2024 NBA Draft Preview with Brad Rowland

Ben Ladner and Jon Sauber are joined by Brad Rowland of Locked On Hawks and Dime UPROXX to discuss the most interesting prospects in the 2024 NBA Draft, including the two Frenchmen at the top of the board, first-round sleepers who could make an impact, the Hawks' options with the first pick, who the Spurs should target, and much more. 

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello, and welcome to another episodeof Read and React. I'm Ben Ladner
and joining me on the other lineis John Sober and joining us on the
third line. As has become anannual tradition on this podcast. One of
our favorite episodes of the year,we're talking Draft today with Brad Rowland of
Locked on Hawks all sorts of differentmedia outlets, like I can't even list

(00:23):
all of the different ways in whichyou cover both not only the NBA,
but the MLB, the NFL,which we were talking about just before we
hit record here. Brad, howyou doing, man, I'm doing well.
I appreciate you guys having me alwaysfun to do this episode, and
I just know the passion that Benhas for college basketball, so I look
forward to hearing all the takes thatI'm sure he has had brewed for in

(00:44):
the last six months. You conBen is the one that we need to
be worried about. What the takeshere. That's one hundred percent correct.
I'm gonna let him fly today.That's the thing, though, You really
can, because you like, who'sgonna judge you for? You could just
say anything, and I was like, Oh, it's just Ben. He
doesn't He's not watching. I dohave that. I do have a couple
of people that I won't name onthis call. I would tell you offline
that don't watch college and then comeup with the hottest All they do is

(01:07):
watch like a week of NBA ofprospect film and then it's like, oh
you and and then it's like scaldingsteven A level takes from there and it's
like, okay, we respect it. Yeah, got to keep the machine
humming somehow. That's right. What'sit been like covering the Hawks right now?
Obviously they have the number one pick. There's the obvious kind of storyline
here that that for all the yearsof Hawk's mediocrity and now the one year

(01:30):
that they get the number one pick. It's in a draft that many consider
not just mediocre but actually quite badat the top, and kind of the
one draft in recent history that youdon't want to have the number one pick
in. But I'm sure you've beenup to your neck, if not higher,
in draft coverage, podcast guest appearances, requests that like, what's what's
it been like for you these lastcouple of weeks. Yeah, it's certainly

(01:52):
been busier than usual. I lovethe draft, so I always do tons
of draft stuff, but I'm gettingmore people paying attention to my Hawks stuff
right now than normal for obvious reasons. It is a bit of a weird
cycle, though, because you know, the Hawks only have one pick in
the whole draft, so I'm usedto covering like a hugely wide berth on
the podcast because I have so muchtime, you know, But it's like,

(02:12):
oh, can I really talk aboutthe about the twelfth guy on my
board a lot on a draft ona podcast about the Hawks then they having
a more overall pick, So it'sa little bit challenging from that perspective,
But yeah, it's it's a lotof spotlight and you guys will know this
and we'll keep it away from theHawks, I would imagine for the most
part. But they also have somany other decisions, Like it's not just
a pick and a vacuum. Theyhave so much uncertainty top to bottom that

(02:32):
it's like you can't divorce one fromthe other. And that makes it difficult
too, because people, I thinkpeople like nationally come to like hear about
Alex Sarr and Donov M. Klingenand Zach garsia Che and I kind of
have to talk about like all thesedecisions the Hawks have to make about their
guards and the centers and all thesethings, and it's all folding on each
other. What do you expect themto do, not only with the pick,
but like you said, the otherdecision, Like they're all kind of

(02:53):
interconnected. What domino do you expectto fall first? And what do you
expect them to do in the draft? And how will that affect the rest
of the trail. I feel likeit's always safest to project the pick to
happen before a big transaction happens,because, like, trades are hard.
I always say that, but it'strue, Like they could trade either of
the guards in the next two daysbefore the picks. We'll record this on

(03:15):
Monday or whatever it is. Itwouldn't shock me if they traded somebody else
Capella or Hunter or whatever it is. But I feel like betting against trades
happening is usually the right bet.Occasionally a trade will happen, but it's
kinda I do think that though they'regonna have to make some sort of change,
they're gonna probably make this pick,or if they trade they pick,
they'll pick a They'll pick some morehigh in this draft. I think no
matter what, and then they havethis really tight window between the draft,

(03:38):
which is very late this year,and free agency and all that stuff that's
happening. So my one take,if it even is one, is that
they're not going to just keep therest of their roster like they're gonna,
I think, finally make a transactionof some kind that is not evolving just
this draft pick. But even mythought that they were gonna probably break up
break up the guards, I thinkthat's probable or maybe middling, like they

(03:59):
could run it back with the guysagain. I wouldn't love that to keep
them together. But I have ahard time ever, tell I hear something,
it immediately gets negative by what Ihear hear from somebody else. So
it's kind of a mess. Andmaybe on purpose. I mean, if
you want to give the Hawks credit, which I don't always do, maybe
they're trying to make it as uncertainas possible for everybody off the set.
That would actually be smart. Idon't know if that's gonna actually what's happening,

(04:19):
but there you go. See,Yeah, this is this is where
this is their element. It's messy. Nobody knows, you know what I
mean, what they're what they're goingto do. This is Peahawks. I
like, I would dump both guardsand not dumb obviously, but like I
would move both guards. And Ithink I think just for John No,

(04:46):
I do. I do think thatif the Hawks did not owe three years
of draft picks to the Spurs,you would hear a lot more people pitching
the blow the whole thing up ideaand it would be more credible, I
think because but the because of that, the only way to really do the
full rebuild is to trade with SanAntonio. And that I understand. That's
like a scenario that Hawks fans alwayswant to talk about and I get it,

(05:08):
but like, do we know theSpurs want those guys? Yeah?
What what? What is the reasonthe Spurs would would want to do that?
Plus, like I'm sure you've seenand Jonathan Gravoni has has been at
the forefront of this talking about likemoving uh, you know, for the
Spurs moving for in the unprotected firstnext year from the Hawks to move up
to one. Why would the Spursever consider doing that in a draft?

(05:29):
You know what I mean? Like, there's it's not like there's a guy
that I look at and like,yeah, this is the Spurs the guy
that Spurs need to get that Idon't think will be there at four,
or that they couldn't just bump upone spot with Houston to get it thirty.
So like I I think that's ludicrous. No, I tend to agree.
Like that's a popular topic because ofthe Spurs and everything else, and
because it's hard to figure out whatit would what it should cost, what
it would cost, and what Imight One of my party lines about this

(05:50):
class, which Ben alluded to already, is that the gaps start very big.
So like traditional prices that you wouldget from the number one overall pick
are not going to be there foryou. I mean almost throw out last
year because Wemby's an alien. Buteven in a normal class, Yeah,
maybe four and eight might might notbe enough to get you to one.
In some classes this year, fourand eight is not going to be offered

(06:11):
from the Spurs. It feels likeway too much, right, it feels
like way too much. Same thingwith four and one of those picks back.
Maybe they give you to swap back. Maybe that's one of the ways
to do it, because that's that'sworth less than an actual pick. Because
there is some whibber room there.But yeah, I don't think that there
isn't one of those Godfather offers comingfor number one overall, I don't think
and I've been saying this the wholetime. If the Hawks trade down,
a lot of people are going tobe like, wait, that's that's all

(06:33):
they got, And my answer isgoing to be, yeah, that's the
It's not a mystery that this classis like this, Like, even if
someone falls in love with a guy, it's going to be within reason.
I can't see the Wizards or theRockets or the Spurs just going absolutely nuts
with a package because everyone knows thedeal here. Well, I think we
all know who the Wizards are goingto end up with already at this point,
with Alex Sar, which is someonemaybe we can lead off there.

(06:55):
I will I will say on thattopic, I think there is a chance
Hawks just take him. That wouldbe funny. There's force to trade up,
yeah, or just to take himto take him like, that's I
can't figure out. I'll be candidwith you, guys, I can't figure
out whether that's just posturing or not. But there's been a little bit of
a way behind the scenes that likethe Hawks are like, we might just
take that guy, like even withoutthe workout all that stuff. And look,

(07:17):
if that was me, if Ihad so number one on my board,
if I had him number one,and I do by the way,
I don't, it won't be projectbut I don't. But if it was,
if it was clear, which it'snot for me, he's number one
for me, but not by alot. But if I if I'm the
Hawks that I have alexar as likethe guy, I'm not gonna be scared
off taking him because he won't workout for me. I'm taking him like
there's no way I'm not gonna takehim if unless I trade down, Like

(07:40):
I'm not gonna pick the guy that'sat a different tier below because that guy
does wan to work out for me. That's not something I'm doing first.
Yeah, especially with the new medicalreports and everything like, things get distributed
to teams if you're in certain ranges, like they have no reason not to
take him. That being said,I have him in my top tier of
four, but I just don't thinkI'm assuming you feel the same way.
There's no one that's separated themselves inthis class and it's a very like I

(08:01):
came into this like doing these evaluationsafter watching too much college basketball during year
and everything, thinking like, yeah, it's a week class, but like
there's gonna be someone that I fallin love with. And there are four
guys, and like I could seebeing all stars down the line. But
none of these top four that Ihave would go in the top four last
year, but they would all gofifth like I had, you know what

