What does it take to stand on the front lines of one of the most dangerous and increasingly common realities of our climate crisis era? Discover the intense world of elite wildland firefighting with Kelly Ramsey, the first woman in about a decade to join the Rowdy River Hotshots, a pseudonymously named, California-based crew of highly trained wildland firefighters. In this episode of Earth911's Sustainability In Your Ear, Kelly shares insights from her powerful new memoir, Wildfire Days: A Woman, a Hotshot Crew, and the Burning American West, which chronicles her transformative two years fighting fires and discovering herself in the process. Her journey into the masculine world of hotshot crews offers a unique perspective on who becomes one of these ultimate first responders, exploring not just the Marine-style training and intense physicality required, but also the personal transformation that comes from confronting both literal and metaphorical fires.
As we head into 2025, the conversation takes on urgent relevance, with budget cuts reducing the number of available firefighters despite wildfires growing more severe by the decade. 1,600 firefighters have been laid off this year, despite a growing need. Kelly explains the concept of Preparedness Level 5, when there are no crews left at the time fire danger peaks, and warns that understaffing could leave the nation operating at this dangerous level for much of the upcoming fire season. She also addresses the psychological and physical toll of this extreme profession, the sobering reality of firefighter mortality. She also offers practical advice for those living in wildfire-prone areas on home hardening and evacuation preparedness. Tune in to hear Kelly's powerful story of transformation, resilience, and the urgent need to support our wildfire fighting forces. Learn more about Kelly and Wildfire Days at kellylynnramsey.com.
As we head into 2025, the conversation takes on urgent relevance, with budget cuts reducing the number of available firefighters despite wildfires growing more severe by the decade. 1,600 firefighters have been laid off this year, despite a growing need. Kelly explains the concept of Preparedness Level 5, when there are no crews left at the time fire danger peaks, and warns that understaffing could leave the nation operating at this dangerous level for much of the upcoming fire season. She also addresses the psychological and physical toll of this extreme profession, the sobering reality of firefighter mortality. She also offers practical advice for those living in wildfire-prone areas on home hardening and evacuation preparedness. Tune in to hear Kelly's powerful story of transformation, resilience, and the urgent need to support our wildfire fighting forces. Learn more about Kelly and Wildfire Days at kellylynnramsey.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you
are on this beautiful planet of ours, Welcome to Sustainability
in your ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating
the transition to a sustainable carbon neutral society, and I'm
your host, Metracliffe. Thank you for joining the conversation today.
It's going to be really interesting because we're talking wildfire.
(00:31):
It's an incredibly dangerous reality in the climate crisis era,
and standing at the front lines of this new reality
are US Forest Service Hotshot crews. Each crew is made
up of between twenty and twenty two highly trained wildland firefighters.
And we're joined today by Kelly Ramsey, the first woman
in about a decade to join the Rowdy River Hotshots,
(00:52):
a California based crew. Her new book, Wildfire Days, A
Woman a hot Shot crew in the burning American West,
recounts her two years fighting fires and learning about ourself
in the process. As we head into twenty twenty five,
budget cuts have reduced the number of firefighters available to
attack wildfires that have grown more severe by the decade.
(01:13):
Kelly's memoir explores who becomes a hotshot, the intense physicality
of their work, and the impact of fire on the
American West as well as on the people who lived there.
But will we have enough of these elite firefighting forces
in the future. Only time and politics will tell. In
the meantime, getting to know these ultimate first responders can
(01:34):
help us all think about and act to prevent wildfire.
I personally had just a fraction of the experience we're
about to talk about when I was a member of
the Youth Conservation Corps in high school when a lightning
strike ignited a fire in the kit Atas National Forest
in Washington, where I was working. It was not a
time of drought when fires can spread hundreds of feet
(01:55):
in a minute. But I'll tell you something. Seeing flames
leap up a Douglas fir and spread to the next
next through the canopy is terrifying, But I also found
it centering, kind of invigorating. It was a call to
get to work, and despite the odds, a group of
kids managed to contain a fire in about an hour.
But we were lucky because we had experienced foresters with
(02:17):
us who helped direct our work. Facing the million acre
blazes that occur today is an entirely different experience, and
I've been looking forward to talking to Kelly since I
read her book and it's just out and available for
you to read today. You can learn more about Kelly
and Wildfire Days at Kellylynramsey dot com. Kelly Lynn Ramsey
(02:38):
is all one word with no space and no dash,
and Lynn is spelled with two ends. Kelly Lynnramsey dot com.
We're going to get to the conversation with Kelly right
after this quick commercial break. We'll be right back. Welcome
to the show, Kelly. It was really fascinating to read
your book and it's a pleasure to have you here.
(03:00):
How are you doing today, I'm good, Mitch.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, thank you for joining us. The Rowdy River Hotshots.
It's a really amazing group of people. What's their life like?
What's it like to be a hot shot crew?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, so Rowdy River is a pseudonym. Just wanted to
note that. So being on a hotshot crew is a
pretty intense job. When you're in the thick of the season,
you go out and you work usually sixteen hour days
at minimum, and the job involves a lot of creating
fireline and burning, doing what's called a backburn or a backfire,
(03:39):
So those are the two primary tasks. And creating fire
line it's really physically intensive. You know, you hike into
the back country, carrying usually a lot of heavyweight on
your back and really steep slopes, and then you're either
running a chainsaw and cutting down trees and brush to
open this swath of the forest in order to create
(04:01):
a fire break, or as I was, you're you're using
a handle, so you're kind of bent over digging all
day creating this line, which is like a two foot
path in a way, it's not a path, but it
looks like one of just bare mineral soil. So it's
a lot like digging ditches all day and sometimes all night.
And then yeah, the burning, they intentionally burning in.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Order to deprive the forest of fuel.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So it's a lot of really rigorous manual labor. But
it's also technical, you know, it's a job that requires
expertise in how to you know, con these activities.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
When I started reading the book, I was wondering if
I would learn what kind of people become hot shops,
And what I found is the whole book is about that,
and you go into your background, into the background of
the various people on the line with you. Tell us
about the Rowdy River crew. Why did they become firefighters?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, I would say a lot of us became firefighters
because we really loved outdoors. You know, that was a
huge part of it. But I think a lot of
people also were just sort of really driven to work hard,
to do work that is demanding and to help. I
think a lot of the people I worked with really
(05:15):
want to, you know, save communities. They want to protect
the forests so that everything doesn't burn. You know, to people,
there's a lot of different motivations for being there, but
I think most of us really wanted to do something
that was challenging and meaningful.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Challenging is kind of an understatement. It seems like the
preparation is in tensas becoming a marine. And you did
this in your thirties. What was the training like?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, so I trained. I think most people do for
at least six months in the off season before even
coming to work. So in northern California, you know, the
crews come on in somewhere between April and June. We
would usually come on in May early May. So I
started training the previous October. And it's a lot of
(06:01):
hiking carrying at least forty five pounds on your back.
But when I say hiking, I don't mean a trail
that kind of zigzags back and forth. To climb a slope,
you're literally climbing the spine of the ridge, so it'll
be forty five degrees or more, pretty.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Much vertical slope.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So a lot of the work is just, you know,
every single day through that off season or six days
a week hiking like that. But then there's also running.
You need to be able to run distance and hills
and sprints. You need to be able to run a
mile and a half in ten minutes and thirty seconds.
