January 30, 2024 • 57 mins
LARRY LAWSON - In over 36 years in law enforcement, I Have learned a few things. The most important is the proper gathering and preservation of evidence is vital to putting the "Bad Guy" behind bars. It’s no different in the world of paranormal investigation. Whether it is the search for the afterlife, cryptozoology, extraterrestrials and UFO's, how we gather the evidence of their existence, preserve that evidence and present it to a court of our peers will make the ultimate difference in proving the existence of worlds and entities that are beyond our imagination. Join me on a journey that seeks to prove, with undisputable evidence, what man has struggled to believe for centuries. Join me, Larry Lawson, host of PARANORMAL STAKEOUT coming to The ‘X’ Zone Broadcast Network. Check out the broadcast schedule for the PARANORMAL STAKEOUT with yours truly, Larry Lawrence at www.xzbn.net.
Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.
Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Ah, Henry. Welcome to theX Zone, a place where fact is
fiction and fiction is reality. Nowhere's your host, rob acconnell in the
(00:48):
AA. Mee, No, Ican't go back then in the end,
no, I can't go back there. I'm shocked at you to die.
(01:10):
And welcome to our two of tonight'sshow Here on the X and I am
Rob McConnell. We're coming to youfrom our broadcast center in studios in St.
Catharine's, Ontario, Canada, righthere on your hometown from Radio Classic
twelve twenty, streaming around the worldon Classic twelve twenty dot CA. My
guest this hour is Larry Lawson andhe is a former retired police officer who
(01:33):
investigates the paranormal through with his groupin Florida. Joining me now from Vero
Beach, Florida is Larry Lawson.And Larry. Great having you on the
show tonight, Buddy, Oh,it's great to be back. Rob.
Thanks for having me. Larry,tell our listeners a little bit about who
you are and what your groups do. Okay, Well, as you said,
I'm a retired police officer. Ispent about about forty years in the
(01:57):
job doing various things everything from patrolwork, a lot of time in the
investigative realm. Also as a criminaljustice educator. I ran the police academy
for this great region of Florida fora number of years, and through all
of that I kind of experienced somethings that couldn't be explained as a lot
(02:17):
of folks do in the law enforcementworld. And that ended up being us
creating the Florida your Paranormal Investigation andby continuation, Indian River Hauntings, which
is a group down here in Florida. And what we do is we a
investigate paranormal paranormal events, but wealso spend time teaching folks about it and
(02:44):
teaching folks the history of the areaas well as the paranormal history of the
area. Larie, when did youhave to have your first paranormal experience?
Was? I just got into lawenforce when I was working in the Dade
County Jail in Miami, Florida,just a young youngster is just barely twenty,
and I was working in the jail. I was not a guest there,
(03:07):
I was employed, and I wassitting in the control booth and I
clear as day saw a figure walkon the catwalk down one of the cell
blocks and I hollered at the guysthat were working with me. I thought
the lieutenant had come upstairs to catchhis horse around or whatever. And I
(03:27):
hollered at the guys that said,hey, lieutenant's on the catwalk, and
they went out and checked and said, there's nobody there. Now, this
figure I was not see through.It wasn't anything that drew my attention to
anything other than it was a person. It was a solid figure, but
there was nobody there. So thatwas my first real experience. Unlike a
lot of people that have experiences whenthey were kids, mine was a twenty
(03:50):
year old rookie cop. Did othermembers of the unit that you were working
with also see unexplained and all ofthat that they were afraid to talk about?
Well, and that's a really reallygood question. I found that the
guys, they weren't afraid to talkabout it in our closed little group there,
(04:13):
but nobody would talk about it onthe outside. In this particular case,
when they got back to the controlbooth, they said, lost,
there's nobody out there. I said, I'm telling you, I saw what
I saw, and they looked atme, just shrugged the shoulders and said,
this place is haunted. Stuff likethis happens all the time. And
they proceeded to tell me about sheetsthat were folded in front of the suicide
(04:35):
cell, the cell where we hadpeople on suicide watch. They talked about
the coffee makers coming on on theirown, all kinds of strange things like
that. So, while I can'tsay that they would have gone to the
shift commander and talked about it,it certainly was discussed in small groups.
But back in those days, yougot to understand, in our business,
(04:55):
you started talking about stuff like this, such for duty exam, and that's
the way it was back in thosedays, so you didn't really talk about
it outside your own little circles.How had it changed over the years,
Larry, since you were that young, nineteen year old sheriff's deputy in the
Dade County jail, you know untilpresent time. You know, you just
(05:18):
retired from a law enforcement agency whereyou were a detective, and was the
feeling within the department the same asit was when you were just a rookie.
Absolutely not. It's really amazing howit evolved over the years. Like
I said, back in those days, you just didn't talk about it.
