Ryan Stuczynski of Gemrate is back "Weighing in on the terrain" E360

Gemrate's Ryan Stuczynski returns for the conclusion of our great hobby and grading conversation.


Talking points on this episode may include:


*The evolution of Gemrate.

*What's new and what's coming.

*Dealing with the grading companies themselves...good, bad or both.  


*Thoughts on the SGC acquisition then and now.


*Top graded athletes.

*Caitlin Clark thoughts.

*"Junk Slab" era?



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sports guard Nations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's you on number one song, Sportscarnations, hobby is the People, spawns.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Garnation, What is up? Everybody? Episode three sixty sportscard Nation
Coming your Way, Part two of our great conversation with
Ryan Sezinski from gem Rate, and we're gonna tackle This
episode is gonna be uh part two and longer than

(00:38):
part one, and we're gonna tackle a lot of different things,
including his takes on what he thinks going on in
the grading market. Is it is it a junk slab
era as some people say? What did he think of
collectors buying or acquiring SGC? Does he think the end
is near? Foreshg. He's going to weigh in on that.

(01:02):
And you know, as great as the work he does
with jem Rate, he doesn't you know, those reports don't
give kind of his feelings. So that's great. You know.
That's what's great about having him on, is we get
really how he really feels or what he thinks is
going on. So it was great catching up with him

(01:22):
after a couple of years, and again we'll have him
back on sooner. The next time he comes on but
that's this week's episode, so let's get to it, all right.
It is the conclusion of our conversation with Ryan Stizinski
from jem Rate, and we're going to start out here

(01:43):
talking about what he thought when he heard the news
that Collectors had acquired SGC. Grady. You know, I obviously
I love your emails, I love the report itself. But
the one thing you don't get with that, right is
your opinionion. It's it's sort of it's data, right. So

(02:03):
I want to I don't want to call it the
hot seat, but you know, I want to get your
your you know, Ryan Cezenski's opinion when that acquisition was announced,
when Collectors acquired, as you from a from a personal aspect,
you know, what were kind of your thoughts on when
that news broke.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
You know, as somebody that lives and breathes just every day,
I was caught off guard by it, you know. And
I feel like I'm reasonably in tune with what's happening.
You know. Again, I talked to the teams enough where
I feel like I'm cludeding to sort of certain initiatives,
and I was caught off guard by that and that
that sort of meant a couple of things. One is
it sort of happened pretty quickly, at least in my mind,
and again it may not have ultimately, but just a

(02:44):
lack of sort of whispers or visibility into that was
really surprising because I just figured it would have crossed
my desk at some point, and it obviously didn't. It
felt like a defense measure by PSA slash collectors when
it happened, and it felt like, you know, you were
hearing a lot of sort of chatter what it might
look like for fanatics to get into the grading space,
and so I personally thought it was more of like

(03:04):
a hey, let's just do we need to do to
sort of quiet this. We'll make SGC work for us.
There's certain synergies and overlap that makes sense for us
to onboard no matter what. There's sort of a floor
here that's pretty well understood, and let's sort of get
to know and better understand the SGC brand is a
part of this, and so I just felt like a
logical way for collectors to sort of quiet sort of

(03:26):
the competitive chatter from what it might look like for
another massive player in the space to bring grading on
board and scale at a pace that maybe can only
compete with you know, only a few people could compete
with PSA. And yeah, so anyways, I think they just
explored what they might look like and at the same time,
it was one where they figured they could onboard greaters,

(03:46):
you know, in a way. Grading is a challenge, you know,
when we talk about Beckett earlier, Like Beckett is one
of the reasons that they haven't grown as much as
people wish they would have over the years is they're
just very particular and like their grading style and like
it's just very hard that we take for granted how
easy it is to sort of fill these grading roles
and what it means to train these grads and sort
of you know, have people sort of advance or sort

(04:08):
of filter out as or flow out of the you know,
the onboarding process. And you know, that was another way
that I think PSA could rationalize sort of making that acquisition.
So I think it was one that you know, the
short answer is that I think it was defensive. I
could be completely wrong there. I have no visibility or
insight into that, and I think it was one that's
productive for them ultimately in a sense that they learned

(04:28):
a lot and they've picked up a lot of you know,
visibility into what was working over there. But you know,
ultimately the direction they've gone in is that they're sort
of minimizing that brand instead of investing in it in
a way that might compete with you know, PSA a
bit more or sort of provide people with that second
option at scale. And you know, ultimately it just feels

