right.

(02:01:43):
Sometimes they're absolutely not right.

Speaker 1 (02:01:49):
But having those social networks in that connection, that's up
a polite way, and I'll call it retarded, like sometimes
it's retarded, but they no, no, no, we're not doing it.

Speaker 2 (02:01:57):
But sometimes it's like, oh dude, that's a good idea,
and that many eyes on it. Man, there's some nuggets
in there if you're smart enough to go pick them up. Yeah,
there's there is free money out there if you just
listen to people like, hey, man, here's what here's what
I want pay for it. Cool, that's a good idea.
We get a lot of good ideas from our users, man.

(02:02:19):
I'd say like most of our good ideas come from
the users because we're not having to develop a product
that takes four years, if it's a stage tweet to
make something better, more applicable, or we can just do it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:32):
Yeah, good stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):
I can figure out what my dog's doing back there.

Speaker 1 (02:02:38):
Oh found so playing on the ace of dog things.

Speaker 2 (02:02:40):
Yeah, well we're for it.

Speaker 3 (02:02:44):
But we're at two hours now. I think we covered
a lot of great info.

Speaker 1 (02:02:49):
I think we did to a had a list, hit
it all and try it.

Speaker 2 (02:02:54):
We got great customer service, Like those dudes are very engaged.
If you're having a hard time and can't find something out,
if you need support on ACE, just ask them. But
then try it. Take a leap, find somebody that Scott one.
And you know if you're on the fence, when you
get that headset on, you'll be a believer. And that's
really the big thing for us. Like if I could

(02:03:15):
just fly around and be like try this for five minutes,
we could all retire next week would be the size
of Apple. So take my word for it. You know,
I have to deal with the consequences if I bullshit
you here, and I'm not. If you try ACE and
you are serious about firearmstrain, and you will get much
more than your money's worth out of it.

Speaker 3 (02:03:35):
Yeah, and it's a great training tool because I was
thinking about I have some potential upcoming classes where I'm
going to be teaching some basic basic stuff, non law enforcement,
and just thinking I could so easily integrate, especially on
one on one lessons.

Speaker 2 (02:03:52):
Yeah, let's bring it the ACE.

Speaker 1 (02:03:53):
No blasts, no noise, they can hear you. Yeah, and
then stream it to a TV, stream it to my
phone or whatever. It easy, easy day.

Speaker 2 (02:04:03):
Yeah. And being able to stream and watch what people
are doing and you can record it, so you know,
you've got a lot of opportunity there for actual like
training and being a part of that feedback loop like
here is what you did. I didn't do that. No,
let's watch let's watch it. Let's roll the tape, which
is really hard to do in actual firearms train and

(02:04:26):
I know some people have tried it, just like you've
got to have the equipment to do that on the
range and it's and being able to slow it down
is challenging. We're like in VR planet back as slow
as you want is no nothing to do, no problem. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:04:42):
So let's get your final thoughts, final plugs. I wonder
if you're going to say anything about ACE.

Speaker 2 (02:04:50):
Yeah, So because we're on P and S, military, law enforcement,
first responders, at large veterans. You get twenty percent off
for life subscriptions, hardware, everything for you is twenty percent off.
So if you go to acexon dot com, it'll stay

(02:05:12):
right up at the top. Click on there. You can
validate your stuff and save twenty percent off the top.
What I can't save the twenty percent on is the
headsets because we don't make those or sell them. You
can buy a bundle from us with the headset, but
that's just to pass through for us. But the things
you actually buy from ACE for professional users twenty percent off.

(02:05:35):
If you are a trainer at the institutional level and
ACE for Enterprise is appealing to you, there's an enterprise
link on there.

Speaker 1 (02:05:47):
Click on that.

Speaker 2 (02:05:47):
We can get you more information and you know, if
you decide that going the individual route is a better
deal for you, no problem. But we can have our
enterprise guys have a conversation with you. We got dedicated
enterprise support and again they're much smarter than me, and
they will run you through your options and making sure
you're getting the best value out of it. We don't
try to drive anybody that that doesn't need it. We
just we just want to help people use it and

(02:06:09):
get better at shooting. So if commercial is the way
to go for you, great, If enterprise is the way
to go for your for your agency, great.

Speaker 1 (02:06:16):
And we can take care of you there.

Speaker 2 (02:06:18):
So yeah, the website's www dot ASEXR dot com. And
then we are very active on all the social media platforms.
We have a Facebook user group, a very active ACE
Virtual Shooting discord and again like we don't moderate those
those are those are the users like you, So you

(02:06:40):
don't have to take my word for it. You can
go in there and ask, you know, have access to
thousands and thousands of actual users that see the benefit
in it. So that's the best place to find us.
You can call, you can email, you can chat, you
can go into one of those groups and if you
find us, we'll find you. So yeah, try it. I mean,

(02:07:02):
for me, it was a leap. I went from you know,
making firearms accessories for thirteen years to not knowing anything
about VR and immediately kind of seeing the application and
the vision that those guys, all the ones that are
smarter than me, have and you know, if you could
convince me that this was a real thing, I think
we can convince anybody. So if you're a skeptic, no problem.

