The Perils of Compulsory Monogamy (And Why Polyamory Won't Fix This!) with Mel Cassidy

The topic of polyamory seems to be everywhere these days. From articles in The Atlantic
describing it as the ruling class's latest fad, to the controversy surrounding Aubrey Marcus and “radical monogamy” (essentially polygamy), polyamory is highly present in the media right now.

But is polyamory really a new trend? Is it even new at all? Or is it a way of relating that predates colonialism and recalls a time when humans were less isolated and more communal?

In this week’s episode of Sex Is Medicine, Devi and Alaina speak with somatic relationship coach Mel Cassidy about their new book, Radical Relating: A Queer and Polyamory-Informed Guide to Love Beyond the Myth of Monogamy

Described as a provocative, trauma-informed guide to post-monogamy, this book helps readers build liberated relationships rooted in empowerment, equity, and authenticity.

Join Devi, Alaina, and Mel for an in-depth conversation about the myths and misrepresentations of polyamory and how to navigate non-monogamy from a “woke” perspective.

In this episode, we will:
- Deconstruct myths and misrepresentations surrounding polyamory
- Explore the difference between polyamory and polyfuckery
- Learn how and why the nuclear family was created (and how it does NOT reflect our human history)
- Uncover how and why the nuclear family model creates suffering for families and communities
- Highlight toxic approaches to non-monogamy that perpetuate patriarchy and white supremacy culture
- Understand the role of queerness in non-monogamy

And so much more!

About Mel Cassidy
Mel Cassidy is a somatic relationship coach committed to the path of liberatory love and rewilding intimacy. They specialize in working with queer and questioning humans (and those who love them), exploring post-monogamous relationships—with a focus on polyamory, solo polyamory, and relationship anarchy.

They are of Irish, Greek, and Romani descent and have lived in 3 countries, across 3 continents. They currently live in British Columbia, Canada, and work with clients and students worldwide. Their first book, Radical Relating: A Queer and Polyamory-Informed Guide to Love Beyond the Myth of Monogamy, is published by North Atlantic Books.

Find them on Instagram/Facebook/Substack/Insight Timer @radicalrelating or visit radicalrelating.ca


Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)

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See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Davy Ward Ericson and I'm Elena Salks, and.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
You are listening to sex is Medicine, your number one
resource for holistic sex education.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Elena and I are.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Bringing you over twenty seven years of combined expertise in
the field of holistic sexual wellness to help you integrate
your body, mind, spirit, and sex.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
New episodes drop every Thursday morning, so make sure to
like and subscribe on all your favorite listening platforms, and
make sure you follow Holistic Sexology Institute on Instagram, TikTok,
and YouTube for your daily dose and sex is Medicine. Now,
let's get started.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, and welcome back to sex is Medicine, your number
one resource for woke holistic sex education.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
I am one of your.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Amazing hosts, missus Davy word Ericson.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
And I am Elena Salks.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Woohoo, and we are happy to be here with our
friend and colleague Mel Cassidy and so many of you
will be familiar with Mel and their work. They are
an alumni of Sex's Medicine. We've done a couple episodes
of Sex's Medicine with Mel talking about neotontra polyamory, and

(01:21):
we are here with Mel today to celebrate an incredible
accomplishment and a very very necessary resource for those of
us in the field of sexology and alternative relationships. And Mel,
I'm going to give you their bio. Mel Cassidy is

(01:43):
a somatic relationship coach committed to the path of liberatory
love and rewilding intimacy. They specialize in working with queer
and questioning humans and those who love them, exploring post
monogamous relationships with a focus on PolyAm polyamory, and relationship anarchy.

(02:04):
And you can read more about Mel in the description
of this episode. And I want to say that we
have had many students who we have referred to Mel
to work with, who have all reported just so much
gratitude to have had the opportunity to work with your compassionate, loving,

(02:25):
expertise and support.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
So thank you, Mel.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I'm so honored and proud to call you a friend
and colleague, and I'm so grateful to have you here
to talk about your amazing frickin' book. I've been listening
to it on audible, so you sent us the book
to review, and I skimmed it and I'm like, I'm
not gonna I like I'm having an issue with like
actually sitting and reading reading right now. And so I've
been loving listening to things, and so I remember that

(02:53):
you did. I was so delighted that you did the
voiceover for your book because that makes I know, not
everybody can do that, but it makes such a different rints.
And the warmth and grace and depth and richness of
your voice as you're sharing your work is medicine.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's so soothing, it's just so madic and of itself.
It truly is as I'm like, whyk you Rodically, I'm like,
oh oh oh.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
So just listening to you express these concepts is like
getting an internal massage as.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
You're like, Integram.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Really, I'm really I'm really juicing up because it's not
good for me.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
I'm just it's not good.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Thank you that. I think that's the most beautiful reflection
anyone's given me on the audio book so far. That's lovely.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
I'm really digging that. I'm really digging it. I'm really
digging it.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
And yeah, and then so so you you sent us
a celebration box and you were gonna send it to.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Me and Costa Rica, but it wouldn't get here until
like next year.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
So we could actually do this, and so we want
to do this live on air with all of you.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
So Elena leading.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
Okay, So I have Mells.

Speaker 5 (04:14):
Beautiful box and we're going to open it up, and
inside we have this incredible, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Packaged box with radical lading on the cover.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Look at that marketing Look at that marketing box.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Woo beautiful ombre, pink and blue and almost a ruined
this when it came because I it was so gorgeous
and I wanted to get into it. And then on
the inside, we have this beautiful crinkle paper in here.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
Right, and I want to just turn the box up
a little bit because there's writing on the edge.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah. Oh, let's see what that says.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
See that un blurred a little bit.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
May are ways of life be embodied in liberatory? Wow?
Oh that's the theme. May are ways of loving be
embodied and liberatory and like reclamation of our roots, man,
reclamation of our humanity. Yeah, being in our bodies is
like our human nature right.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, And and people ask and I talked about this
in the book, like people ask me like why radical,
and I'm like, radical comes from the word root. This
is really about getting into our roots and honoring that
that deepest part of authenticity.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
We can grow in all these different ways, but we
have these common roots systems.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yep, yeah, yeah, yep, that's beautiful. Yeah cool, all right,
more of the box, get rid of that.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
So let's have this gorgeous wrinkled paper is here, there's
a lovely.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Totes rewild the ways we love, rewild, break free.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
I'm so excited for a while you want to see
you day.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
I know we won't see each other for like another
next month.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Or so, maybe like my grocery stains on it by
the time I give.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
It to you. How about a gift to you? And
then the book, Oh, this is so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
Let me turn off my I feel like I can't.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
See see it. Yes, it's beautiful. Hey, yes, a queer.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Empower and informed guide to love beyond the myth of an.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Actual, an actual, tangible paperback copy of a book.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
I missed those so much.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
I love them so much, and I missed them so much.
And then the sticker boo, I want that all right, yeah,
all right, thank you Bells Publishers for that beautiful It.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
Did such a beautiful job putting those together. And like
this is something with the journey of writing this book
is that it has felt so supported at every step
and and I feel like, I mean, I call it
my book baby, right, and I feel like, you know,
whenever we birth something that we create, whether it's a