There's pull ups, push ups, sit ups, dips, wall sits,
(06:38):
weight training. So, as you said, I think one of
the best things you can correlate it to is like
the Navy Seals or some sort of elite military team,
because it really is so physically intense.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You describe them as elite, But these are remarkably human,
ordinary people who, like you say, love the environment. Yeah,
as you think about their experience on yours in particular,
how does it change you to love nature and defend
it in that way?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, in some ways you have to get
your heart broken again and again, right because if you
love nature and you're seeing it burn a lot of
the time. But on the other hand, it does feel
really rewarding to be able when you know, when you
can protect something, when you can defend something. I think
(07:34):
the way it changed me is that I learned that,
you know, sometimes you can make a difference and you
can protect you know, this part of the forest or
this ridge or whatever. Sometimes you can. It's not possible,
but almost every time nature does regenerate and things do
grow back, maybe not exactly the same, but it was
(07:57):
really cool to learn that there's no end to nature,
you know, like it's even when you see a forest
fully incinerated, it's not dead. You know, it's not, or
it might be at that moment, but it's not going
to be dead forever. And animals do come back to
burn areas really quickly, and birds and so yeah, just
that lesson in how the earth rebuilds itself regenerates was
(08:22):
really amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What was it like to fight your first fire? Were
you afraid, were you exhilarated or were you surprised by it?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
All of the above, I would say, Yeah, so my
first bigger fire was called the Bushfire. It was in Arizona,
outside of Mesa, And yeah, I think the first day
I was a little bit afraid. We started to hike
in this two track road and then we got pulled
back out because the fire was approaching too quickly. And
(08:52):
you know, I actually think in hindsight, we were totally fine.
We had plenty of time, you know, we didn't have
to run back out or anything. But at the time
I just didn't really know, and so I was a
little bit scared, yeah, because I was like, wait, how
fast is the fire comet? You know, are we going
to get burned over? What is happening? So I had
that moment. But then you know, I also had some
(09:12):
of my first moments of seeing a real smoke column
and doing a burn operation, so you know, burning intentionally
off of a fire line at night, and that experience
is just really kind of magical, you know, that fire
in the darkness, and usually you get a really moderate
fire behavior at night because the relative humidity is so high,
(09:36):
so kind of doing this like safer situation of burning.
So yeah, all of those things were just sort of
like I felt like my mouth was just constantly falling open.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
As I was like, wow, what is this?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Wow, look at that helicopter dropping water. You know, just
like everything so new.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
It sounds like a pagan ritual.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Why ohs, Yeah, I mean, and there is that. There's
that way that something kind of like primal and ancestral
in us is connected to fire. You know, fire in
many ways, at least for early human beings, was our
source of heat and safety and cooking, and you know,
(10:16):
so in so many ways. While now fire has become
this destructive force on the landscape and this you know,
disaster and catastrophe, many times, fire originally was this life
giver for us. So I think something in a human
being still connects to that. And you see fire and
you know that it's a power and you know, can
be a power for good or ill.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I've had a very small version of the experience of
fighting a fire, but can you tell us what it
feels like and sounds like to be fighting a major fire?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, So, a major wildfire that's fully involved, especially one
that's sort of like running crown fire or something that's
torching a lot. It's very loud the fire itself, if
it's torching multiple trees, it kind of sounds like the
roar of a jet engine. You know, it's like a
hug sound in the background, So you have that happening.
(11:13):
But then the actual fire fighting apparatus is really loud
as well, So you'll have helicopters slicing through the sky,
and you'll have multiple crews and a lot of chatter
back and forth on radios, and then you'll have chainsaws
going as you're constructing the line, people shouting, So there's
really so much going on at once. And then if
you're if you're going direct, as we call it, if
(11:34):
you're right next to the flames at any point you
know there obviously is that like crackling and that roar
of things going up in flames can be like really
close to you. Obviously if the fire is too big,
we're not getting that close. But yeah, it's it's a
wild scene. There's a lot going on at once, and
you have to really, you know, have your head on straight,
(11:56):
be paying attention, be alert, and you know, follow the
directions of your leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I got the impression as I was reading that a
lot of that you almost go on automatic and follow
that guidance that you're talking about. But then there's a
after fire time of reflection where you experience what you've
been through. And there's a scene in the book where
you see yourself in a mirror at home. You're on
R and R for the first time during your first season.
(12:22):
Talk about the toll on a person's body.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, so not only are you absolutely filthy, you know,
you don't shower for usually fourteen days while you're on
an assignment, so you're covered in dirt, you're covered in ash.
A lot of times you have sort of like you
can see where the ash covers your legs and then
ends at the top of your sock, you know, and
it's white where your socks were. But then there's wear
(12:50):
and tear on the feet. So a lot of times
you have, you know, blistered.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Feet, sore feet.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I had like a toe that went numb, My big
toe went numb and it just stayed numb for a
better part of two years. And then your hands, it
depends if you're digging or if you're running a chainsaw.
But if you're digging as I was, your hands get
really calloused and blistered and then kind of like the
calluses will peel off and you'll form new calluses. Sometimes
they're bleeding where your pack hits your shoulders. If you're
(13:17):
digging a lot, I.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Got like raw chafed spots there.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And then there's a lot of like people have joint
problems from running chainsaws, people have joint problems in their
knees from all the hiking underweight. Yeah, it's just kind
of endless.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Then you've got like ash in your ears, ash in
your nose, ash in the creases of your skin. And
then you know, if you've inhaled a lot of smoke,
which we all have, some people will develop a chronic
cough by the end of the season. So there's yeah,
wear and tear on the body outside and in.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
You're clearly smiling as you say this. How can that be?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, it's so strange. There's just something about being out
there and working that hard and being filthy. It's so gratifying.
It's like nothing else that I've ever done and will
ever do, and that even the being filthy and being
in pain, is this amazing experience. Like I loved it
(14:17):
and I miss it, And yeah, when I think about
being that dirty, I'm like, ah, I just want to
go back out there and be that dirty and tired again.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It was great, okay, because you were making a difference.
I get it, I get it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Another major part of the book is the tensions involved
in being the only or one of a few women
in an intentionally masculine profession. Can you encapsulate that maybe
in one or a few words.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Sure. I think when you're the only woman, there can
be a tendency for you to be tokenized. So you
sort of come to represent all women in the job,
and that can be really difficult because obviously you're just
one person. Women, like all people, are infinite and varied
and can look many ways. But for me, I felt
(15:05):
that I really needed to be excellent in order to
prove not only that I could do the job and
be competent and be respected, but that women could. So
I really took on that responsibility to represent all women
and embraced it in a way and was like, well,
I'm going to make women look great or you know,
do my best too. But it gets more complicated than
(15:27):
when you have multiple women and then they start to
be compared to each other. Yeah, I don't think anyone's
doing this intentionally. You know. I had a great crew.
They really did support me in so many ways. They
were respectful, but I think it's almost this unconscious you know,
it's that unconscious bias that happens, and people are then saying, well,
we have this one woman and she does things this way.
(15:48):
Now we have a new woman. Why isn't she doing
things in the way that we now think women do things?
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, a little bit of falling back into a pattern
and just wanting to run on automatic is part of it.
But the dynamic that happened when another woman joined the
crew was really.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Interesting, really interesting and really complicated. And you know, I
am not innocent in that because I had sort of
really adapted to be kind of like one of the guys.
And my whole approach was like I'll just be as
tough as possible, I'll never complain, I'll offer to carry
the heaviest things, and I will just try to blend
(16:23):
in here, you know. And when another woman joined, her
approach was different, and I automatically I kind of fell
into that same thing where I compared us to each
other and I was like, well, she's going to be
a woman here. She should do things my way because
it's worked for me, you know, Like I've gained a
place here where I feel like I am respected and
(16:44):
I'm not thought of all the time as the girl
on the crew. I'm just thought of as a crew member.