(05:38):
Except within your own small little groupsperhaps, But I think it really began
to change when the TV show startedcoming out and a lot of people knocked
the TV shows, and some ofit's for good reason, but it did
bring an awareness. It did bringan awareness to the public that made it
a little bit more mainstream, andthen you began to see agencies being talked
(06:02):
about a whole lot more in agencies. In fact, it's gotten to the
point where there's a one agency inparticular in the Hawaiian Islands that did an
entire I'm sorry, Larry, noproblem, did an entire YouTube production of
all the hauntings that went on intheir precincts. The on Oahu, it
(06:26):
was Honolulu PDA. It was outthere, So that shows you how much
it has evolved. Now cops talkabout it regularly amongst each other, and
as you're aware, we're even creatingan organization involving law enforcement officers that are
also a paranormal investigators on the side. How has your experience as a seasoned
(06:47):
law enforcement officer as well as aseason detective help you with your investigations into
the paranormal. The way we frameour investigators really in many ways mirrors how
I would have conducted a homicide investigation. I'm certainly not suggesting these are homicide
investgations that don't misunderstand me, butthe techniques are the same. In other
(07:10):
words, everything is structured. Youconduct your investigations a certain way, how
you talk to people, whether they'rehere. On the other side, it
doesn't matter how you talk to people, your ability to listen, your ability
to discern what might be a bumpcaused by the air conditioner turning on,
(07:33):
or something that you can't explain.So it broadens your mind and allows you
to look at different pieces of evidencewith a more of an open mind yet
skeptical mind. You never you nevertake the first answer that's given to you.
In other words, a lot ofthe groups that are out to Laurie
do not have any formal training whenit comes to proper investigative techniques, proper
(07:57):
ways of collecting evidence, maintaining evidence, securing evidence. How what kind of
an effect does this have on theparanormal or you know, ghost research to
the societies that are out there,Well, it's a free for all,
to be honest, and that's notto say there aren't a lot of good
(08:18):
teams out there and a lot offolks with the right the right motives in
mind. But if they don't havetraining on how how how to conduct an
investigation, how to set it up, how to do the paperwork, how
to collect the evidence, preserve theevidence, then it just becomes a lot
of as folks having fun. AndI'm certainly not going to kick that,
(08:39):
but it doesn't allow for a standardizedcollection of evidence that allows you to come
to a conclusion and go ahead.I was just going to ask you if
if in your opinion that most ofthese groups are just hobbyists and you know
they're out there for the thrill aswell as to well, let's see if
they're really ghosts out there, andif there are, okay, super If
(09:03):
they're not, we'll try again nextweekend when you get a little bit of
both. Rob there's a faction ofour field that I refer to as paranormal
thrill seekers. And while that termupfront sounds kind of derogatory, it's not
meant to be. There are peoplethat enjoy doing things for a thrill.
I mean, why would somebody jumpout of a perfectly good airplane for you?
(09:26):
Exactly? They do it for Theydo it for the thrill. So
there are folks out there that certainlywant the thrill, the excitement of experiencing
something unknown, a voice from theother side, perhaps something moving, or
maybe even a full bodied apparition poppingup in front of them, and that's
the excitement, and that's a thrill. But not a lot of organizations look
(09:48):
at that in a sterile sense.Okay, this is the evidence put before
me. How did it happen,how did it occurred, what are the
factors around it, and putting allof this together to come to a conclusion
of what this really is. So, yes, there are a lot of
folks out there that are doing itfor the fun of it, and there's
nothing wrong with that. I haveabsolutely no problem with that as long as
(10:11):
they understand that's what they're doing.But there are more and more groups that
are starting to take things a lotmore seriously, and they're trying to expand
the scientific the scientific direction of thefield's going. And are they succeeding hm
(10:31):
working on it. It's a toughgame, rob because you don't First of
all, we really don't know whatthe phenomenon is, and anybody that says
they do are either fooling themselves orfooling you, or a little bit of
both, because we don't know,can't you can't see nothing's out there,
(10:52):
because people for millenniums, all socialclasses, all cultures, have been experiencing
something. So something is going on, it's what. That's something is that
we have to try to find out. And that's why we have to look
at these events with a sterile investigativeeye to try to find the answers.
(11:13):
If that's the direction you want togo, if you just want to go
out and get the bijeeber scared outof you, great, Why is it
that some people can have these experiencesand other people standing right beside them don't
experience the same encounter as the personbeside them does. For example, you've
get ten to fifteen people going toa haunted house, even if ten have
(11:39):
what they claim to be a paranormalexperience, and you've still got five people
and saying, jeez, we sawnothing what all the time? Yeah?
But what determines that, Larry,What determines who has the experience and who
doesn't. Rob If we had thatanswer, that would be the beginning of
solving this whole thing. I don'tknow there are theories out there, and
(12:03):
I caution there are strictly theories becausewe don't know yet. I had an
incident one time to give you anexample, and I personally saw this.
We were doing a historical tour ina town called Felsmer. You're familiar with
it, yes, and yes itis. My son Ryan, very very
skeptical, very very straightforward, nononsense kind of kid. He was taking
(12:28):
a group into what was the oldbank there and there was some activity going
there, and they took two cellphones and on the both cell phones,
one was a Samsung, one wasan Apple, and the question was asked,
you heard it on both the recorderson these phones, is there anybody
(12:48):
here? On one of the phones, clear as a bell, you got
a voice that came back. Hedidn't even need airphones for it. But
of course, but the other phonedidn't get a thing. M that is
true. What does that occur?And I personally, I personally witnessed this.
