May 14, 2019 • 36 mins
In this episode we talk to Dr. Emma Vossen, award winning public speaker and a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at York University with a PhD from the University of Waterloo. Her research looks at the myriad of different ways marginalized people have difficulty accessing gameplay and games culture both historically and in the present. She is the co-author and co-editor of the anthology Feminism in Play.
Check out Emma online at http://emmavossen.com or on Twitter @emmahvossen
Check out Emma online at http://emmavossen.com or on Twitter @emmahvossen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello Nasties, and welcome to shewho persisted the Nasty Podcast. I am
your host, Elizabeth, and todaywe have an interview with doctor Emma Vawson.
Emma is an award winning public speakerand a postdoctoral research fellow at York
Universe with a PhD from the Universityof Waterloo. Her research looks at the
(00:22):
myriad of ways that marginalized people havedifficulty accessing gameplay and games culture, both
historically and in the present. She'sthe co author and co editor of the
anthology Feminism in Play, which looksat feminist approaches to gameplay. Our interview
looks at the way women and womenidentifying people are marginalized in game society.
(00:50):
We talk a little bit about incells, a little bit about gamer Gate,
and a lot about what we cando to make games a safer place
for marginalized people. And we hopeyou enjoyed the interview. She was warm,
(01:19):
She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted, Emma, can
you introduce yourself to us and tellus your pronouns? Yeah, I'm doctor
Emma Austin and I use she herpronouns great, and so I want to
I wanted to have you on theshow because your research is so interesting,
(01:42):
particularly in light of a lot ofthe discussions that go on around women in
gaming and gamer culture, which mayor may not have some kind of intersections
with in cell culture. And wecan kind of talk about all of that.
But before we get started talking aboutyour research, I want our audience
to know your Canadian So what's yourperspective on the dumpster fire that is US
politics right now? Um? Like, I I mean, I guess,
(02:07):
on the one hand, I shouldsay that, like my most red medium
piece is an essay about how liketo my fellow Canadians about how they all
need to like stop shitting on Americansbecause like we're not much better. Oh
yeah, it's there's a lot ofwhen you live in Canada, there's a
(02:30):
lot of like smugness around US politics. We think of Canadians as being like
real friendly. Yeah now that's bullshit. I mean, like I like to
think I'm an extremely friendly person.Um, but there is like I think
there's there's a there's just a realsmugness around Like I remember, you know
(02:50):
what everything was happening. There wasthis sort of idea that oh, like
well this would never happen to usbecause we're so much better than that,
and uh, you know, allof that stuff would which is ridiculous because
like, as a I mean asa continent, we share the same culture,
we share the same cultural values inmy opinion, especially you know,
in the age of the Internet.So I think I should put that upfront
(03:13):
that like, I don't want tobe like the smug Canadian in any way.
But at the same time, Iguess it's from my research perspective.
It's been really fascinating, you know, because I started doing this sort of
research about games culture in you know, like two eleven, twenty twelve,
and it was really amazing to watchthe way amazing as in horrible to watch
(03:38):
the ways in which American politics startedto sort of like reflect the norms of
games culture that I was studying.You know, a lot of people,
you know, now people will say, like, oh, this debate about
like political correctness, this is likeone of the foremost debates of our time.
And it's so weird to me whenlike I saw that whole debate play
out in games culture and everyone sortof made fun of it and you thought
(04:00):
it was over, and then itbecame like the sort of forefront of the
US election. You know, thefirst time I heard someone say the words
social justice warrior on TV, Iliterally thought I was going to pass out
because I was like, this can'tbe happening, Like this couldnot be real.
And you know, I think so, I guess I think my perspective
(04:23):
is very interesting because I was oneof the only Canadians I know who was
like, Trump is going to getelected. You know, the night that
Trump got elected, I gave twolectures on sort of like the connection between
games culture and cultural politics at large, and in both those lectures, I
was like, you know, braceyourself, Trump is going to get elected
(04:45):
tonight, and even all the studentswere like, ha ha, I can't
possibly happen. Yeah exactly, Ithappened. Yeah. Yeah. So I
guess that's sort of like my situatedperspective is this almost like one of the
things I talk about a lot inthe conclusion of my dissertation is almost having
(05:06):
like like a weird survivor's guilt orsomething that I think is something that Zoe
Quinn talks about in her book quitea bit too, where you know,
everything that happened during Gamergate, wewere so vocal about like, oh god,
this is like a really big problem. This isn't about games, this
isn't just games, and then tosort of sort of like watch the same
(05:26):
conversations play out on like a nationallevel, is it's like weirdly, I
don't know, retraumatizing or something.Yikes. Yeah, it's it's not great
from our perspective either. So yeah, I'll just yeah, I mean,
so let's talk about your research abit. I mean, you've mentioned it,
and this is a superloaded question,so but tell us about your research,
(05:48):
give us like the elevator pitch ofyour research. Yeah, so,
I guess, in the most generalway possible, my research looks at games
culture. It looks at issues ofdiversity, inclusion, and belonging within games
culture, and it looks at howthose issues affect people with different identities.
(06:09):
So how your experience of games cultureand the norms that take place within that
specific culture are going to affect youdifferently if you are, you know,
a woman, or if you're atrans or if you're a person of color,
if you're queer, that sort ofthing. I guess that's that's the
elevator pitch version. Yeah, No, that's perfect so I think a lot
(06:30):
of times we have a tendency tothink that in these virtual spaces, you
can create an identity for yourself andyou can be whomever you want. And
so you know, if I wantto have a male as a as a
you know, sisgendered woman, ifI want to have a male character that
I'm playing like in game, doesthat Does that change how people interact with
(06:54):
me in game then, because theydon't know whether I'm a woman or a
man. Yeah, it's it definitelyhen you know, if we're thinking about
multiplayer gaming, I know, likea lot a lot of women who play
using male avatars because you know,there's this sort of idea that maybe you'll
get more more not even like necessarilyyou'll get more respect, but like maybe
(07:15):
you just won't be noticed if youaren't on voice chat. I know that
it was a huge thing when I, like, you know, back in
the day, when I was playinglike old school World of Warcraft, I
played as a female character. Andit's interesting because at that time, it
was just so assumed that there wasno way that other players were female.
That when I would be talking tosomeone and I would say that I was
(07:38):
a female, they are a woman. They would be like, I can't
believe I just said a female.That was that was a slip. When
people find out I was a woman, they would just be like, well,
no, prove it, like Idon't believe you, like, I
mean, there's no exactly did theywant you to prove it over voice chat?
Like did they want you to like, I mean, how does I
(08:01):
mean? Don't get me wrong.I definitely would get the like, well
show me your tits then, yeah, or like show me your tits for
gold was like at the time,like a big thing. I don't think
I don't think that's a real thinganymore. But this was, you know,
like ten years ago or more,I should say. But you know,
sometimes I would get the question likeare you a girl in real life?
(08:24):
You know? Just girl? Irlwas how it was often phrased.
And I started to lie honestly,Like at first I would tell the truth
because I would be like, yeah, I'm a girl like in your fings.
But then it's like it stops beingworth it. It's it's easier to
just lie. And you know nowlike as an adult, when I play
multiplayer games, it's easier to justplay without a headset on and if there's
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games that absolutely you have to weara headset, like I just I just
don't play them because it's just addinga sort of a secondary complication to what
I really want to do, whichis just like relax and play games in
peace. Sure sure, so,I mean and this kind of intersects with
the gamer Gate issue too, Yeah, the like harassment, like as of
(09:11):
I almost did it too, femalegamer as a woman playing games as part
of gamer culture, as part ofcomic culture, as part of a lot
of like genre culture generally, therehave been some real issues for women.