So if she wants to do that, she should do
things like I did. And that wasn't really fair of me,
you know, in hindsight of course, like at the time,
I didn't see that at all, But yeah, it became
very tense between her and a lot of the people
and the crew, and then between the two of us,
(17:05):
and it's just so unfortunate. But I've heard that story
from a lot of other women in firefighting that a
similar dynamic has played out, especially when there's only the two,
So that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
People obviously learned a lot from the experience and romance
and sex, and the problem of figuring oneself out is
it runs throughout the entire story. How would you explain
to somebody how an extreme profession like this change is one.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I mean, I feel like it's a it's a crucible
of sorts, you know. I was just talking to another
female firefighter about this the other day, that it can
bring out the very best in you. So you know,
you're asked to dig so deep and to find more
strength and endurance than you ever thought was possible. So
for me, I learned that I have much more capacity
(17:56):
to keep going than I ever thought I did. You
know that I can. I'm at hill I never thought
I could get up. So you have this, you know,
brings out the very best human qualities, like things I
never thought I could do, I learned to do. But
on the other hand, like any crucible, like any really
stressful situation, it can also bring out your worst or
(18:18):
just sort of can bring out drama and interpersonal conflicts.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And yeah, there's always like.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Some romance going down between somebody and somebody else because
you're constantly together, right, Like you're just living together twenty
four hours a day for six months, So obviously there's
going to be a downside to that. So yeah, it's
like the very best and the very worst.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
An extreme, Yeah, total extremes.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
This is a great place to stop and take a
quick break. We'll be right back and now let's get
back to the conversation with Kelly Ramsey. She's the author
of Wildfire Days, A Woman, a High Chot Crew, and
The Burning American West. Kelly, A lot has been changing
(19:05):
in the American West Over the course of the past decade,
fires have exploded in size, but there's also a profound
change in the way that we're thinking about protecting the forest.
And I'm wondering, how you see the Forest Service firefighting
force is changing as the prevalence of wildfire increases, and
there are so many budget cuts from Washington, DC. What
(19:28):
do you feel like we're headed into.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And I feel like I don't even want to say
we're headed into. I think we are already in have
been in a crisis of staffing in federal firefighting, the
Forest Service, but also you know, the Department of the Interior,
all federal fire fighting. There's been so much attrition in
the past, particularly I would say five to seven years.
(19:54):
A lot of that is caused by, as you said,
the increase in fire intensity, lens the duration of the season,
you know, the job just becoming an already hard job
becoming harder. But it's also due to a lot of
problems with pay at the federal level. You know, there
was recently a permanent pay increase approved by Congress, which
(20:18):
is great, that's progress, but while the un firefighters who
work for the federal government still aren't paid what they
pay you know, cal fire firefighters or municipal firefighters. So
you've seen a lot of people leaving for better pay
in firefighting outside of the federal government. But it's also
just the you know, the duration of the season and
(20:39):
the assignments and the difficulty of the job leading to
incredible mental health problems, and so people have been leaving
for all kinds of reasons, but whatever their individual you know, justification,
they have been stepping away from federal firefighting. And then
on top of that, you have everything that the current
administration is doing in terms of you know, not hiring
(21:02):
back seasonals, letting people go who might have you know,
ancillary fire responsibilities attached to their job, even if they're
not a primary firefighter. So it's just it's a total
cluster right now, and it really frightens me because we
already were understaffed on a lot of fires that I
went to in twenty twenty in twenty twenty one, and
(21:23):
that you know, that problem is deepening. So we're going
to see even more fires where the incident commanders are
asking for resources and they're unable to get the resources
they need because there simply aren't enough firefighters to go around.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That is a really interesting idea that you introduce. And
there's the preparedness levels that we have with regard to
our readiness to fight fire, and preparedness level five is
the worst case situation. What's going on in preparedness level five?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Preparedness level five, Yeah, all the resources or most of
the resources are already committed. So say you know, you
have one hundred hot shots crews in this country, and
at a preparedness level of two or three, maybe thirty
percent of those I'm just making up a percentage.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Thirty percent of those are already committed to fires. So
a huge incident sparks off in southern Oregon, right, and
that incident commander calls for five hot shot crews or
ten hot shot crews, and they're able to get them.
The order is filled, right, and those resources show up
and they start putting in fireline and they're able to catch,
you know, the leading edge of the fire. At preparedness
(22:32):
level five, all hundred hot shot crews might already be committed,
or ninety five of them might already be committed. So
that fire sparks, that incident commander calls for ten hot
shot crews and they're only able to get one or two.
So then you have this situation where that crew is
sent to try to catch a five or ten mile
(22:56):
stretch of fire line and they only really have the
capacity to catch a mile, you know, And so you're
going to see fires that are lost or fires that
take way longer to contain. And you're also then putting
that crew or that engine, or that bulldozer or that helicopter,
whatever the resource is, you're putting them in danger. Yeah,
(23:16):
so I think that's what you're going to see happening.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
You think we're going to be at PL five most
of the season going forward, until we start to staff back.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Up, I imagine. I mean, if they're transparent about what
the resources are and where they're assigned. One of the problems,
to my mind is that we never even know exactly
how many firefighters are employed. You know, it's hard to
get clear numbers. So but yeah, I think we're going
(23:46):
to be at a PL five earlier this year for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You just mentioned putting the crews in danger, and obviously
as the resources are stretched further and further, that's going
to be more likely. There's a passage where you talk
about how the rowdy river hotshots are are being trained,
about the experience of the Storm Canyon fire back in
the nineties, in which fourteen firefighters died when the fire
raced up the hill and basically trap them. How dangerous
(24:12):
this is the job? And are we getting better at
reducing the danger of the job?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I mean, the job is it's quite dangerous. There are
usually fatality incidents every season or every year, and I
think the average in recent years has been right around
fifteen to twenty fatalities each season, and it kind of
goes up and down, but in general, I do not
(24:40):
think that number has really dropped a lot over time.
We do so much training, We do so much education,
you know, about how to avoid you know, you don't
want to construct fire line with fire below you. There
are these like watch out situations and these standard firefighting orders,
and we try to avoid these risks to some extent.
(25:01):
The job is just risky and it's unpredictable, and so
sometimes things just happen. So yeah, I don't think the
profession is really getting any safer. We try, but you know,
you can't keep every tree in the forest from falling
over and hitting a firefighter. You cannot prevent every boulder
from rolling down a hill. So you know, these things really,
(25:23):
sadly just still happen, and the risk is there and
you just have to be aware of it and try
to protect yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
There was a passage where you described a tree falling
on somebody and they actually weren't hurt. That was I
thought that would be the turning point where you lost someone.
But it's surprising what happens in the field.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah. Yeah, And you know, the tree, luckily wasn't a
large diameter tree. It was about an eight inch diameter tree,
and he had his heart hat on and it struck
his hard hat and gave him a concussion. But yeah,
he was really uninjured, which is very lucky. That's not
always what happens, but yeah, it is. It is wild
(26:04):
what happens in the field. And it also is pretty amazing.