Now, the theories here would befrequency and vibration, as I'm sure
(13:11):
where we are all creatures that havedifferent frequencies and vibrations as part of our
being, and could that be partof it? Could it be the way
the calibration of the phones, thosefrequencies didn't match. Now, two things
could have happened there on only twothings. A it was faked or B
(13:35):
one voice was there on one phoneand one wasn't. For some unknown reason,
I can tell you, you knowme, it wasn't faked. All
right, everybody, Hey to dothis whole friend, but you and I
have to take a commercial break anexplanation. I guess this hour is my
good friend Larry Lawson, and heis in Vero Beach, California. He
is a paranormal researcher, investigator andin my opinion, a very knowledgeable historian.
(14:01):
And if you'd like to find outmore about Larry, visit Indian River
Hauntings dot com. The X Zonewith he Australia. Rob McConnell and larryloss
will return right here on Classic twelvetwenty after these short messages. Don't away
the right to say, I'm RobMcConnell and welcome to the X Zone,
(14:28):
a place where fact is fiction andfiction is reality. Today on the X
Zone, Bessie the lake Monster ofLake Erie from the time the ice starts
to break and flow on Lake ErieMonster trackers start their never ending quest to
prove the existence of Lake Erie's monsterBessie. When it comes to looking for
Bessie, internet provider and developer Dirkvander Plugue of Hamilton, Ontario starts his
(14:50):
electronic and physical search from his LakeErie cottage. Using a television camera that
is equipped with night vision technology connectedto a computer. Vander plug and his
group of dedicated Monster trackers around theworld spend countless hours watching computer screens in
the hope to get a glimpse ofthe elusive Bessie. At www dot Monster
tracker dot com. Spring through fall, vander Pluge and people along Lake Erie
(15:11):
shoreline continue their search for proof thatthe elusive and legendary Bessie does in fact
exist. Then Gay Orange and theShips of the Morning, someone who wish
(15:33):
they'd never been burning are the Gooseto the Game Away, saving away the
brig of the Goose to the GayBarn, And welcome back, every one.
This is the exte I'm Rob McConnellI. Guess this hour is Larry
(15:56):
Lawson and he is with Indian RiverHauntings. His website is www dot Indian
River Hauntings dot com. And you'relistening to us right here on your hometown
radio Classic twelve twenty and streaming aroundthe world and into the Great Beyond on
Classic twelve twenty dot CA Larry,we were talking about how come some people
(16:18):
encounter the paranormal in a group andothers don't. And you use the cell
phone example of you know how thingswork on one you know you had an
Apple phone, you had an Android, and one picked up an EVP and
the other didn't. There has tobe a logical explanation. Oh, I
(16:41):
agree, but what is it?And that's what we don't know. Now
you can also you were talking abouthow what people how one person can experience
it in the next next to them, doesn't That frequency vibration thing could also
come into play. But there's alsothe possibility of massosteria. There could be
people's people's imagination running wild. Thereare incidents where I've seen folks that believe
(17:07):
to have are believed to have psychicability, say oh, I see something
in the corner. Well, nextthing, you know, everybody's seeing it.
So there's a lot of things thatcome into play here, and we
have yet to figure out a fullproof way to avoid folks getting caught up
in that end of it, Larry, when you and your team go out
to do an investigation, how doyou do it? You know, how
(17:30):
do you proceed from the time thatyou get the call from a concerned person
that they really believe that their houseis haunted to the time when you and
your team saying, all right,that's it, the investigation is finished,
let's go on to the next one. What happens? Okay, great question
and starters. A lot of times, we don't do a lot of homes
(17:52):
for a lot of different reasons.We do a lot of commercial buildings,
we do a lot of businesses,but we will do home if there's a
problem. So I wanted to makethat clear up front. We start off
by first I have one member ofmy team make contact with the person in
charge of the venue, and theygo over a questionnaire with them that includes
(18:12):
things like, is there anybody therethat has had mental health issues? Anybody
there that's ill? Is there anybodythat's been abusing narcotics. We have to
ask these very sensitive questions because ithelps us begin to paint a picture of
what's going on there. We getto the scene. I don't want to
boy with all the little details,but we basically get there. I have
(18:33):
a person designated as my lead investigator, guy named Mike Maxwell, retired firefighter.
He puts the teams together based uponhow many investigators can show up at
that particular venue, how big itis, so on and so forth,
and then we proceed to go throughrotations. One group would go in one
area, another group will going theother area. At a certain time,
they'll switch and switch positions. Duringthose periods of times, they share information
(18:57):
with me at the command center thatI type into the computer. If they
have evidentiary stuff such as EVPs orphotographs, it gets downloaded into the computer
that later gets put into another harddrive and locked away. Once once we've
(19:18):
finished for that particular evening, anddecision's got to be made where we're coming
back. Look at this kind oflike a crime scene. You don't always
get everything the first time you walkthrough it through, so we tend to
like, if everything is seeming okayand we've gotten at least a little bit
(19:40):
of information, we'll many times wantto come back to maybe even three times,
just to see if there's something there. And let's say we got something
really interesting the first time, Let'smake sure it's real, we'll go back
and we'll try to recreate it thenext time and see if it can be
recreated. Therefore, it isn't necessarilyany anything paranormal, or maybe we'll we'll
(20:03):
get a repeat. So so we'lltend to go back to spots. So
we just don't go one spot usuallyand then don't go back unless there's a
reason for it. What has beenyour most haunting investigation that you've done.