(04:49):
like they kind of have landed in the place where
I do feel like it was a bit of a
defensive measure and they kind of kick the tires on
what that could mean for them, but ultimately landed in
a place where you know, they're sort of prioritizing the
PSC brand, which again not surprising, but sort of really
suppressing the SUC brand in the process, which is frustrating
for a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, I mean, I'll guess I'll wear that hat as
as you know, the full disclosure. They sponsored this podcast
and they're good for the rest for the rest of
this year, and I'm still am a folks over for them, right.
I just had to adjust my rates as they've made
the discount rate go away, and you know, people come

(05:29):
up to my table at the show and and they
asked me, you know, John, you know, and they know,
some of them know, like my relationship, how far it goes?
When they're like John, I'm here and this is gonna
be the end of them? And uh, you know collectors
or you know, they usually say PSA is gonna phase
them out and and and that sort of thing. And

(05:51):
I ultimately, I hope that isn't the case. I don't
have a vote or a say, but I mean, you
know we're talking to year from now is see it?
You know, we'll again. We can speculate all we want
right until it have but a year from now, is
STC still exists as a grading company?

Speaker 1 (06:12):
I think so. I think what Ryan Hoape said over
the summer is sort of the course that they're going down,
which is, you know, I think he was very candid
and didn't really shy away from the idea that look
where boutique means something to us. And he gave a
specific period of time which was like twenty sixteen twenty
seventeen levels for SGC as he sort of envisioned where

(06:33):
things might return to. And if you can look back
at the data and some of the you know, comments
that were made back then, they were only doing you know,
twenty to thirty thousand cars at that time, So I
think they're going to exist. I think they're going to
sort of service a diche around vintage really well. I
shouldn't even sort of overstate that. I just think they're
going to service that. Hopefully they do it really well
and that sort of continues to sort of carry them

(06:55):
through and have significance for the hot or play a
significant role for the hobby. Even for those people that
were it's like their sweet spot and they love that
brand and they want the consistency and the uniformity of
having that's continuing forward. So I think they're still around,
but I just think they're not going to do, you know,
the things that sort of help them excel. The last
couple of years was doing top specials and things like

(07:16):
that where they were grading fifty thousand cards from the
same set, right, which is one great for them because
they can, you know, the catalog of cards are seeing
is pretty limited and the volumes really you know, fantastic
for them for a short period of time. They're just
not going to do that stuff anymore. So I think
they'll still be around, And I also think it sort
of has this long tail impact of when you think
about how people price cards and slabs that they're in,

(07:36):
you know, to degree you don't think a company is
going to be around impacts the slabs. And so if
you think that a company becomes less and less relevant,
the slabs do take a hit one way or another.
I think people just sort of devalue companies that sort
of disappear. And so to the degree that they can
sort of even if they're only grading twenty thousand cards,
but they're grading them really well, it still helps the
equity sort of sustain that these were really solid grading

(07:58):
foundations that continue to exist. The proof is still sort
of being delivered on every day. And so if I
was sort of sitting in their seats at the collectors
you know table, I would think that that's the play,
which is just let's give them a little bit of
room to operate. If something jumps sort of there's some
certain places where they start to sort of surprise, or
there's outliers for what they're seeing versus what we're seeing

(08:18):
sort of at the scale unit of collectors and PSA,
then they could take note of it. But ultimately I
think they're just going to let sort of their loyalists
continue to lean into their sort of leveraged SGC, but
like really limit the resources that they devote to it.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, well, listen, great points, great points. One thing I
want to like a point you made that I think
people forget about, right, Like having the brand still exists, right,
affects the cards that have already are in those slavs,
right if that brand goes away. We've seen that with
other brands that don't exist anymore, like out of sight,

(08:53):
out of mind, and then obviously that's going to effect
the value of any card encapsulated. So like to me again,
and I like you, I don't have any sort of
inside or trading knowledge or anything like that, but I
just don't It wouldn't make a lot of sense to
just get rid of SGC. From collector's standpoint, I mean,

(09:15):
I can, I guess you could make both points for
both sides, but uh, something they would own would lose
value even if even if they didn't want it to
exist anymore. And listen, you know, right, depending on the month.
And I know it's been a bad trend lately for SGC,
especially looking at the gem rate numbers, but you know,

(09:36):
at one point they were one and two, right, and
that really wasn't that wasn't necessarily debatable if they making
an announcer, Hey, sgc's going away, this is the last
day to sow many cards and then that's it. I mean,
there's always gonna you know, we can we can say
but PSA is gonna be hard to knock off that
number one perch. But there's always good someone's always going

(09:59):
to be number two, whoever that might be. You know,
they they phase out SGC, and I think CGC walks
right into the number two spot on chat you know,
un chat today again, six months from now, a year
from now, two years from now, you know, like you said,
things can change. But they would really open up the door,
Like the competition is not going away when you it's

(10:23):
just like it's like college football ranking. The team gets
knocked out, someone else is moving up into that slot,
so you're sort of opening. To me, it would be
really opening the door. Even some would argue Ryan that
the PSA sort of opened that door already somewhat to
other for other companies. But you get rid of SGC.