(02:07:26):
I was a big skeptic too, And you know I'm
not like a ver, you know, anonymous customer service email.
I'm in here under my own name talking to you
about it. So that's important to me. But you will
get what you pay for and then some so try
it and if not, sell it to somebody else that
they can try it.

Speaker 1 (02:07:45):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:07:46):
Most of the people we most of the people we
get online stay in the boat.

Speaker 3 (02:07:51):
So as you were describing that, I already have an
ACE membership, a subscription and all that.

Speaker 1 (02:07:58):
I signed up for the law enforcement thing. It was
that easy.

Speaker 3 (02:08:01):
So the duration that you did that, I'm signed up
now on those same enforcement side.

Speaker 1 (02:08:05):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:08:06):
So yeah, what about what about you on the personal side?
Anything any news and he plugs any uh.

Speaker 2 (02:08:13):
I just moved into a new house and most of
my free time has been on packing boxes. I will
at some point have the great tactical equipment fire sale
like twenty five years and stuff nice.

Speaker 1 (02:08:23):
So you know, I'll let everybody know my gun broker and.

Speaker 2 (02:08:26):
eBay title when I get off. Yeah, so yeah, buy
my stuff. So I don't have to ever move it again.

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:08:32):
Other than that, man, it's it's virtual guns and old
single action revolvers. For me, buddy, it's both ends of
the spectrum.

Speaker 3 (02:08:40):
And I've been talking to Jason about Oh dang it,
what was it? It's the special Lipsy's black Hawk, which
is it? The Taffen the Taffen models, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:08:56):
And forty five Colt That just they're cool, man. I
need to get that. I need to get that.

Speaker 2 (02:09:01):
We're working on some other cool stuff. He hasn't told
me for sure, but assuming looking at the Mountain gun line, Yeah,
got a mountain gun right here. Yeah, brought back to
the mountain gun with no lock. The I want a
forty five cold mountain gun so bad, and I'm not

(02:09:23):
willing to pay what they're going for. And I know
every time I every time I poke him about it,
he's like, oh, you know, you know, we've done really
well those mountain guns. And you know, I'm not going
to speak for Jason or Lipsey's, but I personally am
certain they're going to do it. I have no factual
information to back that up, but that that's going to

(02:09:44):
be the one for me. You know, I love forty
five cold.

Speaker 3 (02:09:46):
Well, and to me it's embarrassing seeing those available forty
five cold mountain guns, thinking, why that's just dumb and
now here I am, I have a better un You're
standing and go, man, that would have been a cool
gun to pick up, had I if I were smart,
if I was s martin, then.

Speaker 1 (02:10:06):
The same velocity and.

Speaker 2 (02:10:09):
With an equal projectile way out of a four inch
mountain gun that you can in eight inch twenty nine.
Yeah yeah, And you know you got to be a
little more conservative with the inframes than you do the ruders,
for sure.

Speaker 1 (02:10:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:10:24):
But you know, and again, unless you like, I paid
for the whole case, I'm going to fill the whole case.
Unless you're one of those guys, there's nothing you can't
do with a load that is perfectly long term safe
in an inframe. You're not going to stretch it, you're
not going to shoot it out of time. With a
load that can do anything you need other than like

(02:10:44):
killing a cake buffalo.

Speaker 1 (02:10:46):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:10:48):
Right now I'm on a mission to figure out, Okay,
what forty five load am I interested in? Most I'm
already using the desert, the high desert stuff for my
plinking what about for carry and so that's my my
current I'm looking in the various harry Ware just Carrie
in the woods, around town both not necessarily so in

(02:11:10):
the woods would be something different, but around town would be.

Speaker 2 (02:11:14):
Yeah, honestly, the factory for the XCP is good. Steeds
XDPD are better, and you know, certainly you're getting handloaded
ammo that's.

Speaker 1 (02:11:25):
Been commercialized these wimen.

Speaker 2 (02:11:28):
But yeah, man, in the forty five and forty four,
that XTP is a very very good bullet. Sounds good,
and they got a new one picked it up the
other day. So what we have here is a pre
war outdoorsman, you know, the thirty eight forty four loading

(02:11:53):
factory four and a half inch barrel that was lettered
to the British Columbia Provincial Police before they were absorbed
into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Speaker 1 (02:12:09):
So this guy initial was fantastic.