(07:22):
life or a creative project, it takes more than a
single person to do it right. It takes a village.
It takes a community. And it's been so amazing to
feel supported by my publishers and everybody there and also
like all my peers, like you guys and everyone else

(07:43):
he's been excited for the book, and to be supported
by my friends and by my clients and my students,
like it has this feeling of like, yes, this was
ready to come forth into the world, and this weird,
weird timing for it all, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
And something that I've been so loving about the book
is having known you for almost a decade now and
being exposed to many of your teachings, whether directly or indirectly,
and seeing them all coming together in this book and
then expounded upon and deepen into with the lens that

(08:27):
you carry, which is so much more expansive than you know,
the mainstream concept of polyamory, and you know which is
tends to be a very kind of superficial overview of it,
and so and also a very I'm going to say
cis white normative view in terms of, you know, the
way it's presented in the New York Times articles. You know,

(08:49):
just just some of the things that have come across
my radar of like polyamory it's the new fad and
blahodah blah, and so you know, to be listening to
your book and and and integrating this information.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
With it's anchored with such.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Depth and such profund profundity in actual history and the
actual history of our humanity and how we got to
where we are today, and and the constant the relationship
constructs that we just you know, absorb as as normal
as the default, and how those are actually programs, those

(09:28):
are it's it's conditioning that has once again been implanted
or forced upon us, right, and how the roots of
that implantation or cultural conditioning again is all in capitalism
and making money.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
And you know, and some of these these.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Concepts that people will fucking die for, like die on
the hill, you know, to gender and you know, monogamy
and blah blah blah, are actually not actually part of
of our roots as human as ca in as humans,
and our narratives that have been sold to us as

(10:08):
as just the way things are, when actually they were
instituted specifically to for money and power and control. Yeah,
so that's what I'm getting from your book.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
Well, and it was really important to me that, Like,
you know, I think for many people, the journey of
exploring non monogamy, whether it's somewhere that they stay or
they don't, I think for a lot of people it's
a doorway into beginning to unpack a lot of those things.
And you know, I think there's so many ways we
can we can go at that. You know, we can

(10:44):
look at the economics in the world today, we can
go into like okay, let's look at the impacts of
colonialism and supremacy structures and patriarchy, and we can do
all these different pieces. But a lot of them are
big systems, and there's a limit sometimes to how much
we can individually affect those big systems. I think collectively

(11:08):
that's different. But unless you have a lot of power
and privilege, very challenging. And so where we can immediately
affect things is in our interpersonal relationships. Yes, Amen, and
The metaphor I like to use is like, you know,
we can pull it any single thread. Right, there is
this tapestry of systems in our world that hold us

(11:31):
locked into these states of oppression, that hold us separated
from each other, that power horde, that resource horde, and
we can pull it any single thread to begin unraveling
their tapestry. And the thread that I pull on is monogamy.
Compulsory monogamy, prescriptive monogamy, monogamy, yeah, exactly, monogamy, colonially imposed monogamy. Right,

(12:04):
this system that says you only get certain rewards if
you have at least the appearance of a monogamous relationship.
And then okay, if we want to unpack that, if
we want to pull that thread out, what are we
doing instead? And there's so many I mean, there's so
many books about how to do monogamy, you know, the

(12:26):
right way, And we've been lucky that in the last
decade there's more and more books about non monogamy that
I wasn't finding anything that really spoke to how do
we do this, like reprogramming of our soma, of our hearts,
of our minds, because so many people, even when we

(12:47):
know we don't want to do relationships in this oppressive
and restrictive and controlled way that replicates the systems of oppression,
even when we know we don't want to do it
that way. So many people struggle with, well, how how
do I go about doing this? Because this is the
only thing that's been modeled for me, and I've been
taught since I was young that this is going to

(13:08):
lead to safety. But this is how I'm going to
feel safe in a world that is constantly telling me
I'm not safe. And then we spiral out as soon
as we start to challenge monogamy, and there's moments of
panic and maybe you're cool, but your partner is panicking,
and you know, how do we show up for that?
So that's really been the origin of like a lot

(13:30):
of my work is going, well, what's the deeper below
surface level, Like this isn't just about how you manage
logistics of sharing your Google calendars. This is really about
how do we address what our heart is asking us for.
How do we support the experience of safety that the

(13:53):
way the systems of the world are designed, they deny
us that experience of safety.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yes, yes, And I love what I'm loving about your
book is the the I don't know if this is
what you're presenting you kind of you mentioned that the
presentation of it as a guide book along the path
for healthy non monogamy, and that really stood out for
me because I also resonated within the introduction Kai Cheng

(14:23):
Tom talking about how, you know, in the gen X
millennial like crazy world of neo, you know, Polly.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Bloody bloody blah. And that was my thing.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Like when I was like twenty two and backpacking Hawaii
and met some dude and he was Polly, I'm like, oh, okay,
I'll be Polly, you know, and so all of a
sudden we're in this relationship. Meanwhile I have like massive
CPTSD like suicidal ideation, Like I was just an emotional rack.
And so as a twenty two year old trying to
navigate this space of polyamory and having you know, jealousy