Yeah, And I think that's thething is there is this sort of it's
a it's an overlap, right,So, like it starts with this assumption,
these assumptions that one, you know, if you're playing games, you
(09:37):
probably aren't a woman or a girl. If you are playing if you are
a girl or woman you're playing games, there must be something wrong with you,
like there must be a reason whyyou do this. Third, a
sort of like biological inferiority assumption,like you physically cannot or physically and mentally
cannot be as good at games assomeone who's old. Hold on a second,
(10:00):
these are video games, yeah,Like you're sitting the controller on like
on a couch in a chair.Yeah. Yeah, so you like your
thumbs don't and fingers don't have likethe physical dexterity to be good at them.
Yeah. I think it comes downto to sort of assumption of dexterity.
I mean there's even weird discourse andgames culture about race and dexterity.
Like people will will insist that,you know, people people who are like
(10:28):
people who are of certain races havebetter dexterity when playing games, which obviously
is this a whole other loaded issue, But I think the thing is there
are less women in professional gaming,but it is for social and cultural reasons.
It's it's not because, um,they're not as good at it,
Yeah, exactly. But you know, unfortunately a lot of people still still
(10:52):
assume it, assume that. SoI guess that those assumptions are sort of
the base of all other harassment thatyou know, you may encounter in game
or on Twitter. You know.I think there was like a some tweets
that were going around yesterday where therewas some guy who was just like doing
a really loud screaming like this ismy hobby and yes, I keep my
(11:13):
hobby and I'll tell you to getout if I want to, because it's
it's mine and I need to protectit and this whole thing. And like
the woman who was yelling at justresponded and was like, dude, like
you were born in nineteen ninety six, Like I literally have playing video games
for like ten years, longer thanyou've been a lie. Sure, sure,
I mean my husband he's been playingD and D. I mean a
(11:33):
different type of games, but stillgamer culture, and they have the same
issues as video game culture, andhe's been playing it since like the late
seventies. And you know, ifthere were women who were interested in like
being in his gamer group, hewas totally welcome of them. I mean,
I think that there were some youknow, there were some cultural things
(11:56):
of like the anti D and Dmovement and all of that that left like
made a lot of people not interestedin D and D generally, and like
the fact that people who played Dand D are often like culturally stigmatized anyway.
But but yeah, I mean Ithink, you know, I'm a
gen xer, and so for meto hear like either a millennial or a
gen Z or whatever say like youcan't be part of this. It's like,
(12:20):
oh, come, like this ismy thing, Like oh really,
yeah, exactly, and like obviously, like I'm a fan of like people
like I don't care obviously if somebodyhas no qualifications, like if you've never
played a video game before, I'mnot gonna be like, you've never played
a video game before. But it'sreally exhausting when people are trying to like
exclude you from a culture you've beenpart of for so much longer than they
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have. You know, It's it'sjust it's it's so exhausting, you know.
And I think about this a lotbecause I teach, and you know,
a lot of my students like theway they talk about games, Like
they talk about games like the PStwo is old, you know, and
like when I tell them the firstgame I ever played it was, you
know, on the Commodore sixty four, they're just like what, like,
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and I think, so it's nota sixty four staying four, Like,
it's just it's it's beyond their perception. So like, I guess it's just
to know exactly like where those kidsare at. Because I teach games to
people who are the same age,I shouldn't say kids they're like nineteen twenty.
But you sound like an old lady. Yeah, not to be agist,
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but yeah, but yeah, it'sit's it's really frustrating when you like,
you know exactly from teaching, likewhat mindset they're coming from, And
it's just that this idea that like, oh, you've just decided that you
like video games or D and Dor whatever because it's cool. Now,
it's it's just exhausting. I hadto suffer to make it cool exactly.
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But but I think that I thinkthat you bring up an interesting point.
But both in your research and likejust this conversation that we've been having,
and I think that you know,I talked to a historian about women and
computing and this was a similar thing. You know, we don't see as
many women in like game or culturebecause it's maybe not a welcoming environment,
not that they aren't interested in goinginto those fields. And so one of
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the things that your research really bringsto light is this issue of exclusion,
whether it's possible to create spaces ofinclusion, particularly in gaming, and you
know, I think we see thistranslating to you know, other spaces academia.
We see this in computing, inengineering instan fields generally, but you
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know, a lot of different places. So we're what do you think maybe
the biggest impact of your research couldbe to this idea of creating spaces of
inclusion. Yeah. That's a reallygood question and very difficult to answer succinctually.
So I guess, like one ofthe things I've found in my research
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is that, you know, Ihave an entire chapter of my dissertation where
I talk about attending and running gamingevents for women, women and non binary
people, and attending gaming events forwomen and non binary people. And it's
interesting because when we first like decidedto do this back in like two thousand
(15:15):
and eleven, twenty twelve, twentythirteen ish, we were met with like
such a massive backlash that this waslike such a horrible, horrible, horrible
thing to do that at first wedidn't do it. We ran like feminist
gaming events that also that were likeopen to anyone, and it was a
disaster. Oh wow, it was. We like started out the events with
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you know, being like, youknow, don't do this, don't do
that, like anti harassment, allthese sorts of things, and like,
I don't. I guess we thoughtwe didn't expect people to behave on their
own, but we expected that ifwe said don't do this list of things,
then people would not do that listof things. But I guess the
thing is is that one of thethings we discovered is that with sort of
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like male quote unquote allies, theyare so convinced that they are like already
feminists, like, oh, I'malready on board with this, that they
don't want to interrogate their own behaviorsat all. Sure, So we would
literally be like, don't do this, and then they would just like turn
around and do it. And afterlike our second event, I like ended
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up having like a panic attack inthe bathroom and was like, yeah,
no, I'm never doing this everagain. Like I'm never running an event
that's like open to like having straightsis white men at it ever again.
Because it was just impossible to likepolice and not to say it is impossible,
because lots of people do it,but it was impossible for me to
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police that sort of space. Ifound it exhausting, And I think one
of the things I found was thatpart of the reason why it was so
difficult was that I didn't feel includedin my own space. Oh God,
like I was the one who createdthat space, but I was still and
these were events where like you'd sitdown and you play games, and I
was still terrified to sit down andplay games. And I was still afraid
(17:07):
of the guy who was confidently tellingsome bullshit racist story in the corner.
You know, I was still Iwas still so afraid, even in this
space that I'd created, like essentiallyfor myself and for other people like me.
Well, it just it takes.It sucks all the air out of
the room, right, Like Imean, you're trying to do something and
then like it just it takes alleven though you're trying to be a badass
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like bitch boss bitch like and tellpeople like this is what we're doing and
we're creating this like safe space,and like this is how and this is
why we need this safe space becauseof this, and please don't do the
xyz like okay, but I'm justgonna do x y Z because HI like
mail SI white mail, privilege andpatriarchy, Like yeah, that's really hard.
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Yeah, And I think so ifthere's one thing I sort of discovered
through all of that, it wasthat I can't expect other people to feel
comfortable in a space I don't evenfeel comfortable in it, and it was
sort of trying to like go backon that, and later on I did
eventually find like time and place torun, you know, run events essentially
for people who feel marginalized by gamesculture and who would feel scared to attend
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a normal gaming event. And Ido think those events were really empowering,
you know, Like we held oneevent where we had like a Smash one
oh one like teach people how toplay Smash, and we had like a
female teacher who came in and waslike a Smash expert, and it was
really interesting to see everyone in thegroup going from I'm fucking terrified of this
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game. I have so many horribleexperiences playing this game, Like I'm so
scared right now to like literally winning. You know, I think that we
couldn't fix the overall problem, butwhat we could do is we could offer
some positive experiences playing games to counteractall the negative experiences that people came into
our space with. That's I mean, that's amazing, and that shows why
(18:57):
those spaces are necessary ary, right, I mean, you know, yeah,
this whole like conversation about oh yousnowflakes needing your safe spaces and you
can't handle like real life. Reallife doesn't have safe spaces. Well,
real life wouldn't have to have safespaces if people could agree not to be
jackwads and like not be microaggressive ormacroaggressive. Like I don't think people understand
(19:21):
that, like some of their microaggressionsaren't actually microaggressions, they're macroaggressions, like
they are they are literally terrible racist, sexist, misogynist things. Well,
and even if it is a microaggression, if it's the ten thousandth time you've
heard it, yeah, like itcould be the one time that it just
completely like knocks you off your path, Like I know, for me,
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one of the things I talk about, one of the like sort of things
that happened to me that I talkedabout my dissertation is that I went to
like a gaming event when I wasin my first year of the PhD.
