Heroes and Villains: Archetypes and Their Evolution (Season 7 Episode 32)

Join **Tatooine Sons: A Pop Culture Podcast**, where we explore the mythology of modern pop culture, starting with iconic heroes and villains. In this episode, we dive into Season 2 of *The Rings of Power*, discussing Galadriel’s battle with Elrond over the power of the rings, Big Durin’s transformation, and the crumbling state of Numenor. Then, we transition to an exciting look at *Batman: The Long Halloween* and other new comic releases. To wrap things up, we explore how mythological archetypes, like Superman as Hercules and Batman as Achilles, influence today’s superhero stories. Tune in for engaging discussions and see how these characters reflect the deeper struggles of our society.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tattooine Sons, the only fan podcasting named mcannon,
Star Wars Creature and to be endorsed by the writer
and the director of The Last Jedi, Ryan Johnson. Let's
talk about heroes and villains today, gentlemen.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
All right, it's not like that's not ninety percent of
what we already talked about.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah. Absolutely, but we're gonna look at it a little
bit differently. We're gonna look at modern day, you know,
heroes and villains, and we're gonna see how they connect
to ancient heroes and villages, villent villages, villages.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm sure there are some heroes from villages there.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Are, but villains with it. And as I say that,
I can't help but think about one of the greatest
villains of all time, Darth Vader, and how we lost
one of the most iconic voices and actors of all time.
I saw a Babylon be put out a an article
that says the voice of God will now be played

(00:51):
by jerrems el Jones. We're going forward with it. We'll
talk a little bit about that as well. Can't wait
to do it. This is Tatooine Sons. True. Thank you
for me.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Was the name of the pork on the Millennium falcon
Force the storm in my family. What do you think
his name is?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
It's a big moment. I am a Jedi like my
father before me. Maybe urbis.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
Do I do not?

Speaker 1 (01:33):
It means non.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Try Turbis Pablo. If you're listening to this live stream,
that pork's name is now Turbis. It's a good Star
Wars name.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
We're not done yet. These guys recorded.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Bossing the podcast called Tatters. Everybody was.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
Obviously James Jones.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
He has such a good voice, but that's not the
voice that most people when you normally associate Morgan Free
because he played god Evan Almighty and Bruce Almighty. Bruce
Almighty was first, wasn't it. No, Bruce Almighty was second.
I think you're wrong. Bruce's first. Whichever one. Jim Carrey

(02:25):
was in and it was. That's fine, that's Bruce all Mighty.
But anyway, talk about James Earl Jones here, what you know,
we obviously we're tattooing Sons were a Star Wars pot,
you know, centric podcast for the most part, so it's
easy to get talking about James Earl Jones from a
Darth Vader perspective. I mean, I'm sitting here looking at
my phone and my my pop socket and it's all

(02:47):
Darth Vader stuff. I'm wearing a Darth Vader shirt, sort
of Empire Empire shirt. But outside of Star Wars, in
your guys' opinion, what is the most, you know, the
greatest James Earl Jones moment outside of Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
I think Nate and I are going to have the
same answer.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Okay, so Nathan you have to go first. I have
to go first, because he thinks he knows your answer.
Definitely the scene where he's talking to Simba as Mufasa
as Mufasa, which one specifically, Oh, when he's remember moment. Yeah,
there's no doubt about it. That's for sure that the
moment Now is that is that in the original movie? Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Okay, yeah, when like oh yeah, yeah, it's when like
he shows up in the clouds and stuff and he's
talking to Simba. Yeah, that's a great scene just in general,
just in a fantastic scene. And yeah, it's only amplified
by the fact that James just has like the best
voice for for a a heavenly godlike creature like character.

(03:54):
It's just it was, Yeah, it was great, and then
you back it up with Hans a score and.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second too. The
for me, though, I just I think the scene in
Field of Dreams at the end of the movie when
he's talking about like the importance of baseball and that movie.
I mean, baseball is awesome. I people love baseball, but

(04:20):
when you watch that movie, you believe that baseball is
like the most iconic, the most important thing that's ever
happened because of the way he's communicating you know, baseball
in that in that and it's the culmination of this
that's like for me, and the fact that my dad,
I was homeschooling at the time. My dad was like
off work that day and he's like, come on, we're
not going to do school today. And he took me

(04:41):
to like Chapel Hills Mall at ten thirty in the
morning and we watched this movie he had heard was
pretty good called Field of Dreams, and we you know,
I'd never seen it and he'd never It was just
coming out and we watched it and it was just
it's about a dad having a catch with his son
and all that. So it's it's that's cool thinking of
remember and Lion King and all of that. You guys

(05:04):
got to have it. I'll let you go. You tell
tell everybody what you guys did. A couple of weekends ago.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
It was your deal, bro, Come on.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
We were able to go to Hansimer Live in Duluth, Georgia,
the kickoff show for the two show. I'm glad we
did because Hans is having to cancel a couple of
shows health concerns. So for his own health, just his
own health concerns, health professionals. He just got a little thing.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
So they're doing a show a night almost and going
all over.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
The every other night.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
It feels like they're doing a show. So they canceled
the Baltimore one, which is sad, sad, But he was
able to do Madison Square Garden, which is huge.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
So it's kind of hard to back out of Madison Square.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
That one sold out as well. So So what was
your favorite moment. I'll start with you, Sam, favorite favorite
moment in that concert Zimmer experience. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
There there were a few moments. One moment that well,
I don't want to step on Nate's moment. One moment
that I thought was really cool though, is it was
during the Lion King suite they had the I don't
remember his name, but they brought the guy out who
did all of the singing for like the Circle of
Life and and all that. That vocalist he was out
and he was singing you know those he Lives in

(06:14):
You and Circle of Life, all that stuff. And then
afterwards Hans was talking and there had been this girl
who was up on stage. She'd been singing the whole
concert and she was singing with this this guy during
this suite as well, and He's like, what's crazy is
she wasn't even born when I had this guy writing
the music for Lion King, and now she's here singing

(06:36):
with her dad. And so that was his his daughter
was able to sing that music with him on stage,
which was which was pretty neat.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
That's a Nate, yeah, I thought. The moment at the
end of the Gladiators site when we were finishing up there,
Lisa Gerard, the original vocalist for the original score for Gladiator,
was doing her her moment, which was also like a
ten minute moment. It was long, sweet, but she was

(07:05):
singing and she's an insane vocalist. I don't know how
she does it, but.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I mean one thing that I had listened to
the live recording or the recording of the live album,
and every time the glad Ear Sweet came on, I
thought it was multiple people singing the different ranges, and
then that night I realized it was just one chick
who has like the range of the entire keyboard on a.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Piano, almost like it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
She was great, but she finished up, and Hans was
saying that she usually runs off stage pretty quick, but
the entire place gave a few minutes standing ovation for
her and she stayed there and she was crying and
had a big speech about her and it was just
you could tell it was a really cool moment for her,
and it was cool to be a part of that
because that's not something that happens every show for sure.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
So yeah, it was a lot of fun. I love
that you guys got to do this, But I guess
we should start the show. So welcome to tattoen Sons,
a pop culture podcast. We believe that pop culture is
the mythology of this generation, that there is a story
it is written on our souls and that these myths
speak to that story. And that is why we're going
to look a bit more closely at the connections between

(08:13):
pop culture and mythology this week, beginning with heroes and
villains as archetypes of these mythological characters and how they've
evolved over time with it. So when you think, you know,
we were talking about this and kind of in prep
before we started recording tonight, and you know, there's there's

(08:35):
you know we talk about we're going to talk a
lot about Superman. Of course, we're going to talk a
lot about Batman. But well, like Wonder Woman is probably
the most direct like like carry over from from that based.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
On she's the Amazon's were formed by Odin. So yeah,
it was Zeus.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think it's I think it's is there Greek mythology?