(14:56):
come up and hurt come up, and having no guidebook
or pathway for how to navigate that, and then just
being shamed for by human emotions and well, if you're
you know, if you're jealous, it means you're not evolved
enough to be polyamorous. And you know, meanwhile, we have
attachment traumas, and like jealousy is a normal, healthy human emotion.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
That if we can process it, we can get to
the other side of it.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
So I'm just remembering like I've I've been an out
of polyamory, of various stages of my life, in and
out of polyamorous relationships, I should say, in and out
of my life, and and the void that this book
fills in terms of having a touchstone, a guide for
how to navigate these spaces, and also just like empathy
and reassurance that I'm not fricking crazy and there's nothing

(15:43):
wrong with me because I'm I feel feelings. You know,
I've got feeling So it's like another way of approaching
it that doesn't just perpetuate, you know, the harm.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
Well, And I think this is a huge thing that
you're naming here, the importance of feeling feelings. There has
been literature within the world of polyamory that heavily pathologizes
people for having feelings. That has encouraged people to shut
that down, you know, some of the you know, I

(16:14):
think like ten or fifteen years ago, there were some
people who are like really popular within poly circles in
terms of like what they were writing and what they
were creating, and the consequences of what they were sharing
with people was basically, shut down your emotions, bottle it up,
gaslight yourself, and gaslight other people. And that just adds

(16:37):
on another layer of oppression. Yes, and I think that
what a lot of people have missed is that, you know,
going back to your experience of like your backpacking and
you know, okay, I guess I'm Polly now, and like
the way that we spiral out from a somatic perspective,
it's because we have nowhere to orient towards because it's new, right,

(17:02):
it's new, and it's unfamiliar, and what's new and unfamiliar
feels scary to our nervous system. Our nervous system looks
for what it knows, even if what it knows is
not healthy for us, it's not what we want, has
not been working. We go for it because it's familiar.
And so a lot of people when they hit that

(17:23):
moment of disorientation in their non monogamy journey, there is
this panic because we're looking for, well, where where do
I orient to? What's the goal here? If there's no
happily happily ever after? What am I doing? Do I
have a happily ever after with anybody? Am I am

(17:44):
I on that like partnership trajectory with anyone? Or what's
happening to me? How do I know myself? How do
I please all these partners? Like there's so much stimulation
and not enough of a framework for understanding it through,
And so many people have tried to create frameworks that
still come in with the biases of like supremacy culture

(18:06):
and colonialism and you know, heteronormativity, cess normativity, and you know,
as someone who's queer in gender and in orientation, as
someone who's a third culture kid, you know, I I'm like,
I never know what space to put myself in because
I have like such a mixed background. I think the

(18:29):
gift of that for me has been to go, well,
let there's no assumptions, Like I want to come at
this from as from a from a space of like
there's no assumed right way to do things. I'm really into,
like what what does the heart tell you? What does
your body tell you? You know, what does what does
spirit move you towards? And how can we find a

(18:51):
way to honor that that works for everybody.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yes, beautiful, beautiful.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
So let's dig in to the nuts and bolts. So
let's start with where we are now, our modern relationships
as they are, Like, so, you know what, we're spoon fed,
you know, a gen Z millennials, we were spoon fed
this like, okay, so you grow up and as a
as a volva owner. I'm a girl and I grow

(19:19):
up and I meet a handsome boy, probably in college,
and we get our degrees, and then we get married
and we have a white picket fence and two kids
and then we you know, and that's success, that's success.
And we live in a big house, you know, five
thousand square foot house.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
That's success. And you have a boat, and then you know,
that's that's or whatever.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
I mean, that was a version of success that I
was fed a boat, you know, like and then you
you know, you have your partner and whatever, and you
have your kids and you're supposed to be monogamous that
live happily ever after. Meanwhile, we know that's not what happens.
And you know, I will say when I was, you know,
teaching tontra in in Vancouver, and tntra and sex work

(19:55):
are the same thing.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
In Vancouver that they mean the same thing.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
And so in my initial contra teaching gos coming, you know,
and they were coming from a hand job, and I
thought I was coming to teach a meditation.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
They were coming from a hand job.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
But my point in all of this, Seguay is that
they were businessmen lunch breaks, going to get a hand job.
They were they would consider themselves monogamous. Yea, they would
consider themselves monogamous. And this is just you know, they're
they're earning, you know, half a million dollars a year
or whatever. This is just what they do on their

(20:29):
lunch breaks. They go to the Tontra sex worker during
their lunch break to get their tauntra massage, and their
wives do not know it, and they still consider themselves monogamous. Right.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
That's that's modern.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
That That's why when I was like, oh, this is
how people do monogamy, looks like white, wealthy North Americas.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
They go get hand jobs on their lunch break. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
Yeah, So that the modern the modern model of relationships,
like what you're describing in that like trajectory of like Okay,
I'm going to graduate college, We're gonna have the white
picket fence like we call that the relationship escalator, but
the specifics around it that is from the nuclear family.

(21:16):
And the nuclear family is a modern invention. It started
in like the forties and fifties and it was a
direct response to what happened during World War Two. So
during World War Two in North America, you had all
these men go off to fight in the war and

(21:36):
punch Nazis and the women were left behind and they
filled in the roles that men had done. So women
were entering the workplace en mass for you know, one
of the first times in modern history, and women were
finding the emancipation of that. And then post World War

(21:58):
Two you had the rise of socialism. You had this
this increase in community care, which I think is a
very natural thing to happen after time of war and conflict,
we go how do how do we stay together? And
you know, I spent my early childhood in the UK,
and in the UK that led to the creation of

(22:19):
the welfare state, where the state was like, we're going
to take care of people. So it kind of like
moderated socialism. And in North America it turned into the
nuclear family because they were like, no, we don't want
to be socialists. We want to be capitalist, and we
have all these factories that we need to do something
with that. We're creating ammunitions. Okay, we're going to create appliances.