(20:23):
Haunting, that's a great way toput it, because haunting does not necessarily
mean scary. We got called intoa place, little little shop, it
was a mystic shop, and wegot called there. My daughter happened to
be a cop in the town wherethat was going on, and she answered
(20:44):
a burglary, a burglar alarm callerin the middle of the night, and
one thing led to another. Somethinghappened while she was there, and she
said, you need to talk tomy dad. So those folks called us
in and we ended up doing threeinvestigations there. But to make a long
story short, at the investigated started off and it was quiet, and
then suddenly we started getting information fromdifferent sources. And we'll set up different
(21:07):
pieces of equipment to kind of triangulateor coroborate each other, for example,
dowsing rods, a spirit box,maybe a rampot, or some different pieces
of equipment in there. We filmeverything, I might add everything is videotape,
so everything can be seen and lookedat with a discerning eye later.
(21:29):
So we're going through this, andto make a really really long story short,
we started getting some information that wasreally pertinent. And we even had
and this was I've never been.We had a medium that was there also,
and this is done in a veryscientific, sterile way, so that
doesn't affect anything else. And Ihad airphones on listening to what the medium
was saying. It was confirming whatthe other piece of equipment we're saying.
(21:55):
We got a name, we gotan age. Because of my background and
crimes against children, it was achild we were talking to. I started
asking questions and I was able todetermine that what this child was saying was,
you know, she's a five yearold kid that died in possibly in
nineteen thirty nine. Very interesting.So I get my daughter to go check
(22:17):
and she they can't find records anywhere, because records back in those days was
probably just a suggestion. And shewent and talked to the superintendent of the
local cemetery in the town, andhe ends up calling me a day or
two later, and once again,to make a long story short, he
had some folks come down from thenortheast who were looking at another grave site.
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This is before he even talk tomy daughter, and he got talking
to them about children that were buriedthere. And the guy says to the
superintendent, yeah, we had anothersome sure tail or you know, distant
relatives that lived here also, andthey had a little girl. Her name
was Belinda, which is the namewe got. She was five years old,
(23:04):
which is the age we got,and she died under tragic circumstances in
nineteen thirty nine, and Rob theytook us to the grave. Unreal.
It is unreal. And you know, we're working that right now, trying
to put those pieces together from crimehalf a century ago. More than a
(23:25):
half a century ago. May neverget anywhere. We're working hard on it.
But what I'm getting at is there'sno way those two things could have
been connected with each other. Andthat's the sort of thing that keeps me
going. So when you say haunting, that's it, because is there an
unceelt homicide out here. Yeah,that's right, So haunting that when I
(23:52):
when you say haunting, that's whatcomes to my mind. What do you
think the connection with ghosts and spiritsthat you and other paranormal investigators encounter during
the course of a of a casethat you're working on and the afterlife,
how does this connect? Well,once again behind the answer to that question,
(24:15):
we wouldn't be doing this, butthat that's there's three things that we
look at with three theories. Oneis the theory that these are spirits that
have somehow gone to the other sideand there reaching back. How that's occurring,
We're still working on it. Thenext Einstein talks about I think eleven
different dimensions. Do these dimensions blend? And with that you've got things like
(24:40):
the STACKTA I just want to writeout away the STACKTA theory, stack dimension
theory. Where it stood, they'reall stacked up and sometimes these dimensions crossed
and rob could it be us?Could could a lot of this just be
the creation of our ow own minds? You know, people say, you
(25:02):
know, we only use twenty percentof our brain. The truth is we
use one hundred percent of it,but we only know what twenty percent of
it does. So is it usthat's creating it? So how do we
connect all of them? Not sureyet, because it could be a combination
of several things. Let's say Einsteinwas right and there are dimensions out there?
Would that answer? Would that answerwhat the Catholic faith calls purgatory?
(25:29):
It's another dimension And I'm not surehow I feel about all that yet.
But it's a theory and you gotto keep your mind open to it.