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Okay, so Zeus. But yeah, that's that's how it goes.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
So yeah, we're gonna have some fun. We're gonna have
some talking about that now.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Of course, we can't overlook discussing the first half of
season two Rings of Power. We can't just gloss over that.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Okay, for sure, we've yet to be able to watch it,
Like did we watch it on Thursday night this week. No,
we didn't even get to watch it. We have not
watched it on the day it's released yet.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
And we're not going to do this week, and we
won't be able to even watch Penguin then when it releases.
But speaking of Penguin, there are a few really interesting
new comics releasing on Wednesday, but the most exciting is
the continuation I guess final final finale of the Long
Halloween storyline and arc that was never released. It was
a concept by a Jeff Flobe and Tim Sale, but

(09:41):
Tim Sale sadly passed away a couple of years ago.
But they're reprinting it and then carrying on the final.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Finishing out the finished the story before or did they
have to?

Speaker 3 (09:52):
So they They had a few you know, they have
Long Halloween, Dark Victory, They had a couple other spin offs.
They had uh Jeff Low and Tim Sayle did a
one off special uh after it a couple of years ago.
But this is gonna be a full series. I think
it's about twelve issues.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Have they already started writing this and then he passed They.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Started writing it a little bit while ago, and they
the issue that's coming out, Issue zero that's coming out
this week was the issue that they completed but didn't
actually fully finish artwork and everything wise, so they reprinted
it and are pout.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
But enough talking about what we're talking about. Let's talk
about what we're talking about beyond your God.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
And found us things, the rks and the deep pleasures
of the world.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
All right, then keep your secrets.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Your comment, he says stam size and I'm any magic
Basil Beggs and none.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Certain returning for you Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
But I don't think there's a new one that's for
about these.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
I've done that one, I've seen what else we also
stopped about. Orlando Bloomer said he wants to come back.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, but then he said that you talk to Andy Serkis,
and Orlando bloom said that, like he should just do like.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
AI or something. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
It's crazy. You hear new rumors about these unknown Lord
of the Rings movies like every day, Yeah, just because
nobody really knows what's going on. Because the next Lord
of the Rings film is an anime, you really can't
guess what's gonna happen with the next one. Well, it's
set hundreds of years I guess right, so you never
you never really know. And the last Lord of the
Rings game we got went down so great that you

(11:53):
can really trust the IP right now with anything.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
So the new ones that though, is like the hun
for Gallum or something? Yea, is it taking place like
in the same time the line as I'm wondering if.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
It's it's in between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
What the game tried to fill in? The Gollen game
tried to fill in?

Speaker 2 (12:11):
We don't talk about that.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Uh what a game, but one of the games of
all time. Yeah, it is a game, if you can even.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Call it that.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Anyway, Let's let's talk about some some Rings of Power though.
We're how many episodes in are we know?

Speaker 1 (12:26):
We'll finished five? There's only were left and we haven't
talked about it on this thing yet.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, so uh well.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Then three and were left. That's crazy. That's just that
was quick three episodes at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, you can't do that to me. But what what
does surprised you the most about the first five episodes
of season two of Rings of Power and Nate what what?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
What was a surprise?

Speaker 3 (12:45):
How streamlined it is it is and not not saying
it's moving fast. It's just it feels like we have
more focus this season than the first one. Not that
I had a problem with the first season at all.
I loved the first season, but.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
I think this one, we just feel like we have
an end goal.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
We I feel like more we're understanding this story through
Saron's eyes, Anatar's eyes, more than anybody else's. And I
feel like, not that it's saying that any of the
other plots are bad, but it feels like the Anatar
Calibrin Bore gladyel l Ron Duran plotline is the main

(13:24):
one in this season, and the Stranger's plot B, which
was a struggle one of the struggles I had with
the first season where it felt like we had plot
A plot, B, plot C plot, D plot, so on,
so on, Like we still have that to something we do.
But it feels like they're all at this point trying
to converge now because in the first season you had

(13:46):
l Rond and Duran, and then Duran had his own
stuff and Elrond had his own stuff, and then you
had the Stranger and Nori, and then you had glads Reel,
and then you had kind of calibrin Moore doing his
own stuff too, So you have a lot of these
things that didn't feel like they were really trying to
fit together. But this season, I mean, Gladriel, l Ron, Durham, Calibrin, Moore,
and Natar are all pretty much and the same with

(14:09):
the Elvin Kingdom are all pretty much having the same
goal right now. And then you just have the Stranger
doing his own thing and trying to find his staff,
which you know will eventually connect. And it is even
connecting because we last time we saw the Stranger with
Tom bombdil him saying that you know, you're gonna have
to defeat Sara, and you're gonna have to defeat the
Dark Wizard all that stuff, so we know that they're

(14:32):
gonna converge. But right now, that's that surprised me. How
how focused we are, I guess is a better word that.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
I would say that, I'm surprised that we're before we
got halfway through the series this season and we already
had the rings for the Dwarfs. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I wasn't expecting that that.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
I thought that the entire season was going to play
out the Dwarf rings. Next season was going to be
the ring for men the Men's stuff storyline, so the
Men's Rings yet.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
So yeah, yeah, I found that interesting too. I think
that was kind of the thing that surprised me the most.
I What has surprised me, though, is how central they're
making the Anatar storyline to this, which makes sense. I mean,
of these characters and of these plot lines that continues

(15:27):
into the main story of Lord of the Rings, that's
the one like the Rings storyline. So I've appreciated how
they've been doing that. But another you know, let's let's
you were talking about plot A being and c or whatever.
Let's talk about one of those those side plots though,
is glad you'rel and l Ron. I've sort of had
like different feelings for you know, about the Rings and

(15:50):
whether or not the El's should be able to use
them or not, or if they're safe. Lron is obviously
convinced that they're a tool for Sarren to use to
control the Albs, while Gladrell thinks that they can help
Elvin kind. Obviously they have at this point, they they've
saved them. They don't have to go back to Valemore.