(22:40):
We are scared that women are in the workplace. We
want to get women back into the house and being housewives.
And so they created this mythology around the way that
men and women are supposed to be. And we see
this resurgence coming up right now, right with all the
mega stuff. The trad wife, which which is.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
To be fair, I like being at home. I got
no prod. You could drag me, drag my wife me.
I'm like, I'm good. I'm good cweenen and sweeping and gardening.
I'm good with that.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
And I think part of what appeals about that that
lifestyle is that it is a simpler, there's less complication,
you know, there's and I think there's an aspect that
does speak to Like the homesteading that you're doing is
very different from that nuclear family, right, Like the trad
wife nuclear family model is like we are good consumers. Yes,

(23:43):
we have our toaster, we have our oven, and Professor
Ken Tolbert has wonderful talks about this. But like the
the way that it was encouraged for everyone to consume, consume, consume,
as part of this monogamy. I mean, look at wedding registries.
I remember when I got married, when I was doing that,
you know, relationship escalator, nuclear family. I was like, we

(24:05):
have to have a wedding registry. People have to buy
us stuff, and like we have to have our own
stuff and it has to be new and like I
you know, all of that template and so all of
this nuclear family, really it was to create separation because
it takes us away from community. Right if we look

(24:25):
at what relationships and what community building is like before
the nuclear family, and even in cultures where the nuclear
family isn't so predominant, which is hard because like the
way that Western media has spread throughout the world, it's
it's everywhere, you know, like everyone's growing up with the
sitcoms that come out of the States, and maybe not everybody,

(24:47):
but they're pervasive. And it's before the nuclear family, it
was a lot more community sharing. There was a lot
more resource opening. It was open resources, like we have
more food, let's give you some food. We're going to
make dinner for everybody. We don't have to have everybody

(25:08):
has like their own I don't know, barbecue, Like we
can have one barbecue in the middle of town and
everybody can use that, right, Like, there's there's a different
attitude towards sharing.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I'm pleasure there because I'm also aware of like
intergenerational living.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
So, like the nuclear family erased, Granny and grant, grant
that you put them in that nursing home. I'm not
living with your mom, you knows, the intergenerational family units
were erased as well, so children no longer could benefit
from the from being raised by their elders, and so
that oral tradition also is interrupted because the elders, you know,

(25:50):
tell the stories to the children, who then carry them
on to their families. So this interruption of lineage is
what I'm hearing as well with the nuclear family.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, so you get this separation and then you also
get this competition, right.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
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Speaker 4 (27:33):
We're no longer together in a single united cause. We
are these individual families, and we're in competition. Oh she's
got a new dress. I should have a new dress.
Oh they got the new sports car, we should get
the new sports car. Right, and you look at all
the marketing in the fifties and sixties, Like it's all

(27:53):
about this, and it's all centered around upholding this idea
of this monogamous nuclear family and and speaking to what
you were saying Davy about like the hypocrisy of like
people being supposedly monogamous and seeking out sex work. Right,
this is really really interesting. Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson,

(28:18):
who are biologists but also sex educators, they wrote about
this in their book Designer Relationships that people have different
ways of defining monogamy, you know, first, and within that,
different definitions of what counts as infidelity. Yes, because for
some people, infidelity is about the emotional connection. Yes, you're

(28:43):
having an emotional affair with your coworker, No, that's not allowed.
But if you're just getting jacked off I.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Hand job at lunch, how could you complain it's just
that yeah at lunch.

Speaker 4 (28:55):
Yeah, And and and you know it's I think the
definitions of infidelity can be very personal, and two people
might be in a relationship and not have the same
definition of infidelity. But that is I think really important
to know that infidelity is not as cut and dry

(29:15):
as we think it might be. And so even within
the definitions of monogamy, right, and if we look historically
through Europe, you know, if you had wealth and privilege
and power historically through Europe, you could have as many
mistresses as you wanted, and even some of the women

(29:36):
could take lovers depending on the times and the cultures.
And so this idea of sexual non monogamy was tied
to power and privilege.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
As it is now in many ways, as it is
now a modern society.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, and we see, and you know, the way
that the media tends to port it has tended to
not always, but it has tended to focus on people
who are younger, wider, thinner, richer, and how they're doing
their non monogamy or their polyamory.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Well, and something another point that stood out for me
in your book, and I'm still early in it because
I like to savor, right, I like to listen and
pause and integrate and that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
But something that.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Stood out for me is the understanding that pre colonial
North America, like non monogamy was part of the structure
of it was part of the culture previous to colonialism.
The I'm sorry my words are working today, but the oppression,

(30:52):
shall we say, of patriarchy that colonialism brought, but previous
to that in North America, having the again commune systems
of support and love and you know, and nourishment, emotional
connection as a source of nourishment. And how that was
status quo before the imposition of colonialism that imposed this

(31:15):
hierarchy and this male dominated society upon it. So even
in North America, for those of us that are of
the land of North America, like our roots are pre
colonial roots are are not patriarchal monogamy, So understand, you know,
so I'm hearing you talk about how like in European history,
wealth and power, you know, non monogamy was tied to

(31:37):
wealth and power. But in you know, pre in other cultures,
so we call them indigenous cultures, like non monogamy was
just part of the social structure and wasn't dependent on
wealth or resources, which is part of how we live
to coexist.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
And from what I understand, a lot of First Nations
languages here in North America didn't have words to distinguish
monogamy or non monogamy. This concept of monogamy just wasn't
there culturally. And if we look to other cultures, like
you look through the levant and all the way through

(32:14):
South Asia, there's so many historical examples of polygamy or
polygyny like that anybody could take any number of spouses
or partners and they could have been formalized or they
could have been informalized. Right, and especially when you go
into South Asian Central Asia, you have these wonderful matriarchal

(32:37):
approaches to non monogamy and fraternal polyandralely polyandry and like
it's there are so many ways that humans will do
relationships and the only place that has said no monogamy
is the one and true way. Like that all comes

(32:58):
down to the Again, it's like the be European colonial
white supremacist, you know, all of that stuff. That's where
that comes from. Everywhere else in the world, people have
been perfectly happy to be open until they were told
you're not allowed to be.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Monogamy is a structure that has been imposed upon us culturally,
and at the same time it works for some folks.
So is monogamy the problem or is the type of
monogamy the problem? So for example, doctor Erickson and I
my husband, we met and we were you know, that
was the beginning of our relationship, was a polyamorous relationship
was awesome. It was one of the best relationships of