(10:44):
I think they're just opening the door wide open. Rather
than a crack or a smith so you know, kind
of your thoughts piggybacking off of what I made.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, I mean I think what's I don't know, ironic's
the proper word here, But just like intriguing is that
SGE gave the playbook away. And you know, if you
are it's not an easy sort of switch to flip.
But you know, if you want a counter the PSA,
we're going to help make everything liquid after we grade it.

(11:14):
Part of the equation which is a long part of
the equation right now, because the key component there is degrading,
equation is extending and so the windows are growing. Like,
if you really want to shrink and improve liquidity for people,
you get cards back to them as soon as you can.
Like that's the ultimate way to improve liquidity is get
people their money or their cards back as quickly as possible.

(11:34):
And if you're sitting in the CGC or the you know,
the Beckett seats and offices today, you know you try
to think about, how do we really think about ways
to improve our turnaround times? And one of the ways
that SEC was able to do it very thoughtfully was
to do these promotions which sort of really limited you're
not seeing every football card come in the door. By

(11:55):
doing a football promotion, you're not doing a vintage special,
You're not doing a nineteen ninety special. You're doing these
specials which are really narrow and allow your team to
create a lot of the same cards and not have
to spend as much time in the research and ID phase.
And it's just you're grouping a lot of stuff together
that makes sense. And so you know, I would love
to see somebody lean into that playbook little bit more
and really and you know, on the back end of that,

(12:15):
then provide service that is sort of differentiated in our space.
I think it's pretty well understood that it's just it's
hard to have a conversation or real dialogue with a
lot of companies in space. They've obviously tried to improve
that over the years, but you know, it's just not
an open line of communication and one that companies really
have put a lot of resources behind, including at the
manufacturer level, and so to stand out there makes a

(12:35):
difference and sort of it's something that people will really
appreciate and help you sort of build a lot of
brand loyalty. So I would love to see people lean
into that playbook, which has already been established. It's just
a bit of a you know, departure for some of
these companies which haven't really operated. You know, again I
mentioned a big hurdle there is graters. You have to
sort of scale greaters and that's the part of the
equation that's the hardest part of it. So it's how
can you do it sort of in a way that

(12:56):
allows you with the existing resources to make that happen,
or to you know, even do something that's a little
bit more focused, like, hey, you're going to be a
greater paternally going to be a great for a specific
you know, five sets for a little while as we
sort of do promotions. But poibeing is it's I think
there's a lot of opportunity there and I do think
you know, PSA is just a big company at the stage.
They're doing a lot of great things, but there's a
lot of opportunity to chip away at what they've done

(13:18):
and build on it because there's a lot of people
that are unhappy with what they're providing to the hobby
today and they're doing a lot of great stuff, but
you're just never going to have all the answers. There's
so many different people on so many with different perspectives
and different journeys throughout this hobby. You can't service all
the needs, and so there's an opportunity for somebody to
at least a company, if not a couple, you know,
to thrive as well. I think. And you saw that
as you see, had a fantastic outcome from where they were,

(13:40):
right just by being the number two player. You don't
have to be number one to yield a good return
for your owners or your investors, or whoever it is.
And so there's certainly opportunities for a lot of companies
in the space.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
And as big as PSA is, and you know this, right,
I'm preaching to the choir here, and they are number one.
That's not really debatable. There are people you've heard of,
were read, there are people who just don't like them,
and like, I'm not giving my card. I know they're
the number one, but for my reasons, whether they're personal
or I'm just not giving them, I'm not adding to

(14:13):
their their number one. This I'm going in a different direction.
And and granted you can say that every company, right,
someone's gonna say I'm not sending SGC or I'd never
send the Beckett again or anymore or ever, you know,
but for so for even for being number one, that
doesn't mean everyone loves them. They have their their detractors

(14:35):
as well. And I you know, you kind of pointed
out on that you mentioned them earlier and the rumor
I heard, I don't know, I'm assuming you heard it
before the whole Collectors acquired SGC actually went down. I heard,
you know, the whispers that Fanatics was trying to acquire SGC,
and as a as a lover of SGC, that was

(14:59):
something I was definitely you know, someone else had heard
it and they know my feelings about SGC, and they
called me up and said, John, what would you think
about that? And I said, I'll be very candid. It's
not a secret. Like if that was to happen, that
would be the end of my relationship with the brand
SGC had Fanatics acquired them. And here's where I come.