Being like there wasn't even event,it was just like a casual thing like
people sitting around playing games, andI was like, oh, well these
are I was the only woman there. It was all like white dudes,
(20:02):
and I was like, oh,it's okay because you know, these are
guys who were like grad students,so like doing their PhDs, Like they'll
be like civilized, they're woke,They're fine. Yeah, which was a
stupid thing for me to assume.And I was like so terrified to play
this game and like sit down andplay. And within like a couple of
minutes of me sitting down, Imade some comment about like, oh,
(20:23):
don't be afraid of me, likeI'm not going to kill you. We're
on the same team, and someguy in the back went typical game or
girl. Like it was just likebasically like it was like bad that I
wasn't going to kill my own teammatesbecause like that like indicated something about my
femininity. And like he definitely doesn'tremember saying that. I've talked to my
guy friends who were there. Theydon't remember him saying it, no,
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because it's so commonplace that it doesn'tlike even register to them that they're saying
it. Yeah, Like they alllaughed, they were just like, oh,
it's just a joke. But forme, it was just like the
ten thousandth time I'd heard something likethat, and I was like, well,
okay, I finished the game.I passed control off to someone else.
I left and I went, I'mnever playing games with this group of
guys again, And I never did. You know, it's not your job
to teach them how to be alike non jack wide gamer, of course,
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but it's also like, you know, they need to take responsibility for
their actions. It could you know, it could have been a really great
place for you to play, andlike really great dudes for you to play
with, and and and all ofthat, and they probably don't understand that,
like that's what they did, andthey think, Oh, you're just
being too sensitive, or you're justbeing hysterical, or you're just being a
rational again, typical typical lady,typical gamer girl. Yeah, do you
(21:36):
find so gamer girl is like ayou know thing, it's a like concept
just like queenbies in role playing gamingand stuff like that. Do you kind
of own the or try to ownor reclaim the term gamer girl or do
you have you tried to or isthere a different term that like women who
game try to call themselves. Yeah, I mean this is such like as
(21:57):
such a good question, and Ihave such a long history of sort of
like navigating my identity with that.I mean, when I was in high
school and in university, I definitelytried to be like, yeah, you
know, screw you, I'm agirl gamer, like this is this is
like I tried to be like reallyin your face about it, essentially,
(22:19):
and then I kind of had somany negative experiences that I just sort of
tried to cover it up for awhile. Like I never stopped playing games,
I just like stop wearing games Tshirts and stop telling people I wore
games because it just seemed to likeopen me up to criticism and harassment.
And then around the time I startteaching again, even though now the word
gamer kind of makes me cringe andI don't really want to use it to
(22:41):
describe myself, even though like Idefinitely meet any like I meet a lot
of people's criteria. I'm sure Idon't want to say anybody, because obviously
there's a lot of people who don'tthink I'm a gamer because I'm a feminist
or whatever. But I did startusing it again in the classroom weirdly enough,
because I thought that it was reallyimportant for my students to realize that,
(23:03):
you know, someone like me isa feminist. Is there there feminist
teacher who also considers themselves a gamerand also plays a lot of video games,
And so I guess the world gamerhas become like a teaching tool to
me. But like in like asocial like in a social setting, I
would like never be like I'm agamer because it's just it's almost like ironic
(23:27):
now, like the way people usethe term gamer like it's like a big
joke, essentially interesting. Well,and like, so is there. I've
been talking a lot about language withpeople recently, and specifically how feminist,
feminized terms are seen as bad,like playing like a girl or whatever.
(23:47):
Is are there like a list ofattributes of what a gamer girl is that
are all basically derogatory. Yeah,I mean it's interesting. I'm just asking
because I don't know. No,No, it's no, it's it's it's
interesting because I mean I've definitely beencalled like gamor girl or girl gamer as
an insult like many times in mylife, like no doubt. I mean
also I've heard people call me thatin like a what they thought was like
(24:11):
a positive way. One thing Italked about in my research is how like
the problem with adopting like a gameor girl identity is it's heavily policed within
games culture. So essentially within gamesculture, they've said like, okay,
well, women are welcome as longas they adopt X list of behaviors,
and in my opinion, the numberone thing on that list would be devout,
Like you have to you have todenounce feminism, like you can't be
(24:34):
a feminist. So interesting, yeah, and so like growing up and probably
until it probably took me until Iwas It's weird because I'm a professional feminist
now, but I was probably twentyfour twenty five the first time I called
myself a feminist, and like,there were times in my life where I
would have considered myself anti feminist,which I think is part of the reason
why I'm so fascinated by anti feministtake groups. And I mean it was
(24:56):
in part because I had to choose, Like I had to choose between being
a feminist and being a game andgames meant so much to me in my
youth, Like I just literally couldn'tgive them up, you know. Instead,
I adopted sort of a strict setof behaviors that Okay, well,
I have this group of guy friendswho play games. If I want them
to keep me around, I can'tever call them on all their sex to
(25:17):
shit they do, Like I haveto let them get away with every sexist
thing they do. I have tolet them, you know, sexually her
ass me, joke about how theywant to have sex with me, Like
I have to joke about my boobs, like a joke about my body.
Like I have to let all thatgo because that's the only way I'm allowed.
Like I'm barely allowed to be inthis group. Like I was allowed
to be in the same room asthem, but like I wasn't allowed to
play D and D with them,you know, Like I could play say
(25:40):
smash with them, but I wouldhave to put up with like being braided
about how shit I was at it. It was, you know, this
very interesting like liminal space you occupywhere it's like, Okay, you're like
allowed to hang out with us,but you're not allowed to be one of
us. Yeah. I play fantasyfootball with a bunch of friends of mine
from high school, and somehow that'slike okay. I mean I'm definitely like
(26:00):
the only woman in that group.But a few years ago, you know,
the guys have always kind of pickedon one another, and it got
real abusive at one point, andI was just I called them all out
on it. I was like,you, guys, you need to cut
this shit out, like just stop. This is and it wasn't just toward
me. I mean some of it. I once I called them out on
it, guess it became much moreabout me. But it was just bad.
