November 7, 2025 • 28 mins
When the headlines hit and pressure mounts, true leadership is revealed. In this episode of That Will Nevr Work, host Maurice Chism sits down with Mike Swenson, crisis strategist and founder of CrisisTrak, to unpack how brands can not only survive—but thrive—after facing public challenges.
From the psychology of crisis communication to powerful comeback stories, Mike shares the tools leaders need to stay calm, protect their reputation, and turn chaos into opportunity.
🎧 Connect with Mike:
LinkedIn – Mike Swenson
Instagram – @mikeswenson55
#ThatWillNevrWork #Podcast #Leadership #CrisisManagement #CrisisTrak
Resources:
From the psychology of crisis communication to powerful comeback stories, Mike shares the tools leaders need to stay calm, protect their reputation, and turn chaos into opportunity.
🎧 Connect with Mike:
LinkedIn – Mike Swenson
Instagram – @mikeswenson55
#ThatWillNevrWork #Podcast #Leadership #CrisisManagement #CrisisTrak
Resources:
- Well Why Not Workbook: https://bit.ly/authormauricechism
- Podmatch: https://bit.ly/joinpodmatchwithmaurice
- *FREE* 5 Bold Shifts to help you silence doubt and start moving: https://bit.ly/5boldshifts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I thank you very much for tuning in too that
We'll Never Work podcast. When chaos hits and the headlines
turn against you, some brands crumble while others rise stronger
than ever. My guest today, mister Mike, is the strategist
companies call when their reputation, trust and legacy are on
the line, and his insights will forever change how you
(00:23):
think about crises, leadership, and comeback stories.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We'll talk about it right after this.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Educate, empower, Enable impact. Thank you for tuning in to
That Will Never Work, an award winning podcast where we
share inspiring information and personal experiences related to business and
the entrepreneurial journey from those who are leaders in their
respective field. Now here's your host, author and business coach.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Maurice I thank you very much for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So we have someone who is.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Very strategic, who's very very resilient, and is grounded. Mike
Swinston is a crisis communication strategist and the founder of
Crisis Tech, a company helping organizations navigate high stake situations
with integrity, resilience, and forest sight. So, mister Mike, you
(01:21):
have seen leaders face moments that could end their careers
or define them. What is the first thing a brand
must never forget when christ when they face a crisis
like this.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Well, hopefully, Maurice, and thank you for having me on.
I'm looking forward to this hopefully. What a company's done
is they've prepared ahead of time. They've got a plan
in place, they know who their team's going to be,
they know they know the first few steps are going
to take, they know what they're going to say. And
that all comes with planning ahead of time to prepare. Now,
if they haven't done that, then they're behind the eight ball.
(01:56):
So my objective is always to has always been to
Min's companies. You know, we've got a simple five step
process we can put in place for you so that
when a crisis hits, you've got the foundation to manage
it from the beginning and not get caught unawares, so
to speak. That's the that's the most important step. And
(02:17):
what I've found over the years, though, Maurice, sadly, is
that crisis planning kind of gets put on the back burner.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
People.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
You know, I kind of liken it to insurance policies
some you know, we buy a house or a car,
we have to have insurance. But other stuff is up
to us whether we ensure or not. And so I
think sometimes crisis gets put on the back burner. Hey,
things are going well, companies running fine, we're doing well,
we've got great people and you know, got a good
respect in the marketplace. We're fine, you know, and then
(02:48):
a crisis hits and they're not fine because they haven't
prepared for.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So at what point in time talking about planning for?
At what stage in their business planning, whether or not
they're you know, first starting out, you know, maybe they're
in their first five years, At what point should they
start planning for these moments Because a lot of times
we're just too excited to get started. So so so
when do we need to start thinking about handling these crises.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Well, I love the fact that you brought up somebody
who's just getting ready to start a business. So you've
got a great entrepreneur out there. It's got a wonderful
idea and they're starting to bring it to life, and
they need money, they need investors to bring it to life.
I have to believe that if you know, you and I,
let's say, had a great idea, we're you know, co
(03:35):
conspirators in a company. And we walk into an investors
meeting where we've got five or six people in the
room trying we're trying to convince to you know, hey,
give us some money and bring us the idea to life.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I got to believe they'd be very impressed.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
We walked in there and had as part of our
business plan, the original business plan, that and when a
crisis hits, here's how we're going to handle it. Here's
we're going to point a team, we're going to have
messages ready, we're going to understand all the things that
go wrong, and we're going to know what our first
few steps are. I got to believe investors would be
pretty impressed with that and go, yeah, okay, I'll write
I may write you a bigger check. So from my standpoint, Maurice,
(04:13):
it's like from the very beginning now, if your company
is up and running, and you know, chances are, if
you've been in business for a couple of years, you
probably had a crisis already, and you may have handled
it fine and everything went okay. But I would say
now is the time to stop and say, you know, before,
as we grow and get bigger, let's make sure we're
ready to handle a crisis and we can put this
(04:35):
five step process in place that we call crisis track
that allows a company to be ready.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And so there are some things that you know, as
I told you in the green room that I've listened
to some other episodes that you were on, right, and
for those of you do your research, great information, especially
if for those of you who have not touched crises
as much as you might envision that might be coming
(05:03):
down the pike right, you know. But there was a
question that I thought was very interesting because and I
listened to one of the interviews with Ben Albert and he.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Been on my show, you know, so I know I
know him very well, and.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So he asked a question of could I just utilize
AI to help me in these type of moments? And
I think your your answer was very interesting because even
though people can use it, but I think there's an
element that that you you spoke about, So can you
please talk about that element?