Speaker 2 (02:12:12):
Nineteen thirty two went there, and that was back when
you can still have a handgun in Canada relatively unrestricted,
you know. So when they decommissioned them, I can't remember
what they moved to, but one of the officers bought it,
shipped it back to the US and did the full
King's Custom and I think they're in Glendale, California, Legendary

(02:12:33):
Kings for the full package of a mirrored stop. A
little mirror still shines in it, King Sight, Kings Hammer,
and it is probably.

Speaker 1 (02:12:50):
Got a full of snapcaps, fixed fire flint.

Speaker 2 (02:12:54):
I'll say it's a five and a half pound, the
smoothest double action trigger I've ever felt in my life.
And the single action is honestly terrifying. It's like what
I would expect out of an Olympic small board pistol.
But you know I'm gonna shoot a double action because
yea double action gun, So that one is a super

(02:13:17):
cool one. And yeah, the letter goes back to I
think nineteen thirty one or nineteen thirty two, sold to
a distributor and then off to have to check the dates,
I'll to put the letter out, but sometime in the
thirties was a duty gun in Canada and then sold
off to one of the officers and came down for
a full King's Custom package with Keith.

Speaker 1 (02:13:39):
Brown ropers that yeah, and just it looks it's just beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:13:43):
Darryl Bulk and Brian with Y are salty. I have
this guy.

Speaker 1 (02:13:49):
Yes, that's what I was anticipating. Hell, that's part of
why I bought it.

Speaker 2 (02:13:55):
Yeah, yeah, part of why I bought it.

Speaker 1 (02:13:58):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:14:00):
Yeah, Keith Brown's retired. It makes like two sets of
grips a year to fund like vacation travel. So the
grips on it were a nice touch tooo.

Speaker 1 (02:14:08):
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (02:14:10):
So yeah, that's that's this week's new revolver. I did
give another one, the powers Ruger Buckeye Buckeye Do you
remember buck Guys. They were a distributor in Ohio back
back in the day, back in the days, and they
did custom runs of Rugers two kind of like Lipsy's
and Taylor do now, kind of what we're familiar with.

(02:14:31):
So they had a line of convertible guns, convertible Blackhawks.
They were thirty two twenty and thirty two H and
R mag and then they I think they had a
forty four to forty five, which is common now they
still do that. And then they had a ten milimeter
auto and thirty eight forty and they may have had
a forty four to forty forty four special forty four mad.

(02:14:54):
I can't remember so and I got it right here,
So I think they were all seven and a half
inch guns and they had you know, it looks like
an Ohio State football helmet have the buckeye on them.
So this one went to Powers Custom, took the Lawyer
markings off the barrel, put a firm and Garza front

(02:15:16):
side on it. Really nice crown, like an eleven degree
recess crown belt mountain base pen. Doug Turnbull did the
color case hardening on the hammer and frame, bow in
sight on the rear, made a set a really nice
ivory my Karta grips for it. Full action and accuracy package.

(02:15:38):
Then this one's in thirty eight forty and ten mil
thirty eight to forty in an old single action army.
You know, it was one of the first couple of
cartridges they did in the Winchester seventy three into the
single action army, and it was the ten mil of
its day. It was pretty much forty Smith and Wesson.
Terrible to reload. It's got like a really gradual shoulder

(02:15:58):
because it's a neck down forty four forty and it's
super hard to reload. It loves to like crush that
shoulder and crush the case. You got to be in
particular about it. But like forty five Colt in the
single Action Army. You know, we were very pressure limited
by both ammunition technology, metallurgy, and just the dimensions of

(02:16:20):
the cylinder. You can gas this thing up like a
shamp and really turned thirty eight forty into something that
will blow the socks off of the stoutest ten millimeter auto.

Speaker 1 (02:16:34):
But I got both cylinders for it. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:16:37):
The guys like, yeah, it's never been turned. I'm like cool,
I'm going to dry fire at the whole drive home.
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (02:16:41):
I shoot my guns.

Speaker 2 (02:16:42):
So yeah, those were the new Revolver editions this week,
in addition to my virtual reality guns, I.

Speaker 1 (02:16:50):
Have yeahs again we need to do a single action.

Speaker 3 (02:16:54):
We do not nineteen eleven single action love nineteen elevens, buts.

Speaker 2 (02:17:00):
Yeah, And you know we should do on on Old
Smith's too. There's so much history there. Sure when you
get Darryl and Brian and we could get Keith full
on there and sold all those guys and talk old guns.

Speaker 1 (02:17:11):
How are the Old Gun episodes doing. I think they're
very much appreciated.

Speaker 2 (02:17:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:17:17):
That being said, everything primary and secondary is so niche.

Speaker 3 (02:17:21):
The the only people watching it are the people that
are excited about the weirdos, the weirdest because then we
have then there's the other side, which is nothing against Mike,
but the grand thumb type people, and they want to
have this the dress up and the stuff that we
probably aren't going to us Earth people don't have necessarily
access to, don't really ever.

