August 19, 2025 • 43 mins
Is Star Wars stuck in a nostalgia trap, or can it still launch into hyperspace? This week we're joined by Paul from Heavy Spoilers to dissect the Force... and the flaws. We're asking the tough questions: Are cameos saving Star Wars, or are they sinking it faster than Luke's X-Wing on Dagobah?
We look at when fan service works (Han Solo as a mentor? Yes!) and when it face-plants harder than Jar Jar Binks (we're looking at you, rushed celebrity cameos). Paul and I explore why Andor is the rebel alliance against nostalgia bait, offering smart, grown-up storytelling that respects its audience. Plus, we pinpoint the exact moment The Mandalorian jumped the shark (hint: it involves more cameos than a Comic-Con after-party).
But it's not all doom and gloom! We discuss the bold moves Star Wars needs to make to escape the nostalgia death spiral and how we, as Star Wars dads, can champion new eras and heroes for our kids. Paul even shares a heartwarming memory of late-night Shadows of the Empire sessions with his own father – a reminder that the moments we create around these stories are what truly matter.
Tune in for a discussion about curating our Star Wars experiences, embracing anticipation, and handing the future of the galaxy far, far away to the next generation. Check out Heavy Spoilers on YouTube, follow Tatooine Sons on social media, and subscribe to the podcast! May the Force be with you!
Looking for more episodes? https://podfollow.com/tatooine-sons-a-pop-culture-podcast/home
Join our Facebook Community SPECIFICALLY for Star Wars Dads! > https://www.facebook.com/groups/starwarsdads
We look at when fan service works (Han Solo as a mentor? Yes!) and when it face-plants harder than Jar Jar Binks (we're looking at you, rushed celebrity cameos). Paul and I explore why Andor is the rebel alliance against nostalgia bait, offering smart, grown-up storytelling that respects its audience. Plus, we pinpoint the exact moment The Mandalorian jumped the shark (hint: it involves more cameos than a Comic-Con after-party).
But it's not all doom and gloom! We discuss the bold moves Star Wars needs to make to escape the nostalgia death spiral and how we, as Star Wars dads, can champion new eras and heroes for our kids. Paul even shares a heartwarming memory of late-night Shadows of the Empire sessions with his own father – a reminder that the moments we create around these stories are what truly matter.
Tune in for a discussion about curating our Star Wars experiences, embracing anticipation, and handing the future of the galaxy far, far away to the next generation. Check out Heavy Spoilers on YouTube, follow Tatooine Sons on social media, and subscribe to the podcast! May the Force be with you!
Looking for more episodes? https://podfollow.com/tatooine-sons-a-pop-culture-podcast/home
Join our Facebook Community SPECIFICALLY for Star Wars Dads! > https://www.facebook.com/groups/starwarsdads
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are cameos saving Star Wars or are they actually sinking it?
I am so excited about this week's Tattooing Sons Today.
I am honored to be joined with by Paul from
Heavy Spoilers. He recently did a video that called out
nostalgia bait in megafranchises like Star Wars, and we're going
to discuss this. We're going to talk about win fan
service works when it doesn't, why and or succeeds without
(00:24):
the cameos, the moment the Mandalorian jumped the shark, and
the bold move necessary to pull Star Wars out of
this nostalgia death spiral. Plus he's going to share at
the end a really amazing, fun father son memory that
I think every Star Wars dad listening is going to
relate to stick around. If you love the past but
want a future for Star Wars, this episode's for you.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is Tattooining Sons.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Welcome to Tattooine Sons, a Star Wars podcast, the only
fan podcast to name a cannon Star Wars creature and
to be endorsed by the writer and director of the
Last Jedian Johnson. Get ready to explore a galaxy far
far away across the generations. Here is your host, David
the bow Tie Jedi Guy, along with his special guest Paul,
(01:12):
the host of the Heavy Spoilers YouTube channel.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I like this girl.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Was there a specific moment or something that caused you
to start to really grab understand that this nostalgia bait
was damaging these franchises. Was it a character return, a
plot twist, or something like that. What was it that
really grabbed that that idea for you.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I think it was probably the MCU. Actually, I do
like the return of Robert Downey Jr. But then I
think that we've kind of hit a point where it's
almost like break glass in case of emergency, where there's
so many different companies that are trying to really do
something different and maybe break them old, and then you
(01:53):
see it flop or underperform slightly and they immediately go
back to what's worked twenty years ago or what's worked
in the past, and you see that happening with a
lot of different franchises. I think, yeah, so it was
probably that, and then obviously doctor who recently did it
going back to Billy Piper. They also went back to
David Tennant just before that, and it does kind of
(02:14):
feel like they're trying to do something different, but ultimately
they're taking it in a different direction where it might
not necessarily please the hardcore fans, and in the same breath,
it doesn't bring anyone on board. And I find a
lot of companies actually fall victim to this, where they
desperately chase after a new audience at the behest of
(02:34):
getting rid of their old fans, and it's a bit
difficult to get new people involved, so they do tend
to go back to the well. And it's just something
I've noticed. I mean, everyone knows that at this point,
you know, the nostalgia thing. Often when you watch a
trailer that they'll have that oh moment or whatever. No
Way Home was kind of obviously really popular, and I
(02:54):
remember the trailer revealing Doctor Octopus at the end of it,
which was a great moment, had the pumpkin bomb as well,
and I feel like Spider Man has valiantly tried to
step away from that now and there's been lots of
reports about it being a grounded story. I think Spider
Man is successful enough where they can do that and
not worry about it. So yeah, I think spectacle is
(03:18):
often a dangerous loop that you can get trapped into
and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I'm a big James Bond fan, and I've been reworking,
working back through a lot of the series and Moonraker,
where it took things to space that would be you know,
I think a lot of franchises would actually have difficulty
coming back from that these days. And the next film
they did was For Your Eyes Only, which is I
(03:45):
think the grittiest, most down to earth Roger Moore film,
and I feel like because they did that so quickly,
kind of set fan expectations of, right, we're not going
to be going to space every single movie or doing
something that upseted it. That was a one off and
we're back down. But things like the MCU. You know,
they did Endgame and then they did Multiverse. No it
(04:10):
was no it was no Way Home. The Pandemic, Yeah, yeah,
no Way Home. In Multiverse of Madness, were very kind
of banking on cameos and bringing people back, and then
you've had Deadpool and Wolverine and they've kind of hit
that point. I think Star Wars is in a similar
position where you know, the Akoli they tried with that
to do something different Asca is going over to a
(04:32):
whole different universe. But it does feel like they've always
kind of even announcing the Ray movie, it's kind of
like they're panicking and going back to like, well, those
sequel trilogies, you know, they weren't necessarily beloved by a
certain section of the Fine Group, but a lot of
them made either over a billion or close to a billion,
(04:54):
or did Force Awakens make over two billion?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Something like that? That was crazy.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, But even that movie itself kind of played into
the nostalgia bait with it, you know, with the way
that it was almost a retread of a New Hope
with the you know, the chewy We're home and the
lay of stuff and all of that, and they struggled.
They were trying, they were trying to move on, but
they were also struggling with this pull back to it.
And then the Last Jedi really caused that to overreaction
(05:23):
in my opinion, when it comes to the way that
they move forward with the Rise of Skywalker. The backlash, Yes,
Jedi caused that with it. What are some other examples
you've seen in the Disney Plus era when it comes
to Star Wars. You mentioned the Acolyte and things like that.
But then you have shows like andor that that have
have kind of moved into a completely different direction and
not been a cameo fest. What are some good examples
(05:45):
of how they moved forward effectively and some struggles that
they've had in the Disney Plus era, I.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Think and al I think the Mandalorian was kind of
a double edged sword because it showed they could move
forward in a different direction. And then you know, they
were basically trying to make a Boba Fette show, But
it was around the time that it was like, hmmm,
do we necessarily want to, you know, lean on George's
stuff too much? So they made The Mandalorian, which is
(06:11):
kind of very heavily influenced by Boba Fette and kind
of pulls a lot of the cool like canography from him.
But then they brought Boba Fette into season two, and
then they ended with Luke Skywalker. So the Mandalorian season
one it kind of showed me that they don't need
to necessarily bank on these classic nostalgia things. Sure you
have the imagery and like clear nuts to things like
(06:32):
IG eighty eight, but they were very much carving out
their own space in it. Whereas season two was kind
of like the flip side of that, where it was
like get Boba Fett and you know, end episode one
teasing Boba Fette and then like even the spurs in
season one where you could see Boba Fette's feet. I
remember there being lots of different fan theories and I
(06:52):
was very much of the camp it's not Bobaffett because
they're not going back to the well, but even ending
on Luke Skywalker, and then they tried to do the
Bobafette show, and then in that show they had the
Mandalorian coming halfway through in hijacket because he was now
the more popular character. And you kind of hit this
point where you're just circling these characters instead of going
(07:14):
off into a different direction, and it almost becomes the
corporate side of it becomes very very transparent, I feel,
and audiences are very sophisticated towards that they instantly recognize
when something or someone's been pulled in now as a
way to make money, rather than it being like a
we genuinely have a story to tell here, and I
(07:35):
feel a lot of the franchises are kind of getting
stuck into that where it's kind of have the they
know what's going to make money, so they greenlight the project,
rather than having a good idea where that base makes
the project itself.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You know, as a dad that grew up in the
original trilogy era and has sons that came into Star
Wars during the sequel trilogies and Star Wars Rebels and
all of that, and you know this has become our
thing with it. I should love the nostalgia stuff. I
should be super excited when when Boba fet shows up
or when Luke shows up and that kind of stuff.