(08:22):
I mean, I had that lineof demarcation last year right where the Jalen
pusch Fino tier started. Whoop tobe fair caseon Wallace right after that,
but right where that tier started.All four of these guys would slot in
right above that tier of guys rightat five last year. So let me
ask you all this and this maybea good way to get us into the
actual draft order in the prospects,I'll try and marry kind of the two

(08:43):
Hawks Spurs rumored connections or potential connectionsthat have been bannied about before the draft
was even decided. Before that wasall set in stone and the Hawks had
the number one pick, a lotof noise about Trey Young potentially winding up
in San Antonio, the Spurs wantingto be aggressive Victor wiman Yama, get
him someone who could pass him theball and run the offense. The Hawks

(09:05):
kind of recognizing the opportunity to rebuild, potentially trying to get some things back
from San Antonio. Now we're sortof talking about the situation where the Spurs
might feel incentivized to trade up toAtlanta, who, of course has the
number one pick. Is there asituation here, either via two separate trades
or just lumping it all in together, where San Antonio ends up with Trey
Young and the number one pick andthe Hawks maybe get their draft back looking

(09:28):
out into the future and a coupleof you know, I don't want whatever
they consider Devin Vassel, whatever theyconsider a juicy return from San Antonio.
Is there a situation where these twothings kind of work in connection with one
another. I think there could be, But I will say this, and
look, I might be wrong,and the intel might be wrong. I
have not heard any Spurs Trey Youngbuzz at all, which doesn't mean that

(09:50):
they don't want him. But likeI have, it's not been it's been
communicated to me that like that,that's not what the Spurs are trying to
do. They're not like dreaming ofa Trey Young Wemby pairing. I think
that's actually quite appealing for me too. Yeah, I think for all of
Trey's faults, I think generally speaking, I don't know how John's gonna feel
about this. I think Trey isnow pretty actively underrated. It surprises me,

(10:11):
which because I never would have thoughtthat would have been the case.
But I think people have gone toofar in the other direction on Trey Young
in recent days. But I feellike we say this every other year,
but especially right now, oscillate,don't worry he'll be overrated and maybe yeah,
may it may be and that,but it's just this and we'll stay
away from Trey Young stuff. Butit's it's weird, like the the the
league. We'll say, the leaguewide perception of Trey Young is like in

(10:33):
the toilet right now. And I'mnot exactly sure why. Like, I
think he played the way he usuallyplays. He played very well this year.
In fact, his defense has gottenbetter anyway. Uh So that only
reason why I'm saying probably not onthat other one, just it takes a
lot of machinicians to get that tradedone, is that I haven't heard any
Tree Young Spurs buzz. In fact, I probably heard more Johnte back to
San Antonio buzz than Trey Young buzz, and even then minimal. I'm not

(10:54):
saying that's gonna happen either, butI think and also just wasn't that trading
to look like? If you're theI don't think you can sell to your
fans, which isn't a huge partof this, but it looks like it
matters. I can't. I don'tthink you can sell to your fans.
We're trading Tree Young and the numberone overall pick right, and most of
the return is our own picks back. Yeah, just our stuff back.
Talk about a riot. People inAtlanta would lose their absolute mind if they

(11:16):
did that trade. Yeah, itwould be funny though, which we could
undo this bad decision we made getrid of in a decade exactly, you
trade your your guy and look,trades approval rating is lower than it used
to be in Atlanta too, Butstill that's not a thing you can sell.
Look, maybe the Spurs will surpriseme. I still think that going
them, going to one would wouldbe less likely. People seem to think

(11:39):
it might be. I think we'regoing to see what we always see where
all of this. I mean,it's natural, right, It's the new
cycle of the draft is coming up. There's all this buzz about, Oh,
you know, is Washington gonna haveto move up to number one to
get sar Is san Antonio can moveup from four to one. Who's gonna
move up for clinging? Odds aremost of these teams are going to stay
in place. The Kings are probablygonna trade thirteen and that'll be it for

(12:01):
the lottery, right, Like,that'll be what this ends up looking like
at the end of the day.It's honestly the most likely scenario every year
is that you don't have these hugetrades. Somebody asked me the other day
on a podcast, like over underone and a half trades in the top
ten, and I was like firmlyunder, Like, doesn't mean I'm I
might lose that bet, but ifthose are my true choices, yeah,
yeah, I mean there's likelihood isthat that nothing happens. I do think

(12:24):
to bring it away from the Hawks. Number three overall is the spot I
think there could be a trade becauseI think Houston's kind of in this pivot
zone where I think they like readShepherd, I think if they stay at
three, they're gonna draft Reach Shepherdif I had to guess right now.
But if they that's a very logicaltrade spot for them to trade out,
then to trade down. You gotMemphis trying to trade up reportedly to get
maybe Clinging all kinds of stuff.That's the one spot of that I think

(12:46):
is other than the Kings. Iagree with John, but the Kings are
not exactly a super likely team todraft in their spot. But in the
top five, I think that's theone. This number three. So John,
you mentioned you had a tier offour at the top. Brad,
I don't know what your your boardlooks like. But John, we can
start with you like this, becausehe's a sane, normal human being.
We can start with you, John, and then move to Brad. What
do you think the Hawks should doat number one? What do you think

(13:07):
they will do at number one?And how does that align with the your
evaluations of these prospects. Yeah,So, like I said, I would
move both Young and Murray, andI understand why that will likely not be
the case. But I think onsome level where there is like that you
lost the picks already, right,Like, don't let that prevent yourself from
putting your team in a better positionmoving forward. Even if you don't have
your own pick next year, youknow, if you can trade with the

(13:30):
Spurs and do it great and getthose picks back. But even even without
that, I would just move forward. And part of that is because I
would take Read Shepherd number one.He's my number one overall player. I
think he's going to be really goodon both ends of the court. And
again the caveat I always must getwith the comparisons. Part of it is
fun, but part of it isjust to give people an idea of like
how he plays, not necessarily thathe's going to reach this level. I

(13:52):
had to him as manual quickly withelite feel on offense and like an SGA
type with less length on defense.Right, Like, he's not everything you
want him to be on the balldefensively, but he is really, weirdly,
really really good defensively. Like Icame away more and more impressed.
Right, you see the rate numbers, he's excellent. His steel and block
rate are ridiculous for his measurables andfor his I think perceived lack of athleticism,

(14:15):
But he's a really good defender.He's going to get beat up a
little bit on ball at times,but I think he's going to be really
effective off the ball offensively. Heis as dynamic as it gets. Like
this dude is going to shoot,you know, forty seven percent one year.
I feel pretty confident saying that,like he is just going to go
off at times, especially we getto play off the ball more. He
shot fifty two percent from three atKentucky last year. This won't surprise you.
Kentucky misused him as they have withevery guard under John Calipari. Can't

(14:39):
wait for that to happen at Arkansasfor the next decade now. It's going
to be very exciting. But Ithink Sheppard has really good feel for the
game, really good feeling in thepick and roll, gets to the mid
range really easily, and gets hisshot off quickly, which makes me a
little bit less concerned about maybe thelack of length. The lack of length
obviously helps with the shooting, aswe know with guys like Desmond Baine.
But I think he's going to bea dynamic creator on the ball. I

(15:01):
think he's a chance to make afew All Star Games. I'm not saying
like he's Steph Curry or anything likethat. But I think a few All
Star Games is probably the ceiling forsomeone in this draft, reasonable ceiling that
we can expect someone will break outand be like a Hall of Famer,
of course because it always happens,but like, I think that's a reasonable
expectation for Shephard to make a fewAll Star Games, and games would be

(15:22):
the on ball creator of a reallygood offense. And frankly, the fact
that he can play off the ballmeans everything. I think to a team
like Atlanta, like, you don'tnecessarily have to put him on the ball.
You can keep Dejonte m Murray ifyou want to and let him play
with him. It doesn't work aswell with Trey Young, I don't think,
but I would think this would workreally well with Murray. Yeah,
one of the reasons I like readersas well. I don't have number one,

(15:43):
but I think that's a totally reasonabletake, which I'm sure someone disagree
with, but I think that's avery reasonable thing. Don't worry, Brad,
we'll get there on the hot ones. He didn't start all year,
and like, this is a guycrazy has these incredible translation numbers, I'll
speak Ben's language now for a secondestionsare incredible. I mean, his shoe
numbers are bonkers, the steel rightfor a guard for anybody, the block

(16:06):
rate for a guy his size,it's all crazy stuff. I feel like
if he had been a five star, top ten overall recruit, he might
be a consensus top two repick inthis class versus not being consensus but kind
of being up there for some people. There's stuff to worry about. For
sure. He is small. Ifyou don't think he's a point guard,
he is quite small, and that'sthat's that's a question. I do think

(16:26):
that he could play with some likesize guards maybe. I think him and
Tree Young is kind of an iskind of a no go, which is
maybe one of the reasons why I'mnot talking about him a lot more at
the Hawks. But yeah, Ilike Read quite a bit. I think
personally his best role in the NBAmight be next to like a big initiator,
Like I don't think he's gonna getthis far, but I love him
In Detroit. I think him andk would be great. Detroit needs the

(16:48):
shooting, that kind of thing whereif you can, if you have a
it doesn't necessarily have to be anumber one option. But if you have
a number one B option, who'sa wing size player with reach uppard as
you're kind of a point guard,but not like all the time every down
point guard, that would actually workfor me a lot. And I really
am a buyer on Read despite thefact that you know, he was not
necessarily seen as this until pretty recently. So I think Houston's so interesting for