(15:23):
And you're a collector as well, Ryan, so I'll get
your stand. But here's here's why I felt so strongly
about that and still do. Like if something and this
goes for any company, you know, SGC was just sort
of mentioned or that was the rumor. But if Fanatics
ever bought a grading card company and existing one or
even started their own, I would have no relationship with

(15:47):
that because I just view that as a huge conflict
of interest that you would grade your Not only are
you grading your own produced cards in a sense, you're
also then potentially grading your your competition's products as well.
It would you know, it just doesn't sit well with
me or sit right way. So like, had that deal

(16:10):
went down when it was kind of whispered and rumored,
which I'm glad it didn't, because that would have been
the end of my relationship with SGC as a folk suburb,
as a sponsor, it would you know, that would have
been in It would have been sad because I like it.
So you know, when that news broke that it was
Collectors that had acquired you know, it was sort of

(16:33):
bittersweet too, right. I was glad it wasn't Fanatics, but
then it was like, oh man, you know, it's that's
that's tough too. You know, kind of your thoughts on
fanatics if they were to get into the grading space,
whether that's acquired an existing company and absorbing them that way,

(16:53):
or just building a new building and said hey, we're
fanatics grading.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, I mean it's tough. I think you're seeing it
all over the hobby right now, which is it's just
for better or worse. The hobby's in a really great place,
and that's just for the better for the most part here.
But you know, you're still seeing a lot of people
who are trying to recover from raising too much money
or sort of being overvalued a few years ago, and
so ultimately they're still trying. They're in like prove a
mode in my mind, and so people are willing to

(17:20):
tow lines that under sort of a best case scenario,
they would avoid. And so what I mean by that is,
you know, you have companies like Arena Club who grade
their own cards and then put them into slab packs.
You have PSA who grades cards and then buys cards
back through offers like again, these are these are fine
sort of if you understand the ins and outs of
how they're sort of preventing there to be true conflicts

(17:41):
or what they might do to sort of eliminate or
minimize conflicts. And I think that Fanatics was willing to
sort of step and toe that line as well, if
that was sort of really realistically, like what happened there
is sort of a scenario that was you know, almost
likely to play out. And so I think the challenge
from a hobby standpoint is we all of the person
pate and you know, we we sort of find you know,

(18:04):
we put our own boundaries in place. And I do
think like ultimately, like a fanatics would have been fine
had they done something like that, right, I think people would.
It would have frustrated somebody like yourself, and that does
sort of put them at long term risk, right, but
the near term sort of juice was worth the squeeze
in the in sort of what they could benefit from
from a revenue standpoint, or from a product standpoint, or

(18:25):
from an integration standpoint. And so, you know, I do
think there's and I think we're seeing that all over
the place. I just think, like I just mentioned a
couple companies in a space who are doing really well
and are willing to tow that line, and it's because
they're still just trying to sort of again prove out
this story for one reason or another, and they're ultimately
like bigger picture stories that we don't were as collectors
or flippers or whoever you are, in the seats that

(18:46):
we're in, we don't hear the board meetings about why
they're doing what they're doing. But usually it's much bigger
than what we realize, and there's ultimately stories being told
that are not relevant to our day to days but
matter to these companies. And so I do think like
it was realists that that was something that was under consideration.
I do think it would have, you know, rubbed a
lot of people the wrong way. I do think it
would have been fine for fanatics at the end of

(19:06):
the day too, and it still could be fine for
them ultimately, because you know, there are limited ways to
participate in this hobby and these are some of the
biggest players we're talking about, and so you know, if
you want to be you can you know, hold the
line and not buy from certain companies or not work
with certain companies. But usually, you know, just the way
this hobby works is that the momentum will continue forward

(19:26):
with those companies. It's not you know, enough inertia to
prevent problems and so or to cause problems. And so
you know, you're kind of wearing it as a part
of your identity and that's fine. That's a lot of
what collecting is and sort of what we do, but
it doesn't force a lot of change in our hobby unfortunately,
because people sort of move to where the dollars go
and flow, and so, you know, I think it it
would have been interesting. I don't think it would have