But at the same time, there's an element to this
(08:13):
that feels like when they do it, it's hollow. I mean,
you talk about Robert Tanny Junior in the Doom stuff
that happened when they made that announcement at Sandy Oocomic Con.
I mean, I wasn't with my sons when that moment happened,
but we have our group chat and we're like texting
each other on it, and we're all like, this feels
desperate and it's the same type of thing. What's an
example from your in your in your mind of a
(08:37):
good nostalgic moment that enhances a story versus bad ones
that feel like just cheap fan service.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I mean, off the top of my head, I can't
think of anything. Maybe No Way Home, because I think
they were used more than cameos there, and it was
very much Topy and Andrew Garfield acting as mentors for
kind of like when Spider Man's at as lowest point,
(09:06):
his aunt May's dead, He's very much on his own,
and they're kind of like, look, bad stuff's happened to me.
You get back on the horse. Remember, with power comes
with great power comes great responsibility. There are, yeah, there
are those moments where I think, when it's done correctly,
it feels like a passing of the torch and even
the force awakens. Did that really well? I think where
(09:29):
you know it was and then they kind of messed up.
But hand In that is very much kind of a
mentor figure, and he sort of fits the Obi one
persona in that film where he gets killed halfway Thron
has a great impact on Ray and kind of pushes
her forward. So I think when it's used in those
kind of ways where it's very much a sort of
(09:49):
goodbye to the past, it works well. Not when it's
like this is the past and we're going to keep
bringing it back and bringing it back, and bring it
back and tell you're sick of it. I think when
it's done in small doses, in a respectful way, where
it's a handoff, that's when it works.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Well, you're a moment ago you were talking about the
corporate side of it, right, and so there's always there's
the story side of it, and then there's the business
side of it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And Hollywood loves safe bets, and for.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Them, it seems like nostalgia is like you talked about,
They run back to it when things aren't going well
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Is it really a safe bet long term? Are we?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
You know, from your perspective, sacrificing sort of the potential
future fans for the sake of a quick buck for
all of us that just want to go see Luke
Skywalker again, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, I do think that as well. And I think again,
it kind of sets the fan expectation where you are
expecting these things now, and it's almost kind of becomes
the norm for the series. I think Star Wars is
kind of, you know, a snake eating its own tail
at this point. Indiana Jones like a similar thing where
(10:57):
I mean they just announced a Rambo origin story, and
it's like, well, first Blood is the origin story? What
you want about?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I think.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
You run into like the danger of it becoming transparently corporate.
And it's clear that these characters are just being brought
back because they have no other ideas to tell and
rather than taking a break on stuff, which I think
they often should do, they kind of run it into
the ground instead of giving it breathing space. Like these
characters resonate. It's always like, no, we're hitting you with
(11:28):
the next thing. How much money can we get out
of you by constantly bringing these things back? And if
you think about Star Wars did have the perfect business model?
You know you had your original trilogy, took a break,
got fans excited, announced the prequel trilogy, took another break,
never oh it's never coming back. Stars is never coming back,
and then when it comes back you get excited. Whereas
(11:50):
with what Disney have done now, I feel that we're
not going to We're not missing Star Wars, And I
think the anticipation is very important in these kinds of things,
not souring you on it and thinking like like like
what Marvel are doing where it's like, oh, it's another
Disney Plus show or it's another thing I have to watch.
It's kind of like if they'd actually taken a break
after Endgame. As much as I enjoy some of the
(12:13):
projects that followed, I feel like it gives you a
bit of time in between, and like even again with
James Bond, going back to that, you know, I think
James Bond's remained relevant for over sixty five years at
this point because it's not always in your face. You know,
you build up to this big event and then they
take a break. Even I mean, they Amazon own it
(12:35):
now and they could easily be rushing out project after project,
but they're still saying, look, we're just making it a
theatrical event. That might be stuff down the line, but
for the moment, James Bond is remaining this way, and
you kind of get excited for the casting and who's
gonna have their take on it, And you know, Denny
Villanov's attached to it now, Whereas I think if they'd
(12:56):
just done like streaming show, streaming show, streaming show, James
Bond streaming show, you wouldn't be getting that kind of
guy interested in it because they'd be running to the ground.
And I think Disney Plus has just harmed so many
franchises across the board because it's giving us a lot
of slop a lot of the time, and your taste
kind of it gets oversaturated, it really does. It's you know,
(13:18):
these things lose their appeal and the special kind of
want around them. They almost mythic status because it's always there,
you know. He kind of like, I remember going to
see the prequel trilogy with my dad, Whereas if Star
Wars came out of the cinema now, and I don't
know if I'd be like, oh, this is like an
ex bonding experience with me and my kid, It's just
(13:40):
like it's another one and there's a streaming show next week,
and yeah, it's too much.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's exactly the situation that I've lived out with my sons.
I mean, they were twenty fifteen, they would have been
eleven and oh no.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
So like that teen effect age.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Ten and fourteen, right, And so we hadn't we hadn't
had Star Wars, we hadn't had that cinematic experience, and
so going you know, this is even before I mean,
it's hard to believe it's been about ten years or so,
but we didn't have reserved seats at these movies, so
you had to go, and you had to wait in
line for two to three hours, and and that bonding
experience with the fans and the crowd and all of that.
(14:21):
And now it's kind of like and Or comes out,
and we love Star Wars. I mean we've we've been
podcasting about it for eight years now. But you know,
we're sitting there and we're like, Oh, are we gonna
watch it when it comes out tonight or are we
going to wait a couple days and see it?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
You know, I mean it's it's lost, it's luster.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
And I think we see the same thing with like
Fantastic Four, with a great movie, but at the same time,
it's not performed as well in the box office as
anybody expected. Some of that's the way that the cinema
has changed, but others it's just people are like, we'll
get to it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
When we get to it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It'll be on streaming in thirty forty five days anyway
with it.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
What do you think Star Wars can learn?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
You know they're trying to pause, right, It's been a
while since we've had thing other than I mean, we
had to ander obviously, but we haven't had anything in
the cinema since twenty nineteen, and it's going to be
next May before we get it. Is there anything that
you see Star Wars doing that seems to be that
they're trying to learn some lessons from what's going on
with the MCU.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Not really, you know, I think in a perfect world,
they would have ended the sequel trilogy, maybe done a
couple of spin offs and stuff, maybe done like one
big standalone movie like The Rogue Squadron, and then taking
a break and maybe giving it ten years and then
brought Daisy Ridley back, and you know, I mean, suppose
(15:36):
it has been ten years since The Force Awakens, but
give it a break where we kind of missed these characters.
And then it's like the kids who grew up on
the sequel trilogy, they'll be like, oh, we're learning, Like
Daisy Ridley's back is Ray and she's teaching her own students.
And then it's these students that go on to be
the main characters. And then it's kind of a passing
of the torch thing again, whereas now everything's just so
(15:59):
it's always there, so you don't necessarily get a chance
to step back. I do think it breaks needed. I
think Star Wars is obviously, you know, Kathleen Kennedy's such
a maligned figure as part of the franchise. I think
when they change CEO, which will inevitably happen quite soon,
that the new person should kind of say, look, this
is a plan for the next five years and then
(16:21):
stop and then that's it. And that's that's kind of
the era of it. And just even if you're saying, look,
we're not making any more Star Wars movies, just say that,
like work away in the background, maybe come.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
They didn't at the end of the trilogy or both
of the previous trilogies, they acted like it was over.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
So yeah, exactly, Yeah, and do that and make people
miss it, and then when something big comes along, it's great.
And I think there's other mediums you can kind of
keep interest up in, like video games. Star Wars has
always had, you know, video games and comics that have
kept people publicipated for it is huge.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Yeah, again, James, I'll kind of keep banging on about
James Bond. But obviously you've seen the new James One
game that's coming out, which is kind of like a
soft introduction to a new younger James Bond before they
inevitably recast the next one. And the Batman Arkham series,
you know, that kind of took over when the Dark
Knight trilogy ended, and there's other mediums to explore stuff through.
(17:16):
And I mean, like, yeah, the N sixty four is
to play Rogue Squadron all the time. Shadows of the
Empire Stars was still alive for the hardcore fans, but
it wasn't you know, doing the heads in of the
general audience who weren't necessarily that interested. And now kind
of feels like they're constantly chasing that big, massive success
(17:37):
and you don't always have to, you know, limit your budgets,
have that control and just kind of keep things ticking
away in the background, and then when it's a big
cinematic event, amazing people will be back on board. But
I think you need to just kind of tone things back,
understand where the love and allegiances are, and keep those
fans happy. But you don't need to necessarily pile the
(18:00):
market with these these properties all the time, which is
against a corporate idea.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Oh yeah, but yeah, it's about making billions, right, and
and Star Wars should do that in their mind, and
so they're struggling to figure out why it's not. But
then you have we have other franchises. They have like this,
the Jurassic franchise, that is some weird thing. I never expect.
I go to every one of them when they come out.
I never expected to do great at the box office.