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Well?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
I think you know, AI can be useful even in
times of crisis. That could be helpful in maybe creating
some messages for you to get out to your key
audience as that type of thing.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
But you can't replace.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
The human touch with AI and so, so what I'm
talking about is your biggest customers. You know, everybody's got
the eighty twenty rule. You know, we got eighty percent
of our revenues with twenty percent of our customers. So
we're paying a lot of attention to them. You can't
you can't AI them. You got to get on the
(06:16):
phone with them, you got to go meet with them.
You got to make sure you're sit down and say, hey,
everything's fine. Yes, we're having some problems, here's what we're doing,
here's how we're handling it, and we're starting to see
some results. So you've got to have that that personal
touch during a crisis otherwise, otherwise you know it's gonna
you know, you're gonna be distanced and people will not
(06:38):
be able to you know, get that, you know, feeling that, Hey,
these guys are on top of it now. They're just
they're letting a robot tell them what to do right
and how to handle it, and haven't heard from them.
I wish, I wish they'd call.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And so so let me let me touch on that
for a second. Because you stayed at the personal aspect, right,
So how do I stay personal? Actually, if you know
on an everyday basis. My daughter, I text her every day.
I don't even talk to her. I don't even you know,
call her. So if I don't do that on my regular,
(07:11):
on a regular basis of having that personal touch with
someone that I love, how do I keep that personal
touch for those that I'm just doing business with quote
unquote or my my community broth internally and externally. If
I if that's just my everyday way of life of
text messages and emails.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, yeah, no, and and and you know, and and
with COVID, we all got used to doing.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
This what you and I are doing right here, right
to have.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Our meetings and and that at least provides us with
you know, a bit of a personal touch. During COVID,
it was the one way we could all stay in
touch with each other that still felt like, you know,
we're uh, it's not just a text message. I get
a look in the eye and tell you, Hey, everything's okay.
I'm doing fine. I hope you're doing fine.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So, I think, you know, we've lost some of that
in business because of all the technology has been On
the downsides of technology is we've kind of gotten away
from getting on the plane or getting on in the
car and driving over and saying, hey, let me bring
you a cup of coffee. I'd love to talk to you,
and you know, give me thirty minutes in your office.
(08:18):
I want to sit down with you. And so, if
your business has been operating distantly as opposed to more
in person yeah, when a crisis hits, you're going to
You're gonna feel it even more because all of a sudden,
you have not created that relationship. You don't you've created
you have a transactional relationship with your customers, but you
don't have that personal relationship which allows you to say, hey,
(08:41):
we know we have a problem.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
Here's what we're doing to handle it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
We know it's impacting you in this way, and we're
trying to mitigate that as much as possible. Know that
we're on top of it. Know that we're going to
get through it. And when you do get through it,
and your customers see you, you know, taking action, being personable,
staying in touch with them, letting them know what's happening,
and then when it's over with, they're going to look
(09:07):
on and say, wow, that was great, you know, and
I'm and you just built you strengthened that bond that
you have. That's what a crisis can do if a company,
if I keep saying company, but it's any organization, not
for profits. We worked with not for profits over the
years a long. It could be an educational it's any organization.
(09:28):
But if you get through a crisis successfully, you strengthened
that bond, You strengthen your you know, your respectability, the trust.
Most importantly, you've not only kept their trust, you've probably
they probably trust you even more now because they've seen
you go through a tough time and come out on
(09:49):
the other side glowingly.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So because of like you said, moments like this, you know,
just meeting online, text messages, email, sometimes we we have
this wall just just naturally, right, you know, we have
this wall, and so a lot of times we don't
want to be transparent in certain places, situations, or whatever
(10:12):
it might be.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
So how important is.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
For an organization to be transparent in a in a
crisis situation. You know, you're looking online and where people
are looking for apologies and things like that, but you
could tell.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
AI might have written a letter, you know, whatever it
might be.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
You know, so how important is transparency in a crisis
moment because you talked about trust.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Great question. It is important. I mean there's no there's
no ifent or. But you have to be transparent and open.
Now here's the caveat. You shouldn't reveal any information that
you don't know to be one hundred percent correct. So
in other words, you may get questions about, well, what
(10:57):
about this, what about this? And you know, so you know,
one of the things you do in a crisis you
stay in touch with the media, traditional media as well
as online media on a regular basis. But that doesn't
mean that you can reveal everything at time because you
may have we may be working on a solution for
(11:19):
this crisis that's just not quite there yet, so we
don't want to talk about I don't want you talking
about that. So that's not and that's not being it's
not hiding stuff. That's being transparent to a point where
you say, you know, we're working on some things in
this arena. We can't talk about it yet because we're
still trying to figure out the last pieces. But once,
(11:39):
once we have this figured out, we'll get back to
you and let you know how this solution is working.
So you've got to be transparent, but you also have
to make sure that you you don't want to get
out on a limb that gets cut off behind you.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And I think that's very interesting point because a lot
of times when people don't feel like these organizations are
not being transparent, they're not taking accountability, and a lot
of times you are, like you stated, just some information.
I can't divulge right at that very moment because I
have a responsibility not to just myself but and maybe
(12:15):
my investors or whoever it is. But I also have
a responsibility to my employees as well. And so even
in that, how do we understand the technical word of
accountability in that moment because we might think that these
organizations are not taking accountability.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Yeah, you just mentioned maybe the most important audience not
maybe the most important audience in a crisis is the
people who you're working with, you know, because they're also looking.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
On to seeing how things are handled.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Now, agaven if this is an organization that had a
crisis plan in place, so that when something happened, as
an employee of that company, I'm going to know that
exists because I was told and when bad things happen,
here's what we do. We have this team of people
that become the crisis team, and they manage it. We
take these steps initially, we have messages ready to go
(13:07):
ahead of time and so on and so on, and
then we just rinse and repeat until the crisis is over.