And I don't know if I'm reallyanswering your question correctly. But we don't
know what the connection is yet.You talk to some folks, they'll talk
about you go to the other sideand it's a hive mind. Almost everything
(25:51):
goes in one spot, and whenit's your time to come out, you
you know, you come back toEarth. What part of the investigation do
you have problems with the different religiousphilosophies and how they see the para normal
or is that something that you andyour team really don't focus on. I'm
(26:14):
not sure I understand the question.Are you all right? Let me let
I'll rephrase it. That's my rephrasingquestion, Bumper, is the is you're
talking about Catholicism? A few momentsago. And and you know, the
(26:37):
Bible is filled with paranormal events fromstart to finish. Absolutely, How does
one's belief religious belief work with one'squest to investigate it to solve the mysteries
of the paranormal? Is there aconflict there? That's now, that's a
great question, And uh, yeah, I have. We've wrestled with that
(27:00):
because I'm of the Christian faith andI have no doubt that God and Jesus
exists in my opinion, So howdoes this all connect? And it says
the Bible scasire not supposed to messwith this stuff. Okay, But an
interesting thing. My father in law, God rest his soul, was a
(27:22):
Catholic deacon, very very religious,pious man, and I would tell him
about what we were doing. Hefound it fascinating and he said, Larry,
there's nothing wrong with what you're doingas long as you are doing it
for knowledge and not for personal gain. And he said, we pray to
spirits all the time, so tractfullythey're out there. So that's how he
(27:44):
took it. And I guess thatthe best way for me to answer your
question is I have personally found veryfew people that are offended by this,
even if they're Baptist, Catholic,or regardless of what religious their belief I
guess because because the true fact,the tact we're taking on finding out the
answers, Larry's standby buddy, We'vegot to take our break. Oh wow,
(28:07):
yeah, fifteen, You know,thirteen fourteen minutes goes by really fast
when we're deeply involved in a topicsuch as we're talking about tonight explanation.
Larry Lawson is our guest. Hiswebsite is Indian River Hauntings dot com,
and you can listen to Larry's radioshow, Paranormal Steakout by going to Paranormal
Steakout dot org. This is theX one and I'm Rob McConnell and we're
coming to you from our broadcast centerin Studios in St. Catherine's, Ontario,
(28:30):
Canada, on Classic twelve twenty ataround the world on Classic twelve twenty
dot CA. Don't go wave,we will be right back everywhere. Demons
dance everywhere, Southern Gales, Tannedseals and till the TI. I love
(28:52):
the and the way there's some lightplays on the way that mins fulter the
end I'm making she's getting excitations.Welcome back, everyone, This is the
(29:23):
excellent I am Rob McConnell and you'relistening to us on your hometown radio Classic
twelve twenty and streaming around the worldon a Classic twelve twenty dot ca A.
Larry Lawson is my special guest.He's a personal friend of mine.
Explanation. I've had the pleasure ofknowing this gentleman for nearly ten years now,
Larry pretty much. Yeah. Andif you'd like to find out more
(29:44):
about Larry and the great work thathe does, and if you're ever in
the Indian River area of Florida,you have to get a hold of Larry
and go on one of his tours. They are phenomenal, the best part
of work, you know, goingon any of Larry's tours, they're entertaining,
their informative, their educational, andyou also get a historical perspective of
(30:07):
the areas that you go into.So his website is Indianriverhuntings dot com.
And if you'd like to listen toLarry's radio show, Paranormal Stakeout, go
to www dot Paranormal Steakout dot RG. Larry. Before we went to the
break, we were talking about howone's religious beliefs may or may not interfere
with their paranormal investigative side. Andyou were telling us that your father was
(30:33):
your father in law was a deacon, and he gave you some presound advice.
But what other advice or how haveyou found the religious aspect of your
investigations team as it reflects to theparanormal investigation since the Bible basically says,
you know, like paranormal is taboo. Well, and now we can get
(31:00):
into a little bit of philosophy here, and there are people out there that
that feel so strongly about that thatthey feel that any inquiry into the other
side is just wrong. I don'tlook at it that way. And and
this is just typical of human beings. We all have different views of things.
And the way I feel about itand talking and I'm not Catholic,
(31:23):
but my father in law and Ihad some really deep discussions on this,
and it's it's what your the motivationis under. And while the Bible is
the is the word of God,it was also written by man for different
reasons, and I think we needto keep that in mind because man,
(31:44):
man, I've never known man tobe perfect so when they write things,
it may come out a little bitskewed. That being said, I look
at it as I am not tryingto tap into the other side to get
an unfair advantage in life. I'mlooking I'm doing what God gave me,
(32:06):
and that's doing an inquiry, tryingto figure things out. God gave me
a gift to be a detective,and that's really what I'm doing here.
Now that may be a justification onmy side, I fully admit that,
but that's how I see it.I'm trying to find out what this phenomenon
is and not one hundred percent surewhat it is. Is it us?
(32:29):
Is it the scientific theory of dimensions? Is there something on the other side
that's allowing folks to reach out tous just to send us messages. We
don't know what it is yet,So I think that inquiry is legitimate.
Go ahead. Why is it calledthe other side? Oh, I don't
know, Because this is possible ifwe're talking about Einstein and the theories of
(32:53):
stacked dimensions or stacked universes, thatif there is no other size, they
are they're existing with us on thisvery same level of reality, except a
different dimension. Yep. I thinkwe've all we've always taken this. Let's
(33:15):
go back to the movies. It'sjust there's always been the veil on the
other side. What's on the otherside of life? I think it's just
while we viewed it, I wouldtend to agree with what you're saying,
is there really any evidence that wearen't all existing in the same plane?
Right? You know? And togo off on another little quick tansient,
(33:36):
I think this is one of mybiggest frustrations about equipment in the paranormal field.