(16:11):
But I mean, this is sort of a weird loaded
question because we know the kind of the end of
the story. But who do you think is right and
why that don't want you to go first.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think it's interesting what they did in the last
episode where they seemed to suggest especially and we'll talk
about another plot line obviously, what's what's Sarn's alias and Natar.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
And Natar and it's like and Natar.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, that's too many ends, but Suretar Banana Tar no, Okay, Sure,
So Sarron and Kela Brimboor they're central. It seems like
everything that's going on in this entire series, right, so
in season with it. And what what is interesting is

(17:02):
they had this conversation in the last episode that seemed
to suggest that the reason that the rings that the
elves have are not they're able to control them and
they're able to control the power with them, is because
they were actually forged by Kela Brimboor Sarn didn't touch them. Sorrow,

(17:25):
Sarin didn't touch them, and he did touch the rings
for the dwarves and he is he's crafting the rings
for men.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Right, which is probably why they turn into raids.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
So I kind of we've seen the benefit that they brought.
They they rescued the elves. They can stay in Middle Earth.
They restored them to Middle Earth.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
They've given gladdal visions.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
They've given gilglad the visions as well. With this what's
the name of the third guy that got the ring?
That he was the older we've lost track of him lately.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, I kind of drop that story.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
That isn't even important in the original movies either.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
So he should have only in the extended edition for
one second, one frame. Really, I did not know that
he was just there in the beginning when Gladrail is
given the whole monologue like three Rings for the Elvin
King's he shows up.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Okay, I get the feeling that that, in my opinion,
that Gladil's.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right that they are a useful tool. I see that
they're useful tools.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
She has it in and that's that's a great deception,
because if the first rings don't cause death, don't cause destruction,
are not evil, it leads to the well, we should
make more rings, which is exactly what's happened with this,
and so that's a great deception on Saarron's part to

(18:49):
not make those rings dangerous in any way, shape or form.
And then we see them still wielding those Rings in
the Fellowship of the Ring and in the main trilogy, right,
there's still you know, Gladriel still has her ring and
all of this kind of stuff. So I think that
it's it's the I think it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
I'm gonna stick with my boy. Uh Elron's right here
strictly because and and this comes to a difference in
Galadriel's character, not even i'd say a difference just to
revealing she's against Saron, and that was something that was
established in the first season a lot. But she is

(19:33):
very willing and weak to the thought of power and control,
not just control over death more than anything, due to
what happened to her brother. And so she sees that
in the Rings, obviously and fair enough, they did save
the Alvin race. So she's blinded to the fact that

(19:54):
Souron was the one they gave these ideas for the Rings,
being the most level headed and is continuing to be
the most level headed about this and is thinking through like, hey, y'all,
like the dude that's like almost evil incarnate told us
to make these things, and I don't think that this.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Is a real great idea.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Maybe we should pump the brakes and like reconsider this
and then everybody's like, nah, we're chilling. These give us
cool powers. So, I mean, I believe Elron in this
situation is right. I think that as we're seeing Elron
to seeing the benefits of the rings, but I think
that they definitely should have cooled their jets about it

(20:40):
and try to figure out more about it instead of
just Yep, these things work, let's use them. Perfect stuff.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
So yeah, yeah, Now, Saurn's survival over one thousand years
is kind of is explained in the opening of the
first episode. That's how the series starts. What does this
reveal about him? Kind of, especially as it relates to

(21:08):
his motivations.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
He's man nate, He's a goop man. He's a goop man,
He's a group, He's a symbio.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
He honestly looked like a symbio, but shows perseverance, also
shows complete rage, but also he's very cunning to be
one person and then killed by Adar, waiting and waiting
and growing and growing to be able to basically enact

(21:37):
revenge on Adar, and finally you realize his full vision
of controlling all of Middle Earth just by doing what
he does. Being a complete evil jerk. I mean, it
is explained within the first maybe fifteen minutes of how

(21:57):
he's not a good guy, how hol Rand isn't, how
Sourn isn't with the dude that offers him help throughout
the entire opening sequence.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
The man, I don't know if.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
We ever got a name, but on the boat when
you know it starts to sink and he calls out
the Halbrand for help, and Halbrand just goes and grabs
the the signet and then just swims away. It was
that was that was pretty pretty sour on esque. I
thought that that was It was a really good explanation

(22:29):
of how he got there.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
It reminds me a lot of Mal. Yeah, Mal's anger,
his hatred, his lust for revenge. Uh you know, we
know it in the Clone Wars causes him to to
survive unnaturally, and that's what's going on. I think that
we get that element of him wanting to, like you said,

(22:54):
the interact revenge against Adar with this. But I just
I think that that it's more than just revenge. I
think that his he had within his grasp in the
opening of this this season, we see this he had
within his grasp to be the most powerful being on

(23:14):
the entire earth and he was right there and he
allowed his own arrogance to make him vulnerable to those
that were closest to him. And he's his desire to
survive is more than just get to revenge against Edar.
It's I'm going to get that power back and I'm

(23:35):
never going to let it loose again.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
It's like a prophet, a disciple of more.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Goth right and has been destroyed.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
He's trying to resurrect more goth No.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
No, he's trying to replace more, to fully realize more
and to actually go beyond more good goal. It's very
there's some Star Wars stuff. It's a Master apprentice thing
where the apprentice thinks he can overtake the master with that.
There's there's that, and I think that that's what's going on.
He's like he had right there within his grasp this
unlimited power, sidious moment, and he let it slip because

(24:12):
he was it was ignorant to what was going on
even in his own circle with that.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, now, all three of us kind of really did
disliked Dad Duran at the end of season one. We
were not happy with that. But you know, now as
we were mentioning we're surprised we've seen this already. He

(24:38):
has his ring and well, I don't think he's given
them to this, he's.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Like getting ready to give.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
He watched like half their revenue or something crazy. Yeah,
something like that. So we're watching him him in that process.
So are we seeing him become more of what we
had hints of throughout the first season?

Speaker 1 (25:01):
I don't know if we do we have hints of
him being this like power hungry power. No.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
I think that's the thing because even during the fourth
was like he's never been like this. He was never
greedy or selfish in his rule. He always cared for
his people. This is on, This is unlike my father,
is what he was talking about.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
It was a really really powerful moment when he first
starts sensing the uh the light using the ring and
like demands this like load bearing wall, this foundational wall
be opened up, and and it's it's interesting. I think
the other thing is what's the what's up? During the
Fourth's Wife Lisa, Lisa, you know, it's funny to see

(25:43):
how Desa pushes for for during to give, to get
his father to take the rings, to do this, to
partner with with l Rond and the elves and all
this process and then the moment that she sees he's
the result of what's happening. And during the third you
see immediately her regret in this, and I sensed there was,

(26:07):
you know, especially early on in some early episodes in
this season, there's a love between that Desa has for
during the third, she still she loves during the third
her father in law, and she's she's broken up as
to what he's becoming at this point, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
And it's it's just shown how much the Ring can
corrupt somebody. And we saw that in like Two Towers
and Return the King with Frodo and how easily he
was okay with betraying Sam and just leaving him due
to Galem because Gollum's jerk.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
We don't like that scene, but.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
It just shows what the Rings can do, and it's
it's difficult for people to really be okay with all
of the other rings doing what the One Ring feels
like it does. I know that somewhere in the books
it might have said that that Sarahn wasn't able to
corrupt any of the other rings, might as the One Ring.