(19:47):
got a lot of push back, but ultimately I think
it would have been fine, which is unfortunately what happens
a lot of times. And I I mean unfortunately from
the standpoint of, like I wish there was bigger picture
sort of pieces being put in place or safeguards put
in place that would you know, not sort of represent
this constant sort of you know, prove it mentality that's
in the hobby or sort of this money grab that's

(20:08):
in the hobby today. So it's a challenge, but it's
one that at least I think people are aware of.
And you know, it's again where you sort of put
your own personal boundaries in place and you can talk
about it and you can sort of you know, speak
to that stance and sort of try to help people
understand why that's the case. But it just it's unfortunately,
just has like a little impact on the day to
day of what these companies do.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, you know, as well as I do, right hobbyists
have short memories. Rights something negative breaks and everyone talks
about it seems for like a week to ten days,
and then it just fizzles sort of right out and
then we uh, some people not everyone paying with a broadbrush,
but uh, some people will will forget about it and like,

(20:47):
like you said, go where the money sort of goes.
And you know, for me, I and again I can
only speak for myself, that would have been a sad
day and a deal breaker, like the whole kind of
like my memory wouldn't be short there unfortunately or unfortunately,
depending on how you look at that would have been
uh something I would have. You know, I just I

(21:08):
don't believe like you should be grading your own products
on a larger scale, like I know you mentioned someone
like the p s A or some buybacks and different
things along those lines. Repacks are what they are, and
you know arenegrading is not on the same level. They
might not like to hear me say that, but that's

(21:30):
the way to some of these other companies we've already
talked about. So you know, I just don't want to
see a major player, let me put it that way,
like grading their own products and also grading their their competitor.
Now they can say, hey, we you know, we're doing
it in a in a sense, uh you know, fairly

(21:51):
and with equality, and we don't care. You know, if
if if it's a Panini card and it's a ten,
and it's a Panini card, that's a ten, they can
say all the right things. I just it wouldn't sit
well with me. And I guess what I'm saying is
I probably wouldn't be buying it, maybe as much as
other people might be less, you know, a little more

(22:11):
forgiving of it. I would that would just my moral state,
whatever my moral standard level is, that one would cross
the end for me.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's time for a quick break. Thoughts will be right.

Speaker 4 (22:23):
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(22:44):
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Speaker 2 (22:56):
Thanks for sticking with us. Let's return to the show.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
I heard you mentioned it earlier, right, like, and you
hear this, this three word term thrown around, the junk
slab error, We have the junk wax error. Uh, now
we have the junk slab all right. I can tell you,
you know, as being a folk suburb, right, some of
the stuff that comes through, you know, you know, it's
not my card, and people can grade whatever they want,

(23:27):
but you know, sometimes it's there's some head scratching cards
if you will, uh, you know we're seeing uh you
know your reports h illustrate, there's no shortage of cards
getting graded. So your kind of take on the jug
junk slab error, you know, connotation is it? Are we

(23:48):
seeing it? Are we in it? Is it something that's
even gonna be a bigger issue? If you will? Like
where where do you you know? Where do you stand
when you hear those?

Speaker 1 (23:59):
So I definitely think that we're in It's nuanced. But
I was calling a junk parallel era because I think
it's just another level of that, which is parallels have
made people comfortable grading cards that are not base cards.
But there are many of these parallels are just glorified
based cards. Ultimately, like the hobby will not value them

(24:19):
in the long run. There's sort of things that we're
seeing stand out now which are being you know, valued
sort of accordingly and maybe effectively too much at this
stage and what we're seeing witnessing over the last few months.
But I do think that it's made people comfortable that
just because it's not a base card, it's going to
sort of pull value over the long run. And ultimately,

(24:40):
what we have is a ton of parallels that look
the same and or are you know, hardly differentiated, and
our hard to understand is really like the significance or
role they might why they might actually you know, sustain
or have meaning to somebody in the long run. One
of the things that the manufacturers have been horrible at,
and you know, they were good at it ten years ago,
sort of lost sight of and now Tops is trying

(25:01):
to do it, but they're sort of doing it in
a way that's catering towards that the high end collector
a lot of times. But it's just been really poor
storytellers of what they're building and why they're building it.
And so if you want to put one hundred parallels
in the market by all means, do it, but let
us know how you got there, let us know what
you were thinking, why you were thinking that, why it
should matter to us like we Otherwise you're literally just saying, hey,