We train so much on extracting somebody, so you know,
putting somebody on a backboard and getting them out of
the back country and to the hospital, and it's pretty
amazing with how much we have drilled that, how seamlessly
everybody springs to action and gets that person backboarded, you know,
(26:24):
in minutes.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
As the environment warms, it's also going to be harder
to work outside. How do you think the advent of
even greater global warming is going to change this profession?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, I think there will probably be just more periods
of the day where you have to shut down. You know,
I've already seen that happen sometimes when we're in the
Southwest in June and it was one hundred and sixteen degrees.
You know, you reach this point where you can't run
the chainsaws because they will geyser fuel when it's too hot.
(26:59):
And obviously also your body has a lot of trouble
operating when it's one hundred and sixteen degrees and you're
doing manual labor, but you know, the equipment won't even work.
So I think I've had those times where you just
have to like find some shade, sit down for a
couple hours, wait for the temperature to drop in order
to work again. I think you're going to see that.
But of course, then when you have to shut crews
(27:21):
down during that time of day, then the fire is
just allowed to kind of run or checked. So I
think probably you'll see more of that.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know, I mentioned earlier that your backstory runs through
the book, and I don't want to unfold all of
it because people should read the book to find out.
But particularly you talk about your father's self and family
destroying behavior, and you make a comment near the end
of the book about the fact that the experience of
fighting wildfire provided you with a perspective on his and
(27:51):
this is a quote fire of his self destruction. Is
that partly what took you to the forest?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I think it is.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
So.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I don't think I really knew that at the time,
but in hindsight, you know, my childhood and my young
adulthood even were pretty difficult, having this alcoholic father, feeling
like my family was fractured. And I think, like so
many of us who love the outdoors and who loved
the wilderness, I was going outside trying to find something,
(28:24):
so partly trying to find myself, trying to heal myself,
but also looking for somewhere that I could fit and
a place to belong, maybe a new family. So, without
spoiling the book, I think that is what I went
into that job, unconsciously seeking, you know, where can I
(28:45):
fit in, Where can I find a sense of meaning
and a place that sense.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Of self revelation. Really comes through. It was a really
enjoyable read. By the way, thank you for writing it.
What would you tell a young person who cares about
the wilderness if they asked you whether they should be
I'm a hot shot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, I would say do it?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah? I would also say that there are there are
other great ways to participate, and if they don't want
to do something as intense and as risky as being
a wildland firefighter, there are a lot of crews that
also volunteer organizations who are working on the preventative side,
so doing prescribed burning, indigenous cultural burning. There are a
(29:30):
lot more partnerships now between indigenous tribes and the federal
government and nonprofits that are trying to do this really
really critical work. So to my mind, if I ever
go back into something fire related, I would try to
do the prescribed fire side of things, because we need
so much more intentional fire in order to prevent these
(29:52):
incredibly severe.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Catastrophic wildfires.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I guess I would say, you know, if you
want to be a hot shot and you're up for
the challenge, you should definitely do it. It's the most
incredible job. But if you don't want to do something kind.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Of at that level, there's a lot of other.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Ways that you can get involved and try to you know,
protect the forest, protect our communities.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, and I think that's that's great advice because there
are some amazing programs, for instance, led by the National
Forest Foundation, where they're seeking to engage local communities in
those prescribed burns and other fuel reduction activities. Absolutely, as
you think about the wildfire scenario that we face, what's
your advice for people who live in wildfire prone areas
(30:36):
I do? For instance, what should I be thinking about?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, well, okay, so you should be thinking about your
defensible space, so clearing brush even you know, dead leaves
against the side of your house, clearing everything out within
that one hundred feet around your structures, and also where
you can house hardening, so maybe changing the materials or
(31:03):
finding ways to make your house less flammable essentially, Also
you know, having your go bag ready, having your things ready,
and really paying attention to those evacuation warnings and leaving
when they say to leave, Like you not only risk
your own life if you stay, but you risk the
lives of firefighters who might come in to try to
(31:24):
get you to evacuate. But I would also say, you know,
just adding to what we were just talking about in
terms of fuels reduction and prescribe burning, that it would
be great to find your communities. You know a lot
of people have these like fire safe councils in their
community or some other group that is trying to protect
(31:45):
the entire town or the entire county or whatever it
is from wildfires, and so you can get involved in
doing prescribed burning, fuels reduction, maybe creating fuel breaks or
just advocating for that work. So I think really getting
involved in the prevention side at your local level is
a great thing to do in addition to just you know,
protecting your property and yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
That's great advice because we cannot bite this on our own.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
We have to pull together to do so absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
And you know, as we've seen, the federal government is
stretched too thin and is really struggling right now. So
we need these local partnerships, nonprofits, community members to step
up and do what they can.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
So you just finished your book, it's out. Now what's
next for you?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, I have an eight month old baby, so between
the book and the baby, I've been pretty busy with that.
But I think I was just thinking about this. As
I said, I would like to get back into some
sort of fuels reduction work or prescribe burning. So I
think I probably will be looking at getting back into
the woods, maybe next summer when my daughter's a little
(32:51):
bit older.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Well, Kelly, thank you so much for spending time with
us today. It's been a fascinating conversation and it's an
inspiring read. Thanks for the book.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Mitch, I love talking to you.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Welcome back. You've been listening to my conversation with Kelly Ramsey,
author of the new book Wildfire Days, A woman a
hotshot crew in the burning American West. Kelly spent two
years on the fire line, and you can learn more
about her and the work she's continuing to do for
forest health at Kelly Lynn Ramsey dot com. Kelly Lynn
Ramsey's all one word, no space, no dash, and Lynn
(33:29):
is spelled with two ends. Kelly Lynn Ramsey dot com.
We live in a time of growing wildfire danger and
estrange dichotomy that lionizes some types of heroes, particularly entrepreneurs
and politicians, while largely ignoring the everyday heroism that characterizes
American life. We usually hear about firefighters only when they die,
(33:51):
but it's their daily choice to enter the fire zone
that provides the security that we can all feel at home.
Ordinary heroism doesn't get the credit it deserves. We all
Americans and people in every nation, demonstrate the commitment to
serve others, to serve nature, and show the care for
the world that can be our climate salvation someday if
(34:11):
we all stick to the task of protecting and ultimately
restoring the natural world. That's a new and important heroism
that we need to practice. Kelly talked about going outside
to find herself, something that all of us experience when
we step beyond the city limits, when we go over
the hill and explore the wilds. Humans have been doing
this well since the beginning, and it is why our
(34:34):
species stands on every continent today. And unfortunately, the climate
era will require more ordinary heroism, whether by participating and
prescribed burns near your home or by people willing to
endure the extremes of fighting wildfire. These hot shot crews
are extraordinary people, folks. But the question is will Americans
get the opportunity to support the force As the Trump
(34:56):
administration slashes federal budgets. January l to twenty five poll
by More in Common found strong bipartisan support for wildfire
relief just before the cuts to the National Parks, Forest
Service and other federal land management agencies began. In fact,
seventy eight percent of Americans, including ninety percent of Democrats
who were pulled, and seventy two percent of Republicans supported
(35:20):
federal assistance to California after the devastating Los Angeles wildfires. Now, however,
even FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is on the
chopping block at a time when disaster preparation is more
needed than ever, and we need more firefighters. As the
US Forest Service struggles to staff for a summer that
is expected to see more fire, not less. As Kelly explained,
(35:43):
we will likely be at preparedness level five for more
of the fire season, and that's when the call for
a hotshot crew will go unanswered for lack of staffing,
leading the even greater danger for those brave firefighters who
can answer the call. So it's a dream time calling
for extreme bravery and commitment. Each of us can do
(36:04):
our part to protect our communities. In fact, it is
only by working together that we create our communities. If
you live at the Urban Wilderness Interface. Harden your home,
perhaps by installing a metal roof and file resistance siding,
create a one hundred foot perimeter around your house with
no vegetation, and stay tuned to warning systems so that
you can evacuate for your safety and that of the
(36:27):
firefighters who are dedicated to protecting you and your home.