This last one did eight hundred plus billion dollars or
(18:28):
a million dollars.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
At the at the box office.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Why do you think that the Jurassic franchise stays successful
in the box office when it's just almost a rinse
and repeat every single movie.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think kids are unnecessarily you know, kids slip dinosaurs,
and my kids are three years old, and I just, yeah,
totally see how much kids slip dinosaurs and anything that's
going they're going to live. But it's also kids horror
as well. There's kind of kids do like horror, but
it needs to be at a certain level, and I
think the Jurassic films kind of walk that fine line
(19:05):
of being like spectacle horror as well. You know, it's
got those The thing is with that, the dinosaurs can
be lots of different things in those movies. So for example,
you can have like a nice cute dinosaur that's a
little cuddly thing, but then on the flip side of it,
you've got the terrifying ones. And then you've even got
ones like the t rex who are kind of like
anti heroes where it's like one film they're a villain,
(19:26):
but then they show up later on the franchise it's like, yeah,
it's what a hero that bloody t rexes. So I
think it does tick a lot of the boxes and
kind of what an audience want to see from something,
and it's not always there again, you know a Jurassic World,
the Disney.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Flush shows or stuff like that with it.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Yeah, it's one of those franchises where it never really
feels like it's always there. It's just kind of like,
I mean, even this last one's kind of came and gone,
but it's made a lot of money. So I think
they've done a really good job of kind of keeping
it successful and appealing to people without you know, necessarily
(20:06):
kickstarting a culture war amongst fans as well. I think
I think, yeah, I think culture war stuff can kind
of drag this down as well. And I think the
longer that a property goes on in the mainstream. It
kind of gets attached to that stuff because you get
the stars asked like questions, or someone will say something
that gets misquoted in a tweet and then it'll blow
up everywhere. So yeah, they've they've done a good job
(20:29):
of actually handling that ip where it doesn't annoy people.
Still appeals to people. Isn't necessarily good either, but it's
always something that people are like, oh, well, I go
say that at the cinema. It's not offensive to anyone,
you know what I mean, right, it's not ruining your childhood.
You're not like Sam Neil. But maybe maybe that's another
thing because because people are obviously very very attached to
(20:52):
Star Wars, like people make it their identity, you know,
people who call their religion Jedi. No one's that attached
to the Jurassic movies. But even though it's quite a
big thing, like that was the second film I ever
saw the cinema, Jurassic Park, and I went with my dad,
and I remember it like it's a massive part of
my childhood. But I don't think there's anything in those movies,
(21:14):
like the newer ones, that I'm going to be like
it destroyed my childhood, you know what I mean, it's
just like, oh, it was a bad film.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, i'd be you know, Chris pont Or.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
You destroyed my childhood, Chris exactly, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
That's so funny, you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Know it And a lot of times, I mean, there
have been so many cameos in this in this era
of Star Wars, right, you've got you know, it all
kind of started with with Luke Show.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I mean it actually even before that.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I mean you had Bokaton, you had a Soka and
those types of things, Boba Fett showing up and then
culminating Cad Band showing up. Yeah, what's been like the
one cameo in this modern area of Star Wars that
really worked for you? And what's the most was like egregious,
(22:01):
like screw up that they did when when it comes
to cameos.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Right, egregious. One I can tell you straight away is
Jack Black and Lizzo. That was when I really feel that, Yeah,
Star Wars jumped the shark because Star Wars has never
really been like celebrities and stuff. It's always been like
quite unknown actors playing pretty much all the parts. I mean,
Harrison Ford's obviously a massive name, but that there's never
(22:28):
really you know, he wasn't that when he first.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Started, when we started with this franchise started.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Yet they've never really cast like a big even the
sequel trilogy, you know what I mean, it was like
Daisy Ridley, like, who the hell's that Adam Driver? No
one knew who he was at the time. It's always
been very low key actors, and then to have that,
it was like it takes shower, but you know what
I mean, you like what so? Yeah, yeah, totally. I
mean he was completely overshadowed by those I'll let Christopher
(22:55):
Lloyd off. I forgot about that. Yeah, so I think
that was kind of when it was like the Mandalorian
season three, ain't recovering missing that? Who was my favorite character?
I mean, obviously the Luke Skywalker thing was a massive thing.
I think every it.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Was like a sugar wresh.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's what so many of these are, right, They're just
like they get you really excited for a few minutes
and then you're kind of like later on you're like,
I don't know, did it work?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah? I actually prefer his cameo in Bucker Boba Fett
when he's training grow gu I think the effect totally better. Yeah,
it's kind of like he's presenting a choice to grow
gu But yeah, that was the massive thing. Obviously, Cat
(23:45):
Baine I quite liked, just because he was dead and
to see I didn't. It's always the cameos that are
big to a Star Wars fan that you don't actually
necessarily think are big enough to bring to the live action. So,
for example, cad Be, because you're constantly thinking, like, well,
(24:07):
is anyone watching this going to know who he is
unless they've seen like an animated series from yes ago.
And the fact that they brought him in and he
had like the metal plate on his head and stuff,
and he's kind of Barber Fett's rival. That was really cool.
Graham Off talking as well, I remember in Rogue one
the effects not aged that well, but I remember that
(24:27):
they did so much stuff in Rogue one that was great.
Darth Vader Hallway at the end, I will say, I
don't think Disney have messed up Darth Vader once yet.
I think they've always nailed you know, toss everything else
to the side. One thing you can say, they've never
messed up Darth Vader. They've always got him right, So
(24:48):
you know, end of Rogue one. I mean they it's
episode three. I think, well, they tease him at the
end of episode two when he's in the tank and
his eyes wake up and say oh, And then I
think episode three just like walks into that town and
like forced by the neck and starts dragging them along
(25:09):
the ground, like using the force. So they always have
him really intimidating. Yeah, I think Darth Vader used sparingly
is great, and he's kind of those kind of cameos
are like, obviously, you know, it's an OBI one show,
so you can expect something like that, But like Lea
gets a lot of crap in that, But I thought
she was fine.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
So I'm also partial to to Lea's dad showing up
just in the odd Yeah, I know they recast him
for and Or, but just seeing him put he's floating
around this time, Yeah, floating around.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
And Or has took a completely different approach, like no cameos.
I I've argued that you could have almost set and
Or in any other universe and the story would have
been just as effective with a different, you know, evil
Empire type situation.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah, it's very Blade Runner. I remember watching episode one
of that thing and this is just Blade Runner.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
What is it about? And or that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Kind of breaks that nostalgia cycle and offers something fresh
and compelling for you.
Speaker 4 (26:20):
I think because it's it's growing, it's treating the audience
with respect, and it's growing up with the audience. Now,
kids might find it boring them, they really might find
it like rubbish. But I think for people our age,
you kind of we I mean, they always say Star
Wars is for kids, but evidently not because lots of
adults still watch it. So I think having you know,
(26:41):
a version of it for adults at least where they swear,
you know, they deal with quite weighty things. I remember
the sexual assault thing being quite a big talking point
at the time, and you'd never expect to see that
in Star Wars. It's tackling things that you can definitely
apply to the real world. And it shows how good
Star Wars can be when it is tackling those things
(27:05):
and creatives given leeway to do those things, given a
good budget, and given the freedom to kind of write
and direct and shoot things in a way that appeals
to adults rather than just like flashy cartoons and you know,
Yoda fighting Countuku and spinning around and stuff. So I
think it was good because it added that extra di
(27:25):
I mentioned that felt lacking from some of the other
Disney Plus stuff. I feel like Disney Plus they've kind
of falling into a formula a lot with their shows,
and you see that a lot with the MCU. And
it got to the point when we were doing breakdowns
on it, and I mean I was getting to the
finale and I was thinking, I pretty much know how
this finale is gonna go. And it was only really
(27:47):
low key season one and two that subverted my expectations.
But I think and Or has just been given that respect,
and because he's not necessarily a favorite character. You know,
I don't know how many many people own an and
Or action figure, but because of that, they can kind
of do what they want and they're notn't necessarily held
(28:09):
back by that kind of fan expectation, and fans like
outcry on social media. It's say, oh you didn't, Luke
wouldn't do this, that sort of thing With and Or,
It's like you, basically you can He's a blank slate
where you can do anything, and you can have him
go to like a prison one, you know, set of
episodes to do a heist the next one, or you know,
(28:30):
pretend to be someone. There's lots of range that you
can do with him, where fans aren't necessarily going to
say that's the wrong way to take It's it's similar
to Peacemaker and Superman. So I've just seen the newest
the latest episode of Peacemaker. There's episode one of season two.
Loved it, very good. Superman I didn't like it. I
(28:52):
wasn't too hot on it, and I think that's because
I have my expectations of what Superman is and what
Superman movie should be. Whereas Peacemaker, it's just like there's
loads of crazy stuff happening in that show, and I'm like, yeah, great,
Whereas if Superman was saying those lines are be what
the hell is this?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
You know, it's funny because no one's no one's more
critical of Star Wars the than Star Wars fans with it.
But in the end, we all I think I think
there are those that there's there's the grifters that that
want to make, you know, get clicks and make money
off of not of it failing every time, but most
(29:30):
fans really do want to see us succeed.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What's one bold move that k would just pull Star
Wars out of that nest all just death spiral.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
I'm surprised Ahsoka came back to the main universe because
when they went off to the new one, I'm like, Oh,
they can do anything here. They've got total free even
the little natty who like them little turtle guys with
the little suits on them, like they can do whatever
they want. Yet and I was surprised they brought it back.
And I was kind of hoping like a Zon trilogy
(30:03):
set off in that universe, where you know, you take
elements of like Thrawn and then that sort of thing
and do it over there and then it's not necessarily
impacting the main line. I think kind of what House
of the Drive, I mean, Game of Thrones is like
the perfect example of like, we messed up the ending
of this, people don't like it. How do you bring
it back? You kind of need to remove everything from
(30:27):
that main timeline or when we expect stuff to be set.