(26:23):
And so you know, they usethe excuse like, oh, you're
just one of the guys, likewe're picking on you, like we pick
on them. But like, thereason that it is so awful is because
the way that they pick on oneanother is by like picking on the thing
that makes them like weakest. Andthe thing that makes you the weakest is
that you're a woman. And thenso like let's pick on you for being
a woman, Like that's what makesyou weak and bad. Yeah, and
(26:45):
that's why, Like essentially the argument, like the argument they brought up is
the same argument people will make aboutgames culture. They're like, well,
if you want to play games,if you like hate the people trash talk,
well, like you know, trashshock, that's just like part of
the game or whatever. But thething is is that, like women are
not subjected to the same trash talkthat men. You know, I do
believe that there are such a thingas like consensual trash talk between groups of
(27:07):
people. But I don't like,but when you are trash talk to as
a woman, it's about the factthat you're a woman, or you know,
if he's always about being a woman. Yeah, exactly. And like
one of my colleague, you know, doctor Coshona Gray, in her work,
you know, she talks about herexperiences playing on Xbox Alive, and
(27:29):
you know, people will like pickup like they'll like vocally profile her,
to pick up on the fact thatshe's a black woman, and then it
becomes about not just the fact thatshe's a woman. It becomes about the
fact that she's a black woman.And like, I'm not even gonna say
any of the horrendous things that she'swritten about people saying to her. But
you know it's that well, Iwill say, though, at least they're
intersectional in their like abusive, right, I mean, yeah, it's that's
(27:55):
something I suppose. I mean,it's the same. Yeah, like I've
heard, like I've heard just likeI've heard even you know, like qure
dudes talk about how like they'll they'llfeel vocally profiled if they play games online,
Like, oh, will people beable to like tell I'm gay by
my voice and like will they usethat against me? And it's just like
(28:15):
so that's the thing is it's liketrash talk. Like people want to act
like it's this like like great equalizer, but it's not a great equalizer if
you know, you are like usingit to be a bigot. What it's
crazy talk. So we're we're kindof getting to the end of our conversation.
But but I want to ask youabout something that I saw on Twitter
(28:37):
that you posted recently, and thatis the gamer dress. So you mentioned
like you have t shirts that areabout specific games and stuff like that,
and I understand that, like gamingcompanies are really trying to like increase their
marketing to women in order to bemore inclusive. How's that working out?
Uh? Yeah, So it's interesting. If anyone wants to read the essay,
(29:00):
you can find it on medium.I'm sure it's the only essay about
the gamer dress. Uh yeah,So in case you haven't seen anything about
on Twitter. Essentially, it isa dress that was designed by a company
and the people who designed it wewere all male, and it was like
presented. It's not just that itwas a dress, it was presented with
(29:22):
this tweet that was like, hellofemale gamers us if anybody says female whatever,
I'm so tired of it, Likewe have we have something for you.
And like the worst part about thewhole thing is that this dress that
they had created, which like islike a tight, very tight, very
short dress that has a zipper thatyou can undo to show your cleavage.
(29:45):
Oh stop yeah, um, Likethe worst thing about it is that,
like they say in the tweet,you know, like, oh, it's
like so unfair how women are treatedin games, and we wanted to do
something for them, and so likethat was sort of the thing that really
sent it over the top, isit? You know what? They probably
could have posted this dress on theirwebsite, and I'm sure some people with
(30:07):
like questionable aesthetic taste would have boughtthis dress, like it's it's ugly,
but like the dress itself is likenot even so much. What's so offensive.
What's so offensive is that they presentedit as like a positive thing for
female gamers who are like constantly dealingwith sexual harassment and sexual assault in gaming
(30:27):
communities. And so it's basically likea sexy like a halloween costume, like
gamer hallow, a female gamer halloweencostume like that, let's be as offensive
as possible, like sexy female gamerHalloween costume. Yeah, And like one
of the things I talked about inmy essay is that essentially, like because
as famers, we've had to likeadopt these sort of survival techniques to be
(30:49):
accepted within games culture. A survivaltechnique is to just be hot. Like
the hotter you are, that's oneway to do it. The hotter you
are, the nicer gamer dudes aregoing to be with to you because they
want to sleep with you. Andit it does not solve your problems,
Like I talk in the essay abouthow that went for me in my twenties
(31:10):
when I was like young and attractiveand having to deal with horrible people wanting
to date me because I was agamer. So like it's not a solution,
but like it is a survival techniqueto be like I'm gonna put on
this tight dress and I'm gonna,you know, look really nice, and
then maybe maybe then they'll be nicerto me. Well, and then you
flirt with them. And then whenthen you flirt with them to try and
(31:33):
be nice, well, they pickup on you and you flirt with them
to try and be nice because we'rein spaces a public space where like it's
not acceptable to just tell someone togo screw themselves, like you're not interested,
but but you're wearing the dress.So then when you when you turn
them down, eventually they call youa slot and they pull this whole like
insale bullshit where they're like, youknow, you're the one that's that's at
fault, like all of these feministsand you and you shouldn't have worn that
(31:56):
dress and blah blah blah. IfI want to wear a sexy dress,
I should be to wear a sexydress. But like it's not it's not
for you. It's because like Ihave to be able to fit into a
specific situation. Yeah, no,one hundred percent. Like I think that's
the thing is like I am abig fan of dresses, and like I'm
I'm like a very big fan ofyou know, I'm gonna wear like revealing
(32:17):
clothing whether you like it or not. But the dress isn't either of those
things. It's essentially I guess theway I put in my essay was like
we've surpassed the this is not foryou part of games culture and we've reached
there. Here you go this thingthat I like, this is for you,
so essentially like, yeah, youcan be part of this space if
(32:37):
you put on this sort of likegaming uniform that makes you better for me
to look at. And it wasonly made like more ironic that a couple
days after that, the like allfemale space walk got canceled because they didn't
have enough space suits to fit women. Yeah, and there was that Onion
article that was like, oh,the new space dress. Oh god,
(32:57):
yeah exactly, Like well, it'slike every every character in any game of
like women, it's like, oh, well, like I'm gonna wear like
a chain mail bra and like youknow, something that's really revealing and that's
going to protect me, Like that'sgoing to be really great armor for me.
Yeah, no exactly. And thenlike I think one of the things
I talk about is how essentially,like I think this comes back to why
(33:21):
you know, games culture and youknow, maybe even culture at large is
so hostile to this concept of likethe social justice warrior, who is this
person like myself who's like part ofgames but is not you know, changing
their appearance or changing there the waythey act or changing the way they talk
to make gamers happy and it's infuriatingto them, you know, And like
(33:45):
there's this sort of like stereotype ofthe social justice warrior as someone who's like
too fat and their hair is toobright, and they talk too loud,
and their clothes are too exuberant,and you know, they don't even play
games. And you know, Ithink that that that figure. It's the
same thing of like a feminist,like you know, they're they're at like
anti sex, anti fun, antieverything like good in the world, Like,
(34:07):
no, we just want you tonot be jackasses to women, and
like we want to like break downstructural inequality. Yeah, no, one
hundred percent exactly. And I thinkthat, but it's just it's so I
always come back to this, butit's this idea that like when you are
so so so use, so accustomedto privilege, any sort of attempt at
(34:30):
equality is going to feel like oppressionto you. And I think that that's
what we're seeing, like not justin game spaces, but in North American
culture at large, that's what we'reseeing in politics at large. You know,
like any attempt at equality is seenas like oppression against the white man.
And that's absolutely bullshit. I totallytotally agree with you. Oh my
(34:53):
gosh, I wish we could talkforever about all of this. But where
can people find you online? Yeah? I actually have a brand new website
www dot e M M A voss n dot com And if you can't
remember that, you can find meon Twitter under my name and you can
(35:16):
DM me on there, and there'salso a contact form on my website.
Awesome. Thank you so so muchfor talking to me today and fighting the
good fight against gamer culture that's exclusionaryof women and marginalized groups. We can
only do so much, but hopefullyeverything that you're doing and everything that you're
(35:38):
writing and bringing it to the surfaceis helping. I hope. So thank
you for listening to She Who Persistedthe Nasty Podcast. If you want to
reach out to us on social media, you can reach us on our Facebook
page She Who Persisted the Nasty Podcast, the Facebook gushion group per Sisters,
(36:01):
the She Who Persisted group on Instagramat She Who Persisted on Twitter, She
Persisted pod, or via email atShe who Persisted Podcast at gmail dot com.
You can always find us on ourwebsite, She Who Persisted dot com.