When and I am not smart enoughto figure it out. I'm putting
that on the table right now.But but there are so many intelligent folks
out there that have this kind oftalent. Why haven't we been able to
come up with equipment that would beable to begin to separate that? Well,
(33:57):
I think I've got a bit ofan answer there this, you know.
And it's just like Seth Shostak andSETI. They are using technology that
is known to us, and Ibelieve they're trying to find it find an
existence of extraterrestrials who are on atotally different wavelength. And that's why the
(34:17):
investigative techniques that SETI uses as wellas other astronomers, radio telescopes and so
on, are not finding what they'relooking for because we are looking for and
have everything calibrated for carbon based livingunits. But what what does it say
that? Where does it say thatwe know people out there have to be
(34:39):
carbon based? Maybe they're silicon based. So no matter what we're trying to
use to communicate, isn't working.Is that possible that that is the same
scenario when investigating the paranormal Absolutely,and I think you actually hit something right
on the head there. We constantlytalk about how can somebody travel here from
(35:04):
another galaxy? I mean that theycouldn't do it. We're looking at it
through physics as we see it todayexactly. And let's face it, one
hundred and fifty years ago, anybodysaid that we'd be flying in space,
other than Jules Verne, they wouldhave said you're crazy. Why because they
didn't have that knowledge then. Soit could be forty fifty years from now
(35:28):
we might have that equipment. Butwe have to do is we have to
keep working towards It's not going tobe handed to us. We've got to
keep experimenting, we've got to keeptrying out different techniques until something begins to
click, and one of these individuals, electrical engineers or engineers of some sort
may be able to eventually put apiece of equipment together using new technology that
(35:50):
today we don't have. So Ithink you've hit something right on the head
there. I totally agree with you. I often wonder, Larry, what
would happen if tomorrow some geniuses thatMI I t or some other great hall
of education come out and prove thatEinstein was wrong. How would that affect
science and how we look at theparanormal Wow, Well for starters, and
(36:15):
this is where and you get folkson both sides of the fence. There
are some folks that no matter whatyou tell them, they're not going to
believe it. And there are somefolks that say that no matter what you
prove to them, they're going tostill say they're right. And it exists.
The answer is somewhere kind of inthe middle. How I look at
it and how my team looks atis we're going to where the evidence takes
(36:36):
us right. And that's what agood investigator does. They take the evidence,
they examine it, and they goin the direction of what that evidence
says to prove their case. Andthat's where serious researchers have to be.
If you're so convinced that it exists, that proof is put before you that
(36:59):
it does and you can't see it, well, then are you really truly
objectively investigating the case? Of coursenot, that would just be like you
were wry when we were in thepolice force starting an investigation and already in
our minds putting the head cuffs ona suspect. Can I share a story
with you real quickly? Which issaid perspective? Sure? All right.
(37:22):
Most of my work as an investigatorwas crimes against children. I ran a
unit that was doing that, andI had a case one time where I
got called to the hospital. Iwas the sergeant in charge of the unit,
but I took a lot of thecalls myself, and I went to
the hospital. I saw this justdarling little girl. She's maybe four or
five years old, the biggest,blackest eyes you've ever seen in your life.
(37:43):
Oh wow, And I was sickand in my mind I remember here,
I said, somebody's going to jailfor this. But then I investigated
it. I backed off. Iinvestigated it. I looked at the evidence,
and it was an accident. Andwhat happened was the child bumped her
head and through play and the blooddrew. It drained down into her eyes
(38:07):
and it made it look like somebodypunched her lights out. That incident right
there, Rob woke me up.It was oh god, it was thirty
some odd years ago now, butit woke me up, and I realized
I can't jump to conclusions. Igot to look at all the evidence.
Based upon the evidence, I makemy decision. So, speaking about evidence,
(38:31):
old friend, in your opinion,as a former police detective and now
after twenty two years of investigating theparanormal, do you believe that there is
enough evidence that if you were totake the evidence at hand to go into
a court of law proceed as ifit was a criminal case, that there
(38:52):
would be enough evidence to give thepreponderance of evidence to you that the court
would say, definitely, there isproof of the paranormal. The paranormal does
exist based on the evidence presented tothe court this day. No, And
the reason being is so much ofthe evidence, while compelling, while compelling,
(39:16):
the way it was collected, theway it was observed, the circumstances
by which it was seen or observed, would allow, at least in this
country. I can't speak Forgetta,would allow a good defense attorney to say,
but what about this? And whatabout that? Because and I'm thinking
about it in my system here,you know, all the defense has to
(39:38):
do is put doubt in the mindthat's right, And we have not yet
reached a point where we can proveit to that level in a court of
law. And that it's amazing yousaid that, because that's my kind of
my mantra. I want to bringevidence to be able to prove to a
jury of my peers that the paranormalexists. Do I believe it? Was?
(40:00):
Sure? I believe that there's somethingout there. I believe that there's
something we can't explain. But weare not there yet where we can say
put a stamp on it, sayit without a doubt it exists. And
until another thing, I like tosay, tell Abraham Lincoln pulls up a
chair, sits down right next tome, and say, Larry, this
is what's going on on the otherside, and here's all the proof.