But I, as an employee, I'm looking on going wait
a minute, this We nobody ever talked to us about
a crisis plan. We're in the middle of something. I
got my I'm going home and not my neighbors are saying,
what what what's going on?
Speaker 5 (13:26):
You know, what are you doing? What's going on at
your place?
Speaker 4 (13:29):
And as an as an employer, I want to make
sure that employee goes home and is able to say
when the neighbor says, what's going on in your place? Said,
let me tell you what's going on. Yes, we have
a problem. We've been dealing with it. We're doing these
things you may have heard or may not have heard,
but here's what we're doing right now to to mitigate
the impact. And I'm proud to say that I'm working
(13:52):
for a company that knows how to deal with the crisis.
That's a different message than throwing up your hands in
the air to the neighbor and say I don't know, right,
and you know, so so your employees. It's so critical
that the people you work with have the trust in
you and the confidence and know that we are going
(14:14):
to be an accountable organization.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
To your point, so, how important is leadership because in
that moment, emotions are high, you know, and they're all
over the place, whether it is internal or externals, and
you're trying as a leader, you have to even keep
your own emotions kind of intact, you know, or or
leveled out to some degree. That doesn't mean to be emotionless,
(14:39):
but to kind of keep it relatively controlled because we're
all human, right, So how important is that version or
that part of leadership of just controlling or managing the
emotions as a whole, because sometimes it can get unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Yeah, well, well, you know, and it it's you know,
we always say it.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
You know, it starts at the top, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So whoever's the leader of the organization has got to
set that tone and set that tone of And again,
if you've got a plan in place, you're going to
be confident because we.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Know what we're going to be doing. We're staying ahead
of the game.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
And and so I can be confident. Now, if I'm
a head of an organization that has not planned in
some crisis hits, and we haven't we don't know who
the team's going to be, we don't know what we're
going to say, we don't know the first step we're
going to take, it's hard to exude confidence. And so
let's say you're in that position, then you've got to
be able to say, Okay, here's.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
What we need to do.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
I need you, I need you four people to come
out of your day jobs and be the crisis team,
and you put the steps in place as you're going.
I'm just saying, why are you waiting until it happens
to put those steps in place? But that allows that
leader be confident and to exude calm in the midst
of chaos, and and people looking on if they see
(16:02):
that they're the head of the organization, is is acting,
not just talking, but is acting and actively involved and
and managing, not managing the team itself, but helping to
finalize decisions on how uh what steps we're going to
take to solve the crisis.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
They look on and and that's going to give them
again confidence to when they go home at night to say, yeah,
everything's fine, We're gonna be fine, and uh, as opposed
to going home at night and saying, I don't know
what this guy, this guy heading up our company, you know,
he or she doesn't know what they're doing right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And and I think that's a good point because a
lot I only could speak about my own experiences of
being in moments where it felt the thing was going
to fall apart or whatever it is, and the leader
did not understand how to keep their emotions and control
because you know, the team, we as a team, we're
following you, you know, with your energy. And so if
(17:01):
you're you lacking confidence, you have all this self doubt,
it's okay to have it, but.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Do you really want to show it like that?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
You know, you got to suck it up, you know,
and and take you know, literally take one for the team.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
You got to be you know, that's part of leadership.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
I mean, and I think you know, over time, as
we've seen different crises evolve out in the public space
and the media and everything, we've seen leaders who haven't
done it right and they did not turn out well
for them. And uh, and then we've over the years
there have been some incredible examples of crises so well managed.
(17:41):
One that's that's you know, almost ancient history now, but
it's one of the more famous ones is the Thailand
All case from the nineties when there was tampering going
on and people were uh getting or dying from Thailand
All and Thailand All made, you know, the incredible business
decision of pulling all the product off the shelf across
the country and I don't know, you know, I remember
(18:05):
seeing stories about it, and there's just a little you
walk into store and where the tail and all used
to be, it's empty, you know, And that's a tough
business decision to make. But by doing so, they were
able to, okay, give themselves time to find out what
was happening. They were able to identify how the tampering
had taken place, and you know, got those people and arrested.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
And everything, and then they.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Could go, everything's fine and put the product back on
the shelf, and they came out stronger. So that's that's
a fantas one. And then there's there's another one that's
probably not so famous, but it's an organization. This is
also you know, late to early two thousands, late nineties
there's a food food company that made raw product, had
(18:52):
a raw product that went out to hundreds and hundreds
of brands. It was peanuts, and it's a national peanut operation. Anyway,
they had very sketchy oversight in terms of how their
products were, the food safety of their plants and everything,
and all of a sudden they were there was some
(19:15):
recalls happening some of their product. We had three clients
at the time in the PR firm that I that
I ran, that were impacted by this. Again, it's not
our client's fault, but it's their brand up there. So
now we've got to help them through this crisis. They've
got to go out and find a new vendor. All
that company was out of business six months later. Wow,
(19:36):
and they've been in business for a long time. So
there's a you know, the Thailand all example, let's pull
the product off the shelf till we know what's going on.
The peanut company example was, you know, we don't care
how we take care of a product, you know, just
you know, cut corners, get it out there, and all
of a sudden they were impacting hundreds of brands, all
who all had to come up with their own crisis
(19:58):
plans something that wasn't their fault. But again the point is,
but it's their brand name, right, you know, nobody knows
who this other who the vendor is, right? Uh that
I got sick because I eat your product?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And so as I'm listening to you in the in
those moments, you have to understand what your backup plans
are because I'm listening like, hey, you know, who is
the next vendor you know for us to get these
products from, you know, because everyone will not have the
extensive products that something like Towel now would have because
(20:37):
they could pull one product and still make a little
bit of money off of something else possibly, but you know,
they have some a little more diversity. Some of these
other organizations don't have that type of diverse portfolio, you know.