Thanks for listening. We hope you'llcontinue to join us in thinking about
(36:23):
ways that you can fight the patriarchy, Resist and persist, stay nasty. Bye.
Hello Nasties, and welcome to shewho persisted the Nasty Podcast. I am
your host, Elizabeth, and todaywe have an interview with doctor Emma Vawson.
Emma is an award winning public speakerand a postdoctoral research fellow at York
Universe with a PhD from the Universityof Waterloo. Her research looks at the
(00:22):
myriad of ways that marginalized people havedifficulty accessing gameplay and games culture, both
historically and in the present. She'sthe co author and co editor of the
anthology Feminism in Play, which looksat feminist approaches to gameplay. Our interview
looks at the way women and womenidentifying people are marginalized in game society.
(00:50):
We talk a little bit about incells, a little bit about gamer Gate,
and a lot about what we cando to make games a safer place
for marginalized people. And we hopeyou enjoyed the interview. She was warm,
(01:19):
She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted, Emma, can
you introduce yourself to us and tellus your pronouns? Yeah, I'm doctor
Emma Austin and I use she herpronouns great, and so I want to
I wanted to have you on theshow because your research is so interesting,
(01:42):
particularly in light of a lot ofthe discussions that go on around women in
gaming and gamer culture, which mayor may not have some kind of intersections
with in cell culture. And wecan kind of talk about all of that.
But before we get started talking aboutyour research, I want our audience
to know your Canadian So what's yourperspective on the dumpster fire that is US
politics right now? Um? Like, I I mean, I guess,
(02:07):
on the one hand, I shouldsay that, like my most red medium
piece is an essay about how liketo my fellow Canadians about how they all
need to like stop shitting on Americansbecause like we're not much better. Oh
yeah, it's there's a lot ofwhen you live in Canada, there's a
(02:30):
lot of like smugness around US politics. We think of Canadians as being like
real friendly. Yeah now that's bullshit. I mean, like I like to
think I'm an extremely friendly person.Um, but there is like I think
there's there's a there's just a realsmugness around Like I remember, you know
(02:50):
what everything was happening. There wasthis sort of idea that oh, like
well this would never happen to usbecause we're so much better than that,
and uh, you know, allof that stuff would which is ridiculous because
like, as a I mean asa continent, we share the same culture,
we share the same cultural values inmy opinion, especially you know,
in the age of the Internet.So I think I should put that upfront
(03:13):
that like, I don't want tobe like the smug Canadian in any way.
But at the same time, Iguess it's from my research perspective.
It's been really fascinating, you know, because I started doing this sort of
research about games culture in you know, like two eleven, twenty twelve,
and it was really amazing to watchthe way amazing as in horrible to watch
(03:38):
the ways in which American politics startedto sort of like reflect the norms of
games culture that I was studying.You know, a lot of people,
you know, now people will say, like, oh, this debate about
like political correctness, this is likeone of the foremost debates of our time.
And it's so weird to me whenlike I saw that whole debate play
out in games culture and everyone sortof made fun of it and you thought
(04:00):
it was over, and then itbecame like the sort of forefront of the
US election. You know, thefirst time I heard someone say the words
social justice warrior on TV, Iliterally thought I was going to pass out
because I was like, this can'tbe happening, Like this couldnot be real.
And you know, I think so, I guess I think my perspective
(04:23):
is very interesting because I was oneof the only Canadians I know who was
like, Trump is going to getelected. You know, the night that
Trump got elected, I gave twolectures on sort of like the connection between
games culture and cultural politics at large, and in both those lectures, I
was like, you know, braceyourself, Trump is going to get elected
(04:45):
tonight, and even all the studentswere like, ha ha, I can't
possibly happen. Yeah exactly, Ithappened. Yeah. Yeah. So I
guess that's sort of like my situatedperspective is this almost like one of the
things I talk about a lot inthe conclusion of my dissertation is almost having
(05:06):
like like a weird survivor's guilt orsomething that I think is something that Zoe
Quinn talks about in her book quitea bit too, where you know,
everything that happened during Gamergate, wewere so vocal about like, oh god,
this is like a really big problem. This isn't about games, this
isn't just games, and then tosort of sort of like watch the same
(05:26):
conversations play out on like a nationallevel, is it's like weirdly, I
don't know, retraumatizing or something.Yikes. Yeah, it's it's not great
from our perspective either. So yeah, I'll just yeah, I mean,
so let's talk about your research abit. I mean, you've mentioned it,
and this is a superloaded question,so but tell us about your research,
(05:48):
give us like the elevator pitch ofyour research. Yeah, so,
I guess, in the most generalway possible, my research looks at games
culture. It looks at issues ofdiversity, inclusion, and belonging within games
culture, and it looks at howthose issues affect people with different identities.
(06:09):
So how your experience of games cultureand the norms that take place within that
specific culture are going to affect youdifferently if you are, you know,
a woman, or if you're atrans or if you're a person of color,
if you're queer, that sort ofthing. I guess that's that's the
elevator pitch version. Yeah, No, that's perfect so I think a lot
(06:30):
of times we have a tendency tothink that in these virtual spaces, you
can create an identity for yourself andyou can be whomever you want. And
so you know, if I wantto have a male as a as a
you know, sisgendered woman, ifI want to have a male character that
I'm playing like in game, doesthat Does that change how people interact with
(06:54):
me in game then, because theydon't know whether I'm a woman or a
man. Yeah, it's it definitelyhen you know, if we're thinking about
multiplayer gaming, I know, likea lot a lot of women who play
using male avatars because you know,there's this sort of idea that maybe you'll
get more more not even like necessarilyyou'll get more respect, but like maybe
(07:15):
you just won't be noticed if youaren't on voice chat. I know that
it was a huge thing when I, like, you know, back in
the day, when I was playinglike old school World of Warcraft, I
played as a female character. Andit's interesting because at that time, it
was just so assumed that there wasno way that other players were female.
That when I would be talking tosomeone and I would say that I was
(07:38):
a female, they are a woman. They would be like, I can't
believe I just said a female.That was that was a slip. When
people find out I was a woman, they would just be like, well,
no, prove it, like Idon't believe you, like, I
mean, there's no exactly did theywant you to prove it over voice chat?
Like did they want you to like, I mean, how does I
(08:01):
mean? Don't get me wrong.I definitely would get the like, well
show me your tits then, yeah, or like show me your tits for
gold was like at the time,like a big thing. I don't think
I don't think that's a real thinganymore. But this was, you know,
like ten years ago or more,I should say. But you know,
sometimes I would get the question likeare you a girl in real life?
(08:24):
You know? Just girl? Irlwas how it was often phrased.
And I started to lie honestly,Like at first I would tell the truth
because I would be like, yeah, I'm a girl like in your fings.
But then it's like it stops beingworth it. It's it's easier to
just lie. And you know nowlike as an adult, when I play
multiplayer games, it's easier to justplay without a headset on and if there's
(08:48):
games that absolutely you have to weara headset, like I just I just
don't play them because it's just addinga sort of a secondary complication to what
I really want to do, whichis just like relax and play games in
peace. Sure sure, so,I mean and this kind of intersects with
the gamer Gate issue too, Yeah, the like harassment, like as of
(09:11):
I almost did it too, femalegamer as a woman playing games as part
of gamer culture, as part ofcomic culture, as part of a lot
of like genre culture generally, therehave been some real issues for women.
Yeah, And I think that's thething is there is this sort of it's
a it's an overlap, right,So, like it starts with this assumption,
these assumptions that one, you know, if you're playing games, you
(09:37):
probably aren't a woman or a girl. If you are playing if you are
a girl or woman you're playing games, there must be something wrong with you,
like there must be a reason whyyou do this. Third, a
sort of like biological inferiority assumption,like you physically cannot or physically and mentally
cannot be as good at games assomeone who's old. Hold on a second,
(10:00):
these are video games, yeah,Like you're sitting the controller on like
on a couch in a chair.Yeah. Yeah, so you like your
thumbs don't and fingers don't have likethe physical dexterity to be good at them.