(27:08):
I feel like they're trying to take some liberties with
that in this which is fine. I think it works better.
I think that it enhances the work rather than replaces it.
It's not a it's an adapt patient. And I think
that a lot of people really need to pick up
on the fact that Amazon does not have the rights
to the Silmarillion. Amazon does not have the rights to

(27:29):
anything but the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and
its appendances.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
It doesn't have the rights to anything that was describing
anything else. So everything it's adapting is from those books.
And again it's adapting. So it's not going to be
a Shot for Shot remake, and anybody that has an
issue that it's not a Shot for Shot remake.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Should also have issues with the.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Movies and the Hobbits and the Shadow of War and
Shadow Games. People have a lot of understandable but they
don't have as many issues as Rings of Power has,
And so seeing them change up a couple of things
to increase emotional weight and character development and leading it

(28:12):
to a story that ultimately feels like we have a
better payoff for Lord of the Rings is not a problem.
So changing that to make during the third have such
a different demeanor due to Saron corrupting the rings as
he was crafting them.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
It's fine.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
I think that it works, and it is increasing what
we have coming up in this season. I know we're
going to have a battle of for a region, and
I know that el Ron's going to lead that charge
and most likely with during the fourth So that's really
going to increase. How during the third handles that and
then leading into you know, the Minds of Moria eventually

(28:50):
closing down, the civilization gone, the king dead, and all
of that that we see, it's going to enhance it.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
So I think what they're doing right now is just fun.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah. So another thing that's pretty important is everything on
newman Ore has kind of fallen apart, at least like jurisdictionally.
The queen has been dethroned in a coup, and now
Ellen Deal has been stripped of his rank. Also, oh lord,
why am I forgetting his name?

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Whose name?

Speaker 2 (29:22):
His son? The sealed Door? Thank you? He's still stuck
in the middle, not at all, No, you know, he's
still stuck in Middle Earth. Everything's a mess.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
He's dead.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, And now that other guy I don't remember his name,
the friend Yeah, he got stabbed.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I hate that other dude. Dude, and Silda's sister, she's
a church. It's like the heart of hearts of men
are really really corrupted.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
That.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
I mean, they're showing us the downfall of well okay,
I mean the question I was going to ask is
where is the storyline headed? But I think we all
know where it's going right now.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Now I have I have theories. Well, I'm I'm curious
about how it's going to head with Anil. Is that
who is this.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
The Yeah, the captain.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, I'm wondering how that's gonna it's gonna play out,
because doesn't he doesn't he have to become king or
is it a seal door or do we not know?
Because this is he has to become king well, and
then he's killed in battle, a sealed door takes up
that's his sword and cuts the.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
One ring off of Sarn's hand.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
At that point, though, during the prophecy, Newmanor already fell. Correct, Yeah,
so the kingdoms of Men split into Middle Earth, right.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, they're on Middle Earth at that point. That's why
they're in.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
That Soil has to become the king of Gondor, correct.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I don't remember if Gondor has been founded at that point.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Well, it doesn't it have to be for Anil's line
and a seal door line to be Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
I guess.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
What I think right now is we know that there
is this thing, the Fall of Numenor.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
We know that that exists in the books. We know
that it exists.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
And as the Numenor's sinks, the island sinks. And I
think what we're trying to figure out is the sea.
They've they've been so adamant in talking about the sea
as this this this kind of spiritual visions in the
all of that, as being another character, another spiritual character

(31:32):
for Newmanor. And I think that due to the turmoil
which obviously hasn't been seen in Newmanor before this time,
at least not to the extent that they're having right now.
The king is dead, uh, the queen is kind of
shunned at this point, and a corrupt politician is now

(31:52):
leading the island. The terminal turmoil is crazy right now.
And so I think that due to the plant here
showing the queen, that the sinking of New Minor and
all of that, but now it's disappeared and the len
Deal is leaving, and it seems like he has a
mission to probably go at this point that's suggesting finding

(32:15):
Gondor and leading that kingdom.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
We're going to be seeing the sinking of Newmanor maybe
by the end.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Of this season.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Wow, that'd be crazy mid next season maybe because we
do have to get Gondor established in these next three
seasons before we end season five with the end of
the Prophecy in the One Ring. So yeah, I think
that where we're heading with this is the fall of Newmonor,
and that's what they're at least suggesting right now.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, and then we've gotten very little of the Harfoots
and the Stranger in this series. But what do you
think is being set up for the last three episodes
of the season, Dad, I think.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
That they've relegated Gandalf, I mean the Stranger and the Hobbits,
I mean the Hartfoots to a secondary storyline that's just
going to basically I don't know. I mean, that's a
that's a storyline that that I'm not tracking with as well,
because you've got the Dark Wizard, but I don't really

(33:17):
understand the Dark Wizard here. You've got you know, everything
that's happening in the what's the land that they're in
the name of the run With that, I mean, you've
got Tom, which I loved the one episode we had
with Tom Bombadill. I thought that was fantastic. But I
just don't understand where they're going with that plot line.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, I believe that due to what the stores stores
stores stores said, we're going to be getting at the
end of the season, or those the storers steers they're
called stores.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I thought they were called s o r.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Sts other versions of Hobbits. They were hobbits, halflings, halflings.
We're gonna be getting by the end of the season.
I feel like we're gonna be setting up Gandalf. He's
gonna get his staff, he's gonna learn he's going to
defeat whatever the Dark Wizard is, who then wanted to
gain power and bring Suron back another disciple of Saron

(34:15):
maybe becoming the Witch King or the Mouth of Saron.
Could see that happening. But I think by the end
of this we're gonna get a fight between Gandalf and
the Dark Wizard with his staff.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
And then I'd be good with that.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
The Haarfoots and Gandalf searching for that land that whatever
that guy's name.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Which is the Shire.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, and they're going to be looking for that and
finding the place for the Steward, the Hearfoots and all
the halflings to finally reside in growing journeying on exactly
and then not having to go on adventures, not wanting
to go on adventures, leading that to the end of
the series. So that's where I believe we're going with

(34:59):
this story line for the season being it's gonna be
gandalfh revealed, him finding his name, him finding his staff,
and defeating the dark Wizard for now at least so and.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Then last off, they've been doing some interesting stuff with
Calibrimbore's character in this in this season.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
What do y'all?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
What do y'all think about that night?