And I strongly suggest, in fact, I encourage you to
take the time to read Wildfire Days, because you're going
to come away with a greater appreciation for the heroes
battling blazes in the mountains of the American West. And
I hope you take a moment to check out the
more than five hundred episodes of Sustainability in your ear
that we've produced to date. You know, writing review on
(36:50):
your favorite podcast platform about us will help your neighbors
find us. So, folks, you're the amplifiers that can spread
more ideas to create less waste and to prevent at wildfire.
Tell your friends, family, and coworkers. They can find us
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, or whatever purveyor of
podcast goodness they prefer. Thank you for your support. I'm
(37:12):
Mitch Racliffe. This is Earth nine one one, and we
will be back with another Innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks,
take care of yourself, take care of one another, and
let's all take care of this beautiful planet of ours.
Have a green day.
Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you
are on this beautiful planet of ours, Welcome to Sustainability
in your ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating
the transition to a sustainable carbon neutral society, and I'm
your host, Metracliffe. Thank you for joining the conversation today.
It's going to be really interesting because we're talking wildfire.
(00:31):
It's an incredibly dangerous reality in the climate crisis era,
and standing at the front lines of this new reality
are US Forest Service Hotshot crews. Each crew is made
up of between twenty and twenty two highly trained wildland firefighters.
And we're joined today by Kelly Ramsey, the first woman
in about a decade to join the Rowdy River Hotshots,
(00:52):
a California based crew. Her new book, Wildfire Days, A
Woman a hot Shot crew in the burning American West,
recounts her two years fighting fires and learning about ourself
in the process. As we head into twenty twenty five,
budget cuts have reduced the number of firefighters available to
attack wildfires that have grown more severe by the decade.
(01:13):
Kelly's memoir explores who becomes a hotshot, the intense physicality
of their work, and the impact of fire on the
American West as well as on the people who lived there.
But will we have enough of these elite firefighting forces
in the future. Only time and politics will tell. In
the meantime, getting to know these ultimate first responders can
(01:34):
help us all think about and act to prevent wildfire.
I personally had just a fraction of the experience we're
about to talk about when I was a member of
the Youth Conservation Corps in high school when a lightning
strike ignited a fire in the kit Atas National Forest
in Washington, where I was working. It was not a
time of drought when fires can spread hundreds of feet
(01:55):
in a minute. But I'll tell you something. Seeing flames
leap up a Douglas fir and spread to the next
next through the canopy is terrifying, But I also found
it centering, kind of invigorating. It was a call to
get to work, and despite the odds, a group of
kids managed to contain a fire in about an hour.
But we were lucky because we had experienced foresters with
(02:17):
us who helped direct our work. Facing the million acre
blazes that occur today is an entirely different experience, and
I've been looking forward to talking to Kelly since I
read her book and it's just out and available for
you to read today. You can learn more about Kelly
and Wildfire Days at Kellylynramsey dot com. Kelly Lynn Ramsey
(02:38):
is all one word with no space and no dash,
and Lynn is spelled with two ends. Kelly Lynnramsey dot com.
We're going to get to the conversation with Kelly right
after this quick commercial break. We'll be right back. Welcome
to the show, Kelly. It was really fascinating to read
your book and it's a pleasure to have you here.
(03:00):
How are you doing today, I'm good, Mitch.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, thank you for joining us. The Rowdy River Hotshots.
It's a really amazing group of people. What's their life like?
What's it like to be a hot shot crew?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, so Rowdy River is a pseudonym. Just wanted to
note that. So being on a hotshot crew is a
pretty intense job. When you're in the thick of the season,
you go out and you work usually sixteen hour days
at minimum, and the job involves a lot of creating
fireline and burning, doing what's called a backburn or a backfire,
(03:39):
So those are the two primary tasks. And creating fire
line it's really physically intensive. You know, you hike into
the back country, carrying usually a lot of heavyweight on
your back and really steep slopes, and then you're either
running a chainsaw and cutting down trees and brush to
open this swath of the forest in order to create
(04:01):
a fire break, or as I was, you're you're using
a handle, so you're kind of bent over digging all
day creating this line, which is like a two foot
path in a way, it's not a path, but it
looks like one of just bare mineral soil. So it's
a lot like digging ditches all day and sometimes all night.
And then yeah, the burning, they intentionally burning in.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Order to deprive the forest of fuel.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So it's a lot of really rigorous manual labor. But
it's also technical, you know, it's a job that requires
expertise in how to you know, con these activities.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
When I started reading the book, I was wondering if
I would learn what kind of people become hot shops,
And what I found is the whole book is about that,
and you go into your background, into the background of
the various people on the line with you. Tell us
about the Rowdy River crew. Why did they become firefighters?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, I would say a lot of us became firefighters
because we really loved outdoors. You know, that was a
huge part of it. But I think a lot of
people also were just sort of really driven to work hard,
to do work that is demanding and to help. I
think a lot of the people I worked with really
(05:15):
want to, you know, save communities. They want to protect
the forests so that everything doesn't burn. You know, to people,
there's a lot of different motivations for being there, but
I think most of us really wanted to do something
that was challenging and meaningful.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Challenging is kind of an understatement. It seems like the
preparation is in tensas becoming a marine. And you did
this in your thirties. What was the training like?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, so I trained. I think most people do for
at least six months in the off season before even
coming to work. So in northern California, you know, the
crews come on in somewhere between April and June. We
would usually come on in May early May. So I
started training the previous October. And it's a lot of
(06:01):
hiking carrying at least forty five pounds on your back.
But when I say hiking, I don't mean a trail
that kind of zigzags back and forth. To climb a slope,
you're literally climbing the spine of the ridge, so it'll
be forty five degrees or more, pretty.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Much vertical slope.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
So a lot of the work is just, you know,
every single day through that off season or six days
a week hiking like that. But then there's also running.
You need to be able to run distance and hills
and sprints. You need to be able to run a
mile and a half in ten minutes and thirty seconds.
There's pull ups, push ups, sit ups, dips, wall sits,
(06:38):
weight training. So, as you said, I think one of
the best things you can correlate it to is like
the Navy Seals or some sort of elite military team,
because it really is so physically intense.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You describe them as elite, But these are remarkably human,
ordinary people who, like you say, love the environment. Yeah,
as you think about their experience on yours in particular,
how does it change you to love nature and defend
it in that way?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, in some ways you have to get
your heart broken again and again, right because if you
love nature and you're seeing it burn a lot of
the time. But on the other hand, it does feel
really rewarding to be able when you know, when you
can protect something, when you can defend something. I think
(07:34):
the way it changed me is that I learned that,
you know, sometimes you can make a difference and you
can protect you know, this part of the forest or
this ridge or whatever. Sometimes you can. It's not possible,
but almost every time nature does regenerate and things do
grow back, maybe not exactly the same, but it was
(07:57):
really cool to learn that there's no end to nature,
you know, like it's even when you see a forest
fully incinerated, it's not dead. You know, it's not, or
it might be at that moment, but it's not going
to be dead forever. And animals do come back to
burn areas really quickly, and birds and so yeah, just
that lesson in how the earth rebuilds itself regenerates was
(08:22):
really amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What was it like to fight your first fire? Were
you afraid, were you exhilarated or were you surprised by it?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
All of the above, I would say, Yeah, so my
first bigger fire was called the Bushfire. It was in Arizona,
outside of Mesa, And yeah, I think the first day
I was a little bit afraid. We started to hike
in this two track road and then we got pulled
back out because the fire was approaching too quickly. And
(08:52):
you know, I actually think in hindsight, we were totally fine.