(33:44):
my life. We had so much fun, We all loved
each other.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
It was great.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
And then the primary I know this is also an
issue in polyamory, but that Chris and that other partner
were the primary. And then that primary relationship broke up,
and then you know, six months later, Chris and I
got together. And Chris and I are intentionally monogamous. So
it's something that we are choosing for now to meet
needs that we have for oh, where we're at personally,

(34:10):
but ten years from now, and we fully intend to
be together ten years from now.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
That it may look different.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Two years from now, it may look different, But monogamy
for us is something it's a conscious choice that we're
making to meet certain needs. So it's not a default,
it's not just a reactive thing. It's like we want
to choose. We're choosing to have a closed, closed relationship
so that we can meet certain needs, and when those
needs are met, we can look at opening it, opening
the relationship to meet other needs.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
Yeah, and I think what's beautiful like this intentional choosing
of monogamy right with that, that is what's powerful so
many people who like me, like I was, I talk
about this book. I was twenty one, twenty two, and
I got married because I thought, that's what you're supposed
to do. I didn't have this conceptualization that this thing

(34:59):
that was already stirring in me as a possibility was
actually something I could do. I was just like, no,
this is what I'm supposed to do. But to consciously
choose it is different from not having a choice, right,
There's agency in that. And I would say that by
some people's definition, are you monogamous? Right, Like you define

(35:22):
it as monogamy, but you emotionally you have dear friendships,
You bring other people into your life, you share your resources, right,
Like you're not hoarding everything, right, And I know that
about you, like I've stayed in your home when you

(35:43):
were still living up here. And that is counters the
nuclear family model, that counters the colonial model of monogamy.
The colonial model of monogamy says you have to prioritize
your romantic partner and ignore other people. They are there's
a distance that you keep from them, but you are

(36:04):
someone who allows other people to come into your heart.
That allows other people to come in and share your space, right,
and you're doing so in a conscious way, in a
relational way, and you still have your boundaries there, and
there's a part of that relational field that is still
sacred and special and exclusive for you and your husband, right,

(36:27):
But it's not that the whole relational field is like
dominated by that exclusivity.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
So that's interesting because honestly, Mallet never occurred to me
that in the worldview of monogamy, it means that you're
emotionally like you can't have friends, and you can't have connection,
and you can't have you can have love, right, you
can't have communal love, right. So I think in this
conversation what is clear is like there's different there's variations

(36:56):
on the theme of monogamy, and not all monogamy is
the same. So the atriarchal, white supremacist version of monogamy
is is its own very kind of sterile thing, you know,
the nuclear family unit, whereas not everybody's version of monogamy
is the same, like you know, you know, yeah, though
not every not everybody's version of monogamy is the same.

(37:16):
Like I've been in monogamous relationships and my partner's giving
another woman Ayoni massage, but I'm like, that's for healing.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
And for some people in a monogamous relationship, it's like, oh,
you're looking at pictures of someone on social media that
are sexy pictures. How dare you?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, that's and so again, so that's suffering.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Sorry, go on, Elena, that's okay, thank you.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I just wanted to add that that's one of the
aspects of your book that I really I mean, I
loved your book all around, but that's one of the
aspects that really resonated with my heart, especially at this
time in my life.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
Is just framing.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Polyamory or non monogamy beyond what is what are just
sexual relationships, right, and expanding our scope into our communities
in the way that we love other people. And I
just like very much sitting with the pain in my
heart around that that lack in my life as well,

(38:19):
because I I don't think it's okay to share this
part of it. I feel like, as a young person
going through life, I was very intentional about trying to
cultivate community and love and like shared family. And you know,
when I would break up with partners who I was
in love with, I didn't actually leave them I was.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Like, I love you.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
You're still a part of my life, Like I still
want to be a part of your life. Unless there
was some sort of like massive rift or rupture, they
would continue to be a part of me and a
part of my community. And as I've gotten older, I
have not been able to maintain that.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Much too.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
The reason mostly being are social structures.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
So those most of those partners were men, and so
as they married, were not really serious partnerships. I wasn't
really allowed to be friends with them anymore. Right, And
as you know, people had children as again as they
even my female friends, as they got married, like I
started getting pushed more and more and more into that

(39:26):
nuclear family by way of default from everyone else around me.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
Yeah. Yeah, And I've had similar challenges, you know that
there's and I think we noticed that as we get older,
because more and more people kind of get siloed off.
And it's interesting to be in these times where there
is a lot of hardship. I think we're experiencing hardship

(39:52):
that's a new kind of hardship, right, the economic challenges,
the political challenges that are happening, And one of the
things that I've observed is this tendency for people to
pull away and silo when they feel like they're under stress,
and I think there's something in there around like this

(40:13):
shame of like I've somehow personally failed because I'm struggling
to deal with layer and layer on layer of systemic oppression.
And so, you know, how do we then come into
connection again? Because it's connection that creates resilience. And I

(40:36):
say that my book is a social change manifesto. It's
just disguised as a self help book because where I
take it is like I want this idea of a
post monogamous world. We're not talking about monogamy or non monogamy.
We're talking about a world in which monogamy is no
longer the default. And what happens when it's no longer

(40:56):
the default. What happens when we're no longer trying to
hoard our love and affection from each other and we
feel safe enough and know ourselves enough to know the
boundaries of how we are sharing our love and what
we're available to share, which is going to be different
for everybody. But when we know what our capacity for

(41:17):
sharing is, what becomes possible is a lot more connection
and a lot more resilience as a result. And I
think that this is so important with what we're going
through in the world today. I mean, I think one
of the reasons so many people have been interested in
nonminogamy is we are seeking that deeper experience of connection.

(41:40):
We want an experience of attachment that isn't nuclear, family based,
that isn't dietic based. We want an experience of attachment
that goes back to village, that goes back to extended family.
And yeah, sex is a great way to cultivate attachment.
It's not the only way to cultivate attachment, but the

(42:02):
intimacy that we share can hold space for more attachment.
And I think it's important that we expand that idea
and go what It doesn't have to rely on our
sexuality or our intimacy, but it's also about just the
ways that we care and show up with compassion and empathy.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, and that piece right there is so important for
me in the conversation of polyamory, because so often polyamory
is just talked about sex with multiple people, and as
a view, as you and I all have spoken privately,
it's like people use polyamory and they mean polyfuckery. Right,
And what they really want to do is just fuck
a bunch of people. They don't actually want to love.