Speaker 3 (35:23):
I like how conflicted he is. He he's a man
of true creation and really wants to create something. His
heart is in the right place, there's no doubt about that,
but he is being deceived by anatar by Souron so well,
and that leads more into what we see later on

(35:47):
with Saron in the One Ring and calibrimboor and how
it really feels like Keli born boor is, he feels
trapped in the situation right now. He put himself in
a situation he knows he can't get out of, so
he needs to dive deeper to try and fix what
he has created, what he's begun, and he knows that

(36:07):
what he's begun could ruin Middle Earth if not handled correctly,
So he feels like he needs to control everything, and
it's it's going to be an interesting way to have
him create the One Ring eventually.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
And the Lord does keleb Brimbourg actually craft the One Ring? No,
sar does sarn that does Yeah, yeah, because it just
feels like I could see Kelbrimbo being manipulated, being twisted
to where he doesn't even know that the Sarron is
the one that's causing him to make that, but he
makes the One Ring as his attempt to try to

(36:44):
defeat Sorrow. But it actually, I mean that's what I
could see that, that's where it feels like it could
go because that's how well Sarron is manipulating and trapped
kelib Brimble. I mean, I mean that last episode kelib
Brimbore was Broken was phenomenal. That was a phenomenal care episode.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
If you see a random how dude man walk into
a giant fire and then give you visions of an
elf god, basically, yeah, I'd kind of buy them too.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
So yeah, well, it's pretty exciting to see that the
fan reaction for this season has been much more positive
than season one, and it was revealed that last week
that season three is already emotion and Amazon has reaffirmed
their commitment to completing the original five season plan.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
I love it. Yeah, yes, it's very good. Good segment,
Thank you, goos fun I've good talking, good talking, Yes,
Rings of Power, find Little the Rings. I won't be
talking more in December for sure. But it's been several
weeks since we've.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Been able to make our way to Pensacola, sadly to
pick up our latest comics. But there's one I'm going
to be sure to head down there to get this week. Also,
we have Transformers one, so we've got head down there
for that too, But we will talk about that and
what we've been reading next.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Have you ever danced to the Devil in the Pale moonlight? Yeah?
I can fight.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
I'm here to fight for truth and justice in the
American way. The people in this room, which one is
A wearing a spankly outfit and B not a fuse.
There's only one.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Guy man, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that.
That man has no limits. I feel like at this point, yeah,
because they gave it a five, they when they had

(38:51):
already given Schehawk on nine.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
And they also gave Transformers one a five.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
And they give Transformers one a nine.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Five, and and people are saying it's the best Transformers
movie yet.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
So I think they're just trolling us.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
I feel I think they're stupid. I also feel like
they just weren't paid enough to give a good review.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Genuinely.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
It feels a little suspicious that they, yeah, reviews some
things that I'm like, sorry, well, I don't know. Yeah,
somebody slipped them of fifty, but who knows. Definitely excited
for The Penguin coming out Thursday at nine on HBO
and then next day on Max. I think it's next
day on Max or like right after finishes or something.

(39:32):
I'm not sure if it's a two episode premiere or
not this week. But speaking of comic books and characters
releasing comic books this Wednesday, there, of course I think
I saw that there were like three hundred and forty
comics from any type of publisher coming out this week.
So this is definitely not every single comic because we'd
be here for hours. But Batman, Superman World's Finest Issue
thirty one's coming out, Superman Issue eighteen, X Men Issue four,

(39:57):
and Darth Vader.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Issue that's ironic, the Darth Vader fifty.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Yeah, Darth Vader fifties coming out, So it's gonna be
a big I think. So it's gonna be the big,
big fiftieth issue, which is always a big landmark. And
then Batman The Long Halloween The Last Halloween Issue zero,
Issue zero, Issue zero.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
This is the prologue to the.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
New series Batman The Long Halloween The Last Halloween that's
coming out I think starting at the end of this month,
but it is going to be kind of it's gonna
be detailing a storyline set after I'm pretty sure Dark
Victory and some of the other one offs that they've
had coming up here. I'm not sure i'd got the

(40:43):
last special, but I don't remember what the last special
really was because it was like two years ago that
I got. It's been a while since they've done anything
about it, but The Long Halloween The Last Halloween, at
least the details of the main series not. The prologue
is Gotham's city learns to fear Halloween once more, as
a terrible event threatens to destroy Jim Gordon's life and

(41:05):
puts Batman and Robin's teamwork to the tests more than
ever before. In a city of liars, mass vigilantes, and criminals,
can anyone be trusted? Interesting, So it feels like it's
going back. No, and that's just a usual, another normal
Batman storyline. But the prologue for issue zero is a
pretty pretty fun one. It's the new edition of the

(41:28):
final collaboration between Jeff Lobe and Tim Sale, the Prelude
to Batman and The Long Halloween, The Last Halloween. You
thought you knew the whole story of Batman The Long Halloween,
you were wrong. Reprinting the final collaboration between legendary and
creators Jeff Lobe and Tim Sale, this special uncovers a
deadly mystery that could destroy Batman Commissioner Gordon two face,
and well, that would be telling, wouldn't it. Don't miss

(41:50):
out on this special reprint of the Prelude to the
last Halloween.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
So was this already been released.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
I think at one point it might have been. I'm
sure I missed it because it's busy, But this is
a reprint that I think leads straight into series.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
That's why it's an issue series.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
And they got an artist that that does Tim Saley
homework artwork for what's coming up here. So it's gonna
be an awesome series.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
To be able to read it, be able to dive
back into the long Halloween universe, especially.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Like considered one of the best of the storylines of Batman.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yeah, if it's it might be one of the most iconic,
and you got death in the family and killing the
Yoke and all those things for vowels, but I think
along Halloween probably is the most iconic, just artwork wise.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
It's unique, and does that play into the Penguin storyline some.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
It doesn't pay it play into Penguin much, but it
looks like they may be going the direction of trying
to loosely tie into it with you know, of course
the Batman taking place around Halloween and then the Penguin
taking place in the weeks leading up to after Halloween
to Christmas time.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
I think because they announced that The Batman two's taking
place around Christmas and.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
During the winter, which is gonna be awesome. It's wondering
if that's what I'm trying to get with it, mister Freeze.
And then most likely the rumors are right now that
we go through that, there's gonna be another spin off series,
most likely between and then probably the final of the
trilogy will be The Court of Owls, since I'm wanting

(43:28):
to do a criminal kind of underground vibe to this trilogy.
So yes, the Long Halloween will tie into because of
holidays and everything going on with that. But I think
they we're gonna getting a lot of stuff. But Dad,
I haven't.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Been able to read anything comics.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
When no, he hasn't because he hasn't gotten any new
ones even revoke your guys's nerd cards. Well, I can't
drive to Found Defense Cole for no reason at the time.
But Dad, have you been reading anything currently?

Speaker 1 (44:00):
I'm still on the Daredevil stuff. What shue issue are
you on? Don't remember which issue? I mean, like, we
I finished one arc? Have you gotten He's not in prison?
He basically it was, oh, he's in prison and Electra

(44:22):
just showed up and and was explaining to him why
she was doing it. And there's some really weird stuff
like she's got a thing for Matt or she knows
it's Matt and we found that out in this I
need help? What do you need help with? A long time?
There's one character. I have no idea where this person
comes from. Who you talk about? Can you figure it out?