(17:12):
him because they do have so muchcreation. Thing is, yeah, him
and on Men and even Alprin Shengun, depending on your level of belief in
his defense long term, like youknow, having those other guys that can
create would I think be really helpfulfor him. But it's just Fred van
Vliet's there, and I know that'swhere it looks like they're leaning is taking
Shepherd. I just it feels likethere's too many cooks in the kitchen right

(17:33):
now with Houston. They kind ofneed to clear the decks a little bit.
No matter who they picked, bythe way, it's gonna have that
I'm gonna have that opinion of whateverHouston. If Houston stays there and pick
somebody, it's gonna be like,don't they have that guy I'm like,
well, they have players everywhere.That's it's a good problem to have,
but they probably have to, toyour point, make a consolidation of some
kind. Do y'all worry about thejump shot or maybe not worried. Just
tell me how you feel like thejump shot will translate. John, you

(17:53):
mentioned the percentage as well as itpossibly can, so you feel like the
release is there despite the size,He's gonna be able to get that shot
off. He is among the eliteof the elite of guys that have evaluated
coming out of college, like heis going to light it up from deep.
Like I said, you know,the forty seven percent thing may have
sounded like hyperbole. I legitimately thinkhe could do that at some point in
the NBA. Like he is anelite, elite, elite shooter, uh,

(18:15):
you know, mid range deep likehe can he can take a few
steps beyond the arc two. It'sit's as good as it gets. Brad,
Do you agree with that? Ido? And you know, I
I heard somebody who I trust sayhe's the best shooter oft at guards since
Steph in the in the class comingout of the coming up in the draft.
That means to becomes Steph in theNBA. Yeah, but as a

(18:37):
best shooting prospect since Steph. Yeah, especially of that size, and it's
I think it's not it's not acrazy thing, like the sable size isn't
huge. But the mechanics are great. It's very pure, Like you just
watch him shoot. This is veryunlike me. But if you just watch
the mechanics, like it's like that'sgoing to go in, I feel like
it's gonna always go in. Gettingit off maybe not as easy as was
in college, but he's got range. He's a pretty good athlete. Like

(18:59):
he can he can jump. He'snot he's not this like groundbound guy.
You might think of this like youknow from Kentucky white guy. That's not
what he is. He's a sneakyathlete. I tried not to say that
out loud. By the way,his dad was an NBA player, But
his dad was a really good athlete, and he played for the Hawks for
a while. And I think peoplesimilar back in the late nineties, like
his dad got probably got the sneakyathletic, but he actually was a good

(19:22):
athlete, like Reachepard. He's agood athlete. He's not an elite athlete.
But he's a good athlete and that'sall he kind of needs to be.
So it's John you would take himone? Bro, who would you
take one? If you're the Hawks? I think if you made me take
someone without trading it, I wouldprobably take Alex Sar. I don't have
I'm not committed to that. It'sin the same tier with everybody else.

(19:45):
I think he is my I thinkhe's the best prospect. I think there
are some fit questions in Atlanta,which at number one you don't have to
think about fit a ton, butmaybe you kind of do with what the
Hawks you're trying to do, andespecially in this class. I circle back
to that, the question is ishe a center or an because if he's
a center, it works a loteasier, right I think right now he
does not play like someone who enjoysbig man things. He's not a grinding

(20:08):
rebounder. He's not a great screensetter. I think if you watch him
play, he feels like he's aperimeter guy on offense, which it might
can work. I'm not saying itcan't work. He is talented, he's
got great size, but the andthat's one of the reasons by the way
it's been reported, and I've heardthe same thing that he would kind of
not prefer to be in Atlanta asthat. I think he thinks of himself
as a perimeter player. He thinksI think as a four if nothing else.

(20:30):
And the Hawks have a very entrenchedpower forward. In fact, the
guy that they're committed to the moston the roster is a power forward.
So that's one of the things.But I do him as a center primarily,
but more of like an Evan Mobleytype, like a hybrid, big
kind of thing. That's my comparison. If you have to do an NBA
want, I always love those.But I think he and Mobile have a
lot of overlap. Mobile was abetter prospect coming out of college in my
opinion, than Sarre is. Butthat's kind of the most similar, most

(20:53):
similar archetype to what sar maybe couldbe in a year or two is where
Evan Mobley is now. And that'sa good player. It's not a number
one overall pick in every draft player, but it's a very good player.
Yeah. I had him as eightyfive percent out of BAM out of bio,
but stretched out right like it's andthat fifteen percent is like the rebounding,
All of the rebounding is gone fromBam. But yeah, I think

(21:15):
he's he's got to be a fivein the NBA. I think he's the
defensive versatility is really valuable, butit's much less valuable with the four right,
Like he is, he's incredibly mobile. He can switch probably two through
five, maybe one through five,depending on who the league guard is that
he's guarding offensively, Like I justI really think he's got a bunch of

(21:36):
bad habits, like in the sameway that Bam loves those like eighteen footers,
right, like, he really wantsto get to those shots. He
wants to I don't I don't buythe shot from deep either, Like I
would much rather see him become apure rim runner. But as you said,
it doesn't seem like he wants todo that, and that's going to
be a problem. But yeah,I like Sarr. He's he's my third
guy on my board. He's inthat same tier as a Rey Shepherd.
This, I think this says alot about this class that Like, to

(21:57):
me, the upside is eighty fivepercent of Bam out bio right, Like
this is again potentially could make fewAll star teams if everything breaks right.
But I just, uh, there'sa major lack of upside offensively that makes
me wonder. I think he's safebecause the defense, but if he's not
willing to buy into that, thefloor drops right because you have to be

(22:17):
willing to do it. And Ithink part of the appeal of him going
to the Wizards potentially is they'll lethim fail, right, like, let
him fail miserably working on the outsidefor a year, and then second year
he comes back and he plays thefive. And that's fine because they're in
a position to do that. Butyeah, I think if the if the
buy in isn't there, it almostdoesn't matter at all that he can do
this successfully. Is five to befair, there is a long lineage of

(22:38):
these guys who will tell you theydon't want to play center. Yes,
Anthony Davis is a great example ofthis, right where ever a long time
exactly but a d like everyone's knownfor a long time that he was a
center. He finally kind of justwas like, you know, for even
the Lakers were starting us there nextto him, just to a piece of
Yeah, it was like that wayexactly. I mean, I mean Kevin
Garnett in the if he played now, he would be a center full time.

(23:00):
He just would be. But hedidn't really play a lot of center
because he didn't want to. Andby the way, he was seven feet
tall, and then when we listenedseven feet tall. There's a long lineage
of this. And by the way, he's alexamer is not Kevin Garnett nor
Isy Anthony Davis. But it's notthat out of the ordinary to see a
guy that kind of wants to domore than he's probably capable of doing offensively.
I just think that if you're draftinghim, especially as Atlanta or but

(23:22):
even for a lot of teams,if you don't think he's at least going
to buy in on some level toplaying center, you can't take him number
one. I don't think. Ithink at he could be a good player
at the four. He could be, but like it's like Mobile, not
to go back to that comparison,but Mobile on offense at the four is
like a thoroughly uninspiring player. Hejust is on offense defense is a great
defender at the four, but likethere's less impact there is versus when you're

(23:44):
playing the five next to a bigand I think early in his career,
Like Okay, as a rookie inAtlanta, alex Aar probably can't anchor a
team that's trying to win playing centeras a rookie. But that should mean
while you're drafting alex Aar, you'redrafting him for two or three years from
No, you're not drafting him asa rookie. And yeah, I think
it's it's it's a kind of anenigma kind of player, especially when you've
again heard that he doesn't want tobe in Atlanta. I think it's a

(24:06):
lot of it's what somes positional.Some of it's what John said. I
think he thinks of himself as likesomeone who needs to have immediate playing time
and play a lot and fail alot, and that might be good for
his development, but I don't knowwhat that's going to mean for him,
like what he actually becomes. Soit sounds like he may not be a
guy that the Spurs, for instance, are trade are interested in trading up
for Oh, that would be funif he kind of need But if like

(24:30):
I haven't, I haven't thought aboutthis. I have, I have dreamed
about it. There's a team that'strying to win in the more immediate term
if it sounds like he may notbe as good a fit on that kind
of team. For instance, afew years ago, they would crush teams
defensively with him at the perimeter.I think this is I've I've I've thought
about this a few time because ofthe trade stuff, right, and I

(24:52):
think that at first blush, youmight think they have Weby already, but
wenbs so many perimeter skills offensively andhas much ground coverage that like I do
think Sara Wemby would would work andwould be potentially terrifying. And they're not
as so much win now Moode like, for instance, you've never don't I've
never heard Houston tied to Alex Sardanyway, And part of that is that

(25:12):
Houston's trying to win now. Theyalready have Jabar Smith, they have sim
Dooon, like why would they dothat? Hawks is similar not quite as
model, but the Hawks look havehave three guys who are NBA starting caliber
players in the front court right nowwith Johnson and the Kong Wu a capella.
If you're sar it's Washington is theblank slate. San Antonio is not
in blank slate, but man,that would be appealing, especially if you