We had plenty of time, you know, we didn't have
to run back out or anything. But at the time
I just didn't really know, and so I was a
little bit scared, yeah, because I was like, wait, how
fast is the fire comet? You know, are we going
to get burned over? What is happening? So I had
that moment. But then you know, I also had some
(09:12):
of my first moments of seeing a real smoke column
and doing a burn operation, so you know, burning intentionally
off of a fire line at night, and that experience
is just really kind of magical, you know, that fire
in the darkness, and usually you get a really moderate
fire behavior at night because the relative humidity is so high,
(09:36):
so kind of doing this like safer situation of burning.
So yeah, all of those things were just sort of
like I felt like my mouth was just constantly falling open.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
As I was like, wow, what is this?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Wow, look at that helicopter dropping water. You know, just
like everything so new.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
It sounds like a pagan ritual.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Why ohs, Yeah, I mean, and there is that. There's
that way that something kind of like primal and ancestral
in us is connected to fire. You know, fire in
many ways, at least for early human beings, was our
source of heat and safety and cooking, and you know,
(10:16):
so in so many ways. While now fire has become
this destructive force on the landscape and this you know,
disaster and catastrophe, many times, fire originally was this life
giver for us. So I think something in a human
being still connects to that. And you see fire and
you know that it's a power and you know, can
be a power for good or ill.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I've had a very small version of the experience of
fighting a fire, but can you tell us what it
feels like and sounds like to be fighting a major fire?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, So, a major wildfire that's fully involved, especially one
that's sort of like running crown fire or something that's
torching a lot. It's very loud the fire itself, if
it's torching multiple trees, it kind of sounds like the
roar of a jet engine. You know, it's like a
hug sound in the background, So you have that happening.
(11:13):
But then the actual fire fighting apparatus is really loud
as well, So you'll have helicopters slicing through the sky,
and you'll have multiple crews and a lot of chatter
back and forth on radios, and then you'll have chainsaws
going as you're constructing the line, people shouting, So there's
really so much going on at once. And then if
you're if you're going direct, as we call it, if
(11:34):
you're right next to the flames at any point you
know there obviously is that like crackling and that roar
of things going up in flames can be like really
close to you. Obviously if the fire is too big,
we're not getting that close. But yeah, it's it's a
wild scene. There's a lot going on at once, and
you have to really, you know, have your head on straight,
(11:56):
be paying attention, be alert, and you know, follow the
directions of your leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I got the impression as I was reading that a
lot of that you almost go on automatic and follow
that guidance that you're talking about. But then there's a
after fire time of reflection where you experience what you've
been through. And there's a scene in the book where
you see yourself in a mirror at home. You're on
R and R for the first time during your first season.
(12:22):
Talk about the toll on a person's body.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, so not only are you absolutely filthy, you know,
you don't shower for usually fourteen days while you're on
an assignment, so you're covered in dirt, you're covered in ash.
A lot of times you have sort of like you
can see where the ash covers your legs and then
ends at the top of your sock, you know, and
it's white where your socks were. But then there's wear
(12:50):
and tear on the feet. So a lot of times
you have, you know, blistered.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Feet, sore feet.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I had like a toe that went numb, My big
toe went numb and it just stayed numb for a
better part of two years. And then your hands, it
depends if you're digging or if you're running a chainsaw.
But if you're digging as I was, your hands get
really calloused and blistered and then kind of like the
calluses will peel off and you'll form new calluses. Sometimes
they're bleeding where your pack hits your shoulders. If you're
(13:17):
digging a lot, I.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Got like raw chafed spots there.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And then there's a lot of like people have joint
problems from running chainsaws, people have joint problems in their
knees from all the hiking underweight. Yeah, it's just kind
of endless.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Then you've got like ash in your ears, ash in
your nose, ash in the creases of your skin. And
then you know, if you've inhaled a lot of smoke,
which we all have, some people will develop a chronic
cough by the end of the season. So there's yeah,
wear and tear on the body outside and in.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
You're clearly smiling as you say this. How can that be?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, it's so strange. There's just something about being out
there and working that hard and being filthy. It's so gratifying.
It's like nothing else that I've ever done and will
ever do, and that even the being filthy and being
in pain, is this amazing experience. Like I loved it
(14:17):
and I miss it, And yeah, when I think about
being that dirty, I'm like, ah, I just want to
go back out there and be that dirty and tired again.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It was great, okay, because you were making a difference.
I get it, I get it.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Another major part of the book is the tensions involved
in being the only or one of a few women
in an intentionally masculine profession. Can you encapsulate that maybe
in one or a few words.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Sure. I think when you're the only woman, there can
be a tendency for you to be tokenized. So you
sort of come to represent all women in the job,
and that can be really difficult because obviously you're just
one person. Women, like all people, are infinite and varied
and can look many ways. But for me, I felt
(15:05):
that I really needed to be excellent in order to
prove not only that I could do the job and
be competent and be respected, but that women could. So
I really took on that responsibility to represent all women
and embraced it in a way and was like, well,
I'm going to make women look great or you know,
do my best too. But it gets more complicated than
(15:27):
when you have multiple women and then they start to
be compared to each other. Yeah, I don't think anyone's
doing this intentionally. You know. I had a great crew.
They really did support me in so many ways. They
were respectful, but I think it's almost this unconscious you know,
it's that unconscious bias that happens, and people are then saying, well,
we have this one woman and she does things this way.
(15:48):
Now we have a new woman. Why isn't she doing
things in the way that we now think women do things?
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, a little bit of falling back into a pattern
and just wanting to run on automatic is part of it.
But the dynamic that happened when another woman joined the
crew was really.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Interesting, really interesting and really complicated. And you know, I
am not innocent in that because I had sort of
really adapted to be kind of like one of the guys.
And my whole approach was like I'll just be as
tough as possible, I'll never complain, I'll offer to carry
the heaviest things, and I will just try to blend
(16:23):
in here, you know. And when another woman joined, her
approach was different, and I automatically I kind of fell
into that same thing where I compared us to each
other and I was like, well, she's going to be
a woman here. She should do things my way because
it's worked for me, you know, Like I've gained a
place here where I feel like I am respected and
(16:44):
I'm not thought of all the time as the girl
on the crew. I'm just thought of as a crew member.