So Knights of the Old Republic, I think what James
Mangold's doing is a good idea where he's kind of
setting it like and I know they tried to do
that with the Acolyte, But then they still had things
like Kiadi Munday show up where it was just like fine, yeah,
annoying people. So I would say, just take everything to.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Everybody than that and change and you know, we're freaked
out about the cannon from that piece.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Yeah, and it's not necessary. It doesn't make or break
the show, you know what I mean. But people were
just obsessing over it. So I would say, do Copyhouse
of the Dragon, Do maybe a prequel or thousand years
in the future where none of this stuff matters anymore,
and if they find artifacts because they're in the future,
that kind of ties and that's a nice little least
rag but there's not necessarily the big thing that like, yeah,
(31:19):
a character like Andor And you know what I was
saying before about fans being attached to certain characters, If
you go back to the past, there's no attachment to them,
and you can kind of do what you want and
there's no expectations, and they can mess around with characters
and basically have a certain leeway that you don't necessarily
get in the main line.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Coming up in a couple of years, we're going to
have the Starfighter movie with Ryan Gosling as the primary character,
which I think that's probably the first time we've had
an A list actor headline a Star Wars since probably
Qui gon Jin with low Leanniesen in The Phantom Menace.
(31:58):
With that, what do you feel about about a Star
Wars movie with a with an A list headliner.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
It depends what kind of actor it is. I think
Ryan Gosling is very selective of what he chooses to
jump onto. I don't think Ryan Gosling would ever sign
on to something just for the sake of, you know,
cashing a check or doing it. You might have done
that for this, But when I think of that him
as an actor, I think of well, I mean before
(32:25):
Barbie obviously he was like a billion dollars, but I
think of him as being like a sort of early
days Christian Bale, where it was kind of like he
kind of expect him to not to have, like you know,
it's it's good, It's gonna be good no matter what,
and he'll be great in it. And I think that
with Grian Gosling. I think you need to get respected
actors who yeah have selected projects in the past purely
(32:51):
because of the product, Like right, Robert Pattinson. Sorry, that's
another good example where he signed on to Batman, but
he's not been just doing things for the sake of
doing them, and it's clear that he has, you know,
he wants to be respected in his career. So an
actor like that, I think an A lista like that
can be good. Whereas if he got like The Rock,
I think people would be a bit like Kevin har
(33:12):
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
What's the what's the craziest casting that you would that
you would you know, you could imagine in a Star
Wars He's the craziest person you would bring it.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
I mean Jack.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Jack Black and Star Wars was part of Probably.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Give him a full spin off Disney Plus.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's right, there's a new Disney Plus show coming out.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Its Law. Even Jude Law was quite that's true. Yeah,
I mean it feels like that show is kind of
came and gone, and even like remembering that Tude Law
was in the Star Wars things quite quite a weird thing.
Colin Firth, Yeah, I'll have a Colin Firth.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It show up as a Jedi master somewhere. Yeah. Of course, what.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Does the future of Star Wars look like if it
continues in this. You know, you called it a death spiral, right,
It's almost impossible out of that. What's the future of
Star Wars look like if they don't if they don't
make some radical changes.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
I think it'll go back to being like in a
very nerdy property where it's like you're seen as a
loser for liking it. Yeah, it's difficult to predict the
future with Star Wars. I think a lot of it
is kind of tied to the management behind that at
the moment, and where it's kind of like people hate Disney,
they hate Disney Star Wars, they hate Kathleen Kennedy, and
(34:38):
I feel like it needs kind of a changing of
the god and a break and for them to basically
I'm gonna mention James twond again, but you know what
I mean. When Amazon took over, everyone's like, oh, no,
what's going on? And then you know, you hear Amy
Pascal's signed up to and they say, oh, what they're
doing here? But then they get Denny Billanove and the
(34:58):
right as attached to it, and you start hearing who
they're actually auditioning for it, and it makes it sound
like they're taking it seriously. So I'd love to see
like a stop gap where it's just like, right, this
is it. Change creatives, we're working on something in the background,
it's going to be out in the next five years.
Then slowly trickle announcements out like a big name director
(35:20):
or say they've got George Lucas back to consult on it.
Just something that kind of shows that they're taking it
seriously and not milking it for content. On a streaming service,
I think that would be the way to do it.
I think in general, just streaming has kind of diluted
so many brands that it's difficult to It's just difficult
to say how much damage that's done, and I feel
like taking a break from it would heal a lot
(35:42):
of the wounds. It's kind of like during COVID when
they were saying like, oh, the ozonly is clearing up
in the oceans, Like, yeah, got less pollution in because
everyone's in the house and not driving cars all the time.
Going to get some crazy comments because of that on
the video, but that's the kind of thing I think
you need where you just take a step back, don't
(36:03):
let anyone know what's going on, and then slowly you
roll out tiny little announcements say they're working on this,
they're working on that. Oh that sounds good. Yeah, you
kind of need new shit. I mean, we've seen so
many franchises pulled back from the brink, and you know,
like I said, I was been working on an alien
versus Predator thing that pretty much killed both franchises, and
(36:23):
then you had Prometheus and Alien Covenant that also destroyed them,
and then they kind of took a break. They even
were doing Pray as a streaming movie, and then people
liked it and it's like, oh, well, Alien Romuliz was
going to be streaming, why don't we put that in
the theater. And it's kind of built up this fan
base again. And now we're getting like two Predator films
(36:44):
the year and they're both really good, and yeah, just
kind of taking things back to square one and giving
people a rest and just being like, look, we're in
a bad spot at the moment, so we're not going
to give you more. We're just gonna take a step back,
get people in who are passionate about it, and make
the best quality thing possible and slowly win people back.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
A couple of months ago, the Ruy Mill had Kathern
Kennedy stepping down the end of this year and Dave
Filoni and carried Back kind of stepping in to this
role with that. What are your thoughts on Antaloney and
backs as they do?
Speaker 4 (37:20):
You quite like Feloney. I think he kind of gets
almost sort of in a James Gun way. He's his
own projects. He's very kind of right, these are what
people are, what I'm going to push either way, And
I think Colony does kind of push a lot of
his characters like Asoka love Her, but there's often the criticism.
It's like he's more interested in doing his own things
(37:42):
in Wolves all the time and stuff. But I do
think Faloney is out of all the contenders out there,
I think Faloney's got the safest hands when it comes
to the handling of this franchise. And I don't think
he would make anything just for the sake of pushing
in product out there. I think for him there would
have to be a level of quality, and he might
(38:04):
not always hit it. He might have some misses, but
I think they would be better Shepherds of net you know,
the corporate side of things, which I feels very present
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Favorite Star Wars Memory with your dad.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
So on Shadows of the Empire, there's the Boba Fat
level where he kill him and then he comes back
and slave one and it takes about an hour to
get to that point playing the game, and I remember
me and my dad we just couldn't get past it.
And I'll always remember waking up in bed in the
middle of the night and my dad was like very
(38:41):
dimly lit room, headphones in plugged into the TV, sitting
trying to play through this level to do it. And
then I watched him and he got killed, and I
think he just got up and left. But it was
nice that bonding. It was nice that bonding that we
had this thing that we kind of played together and
we couldn't get past. We did eventual, but yeah, I
remember there's like so many memories that have attached to
(39:04):
Shadows of the Empire with my dad, where we just
used to play all the time, and yeah, there was
a lot of difficult things in that game, but we
loved it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
We loved it.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Would you like to see them try to pull in
some of the ideas in the in the characters from
Shadows of the Empire into a into a Star Wars production.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
I'm surprised they haven't brought dash Render across, to be honest,
because he is pretty Instead of doing a solo movie,
do a dash Render movie. You know what I mean.
He's kind of like your hand solo archetype where you're
not annoying people or he's not getting compared to Harrison Ford,
he's kind of his own character. Same with Mandalorian and
Boba Fett, you know what I mean. It's kind of
like sort of the same, but there's enough differences where
(39:46):
it doesn't annoy you. If they mess him up.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Don't get technical with me.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Such a cool conversation, all right, here's the big takeaway
from this conversation with Paul. Not all nostalgia is created equal.
These quick hit it cameos can feel like a sugar rush.
It's fun for a minute, but then it's forgettable the
next What lasts is when the past propels the story forward.
(40:12):
So think of Han in the Force Awakens as a mentor,
or how they've used Vader really sparingly but perfectly. That's
nostalgia that builds something for the future generations to stand
on when it comes to Star Wars. We also talked
about how and Or really broke this cycle. There's no
cameo bingo card, just smart, grown up storytelling that respects
(40:36):
the audience. And so for us dads, that's great watch
with your teens kind of Star Wars shows to watch.
On the flip side, we've got when the Mandalorian sort
of swung back toward cameos and then had these crazy
celebrity drop ins that pulled us out of the galaxy.
What it did was it exposed the corporate menacing in
(40:59):
this this stories, and fans feel that and our kids
do too. And then I absolutely loved Paul's favorite dad memory,
those late nights with his own father stuck on the
Boba Fette slave one leveled in Shadows of the Empire.