(42:40):
They just want to fuck.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
And that's cool if that's what you want to do, Like,
no shade for that.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
And for those folks who are actually looking for polyamory,
it means multiple loves. And so I may love love
the heck out of a lot of people, and that
doesn't mean that you have to put your penis in
my vigion or I have to put my mouth on
your volva, right, So like we can love each other
without the sexual exchange, but still be, you know, deeply

(43:05):
in love.

Speaker 4 (43:07):
And I think there is also a question of do
we know how to love? Do we even know what
love is?

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Because I think when we look at the way that
supremacy culture cuts us off from empathy, cuts us off
from our ventral vagal connection, cuts us off from like
real true relationality, oftentimes what we interpret as love is

(43:36):
more of I think it can be. Sometimes there's a
foreign response, there's an appeasement response coming up in ourselves.
We don't feel safe, and so we fake a feeling
of connection as a strategy for safety. And it's that like, well,
if I fake it till you make.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
It kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
And I think that in a world that is doesn't
often give people affection even down to the it's changed,
it's starting to change now, but like even down to
the way that infants are raised, like being taken away
from your parent and as soon as you're born, you know,
not being breastfed like the From a somatic perspective, the

(44:15):
connection that happens there is so important for our development
of empathy. And so if we grow up without enough
empathy in our environment, we don't know that we're not
connecting with it.

Speaker 5 (44:31):
Right.

Speaker 4 (44:31):
It's like it's like you never had something spicy and
you're like, I don't know that spice exists, and people
talk to you about spiciness and you think you know it,
and then you have like a real authentic Indian curry
and you're like, whoa, this is spicy. And so I think, yeah,
there's a lot of not really knowing what that deep

(44:53):
love is and what that experience is.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, because those channels for empathy have been amputated. Do
you to the way we're conditioned in western white Western culture,
like white supremacy culture. I know, folks don't like us
saying those words sometimes, but like it's a thing like
read about it, because it really is kind of the
key to everything that's fucking us up right now.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
It really truly is.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
And I always come back to, like white supremacy culture,
it wants us to be separated, right, And in the
in tema opens description, she talks about like it wants
white people to be separated from BIPOC. It wants BIPOC
to be separated from each other so to have conflict there,
and it wants white people to be separated from each other.

(45:35):
It wants separation. And so to count to that, we
have to look at how do we create connection, And
how we create connection is by cultivating more relationality.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
And cultivating our own capacity for empathy for ourselves and
for each other, which I've seen you you've been speaking
about speaking to online. That's like empathy is a secret sauce, right,
It's a secret sauce. So monogamy is nuanced and me
and does mean different things to different people. Non monogamy

(46:12):
is also nuanced and means different things people.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Right, So yeah, let's talk about.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Some of the toxic approaches to non monogamy, because that's
that's you know, those are those are the things that
have people like, oh, you're polyamorous, like really like wow.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
So it's either like I see it either glorified.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
As like, oh my god, all this great sex and
blah blah blah, or I see it vilified is like,
you know, these people are fucking crazy.

Speaker 4 (46:38):
So yeah, yeah, I think I mean you already named
the polyfuckery part of it and the approach that is
purely sex based, And for what it's worth, I think
it's totally fine to say I'm only looking for other

(46:59):
sexual needs to be satisfied here. I think it's important
to be clear that that doesn't include emotional availability. I
think it's important to like have for everyone to know
exactly what's available and what's not available, because then people
have the agency to make their own decisions and you know,

(47:20):
balance that. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. And I think for
some people, sexuality that doesn't include an emotional relationship can
be its own kind of healing.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
I absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
So, there's there's got to be space for that. But
where I think, you know, in all the different forms
of non monogamy, one of the things that kind of
will catch people up is catch people out is when
they are internalizing those monogamous scripts still so, and a
lot of these relate back to white supremacy, So like

(47:59):
the idea of primacy, and like the hierarchy, and there's
a lot of debate and polyamoral circles around hierarchy. And
the way that I find it most useful to talk
about is power. How is power held or shared? Are
we looking at systems of power over and under in

(48:20):
the ways that relationships are created so like primary versus secondary?
Or are we looking at how we create more equity
in the way that power is shared? And I think
that this is not a like one and done. This
is a constantly shifting thing because like I might have
I might have more power and privilege because I have

(48:42):
been doing this for a long time. Someone else may
have more power and privilege because they make more money
than I do. Right, these are not on the same metrics,
but it both create a power dynamic. And so we
have to go, Okay, what where do we find that
middle ground where there's equity and also spaciousness in how
we are experiencing power in the relationships. And so I

(49:05):
see that that power play out in the control that
sometimes comes up for people in the imposition of rules,
vetoing other people's partners, all of these kinds of things.
Another thing that often shows up is, you know, the
ways that we measure the success of a relationship. And

(49:28):
I think that there's kind of two sides of this.
I think for some people they're like, well, if I'm
not doing this as a lifelong relationship, then it's meaningless
and so treating somebody more callously. And on the flip side,
there's people who are like, no, I want this to
be a lifelong relationship. I want to keep like growing
my personal harem. And then you're just doing like multiple monogamy.

(49:53):
And it's like, okay, well what's that about. And I
think neither is a great solution. I think it's really
important that we find a way to measure the success
of our relationships outside of the ways that we measure
monogamous relationships. Right, it's not about how long are you
together for. It's about the connection and the quality that

(50:16):
you create together. Right, It's about being true to who
you are. And I love this idea of you know,
I talk about the relationship landscape and that you can
transpl into relationship within there, like you were saying, Elena,
like having these incredible relationships where you love somebody and
then wanting to transition into a space where you can

(50:36):
still love them and they still have other relationships and
not being able to write. But what if we can
allow relationships to shift and be like, Okay, we tried
growing this here in this part, but it turns out
the soil just wasn't right. Turns out it wasn't getting
the right light or nutrients. Let's move it over here
and see if it does better there. And I think

(50:57):
that in in some experiences of non monogamy, I see
people really struggle with that. I see people go back
into the old monogamous behaviors of like, oh, we broke up.
That's it, we can't ever talk again. I have to
block you on socials and like sometimes yeah, sometimes we
need to take clear space from access. But you know,