Speaker 2 (02:17:41):
Yeah, but uh, dressed up like that because I got
pentitain stuff like that for a couple of decades and like,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:17:48):
Man, history and concepts are just they're my favorite, my favorite,
and that's and that's why.

Speaker 2 (02:17:56):
Yeah, when you are a body armor and a helmet
around the Middle East, yeah, for like a couple of decades.
Do you'll want to wear that shit for fun? It sucks?

Speaker 1 (02:18:04):
My back hurts, it's hot.

Speaker 2 (02:18:05):
Yeah, I got bone spurs on my neck. I need
neck surgery. Oh, I don't want to wear helmets anymore.
They suck. Nobody ever wore them for fun. Now it's
fun to wear them. I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (02:18:16):
No, No, it's so bass.

Speaker 2 (02:18:19):
And then yeah, mountain gun just keep doing mountain guns. Man,
My goodness, they're killing it with those things.

Speaker 1 (02:18:25):
Well, and that was the first, Uh, that was really
the first. It is the first forty four mag I
ever bought.

Speaker 3 (02:18:33):
And it was because Daryl told me, because I was
telling him, you know, I don't have a forty four
I kind of want to get one, have a better understanding,
And he said, Okay, this is what you want. You
need an old mountain gun. Getting forty four mag you
can shoot your forty four specials. And and I found
one right there.

Speaker 1 (02:18:51):
Uh cool gun m hm.

Speaker 2 (02:18:55):
But dude, I got the two funniest guns on my
desk right now. Like that is both ends.

Speaker 1 (02:19:02):
Of the yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:19:05):
But just the fact that they've come back, dude, that's
just hmmm. I think Darryl's onto something.

Speaker 2 (02:19:10):
You think Jason and lipsies. Man, if it wasn't, we
wouldn't have.

Speaker 1 (02:19:15):
Yes, I'm here to tell.

Speaker 2 (02:19:17):
You Smith and Ruger on their own would make more
rx ms and shields, both of which are great guns.

Speaker 1 (02:19:25):
Man.

Speaker 2 (02:19:26):
What RXm is Dude? That is so much gun for
the money.

Speaker 1 (02:19:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19:30):
I mean when we made that grip frame at Magpole,
you know, I got the very first one, like sitting
out there in a box somewhere, and they brought it
into my office. I was like, man, that's almost too
nice to give away, Like and they're gonna sell. They're
gonna sell a cornerbill into those guns this year more
than that next year.

Speaker 3 (02:19:52):
But even me as much as the Lipses also did
the Ultimate Carreys, which were awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:19:59):
Ye, they did it awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:20:01):
I really like Jason being in being one of the
people that a tremendous amount of knowledge on those guns,
and then his circle of friends being you know, like
the manufacturers would not come up with those guns on
their own and.

Speaker 1 (02:20:18):
It's a shame.

Speaker 3 (02:20:20):
And he almost could, we say, single handedly brought thirty
two back into a spotlight because.

Speaker 1 (02:20:26):
Some of us already loved it.

Speaker 3 (02:20:27):
Yeah, yeah, because he made it way more mainstream because
we already was doing it.

Speaker 2 (02:20:33):
Federal Smith and Ruger coming out with the three twenty
seven great cartridge, you know, and it's a it's a
great sales pitch. Hey man, this this will give you
a thirty eight special plus p or you know, your
your traditional Remington what won twenty grain three fifty seven
mag would do with a modern bullet? So hey, cool,

(02:20:53):
Now you've got six shots in your in your jframe
size gun, which I love. I don't a lot of
three twenty seven I shoot, I shoot stout thirty two
hn R out of it.

Speaker 1 (02:21:06):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (02:21:07):
So, but yeah, man, six shots, like I used to
always tell people with.

Speaker 1 (02:21:16):
I fell out of love with the nineteen eleven is
like a duty gun.

Speaker 2 (02:21:20):
There's a there's an actual like gun I would carry
kind of a long time ago. You know, I used
to tell Chuck all the time, like dude, it's a
jframe with a plus two extension on it, seven rounds man,
And like dude, I'll take that six shot all day long, man,
especially in a in a thirty two HNR that like

(02:21:42):
modern projectile technology. It's it's a really effective little bullet
and not a lot of recoil. You know, three twenty
seven is it's a bit more pressure or whatever it is,
but that that thing has some gusto. It's got some
noise with it.

Speaker 1 (02:21:59):
Man.