Yeah. I think it comes downto to sort of assumption of dexterity.
I mean there's even weird discourse andgames culture about race and dexterity.
Like people will will insist that,you know, people people who are like
(10:28):
people who are of certain races havebetter dexterity when playing games, which obviously
is this a whole other loaded issue, But I think the thing is there
are less women in professional gaming,but it is for social and cultural reasons.
It's it's not because, um,they're not as good at it,
Yeah, exactly. But you know, unfortunately a lot of people still still
(10:52):
assume it, assume that. SoI guess that those assumptions are sort of
the base of all other harassment thatyou know, you may encounter in game
or on Twitter. You know.I think there was like a some tweets
that were going around yesterday where therewas some guy who was just like doing
a really loud screaming like this ismy hobby and yes, I keep my
(11:13):
hobby and I'll tell you to getout if I want to, because it's
it's mine and I need to protectit and this whole thing. And like
the woman who was yelling at justresponded and was like, dude, like
you were born in nineteen ninety six, Like I literally have playing video games
for like ten years, longer thanyou've been a lie. Sure, sure,
I mean my husband he's been playingD and D. I mean a
(11:33):
different type of games, but stillgamer culture, and they have the same
issues as video game culture, andhe's been playing it since like the late
seventies. And you know, ifthere were women who were interested in like
being in his gamer group, hewas totally welcome of them. I mean,
I think that there were some youknow, there were some cultural things
(11:56):
of like the anti D and Dmovement and all of that that left like
made a lot of people not interestedin D and D generally, and like
the fact that people who played Dand D are often like culturally stigmatized anyway.
But but yeah, I mean Ithink, you know, I'm a
gen xer, and so for meto hear like either a millennial or a
gen Z or whatever say like youcan't be part of this. It's like,
(12:20):
oh, come, like this ismy thing, Like oh really,
yeah, exactly, and like obviously, like I'm a fan of like people
like I don't care obviously if somebodyhas no qualifications, like if you've never
played a video game before, I'mnot gonna be like, you've never played
a video game before. But it'sreally exhausting when people are trying to like
exclude you from a culture you've beenpart of for so much longer than they
(12:43):
have. You know, It's it'sjust it's it's so exhausting, you know.
And I think about this a lotbecause I teach, and you know,
a lot of my students like theway they talk about games, Like
they talk about games like the PStwo is old, you know, and
like when I tell them the firstgame I ever played it was, you
know, on the Commodore sixty four, they're just like what, like,
(13:05):
and I think, so it's nota sixty four staying four, Like,
it's just it's it's beyond their perception. So like, I guess it's just
to know exactly like where those kidsare at. Because I teach games to
people who are the same age,I shouldn't say kids they're like nineteen twenty.
But you sound like an old lady. Yeah, not to be agist,
(13:26):
but yeah, but yeah, it'sit's it's really frustrating when you like,
you know exactly from teaching, likewhat mindset they're coming from, And
it's just that this idea that like, oh, you've just decided that you
like video games or D and Dor whatever because it's cool. Now,
it's it's just exhausting. I hadto suffer to make it cool exactly.
(13:50):
But but I think that I thinkthat you bring up an interesting point.
But both in your research and likejust this conversation that we've been having,
and I think that you know,I talked to a historian about women and
computing and this was a similar thing. You know, we don't see as
many women in like game or culturebecause it's maybe not a welcoming environment,
not that they aren't interested in goinginto those fields. And so one of
(14:13):
the things that your research really bringsto light is this issue of exclusion,
whether it's possible to create spaces ofinclusion, particularly in gaming, and you
know, I think we see thistranslating to you know, other spaces academia.
We see this in computing, inengineering instan fields generally, but you
(14:33):
know, a lot of different places. So we're what do you think maybe
the biggest impact of your research couldbe to this idea of creating spaces of
inclusion. Yeah. That's a reallygood question and very difficult to answer succinctually.
So I guess, like one ofthe things I've found in my research
(14:54):
is that, you know, Ihave an entire chapter of my dissertation where
I talk about attending and running gamingevents for women, women and non binary
people, and attending gaming events forwomen and non binary people. And it's
interesting because when we first like decidedto do this back in like two thousand
(15:15):
and eleven, twenty twelve, twentythirteen ish, we were met with like
such a massive backlash that this waslike such a horrible, horrible, horrible
thing to do that at first wedidn't do it. We ran like feminist
gaming events that also that were likeopen to anyone, and it was a
disaster. Oh wow, it was. We like started out the events with
(15:39):
you know, being like, youknow, don't do this, don't do
that, like anti harassment, allthese sorts of things, and like,
I don't. I guess we thoughtwe didn't expect people to behave on their
own, but we expected that ifwe said don't do this list of things,
then people would not do that listof things. But I guess the
thing is is that one of thethings we discovered is that with sort of
(16:00):
like male quote unquote allies, theyare so convinced that they are like already
feminists, like, oh, I'malready on board with this, that they
don't want to interrogate their own behaviorsat all. Sure, So we would
literally be like, don't do this, and then they would just like turn
around and do it. And afterlike our second event, I like ended
(16:22):
up having like a panic attack inthe bathroom and was like, yeah,
no, I'm never doing this everagain. Like I'm never running an event
that's like open to like having straightsis white men at it ever again.
Because it was just impossible to likepolice and not to say it is impossible,
because lots of people do it,but it was impossible for me to
(16:44):
police that sort of space. Ifound it exhausting, And I think one
of the things I found was thatpart of the reason why it was so
difficult was that I didn't feel includedin my own space. Oh God,
like I was the one who createdthat space, but I was still and
these were events where like you'd sitdown and you play games, and I
was still terrified to sit down andplay games. And I was still afraid
(17:07):
of the guy who was confidently tellingsome bullshit racist story in the corner.
You know, I was still Iwas still so afraid, even in this
space that I'd created, like essentiallyfor myself and for other people like me.
Well, it just it takes.It sucks all the air out of
the room, right, Like Imean, you're trying to do something and
then like it just it takes alleven though you're trying to be a badass
(17:32):
like bitch boss bitch like and tellpeople like this is what we're doing and
we're creating this like safe space,and like this is how and this is
why we need this safe space becauseof this, and please don't do the
xyz like okay, but I'm justgonna do x y Z because HI like
mail SI white mail, privilege andpatriarchy, Like yeah, that's really hard.
(17:53):
Yeah, And I think so ifthere's one thing I sort of discovered
through all of that, it wasthat I can't expect other people to feel
comfortable in a space I don't evenfeel comfortable in it, and it was
sort of trying to like go backon that, and later on I did
eventually find like time and place torun, you know, run events essentially
for people who feel marginalized by gamesculture and who would feel scared to attend
(18:15):
a normal gaming event. And Ido think those events were really empowering,
you know, Like we held oneevent where we had like a Smash one
oh one like teach people how toplay Smash, and we had like a
female teacher who came in and waslike a Smash expert, and it was
really interesting to see everyone in thegroup going from I'm fucking terrified of this
(18:36):
game. I have so many horribleexperiences playing this game, Like I'm so
scared right now to like literally winning. You know, I think that we
couldn't fix the overall problem, butwhat we could do is we could offer
some positive experiences playing games to counteractall the negative experiences that people came into
our space with. That's I mean, that's amazing, and that shows why
(18:57):
those spaces are necessary ary, right, I mean, you know, yeah,
this whole like conversation about oh yousnowflakes needing your safe spaces and you
can't handle like real life. Reallife doesn't have safe spaces. Well,
real life wouldn't have to have safespaces if people could agree not to be
jackwads and like not be microaggressive ormacroaggressive. Like I don't think people understand
(19:21):
that, like some of their microaggressionsaren't actually microaggressions, they're macroaggressions, like
they are they are literally terrible racist, sexist, misogynist things. Well,
and even if it is a microaggression, if it's the ten thousandth time you've
heard it, yeah, like itcould be the one time that it just
completely like knocks you off your path, Like I know, for me,
(19:41):
one of the things I talk about, one of the like sort of things
that happened to me that I talkedabout my dissertation is that I went to
like a gaming event when I wasin my first year of the PhD.