That is the heart of it. The movies and the
shows they matter, but the moments that we create around
them matter more. So let's curate what we watch. Let's
(41:24):
make some of it an event. Again, be okay with
waiting to watch it together. Anticipation is a feature, it's
not a bug. This is what being a Star Wars
dad is all about. And then the Bolds move that
Star Wars needs and that we can model with the
way we approach Star Wars it's to really champion these
(41:45):
new eras and these new heroes while keeping the legends
as legends. That's how we share our love of the
past and hand the future to our kids. I really
want you. If you aren't already a fan of heavy spoilers,
you must be sleeping under a rock. But if you aren't,
check them out. Go to YouTube, subscribe to Paul and
heavy spoilers and great content, always honest and still positive.
(42:11):
There's never anything toxic with Paul. I absolutely love that.
And then, of course make sure you're following Tattooing Sons
on all of our social channels channels subscribe to the podcast.
We would love to interact with you there as well.
Thanks so much until next week. May the Course be
with you.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Thank you for listening to Tattooine Suns, a Star Wars podcast.
Please subscribe and follow Tattooine Suns on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
or your favorite podcast app. Tattooine Suns regularly publishes thoughtful
articles intended to provoke conversation about the larger themes and
Star Wars. Go to tattooinesuns dot com to explore further,
(42:50):
and May the Force be with you always.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
This podcast, website, and social media accounts are not endorsed
by the Walt Disney Company or Lucasfilm Limited, and it's
intended for entertainment purposes only.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Star Wars names and sounds, and any other Star Wars
related items and properties are trademarks of Lucasfilm Limited and
its affiliates. All original contents of this podcast and website
is the intellectual property of Tattooing Suns, unless otherwise indicated.
Are cameos saving Star Wars or are they actually sinking it?
I am so excited about this week's Tattooing Sons Today.
I am honored to be joined with by Paul from
Heavy Spoilers. He recently did a video that called out
nostalgia bait in megafranchises like Star Wars, and we're going
to discuss this. We're going to talk about win fan
service works when it doesn't, why and or succeeds without
(00:24):
the cameos, the moment the Mandalorian jumped the shark, and
the bold move necessary to pull Star Wars out of
this nostalgia death spiral. Plus he's going to share at
the end a really amazing, fun father son memory that
I think every Star Wars dad listening is going to
relate to stick around. If you love the past but
want a future for Star Wars, this episode's for you.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is Tattooining Sons.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Welcome to Tattooine Sons, a Star Wars podcast, the only
fan podcast to name a cannon Star Wars creature and
to be endorsed by the writer and director of the
Last Jedian Johnson. Get ready to explore a galaxy far
far away across the generations. Here is your host, David
the bow Tie Jedi Guy, along with his special guest Paul,
(01:12):
the host of the Heavy Spoilers YouTube channel.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I like this girl.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Was there a specific moment or something that caused you
to start to really grab understand that this nostalgia bait
was damaging these franchises. Was it a character return, a
plot twist, or something like that. What was it that
really grabbed that that idea for you.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I think it was probably the MCU. Actually, I do
like the return of Robert Downey Jr. But then I
think that we've kind of hit a point where it's
almost like break glass in case of emergency, where there's
so many different companies that are trying to really do
something different and maybe break them old, and then you
(01:53):
see it flop or underperform slightly and they immediately go
back to what's worked twenty years ago or what's worked
in the past, and you see that happening with a
lot of different franchises. I think, yeah, so it was
probably that, and then obviously doctor who recently did it
going back to Billy Piper. They also went back to
David Tennant just before that, and it does kind of
(02:14):
feel like they're trying to do something different, but ultimately
they're taking it in a different direction where it might
not necessarily please the hardcore fans, and in the same breath,
it doesn't bring anyone on board. And I find a
lot of companies actually fall victim to this, where they
desperately chase after a new audience at the behest of
(02:34):
getting rid of their old fans, and it's a bit
difficult to get new people involved, so they do tend
to go back to the well. And it's just something
I've noticed. I mean, everyone knows that at this point,
you know, the nostalgia thing. Often when you watch a
trailer that they'll have that oh moment or whatever. No
Way Home was kind of obviously really popular, and I
(02:54):
remember the trailer revealing Doctor Octopus at the end of it,
which was a great moment, had the pumpkin bomb as well,
and I feel like Spider Man has valiantly tried to
step away from that now and there's been lots of
reports about it being a grounded story. I think Spider
Man is successful enough where they can do that and
not worry about it. So yeah, I think spectacle is
(03:18):
often a dangerous loop that you can get trapped into
and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I'm a big James Bond fan, and I've been reworking,
working back through a lot of the series and Moonraker,
where it took things to space that would be you know,
I think a lot of franchises would actually have difficulty
coming back from that these days. And the next film
they did was For Your Eyes Only, which is I
(03:45):
think the grittiest, most down to earth Roger Moore film,
and I feel like because they did that so quickly,
kind of set fan expectations of, right, we're not going
to be going to space every single movie or doing
something that upseted it. That was a one off and
we're back down. But things like the MCU. You know,
they did Endgame and then they did Multiverse. No it
(04:10):
was no it was no Way Home. The Pandemic, Yeah, yeah,
no Way Home. In Multiverse of Madness, were very kind
of banking on cameos and bringing people back, and then
you've had Deadpool and Wolverine and they've kind of hit
that point. I think Star Wars is in a similar
position where you know, the Akoli they tried with that
to do something different Asca is going over to a
(04:32):
whole different universe. But it does feel like they've always
kind of even announcing the Ray movie, it's kind of
like they're panicking and going back to like, well, those
sequel trilogies, you know, they weren't necessarily beloved by a
certain section of the Fine Group, but a lot of
them made either over a billion or close to a billion,
(04:54):
or did Force Awakens make over two billion?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Something like that? That was crazy.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, But even that movie itself kind of played into
the nostalgia bait with it, you know, with the way
that it was almost a retread of a New Hope
with the you know, the chewy We're home and the
lay of stuff and all of that, and they struggled.
They were trying, they were trying to move on, but
they were also struggling with this pull back to it.
And then the Last Jedi really caused that to overreaction
(05:23):
in my opinion, when it comes to the way that
they move forward with the Rise of Skywalker. The backlash, Yes,
Jedi caused that with it. What are some other examples
you've seen in the Disney Plus era when it comes
to Star Wars. You mentioned the Acolyte and things like that.
But then you have shows like andor that that have
have kind of moved into a completely different direction and
not been a cameo fest. What are some good examples
(05:45):
of how they moved forward effectively and some struggles that
they've had in the Disney Plus era, I.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Think and al I think the Mandalorian was kind of
a double edged sword because it showed they could move
forward in a different direction. And then you know, they
were basically trying to make a Boba Fette show, But
it was around the time that it was like, hmmm,
do we necessarily want to, you know, lean on George's
stuff too much? So they made The Mandalorian, which is
(06:11):
kind of very heavily influenced by Boba Fette and kind
of pulls a lot of the cool like canography from him.
But then they brought Boba Fette into season two, and
then they ended with Luke Skywalker. So the Mandalorian season
one it kind of showed me that they don't need
to necessarily bank on these classic nostalgia things. Sure you
have the imagery and like clear nuts to things like
(06:32):
IG eighty eight, but they were very much carving out
their own space in it. Whereas season two was kind
of like the flip side of that, where it was
like get Boba Fett and you know, end episode one
teasing Boba Fette and then like even the spurs in
season one where you could see Boba Fette's feet. I
remember there being lots of different fan theories and I
(06:52):
was very much of the camp it's not Bobaffett because
they're not going back to the well, but even ending
on Luke Skywalker, and then they tried to do the
Bobafette show, and then in that show they had the
Mandalorian coming halfway through in hijacket because he was now
the more popular character. And you kind of hit this
point where you're just circling these characters instead of going
(07:14):
off into a different direction, and it almost becomes the
corporate side of it becomes very very transparent, I feel,
and audiences are very sophisticated towards that they instantly recognize
when something or someone's been pulled in now as a
way to make money, rather than it being like a
we genuinely have a story to tell here, and I
(07:35):
feel a lot of the franchises are kind of getting
stuck into that where it's kind of have the they
know what's going to make money, so they greenlight the project,
rather than having a good idea where that base makes
the project itself.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
You know, as a dad that grew up in the
original trilogy era and has sons that came into Star
Wars during the sequel trilogies and Star Wars Rebels and
all of that, and you know this has become our
thing with it. I should love the nostalgia stuff. I
should be super excited when when Boba fet shows up
or when Luke shows up and that kind of stuff.
But at the same time, there's an element to this
(08:13):
that feels like when they do it, it's hollow. I mean,
you talk about Robert Tanny Junior in the Doom stuff
that happened when they made that announcement at Sandy Oocomic Con.
I mean, I wasn't with my sons when that moment happened,
but we have our group chat and we're like texting
each other on it, and we're all like, this feels
desperate and it's the same type of thing. What's an
example from your in your in your mind of a
(08:37):
good nostalgic moment that enhances a story versus bad ones
that feel like just cheap fan service.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I mean, off the top of my head, I can't
think of anything. Maybe No Way Home, because I think
they were used more than cameos there, and it was
very much Topy and Andrew Garfield acting as mentors for
kind of like when Spider Man's at as lowest point,
(09:06):
his aunt May's dead, He's very much on his own,
and they're kind of like, look, bad stuff's happened to me.
You get back on the horse. Remember, with power comes
with great power comes great responsibility. There are, yeah, there
are those moments where I think, when it's done correctly,
it feels like a passing of the torch and even
the force awakens. Did that really well? I think where
(09:29):
you know it was and then they kind of messed up.