(25:33):
view yourself as a non center.You can be like, oh, wo,
mean's the center. I'm the powerforward, even if star's playing some
center, even steekly. So John, who else is in that top tier
for you? I think we've gottento two out of the four guys.
Are you tell us if you're goingwith convention or if you're kind of going
off the wall as you typically do, and then and then give us the
two names. I don't think I'mgoing as far off the wall as you
would usually anticipate. Because both ofthese guys were five star recruits. I

(25:56):
just still very much believe in themand think that they were in really bad
situations. One's Isaiah Collier at numbertwo overall, and the other is Cody
Williams at number four overall. Twoguys that I really really like, call
you, like honestly, like Ireally had to talk about I had him
at one. I just had totalk myself off the ledge a little bit,
just like you can't do this,Like he can't do this every time.
It can be the case every year, but I had him as a

(26:18):
James harden Light type player. Ithink he's gonna be better off the ball
than Harden ever has been, becauseit would be hard not to be,
but he is. He's a quintessentialdrive and kick lead guard who is really
physical, really fast, excels andtransition. I believe in the shot,
like I know that it looks maybenot rigid, but like his knees are
a little bit stiff on it,and he's turned a little bit more than

(26:40):
he would like toward his left.Again, not a shot doctor by any
means, but can look a littlebit unconventional. But I have faith that
he's going to be able to getto the rim enough that you know that
the shooting can be thirty six percent, doesn't have to be thirty nine percent.
I think the form is there tobe a good stand still shooter.
Defensively, he's he's strong, he'sa good athlete. And the buying was

(27:02):
horrendous for the first half the season, but like USC was a train wreck,
and then you look the last five, six, seven, eight games,
Like you start to watch those games, he was trying again, and
it was it was clear that somethinghad happened, maybe someone got his ear,
like hey, you got to defendto play at the next level.
Whatever, Like a switch flipped andhe started to play much better defensively.
I think he's gonna be able toguard one through three because he's strong enough.

(27:25):
He's about six four too, heis, he's good size. But
yeah, I love Isaiah Collier.I think you know you're gonna want to
put the ball in his hands.And I think, honestly, of these
guys, he might have the highestupside, which is why I thought about
putting at number one. It's justI don't know how likely he is to
reach that. But if there wasa guy that's going to end up being
the you know, Hall of Famerpotential, like top seven MVP candidate,

(27:45):
top five MVP candidate, I wouldpick Collier to be that in this class.
In typical fashion, I agree withJohn and I have not gone as
far as John does. That makesright. It's like I think that Isaiah
color has fallen too far in theprojections, like I've seen him going in
the twenties, Like that's crazy.I don't. I am praying for six,
don't. I don't. Legitimately,Look, it was a if all

(28:08):
you knew about Isaiah Callier was whathappened in college, and you had no
context and you just watched USC youprobably love run him right because it's it
was a weird situation used. Idon't remember which word to use, but
I agree with it. Whatever.It was a disaster. Usc did not
go well last year at all,similar to like Ji League Knight also being
a disaster for guys like Ron Holland, which him I'm sure at some point.
But yeah, I I like Callier. I think he has actual like

(28:32):
not super duperstar, but like starupside. I think he's one of the
rare guys in this class. Ifhe were to hit, and there's a
big if, big if if you'rean upside drafter, though, I totally
get it. Because he's got thebody. He can get to the rim.
That's the big thing with Isaiah calledbut I like is that you can't
stand in front of him. Ifhe wants to get to the rim,
is gonna get there, which isgood. I like that about him.
Everything else more more of a mixedbag. But he's got the physicality.

(28:53):
He's a big guard, stocky,athletic, really polished. I think on
the probably underrated in terms of likehow polished he is. It's just whether
the whole thing works. But ifit does, I see like top twenty
player upside with him, which isvery very rare in this class. There
are not a lot of guys thathave that kind of upset. If he
doesn't end up a sixer, whichof course, for me is the dream

(29:14):
scenario, like him going number eightto the Spurs would be perfect. Like
I think he would be incredible withWebby, I would definitely consider him,
and I don't know if they will, but at eight, if they don't
take a guy that's a guard atfour, if they keep their picks,
that's a swing that I think theycan afford to make. They have the
Hawks, they have the Hawks,capital they have these extra picks, and
if it worked again big if I'mnot saying it might be a twenty five

(29:34):
percent chance of happening as far aslike his actual ceiling, but if he
actually hits it, then it'll looklike a like a heist and you could
kind of to discussion earlier, hecould kind of fail a little bit.
In San Antonio, there's not asmuch pressure on him right away, and
at eight, I have a hardtime finding too much more upside in this
class. Well, and before Ipivot over to Cody Williams, I'm terrified
that they're going to take Rob Dellingham. I just I'm out on Dillingham.

(29:56):
He's a guy that's gotten a lotof hype. He's and again reasonable to
have him high, because it isperfectly reasonable to be like, oh,
John Calipari did it again to anotherguard and now suddenly he doesn't look as
good as he did coming into college. But I think Dillingham's way too undersized.
To me, is like bones Highlandwith feel, and that's not great.
But yeah, to go back toCody Williams being one number four,

(30:18):
just around that out real quick.I think he is the kind of ultimate
role player, right Like I comparedhim to Brandon Ingram with better defense,
and I have I've said this fora little bit now. I think brandon
Ingram would excel a lot more ina situation that didn't require him to be
what New Orleans requires him to be. That being said, Williams does struggle
with the handle more, There's nodoubt about that. But Brandon Ingram didn't

(30:41):
always have the tightest handle either comingout of college. Like, I think
that was a sticking point for alot of people. People were more hung
up on the jump shot with CodyWilliams than I am. I know the
volume was really low. I'm noteven worried the percentage was good, but
that's not part of this. Ithink the stroke is fine. Like I
think he shoot, He's going toshoot really well. Maybe not on you
know, seven eight threes game,but I think four or five is perfectly
reasonable. He's a switchable defender whois really good at getting over screens for

(31:04):
being a bigger guy. I thinkhe's going to be a high level defender.
I would like to see a littlebit more rim protection, not even
necessarily like as obviously a primary rimprotector, but just like weekside help he
gets to that spot, but hedoesn't. It feels like he's not always
confident enough to rise up and tryand actually impact shots defensively in those situations,
but offensively. I do think youprobably want him off the ball a

(31:26):
little more. I think there's alittle bit decreation there. I think he
has a good feel for the game. I think he's gonna be able to
pass the ball out of the shortrole. Like to me, that's the
ideal scenario. You do some moreyou know, guard wing screens and he's
setting the pick and he's rolling,and he can make a quick decision either
finish at the rim where he isawesome, or he can make a quick
decision to kick it out and finda teammate. But yeah, again,

(31:47):
another guy that I think could bea few time All Star. Probably not
in the same line of thinking thatmost guys are right, like he's not
gonna be ball dominant or anything likethat, which I know makes that Brandon
Ingle comparison a little bit weird,But like it is, he was the
toughest guy that I've found to tryand find anyone else in the league that
I looked at and felt comfortable saying, yeah, this is him, because
it's like, what are you gonnasay, Michel Bridges, Like that's not

(32:07):
it doesn't He's not that level ofdefender. It just doesn't, you know
what I mean. Translate in thesame way I have Callier as a firm
lottery pick somewhere in like the lateyou know, midlate lottery, I would
say I'm a little lower on Williams, although I do see it. I
think John's pitches the right one forhim. I wonder, and this is
truth is reductive, I promise Iunderstand that I wonder if he would be

(32:29):
seen this way if his brother wasn'tJayalen Williams. He was a five star
recruiting yet. But even that Iknow too, And early in the year
I saw it more with Coddy Williams. I think later in the year he
had some injury issues, like therewas an ankle thing. He wasn't the
same player. It didn't seem likebut I will attribute a little bit of
that to the ankle. And alsohow did they like they should have just

(32:51):
been better like that Codo team,Not like, yeah, they won twenty
six games, but like what isgoing on that they went in as a
playing team as a ten seed,Like they had Tristan DeSilva, who is
going to be an awesome role playerI think in the NBA, kJ Simpson,
who's a quintessential lead guard in collegebasketball, and Cody Williams, who
was like a you know, jackof all trades wing who is good right

(33:13):
now and getting better. Like,how were they that bad? And part
of that I think you just attributeto coaching and you move on. Yeah,
and I don't think Wayams was asgood of a college basketball player as
he projects as a guy that's classicallymore of an NBA player in college player,
and that's fair to say. Ithink it's if you watched him,
especially in the tournament like late inthe year, he really didn't. He
kind of was as visible like ifyou didn't know who the prospect was.
Sometimes you wouldn't know who the prospectwas. But I do buy you saw

(33:35):
the flashes. The athletic skills arethere. And I'm a lower on him
than John Is, but I definitelyhave him as He's a lot of retalent
in this class, no question aboutit. That feels like that could be
the title of these these episodes everyyear other than John John Is, but
I still like him. I dolike the framing of of like general agreement
but not quite as passionate or notquite as invested that does in a show.