Being like there wasn't even event,it was just like a casual thing like
people sitting around playing games, andI was like, oh, well these
are I was the only woman there. It was all like white dudes,
(20:02):
and I was like, oh,it's okay because you know, these are
guys who were like grad students,so like doing their PhDs, Like they'll
be like civilized, they're woke,They're fine. Yeah, which was a
stupid thing for me to assume.And I was like so terrified to play
this game and like sit down andplay. And within like a couple of
minutes of me sitting down, Imade some comment about like, oh,
(20:23):
don't be afraid of me, likeI'm not going to kill you. We're
on the same team, and someguy in the back went typical game or
girl. Like it was just likebasically like it was like bad that I
wasn't going to kill my own teammatesbecause like that like indicated something about my
femininity. And like he definitely doesn'tremember saying that. I've talked to my
guy friends who were there. Theydon't remember him saying it, no,
(20:45):
because it's so commonplace that it doesn'tlike even register to them that they're saying
it. Yeah, Like they alllaughed, they were just like, oh,
it's just a joke. But forme, it was just like the
ten thousandth time I'd heard something likethat, and I was like, well,
okay, I finished the game.I passed control off to someone else.
I left and I went, I'mnever playing games with this group of
guys again, And I never did. You know, it's not your job
to teach them how to be alike non jack wide gamer, of course,
(21:11):
but it's also like, you know, they need to take responsibility for
their actions. It could you know, it could have been a really great
place for you to play, andlike really great dudes for you to play
with, and and and all ofthat, and they probably don't understand that,
like that's what they did, andthey think, Oh, you're just
being too sensitive, or you're justbeing hysterical, or you're just being a
rational again, typical typical lady,typical gamer girl. Yeah, do you
(21:36):
find so gamer girl is like ayou know thing, it's a like concept
just like queenbies in role playing gamingand stuff like that. Do you kind
of own the or try to ownor reclaim the term gamer girl or do
you have you tried to or isthere a different term that like women who
game try to call themselves. Yeah, I mean this is such like as
(21:57):
such a good question, and Ihave such a long history of sort of
like navigating my identity with that.I mean, when I was in high
school and in university, I definitelytried to be like, yeah, you
know, screw you, I'm agirl gamer, like this is this is
like I tried to be like reallyin your face about it, essentially,
(22:19):
and then I kind of had somany negative experiences that I just sort of
tried to cover it up for awhile. Like I never stopped playing games,
I just like stop wearing games Tshirts and stop telling people I wore
games because it just seemed to likeopen me up to criticism and harassment.
And then around the time I startteaching again, even though now the word
gamer kind of makes me cringe andI don't really want to use it to
(22:41):
describe myself, even though like Idefinitely meet any like I meet a lot
of people's criteria. I'm sure Idon't want to say anybody, because obviously
there's a lot of people who don'tthink I'm a gamer because I'm a feminist
or whatever. But I did startusing it again in the classroom weirdly enough,
because I thought that it was reallyimportant for my students to realize that,
(23:03):
you know, someone like me isa feminist. Is there there feminist
teacher who also considers themselves a gamerand also plays a lot of video games,
And so I guess the world gamerhas become like a teaching tool to
me. But like in like asocial like in a social setting, I
would like never be like I'm agamer because it's just it's almost like ironic
(23:27):
now, like the way people usethe term gamer like it's like a big
joke, essentially interesting. Well,and like, so is there. I've
been talking a lot about language withpeople recently, and specifically how feminist,
feminized terms are seen as bad,like playing like a girl or whatever.
(23:47):
Is are there like a list ofattributes of what a gamer girl is that
are all basically derogatory. Yeah,I mean it's interesting. I'm just asking
because I don't know. No,No, it's no, it's it's it's
interesting because I mean I've definitely beencalled like gamor girl or girl gamer as
an insult like many times in mylife, like no doubt. I mean
also I've heard people call me thatin like a what they thought was like
(24:11):
a positive way. One thing Italked about in my research is how like
the problem with adopting like a gameor girl identity is it's heavily policed within
games culture. So essentially within gamesculture, they've said like, okay,
well, women are welcome as longas they adopt X list of behaviors,
and in my opinion, the numberone thing on that list would be devout,
Like you have to you have todenounce feminism, like you can't be
(24:34):
a feminist. So interesting, yeah, and so like growing up and probably
until it probably took me until Iwas It's weird because I'm a professional feminist
now, but I was probably twentyfour twenty five the first time I called
myself a feminist, and like,there were times in my life where I
would have considered myself anti feminist,which I think is part of the reason
why I'm so fascinated by anti feministtake groups. And I mean it was
(24:56):
in part because I had to choose, Like I had to choose between being
a feminist and being a game andgames meant so much to me in my
youth, Like I just literally couldn'tgive them up, you know. Instead,
I adopted sort of a strict setof behaviors that Okay, well,
I have this group of guy friendswho play games. If I want them
to keep me around, I can'tever call them on all their sex to
(25:17):
shit they do, Like I haveto let them get away with every sexist
thing they do. I have tolet them, you know, sexually her
ass me, joke about how theywant to have sex with me, Like
I have to joke about my boobs, like a joke about my body.
Like I have to let all thatgo because that's the only way I'm allowed.
Like I'm barely allowed to be inthis group. Like I was allowed
to be in the same room asthem, but like I wasn't allowed to
play D and D with them,you know, Like I could play say
(25:40):
smash with them, but I wouldhave to put up with like being braided
about how shit I was at it. It was, you know, this
very interesting like liminal space you occupywhere it's like, Okay, you're like
allowed to hang out with us,but you're not allowed to be one of
us. Yeah. I play fantasyfootball with a bunch of friends of mine
from high school, and somehow that'slike okay. I mean I'm definitely like
(26:00):
the only woman in that group.But a few years ago, you know,
the guys have always kind of pickedon one another, and it got
real abusive at one point, andI was just I called them all out
on it. I was like,you, guys, you need to cut
this shit out, like just stop. This is and it wasn't just toward
me. I mean some of it. I once I called them out on
it, guess it became much moreabout me. But it was just bad.