And so understanding what there for this one particular person
or brand, what is the idea or how do we
(20:59):
go about understanding like, hey, you know what if this
product goes under, we have this other vendor that's you know,
kind of waiting in the wings maybe you know, but
I understand that there's some vendor loyalty and you know,
other things that goes on, you know, So how do
we navigate in the situation like that because we might
have this long term contract, deal, handshake, whatever it might
(21:22):
have been, especially if that's part of our crises thing
like they may not want us to do business with
somebody else, especially their competitor.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So how do we deal with something like that?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, well, that's that's that's a great business question you're asking,
And I guess the only way around it is to again,
and you alluded to it, is you You've probably always
got a backup in mind because you're getting you know,
we're all getting called on by vendors all the time,
so we know who's out there. So at least we
know who the list is of people who can Now
(21:56):
we need a we need a new peanut supplier, so
let's go to you know actme' has been calling us
a lot. Let's go to actme Peanuts and interview them
and check. Because again, when you're pulling product off the
shelf like that, you know, like one of our one
of our clients was an ice cream company who had
you know, didn't have nuts in every product obviously, but
(22:17):
they had some, so they had to like kind of
pull those they had to pull those products off the shelf,
and and and.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
And then uh, you know, hopefully you got a backup
right right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, I think that's something that you know, a lot
of us, especially those that are new to business, and
we're like, hey, you know what, because I have a
few clients and people that I know that started a
clothing line. Well, they're only getting their clothes from one vendor,
you know, or their product they apparel for one vendor.
And so what happens at that vendor getting hit with
(22:50):
the terrorists right now or whatever it is, So now
all of a sudden, they don't want to send the
stuff here, or your cost is way too.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Much, you know, so what is that alternative?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
And sometime times we don't look at those things down
the line because we're not dealing with it today.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
But what happens six months you know from now?
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Yeah, it's you know, we're in we're heading in a
time right now. And you brought up the terraffs and
everything where you know, businesses are just up in arms
trying to figure out what they're going to do, and
and so everybody's having to rethink how they go about
their business, right and and and and it's it's you
(23:32):
hope that it has some positive impact at some point,
because like we get creative and we create new ways
in which we can get around some of these issues
that are plaguing us. And that's what we call real
crisis management. So it's not just about managing the crisis
at the time. It's also about being able to have
plans in place that allow us to prevent crises from happening,
(23:57):
to keep something bad rammed. So in other words, to
to the what we've been talking about having backup, having
backup vendors, knowing that something may happen to our primary vendor,
but we got to have a secondary vendor to make
sure that that well, that's that's that's real crisis management.
Because now if that first vendor, you know, Welch, is
(24:17):
on the deal or we can't get the product from anymore,
then all of a sudden, we don't that doesn't matter
because we got a backup plan.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
So we're not going to have a crisis. We're not
going to have a crisis because we're ready to go.
That's real crisis management. And that's what we tried to
preach through our clients all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Nice, nice, Nice, you know, I really appreciate you coming on.
I think you've shared a lot of information and I
think there's some things that people need to understand, you know,
with your process a crisis, a prevention.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You know how you deal with all those types of things.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So can you please let everyone know where they can
find you your information and learn from one of the
best in the business.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Well, thank you. Two places.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
My LinkedIn profile is all crisis all the time, except
for a host of a podcast, so I put some
stuff up about that has nothing to do with the crisis.
But there's a lot of content on there. So people
can go on my LinkedIn profile Mike Swinson one and
learn just stuff. And then crisis track dot com t
RK crisis track dot com is where they can go
(25:17):
on and for just under one thousand bucks can buy
nine videos where I spell out in very great detail
how you can put your own crisis plan together. So
it's LinkedIn and crisistrack dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Now, of course, everyone you know that information will be
in the show notes. So if you're riding somewhere, walking somewhere,
you're experiencing your crisis at this very moment, you can
always come back to this click on the link it'll
be right there so you.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Can learn how to deal with this.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
But you know, before I let you go, you know
there's some I asked this question to everybody comes on
the show, my world famous question. Would you rather the
question now thing outside the box? There's no right or
wrong answer, but would you rather choose three doors or
a fork in the road.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
I think the fork in the road because I've had
a couple of those where it was either or decision,
and uh, fortunately I made the right decision impacted my
career in a positive way nice and and one was
I took the right path, and one was I chose
not to take the other path. So I think the
(26:29):
fork in the road is to me, uh, just kind
of that, you know, from a life standpoint, it's like,
you know, we have that we make little we have
little forks in the road every day. You know, we
don't think them about that, but it's like we're making
little decisions every day that are impacting our lives or
impacting others' lives. And uh, they may be small decisions,
(26:49):
but it's like I do this or do I do this?
So I think the fork in the road is pretty
much for me a metaphor of living life.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, I think we all experienced one of those at
some point in time. And to me, it doesn't matter
which way you go, whether it's the doors or the
forking road. They're all decisions. But in those decisions, it
depends on how you deal with those decisions and how
you view them. To me, everything is a life is
a life lesson, So I don't think there's anything wrong.
(27:18):
Some way might be a little longer than the other, right,
that's right, you know. But but you know, I appreciate
you coming on today, I really do.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
I appreciate you having me on it.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
It was a great conversation, and you know, hopefully somebody
out there gets out and says, maybe I better start
planning today. Most definitely if one person does it, then
this was a huge success.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah and so and so.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
In that, I just want everyone that's listening please identify
one area in your business or your life where you
might have avoided a potential or addressing a potential storm.