But hand In that is very much kind of a
mentor figure, and he sort of fits the Obi one
persona in that film where he gets killed halfway Thron
has a great impact on Ray and kind of pushes
her forward. So I think when it's used in those
kind of ways where it's very much a sort of
(09:49):
goodbye to the past, it works well. Not when it's
like this is the past and we're going to keep
bringing it back and bringing it back, and bring it
back and tell you're sick of it. I think when
it's done in small doses, in a respectful way, where
it's a handoff, that's when it works.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Well, you're a moment ago you were talking about the
corporate side of it, right, and so there's always there's
the story side of it, and then there's the business
side of it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And Hollywood loves safe bets, and for.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Them, it seems like nostalgia is like you talked about,
They run back to it when things aren't going well
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Is it really a safe bet long term? Are we?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
You know, from your perspective, sacrificing sort of the potential
future fans for the sake of a quick buck for
all of us that just want to go see Luke
Skywalker again, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, I do think that as well. And I think again,
it kind of sets the fan expectation where you are
expecting these things now, and it's almost kind of becomes
the norm for the series. I think Star Wars is
kind of, you know, a snake eating its own tail
at this point. Indiana Jones like a similar thing where
(10:57):
I mean they just announced a Rambo origin story, and
it's like, well, first Blood is the origin story? What
you want about?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I think.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
You run into like the danger of it becoming transparently corporate.
And it's clear that these characters are just being brought
back because they have no other ideas to tell and
rather than taking a break on stuff, which I think
they often should do, they kind of run it into
the ground instead of giving it breathing space. Like these
characters resonate. It's always like, no, we're hitting you with
(11:28):
the next thing. How much money can we get out
of you by constantly bringing these things back? And if
you think about Star Wars did have the perfect business model?
You know you had your original trilogy, took a break,
got fans excited, announced the prequel trilogy, took another break,
never oh it's never coming back. Stars is never coming back,
and then when it comes back you get excited. Whereas
(11:50):
with what Disney have done now, I feel that we're
not going to We're not missing Star Wars, And I
think the anticipation is very important in these kinds of things,
not souring you on it and thinking like like like
what Marvel are doing where it's like, oh, it's another
Disney Plus show or it's another thing I have to watch.
It's kind of like if they'd actually taken a break
after Endgame. As much as I enjoy some of the
(12:13):
projects that followed, I feel like it gives you a
bit of time in between, and like even again with
James Bond, going back to that, you know, I think
James Bond's remained relevant for over sixty five years at
this point because it's not always in your face. You know,
you build up to this big event and then they
take a break. Even I mean, they Amazon own it
(12:35):
now and they could easily be rushing out project after project,
but they're still saying, look, we're just making it a
theatrical event. That might be stuff down the line, but
for the moment, James Bond is remaining this way, and
you kind of get excited for the casting and who's
gonna have their take on it, And you know, Denny
Villanov's attached to it now, Whereas I think if they'd
(12:56):
just done like streaming show, streaming show, streaming show, James
Bond streaming show, you wouldn't be getting that kind of
guy interested in it because they'd be running to the ground.
And I think Disney Plus has just harmed so many
franchises across the board because it's giving us a lot
of slop a lot of the time, and your taste
kind of it gets oversaturated, it really does. It's you know,
(13:18):
these things lose their appeal and the special kind of
want around them. They almost mythic status because it's always there,
you know. He kind of like, I remember going to
see the prequel trilogy with my dad, Whereas if Star
Wars came out of the cinema now, and I don't
know if I'd be like, oh, this is like an
ex bonding experience with me and my kid, It's just
(13:40):
like it's another one and there's a streaming show next week,
and yeah, it's too much.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's exactly the situation that I've lived out with my sons.
I mean, they were twenty fifteen, they would have been
eleven and oh no.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
So like that teen effect age.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Ten and fourteen, right, And so we hadn't we hadn't
had Star Wars, we hadn't had that cinematic experience, and
so going you know, this is even before I mean,
it's hard to believe it's been about ten years or so,
but we didn't have reserved seats at these movies, so
you had to go, and you had to wait in
line for two to three hours, and and that bonding
experience with the fans and the crowd and all of that.
(14:21):
And now it's kind of like and Or comes out,
and we love Star Wars. I mean we've we've been
podcasting about it for eight years now. But you know,
we're sitting there and we're like, Oh, are we gonna
watch it when it comes out tonight or are we
going to wait a couple days and see it?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
You know, I mean it's it's lost, it's luster.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
And I think we see the same thing with like
Fantastic Four, with a great movie, but at the same time,
it's not performed as well in the box office as
anybody expected. Some of that's the way that the cinema
has changed, but others it's just people are like, we'll
get to it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
When we get to it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It'll be on streaming in thirty forty five days anyway
with it.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
What do you think Star Wars can learn?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
You know they're trying to pause, right, It's been a
while since we've had thing other than I mean, we
had to ander obviously, but we haven't had anything in
the cinema since twenty nineteen, and it's going to be
next May before we get it. Is there anything that
you see Star Wars doing that seems to be that
they're trying to learn some lessons from what's going on
with the MCU.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Not really, you know, I think in a perfect world,
they would have ended the sequel trilogy, maybe done a
couple of spin offs and stuff, maybe done like one
big standalone movie like The Rogue Squadron, and then taking
a break and maybe giving it ten years and then
brought Daisy Ridley back, and you know, I mean, suppose
(15:36):
it has been ten years since The Force Awakens, but
give it a break where we kind of missed these characters.
And then it's like the kids who grew up on
the sequel trilogy, they'll be like, oh, we're learning, Like
Daisy Ridley's back is Ray and she's teaching her own students.
And then it's these students that go on to be
the main characters. And then it's kind of a passing
of the torch thing again, whereas now everything's just so
(15:59):
it's always there, so you don't necessarily get a chance
to step back. I do think it breaks needed. I
think Star Wars is obviously, you know, Kathleen Kennedy's such
a maligned figure as part of the franchise. I think
when they change CEO, which will inevitably happen quite soon,
that the new person should kind of say, look, this
is a plan for the next five years and then
(16:21):
stop and then that's it. And that's that's kind of
the era of it. And just even if you're saying, look,
we're not making any more Star Wars movies, just say that,
like work away in the background, maybe come.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
They didn't at the end of the trilogy or both
of the previous trilogies, they acted like it was over.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
So yeah, exactly, Yeah, and do that and make people
miss it, and then when something big comes along, it's great.
And I think there's other mediums you can kind of
keep interest up in, like video games. Star Wars has
always had, you know, video games and comics that have
kept people publicipated for it is huge.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Yeah, again, James, I'll kind of keep banging on about
James Bond. But obviously you've seen the new James One
game that's coming out, which is kind of like a
soft introduction to a new younger James Bond before they
inevitably recast the next one. And the Batman Arkham series,
you know, that kind of took over when the Dark
Knight trilogy ended, and there's other mediums to explore stuff through.
(17:16):
And I mean, like, yeah, the N sixty four is
to play Rogue Squadron all the time. Shadows of the
Empire Stars was still alive for the hardcore fans, but
it wasn't you know, doing the heads in of the
general audience who weren't necessarily that interested. And now kind
of feels like they're constantly chasing that big, massive success
(17:37):
and you don't always have to, you know, limit your budgets,
have that control and just kind of keep things ticking
away in the background, and then when it's a big
cinematic event, amazing people will be back on board. But
I think you need to just kind of tone things back,
understand where the love and allegiances are, and keep those
fans happy. But you don't need to necessarily pile the
(18:00):
market with these these properties all the time, which is
against a corporate idea.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Oh yeah, but yeah, it's about making billions, right, and
and Star Wars should do that in their mind, and
so they're struggling to figure out why it's not. But
then you have we have other franchises. They have like this,
the Jurassic franchise, that is some weird thing. I never expect.
I go to every one of them when they come out.
I never expected to do great at the box office.
This last one did eight hundred plus billion dollars or
(18:28):
a million dollars.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
At the at the box office.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Why do you think that the Jurassic franchise stays successful
in the box office when it's just almost a rinse
and repeat every single movie.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I think kids are unnecessarily you know, kids slip dinosaurs,
and my kids are three years old, and I just, yeah,
totally see how much kids slip dinosaurs and anything that's
going they're going to live. But it's also kids horror
as well. There's kind of kids do like horror, but
it needs to be at a certain level, and I
think the Jurassic films kind of walk that fine line
(19:05):
of being like spectacle horror as well. You know, it's
got those The thing is with that, the dinosaurs can
be lots of different things in those movies. So for example,
you can have like a nice cute dinosaur that's a
little cuddly thing, but then on the flip side of it,
you've got the terrifying ones. And then you've even got
ones like the t rex who are kind of like
anti heroes where it's like one film they're a villain,
(19:26):
but then they show up later on the franchise it's like, yeah,
it's what a hero that bloody t rexes. So I
think it does tick a lot of the boxes and
kind of what an audience want to see from something,
and it's not always there again, you know a Jurassic World,
the Disney.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Flush shows or stuff like that with it.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Yeah, it's one of those franchises where it never really
feels like it's always there. It's just kind of like,
I mean, even this last one's kind of came and gone,
but it's made a lot of money. So I think
they've done a really good job of kind of keeping
it successful and appealing to people without you know, necessarily
(20:06):
kickstarting a culture war amongst fans as well. I think
I think, yeah, I think culture war stuff can kind
of drag this down as well. And I think the
longer that a property goes on in the mainstream. It
kind of gets attached to that stuff because you get
the stars asked like questions, or someone will say something
that gets misquoted in a tweet and then it'll blow
up everywhere. So yeah, they've they've done a good job
(20:29):
of actually handling that ip where it doesn't annoy people.