Speaker 2 (02:22:01):
But yeah, thirty two h and R out of my
LCR is absolutely my day to day carry gun now
because I don't go anywhere that is statistically unsafe. I know,
bad things can happen anywhere, but like you know, I
go to our the family cabin, my house, shields in

(02:22:22):
the barn with my horses, like that's it. I'm very
unlikely to need to conceal carry this thing. So yeah,
I think that the thirty two h and R in
those pocket guns is like, you know, the best gun
you have is the one you'll carry. Those things are awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:22:41):
Well and then also you see is a rad gun too, Yeah,
and it falls into that niche also of I.

Speaker 3 (02:22:49):
Think I think it's helped with home carry because I
don't think I don't think a lot of people carried
it home as much. Now, and you know there's a
statistic that one hundred percent of home invasions happen at home.

Speaker 2 (02:23:01):
Yeah, yeah, that's what Why should I carry a gun?
Like the guy that shoots, he's gonna have one, so
you should probably have one too, right, how that works? Yeah,
the bad guy had a gun at one hundred percent
of shootings, so.

Speaker 1 (02:23:13):
At least even the playing field a little little.

Speaker 2 (02:23:15):
Yeah, And you know, like my lc R, like I
usually don't take that thing off except in my office,
where I have amount of guns I'm not willing to
admit to on the internet, but it's a whole lot. Yeah,
you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, I'm just
gonna put all that crap on if somebody, if I
hear somebody upstairs that's not heiking so and.

Speaker 1 (02:23:39):
The dog isn't letting you know, so, yeah, she definitely
will crazy. It's my intern, ye paid intern.

Speaker 2 (02:23:53):
Yeah, this is her ass bull, lab and beagle mix.

Speaker 1 (02:24:02):
Oh that's an interesting combination.

Speaker 2 (02:24:04):
Yeah, the best watchdog ever. But this is what she
does all day. Like this why I don't get anything
done half the time because she'll just like climb up
in my lap and it's like, okay, we'll just do
this for a while. She's over right here.

Speaker 1 (02:24:17):
But pitbull, lable, lab, beagle and then like twenty other
you know, less than one percent things. Yeah, an American super.

Speaker 2 (02:24:26):
Mutt yea, yeah, all right, you're off with it now,
go go chew on something. Yeah, thirty two hr making
a comeback was awesome. One of the mountain guns he's done.

Speaker 1 (02:24:39):
In the mountain guns we's talked about. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:24:41):
Yeah, who had it on their bingo card that we
would get a ten millimeter auto Smith and Wesson mountain
gun in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (02:24:48):
Yeah, not me, but Jason had it on his big
Go card. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:24:53):
Well, I know, I think I know of one other
project he's working on, and I'm I'm excited to hear
about progress on that. Yeah, but I just looking at
the YouTube channel and seeing the stuff that's being released, it's.

Speaker 1 (02:25:06):
Just like, oh wow, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (02:25:07):
So I like it responsible for bringing forty one Magnum back, yeah,
you know, because we kind of forgot about that one
after the Smith fifty seven.

Speaker 1 (02:25:17):
Then well, wasn't there just a re release or a
release of a five inch? What were they? Were they
hundreds and three twenty seven? Yep? Yeah, forty four in
three fifty seven?

Speaker 2 (02:25:34):
Yeah, and you know they did four specials, the Jeff
Quinn Special Editions where they did a five shot GP
one hundred blued with some really nice the smooth hoe
grips without finger grooves and at Jeff's face engraved in him.
That was an Ellipsy's gun, forty four or forty forty
one Magnum making a comeback solely Ellipsy's thirty two h

(02:25:57):
and R. Pretty good case that that was Ellipsy's because
really you had some Smiths and a couple double action
ruders and then really the single six was was the
thirty two h R gun that you was the most
common and oh what else? Ruger Safari Magnums thirty five
Whalen Ruger Safari rifles, like so much of that stuff

(02:26:20):
we'd never get to see. Lipsey's was like we can
sell thousand of those. Yeah, and they can. You better
get while they getting's good. I know a lot of
these they're just they're recurring now, like the forty four
Mad Mountain Gun is never going away again.

Speaker 1 (02:26:34):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (02:26:36):
Well, we talked a little bit about demographic. Well, primary
and secondary also has in that demographic. Are the people
that are interested in these exact products. Yeah, this is
They hear about it and go, Okay, I'm gonna I'm
either buying or I'm saving for it. I'm keeping an
eye out because there's an application for me. I want this.

Speaker 1 (02:26:55):
I enjoyed this.

Speaker 2 (02:26:56):
Yeah, well, I know Ruger's just so beat down with
the Marlin project just they can't stay caught up because
that's a hard gun to make, and I think, you know,
as a lever gun weirdo, they're making the best ones
they've they've probably ever been made. They're really good guns.