(44:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
Typhoid Mary A Typhoid Mary is the wife of Kingpin
after Vanessa dies.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I'm pretty sure in the Commons, so it's Kingpin that
puts her in the in the Catholic as in yeah yeah, is.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Probably one of the most mentally ill characters. She's crazy,
She's genuinely insane. She's also pretty awesome. She's a great character,
and her and Kingpin together make for a very interesting couple.
They did have a whole wedding arc at one point
in the Daredevil comics back in the nineties. I think
as Typhoid Mary, Typhoid Mary and Kingpin. But yeah, it's

(45:22):
it's a really interesting She's a fun character. She also
doesn't take place much left in the in the comic series,
she's not She's usually Electra's villain, at this point she
she fights Electra a lot. But you're about to get
to one of my favorite moments in the Daredevil comics series. So,
and it'll be very timely with what's coming up in

(45:43):
the comic book world, especially in the movie comic book
world with FNOM coming out. So it's gonna be very
interesting to.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
We were just talking about this, we were just talking yesterday.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Yeah, we were. So it's gonna be a ton of fun.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
And you're gonna have questions, but I will be happy
to answer them because it's an awesome moment. Wait to check,
But yeah, it's gonna be a ton of fun for sure.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
And yeah, and as.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
We've said before, the best storytelling, or at least some
of the in pop culture ifday is happening in comics
and comic book movies and TV shows and games if
you can find any that aren't made by Square, Unichs
or Avengers. But ask to ad when you take the
time to really get into arcs that you're sure to
get hooked on it.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
But take some time to stop by your local comic
book store and pick up a few issues to see
for yourself.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Even if you have to drive almost an hour to
get to it. Yeah, which we will. We will this week.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
All right, cool, good job, thank you for joving.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
You're all ready to talk about superheroes and villains and
mythology and all that fun stuff. Yeah, fokey religions and
ancient weapons are no match for a good blast church,
so I can.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
Rebellions are built on.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Me, and I am with the fourth.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
If you live long enough, you see the same eyes
and different people dark.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Why do you I'll start with you, n Why do
you think that Darth Vader was such an icon.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
He I think that it's the fact that he has
no real face. And I think that when you start out,
when you see Darth Vader, it's this scary mask. It's
it's unnatural, it's inhuman, and it just feels kind of
uncomfortable and intimidating. And I think that's where some of
the most iconic villains come from. I mean, if you

(47:47):
think about it through the horror standards of cinema, you
have you know, Jason Vorhees with hockey mask and Michael
Myers with the with the crazy mask. Yeah, with the
William William Shatner mask. And then you take it to
even the alien in this this crazy, creepy, weird looking
creature that you just cannot place a finger on what
you've seen it, but you know you're scared of it.

(48:08):
So I think that's where Vader comes from too.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
I think Vader's iconic because he's cool.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I mean, everything he does got that amazing deep sound.
That he's just an imposing figure. He doesn't seem as
imposing when you hear David Prowse David Prowse's messitation of
the lines. Yeah, I'm British.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's probably good that he.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
A C three po approach. Yeah, Vader with it.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Well, let's talk a little bit about these heroes of
villains and and they're you know there, what they are
trying as we look at modern superhero characters and such,
how they sort of tie into ancient mythological figures. But
then how those those figures and those stories have had
to evolve and change over time. I guess the first
thing is, you know, how do we have you know,

(48:54):
when you think about these characters like Superman and and Batman,
the Holy Trinity is just right, wonder woman, how do
they reflect archetypes from ancient mythology? What are specific ways.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
I mean, I think one great example is Superman is
very very similar to Hercules in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
You know, they're both known for their feats of superhuman
strength and these abilities they are are often both considered
like gods in a way, and you know, they both
they embody this concept of a heroic savior, savior someone
with these from the heavens, with these unnatural abilities coming

(49:35):
down to defend humanity from greater than they can handle threats.
And another thing is is that that distinguishes these characters
is their moral integrity, this unwavering sense of right. I mean,
Superman's called the boy Scout in comics and stuff. Right,
you know, they both no matter what personal trial, trials

(50:00):
or challenges occur, they both still try to do the
right thing no matter what. And you know they but
with this they struggle with their identify identity as both
powerful beings and humans. Right, I mean Clark Kent, he's
got a nine to five job at the Daily Planet,
but he's also the defender of Earth. And then Hercules

(50:23):
is trying to figure that out too because he comes
from Zeus right in Olympus. But he also just feels
like he's a regular old farm boy. So they're I mean,
they're very very similar characters.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
He can't go the distance.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
He can't go the distance, that's right.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, And just like that, Batman also feels a lot
like nothing from did like go the distance. Now it
was maybe a little forced, but maybe maybe, But from that,
Batman's a lot like like Achilles in some ways that
both are are complex characters driven by personal loss, like
Achilles with a Patrocles Patroclus whatever, whoever, I'm not a

(51:03):
patty Patty his death, and then of course Batman's grief
over his parents murders, and both see justice through their
personal sense of vengeance and right or wrong, and morality
through a lot of it. And of course Batman's Achilles
heel is human is humanity. Yeah, And I mean even

(51:29):
when in the comics when he's asked, you know, by
the Justice League and everything that he has continuency plans
for all of them, they're like, okay, so like what's
yours And he's like, my parents, He's like, that's that's
my weakness, my parents and what they did is my weakness.
But he is a skilled fighter, He's a skilled detective,

(51:49):
the greatest detective in the world, but he lacks superpowers
like Superman and Wonder Woman, which makes his physical and
emotional vulnerabilities critical to his story. He can be broken,
he he can be worn down and tired, and that
makes some of the greatest stories. When he's having to
go weeks on end with no sleep and just being
broken down by these villains, it makes for some some

(52:12):
amazing things. And similarly, Achilles of strength is tempered by
his vulnerability in his heel, which isn't quite the same thing.
It's just how do you strike a heel? It feels weird,
but Greek mythology is strange. But the Dark Night trilogy
explores Batman's inner turmoil and his emotional scars left by
his pass, mirroring achilles eternal conflicts and in all of

(52:35):
Greek mythology as well. So it's very similar and Batman
and Achilles, and it feels like something I wouldn't usually compare,
but it makes sense when you when you really think
about it.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Right, you know, And then if you're gonna if we're
gonna al, I'll take a stab at Wonder Woman. I
mean that sounds weird.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Maybe be careful, Wonder Woman.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
She kicked my butt. But she's got you know, obviously
comes directly ties to Artemis right with with her cares well,
I mean there's a Amazonian called so right exactly, you know.
I mean she's she's a protector, she's a warrior. You know,
she has a strong connection to nature like Artemist did.

(53:14):
Who's the goddess of the hunt and the wilderness. She's no,
she's no. You know, Artemis was known for her skills
in battle as she protected the natural world, just like
Wonder Woman's, you know, with their Amazonian roots, like you
were talking about her respect for their uh you know,
the different realms of nature with that so and then Artemis,

(53:34):
you know, was a champion of the weeks, a champion
of women, and a champion of children. And you see
that characteristic similarly come out with Wonder Woman. She embodies
a lot of those same qualities, you know, fighting for justice,
fighting for equality, and we see that that's a that's
a central piece of what's going on in Wonder Woman.
In the film that came out was almost a decade ago.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Now I'm not quite twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
She you know, she she's got to stop aries, which
I know is as a big shift from mythology where
where Aries is actually in mythology a good Yeah, he's
a good figure. Yeah, in this it's you know, it's
a twist in this, but she's bringing priests to the world.
It kind of reflects what's going on with Artemis. Isn't
as the god of war? Yeah, and that was yeah, absolutely, yeah.