(25:21):
we're pulling another one over. You see in ten years
when you realize that this was us getting ya again.
And so, you know, I kind of see that as
the reality that we're in right now. And again, all
it's doing is sort of flowing through to the grading
companies in a way that people are like, Okay, well
this has a number on it, so I probably should
send it in, or it looks different than the base card,
I should probably send it in. So the difference between

(25:42):
what we were seeing four years ago is that people
were grading a ton of base cards. Fortunately, people are
not grading base cards. You know, air quotes here because
they are not base cards. But the way the hobby
was going to treat these is sort of glorified base cards,
you know, ten years down the line, because they don't
really mean or stand for much. And so I do
think we're in a parallel era, which is leading to
junk wax, which is leading to you know, just people

(26:03):
overvaluing a lot of cards that are being manufactured today,
which is again no different. It just looks different, but
it's not going to feel any different ten years from noo.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, I agree pretty much verbatim for what he's well said.
And I'm a base card guy. I love a nice
rookie card, whether it be out of you know, TOPS
Update or TOPS Flagship. You know, I grew up with those,
and so they always have a soft spot in my
heart for those. And you know we can get We're

(26:32):
not going to go down that road, Ryan, I'm not
going to take you there, but you know, the whole
real scarcity versus artificial scarcit debate and that sort of things.
That's why I lean vintage. I do collect. I don't
want to make it sound I'm one hundred percent vintage,
but I lean more that way because you know, those
cards aren't being made anymore and they're not numbered, and

(26:55):
we know there's there's not a prevalence necessarily, especially when
compare it the way cards are are produced today. You
know someone I get asked a lot about and I
know she's obviously on your your list a lot, right, Uh.
Caitlin Clark w NBA superstar. You know, I've heard her

(27:17):
and I don't think it's it's a far off comparison
as you might initially think. You know, I've heard her
be compared to like the Michael Jordan of women's basketball
and you know, kind of changing the hobby and the
game on on that level. Uh. And I agree, you know,
I know she's battling some injuries here, especially this this season.

(27:41):
She's obviously uber talented. No one can argue with that.
No shortage of her cards being graded and and that's
my argument to to that is just the the amount
of cards that are are produced of her, including a
set that was just an all Caitlyn Clark set, and

(28:02):
there's just no shortage of you know, so you know
someone you know, I always get asked, especially at my
SGC table, hey, hey, knew, when you think I should
grade Dez and Nez and what do you think about these?
And Caitlyn Clark obviously isn't a lot of those stacks.
And it's always when it comes to Caitlin Clark, I

(28:22):
always tell the person like, that's you know, beauty's in
the ie beholder, that's a card you want and Capsuley
that's that's up to you. And again with the numbers
you're seeing and just her placing the hobby, Like what's
your sort of view of Caitlin Clark as far as
just everything kind of rolled into one, like the amount

(28:44):
produced of her cards, the different sets like you said,
subsets and parallel is you know, I see stuff and
I'm like, I don't even know what that is. I
have to look it up, and I'm I'm sent up
at two shows a month. Just the sort of you're
kind of your take her place in the hobby and
even yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
One thing that you come to realize and I don't
know that here at articulate this way too often, but
it's kind of it's a power law hobby in the
sense that you know, the outliers, the extreme outliers are
the ones that sort of recognize almost all the gains
ultimately the long run of this hobby, Like there's in
between areas obviously, like that's a little bit of you know,
an extreme positioning there, but ultimately people view her as

(29:28):
that you know, this is not the right analog, but
you know it's kind of like a chat TPT comes
in and you're an investor and you say like, hey,
here's somebody who might change how the paradigm or the
landscape of how we think about things. And that's sort
of Kaitlin Clark to the average collector or people who
are looking to put money into somebody where there might
have those power law returns, which is, this is somebody
who transcends sports, who's going to mean something across many generations,

(29:50):
and that will ultimately, you know, play out in the
sense that our cards will hopefully hold value and beyond
that gain value, right a crew value. So I think
I think it's fine. I think it's fair. I actually
think that's like appropriate. But what happens and I'm you know,
I come from many years of startup world, is you
place those bets knowing that, But there's a huge risk
associated with that as well, which is you just might

(30:12):
have picked the wrong player. You might have picked the
wrong game to play or the market to be in,
and so you know, there's massive risk there. Even slowly
start to see a little bit more favor flow to
like Paige Becker's right now because Kaitlyn's not playing and
her stats were sort of don't represent sort of the
what she stands for. But ultimately that might not matter.
I mean, you know, I'm close with Adam Gray, and