So if she wants to do that, she should do
things like I did. And that wasn't really fair of me,
you know, in hindsight of course, like at the time,
I didn't see that at all, But yeah, it became
very tense between her and a lot of the people
and the crew, and then between the two of us,
(17:05):
and it's just so unfortunate. But I've heard that story
from a lot of other women in firefighting that a
similar dynamic has played out, especially when there's only the two,
So that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
People obviously learned a lot from the experience and romance
and sex, and the problem of figuring oneself out is
it runs throughout the entire story. How would you explain
to somebody how an extreme profession like this change is one.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I mean, I feel like it's a it's a crucible
of sorts, you know. I was just talking to another
female firefighter about this the other day, that it can
bring out the very best in you. So you know,
you're asked to dig so deep and to find more
strength and endurance than you ever thought was possible. So
for me, I learned that I have much more capacity
(17:56):
to keep going than I ever thought I did. You
know that I can. I'm at hill I never thought
I could get up. So you have this, you know,
brings out the very best human qualities, like things I
never thought I could do, I learned to do. But
on the other hand, like any crucible, like any really
stressful situation, it can also bring out your worst or
(18:18):
just sort of can bring out drama and interpersonal conflicts.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And yeah, there's always like.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Some romance going down between somebody and somebody else because
you're constantly together, right, Like you're just living together twenty
four hours a day for six months, So obviously there's
going to be a downside to that. So yeah, it's
like the very best and the very worst.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
An extreme, Yeah, total extremes.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
This is a great place to stop and take a
quick break. We'll be right back and now let's get
back to the conversation with Kelly Ramsey. She's the author
of Wildfire Days, A Woman, a High Chot Crew, and
The Burning American West. Kelly, A lot has been changing
(19:05):
in the American West Over the course of the past decade,
fires have exploded in size, but there's also a profound
change in the way that we're thinking about protecting the forest.
And I'm wondering, how you see the Forest Service firefighting
force is changing as the prevalence of wildfire increases, and
there are so many budget cuts from Washington, DC. What
(19:28):
do you feel like we're headed into.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
And I feel like I don't even want to say
we're headed into. I think we are already in have
been in a crisis of staffing in federal firefighting, the
Forest Service, but also you know, the Department of the Interior,
all federal fire fighting. There's been so much attrition in
the past, particularly I would say five to seven years.
(19:54):
A lot of that is caused by, as you said,
the increase in fire intensity, lens the duration of the season,
you know, the job just becoming an already hard job
becoming harder. But it's also due to a lot of
problems with pay at the federal level. You know, there
was recently a permanent pay increase approved by Congress, which
(20:18):
is great, that's progress, but while the un firefighters who
work for the federal government still aren't paid what they
pay you know, cal fire firefighters or municipal firefighters. So
you've seen a lot of people leaving for better pay
in firefighting outside of the federal government. But it's also
just the you know, the duration of the season and
(20:39):
the assignments and the difficulty of the job leading to
incredible mental health problems, and so people have been leaving
for all kinds of reasons, but whatever their individual you know, justification,
they have been stepping away from federal firefighting. And then
on top of that, you have everything that the current
administration is doing in terms of you know, not hiring
(21:02):
back seasonals, letting people go who might have you know,
ancillary fire responsibilities attached to their job, even if they're
not a primary firefighter. So it's just it's a total
cluster right now, and it really frightens me because we
already were understaffed on a lot of fires that I
went to in twenty twenty in twenty twenty one, and
(21:23):
that you know, that problem is deepening. So we're going
to see even more fires where the incident commanders are
asking for resources and they're unable to get the resources
they need because there simply aren't enough firefighters to go around.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That is a really interesting idea that you introduce. And
there's the preparedness levels that we have with regard to
our readiness to fight fire, and preparedness level five is
the worst case situation. What's going on in preparedness level five?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Preparedness level five, Yeah, all the resources or most of
the resources are already committed. So say you know, you
have one hundred hot shots crews in this country, and
at a preparedness level of two or three, maybe thirty
percent of those I'm just making up a percentage.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Thirty percent of those are already committed to fires. So
a huge incident sparks off in southern Oregon, right, and
that incident commander calls for five hot shot crews or
ten hot shot crews, and they're able to get them.
The order is filled, right, and those resources show up
and they start putting in fireline and they're able to catch,
you know, the leading edge of the fire. At preparedness
(22:32):
level five, all hundred hot shot crews might already be committed,
or ninety five of them might already be committed. So
that fire sparks, that incident commander calls for ten hot
shot crews and they're only able to get one or two.
So then you have this situation where that crew is
sent to try to catch a five or ten mile
(22:56):
stretch of fire line and they only really have the
capacity to catch a mile, you know, And so you're
going to see fires that are lost or fires that
take way longer to contain. And you're also then putting
that crew or that engine, or that bulldozer or that helicopter,
whatever the resource is, you're putting them in danger. Yeah,
(23:16):
so I think that's what you're going to see happening.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
You think we're going to be at PL five most
of the season going forward, until we start to staff back.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Up, I imagine. I mean, if they're transparent about what
the resources are and where they're assigned. One of the problems,
to my mind is that we never even know exactly
how many firefighters are employed. You know, it's hard to
get clear numbers. So but yeah, I think we're going
(23:46):
to be at a PL five earlier this year for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You just mentioned putting the crews in danger, and obviously
as the resources are stretched further and further, that's going
to be more likely. There's a passage where you talk
about how the rowdy river hotshots are are being trained,
about the experience of the Storm Canyon fire back in
the nineties, in which fourteen firefighters died when the fire
raced up the hill and basically trap them. How dangerous
(24:12):
this is the job? And are we getting better at
reducing the danger of the job?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I mean, the job is it's quite dangerous. There are
usually fatality incidents every season or every year, and I
think the average in recent years has been right around
fifteen to twenty fatalities each season, and it kind of
goes up and down, but in general, I do not
(24:40):
think that number has really dropped a lot over time.
We do so much training, We do so much education,
you know, about how to avoid you know, you don't
want to construct fire line with fire below you. There
are these like watch out situations and these standard firefighting orders,
and we try to avoid these risks to some extent.
(25:01):
The job is just risky and it's unpredictable, and so
sometimes things just happen. So yeah, I don't think the
profession is really getting any safer. We try, but you know,
you can't keep every tree in the forest from falling
over and hitting a firefighter. You cannot prevent every boulder
from rolling down a hill. So you know, these things really,
(25:23):
sadly just still happen, and the risk is there and
you just have to be aware of it and try
to protect yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
There was a passage where you described a tree falling
on somebody and they actually weren't hurt. That was I
thought that would be the turning point where you lost someone.
But it's surprising what happens in the field.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah. Yeah, And you know, the tree, luckily wasn't a
large diameter tree. It was about an eight inch diameter tree,
and he had his heart hat on and it struck
his hard hat and gave him a concussion. But yeah,
he was really uninjured, which is very lucky. That's not
always what happens, but yeah, it is. It is wild
(26:04):
what happens in the field. And it also is pretty amazing.
We train so much on extracting somebody, so you know,
putting somebody on a backboard and getting them out of
the back country and to the hospital, and it's pretty
amazing with how much we have drilled that, how seamlessly
everybody springs to action and gets that person backboarded, you know,
(26:24):
in minutes.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
As the environment warms, it's also going to be harder
to work outside. How do you think the advent of
even greater global warming is going to change this profession?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, I think there will probably be just more periods
of the day where you have to shut down. You know,
I've already seen that happen sometimes when we're in the
Southwest in June and it was one hundred and sixteen degrees.
You know, you reach this point where you can't run
the chainsaws because they will geyser fuel when it's too hot.
(26:59):
And obviously also your body has a lot of trouble
operating when it's one hundred and sixteen degrees and you're
doing manual labor, but you know, the equipment won't even work.
So I think I've had those times where you just
have to like find some shade, sit down for a
couple hours, wait for the temperature to drop in order
to work again. I think you're going to see that.
But of course, then when you have to shut crews
(27:21):
down during that time of day, then the fire is
just allowed to kind of run or checked. So I
think probably you'll see more of that.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know, I mentioned earlier that your backstory runs through
the book, and I don't want to unfold all of
it because people should read the book to find out.