(02:27:17):
I know the guy that kind of spearheads that at
Marlin and and how much Ruger's invested in it. So
you know, I got to see, like I was sitting
there watching because you know, Bagpoo had a relationship with
Remington and they went under in the bankruptcy proceedings were
where we're ongoing, and I think the whole industry was watching,

(02:27:38):
like what's going to go where? Who's going to get what?

Speaker 1 (02:27:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:27:40):
And then you know, one day they have an auction and.

Speaker 1 (02:27:42):
That told the tale.

Speaker 2 (02:27:43):
And when I saw Marlin went to Ruger, I was like, yes,
because their ability to manufacture, you know, you go their
smallest factory, I think is Prescott is the smallest of
the three. You stand in the corner of that thing
and you can't see either end of it. I mean
it's they're like, oh, this is a little one. But

(02:28:03):
you know, you didn't get anything other than real property
and intellectual property. So whatever was in the warehouse, you know,
in a taped off area for whatever brand and whatever
IP came along with it was what you got in
the auction. Right. It's not like anybody was there to
help you figure it out. You bought a bunch, you
bought a storage unit, right, yeah, what's in it's? What's

(02:28:25):
in it? I think they said the tooling, samples, parts,
just the crap. Everything in the Marlin was eight seventeen
or eighteen trucks, and for them to get those guns
up and running in the time when they said they
were going to release them at Christmas, like, you guys

(02:28:47):
are smoking crack. There is no way because Remington, you know,
even when they were up and running with Marlin as
a brand, they were not churning out the best guns.

Speaker 1 (02:29:00):
The Remlins have the.

Speaker 2 (02:29:01):
Reputation they do for a reason, and like I've got
a forty four mag eighteen ninety four. That's great gun.
I mean, it is perfect, and it's a Remington gun.
You just you didn't know what you were going to get.
And I think as their financial woes mounted up, of
course the guns got worse. You know, in the in

(02:29:21):
the interest of revenue, they would ship things they might
not otherwise have, you know, you know, since since that
entity is out of business now, I don't think they'd
get too mad at me for saying it. But you know, collectors, users, whoever,
people that are serious about them, you the Remlins kind
of sucked and your chances of getting bad one we're

(02:29:43):
definitely there. And when they were like, hey, when are
you gonna have those ready? Like hous this is going
to go, and you know, they just get all this crap.
They got to sort through it, figure out what's what,
figure out what prints are good and which ones aren't.
But I don't think anybody other than Ruger and today
could have done that to the quality they did in

(02:30:04):
the time they did, Like that was that should be studied.
That's a powerhouse move. But then you see Ruger's capabilities
and verticality and just the skill they have over the years.
I don't think anybody else could have pulled it off.
I didn't think they were going to pull it off.
And man, they made some rad guns. I see in there,

(02:30:27):
you know, waiting for the forty five Colt trapper to
come back. I think you're going to get that traper.
I know that one's on the list, and I don't
I don't even know if that's a Lipsy's thing. I'm
pretty sure Ruger that's just they're just trying to stay
caught up. But I know forty five.

Speaker 1 (02:30:42):
Colt is coming, so that's bad news for me.

Speaker 2 (02:30:46):
I think they were saying that in the trade show
booth like n RA this year, like, oh, they're probably
gonna see it. So that's not like Inside Baseball I
think they were fairly open that that's on the road map.

Speaker 1 (02:30:55):
Yeah, that's the one I want.

Speaker 2 (02:30:57):
To that's like, give me the forty five colt.

Speaker 1 (02:31:01):
And it's insane to me how my opinion of that
is just with a little bit of knowledge, a little
bit of discussion and all of a sudden, you know what,
one of my favorite calibers right now, it might be
forty five colt.

Speaker 2 (02:31:12):
Yeah, the safety delete, that is a good call for
those of you that don't know. There's two ways to
get rid of the safety on a modern Marlin. I
don't like the safety because you think you otherwise put
the gun in a condition to fire and then the
hammer will fall and will go off, and that safety
is really easy to bump. I don't think it's in
a good spot. The originals didn't have them. You know,

(02:31:33):
you got to know your manual of arms and how
to safely how to render it safe when it's loaded.
But that said, you don't have to spend sixty bucks
on a safety delete. So to save everybody sixty dollars,
if you don't want a safety on a modern Marlin,
pull a butt stock off. There's a set screw on
the left side, right beside the grip tang on the

(02:31:56):
back of the receiver. If you crank, put it on fire.
Crank that thing all the way down till the spring
goes solid. Then the detent can't depress and the safety
can't traverse. You will lock it in the fire position
without spending sixty bucks on a safety deleat.

Speaker 1 (02:32:12):
So don't forget to tarry waitress. That's a freedom for you.

Speaker 2 (02:32:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:32:17):
Well, speaking of safety type things, yep. As a novice
single action revolver person, I understand it was common practice
to leave the chamber open that was under the hammer.