(30:32):
he always speaks about like the cultural relevance outweighing sort
of the performance players have. And it's pretty hard to
sort of make an argument against for what Kaitlyn Clark
has already done for college basketball and for the WNBA.
And even if she does not have a career that
you know, she doesn't have the age of Wilson career
of you know, many MVPs and just doesn't have sort

(30:54):
of the titles to you know, reflect sort of who
she is as a player. The character and sort of
what she stands for might sort of mean far more
to the hobby, to that league and ultimate what people
care about and how they sort of you know, you know,
vote with their dollars ultimately. So I think it's fair.
I think it's interesting. You know, it's challenging to know.
That's one of the reasons we're doing that eBay report

(31:15):
now because I want people to understand like how much
money is going into kiln Clark like relative.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
To what we know.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Like one of the the ultimate metric that I'd love
to bring to market one day is like what does
it mean for this much money to be spent on
a player for somebody's cards to be prices high? Does
it mean that she has to win four championships and
four MVPs? Like, is that actually what's being valued in this?
Like what does mahomes market mean today? Is that sort
of price? You know, that's subjective, it's never going to
be a science, but it's just something that I like
to be a part of the discussion, which is just like,

(31:41):
you know, what do their values? What needs to happen
for them to actually achieve that value or sort of
support that value that's being you know, at a card
level or at a market level. And so I think
Kaitlin Clark's a fascinating story. I do think it's warranted
for people to be doing what they're doing there. But
you know, there's a ton of risk. You know, there's
certain no certainty there.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yeah, and cheef represent Like I'm glad you said that
she's represented herself well. Some some other competitors have sort
of taken their shots at her, some cheap, maybe some
not as cheap, And I think she's she's she's handled
it pretty well in sort of a rope to at
least in my opinion, sort of a role model, even

(32:19):
in just that respect alone. Obviously, when she's on the court,
she's a terrific player and a teammate from from all
reports and everything you read in here. So I think
as long as she plays, but she's already made, you know,
she could probably never play another basketball game again, Ryan,

(32:39):
and we'll still talk about her in some some respect
in regard, like you said, the cultural significance that that
already sort of been established, and all the stats are
like just on top of that, the cherry on top
of that. And you can't say that about every player.
That actually can say that about very few players, But

(33:01):
I think she definitely falls into that category, you know,
And maybe that's where the Michael Jordan comparisons, Like we
still talk about Jordan to this day, and he hasn't
played in many many moons, right, and he's still significant,
whether it's through Nike and the brand and the sneakers,
the last Dance air in a few years back, and

(33:24):
even kids today, Like I'm I'm in the teaching profession,
there's kids today who who are in my class that
were born after he retired. He wasn't even playing, uh born,
he was done playing. Who know, who Michael Jordan is.
Very few people who probably don't know who Michael Jordan is.
So and and there's certain athletes that just check those boxes,

(33:47):
and she's starting to check a lot of those in
most of them. Uh and and pretty quick, pretty quickly.
So you know, I hear the comparisons, and you know,
when you first hear that, like you think it's crazy,
But then when you look at some of these intangibles
and variables, like, it's not as crazy as you think,

(34:08):
especially if you don't count titles yet as part of
those comparisons, they're sort of they sort of make sense.
And uh, it's gonna be interesting to see she's really
in the the early innings, if you will, of her career.
Uh you know, we're the first quarter for what the
basketball terms, right of her career. And if she can

(34:30):
she can stay healthy and maybe there's a couple of
w NBA titles in the cards for I mean, that's
that's those are significant impacts and factor to come. So
that book is not is very it's the early chapters
are being written. There's a lot more potentially uh to go,
and so it's it'll be interesting, uh, and we'll see

(34:53):
where that sort of winds up.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
I think it's one of the most exciting parts of
our hobby. When we're sort of our eyes are opened
up to another something that we sort of dismissed as
being insignificant becomes increasingly significant, which is Kalen Clark or
it's pall schemes. You know, pictures were something that we're
ignored for years, and then all of a sudden, now
people are reconsidering Kalen Clark has made women's sports much
more on the radar again, which is awesome to see. Anyways,

(35:18):
I just I like one sort of we're challenged, that's why.
And I personally love to do it from my own
collecting standpoint, like what what is sort of something that
sort of understood today that could change five years from now.
And that's where I sort of like to put my
money at times. And so I love that because I
just think that's a beauty of it. It's a very
narrative driven hobby and you know it could it could
change really quickly.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, and again it's again great point by you, right that,
And we love the debate, right We love to compare
players from the same error, from one error to another,
from from across you know, Jordan to Caitlin, who are
obviously male and female, same sport. And you know, it's