(54:23):
So yeah, but all all.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Three of the characters that we talked about, you know,
like their mythological counterparts, they they face great moments of sacrifice, right.
Obviously Superman is constantly sacrificing his personal desires for the
greater good, for the good of the earth. Batman obviously

(54:46):
sacrifices his happiness for Gotham, because what character is more
depressed than Batman? And then Wonder Woman of course, sacrifices
her her isolation to protect humanity. She can't really get
close with anyone in her line of work. Much like Hercules, Achilles,

(55:06):
and Artemis are often depicted, you know, sacrificing their own
personal comforts for the greater good.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
And these superheroes, these these godlike figures in d C,
much like the mythological figures and Greek mythology, Grapple with
their extraordinary abilities and their connection to humanity. I mean
Superman's alien heritage, Wonder Woman's Amazonian origins, and Batman's limitations
is a human all mirror the divine human tensions seen

(55:37):
in this ancient mythology and everything that we have going
on through that. Yeah, in what ways do you feel
like these heroes have evolved to align with the way
that society's values have changed and what does that say
about our cultural priorities?

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, I mean this has happened with you know, multiple characters,
but a really good example because he's one of the oldest,
if not like the oldest superhero. It is Superman. You know,
early versions of him, introduced in nineteen thirties, you know,
just post World War One, getting into World War Two.

(56:16):
His characters, you know, it was heavily influenced by American patriotism,
especially during World War Two, much like Captain America, except
Captain America is a little more on the nose. But
you know, but but Superman was written to symbolize hope
and justice for the justice and the right, true truth,
justice in the American way. That was his motto and

(56:37):
then up until recently that was that was his tagline.
That was his motto. But over time Superman kind of
evolved from being a purely American symbol to more of
a global protector.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Right, what's the saying now? The dcies, justice.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
And a better tomorrow. Yeah, which obviously is better.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
And I don't I like I like that change for Superman.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
I mean, but that was controversial, it was generationally. It Wasntravie.
It fits Superman. It fits who Superman is.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
I mean, Superman was never American.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
He was Tonian and.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
You were all Kansas boy.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
He was sent to Earth to protect its people, and
that's just it's not just America that he's supposed to protect.
But in modern comics and film, Superman tackles global issues
like climate change, in someone's immigration, and human rights, showing
how his character has adapted to reflect contemporary concerns like

(57:37):
most heroes have. Comics are a way for.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
People to reflect and speak into modern things.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Not as much of a controversial way, not as real
of a way. But a Man of Steel good movie,
Superman struggles with his identity as both an alien and
a protector of Earth, and even a person a human
and having to deal with Zod coming back, being a
Kryptonian and creating Krypton on Earth or being a human

(58:05):
protecting its people. Like his father, Jorrel wanted highlighting themes
of belonging and the immigrant experience, which is very relevant
to modern debates on immigration and diversity and everything that
goes along with that. But yeah, even even when you
go to Batman and in these these ideas and concepts,

(58:26):
you see, the early iterations of Batman depicted him as
a straightforward crime fighting vigilante. Even some of them were cheesy,
comic bookie, you know, pow Bop, just a just a normal,
normal dude. If you're going with the original original concept,
the blonde haired, blue eyed, right people know, a red
shirt with weird wings and shorts and god, it was bad.

(58:49):
Thanks thank you Bill Finger for coming in and helping
out with that. But as societal views on justice and
morality became more nuanced, especially back in the eighties and
in the nineties, it changed Batman's character a lot. But
it helped Batman evolve into a morally complex character grappling

(59:09):
with his own darkness, his own trauma, and the ethical
implications of his actions and what he enacts on criminals.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Yeah, and then one of the defining characteristics of Batman
is his use of non lethal force and his personal
code against killing that you know, that's been increasingly questioned
and implore and explored in modern stories and pushed to
its limits, you know, reflecting like societal concerns around justice

(59:38):
and law enforcement and just general accountability, right.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
And I mean even in The Dark Knight, Batman faces
his moral dilemmas in his battle against the Joker, asking
difficult questions about the cost of justice and the blurred
line between a hero and the vigilante, which is of
course echoing real world debates about law enforcement and power.
And we see this all the time. And then it
goes back to the original Batman movie where it seems

(01:00:04):
like Batman's completely fine with killing, and then it just
continues into this more modern aspect of like is that
necessary for Batman? Is that necessary for all these characters?

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah? And then you know, an example of Wonder Woman's
early character and how it's changed is you know, she
was first created in the nineteen forties and at this point,
feminism and things like that were on a heavy rise,
and so she was embodied, she helped embody early feminist ideals,

(01:00:38):
representing like female empowerment and independance during a time when
the roles a woman could take on were very limited.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Right, And even in recent years, Wonder Woman's evolution has
been even more about expanding her feminist identity to be
more inclusive, representing not just women's empowerment, but also inter
sectional feminism like embracing diversity in race, sexuality, and cultural backgrounds.
But in the Wonder Woman film back in twenty seventeen,

(01:01:10):
it reintroduced her as a strong and compassionate leader who
fights for all humanity, transcending gender and representing a broader
fight for justice, equality and peace. And her character now
reflects the more modern feminist movement than back what we
had back in the forties and fifties, which is more

(01:01:30):
more inclusive and conscious of the society now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
So it's cool. Are there any modern villains potentially because
we've been talking about heroes, right, Yeah, who mirror these
mythological antagonists and then and how have their roles their
motivations adapted to fit today's narrative.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
This might be a little bit of low hanging fruit here,
but low key. It's not like he's straight from mythology.
But you know, in in the last part, well, we
were on a DC kick. But you know, in in
Norse mythology, Loki he's the god of mischief, of of deceit.

(01:02:16):
He's a he's a trickster who just likes to cause
chaos for the sake of chaos because it's entertaining. But
he also plays, you know, a pretty important role in
shaping events in Norse mythology, and in a lot of
ways he he mirrors other cultures mythology and characters like
Prometheus and Hermes who kind of questioned the status quo

(01:02:38):
and challenge authority. Now in modern times, specifically the mc U, Loki,
he's still got those trickster qualities, but he's involved, especially
in his series, into a much more complex character where
his motivations are are not just causing chaos for chaos sake,

(01:02:59):
but more out of feelings of inadequacy, especially with like
Odin and rejection. He just wants a general desire for power.
A pretty good example of this of this change in
his character was in Thor Ragnarok, where his relationship with
Thor and his changing alliances throughout the movie show how

(01:03:25):
he's a lot more morally gray than even how he
started out with in like the MCU itself kind of
aligning with the modern day narrative of complex characters who
are both kind of antagonist and anti Here you're seeing
those sort of characters pop up a lot more.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
Nowadays, for sure. And another one is Thanos. Yeah, there
was closely mirrors Cronus, who is the titan from Greek
mythology who consumed his own children to prevent them from
overthrowing him, representing the fear of loss and power of
power and control. And we see this in the In
the m c U, Thanus' motivation goes beyond power. He