(33:57):
Baby. But you know what thatdoes is when when John gives this
flowing, you know, effusive praiseof Reed Shepherd, and Brad comes in
and says, yeah, I agree. I think that kind of tells you
something like, Okay, this guy, this guy is pretty. When Brad
is willing to go as far asJohn is on someone, that kind of
tells me something. I dig it. So John, You've got kind of
a group of four at the topBrad, what was your dividing line in

(34:20):
the top ten or did you haveone? Do you feel like it's it's
one and then the rest it's fourand then a group like where are the
lines for you? First of all, I would say the lines are very
blurry in this class. I actuallyhave a hard time with tier breaks in
this in this class because I feellike this is a little bit of an
overstatement. I feel like you couldalmost go to like one to X number
and be like, these guys arekind of in the same tier. I

(34:40):
think that I still have like atop four or five six. It's kind
of fluid in that range. Andthen the next tier is the one that
I've chosen to be the huge onewhere I have like ten guys and there's
kind of half tier breaks who whowere not talked about. Oh, I
like Ron Holland quite a bit.I am high on Ron Holland, acknowledging

(35:04):
that the floor outcome is kind ofrough. So I had him at in
this top tier at first, andthis there was I did some self accounting
and said, John, you alwaysfall for this. He's a great athlete.
He plays hard, but he can'tshoot, but you think you want
him to shoot, Like do youthink he can shoot? Or do you
want him to shoot? Like Iwas like, this is my whole thing

(35:27):
was he's down at He's down atten on my board. But like again,
if there's another guy that like leapsup into another stratosphere, I think
it's it's Ron Holland I would likeif I were in the top five,
I'd be comfortable taking him because Ido think he has that level website and
I would be taking those upside swingsif my team were that bad to be
up there. He's a really difficultevaluation because what you said is right.

(35:49):
The shooting is the big swing.As far as his like actual upsize concern,
it's a hard It's hard for meto see him reaching a star up
outcome of it if the shooting doesnot improve breathe significantly. But it was
an impossible evaluation context Ignite was sucha disaster. Anybody that's watched them would
know that the team was poorly built. They didn't have good veterans. You're

(36:09):
playing against professionals, the Jigue isnot a bad league, and you're playing
it was not a team. Look, they got killed every night. It's
not even they were just getting killedevery night. But he was so like
he was going all out throughout right. And that's that's one thing I love
about him is that he plays.His motorists legendary. His his makeup stuff
is intel, stuff is all reallygood. He plays hard. I think

(36:31):
that he can get to the rim. He's a good athlete. I think
that the defense is going to workat the NBA level. It just comes.
So I think there is an outcome. I've seen him and I get
why. I've seen him frame missIt's like a super low floor player because
of the shooting. I think hecould he could be transitioned to becoming like
a really high level role player ifit became clear the shooting didn't work that
well. Like, I think hecould be kind of this like trying to

(36:52):
kick a comparison but Ben Simmy hopefully, but when I compared too, if
this helps it all is a moreathletic Dylan Brooks with a way higher basketball
IQ like like, which is agood player. That's a very good player,
by the way, a very verygood player. He just like.
But the problem is, like DylanBrooks also can't shoot, and so once

(37:13):
you take that away, well hedid this year, but like in previous
years, Dylan Brooks couldn't shoot.So if you take that away, how
good is that player? Because werailed on Dylan Brooks four years about how
he was like barely a rotation playerbecause he couldn't shoot and would shoot a
bunch. So now if you justdon't shoot a bunch and you can't shoot,
does it change it? I don'tknow, maybe a little. He
also carried huge you should huge usage, it's hard to say that, and

(37:35):
ended up putting up like a lotof pretty good counting stats, Like I
think he averaged nineteen and a halfpoints a game in the G League as
a nineteen year old or whatever itwas, and great it was. He's
still eighteen, Yeah, so he'sreally young. It was he was asked
to do too much. But thefact that he was able to do that
and like not get himself killed likewas kind of impressive to me. It's
sort of an interesting thread. It'skind of a narrow one to kind of

(37:57):
go down. But he wasn't good, he wasn't a fit, but the
fact that he was capable of doingthat at that level at that age was
intriguing to me, given especially thatteams knew he couldn't shoot. If you
watch him being guarded, he's gettingsagged off on. He was still able
to get to his spots a lot, which I was impressed by. He
seems like maybe one of these guysI wonder if this is why Cam Whitmore
fell so far in the draft whenhe did that, you take him,

(38:22):
like the place to take him inthe draft is high because you're a bad
team and you want to give himthe lead way to develop. And if
you're a better team, then he'snot really a lot of use to you
because he's not going to help youin the playoffs or anything. And so
it's kind of if he doesn't riseabove this this threshold of like being good
enough for the top eight teams inthe draft or whatever to take your chance

(38:43):
on him, then he falls alot because the next batch of teams kind
of doesn't have a use for him. Does he kind of fit into that
bucket or is he a guy thatif he falls, let's say to like
fifteen, it seems like his rangeis pretty big. If he falls to
like late lottery or even mid firstround, is he someone that could help
a good team right away or doeshe need that studio space to explore.
I think he could help a goodteam right away in a very specific role.

(39:06):
I don't know if he can helpa good team in the playoffs for
more than like three minutes. Okay, Like if you go really small and
like play him as like the offenseof five essentially, you know, maybe
he sets more screens and he's playingmaking out of the short rule a little
bit, like, then that's fine, But I don't I don't want to
put him on the ball if I'min the playoffs or anything like that.
But I mean, the regular seasonis long, right, These teams are
all gonna have injuries to deal with, and I wouldn't hate, you know,

(39:29):
giving Ron Holland the keys for twogames and just seeing how it goes.
But yeah, I honestly think there'sa chance he's playing in the G
League a lot as a rookie ifhe falls enough, just because like he
is, he's he needs that,right, like he really needs. Not
that the G League was great forhim the first time around because of how
disastrous the night were, but presumablythese NBA teams have better programs than Ignite,

(39:49):
which is why it's going away.But and he could go in and
he could sort of operate with realspace to work with, with real teammates
who aren't just trying to get theirs, with a teammate who doesn't think he's
a number one overall pick when he'sbarely in the top twenty. We can
get to Buzzellis here in a secondif you want. But like, I
think that that Holland is, likeBrad said, he's eighteen, right,
like if he's not gonna be gooduntil he's probably twenty one. But you

(40:13):
got to give him the time tolike really good, but you have to
give him the time to get therein order for that to happen. Yeah,
I definitely agree. I think hecould help you now, but it
would be in a small role.It would be I would love to know
if you get him a shot doctor, you know what is what's going to
happen? Send the man to Detroitwith Fred Vincent. Yeah, I wouldn't
mind that. You know, onpaper, Detroit is the bad situation for
him because they just need shooting now, and he doesn't give you that.

(40:35):
But you're right, like, youknow, fine, find you know,
Okay, See, it would bewould be another one they got they got
to pick in the middle of this. They have Chippenglin that might be interesting
too. He did, of courseI've heard. I'm not trying to say
he's gonna be Kauwhi. But ifKawhi San Diego State version was a better
defense, was a better defender thanRon Holland is now. But Kawhi people
have kind of just forgotten this.Kauhi was like seen as it's like kind
of not not a zero offense,but was not an offensive bet at all

(41:00):
necessarily. I don't know, hewas kind of seen as a zero on
offense. Yeah, he was closeto it. Yeah, and I think
that's Hollin's already shown a lot morethan that. But of course you can't
project that outlier development that Kawhi had, so I'm not saying you can't do.
But I've used Jimmy Butler. Comparisonto Jimmy was granted, he fell
in a thirty, but he wasa multi year college player who was seen
as a defense first, second,third, supporting piece. And then Jimmy

(41:22):
had this crazy but development maybe itdevelops the wrong word makeup wise, Ron
Holland has this crazy competitor a littlebit less crazy and the crazy sense the
Jimmy actually is becuse Jimmy is anactual crazy person, I think, but
the competitiveness kind of reminds me ofwhat could be there. And if you
buy, you're sort of betting onthe kid to kind of figure it out.

(41:42):
I'm not saying that's that's not fullproof, because that can fail too
if you just can't figure out howto shoot. But I just generally buy
him, and he's in my topfive or six, despite the fact that
I know there is some doubts atrisk there. This is something that I
tried to consider more with Tyrese Maxeybecause we knew he was a hard work
at the times. Part of thereason I was so high on I was
during that draft. But I thinkthis is something that I'm learning more too,
Like you also really do need tobet on their willingness to do it

(42:07):
right. And Ron Holland more thananything, wants to do it and I
think that matters. We've talked alittle bit about sar at the top of
the draft. There's another French teenagerwho was expected to go highly in this
in this draft, Zachary Ristchure isthat I say that, right, Nope,
assure, I just think French.I should have known that I took

(42:30):
French. Yeah, I should haveknown. That's embarrassing on me, Zachary
resa Chet. I'm not going totry to say what team he's from.
I actually don't know what team he'sfrom. I admittedly have seen very little
of most of these guys. Howdo you all view him and compare?
We don't necessarily have to compare himto Sar just because they're both French,
although it does seem like there's kindof French. They're very they're very different

(42:52):
players, but they're also like ifyou did the consensus mainstream boards, they
would be one and two in someorder. Basically, you just do you
want to added them. I'm notsaying I agree with that, but if
you wouldn't added them up, likefor instance, ESPN is the most mansionam
mainstream boards. They have him,they have number one, they have for
a while. How do y'all feelabout him? I don't agree with that
evaluation, but go ahead, heis. He is not the next highest

(43:14):
rated French teenager on my board.Okay, I love to Ti John,
I don't. This is a toughone. For me, I think it's
the shoes on the other foot.Now, No, I got it right
though, Tijohn Salon think it's yeah, yeah, is the number six player
on my board, And it's entirelylike hey, take that up side swing
right like he is. The toolsare there and it's like you're fifteen to