(35:59):
I think it's human nature. We like to kind of
pick a stance and then defend it or say why
we're right and why someone's wrong. And as long as
it's done tactfully, that's fun, right, a long as it
doesn't cross lines it becomes personal and people don't get
that vicious or animosity about it. It's always fun to

(36:19):
have those debates. And and it's a great point, right,
what she's done, not just her, but she's really sort
of the face right, what she's done for the women's
side of the hobby. Uh, and collectors and you go
to the National and as you I'm not saying just
because of her, but just in general, you're seeing more
women collectors. You're seeing more women dealers, which is great

(36:42):
to see. We're seeing more women in the corporate spots
of the hobby. So it's refreshing to see. I think
it's important, and I think that trend needs to continue
along those lines. And uh, you know it's like when
Jordan's first hit the scene, right, he brought a lot
of people into the basketball hobby, that weren't collectors before.

(37:06):
So there's again another comparison that could be made sort
of between both of those athletes right there in a
good sort of way. So but listen, I appreciate you
coming back again. Way too long between appearances. I promise,
if it's up to me, it won't. It won't be

(37:26):
such next time. But uh, I always give the guests
sort of the closing words. Give out the websites where
people can see what you and Generate are doing. Uh,
and get on board if they're not already we are,
but uh, you know, share put any of that. Take
your time with everyone to get out there, to direct

(37:47):
anybody too.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, Now, thank you. I appreciate you having me on again.
I know you're busy and whenever, whenever you need me,
I'm here for you.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Well, you're you're, you're, you're making more excuses for me
than than I am. And I I appreciate that, Ryan,
but it was it was my band.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Thank you, No, we're good. Yeah, one other quick shout
I don't want to give. I meant to mention it
when I was talking about the eBay data things we're
bringing to market, but you know, I exchange emails with
doctor Beckett about this a few years ago, and I
just want to hat tip to him because he was
He and I have talked about sort of this concept
of a hobby GDP and this may not be the
way he envisioned it, but this is sort of my
first foray into that, and anyways, I just think it's

(38:23):
a really interesting concept. One of the most important things
about sort of what we do and what we stand
for is that feedback is extremely welcome. It's always I'm
very grateful for you know, different perspectives and things that
we could be thinking about. Wait, whether it's things you
like or things you don't, But you can email me
at Ryan at jemmy dot com. A lot of what
we publish is on Instagram or Twitter. You can find
us there and then sign up for the email. Sometimes

(38:46):
we publish things only specific email, like that iconic tractor,
So that's another good place to keep an out. And
then I would say the last thing is we have
a couple of new feature slash products we're going to
be bringing a market over the next few months as well,
so keeping it out for that.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Well, let's do when those when those hit, when those
hit the scene, let's we'll have you back on and
we'll uh we'll plug and promotos and talk about them
and some other stuff too. And I'm sure in a
few months there'll be plenty of new we won't be
short of topics. That's especially in this space in the hobby,
the hobby in general. Appreciate you, right, thank you, Thank

(39:22):
you for all the you know, I don't know if
you hear this enough, but you know, the hard work
in getting that information uh to us and uh into
the hobby. I think it's important whether you use it
for financial or just you know, just want to see
where kind of where trends are going and where the

(39:42):
market is. And you know, you can never have too
much information, you can have too little, right, So thank
you for all you do.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Thanks John much, appreciate it all right, take care.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Awesome having Ryan back on the show, h And like
I said, I promised we won't wait that long again
to have him on. But you know, since we've been
going to double episodes, we have less people on. It's
a little trickier getting folks on, but we'll have them

(40:15):
back on sooner the next time he's on. He's done
a great job with gem rate and really important tool
for the hobby now to really kind of monitor what's
going on in the grading scale. And again, like I've
always said, right, whether you like grading or not, whether
you do grading or not, grading is a huge part

(40:39):
of the hobby and it is a factor into you know,
pricing and what things go on. So like it or not,
it's it is what it is. So with that being said,
we're gonna hear from our Hobby is the People Announcer
of the Week and wrap up this week's episode.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Time for our Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
This is David Keppel. Remember the hobby is the people.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
If you'd like to be the Hobby is the People
Announcer of the Week, do a one or MP three
file and send it to Sportscard Nation PC at gmail
dot com.