So if you can identify it and then take one
proactive step towards preparing for it, you know, and there's
something that the thing about it as well, reflect on
your last setback and ask yourself why did this happen,
(28:05):
and now find out a way to find a teachable
moment and a place to put you in a better
place of leadership. So I thank y'all very much for
listening today, and Mike I think it very much for
coming on the show, and of course everyone His information
will be in the show notes and I'll talk to
you just a.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Little bit later.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Thanks for listening. Follow Maurice Chisholm on social media to
stay connected and check back weekly for new episodes until
next time. That will never work, or will it
I thank you very much for tuning in too that
We'll Never Work podcast. When chaos hits and the headlines
turn against you, some brands crumble while others rise stronger
than ever. My guest today, mister Mike, is the strategist
companies call when their reputation, trust and legacy are on
the line, and his insights will forever change how you
(00:23):
think about crises, leadership, and comeback stories.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We'll talk about it right after this.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Educate, empower, Enable impact. Thank you for tuning in to
That Will Never Work, an award winning podcast where we
share inspiring information and personal experiences related to business and
the entrepreneurial journey from those who are leaders in their
respective field. Now here's your host, author and business coach.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Maurice I thank you very much for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So we have someone who is.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Very strategic, who's very very resilient, and is grounded. Mike
Swinston is a crisis communication strategist and the founder of
Crisis Tech, a company helping organizations navigate high stake situations
with integrity, resilience, and forest sight. So, mister Mike, you
(01:21):
have seen leaders face moments that could end their careers
or define them. What is the first thing a brand
must never forget when christ when they face a crisis
like this.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Well, hopefully, Maurice, and thank you for having me on.
I'm looking forward to this hopefully. What a company's done
is they've prepared ahead of time. They've got a plan
in place, they know who their team's going to be,
they know they know the first few steps are going
to take, they know what they're going to say. And
that all comes with planning ahead of time to prepare. Now,
if they haven't done that, then they're behind the eight ball.
(01:56):
So my objective is always to has always been to
Min's companies. You know, we've got a simple five step
process we can put in place for you so that
when a crisis hits, you've got the foundation to manage
it from the beginning and not get caught unawares, so
to speak. That's the that's the most important step. And
(02:17):
what I've found over the years, though, Maurice, sadly, is
that crisis planning kind of gets put on the back burner.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
People.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
You know, I kind of liken it to insurance policies
some you know, we buy a house or a car,
we have to have insurance. But other stuff is up
to us whether we ensure or not. And so I
think sometimes crisis gets put on the back burner. Hey,
things are going well, companies running fine, we're doing well,
we've got great people and you know, got a good
respect in the marketplace. We're fine, you know, and then
(02:48):
a crisis hits and they're not fine because they haven't
prepared for.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So at what point in time talking about planning for?
At what stage in their business planning, whether or not
they're you know, first starting out, you know, maybe they're
in their first five years, At what point should they
start planning for these moments Because a lot of times
we're just too excited to get started. So so so
when do we need to start thinking about handling these crises.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Well, I love the fact that you brought up somebody
who's just getting ready to start a business. So you've
got a great entrepreneur out there. It's got a wonderful
idea and they're starting to bring it to life, and
they need money, they need investors to bring it to life.
I have to believe that if you know, you and I,
let's say, had a great idea, we're you know, co
(03:35):
conspirators in a company. And we walk into an investors
meeting where we've got five or six people in the
room trying we're trying to convince to you know, hey,
give us some money and bring us the idea to life.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I got to believe they'd be very impressed.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
We walked in there and had as part of our
business plan, the original business plan, that and when a
crisis hits, here's how we're going to handle it. Here's
we're going to point a team, we're going to have
messages ready, we're going to understand all the things that
go wrong, and we're going to know what our first
few steps are. I got to believe investors would be
pretty impressed with that and go, yeah, okay, I'll write
I may write you a bigger check. So from my standpoint, Maurice,
(04:13):
it's like from the very beginning now, if your company
is up and running, and you know, chances are, if
you've been in business for a couple of years, you
probably had a crisis already, and you may have handled
it fine and everything went okay. But I would say
now is the time to stop and say, you know, before,
as we grow and get bigger, let's make sure we're
ready to handle a crisis and we can put this
(04:35):
five step process in place that we call crisis track
that allows a company to be ready.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And so there are some things that you know, as
I told you in the green room that I've listened
to some other episodes that you were on, right, and
for those of you do your research, great information, especially
if for those of you who have not touched crises
as much as you might envision that might be coming
(05:03):
down the pike right, you know. But there was a
question that I thought was very interesting because and I
listened to one of the interviews with Ben Albert and he.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Been on my show, you know, so I know I
know him very well, and.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So he asked a question of could I just utilize
AI to help me in these type of moments? And
I think your your answer was very interesting because even
though people can use it, but I think there's an
element that that you you spoke about, So can you
please talk about that element?
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Well?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
I think you know, AI can be useful even in
times of crisis. That could be helpful in maybe creating
some messages for you to get out to your key
audience as that type of thing.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
But you can't replace.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
The human touch with AI and so, so what I'm
talking about is your biggest customers. You know, everybody's got
the eighty twenty rule. You know, we got eighty percent
of our revenues with twenty percent of our customers. So
we're paying a lot of attention to them. You can't
you can't AI them. You got to get on the
(06:16):
phone with them, you got to go meet with them.