Speaker 1 (02:32:31):
Yep. Why not keep it an half cock?

Speaker 2 (02:32:35):
Well, because the uh, halfcock wasn't always a reliable feature
and if something did you know, back in the day
you're riding through the brush, you're living a lot more
dynamic life, probably like it was an actual tool that
you used, and if anything hit that hammer, it could

(02:32:56):
overcome the halfcock notch. And then we had different rare
characteristics on the guns. You know, Maintenance wasn't what it was,
metallurgy wasn't what it was, so the there was always
a chance that something could drop that hammer. You also
had the option on half cock of your cylinders, you

(02:33:18):
could slip.

Speaker 1 (02:33:19):
Pass between cylinder placement, right.

Speaker 2 (02:33:22):
Yeah, So that's where you know, if you have a
gun that doesn't have a block or some kind of
safety feature you know the rugor transverse bar and whatever
other safety features are out there, you would load load
one chamber, skip one chamber, then load the other four

(02:33:43):
and that would put the empty one under the hammer
when you dropped it from half cock. Because if you
look at an old single action army, I mean you
can see that that firing pin is resting.

Speaker 1 (02:33:53):
On the primer.

Speaker 2 (02:33:55):
You know, the hammer mounted firing pin is literally.

Speaker 1 (02:33:58):
Sitting on the primer.

Speaker 2 (02:34:00):
So that's where the load one, skip one and if
you they were about to get in some kind of fight,
that opened it up, rotated a chamber and load it
all the way up and you know, but just for
traveling condition. Yeah, you got a modern Ruger Blackhawk, you know,
even if it's a three screw, and it went back
for the safety installation, which is easy to see, you

(02:34:23):
know when you uh, this one's kind of free spin, Paul,
So I'm going the direction. So you know on a Blackhawk,
when you pull it back, you see the bar come up. Yeah,
So if you find an old three screw ruger and
you don't know if it's had the safety added.

Speaker 1 (02:34:39):
And you know they're desirable.

Speaker 2 (02:34:40):
People like them without the without that like collectors want the.

Speaker 1 (02:34:44):
Original one that hasn't had the refit.

Speaker 2 (02:34:47):
But it's super easy if you don't know what you're
walking up to and you don't know if you can
load it with six, certainly if it's a ruger. Cole
had one too that had a safety bar, the uh
Colt Cowboy. You don't run across them very often. They
were they weren't the best guns Colt ever made. But yeah,
if you walk up to are I don't know what
you're looking at, pull the hammer back and if you
see a bar come up, that's your that's your bar.

(02:35:11):
So it's safety carry with six on there.

Speaker 1 (02:35:13):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (02:35:14):
Yeah, well I better put a five year old.

Speaker 1 (02:35:17):
Actually he'll be five.

Speaker 3 (02:35:19):
And he's doing a countdown nice ten days, I think
in ten days, I bet a.

Speaker 2 (02:35:25):
Five year old to bed too.

Speaker 3 (02:35:26):
Yes, I am the fun you are five, so before
we end, oh there you go. So yeah, but thanks
for make no mistake, yes, but yeah, thanks for awesome discussion.
As for the norm, we still have topics that we
need to discuss and bring in all and.

Speaker 1 (02:35:44):
Because there's just so much move my unpack.

Speaker 2 (02:35:47):
Is not complete, but my move is, so my schedules
freed up a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (02:35:50):
Now, good deal, Good deal. Do we think reloading one?

Speaker 2 (02:35:56):
Did they do that?

Speaker 1 (02:35:57):
No, we haven't done it yet.

Speaker 2 (02:35:58):
I'm terrified to do that with Steven because like why,
because he's a wizard.

Speaker 1 (02:36:03):
It would be great, but like I don't know what
I'm doing, and I just listen to what I'm doing
now with that guy. Now that guy.

Speaker 3 (02:36:09):
See, I kind of want to get Gary Hughes for
that one because he's doing individual loads too.

Speaker 2 (02:36:14):
Yeah, and he does casting and stuff like that, and
you know, that was super common like for load development
back in the day.

Speaker 1 (02:36:21):
It's still a good way to do it. A lot
of people don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:36:23):
You can get a hand press and just dump everything
together like one round at a time with a little
handheld press exactly, you.

Speaker 1 (02:36:30):
Know, and like I don't do that.

Speaker 2 (02:36:33):
You know, you can see in the back I got
like a big Dylan in my single stage and a
turret press and that whole cabins Ammo Primer's bullets, an
Ammo bunker over there. But I love reloading and I
never you know, it was I did I shoot nine mil,
five five six and seven six two and I get
all of it. I could shoot for free. Why would

(02:36:53):
I ever reload? And then I got into the revolver thing,
and it's like I have to reload, and man, once
I start, I'm like, I should have started this a
long time ago.