(51:19):
when there's still that deep affection, you know, and there's
still deep connection, to not be able to do that
feels really hard.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
So it's it's as you're speaking, it's like the the anchor,
the root of polyamory truly is the love. Right, It's
truly like polyamory many love. So it's truly the love
is the anchor, and how that love manifests within each
relationship is unique to that relationship. But having the openness

(51:53):
and the space to a love many but also you know,
maybe fully like sexually intimately love many more than one,
shall we say? Yeah yeah, but again, when we're talking
I guess ethical polyamory, the focus is the love and

(52:13):
and the and the honesty and the transparency of that
love and the intention to hold.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
Each other with care. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
And I mean that's the essence of all healthy relationships, right,
is how do we hold each other with care and
affection and and consideration.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
So it's I mean, polyamory doesn't seem like too much
different than just our basic humanity, right right.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
And again, like there are so many people who will
dabble in polyamory and non monogamy and end up going
you know what. That wasn't for me, But I learned
some really cool things about myself. I've got different tools
for relating to my partners in more conscious ways, and
I think that's important that we pay attention to that.

(53:08):
You know, there's a journey people have gone on when
they do that of unpacking a lot of the internalized
normativity stories and you don't have to be polyamorous to
do that exactly.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
I was going to say, that seems so critical is
unpacking the the you know, orientation that we have been
indoctrinated into. That is it was not we weren't it
was it's not doesn't work for our benefit and wasn't
intended for our benefit. Right, it wasn't intended for our benefits.
So examining that and then deconstructing that and keeping the

(53:44):
parts that may feel resonant or supportive, but not being
confined and yoked to an agenda that is the antithesis
of our humanity in many ways totally or or it
runs contrary to our basic human nature. Yeah, so along
those lines, let's talk about queerness and polyamory. So you know,

(54:07):
more anecdotes TMI from Davy's side. So, I mean that
was one of the things that made polyamory a really
obvious thing.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
Like, again, I was stripper in Detroit.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
I would bring my girlfriends home from the club and
my boyfriend would be there and we'd all have a
good time.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Right, that was just like it was normal.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
And I guess those were polyamer's relationships because those are
my sisters from another mister, and I love them and
we all had sex together and that was.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Just fucking normal. That was just a normal thing, right.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
And then later on in life, you know again being bisexual,
and to me, it's like, well, I need Yes I've
got a boyfriend, but I need a girlfriend too, Or
yes I got a girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
But I need some dick too, So.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
Relatable exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
So we're just gonna have to make this work because apples.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Are not oranges, and oranges are not apples, y'all.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
And yeah, and I think I think queerness is a
motivation for a lot of people to start exploring open
relationships and that and even that feeling of like there's
there's a kind of sex I want to have that
my partner is not available for, right, whether it's the
same gender or same anatomy or different, like there's I

(55:26):
think a lot of people have that come up at
some point. But what I think is really interesting, like
if we take the definition of queerness, right, the modern
definition of queerness is really around questioning the status quo, right,
it's going against the grain of status quo. And and

(55:47):
queerness does this with gender and with sexuality because the
status quo says, well, you're expected to be sis and
you're expected to you know, be only attracted to the
opposite gender, right, And so queerness throws that all out
and gets creative.

Speaker 5 (56:08):
Right.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
Queerness is being creative, being open, being curious, being exploratory,
and so like people ask like, well, oh, is polyamory
and orientation And I'm like, for some people they would
say yes. What I say is, well, polyamory is a

(56:29):
label that we give to one way of doing non monogamy.
There's lots of ways of doing non monogamy, but I
think that there must be a spectrum of fidelity and
that there's a queering of fidelity that happens within the
ways that we explore non monogamy, right, Just like what

(56:49):
we're talking about with like, how are you you know,
what does monogamy mean for you? How are you distributing power?
How are you conscious of the power dynamics in your relationships?
How are you conscious of the love affection and the
ways that that is shared in your wider landscape of relationships?
When we are going against the grain of what we've

(57:11):
been taught to do by culture, we are queering the
way that we do relationships, and so I don't think
that necessarily gives space for people to be like, oh,
I fuck around, so I'm queer. Like, I don't think
it's it would be okay to take on that labeling
necessarily if you don't have other queer identities. But I

(57:35):
think it's a useful lens to look at that process
through because when we go through that exploration of ourselves
around is my gender queer in some way? Is my
sexuality queer in some way? There is deep inquiry that
has to happen. There's a lot of challenging narratives that

(57:56):
have a lot of shaming built around them, right, and
we have to find into place to step into our
agency and our power against those narratives of shame. If
we want to be true to ourselves, and we need
support to do that. We benefit from community and from
peers and from elders who can show us this is

(58:18):
how you do this. You are okay, you are not broken,
that you have these desires. And so I think there
is there is a lot of space for us to
look at it as a queer way of relating.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
One that challenges the status quo, and challenges again are
unconscious cultural conditioning.

Speaker 5 (58:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:41):
Yeah, And I think there's ways that people do polyamory
that's not in the least bit queer, Right, Like, if
someone is being very cis and heteronormative about the way
they're doing their polyamory, if they're more interested in having
primary and secondary, like they've got this normative approach of
how they're doing it, kind of like the businessmen going

(59:02):
off on their lunch breaks approaches that that's not questioning
the status quo, that's replicating systems of power, that's replicating
a lot of the inherited models of how this is
permitted to happen within you know, Western supremacy, and so

(59:22):
that I would not say is a queer way of relating.
But I think when we're doing it from a more
open way of like how am I loving? How am
I showing up? You know, what does it mean to
question all these other pieces? Then yes, I think that's
a queer way of doing it.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
So on that topic, I'm going to bring up something
that came up earlier in the year, and that was
Aubrey Marcus and what was he he was saying that
radical monogamy.

Speaker 4 (59:51):
Because I've hit my glasses off for this because.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
So he's like, I racticing radical monogamy by inviting another person,
and it's y'all are fucked up if y'all don't recognize
that this is just me queering monogamy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Is excectly what he's saying. He's queering.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
No, not in the least bit. There is absolutely nothing
radical about what he's doing. All he's doing is reinventing polygamy.
And I mean, like I I'm very clear on my website,
I am not the coach for you if you follow

(01:00:32):
Aubrey Marcus. And I had to be clear and explicit
about that because there was a time where he had
like a polyamory manifesto, and so there were people who
are like, you know, I think there's at the surface
level it might seem like we might align on things
value wise.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
No, we do not.