You got to make sure you're sit down and say, hey,
everything's fine. Yes, we're having some problems, here's what we're doing,
here's how we're handling it, and we're starting to see
some results. So you've got to have that that personal
touch during a crisis otherwise, otherwise you know it's gonna
you know, you're gonna be distanced and people will not
(06:38):
be able to you know, get that, you know, feeling that, Hey,
these guys are on top of it now. They're just
they're letting a robot tell them what to do right
and how to handle it, and haven't heard from them.
I wish, I wish they'd call.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And so so let me let me touch on that
for a second. Because you stayed at the personal aspect, right,
So how do I stay personal? Actually, if you know
on an everyday basis. My daughter, I text her every day.
I don't even talk to her. I don't even you know,
call her. So if I don't do that on my regular,
(07:11):
on a regular basis of having that personal touch with
someone that I love, how do I keep that personal
touch for those that I'm just doing business with quote
unquote or my my community broth internally and externally. If
I if that's just my everyday way of life of
text messages and emails.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, yeah, no, and and and you know, and and
with COVID, we all got used to doing.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
This what you and I are doing right here, right
to have.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Our meetings and and that at least provides us with
you know, a bit of a personal touch. During COVID,
it was the one way we could all stay in
touch with each other that still felt like, you know,
we're uh, it's not just a text message. I get
a look in the eye and tell you, Hey, everything's okay.
I'm doing fine. I hope you're doing fine.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So, I think, you know, we've lost some of that
in business because of all the technology has been On
the downsides of technology is we've kind of gotten away
from getting on the plane or getting on in the
car and driving over and saying, hey, let me bring
you a cup of coffee. I'd love to talk to you,
and you know, give me thirty minutes in your office.
(08:18):
I want to sit down with you. And so, if
your business has been operating distantly as opposed to more
in person yeah, when a crisis hits, you're going to
You're gonna feel it even more because all of a sudden,
you have not created that relationship. You don't you've created
you have a transactional relationship with your customers, but you
don't have that personal relationship which allows you to say, hey,
(08:41):
we know we have a problem.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
Here's what we're doing to handle it.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
We know it's impacting you in this way, and we're
trying to mitigate that as much as possible. Know that
we're on top of it. Know that we're going to
get through it. And when you do get through it,
and your customers see you, you know, taking action, being personable,
staying in touch with them, letting them know what's happening,
and then when it's over with, they're going to look
(09:07):
on and say, wow, that was great, you know, and
I'm and you just built you strengthened that bond that
you have. That's what a crisis can do if a company,
if I keep saying company, but it's any organization, not
for profits. We worked with not for profits over the
years a long. It could be an educational it's any organization.
(09:28):
But if you get through a crisis successfully, you strengthened
that bond, You strengthen your you know, your respectability, the trust.
Most importantly, you've not only kept their trust, you've probably
they probably trust you even more now because they've seen
you go through a tough time and come out on
(09:49):
the other side glowingly.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So because of like you said, moments like this, you know,
just meeting online, text messages, email, sometimes we we have
this wall just just naturally, right, you know, we have
this wall, and so a lot of times we don't
want to be transparent in certain places, situations, or whatever
(10:12):
it might be.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
So how important is.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
For an organization to be transparent in a in a
crisis situation. You know, you're looking online and where people
are looking for apologies and things like that, but you
could tell.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
AI might have written a letter, you know, whatever it
might be.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
You know, so how important is transparency in a crisis
moment because you talked about trust.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
Great question. It is important. I mean there's no there's
no ifent or. But you have to be transparent and open.
Now here's the caveat. You shouldn't reveal any information that
you don't know to be one hundred percent correct. So
in other words, you may get questions about, well, what
(10:57):
about this, what about this? And you know, so you know,
one of the things you do in a crisis you
stay in touch with the media, traditional media as well
as online media on a regular basis. But that doesn't
mean that you can reveal everything at time because you
may have we may be working on a solution for
(11:19):
this crisis that's just not quite there yet, so we
don't want to talk about I don't want you talking
about that. So that's not and that's not being it's
not hiding stuff. That's being transparent to a point where
you say, you know, we're working on some things in
this arena. We can't talk about it yet because we're
still trying to figure out the last pieces. But once,
(11:39):
once we have this figured out, we'll get back to
you and let you know how this solution is working.
So you've got to be transparent, but you also have
to make sure that you you don't want to get
out on a limb that gets cut off behind you.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And I think that's very interesting point because a lot
of times when people don't feel like these organizations are
not being transparent, they're not taking accountability, and a lot
of times you are, like you stated, just some information.
I can't divulge right at that very moment because I
have a responsibility not to just myself but and maybe
(12:15):
my investors or whoever it is. But I also have
a responsibility to my employees as well. And so even
in that, how do we understand the technical word of
accountability in that moment because we might think that these
organizations are not taking accountability.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Yeah, you just mentioned maybe the most important audience not
maybe the most important audience in a crisis is the
people who you're working with, you know, because they're also looking.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
On to seeing how things are handled.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Now, agaven if this is an organization that had a
crisis plan in place, so that when something happened, as
an employee of that company, I'm going to know that
exists because I was told and when bad things happen,
here's what we do. We have this team of people
that become the crisis team, and they manage it. We
take these steps initially, we have messages ready to go
(13:07):
ahead of time and so on and so on, and
then we just rinse and repeat until the crisis is over.
But I, as an employee, I'm looking on going wait
a minute, this We nobody ever talked to us about
a crisis plan. We're in the middle of something. I
got my I'm going home and not my neighbors are saying,
what what what's going on?
Speaker 5 (13:26):
You know, what are you doing? What's going on at
your place?
Speaker 4 (13:29):
And as an as an employer, I want to make
sure that employee goes home and is able to say
when the neighbor says, what's going on in your place? Said,
let me tell you what's going on. Yes, we have
a problem. We've been dealing with it. We're doing these
things you may have heard or may not have heard,
but here's what we're doing right now to to mitigate
the impact. And I'm proud to say that I'm working
(13:52):
for a company that knows how to deal with the crisis.