(01:04:07):
believes that wiping out half the universe is unnecessary evil
to solve it from over population.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
And and and other than trying to please a girl.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
No, no, the mindset was so much better, so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Much, so much better.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
But even in the in that aspect, I mean, Thanos
sacrifices his own children a lot, a lot like Cronus.
I mean he sacrifices Camorra and then tortures Nebula, who's
who's his real daughter, like genuinely his real daughter. So
we see that that comparison there too. But how Thanos
behaves in all this is he reflects modern themes of

(01:04:46):
environmentalism and you terri you utilitarianism.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
UH.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
Villains today often believe they're acting for the greater good,
but in In Infinity War, Thanos is portrayed not just
as a tyrant or someone that that's an evil bad guy,
oh jerk, mean dude, but as a person who genuinely
believes his actions will restore balance and peace, making his
character more relatable and reflective of modern world lemmas about

(01:05:16):
sacrifice for the greater good, even to the end of
endgame when he's just like man, y'all are stupid. I
don't like this, but honestly, I think that the original
aspect of Thanos in the comics is way more captivating
for a villain than what we got in the MCU.
But another probably one of the most recognizable, if not

(01:05:37):
the most recognizable villain of all time in comics. I mean,
I can't think of one that that would be more
recognizable is the Joker, and the Joker can be seen
as a modern counterpart to figures like Eiris, the Greek
goddess of chaos, and even Hades, who governs the underworld
and represents the darker, more unpredictable forces of nature and humanity,

(01:06:00):
even though probably saying that Joker wouldn't like that because
it would be disrespectful or something.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
He just doesn't like being compared to people. But Joker's
motivations have shifted from simple madness to a more nuanced
reflection of issues in society or we live in a
society was a big thing on him from the Joker movie,
like mental illness and the breakdown of structures and society.

(01:06:26):
But he has less a supernatural force and more representation
of societal decay and inequality. But in the Joker movie
back in twenty nineteen, Arthur reflex descent into madness. It's
frame by systemic neglet and societal failure, and showing how
modern villains can embody that issues, those issues and societal critique,

(01:06:48):
making them more human and understandable than their mythological predecessors.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
But yeah, and then another one, and I find this
this villain really interesting is kill Manger from from Black Panther.
He mirrors mythological figure figures like Aris. We talked about
him earlier that the Greek god of war. You know,
Aris kind of thrives on conflict and believes that violence

(01:07:17):
is always the answer to everything. You know, he kill Manger.
His motivations are rooted in like personal trauma and history
and from his past, similar to mythological features, who are
figures who kind of seek revenge after they feel that

(01:07:38):
they're wronged, much like Loki actually in Norse mythology, but
in the modern interpretation of kill Manger, he's much more
a reflection of the historical and cultural trauma. The Black
Panther movie really does a great job discussing those topics.

(01:07:58):
He's he's driven by the oppression of the black people
of black people, making him a sympathetic, sympathetic villain who
in the end is is more of a product of
the very system he's fighting against, you know. His his

(01:08:18):
goal is to liberate the oppressed people through force, which
is a morally complex motivation that it challenges you to
kind of question the line between hero and villain in
in today's fight for for justice. I mean, it's not
like what he was doing was like his motivation was

(01:08:39):
entirely bad, right, right, so he went about it the
wrong way.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
And another anti hero we've seen kind of rise up,
especially as an anti hero in daytime in the recent
years is Venom. Venom reflects the ancient idea of the
symbioder or possession, similar to how mythological beings like like
demons or spirits could inhabit human bodies like like figures
like the Furies or other mythological figures like the Windigou

(01:09:04):
or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
But Venom the Furies.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Yeah yeah, Venom represents the internal struggle between that good
and evil. You see Eddie Brock, who, while broken and
kind of a mess, a loser, he's still good. And
then Venom, a creature created for darkness, created for evil
through evil. So those are very very different characters, much

(01:09:30):
like the duality in modern psychology. He's a villain who
grapples with his own humanity, mirroring the current themes around
identity and self control and the consequences of power. But
back in the movie in Venom, back in twenty eighteen,
Eddie's Brock's transformation is framed as a struggle between his darker,
more violent nature and rage and anger through against people

(01:09:52):
and his job and not being able to pay the bills,
and even the dude across the hall playing the guitar
too loud and his desire to protect those that he
cares about, like his girlfriend. I can't remember her name.
I think she was in both of the movies, so
I can't remember it at all, but reflecting the modern
concerns about morality, self control, and redemption. Finally, we'll see

(01:10:13):
that redemption in the last dance coming out here in
a in a couple of months.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
So yeah, it actually looks like it's really good. I've
never thought about venom and the symbiote concept as being
a parallel to to like a demon possession. Yeah, it's
a weird way to look, but it's it is similar
with it. I think it's a it's time for we
can throw in a little dad moment here. So as

(01:10:38):
we've kind of talked about through this, you know, you've
got these you've got these superheroes, you've got their mythological counterparts,
and and then you know, they teach us a lot
of things. I mean, it's something as simple as the
thrill of adventure or you know, heroism and that type
of thing. But they also are really designed and they
were they were originally built around the idea of teaching

(01:11:01):
us how to navigate the complexities of right and wrong
and and justice and and and and injustice and that
type of thing. You've got Superman, you know, he's got
that unmoi bearing sense of duty. You've got Batman who's
going to go after justice no matter what, you know
what's going on. Justice is the is the most important

(01:11:22):
thing for him, and doing and doing the right thing there.
And you have Wonder Woman's fight for equality and it's
it's not just a physical thing, it's also moral. Then
you have these villains like you guys brought up with
Loki and Killmonger that show us that that line between
good and evil can be blurred with It reflects a
lot of the challenges that we face. These stories aren't

(01:11:43):
really just tales from the past from the ancient world.
Their reflections of who we are and who we hope
to become and hope to be, you know, in a
perfect scenario, which really when we're even in our most
difficult moments, we can we can be challenged to rise bob,
to protect and to fight for what's right. So good,

(01:12:03):
good moments.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Appreciate you guys, anything else you guys want to talk about.
The Emmys were last night as of recording this, they
were last night. That was a long three and a
half hours. It was long, but the bear came away
with eleven Emmys, should have been twelve. Don't know how
you win Best Director and don't win Best Comedy Series.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
Not sure how that comedy? Yes, don't you get.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Started on this. It is a comedy, always will be
a comedy because comedies are tragedy. Is anything else you
want to talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah, I mean I gotta I gotta go and run
the first session of our actual real Marvel RPG campaign.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
So you've done your trial, Yeah, we did like a
little tests two.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
It's but now we're actually we're getting into the into
the meat and potatoes. So I'm excited to get started.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
So I gotta get a bunch of work done in
the next few days because I'm taking your mom to Well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Okay, that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
I think that's gonna pretty much do it for this week.
Thank you guys so much for listening. Excited about that.
If you have, I'd love to continue to have you
tune in and share this with other people. I think
that's going to pretty much do you this week. Anything else.
May the Fourth to be with you, May the Force
be with you, Will the poles be with you all
the way. This party is over.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
I like that monkey. Don't get technical with me, please,