(26:23):
And so you know, they usethe excuse like, oh, you're
just one of the guys, likewe're picking on you, like we pick
on them. But like, thereason that it is so awful is because
the way that they pick on oneanother is by like picking on the thing
that makes them like weakest. Andthe thing that makes you the weakest is
that you're a woman. And thenso like let's pick on you for being
a woman, Like that's what makesyou weak and bad. Yeah, and
(26:45):
that's why, Like essentially the argument, like the argument they brought up is
the same argument people will make aboutgames culture. They're like, well,
if you want to play games,if you like hate the people trash talk,
well, like you know, trashshock, that's just like part of
the game or whatever. But thething is is that, like women are
not subjected to the same trash talkthat men. You know, I do
believe that there are such a thingas like consensual trash talk between groups of
(27:07):
people. But I don't like,but when you are trash talk to as
a woman, it's about the factthat you're a woman, or you know,
if he's always about being a woman. Yeah, exactly. And like
one of my colleague, you know, doctor Coshona Gray, in her work,
you know, she talks about herexperiences playing on Xbox Alive, and
(27:29):
you know, people will like pickup like they'll like vocally profile her,
to pick up on the fact thatshe's a black woman, and then it
becomes about not just the fact thatshe's a woman. It becomes about the
fact that she's a black woman.And like, I'm not even gonna say
any of the horrendous things that she'swritten about people saying to her. But
you know it's that well, Iwill say, though, at least they're
intersectional in their like abusive, right, I mean, yeah, it's that's
(27:55):
something I suppose. I mean,it's the same. Yeah, like I've
heard, like I've heard just likeI've heard even you know, like qure
dudes talk about how like they'll they'llfeel vocally profiled if they play games online,
Like, oh, will people beable to like tell I'm gay by
my voice and like will they usethat against me? And it's just like
(28:15):
so that's the thing is it's liketrash talk. Like people want to act
like it's this like like great equalizer, but it's not a great equalizer if
you know, you are like usingit to be a bigot. What it's
crazy talk. So we're we're kindof getting to the end of our conversation.
But but I want to ask youabout something that I saw on Twitter
(28:37):
that you posted recently, and thatis the gamer dress. So you mentioned
like you have t shirts that areabout specific games and stuff like that,
and I understand that, like gamingcompanies are really trying to like increase their
marketing to women in order to bemore inclusive. How's that working out?
Uh? Yeah, So it's interesting. If anyone wants to read the essay,
(29:00):
you can find it on medium.I'm sure it's the only essay about
the gamer dress. Uh yeah,So in case you haven't seen anything about
on Twitter. Essentially, it isa dress that was designed by a company
and the people who designed it wewere all male, and it was like
presented. It's not just that itwas a dress, it was presented with
(29:22):
this tweet that was like, hellofemale gamers us if anybody says female whatever,
I'm so tired of it, Likewe have we have something for you.
And like the worst part about thewhole thing is that this dress that
they had created, which like islike a tight, very tight, very
short dress that has a zipper thatyou can undo to show your cleavage.
(29:45):
Oh stop yeah, um, Likethe worst thing about it is that,
like they say in the tweet,you know, like, oh, it's
like so unfair how women are treatedin games, and we wanted to do
something for them, and so likethat was sort of the thing that really
sent it over the top, isit? You know what? They probably
could have posted this dress on theirwebsite, and I'm sure some people with
(30:07):
like questionable aesthetic taste would have boughtthis dress, like it's it's ugly,
but like the dress itself is likenot even so much. What's so offensive.
What's so offensive is that they presentedit as like a positive thing for
female gamers who are like constantly dealingwith sexual harassment and sexual assault in gaming
(30:27):
communities. And so it's basically likea sexy like a halloween costume, like
gamer hallow, a female gamer halloweencostume like that, let's be as offensive
as possible, like sexy female gamerHalloween costume. Yeah, And like one
of the things I talked about inmy essay is that essentially, like because
as famers, we've had to likeadopt these sort of survival techniques to be
(30:49):
accepted within games culture. A survivaltechnique is to just be hot. Like
the hotter you are, that's oneway to do it. The hotter you
are, the nicer gamer dudes aregoing to be with to you because they
want to sleep with you. Andit it does not solve your problems,
Like I talk in the essay abouthow that went for me in my twenties
(31:10):
when I was like young and attractiveand having to deal with horrible people wanting
to date me because I was agamer. So like it's not a solution,
but like it is a survival techniqueto be like I'm gonna put on
this tight dress and I'm gonna,you know, look really nice, and
then maybe maybe then they'll be nicerto me. Well, and then you
flirt with them. And then whenthen you flirt with them to try and
(31:33):
be nice, well, they pickup on you and you flirt with them
to try and be nice because we'rein spaces a public space where like it's
not acceptable to just tell someone togo screw themselves, like you're not interested,
but but you're wearing the dress.So then when you when you turn
them down, eventually they call youa slot and they pull this whole like
insale bullshit where they're like, youknow, you're the one that's that's at
fault, like all of these feministsand you and you shouldn't have worn that
(31:56):
dress and blah blah blah. IfI want to wear a sexy dress,
I should be to wear a sexydress. But like it's not it's not
for you. It's because like Ihave to be able to fit into a
specific situation. Yeah, no,one hundred percent. Like I think that's
the thing is like I am abig fan of dresses, and like I'm
I'm like a very big fan ofyou know, I'm gonna wear like revealing
(32:17):
clothing whether you like it or not. But the dress isn't either of those
things. It's essentially I guess theway I put in my essay was like
we've surpassed the this is not foryou part of games culture and we've reached
there. Here you go this thingthat I like, this is for you,
so essentially like, yeah, youcan be part of this space if
(32:37):
you put on this sort of likegaming uniform that makes you better for me
to look at. And it wasonly made like more ironic that a couple
days after that, the like allfemale space walk got canceled because they didn't
have enough space suits to fit women. Yeah, and there was that Onion
article that was like, oh,the new space dress. Oh god,
(32:57):
yeah exactly, Like well, it'slike every every character in any game of
like women, it's like, oh, well, like I'm gonna wear like
a chain mail bra and like youknow, something that's really revealing and that's
going to protect me, Like that'sgoing to be really great armor for me.
Yeah, no exactly. And thenlike I think one of the things
I talk about is how essentially,like I think this comes back to why
(33:21):
you know, games culture and youknow, maybe even culture at large is
so hostile to this concept of likethe social justice warrior, who is this
person like myself who's like part ofgames but is not you know, changing
their appearance or changing there the waythey act or changing the way they talk
to make gamers happy and it's infuriatingto them, you know, And like
(33:45):
there's this sort of like stereotype ofthe social justice warrior as someone who's like
too fat and their hair is toobright, and they talk too loud,
and their clothes are too exuberant,and you know, they don't even play
games. And you know, Ithink that that that figure. It's the
same thing of like a feminist,like you know, they're they're at like
anti sex, anti fun, antieverything like good in the world, Like,
(34:07):
no, we just want you tonot be jackasses to women, and
like we want to like break downstructural inequality. Yeah, no, one
hundred percent exactly. And I thinkthat, but it's just it's so I
always come back to this, butit's this idea that like when you are
so so so use, so accustomedto privilege, any sort of attempt at
(34:30):
equality is going to feel like oppressionto you. And I think that that's
what we're seeing, like not justin game spaces, but in North American
culture at large, that's what we'reseeing in politics at large. You know,
like any attempt at equality is seenas like oppression against the white man.
And that's absolutely bullshit. I totallytotally agree with you. Oh my
(34:53):
gosh, I wish we could talkforever about all of this. But where
can people find you online? Yeah? I actually have a brand new website
www dot e M M A voss n dot com And if you can't
remember that, you can find meon Twitter under my name and you can
(35:16):
DM me on there, and there'salso a contact form on my website.
Awesome. Thank you so so muchfor talking to me today and fighting the
good fight against gamer culture that's exclusionaryof women and marginalized groups. We can
only do so much, but hopefullyeverything that you're doing and everything that you're
(35:38):
writing and bringing it to the surfaceis helping. I hope. So thank
you for listening to She Who Persistedthe Nasty Podcast. If you want to
reach out to us on social media, you can reach us on our Facebook
page She Who Persisted the Nasty Podcast, the Facebook gushion group per Sisters,
(36:01):
the She Who Persisted group on Instagramat She Who Persisted on Twitter, She
Persisted pod, or via email atShe who Persisted Podcast at gmail dot com.
You can always find us on ourwebsite, She Who Persisted dot com.
Thanks for listening. We hope you'llcontinue to join us in thinking about
(36:23):
ways that you can fight the patriarchy, Resist and persist, stay nasty. Bye.
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