Speaker 1 (02:37:02):
One. All the components were way cheaper a.

Speaker 2 (02:37:04):
Long time ago, you know, back when primers are a
penny instead of a dime. But do reloading's fun, man,
And when you get into the revolvers especially, you kind
of have to be a reloader to get the most
out of them. Like if you buy forty five cold
other than two dollars and fifty cent around Buffalo Boar

(02:37:29):
or something like that or Sammy Speck, you kind of
get those ends of the spectrum. You're going to get
twelve to fourteen thousand PSI and you're going to get
thirty five to fifty depending on which load it is.
But like, especially with forty five cold, being able to
tailor your loads, you really have to get into reloading.

(02:37:51):
Like you don't need a million dollars setup. Get an
RCBS rebel in a set of lead dies and like
you're off to the races. Reloading pistols not that complex.
Get a good cramped eye, get the factory cramped eye
if it didn't come with one in the set, and
like you can do a lot with a pistol.

Speaker 1 (02:38:08):
Yeah, for revolver loads.

Speaker 2 (02:38:10):
With with not a ton of investment. Anybody who tells
you reload and saves you money, I guarantee you I
have not saved thirty thousand dollars reloading. I guarantee you
that's what I gotten reloading stuff at this point. You
know when var gets four hundred and forty bucks for
an eight pound jug, guess who ain't save the money

(02:38:30):
on reloading. But it lets me do stuff I can't
do otherwise and enjoy it. It's like therapeutic.

Speaker 3 (02:38:37):
Well, I'm looking at your benches and I think I
have the exact same bench right over there on the
other side.

Speaker 1 (02:38:41):
Of my wall.

Speaker 3 (02:38:43):
I think it was a chat Albreck. Yeah, yeah, chaed
Albrech said, this is what I get. I looked at
my that fits my needs.

Speaker 1 (02:38:49):
I'm getting that.

Speaker 2 (02:38:50):
Yeah, funny, go pick them up at Costco.

Speaker 1 (02:38:56):
Yeah, that's exactly what it was, the same with the
advice on the same side and yeah, oh man, so
that's the best thing I get.

Speaker 2 (02:39:03):
I got the trailer hitch mount because I'm like, I
don't want advice on there, and you know, in.

Speaker 1 (02:39:09):
This way, I can take it and put it on
the trailer hitch on the truck too.

Speaker 2 (02:39:12):
That side mount for the vice favorite new workshop upgrade
because I always mounted it to the bench before, but
I was like, man, I want that footback.

Speaker 1 (02:39:21):
Of space that it takes up.

Speaker 2 (02:39:23):
And yeah, yeah, I just took the trailer hitch mount,
mounted it underneath, bolts in from the top, and then
I can pull that thing out. Like if I need
to go on a trip and work on guns while
i'm there, you know, go to the Shoots holiday next year,
I'll just throw advice in the back of my truck
and then I've got one. So yeah, highly recommend the
trailer hitch mount from some unpronounceable Chinese company on Amazon

(02:39:46):
at seventy nine bucks.

Speaker 1 (02:39:48):
Money well spent.

Speaker 2 (02:39:50):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (02:39:50):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (02:39:51):
So yeah, we do have we have still discussions to have. Yeah,
I have a list somewhere. But big thank you to
the listener of the viewer. Also big thank you to
the sponsors Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter and our Patreon subscribers.
If you don't want to go to Patreon, you can
also support on primary and secondary dot com slash forum.

(02:40:14):
There's a banner called network support. You can support over
there as well. Yeah, we have all all kinds of resources.
We have the Facebook groups, the forum.

Speaker 1 (02:40:25):
YouTube.

Speaker 3 (02:40:26):
I did look into going into what is the what's
the YouTube alternative? I can't remember what it's called. It's
that one channel I'm waiting for a chat to tell
me rumble rumble. And there's a limit that the thing. Yeah,
and there's a limit to the size of the files. Well,

(02:40:48):
when I'm doing multiple hours of podcast, it doesn't fit.

Speaker 1 (02:40:52):
So that kind of sucks.

Speaker 3 (02:40:54):
So still trying to look for an alternative, another solution
because YouTube does seem to uh demonetize remove all that
kind of stuff. No, it's uh, I have to put
that on the screen. No, it is not porn hub close.

Speaker 1 (02:41:10):
But yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (02:41:13):
Think that's pretty much it though. I'm gonna go throw
a in the bed.

Speaker 1 (02:41:18):
Good talking to you.

Speaker 3 (02:41:19):
As for the norm Yeah, man, thank you, Yeah, and
I will talk to you later, see you next time.

Speaker 2 (02:41:25):
Thanks

All Episodes

P&S ModCast 441 - ACE VR

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 441 - ACE VR