That's a different message than throwing up your hands in
the air to the neighbor and say I don't know, right,
and you know, so so your employees. It's so critical
that the people you work with have the trust in
you and the confidence and know that we are going
(14:14):
to be an accountable organization.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
To your point, so, how important is leadership because in
that moment, emotions are high, you know, and they're all
over the place, whether it is internal or externals, and
you're trying as a leader, you have to even keep
your own emotions kind of intact, you know, or or
leveled out to some degree. That doesn't mean to be emotionless,
(14:39):
but to kind of keep it relatively controlled because we're
all human, right, So how important is that version or
that part of leadership of just controlling or managing the
emotions as a whole, because sometimes it can get unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Yeah, well, well, you know, and it it's you know,
we always say it.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
You know, it starts at the top, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So whoever's the leader of the organization has got to
set that tone and set that tone of And again,
if you've got a plan in place, you're going to
be confident because we.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Know what we're going to be doing. We're staying ahead
of the game.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
And and so I can be confident. Now, if I'm
a head of an organization that has not planned in
some crisis hits, and we haven't we don't know who
the team's going to be, we don't know what we're
going to say, we don't know the first step we're
going to take, it's hard to exude confidence. And so
let's say you're in that position, then you've got to
be able to say, Okay, here's.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
What we need to do.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
I need you, I need you four people to come
out of your day jobs and be the crisis team,
and you put the steps in place as you're going.
I'm just saying, why are you waiting until it happens
to put those steps in place? But that allows that
leader be confident and to exude calm in the midst
of chaos, and and people looking on if they see
(16:02):
that they're the head of the organization, is is acting,
not just talking, but is acting and actively involved and
and managing, not managing the team itself, but helping to
finalize decisions on how uh what steps we're going to
take to solve the crisis.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
They look on and and that's going to give them
again confidence to when they go home at night to say, yeah,
everything's fine, We're gonna be fine, and uh, as opposed
to going home at night and saying, I don't know
what this guy, this guy heading up our company, you know,
he or she doesn't know what they're doing right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And and I think that's a good point because a
lot I only could speak about my own experiences of
being in moments where it felt the thing was going
to fall apart or whatever it is, and the leader
did not understand how to keep their emotions and control
because you know, the team, we as a team, we're
following you, you know, with your energy. And so if
(17:01):
you're you lacking confidence, you have all this self doubt,
it's okay to have it, but.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Do you really want to show it like that?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
You know, you got to suck it up, you know,
and and take you know, literally take one for the team.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
You got to be you know, that's part of leadership.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
I mean, and I think you know, over time, as
we've seen different crises evolve out in the public space
and the media and everything, we've seen leaders who haven't
done it right and they did not turn out well
for them. And uh, and then we've over the years
there have been some incredible examples of crises so well managed.
(17:41):
One that's that's you know, almost ancient history now, but
it's one of the more famous ones is the Thailand
All case from the nineties when there was tampering going
on and people were uh getting or dying from Thailand
All and Thailand All made, you know, the incredible business
decision of pulling all the product off the shelf across
the country and I don't know, you know, I remember
(18:05):
seeing stories about it, and there's just a little you
walk into store and where the tail and all used
to be, it's empty, you know, And that's a tough
business decision to make. But by doing so, they were
able to, okay, give themselves time to find out what
was happening. They were able to identify how the tampering
had taken place, and you know, got those people and arrested.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
And everything, and then they.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Could go, everything's fine and put the product back on
the shelf, and they came out stronger. So that's that's
a fantas one. And then there's there's another one that's
probably not so famous, but it's an organization. This is
also you know, late to early two thousands, late nineties
there's a food food company that made raw product, had
(18:52):
a raw product that went out to hundreds and hundreds
of brands. It was peanuts, and it's a national peanut operation. Anyway,
they had very sketchy oversight in terms of how their
products were, the food safety of their plants and everything,
and all of a sudden they were there was some
(19:15):
recalls happening some of their product. We had three clients
at the time in the PR firm that I that
I ran, that were impacted by this. Again, it's not
our client's fault, but it's their brand up there. So
now we've got to help them through this crisis. They've
got to go out and find a new vendor. All
that company was out of business six months later. Wow,
(19:36):
and they've been in business for a long time. So
there's a you know, the Thailand all example, let's pull
the product off the shelf till we know what's going on.
The peanut company example was, you know, we don't care
how we take care of a product, you know, just
you know, cut corners, get it out there, and all
of a sudden they were impacting hundreds of brands, all
who all had to come up with their own crisis
(19:58):
plans something that wasn't their fault. But again the point is,
but it's their brand name, right, you know, nobody knows
who this other who the vendor is, right? Uh that
I got sick because I eat your product?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
And so as I'm listening to you in the in
those moments, you have to understand what your backup plans
are because I'm listening like, hey, you know, who is
the next vendor you know for us to get these
products from, you know, because everyone will not have the
extensive products that something like Towel now would have because
(20:37):
they could pull one product and still make a little
bit of money off of something else possibly, but you know,
they have some a little more diversity. Some of these
other organizations don't have that type of diverse portfolio, you know.