(43:34):
twenty percent of the way done withthe project. But if you finish it
like again, could make a coupleof all star teams. And I don't
think that is there with someone likeResachet, who I have all the way
down. Let me scroll here alittle bit, Uh, Tobias Harris,
but let me scroll let me scrollhere a little bit. That's what you
want to hear from the pick ofthe draft. Nor is Tobias Harris?
But yes, you guys this butJohn has a huge poster war behind him,

(43:58):
and just like wow, there's thisplayer I have. I have a
scroll in front of me, andthen just looking down at the bottom,
I have met number nineteen. Justas a darkboard was Tobias Harris's face on
it. Well, no, that'sthat's over here, But no, I
think I have. So it's it'stough to watch these guys because level competition
is obviously so different with someone likeRecesche. I just don't get it right,

(44:22):
Like I just I've I've watched probablymore of him than anyone else,
because I went into this thinking thisis someone I would like based on what
everyone else is saying, and Ijust don't understand the love for him.
I don't think he's very good atanything, Like I think he's going to
be a fine defender. I thinkhe might shoot. I think he has
a fine handle and a secondary rule. But what are we doing? Like

(44:45):
how is this a like top threeguy for I really don't understand. I
feel like more than anyone. Likeusually I can go into these and be
like, Okay, I get it, Like I understand why people feel that
way. I felt lost watching Recessche, like I feel like I'm totally missing
something here. I don't think he'sany good. I think he's a wing
who has wing size, and likeis because he is wing size, he's

(45:06):
getting artificially shoved up the board,like I would take Ron Holland over him
one hundred times out of one hundred, like without question, you want to
you want to hear some of thenames I have above him? This will
make Brad Happy. So obviously SalonI said I have above him obviously don't
connect who. I'm sure we'll getto. I have Jalen Bridges above him,
and I have Justin Edwards above himas wings. Yeah, that sounds
like you. No, it's ifif Ben was more of a salesman online,

(45:30):
he would definitely use the clip thatyou just put out there about a
yeah. But because he you know, I had that thought as he was
saying, I'm gonna clip when becomesan All Star, I'm gonna I'm gonna
use that audio. I like.I like him more than John shocking,
and this is the it would bedifficult the opposite way of what we did
before about the V being a littlebit lower understanding. But I don't think

(45:52):
John's off base necessarily with with whathe's saying, because I had the theory
of reesa schet that people are puttingforth, especially not to pick on Givoni
or anything. I don't I don'tsee what cavoniss that. I will say
I have number one that kind ofbreaks my brain, and I don't see
that I never have. I dounderstand the theory of six' nine wing

(46:13):
in this league with everybody wants sixto nine wings who can shoot and defend,
and I do at least understand that. I don't think that the actuals
match that, because for me,there's a lot that he can't shoot or
well. I was gonna say Iwas gonna go a little bit, a
little bit softer than that. ButI do think in general people are overrating

(46:36):
in the safety of his jump shot. If you look in previous years,
in particular, he didn't shoot itthat well. This year he had two
hot stretches early and late in themiddle it was really bad, like low
mid twenties for a decent sample sizebad. And the overall year, I
think he shot thirty eight percent fromthree. That's obviously a good a good
number to have out there, butI would like to go bigger picture last

(46:59):
two, three, four years,and it's more like load of mid thirties.
And if that doesn't happen, likeif he's not a plus shooter,
I'm not saying elite. If he'snot a good shooter, like a Capitol
G good shooter, I don't knowwhat happens. Like the downside risk if
he's not a good shooter is prettysignificant for me. I think he's an
off ball player mostly like he doesnot have on ball juice that I see

(47:22):
on a regular basis. I thinkhe makes good reads as a passer,
like he's but he's not a hugeplus initiator creator type. I think he's
an off ball player. And ifyou say off ball player and also take
away the shooting and make it justokay even if he's an okay shooter,
I think that's he'll be an NBAplayer as an okay shooter, but not
going to be a plus plus plusguy. So that there's that side of

(47:43):
it. And John said he can'tdefend. I also don't think that he's
a shutdown guy defensively. I thinkhe might be a solid rotational forward defensively.
I think he's got some nice flashesdefending small guards. Actually, like
that's my what when I like tobuy his defense the most is when he's
been actually taking like point of attackreps, which you wouldn't think of like
the six' nine rangey forward,But like I actually like that probably the

(48:04):
probably more. But him one onone against like big physical forwards is not
the best. I think he's gonnabe okay there, but I mean Ben
having not watched a ton of him, I presume, like, does that
sound like everyone to roll pick toyou, not to me. Not to
me, it doesn't sound like alottery pick to me. Like and by
the way, like me having himat nineteen, I was really running out
of guys that I liked when Igot like sixteen, seventeen, eighteen in

(48:24):
this class. I do say toagain not to repeat, that I'm higher
on on the John. I getit in like the mid late lottery of
this draft. I get it.I'm not even saying that I love it,
but I get it totally. Butand look, I'm trying to remove
on some level the number one picknessof this class, like the top because
everyone has flaws in this draft,so like it's worth grating on a curve
you have to. And even withthat curve, I just don't see like

(48:47):
probably any star outcome upsides for him. Like it's hard for me to envision
a world where he is a topthirty player in the league. If I
can't envision that even as like ninetyfive percent ofle out, it's really hard
to sell me on that in thetop two or three of a draft,
even a bad draft. It feelslike we should unless Ben has takes on
Resaschet, whose name he definitely knows. It feels like we should pivot to

(49:10):
Boozellis, who I have one slotlower than Resa sche at twenty. Go
for it, Yeah, go ahead, John. I really don't understand this
one. This is like guy whothinks he should be a number one option
in an offense, who is nota good shooter, but everyone keeps trying
to tell me that he can shoot, no matter how much I watch it,
and like people are more confident inthe shot than I am too,
Like I'm not. When I watchhim, I'm like, oh, he'll

(49:31):
be fin Like there are guys thatyou can look at. Obviously Holland isn't
in this camp, but you know, even someone like I don't know Devin
Carter, it's like, yeah,I know it's a one year sample,
but I can see it like he'sgonna you know, he's probably gonna shoot
a decent clip. I don't thinkBozzellis is a good shooter. I think
he's a really good athlete who couldbe better defensively than maybe I'm projecting him
to be. But I don't knowthat if he's not getting his reps offensively.

(49:54):
He doesn't feel like the kind ofguy who's going to be putting it
all out there defensively. The comparisonis as damning as it gets for me,
given I just compared someone to TobiasHarris, but Tobias Harris but worse.
It was Ben Simmons, but worsein a willing shooter pre twenty twenty
three. Kelly, you bray ondefense right, like the tools are there
on defense really drawing from the Sixersvillains with his brother. This is my

(50:16):
brain. This is how compares heto Tobias Harris or Ben Simmons. You
know that it is not good foryou, but listen. Made note that
it was pre twenty twenty three Kelly, you brown defense and that he has
like all these tools that should makehim a better defender, but it's just
for whatever reason, he's not defending, like he doesn't seem to want it.
On that and believe me, Iwatched I watched the Warriors with Kelly.

(50:37):
You bray on that. Yeah,I know what you're talking about.
You can take your pick of anyU brain iteration. Really well, he
was better this year. I haveto say. Yeah's why said yeah,
sorry, I went to any iteration. No, I think that those are
all It's all fair. He's agood athlete, which is helpful. I
do think that the approach he hasin his camp has will be important because

(50:58):
to John's point, I don't seemany like number one, number two option
outcomes for Bozellis and if he's notthat, and if I'm if I was
his agent, I'd be telling him, hey, your best bet to be
to make one hundred million dollars isto embrace your athleticism, defense and role
player potential in the league. Thatagain really loves six to nine wings who

(51:19):
are athletic, and he is.But I do think that people that like
him more. I found draw fromhis high school senior year with the shooting
in particular, because he shot itwell as a high school senior. That
did happen. How much do youcare about that is up for debate because
he didn't shoot it well this yearin the G League. I'll make the

(51:40):
same just to be fair, I'llmake the same cage with Holland, who
I like more. It was abad context. It was. It was
a bad context. They didn't alot of spacing. But he wasn't as
good as Holland was I don't thinkas an overall player in the G League,
and I think it's it is verytheoretical. With Madus, the tools
are all there. I do thinkthat will be about what he what he

(52:00):
wants to be and how the shotis that you know, with Holland,
it's more like, okay, canhe shoot at all? I do think
Mozelli's like will be like a guywho gets guarded some but I don't know
if the playoffs and maybe not thatmaybe that's actually might be a good,
exactly good thing about what it mightbe. Maybe he's a guy that shoots
in the in the load to midthirties during the record season, gets kind

(52:22):
of guarded and then when the lightscome on and teams have to pick someone
to leave, they leave him andhe can't make him pay. That's that
is one of the downside scenarios withhim. I like him famous last words.
I like him more than John does, but I do I do think
that there are some concerns and that'swhy you know, people that I've trusted,
you kind of seen him dip alittle bit like he was in that

(52:43):
top two or three coming into theyear, along with ironically Collier in Holland.
The three of them were kind ofa lot on those lists back in
like August and September, and Madusdidn't really come back up. But at
the same time, he's got somepotential top six to seven outcomes in this
class as far as like where he'sgoing to go in the draft, so
people there are fans of him.I wish I knew if he could shoot.
I mean, it's different from Riche, where like Risa sche has to