(40:20):
Until something like that happens. AndI'm being facetious, of course, it's
going to be almost impossible to doit. Now. I've seen things,
Rob, I cannot explain. Ihave seen things. You and I have
talked about this well, the caseI told you about a little while ago.
I can't explain how this is happening. I can't explain how people for
generations have had things happening from everyculture, every socioeconomic level. Something is
(40:46):
happening. Our job. Our jobis to find out what that is.
I'm so happy to see you andother members of law enforcement, like our
good friend Elliot van Dusen, whois a former RCP officer in Nova Scotia,
the dedication in professionalism that you andElliott and other members of law enforcement
(41:07):
past and present are bringing to thefield of the paranormal because it shows that
it's getting some very serious attention,and that the procedures and policies that are
in place by people like yourself andElliott are professional and you know you're following
the mythology and methodology of an excellentcriminal investigator. And sometimes I've heard it
(41:35):
say that you know people take theirinvestigations too serious. Well, I say
they have to be taken serious becausein order to find what the issue is
and what the quote unquote crime isand that being the paranormal event, it
has to be taken seriously and donein a very methodical and professional manner.
(42:00):
Well, thank you for that,and I agree with you. Let's put
this into even deeper perspective. Youknow, we do residences on occasion,
but that's what a lot of teamsdo all the time, of residences and
people call them in because of issues, because of problems. If that team
doesn't go in there and conduct themselvesin such a way that they can give
(42:21):
these folks at least somewhat of ananswer of what's going on, give them
logical reasons why something may be ormay not be occurring, and they just
go in there and they hear thefirst bump on the wall and say,
oh, yep, it's definitely youruncle Billy or whatever. You could be
harming the people that live there.All right, let's stand by way.
I'm going to take my final break. Det Larry ex onation. Larry Lawston
(42:44):
is my very special guest. He'sa personal friend of mine. I've known
this guy for over ten years now, and I just love the way that
he and his organization investigate and theprocedures that they take and how they're bringing
professionalism into the paranormal invent instigation scenario. And we'll talk to more mortal Larry
on the other side of this breakas the excell continues right here on Classic
(43:06):
twelve twenty. Don't know where shemust be. There is freedom within,
(43:32):
there is freedom without trying to catchthe w Jenni Baker car. There's a
battle here. Many battles are lost, but you'll never see the end of
the world while you're traveling with me. He now, don't dream now.
(44:00):
Welcome back if you one the xown has heard Monday through Friday from ten
pm until midnight right here on yourhometown radio, Classic twelve twenty and streamed
around the world on Classic twelve twentydot CA. Larry Lawson is my special
guest. He is the gentleman responsibleand in charge of Indian River Hauntings and
(44:21):
the Florida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation inthe website is Indianriver Hauntings dot com.
First of all, Larry, thanksvery much for coming on the show tonight,
and congratulations on your show, ParanormalStakeout And oh, something really new
your book Haunted Indian River County that'spublished by Acadia Publishing, is going to
(44:43):
be released in March of twenty twentyfour. Very excited about that. Once
again, if I know, talkingabout the history, I love talking to
people about the history, especially ofour area. So the book has a
lot of history in it as wellas the hauntings surround our area. So
I'm hoping folks enjoy it. Doingthis show for the thirty plus years that
(45:05):
I have larry, one thing I'velearned that if you have an investigation team
that does not know history within thearea that they practice, or that they
like to say is the area oftheir expertise, they know nothing history.
History is everything when it comes tothis. To be a good paranormal investigator,
(45:30):
you must embrace and love history becausethat's the only way it works.
If you're just going in for thebump of the night, Okay, you're
having fun, but you're not gettinganywhere. History is everything. What are
some of the paranormal events that youcover in the book It Haunted India River
(45:53):
County. Well, a lot ofthem are experience my team has come up
with. I mean, we've hadsome really interesting ones. Probably one story
this is not even an investigation wedid, but this happened around the turn
of the twentieth century. Back abouteighteen ninety five, there was this gentleman
(46:17):
who created who actually started the townof Sebastian, but it was called New
Haven. He was a pastor fromup north and a bunch of kids.
One day after he was tossed outof office for he was the town postmaster,
some kids were clamming in the watersaw him on the beach digging,
and everybody thought he had a bunchof treasure from the treasure ships that had
(46:38):
sunk along the coast. And theywent home told his parents, Now it
couldn't have been kids, Oh no, we just saw him out there.
No, it couldn't have been.Well, he had died the day before,
so what the kids saw. That'san interesting story. Certainly the Driftwood
Resort where Waldo sex and Waldo Sexonwas the guy that really put the town
(46:58):
together. He still hangs around thereand he crops up every once in a
while, so we talk about him, We talk about fellsmere My beautiful Fells
Mire and all the things that goon inside of the school. And if
anybody's interested, on my website,we've even got this on here under under
the evidence section. One of myteam members up there one day was saying,
(47:21):
this little boy that we identify asBilly, and it's just the name
we gave him. And on hisrecorder one night, we're doing the thing
and he says, Billy, isthis the room you like to be?
In? The clear as a bellrob on the on the recorder you get
a little boy saying, yes,sir. Now, there were no kids
in that building. It was itwas in the evening on the weekend.