Speaker 4 (01:00:55):
And I'm just not going to be an enjoyable coach
for someone to work with if they really align with
his values. And uh. And then he like flipped from
from doing this polyamory into being like, well, I have
a monogamous life partner. And I was like, that's that's interesting.
And I mean I looked at his polyamory manifesto and
I was like, this just sounds like really messy on monogamy.

(01:01:18):
And you know, when I've listened to the interview with
him talking about his radical monogamy, it's a monogamy of
three or whatever he's calling it, and I'm like it
when he's reflecting back on his experience as a polyamory,
he's calling it a revolving door of lovers, and I'm like,
you weren't loving these people. You were fucking these people,

(01:01:39):
but you weren't loving these people. And now you've discovered
that you can love more people, but you're still doing
this in a way that is so heteronormative and so
playing into like you're we still want to call it monogamy.
We still want to play into the nuclear family power

(01:02:00):
and privilege that we get presenting not just as a
couple now but as a threatle And I don't want
to deny that, Like, these people probably have a genuine
affection and love for each other. I think that's beautiful.
I think it's beautiful when people can find that. But
the way that they are then platforming themselves based on

(01:02:22):
that and calling it something radical that is totally totally
not radical. It pisses me off as you might be
able to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Tell, because it's a bastardization of the concept. Again, it's
just it's it's a bastardization of the concept purely for
positioning for profit, because they're experts in the field. So
it's it's it's gaslighting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
It's gaslighting. It's gaslighting, right, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
That's and coming back to the idea of radical, right,
to be radical is to work from the roots, and
those roots go deep. And you know, we think of
radical as being like, oh it's different, right that that's
the kind of modern understanding of radical. So he's saying, oh,

(01:03:13):
it's a different kind of monogamy, and I'm like, no,
you're you're still you are not actually transforming anything here.
You're also not creating anything new. This is how people
were exploring polyamory in like the sixties and seventies, right,
This goes back to like the the Raven Hearts and
like you know who coined the term polyamory. Like it's

(01:03:38):
they're just doing this multiple monogamy, multiple relationship escalators together
and if they found that like perfect triad dynamic, Like again,
I'm so happy for them if that's working for them,
and everybody's down. But the yeah, the the platforming of it, yes,
as being something new, special, and I'm like this, this

(01:04:02):
has been around for a long time, that eat.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
And something that people should aspire to. And again it
strikes me that I know, I know, like next to
nothing about dude. He like came on my radar because
of this, you know, people were asking me about my
thoughts of this interview he did.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
But again, looking at.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
In terms of like the modeling, I don't know what
his nationality is, but he's fairly white, presenting wealthy la
you know, I mean, header obviously heterosexual. So it's it's
it taps into all the power structures and he's you know,
being presented as a model for people to aspire to. Meanwhile,

(01:04:38):
there's no conversation about wealth, there's no conversation about privileges,
there's no conversation about social privileges, like how do you
it's not attainable for every dude to just have two
women or every woman and I just have two Like
it's again it's it's smoking mirrors is the word that

(01:04:59):
comes to smoking mirror and you know, glamour, glamour being
presented as as something radical that folks should aspire to again,
all for marketing and all so that they can sell
you the next health supplement essentially, right, So so yeah,
so we're just trying to sell you Mel's book today
and you won't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Be disappointed.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
If you need a supplement feature mind nurture Spirit, especially
the nurture Spirit by listening to Mel's gorgeous tones in
your ear via audible. Highly recommend, highly recommend that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
So, Mel, where can people buy your book? This is
like a publisher. You got like a publisher, you got
a book deal and everything. This is amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
You you can buy the book anywhere you normally purchase books.
So so it's it's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
I'll hold my copy up double vision.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
So it's published by Northic Books and they're wonderful. They're
a non for profit publisher and they have specialized in
doing work aroundsmatics, healing, anti oppression work, so all of
their catalog is just like amazing. So it's beautiful to
be part of that catalog. And they're distributed by Penguin Random.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
House, so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
Anywhere that you get your books from, you can if
they don't carry it and stock, they can order it
in for you. And same with audiobooks Audible or libro
FM or you know wherever else you get your audiobooks
from or your ebooks from, and yeah, yeah, it's available
available around the world.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
Beautiful. Highly recommend.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
So there are so many talking points that we didn't
get to today but are included in the book. So
again highly recommend that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
You listen or read that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Just I mean for anyone who's interested in any to me,
any aspect of sexology, because sexology is about how relationships,
whether it's our sexual relationship with ourselves or sexual relationship
with other people, and then all the other types of
relationships that revolve around sexual relationships because we're influenced by everything,
everything that we experience.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
So go ahead and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Get radical radical relating in your website Radical.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Relating dot ca.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Right, yeah, correct, beautiful, And then find mel on Instagram
and may love your posts.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Love your posts on Instagram. They're like little daily doses
of like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Medicine, yes, but more like inspiration, but also like like
brain and tunement, like I find that with like I
really hate social media, but when I do find myself
on social media the post that I like, it's like
they open little doorways in my mind and that's what
I find. They're little touchstones, so very much appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
So yay, all right, my friends, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
For joining us now, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Give you such an honor, such an honor, and thank
you everyone for listening and invite you to again to
please like and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. So
if you're listening to us on iTunes, please go ahead
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(01:08:09):
on YouTube. Want to keep saying that we are shadow banded,
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those videos and you can find out more about our
work at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com. And I can't
remember anything else I'm supposed to say. When am I
forgetting Elena.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
We have a program opening soon uh hostic Sexology Certification,
so check that out too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
You will be hearing the commercial in this episode. You
will have heard the commercial in this episode already, so
go to Listic Sexology into New dot com to learn more.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
All right, thanks friends, we'll see you next week. We
appreciate you. Bye, Bye.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
You've been listening to sex is Medicine, your number one
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Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
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Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Com and send us your questions please.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
At Questions at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com. Thank you
so much for listening to sex is Medicine