And so understanding what there for this one particular person
or brand, what is the idea or how do we
(20:59):
go about understanding like, hey, you know what if this
product goes under, we have this other vendor that's you know,
kind of waiting in the wings maybe you know, but
I understand that there's some vendor loyalty and you know,
other things that goes on, you know, So how do
we navigate in the situation like that because we might
have this long term contract, deal, handshake, whatever it might
(21:22):
have been, especially if that's part of our crises thing
like they may not want us to do business with
somebody else, especially their competitor.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So how do we deal with something like that?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, well, that's that's that's a great business question you're asking,
And I guess the only way around it is to again,
and you alluded to it, is you You've probably always
got a backup in mind because you're getting you know,
we're all getting called on by vendors all the time,
so we know who's out there. So at least we
know who the list is of people who can Now
(21:56):
we need a we need a new peanut supplier, so
let's go to you know actme' has been calling us
a lot. Let's go to actme Peanuts and interview them
and check. Because again, when you're pulling product off the
shelf like that, you know, like one of our one
of our clients was an ice cream company who had
you know, didn't have nuts in every product obviously, but
(22:17):
they had some, so they had to like kind of
pull those they had to pull those products off the shelf,
and and and.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
And then uh, you know, hopefully you got a backup
right right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, I think that's something that you know, a lot
of us, especially those that are new to business, and
we're like, hey, you know what, because I have a
few clients and people that I know that started a
clothing line. Well, they're only getting their clothes from one vendor,
you know, or their product they apparel for one vendor.
And so what happens at that vendor getting hit with
(22:50):
the terrorists right now or whatever it is, So now
all of a sudden, they don't want to send the
stuff here, or your cost is way too.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Much, you know, so what is that alternative?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
And sometime times we don't look at those things down
the line because we're not dealing with it today.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
But what happens six months you know from now?
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Yeah, it's you know, we're in we're heading in a
time right now. And you brought up the terraffs and
everything where you know, businesses are just up in arms
trying to figure out what they're going to do, and
and so everybody's having to rethink how they go about
their business, right and and and and it's it's you
(23:32):
hope that it has some positive impact at some point,
because like we get creative and we create new ways
in which we can get around some of these issues
that are plaguing us. And that's what we call real
crisis management. So it's not just about managing the crisis
at the time. It's also about being able to have
plans in place that allow us to prevent crises from happening,
(23:57):
to keep something bad rammed. So in other words, to
to the what we've been talking about having backup, having
backup vendors, knowing that something may happen to our primary vendor,
but we got to have a secondary vendor to make
sure that that well, that's that's that's real crisis management.
Because now if that first vendor, you know, Welch, is
(24:17):
on the deal or we can't get the product from anymore,
then all of a sudden, we don't that doesn't matter
because we got a backup plan.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
So we're not going to have a crisis. We're not
going to have a crisis because we're ready to go.
That's real crisis management. And that's what we tried to
preach through our clients all the time.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Nice, nice, Nice, you know, I really appreciate you coming on.
I think you've shared a lot of information and I
think there's some things that people need to understand, you know,
with your process a crisis, a prevention.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
You know how you deal with all those types of things.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So can you please let everyone know where they can
find you your information and learn from one of the
best in the business.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Well, thank you. Two places.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
My LinkedIn profile is all crisis all the time, except
for a host of a podcast, so I put some
stuff up about that has nothing to do with the crisis.
But there's a lot of content on there. So people
can go on my LinkedIn profile Mike Swinson one and
learn just stuff. And then crisis track dot com t
RK crisis track dot com is where they can go
(25:17):
on and for just under one thousand bucks can buy
nine videos where I spell out in very great detail
how you can put your own crisis plan together. So
it's LinkedIn and crisistrack dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Now, of course, everyone you know that information will be
in the show notes. So if you're riding somewhere, walking somewhere,
you're experiencing your crisis at this very moment, you can
always come back to this click on the link it'll
be right there so you.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Can learn how to deal with this.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
But you know, before I let you go, you know
there's some I asked this question to everybody comes on
the show, my world famous question. Would you rather the
question now thing outside the box? There's no right or
wrong answer, but would you rather choose three doors or
a fork in the road.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
I think the fork in the road because I've had
a couple of those where it was either or decision,
and uh, fortunately I made the right decision impacted my
career in a positive way nice and and one was
I took the right path, and one was I chose
not to take the other path. So I think the
(26:29):
fork in the road is to me, uh, just kind
of that, you know, from a life standpoint, it's like,
you know, we have that we make little we have
little forks in the road every day. You know, we
don't think them about that, but it's like we're making
little decisions every day that are impacting our lives or
impacting others' lives. And uh, they may be small decisions,
(26:49):
but it's like I do this or do I do this?
So I think the fork in the road is pretty
much for me a metaphor of living life.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, I think we all experienced one of those at
some point in time. And to me, it doesn't matter
which way you go, whether it's the doors or the
forking road. They're all decisions. But in those decisions, it
depends on how you deal with those decisions and how
you view them. To me, everything is a life is
a life lesson, So I don't think there's anything wrong.
(27:18):
Some way might be a little longer than the other, right,
that's right, you know. But but you know, I appreciate
you coming on today, I really do.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
I appreciate you having me on it.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
It was a great conversation, and you know, hopefully somebody
out there gets out and says, maybe I better start
planning today. Most definitely if one person does it, then
this was a huge success.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah and so and so.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
In that, I just want everyone that's listening please identify
one area in your business or your life where you
might have avoided a potential or addressing a potential storm.
So if you can identify it and then take one
proactive step towards preparing for it, you know, and there's
something that the thing about it as well, reflect on
your last setback and ask yourself why did this happen,
(28:05):
and now find out a way to find a teachable
moment and a place to put you in a better
place of leadership. So I thank y'all very much for
listening today, and Mike I think it very much for
coming on the show, and of course everyone His information
will be in the show notes and I'll talk to
you just a.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Little bit later.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Thanks for listening. Follow Maurice Chisholm on social media to
stay connected and check back weekly for new episodes until
next time. That will never work, or will it
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