Still appeals to people. Isn't necessarily good either, but it's
always something that people are like, oh, well, I go
say that at the cinema. It's not offensive to anyone,
you know what I mean, right, it's not ruining your childhood.
You're not like Sam Neil. But maybe maybe that's another
thing because because people are obviously very very attached to
(20:52):
Star Wars, like people make it their identity, you know,
people who call their religion Jedi. No one's that attached
to the Jurassic movies. But even though it's quite a
big thing, like that was the second film I ever
saw the cinema, Jurassic Park, and I went with my dad,
and I remember it like it's a massive part of
my childhood. But I don't think there's anything in those movies,
(21:14):
like the newer ones, that I'm going to be like
it destroyed my childhood, you know what I mean, it's
just like, oh, it was a bad film.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, i'd be you know, Chris pont Or.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
You destroyed my childhood, Chris exactly, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
That's so funny, you.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Know it And a lot of times, I mean, there
have been so many cameos in this in this era
of Star Wars, right, you've got you know, it all
kind of started with with Luke Show.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I mean it actually even before that.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I mean you had Bokaton, you had a Soka and
those types of things, Boba Fett showing up and then
culminating Cad Band showing up. Yeah, what's been like the
one cameo in this modern area of Star Wars that
really worked for you? And what's the most was like egregious,
(22:01):
like screw up that they did when when it comes
to cameos.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Right, egregious. One I can tell you straight away is
Jack Black and Lizzo. That was when I really feel that, Yeah,
Star Wars jumped the shark because Star Wars has never
really been like celebrities and stuff. It's always been like
quite unknown actors playing pretty much all the parts. I mean,
Harrison Ford's obviously a massive name, but that there's never
(22:28):
really you know, he wasn't that when he first.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Started, when we started with this franchise started.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Yet they've never really cast like a big even the
sequel trilogy, you know what I mean, it was like
Daisy Ridley, like, who the hell's that Adam Driver? No
one knew who he was at the time. It's always
been very low key actors, and then to have that,
it was like it takes shower, but you know what
I mean, you like what so? Yeah, yeah, totally. I
mean he was completely overshadowed by those I'll let Christopher
(22:55):
Lloyd off. I forgot about that. Yeah, so I think
that was kind of when it was like the Mandalorian
season three, ain't recovering missing that? Who was my favorite character?
I mean, obviously the Luke Skywalker thing was a massive thing.
I think every it.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Was like a sugar wresh.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's what so many of these are, right, They're just
like they get you really excited for a few minutes
and then you're kind of like later on you're like,
I don't know, did it work?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Yeah? I actually prefer his cameo in Bucker Boba Fett
when he's training grow gu I think the effect totally better. Yeah,
it's kind of like he's presenting a choice to grow
gu But yeah, that was the massive thing. Obviously, Cat
(23:45):
Baine I quite liked, just because he was dead and
to see I didn't. It's always the cameos that are
big to a Star Wars fan that you don't actually
necessarily think are big enough to bring to the live action. So,
for example, cad Be, because you're constantly thinking, like, well,
(24:07):
is anyone watching this going to know who he is
unless they've seen like an animated series from yes ago.
And the fact that they brought him in and he
had like the metal plate on his head and stuff,
and he's kind of Barber Fett's rival. That was really cool.
Graham Off talking as well, I remember in Rogue one
the effects not aged that well, but I remember that
(24:27):
they did so much stuff in Rogue one that was great.
Darth Vader Hallway at the end, I will say, I
don't think Disney have messed up Darth Vader once yet.
I think they've always nailed you know, toss everything else
to the side. One thing you can say, they've never
messed up Darth Vader. They've always got him right, So
(24:48):
you know, end of Rogue one. I mean they it's
episode three. I think, well, they tease him at the
end of episode two when he's in the tank and
his eyes wake up and say oh, And then I
think episode three just like walks into that town and
like forced by the neck and starts dragging them along
(25:09):
the ground, like using the force. So they always have
him really intimidating. Yeah, I think Darth Vader used sparingly
is great, and he's kind of those kind of cameos
are like, obviously, you know, it's an OBI one show,
so you can expect something like that, But like Lea
gets a lot of crap in that, But I thought
she was fine.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
So I'm also partial to to Lea's dad showing up
just in the odd Yeah, I know they recast him
for and Or, but just seeing him put he's floating
around this time, Yeah, floating around.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
And Or has took a completely different approach, like no cameos.
I I've argued that you could have almost set and
Or in any other universe and the story would have
been just as effective with a different, you know, evil
Empire type situation.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah, it's very Blade Runner. I remember watching episode one
of that thing and this is just Blade Runner.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
What is it about? And or that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Kind of breaks that nostalgia cycle and offers something fresh
and compelling for you.
Speaker 4 (26:20):
I think because it's it's growing, it's treating the audience
with respect, and it's growing up with the audience. Now,
kids might find it boring them, they really might find
it like rubbish. But I think for people our age,
you kind of we I mean, they always say Star
Wars is for kids, but evidently not because lots of
adults still watch it. So I think having you know,
(26:41):
a version of it for adults at least where they swear,
you know, they deal with quite weighty things. I remember
the sexual assault thing being quite a big talking point
at the time, and you'd never expect to see that
in Star Wars. It's tackling things that you can definitely
apply to the real world. And it shows how good
Star Wars can be when it is tackling those things
(27:05):
and creatives given leeway to do those things, given a
good budget, and given the freedom to kind of write
and direct and shoot things in a way that appeals
to adults rather than just like flashy cartoons and you know,
Yoda fighting Countuku and spinning around and stuff. So I
think it was good because it added that extra di
(27:25):
I mentioned that felt lacking from some of the other
Disney Plus stuff. I feel like Disney Plus they've kind
of falling into a formula a lot with their shows,
and you see that a lot with the MCU. And
it got to the point when we were doing breakdowns
on it, and I mean I was getting to the
finale and I was thinking, I pretty much know how
this finale is gonna go. And it was only really
(27:47):
low key season one and two that subverted my expectations.
But I think and Or has just been given that respect,
and because he's not necessarily a favorite character. You know,
I don't know how many many people own an and
Or action figure, but because of that, they can kind
of do what they want and they're notn't necessarily held
(28:09):
back by that kind of fan expectation, and fans like
outcry on social media. It's say, oh you didn't, Luke
wouldn't do this, that sort of thing With and Or,
It's like you, basically you can He's a blank slate
where you can do anything, and you can have him
go to like a prison one, you know, set of
episodes to do a heist the next one, or you know,
(28:30):
pretend to be someone. There's lots of range that you
can do with him, where fans aren't necessarily going to
say that's the wrong way to take It's it's similar
to Peacemaker and Superman. So I've just seen the newest
the latest episode of Peacemaker. There's episode one of season two.
Loved it, very good. Superman I didn't like it. I
(28:52):
wasn't too hot on it, and I think that's because
I have my expectations of what Superman is and what
Superman movie should be. Whereas Peacemaker, it's just like there's
loads of crazy stuff happening in that show, and I'm like, yeah, great,
Whereas if Superman was saying those lines are be what
the hell is this?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
You know, it's funny because no one's no one's more
critical of Star Wars the than Star Wars fans with it.
But in the end, we all I think I think
there are those that there's there's the grifters that that
want to make, you know, get clicks and make money
off of not of it failing every time, but most
(29:30):
fans really do want to see us succeed.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What's one bold move that k would just pull Star
Wars out of that nest all just death spiral.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
I'm surprised Ahsoka came back to the main universe because
when they went off to the new one, I'm like, Oh,
they can do anything here. They've got total free even
the little natty who like them little turtle guys with
the little suits on them, like they can do whatever
they want. Yet and I was surprised they brought it back.
And I was kind of hoping like a Zon trilogy
(30:03):
set off in that universe, where you know, you take
elements of like Thrawn and then that sort of thing
and do it over there and then it's not necessarily
impacting the main line. I think kind of what House
of the Drive, I mean, Game of Thrones is like
the perfect example of like, we messed up the ending
of this, people don't like it. How do you bring
it back? You kind of need to remove everything from
(30:27):
that main timeline or when we expect stuff to be set.
So Knights of the Old Republic, I think what James
Mangold's doing is a good idea where he's kind of
setting it like and I know they tried to do
that with the Acolyte, But then they still had things
like Kiadi Munday show up where it was just like fine, yeah,
annoying people. So I would say, just take everything to.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Everybody than that and change and you know, we're freaked
out about the cannon from that piece.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Yeah, and it's not necessary. It doesn't make or break
the show, you know what I mean. But people were
just obsessing over it. So I would say, do Copyhouse
of the Dragon, Do maybe a prequel or thousand years
in the future where none of this stuff matters anymore,
and if they find artifacts because they're in the future,
that kind of ties and that's a nice little least
rag but there's not necessarily the big thing that like, yeah,
(31:19):
a character like Andor And you know what I was
saying before about fans being attached to certain characters, If
you go back to the past, there's no attachment to them,
and you can kind of do what you want and
there's no expectations, and they can mess around with characters
and basically have a certain leeway that you don't necessarily
get in the main line.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Coming up in a couple of years, we're going to
have the Starfighter movie with Ryan Gosling as the primary character,
which I think that's probably the first time we've had
an A list actor headline a Star Wars since probably
Qui gon Jin with low Leanniesen in The Phantom Menace.