But particularly you talk about your father's self and family
destroying behavior, and you make a comment near the end
of the book about the fact that the experience of
fighting wildfire provided you with a perspective on his and
(27:51):
this is a quote fire of his self destruction. Is
that partly what took you to the forest?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I think it is.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
So.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I don't think I really knew that at the time,
but in hindsight, you know, my childhood and my young
adulthood even were pretty difficult, having this alcoholic father, feeling
like my family was fractured. And I think, like so
many of us who love the outdoors and who loved
the wilderness, I was going outside trying to find something,
(28:24):
so partly trying to find myself, trying to heal myself,
but also looking for somewhere that I could fit and
a place to belong, maybe a new family. So, without
spoiling the book, I think that is what I went
into that job, unconsciously seeking, you know, where can I
(28:45):
fit in, Where can I find a sense of meaning
and a place that sense.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Of self revelation. Really comes through. It was a really
enjoyable read. By the way, thank you for writing it.
What would you tell a young person who cares about
the wilderness if they asked you whether they should be
I'm a hot shot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, I would say do it?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah? I would also say that there are there are
other great ways to participate, and if they don't want
to do something as intense and as risky as being
a wildland firefighter, there are a lot of crews that
also volunteer organizations who are working on the preventative side,
so doing prescribed burning, indigenous cultural burning. There are a
(29:30):
lot more partnerships now between indigenous tribes and the federal
government and nonprofits that are trying to do this really
really critical work. So to my mind, if I ever
go back into something fire related, I would try to
do the prescribed fire side of things, because we need
so much more intentional fire in order to prevent these
(29:52):
incredibly severe.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Catastrophic wildfires.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I guess I would say, you know, if you
want to be a hot shot and you're up for
the challenge, you should definitely do it. It's the most
incredible job. But if you don't want to do something kind.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Of at that level, there's a lot of other.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Ways that you can get involved and try to you know,
protect the forest, protect our communities.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, and I think that's that's great advice because there
are some amazing programs, for instance, led by the National
Forest Foundation, where they're seeking to engage local communities in
those prescribed burns and other fuel reduction activities. Absolutely, as
you think about the wildfire scenario that we face, what's
your advice for people who live in wildfire prone areas
(30:36):
I do? For instance, what should I be thinking about?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, well, okay, so you should be thinking about your
defensible space, so clearing brush even you know, dead leaves
against the side of your house, clearing everything out within
that one hundred feet around your structures, and also where
you can house hardening, so maybe changing the materials or
(31:03):
finding ways to make your house less flammable essentially, Also
you know, having your go bag ready, having your things ready,
and really paying attention to those evacuation warnings and leaving
when they say to leave, Like you not only risk
your own life if you stay, but you risk the
lives of firefighters who might come in to try to
(31:24):
get you to evacuate. But I would also say, you know,
just adding to what we were just talking about in
terms of fuels reduction and prescribe burning, that it would
be great to find your communities. You know a lot
of people have these like fire safe councils in their
community or some other group that is trying to protect
(31:45):
the entire town or the entire county or whatever it
is from wildfires, and so you can get involved in
doing prescribed burning, fuels reduction, maybe creating fuel breaks or
just advocating for that work. So I think really getting
involved in the prevention side at your local level is
a great thing to do in addition to just you know,
protecting your property and yourself.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
That's great advice because we cannot bite this on our own.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
We have to pull together to do so absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
And you know, as we've seen, the federal government is
stretched too thin and is really struggling right now. So
we need these local partnerships, nonprofits, community members to step
up and do what they can.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
So you just finished your book, it's out. Now what's
next for you?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, I have an eight month old baby, so between
the book and the baby, I've been pretty busy with that.
But I think I was just thinking about this. As
I said, I would like to get back into some
sort of fuels reduction work or prescribe burning. So I
think I probably will be looking at getting back into
the woods, maybe next summer when my daughter's a little
(32:51):
bit older.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Well, Kelly, thank you so much for spending time with
us today. It's been a fascinating conversation and it's an
inspiring read. Thanks for the book.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Mitch, I love talking to you.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Welcome back. You've been listening to my conversation with Kelly Ramsey,
author of the new book Wildfire Days, A woman a
hotshot crew in the burning American West. Kelly spent two
years on the fire line, and you can learn more
about her and the work she's continuing to do for
forest health at Kelly Lynn Ramsey dot com. Kelly Lynn
Ramsey's all one word, no space, no dash, and Lynn
(33:29):
is spelled with two ends. Kelly Lynn Ramsey dot com.
We live in a time of growing wildfire danger and
estrange dichotomy that lionizes some types of heroes, particularly entrepreneurs
and politicians, while largely ignoring the everyday heroism that characterizes
American life. We usually hear about firefighters only when they die,
(33:51):
but it's their daily choice to enter the fire zone
that provides the security that we can all feel at home.
Ordinary heroism doesn't get the credit it deserves. We all
Americans and people in every nation, demonstrate the commitment to
serve others, to serve nature, and show the care for
the world that can be our climate salvation someday if
(34:11):
we all stick to the task of protecting and ultimately
restoring the natural world. That's a new and important heroism
that we need to practice. Kelly talked about going outside
to find herself, something that all of us experience when
we step beyond the city limits, when we go over
the hill and explore the wilds. Humans have been doing
this well since the beginning, and it is why our
(34:34):
species stands on every continent today. And unfortunately, the climate
era will require more ordinary heroism, whether by participating and
prescribed burns near your home or by people willing to
endure the extremes of fighting wildfire. These hot shot crews
are extraordinary people, folks. But the question is will Americans
get the opportunity to support the force As the Trump
(34:56):
administration slashes federal budgets. January l to twenty five poll
by More in Common found strong bipartisan support for wildfire
relief just before the cuts to the National Parks, Forest
Service and other federal land management agencies began. In fact,
seventy eight percent of Americans, including ninety percent of Democrats
who were pulled, and seventy two percent of Republicans supported
(35:20):
federal assistance to California after the devastating Los Angeles wildfires. Now, however,
even FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is on the
chopping block at a time when disaster preparation is more
needed than ever, and we need more firefighters. As the
US Forest Service struggles to staff for a summer that
is expected to see more fire, not less. As Kelly explained,
(35:43):
we will likely be at preparedness level five for more
of the fire season, and that's when the call for
a hotshot crew will go unanswered for lack of staffing,
leading the even greater danger for those brave firefighters who
can answer the call. So it's a dream time calling
for extreme bravery and commitment. Each of us can do
(36:04):
our part to protect our communities. In fact, it is
only by working together that we create our communities. If
you live at the Urban Wilderness Interface. Harden your home,
perhaps by installing a metal roof and file resistance siding,
create a one hundred foot perimeter around your house with
no vegetation, and stay tuned to warning systems so that
you can evacuate for your safety and that of the
(36:27):
firefighters who are dedicated to protecting you and your home.
And I strongly suggest, in fact, I encourage you to
take the time to read Wildfire Days, because you're going
to come away with a greater appreciation for the heroes
battling blazes in the mountains of the American West. And
I hope you take a moment to check out the
more than five hundred episodes of Sustainability in your ear
that we've produced to date. You know, writing review on
(36:50):
your favorite podcast platform about us will help your neighbors
find us. So, folks, you're the amplifiers that can spread
more ideas to create less waste and to prevent at wildfire.
Tell your friends, family, and coworkers. They can find us
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, or whatever purveyor of
podcast goodness they prefer. Thank you for your support. I'm
(37:12):
Mitch Racliffe. This is Earth nine one one, and we
will be back with another Innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks,
take care of yourself, take care of one another, and
let's all take care of this beautiful planet of ours.
Have a green day.
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