(53:06):
shoot, has to, has to, has to. Bozellis can be a
pretty good player if he's just anokay shooter, but all his ceiling outcomes
come with like shooting that did nothappen this year the jo. I'm also
more confident that Resache is going tobe mediocre at enough stuff that he'll be
in rotation for a while, whereasBuzillis, like I could see him flaming
out in a few years. AndI trust recent jump shop more. Just

(53:27):
to say that out loud, becausethere was anything. I think che his
shooting baseline is higher than Buzell's.If I thought Bozellis's shooting was the same
as Rica Che, I'd had Bozillishigher because I like his tools better,
Like athletically, I think is kindof like a med athlete. But I
do like his shooting better than Bozell's. As as I continue to hijack this
podcast from Ben as As our belovedhost, one guy we haven't touched on

(53:51):
is Donovan Klinging. I was justgonna ask you all about the US a
little bit of ent Yeah. Idon't kind of get in as much with
him either, like I said Walkersler, but a little bit more mobile and
like I think Kessler got exposed thisyear, right, Like you saw that
he's pretty flawed as a player inpretty you know, twenty six minute big
not a playoff big, necessarily kindof guy, and I think that's probably

(54:13):
what Kleion's going to be. Thatbeing said, I still have him eight
because I'm pretty confident that he's goingto be in a rotation for a long
time and potentially like a top fifteento twenty center. It's just once you
hit that threshold with centers, howmuch does it matter anymore? Yeah?
I think that just based on thatI have I like him more than John
does. I think that the WalkerKessler comparison is a reasonable one for sure,

(54:34):
I've used like a visa Zubach aslike a median outcome comparison. And
by the way, people might laughat he's a quality starting He's the most
underrated players, right. So whenI say that, especially on a Hawk's
podcast, people were like, wait, that guy who is that? It's
like, well, he's a startingcenter in NBA. That's a good player.
It's not a sexy number one overallpick option like it has been about.

(54:57):
Through that prism. I trust thedefense. I think think it's gonna
be quite good. But there isa gap between Rudy Gobert where he gets
compared sometimes to more modest Zubach,Walker Kessler, you know, Mark Williams,
that kind of tier of player,which I think at a bare minimum,
I'm very confident that Klinton's gonna bea good defender in the NBA.
But good defender at center versus gamechanger at center is a fairly significant gap.

(55:22):
I think I like the offense morethan a lot of people do at
all. Well, there you go, so that there's the differences, and
I don't think it's And when Isay that, I don't mean as a
star, I mean as I likehis passing, I think he's got he's
a good finisher around the rim,and he's massive, so I think the
floor is pretty high offense too.Now, I don't project him as a

(55:45):
shooter. If he shoots, thengreat, but that's a bonus for me.
I'm not factoring that in. Buthe had great efficiency numbers at the
college level, and since we're talkingabout Yukon, I do have a question
about how much of that was Yukonversus how much of that was Clanion,
because they run the best stuff inthe country. He's playing with great players,
great coach. That is definitely aconcern that maybe that was propped up

(56:07):
by Yukon and by his overall ukonness. But I do like the passing and
the rebounding, and he's a giant, and I think that he'll be functional
now. Upside beyond that is moreof a concern. So in a normal
draft I would have him probably woreJhonda's late lottery pick something like that.
In this class, I think takinghim as early as the top three or

(56:27):
four is not unreasonable. It doesn'tmean you have to do it, but
I think that if you're grant onthe car that we had been grading On,
I would understand it. My linewith the Hawks as the cover of
the team has overall pick is likeI wouldn't want to take clan a number
one. I wouldn't. I understandhaving him high in the class, and
if they trade down he becomes likemaybe target number one for them because part
of that, I know they likehim, but he just doesn't move me

(56:50):
as like star power. But man, the defensive upside is real. I
think that the size and the reboundingand reprotection, his reprotection might be the
best skill on the whole draft.Like I pause the halland motor to me,
Okay, maybe yeah, well actually, John, think about that storry
to do that to you, Benand hijacking too. Go ahead, man,
you may as well leave. Atthis point, I'm the game manager,

(57:12):
point guard. I'm spotting up rightnow if the ball comes to me,
great anti Morris Ladner today, Ihave positive that I don't know if
I'm committed to this, but Ithink Klingon might be the highest floor prospect
in the class. Yeah. I'msuper confident that he is going to be
an NBA center that is like thetwentieth twenty fifth worst center or twenty fifth
best center. In the league fifthworser. Yeah, projection not that far

(57:37):
off from the twenty fifth best thoughunfortunately for centers. But yeah, I
think that's I'm really confident that he'sgoing to be in the NBA for a
long time, more than anyone else. Uh. And to continue to hijack
this from Bend though, we're atthe point you just want to name some
guys that you love more than everybodyelse. Just list some dudes. Everyone's
favorite thing to do? Do youwant to get the castle? Ben?
Before we I was going to askyou about just quickly tell you about Stefan

(57:57):
Castle, and then I have acouple of lightning round things because I know
we got to get out of here, John start, go ahead, Yeah,
san Antonio Derek White right, Like, he's all of the role playery
stuff on defense that you love.He was willing to buy into his rule
at Yukon, which I think isimportant. Now there's been some reporting that
he wants more than that in theNBA, which is a problem. But

(58:17):
he's not a good shooter right now. But I don't I think this goes
to Bizillis a little bit. He'llget guarded and in the postseason we'll see
if he can get to the pointwhere he can be a good enough shooter
to be more than that. Butyeah, I think at the end of
the day's going to develop into likea thirty six thirty seven percent shooter from
deep can create a little bit offensively. He's a smart passer. I've said
this a lot, but he hasa really good feel for the game.

(58:37):
I think there's a lot of thoseguys in this class and a lot of
guys who absolutely don't have that.In this class. It feels like there's
no middle ground this year. Butyeah, I think he is. He's
going to be if I had topick someone that I was confident going is
going to be a starter for thelong time, it's it's Castle, Like.
I just think he's like, thisis what you're looking for in the
modern NBA, like guard wing type. I like Castle quite a bit too.

(58:58):
Not to go back to six orscoins or I have compared him not
only to him, but I likethe day. I like like he's like
like a little bit bigger Dan AnthonyMilton. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that kind of I worry about theshot a little bit more because Mountain,
I think, Yeah, no,I agree, I'm just saying like,
as far as like archetype is concerned, I'm like, there's upside beyond that.
But like and by the way,just to give the caveat, Milton's
a guy that I've always liked morethan consensus. I think Melton's quite good

(59:21):
when when help, So that's Idon't mind. Santo Derek White, like
pre shooting breakout Derek White is verysimilar. I agree with that. I
would love to know, Yeah,the background about in the intel about his
worning to be a point guard stuff. I don't give him as a point
guard. I do think that hecould be a secondary ball handler if you
have a guy next to him that'slike an equally secondary ball handler. But

(59:42):
that might work. What you don'twant to have him do is stand in
the corner and just be a spotguy. I wouldn't. I don't love
that. I think he might beable to do it, but right now
he doesn't do that well. Andif you watch him at Yukon, part
he was a freshman on a loadedteam. He was like their fifth option
on offense a lot at Yukon,which is weird for a guy who's gonna
be like it could say this Topten pick but he was and but they
used him well and not to goif you if you're worried about it a

(01:00:06):
little bit. Dan Hurley knows whatto do with guys that have weaknesses and
he kind of approached that well withCastle in the NBA. When you don't
have Dan Hurley in that advantage,maybe you got a little bit of the
question. But I like him alot too. I will really do buy
the defense. He's not that Imean, I shouldn't say that he's not
an elite athlete. He's a prettygood athlete, but it's more he's a
ranginess for him. Yeah, I'mnot worried about his athleticism, I think

(01:00:28):
is the best way to put it. Like, I never think it's gonna
be he's going to be a deficitfrom that standpoint. Just to round it
out that we didn't match Nikola Topitchis fifth for me. We didn't talk
about them all and I had Castleat seven behind so long. Yeah,
Topich is currently hurt, but Ilike him to know and like should just
take the upside shot range for me. And Castle is more like shooting guard
size. Well, he can playthe three two, but he's not like
he's not I think he's like sixfive and a half six six six nine

(01:00:51):
Wings fans something like that. That'sgood size for it. Two, great
size for it. Two, it'sokay at the three. We'll see where
that goes. But I am afan of his for sure. I you
know, when the Hawks were pickingwell back at you know, nine or
ten going into the lottery, Iwas like dreaming about a Steph Castle trade
up scenario. And at number oneit's too high. So he's kind of
in that no go zone for theHawks, like the team that I cover.