(31:58):
With that, what do you feel about about a Star
Wars movie with a with an A list headliner.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
It depends what kind of actor it is. I think
Ryan Gosling is very selective of what he chooses to
jump onto. I don't think Ryan Gosling would ever sign
on to something just for the sake of, you know,
cashing a check or doing it. You might have done
that for this, But when I think of that him
as an actor, I think of well, I mean before
(32:25):
Barbie obviously he was like a billion dollars, but I
think of him as being like a sort of early
days Christian Bale, where it was kind of like he
kind of expect him to not to have, like you know,
it's it's good, It's gonna be good no matter what,
and he'll be great in it. And I think that
with Grian Gosling. I think you need to get respected
actors who yeah have selected projects in the past purely
(32:51):
because of the product, Like right, Robert Pattinson. Sorry, that's
another good example where he signed on to Batman, but
he's not been just doing things for the sake of
doing them, and it's clear that he has, you know,
he wants to be respected in his career. So an
actor like that, I think an A lista like that
can be good. Whereas if he got like The Rock,
I think people would be a bit like Kevin har
(33:12):
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
What's the what's the craziest casting that you would that
you would you know, you could imagine in a Star
Wars He's the craziest person you would bring it.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
I mean Jack.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Jack Black and Star Wars was part of Probably.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Give him a full spin off Disney Plus.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That's right, there's a new Disney Plus show coming out.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Its Law. Even Jude Law was quite that's true. Yeah,
I mean it feels like that show is kind of
came and gone, and even like remembering that Tude Law
was in the Star Wars things quite quite a weird thing.
Colin Firth, Yeah, I'll have a Colin Firth.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It show up as a Jedi master somewhere. Yeah. Of course, what.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Does the future of Star Wars look like if it
continues in this. You know, you called it a death spiral, right,
It's almost impossible out of that. What's the future of
Star Wars look like if they don't if they don't
make some radical changes.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
I think it'll go back to being like in a
very nerdy property where it's like you're seen as a
loser for liking it. Yeah, it's difficult to predict the
future with Star Wars. I think a lot of it
is kind of tied to the management behind that at
the moment, and where it's kind of like people hate Disney,
they hate Disney Star Wars, they hate Kathleen Kennedy, and
(34:38):
I feel like it needs kind of a changing of
the god and a break and for them to basically
I'm gonna mention James twond again, but you know what
I mean. When Amazon took over, everyone's like, oh, no,
what's going on? And then you know, you hear Amy
Pascal's signed up to and they say, oh, what they're
doing here? But then they get Denny Billanove and the
(34:58):
right as attached to it, and you start hearing who
they're actually auditioning for it, and it makes it sound
like they're taking it seriously. So I'd love to see
like a stop gap where it's just like, right, this
is it. Change creatives, we're working on something in the background,
it's going to be out in the next five years.
Then slowly trickle announcements out like a big name director
(35:20):
or say they've got George Lucas back to consult on it.
Just something that kind of shows that they're taking it
seriously and not milking it for content. On a streaming service,
I think that would be the way to do it.
I think in general, just streaming has kind of diluted
so many brands that it's difficult to It's just difficult
to say how much damage that's done, and I feel
like taking a break from it would heal a lot
(35:42):
of the wounds. It's kind of like during COVID when
they were saying like, oh, the ozonly is clearing up
in the oceans, Like, yeah, got less pollution in because
everyone's in the house and not driving cars all the time.
Going to get some crazy comments because of that on
the video, but that's the kind of thing I think
you need where you just take a step back, don't
(36:03):
let anyone know what's going on, and then slowly you
roll out tiny little announcements say they're working on this,
they're working on that. Oh that sounds good. Yeah, you
kind of need new shit. I mean, we've seen so
many franchises pulled back from the brink, and you know,
like I said, I was been working on an alien
versus Predator thing that pretty much killed both franchises, and
(36:23):
then you had Prometheus and Alien Covenant that also destroyed them,
and then they kind of took a break. They even
were doing Pray as a streaming movie, and then people
liked it and it's like, oh, well, Alien Romuliz was
going to be streaming, why don't we put that in
the theater. And it's kind of built up this fan
base again. And now we're getting like two Predator films
(36:44):
the year and they're both really good, and yeah, just
kind of taking things back to square one and giving
people a rest and just being like, look, we're in
a bad spot at the moment, so we're not going
to give you more. We're just gonna take a step back,
get people in who are passionate about it, and make
the best quality thing possible and slowly win people back.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
A couple of months ago, the Ruy Mill had Kathern
Kennedy stepping down the end of this year and Dave
Filoni and carried Back kind of stepping in to this
role with that. What are your thoughts on Antaloney and
backs as they do?
Speaker 4 (37:20):
You quite like Feloney. I think he kind of gets
almost sort of in a James Gun way. He's his
own projects. He's very kind of right, these are what
people are, what I'm going to push either way, And
I think Colony does kind of push a lot of
his characters like Asoka love Her, but there's often the criticism.
It's like he's more interested in doing his own things
(37:42):
in Wolves all the time and stuff. But I do
think Faloney is out of all the contenders out there,
I think Faloney's got the safest hands when it comes
to the handling of this franchise. And I don't think
he would make anything just for the sake of pushing
in product out there. I think for him there would
have to be a level of quality, and he might
(38:04):
not always hit it. He might have some misses, but
I think they would be better Shepherds of net you know,
the corporate side of things, which I feels very present
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Favorite Star Wars Memory with your dad.
Speaker 4 (38:20):
So on Shadows of the Empire, there's the Boba Fat
level where he kill him and then he comes back
and slave one and it takes about an hour to
get to that point playing the game, and I remember
me and my dad we just couldn't get past it.
And I'll always remember waking up in bed in the
middle of the night and my dad was like very
(38:41):
dimly lit room, headphones in plugged into the TV, sitting
trying to play through this level to do it. And
then I watched him and he got killed, and I
think he just got up and left. But it was
nice that bonding. It was nice that bonding that we
had this thing that we kind of played together and
we couldn't get past. We did eventual, but yeah, I
remember there's like so many memories that have attached to
(39:04):
Shadows of the Empire with my dad, where we just
used to play all the time, and yeah, there was
a lot of difficult things in that game, but we
loved it.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
We loved it.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Would you like to see them try to pull in
some of the ideas in the in the characters from
Shadows of the Empire into a into a Star Wars production.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
I'm surprised they haven't brought dash Render across, to be honest,
because he is pretty Instead of doing a solo movie,
do a dash Render movie. You know what I mean.
He's kind of like your hand solo archetype where you're
not annoying people or he's not getting compared to Harrison Ford,
he's kind of his own character. Same with Mandalorian and
Boba Fett, you know what I mean. It's kind of
like sort of the same, but there's enough differences where
(39:46):
it doesn't annoy you. If they mess him up.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Don't get technical with me.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Such a cool conversation, all right, here's the big takeaway
from this conversation with Paul. Not all nostalgia is created equal.
These quick hit it cameos can feel like a sugar rush.
It's fun for a minute, but then it's forgettable the
next What lasts is when the past propels the story forward.
(40:12):
So think of Han in the Force Awakens as a mentor,
or how they've used Vader really sparingly but perfectly. That's
nostalgia that builds something for the future generations to stand
on when it comes to Star Wars. We also talked
about how and Or really broke this cycle. There's no
cameo bingo card, just smart, grown up storytelling that respects
(40:36):
the audience. And so for us dads, that's great watch
with your teens kind of Star Wars shows to watch.
On the flip side, we've got when the Mandalorian sort
of swung back toward cameos and then had these crazy
celebrity drop ins that pulled us out of the galaxy.
What it did was it exposed the corporate menacing in
(40:59):
this this stories, and fans feel that and our kids
do too. And then I absolutely loved Paul's favorite dad memory,
those late nights with his own father stuck on the
Boba Fette slave one leveled in Shadows of the Empire.
That is the heart of it. The movies and the
shows they matter, but the moments that we create around
them matter more. So let's curate what we watch. Let's
(41:24):
make some of it an event. Again, be okay with
waiting to watch it together. Anticipation is a feature, it's
not a bug. This is what being a Star Wars
dad is all about. And then the Bolds move that
Star Wars needs and that we can model with the
way we approach Star Wars it's to really champion these
(41:45):
new eras and these new heroes while keeping the legends
as legends. That's how we share our love of the
past and hand the future to our kids. I really
want you. If you aren't already a fan of heavy spoilers,
you must be sleeping under a rock. But if you aren't,
check them out. Go to YouTube, subscribe to Paul and
heavy spoilers and great content, always honest and still positive.
(42:11):
There's never anything toxic with Paul. I absolutely love that.
And then, of course make sure you're following Tattooing Sons
on all of our social channels channels subscribe to the podcast.
We would love to interact with you there as well.
Thanks so much until next week. May the Course be
with you.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Thank you for listening to Tattooine Suns, a Star Wars podcast.
Please subscribe and follow Tattooine Suns on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
or your favorite podcast app. Tattooine Suns regularly publishes thoughtful
articles intended to provoke conversation about the larger themes and
Star Wars. Go to tattooinesuns dot com to explore further,
(42:50):
and May the Force be with you always.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
This podcast, website, and social media accounts are not endorsed
by the Walt Disney Company or Lucasfilm Limited, and it's
intended for entertainment purposes only.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Star Wars names and sounds, and any other Star Wars
related items and properties are trademarks of Lucasfilm Limited and
its affiliates. All original contents of this podcast and website
is the intellectual property of Tattooing Suns, unless otherwise indicated.
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