(01:01:12):
But I wish I talk about himmore because he's I like it.
Yeah, he wrapped. He wasa guy that I did not expect to
like, quite frankly, and Iloved him. Yeah. Two rapid fire
questions before we get out of here. First, give me the skill you
feel most confident of all the playersthat you have in the lottery. The
single skill you feel most confident willtranslate to the NBA. And then,
as we wont to do here,list a couple of guys, maybe back

(01:01:37):
of the first round or early secondround, that you like more than the
consensus. So real quick, I'mleaving Red Sheepherd out of this because it's
like he's the shooting is the obviousrun okay with that Shepherd. I'm not
sure if it's obvious for me,but he would be. That would be
high. The list is reach over. Yeah, and before we do the
list of guys thing too, they'renot end of first round guys for me
this year. They're like late teensthat I'm like, I like this guy

(01:01:58):
and it feels like they should bein the late first But the skill most
confident is Jared McCain shooting. Absolutelyconfident he's gonna be a knockdown, lights
out shooter off the catch, offthe tribble, off of you know,
off of movement, Like he isreally really good. And honestly, I'm
a little surprised he's not higher forsome people because I'm confident that he has
the most translatable NBA skill at anelite level and I think he's gonna,

(01:02:20):
you know, he does it inways that the teams are searching out these
days. I had him as athicker JJ Reddick h I dig that.
Yeah, Shepherd shooter will be hot. I think Klingon's rimp protection is high.
Just to go a little bit furtheroff the board for depth purposes.
I will go with Devin Carter's defense. Yes, that's good. Devin Carter's

(01:02:43):
guard defense, point of attack.Defense he's got from Providence. Fast Riser
was not saying as a lottery pick, and now I think it's probably gonna
go late lottery in this class basedon what I'm hearing and seeing. But
I really buy his defense. Theoffensive side is more of a question but
his defense, I really think it'sgonna be quite good. From the jump.
He's not huge, you know,sixty three or so, but it
has like a six nine wingspan.Speak of the Anthony Melton, Yeah,

(01:03:06):
well I had Bruce Brown, butmaybe can shoot question mark. Yeah,
because again I'm not entirely sure aboutthe show. Big fan, all right,
John, give me your guys,give me your your mid first round
guys. All right. I've beenon this edition four years. Jalen Bridges
is someone that I'm very high on. I think like he's what reesa che
like what people are kind of sayinghe is. He's I'm really confident he's

(01:03:27):
gonna shoot. I'm really confident he'sgonna be a good off. Bald Fender
reminds me a lot of Robert Covington, quite frankly, like I think he's
a little bit better of an athletethan Covington was. Someone that I'm confident
is going to stick in the leaguefor a while. And again there's this
thirst for wings. But for whateverreason, Bridges is viewed as a second
round guy rather than a late firstyou know, post lottery late teens first
round pick. But to me fitsthat that archetype kalel Ware. I keep

(01:03:50):
falling for these Indiana guys, likeI think he can be exactly what Derek
Lively is. A really good athlete. He's got to buy in more offensively
and defensively, quite frankly, butall the tools are there. Love justin
words, who I called a modernnick Batoon because I am who I am,
And we are back to the cornerbaby uh Kaishawn George someone that I
really like that I watched a tonof this year that I think is like

(01:04:10):
Jeremy I called him Jeremy Grant andzero but with like that kind of upside
right like he's not there at allright now, but all like you can
see it and you saw at timesuh this year at Miami And let's do
one last one Bronnie James. Ohwhat do I respond? No, But
I will say the Bronnie James isbigger, more athletic t J McConnell,
which I think I have. I'llkeep it quick. The people that watched

(01:04:33):
Bronnie in high school still buy it. Not like a pressure I'm saying as
a potential NBA player, Whereas ifyou just watch college, just like,
what are we even doing here withBronnie James? When we say USC was
like a big disaster, it wasan unmigated disaster. It was as for
me and that's usually a second roundpick based on this class. It was
a disaster and he literally had acardiac event season. Everybody overlooking this from

(01:04:59):
months and months of mon and Iagree. I don't understand why something talked
about as a factor of why hedidn't play well this year. He didn't
play basketball for like five months.Anyway, Yeah, CO signed John.
I like Brian James late in thedraft obviously, all right, name,
I'm gonna name some guys before youget out of here. Hell yeah,
he came up before Tristan de Silvafrom Colorado, big fan. He's very
old, but I like him quitea bit. Deron Holmes from Dayton.

(01:05:24):
Yes, big, big, fanskilled, big uh. Ryan Dunn is
my personal kryptonite. Ryan Dunn justthis is this is what mostly for Ben.
Ryan Dunn is simultaneously the best defensiveplayer in the class and the worst
offensive player in the class at thesame time. Brad has fallen into the
John Sopper trap of the guy whocan't do anything offensively. But he's Andre

(01:05:47):
Robertson. He is the He's that'swhat he is right now. Yeah,
and there's a debate about what thatplayer means. I would take a shot
because his defense is that good.It is, It's preposterous. He's that
good defense. I'm not saying atop twenty pick, but like, once
you get past the top twenty,I would do it. Who else do?
I like Jamal shed as a secondround pick, backup point guard who

(01:06:09):
can guard. Big. Fan ofhim, going down the list, going
on the list, going down thelist. Oh Sogadoro weird big from Marquet,
Yes, very weird. Like hima lot, definitely strange. Tristan
Newton also strange. Yukon like hisgame, like his passing, and I'll
give you one more. Isaiah Crawfordfrom Louisiana Tech. Okay, I've not

(01:06:30):
watched Crawford and now is a he'stwenty two, but he's got a seven
foot wingspan as a wing and hejust does stuff well. And if he
hadn't played at Losiana Tech, hewould be higher in this class. He
is my like least known player toa casual fan that I am in on
like top thirty five for me,like I think he I think if you
drafted him at thirty I'd be totallyfine with it. Two more of two

(01:06:51):
of the worst guys that I watched, but I feel obligated to name them.
Baylor Sheynman as a big lefty Yeah, listen, his name big Lefty
Jimmer because big Lefty Jimmer for debtis a fun comparison for he can,
yes, but he's just the worstathlete on the court at all times.
Uh. And then aj Mitchell fromUCSB, who I really want to like,

(01:07:13):
and I again had to talk myselfdown. I ended up having him
at thirty eight and said Bradley bealbut way worse at all of it,
but like kind of maybe not,you know, like if there's a guy
like that's I'm gonna stake my myflag on a j Mitchell Island. As
if a second rounder hits big,I think it's gonna be Mitchell. I
wish I was as good as Johnas a comparisons, because I never would
have gotten to Bradley Beal but worseat everything. That's that's a that's a

(01:07:36):
very interesting comperson. Well, it'sjust like when I watched him, it
was worse. Well listen, that'sjust that's just my way to take a
shot at the guy. But likewith Bal, with him and Bale,
it's like when I watched him,I was like, this is what Bradley
Beal looks like like in the NBA. But he's doing it against worst competition
where you can kind of not getaway with or you can get away with
more, you know what I mean. Like he's it's the same. The

(01:08:00):
distance between him and the competition isthe same. Yeah. The problem is
it doesn't scale up when he goesto the NBA. Unless it does.
Unless it does, we will findout. We will, we will know
in time. The draft is soon. I don't actually you said it's on
Wednesday, right, It's Wednesday's twodays, two days Wednesday and Thursday this
year two days, two day events, which is something Yeah, that's and

(01:08:20):
at like four o'clock on Thursday,that's something we all asked for. Yeah,
the whirlwind of life has has keptme from knowing such things with such
precision as I used to. Nevertheless, we appreciate both of y'alls insight me.
I speak on behalf of the listenershere and on behalf of John and
myself. Brad, thanks for forhopping on. We appreciate you taking the
time out. Sorry for keeping youa little longer than No, I gave

(01:08:44):
you the green light to do that. I always love talking to you both
about this kind of thing. We'llsee how right. John is usually more
right than I am, I imagine, But yeah, no, this is
fun, always a good exercise,and it also encourages me to be more
firm in my convict. I wantto be more like John when I grew
up. That's that's listen. That'sa terrifying statement. But like that is
something that I tried to do moreof a few years ago when I was

(01:09:08):
really honestly, the MAXI class likecam LaMelo ball that was the first year
is like if I don't see it, I don't see it, Like you
know what I mean like and Ithink I had LaMelo, Ball Wheler and
everyone else, and like, listen, you're gonna miss sometimes it's all right.
I always get the sense we couldgo on for hours and hours longer
than we do. We mentioned Daltonconnect. I know we didn't get to
a lot of these guys. Wasnot mentioned on this podcast to my knowledge.

(01:09:31):
This is I feel like this hasbeen one of the symptoms of discussing
a draft like this, where thereisn't kind of that elite group. It's
just all over there's a handful ofguys at the top, and then it's
all over the map. So wegot some guys, uh, people may
not have been as familiar with,maybe not to some guys that people might
have a better sense of. Soin a sense, that's probably a good
thing. Harrison Ingram Okay, justbefore we leave, Before we leave,

(01:09:57):
tell the people where they can findyour work and what you're up to these
days. Yeah, biggest thing forNBA purposes is the Locked on Hawks podcast.
You can find it all on Twitterif you like, if you're still
on that platform at BT Roland andI also write some stuff at dime,
probably a little bit less than Iused to, but that's my non Hawks
outlet in the NBA slash college,slash draft, slash WNBA and whatever else.
Diamond Uprocks is the other place thatI am right again. We appreciate

(01:10:21):
you taking the time everyone, thanksfor listening. We appreciate you getting all
the way to the end. Wewill talk to you all soon, probably
after the draft, some sort ofdispatch to break down the good, the
bad, the log in at tenpm on Wednesday night all the results of
the first round. Until then,everyone stay safe, take care of yourselves,

(01:10:41):
take care of each other, makesure to stay hydrated as always.
And John, I'll talk to youlater. Talk to you soon.