(47:43):
There were no kids in that building. It was just us. So those
are the sort of things that wetalk about, and you know, we
we try to put an explanation twistto it if it's there. But it's
just so many interesting things happened throughoutIndian River County, and I would lay
odds most communities have interesting incidents,but I just happened to love Indian River.
(48:05):
Well, if I'm not mistaken,Indian River Saint Sebastian and that area
is called the Treasure Coast. Yes, yes, that's after along our coast
here we have a large reef thathas sunk ships for the last several hundred
years. But in seventeen fifteen,a Spanish fleet of twelve ships went down
(48:27):
off our coast and strew so much. And they'd been pillaging Central and South
America and they strewed. There's somuch treasure out there that they still have
not recovered all of it, eventoday, even with mel Fisher out there
looking. And that's how we gotthe name of Treasure Coast, because after
a hurricane here, somebody's finding somethingof interest out there. So we're just
(48:51):
rife with history here. See peoplelook at Florida excuse me, sun,
citrus, fruit, beeches, DisneyWorld. But the history here is so
magnificent and so such an integral partof what was happening to our nation in
those early years. Just fascinating stuff. Tell us about some of the tours
(49:14):
that you yourself lead as a tourguide. Where do you take them?
Where do you take them? Andwhat's this feedback you get from the guests
who join you for these paranormal haunts. Well, if you first have the
general tours that I do are simplyhistorical ghost tours, and what that means
(49:37):
is I give you a history ofthe area. I tell you how the
area developed, who who are thefolks that were involved in it that I
walk them around and I only dotours and places that we have investigated,
so I will share things that wehave found, and I try to be
very very careful to tell folks thatI am not trying to convince you of
(49:58):
anything. I'm just laying out thefacts for you and you can take it
how you you so desire. Butwe talk about some of the events that
we've had, and there are plentyof legends around here. Also we do
it on the beach in Uau,do it in Sebastian, and we also
are out in Fillsmere on occasion.Now we also do other events where I
try to try to teach folks whatthis paranormal research thing is and what it's
(50:22):
not. And we do with severalof those events where we just present evidence
and we present people with information thatthey can make intelligent decisions. We tried.
We do not want to hype things, and sometimes folks actually have some
pretty fascinating things happen to them,and sometimes nothing happens. And the way
(50:43):
I explain it is, we don'tcontrol it. It either happens or it
doesn't. But most importantly the feedbackI get is thank you for the history.
The biggest the biggest pleasure I getis when I've got somebody that lives
in Vero Beach, have lived theretheir whole lives, and we finished the
tour and they said, I didn'tknow that. To me, that's success.
(51:05):
How do you deal with skepticism,Larry Well, I lived in I
was a cop. I lived ina world with skepticism. I understand,
brother, But I mean here,you know, being a cop is you
deal in facts all the time.Absolutely, but here in the paranormal we
don't have the facts to substantiate callingit real yet because we can't take it
(51:31):
in court. And I use thatas an example. So I want to
know how Larry, the person whois in charge of Indian River Hauntings as
well as the Florida burop Paranormal Investigation, deals with skeptics. Essentially, Hey,
(51:52):
you have the right to look atthings and feel about this the way
you want. I'm not trying toconvince you of anything. When I am
trying to have you do is keepit open mind. Now I've had people
look at me and say, you'rea cop. How can you believe this
stuff? You know, you dealin tangible evidence. And how I respond
(52:12):
to that is well, if Icame to your house to investigate a crime,
would you a rather me just comein and say, I think this
is what happened, because that's justwhat I think. Or would you want
me to examine all of the evidencecarefully go through it and determine what was
the crime and who committed it basedupon the evidence, after open minded investigation
(52:38):
and examination of evidence. And Isaid, well, obviously that we want
you to do that. I said, I would say paranormal investigation is the
same. Now if I was tosit here and tell everybody this exists,
because I said so, because I'veexperienced it, can't prove half of it.
But what I can say is toomany people over time have experienced too
(52:59):
many things to say that it's justeverybody's imagination. There's got to be something
to it. So keep an openmind, take the facts as you get
them, and then make your decision. Make you come to your conclusion.
You know, Larry, when youwere saying that you tell people you know,
you have the right to believe,I could just see you saying you've
(53:22):
got the right to You've got theright to believe as you're throwing them over
the front of your car. Andslapping handcuffs on them. No, that's
good. No, No, I'veone thing I've learned from being a cop.
Every time when I was on thejob, every time I thought I'd
(53:45):
seen the lowest level of human depravity, for example, somebody else would show
me that there's a new level.Oh, gosha. And what ends up
happening is I think I've learned tohave an open minded I'm not going to
shoot anything down unless I have theproof to shoot it down, just like
I'm not going to say anything ishappening unless I have the proof. And
(54:09):
that's what's so very very important.You've got to have an open mind.
If I shut my mind down andsay, you know, all mediums,
for example, are are frauds,then I'm not allowing myself the ability to
look at any other possibilities. AndRob, I think you even talked about
it earlier. There is so muchof our science we could be looking for
(54:31):
the trying to solve the UFO questionwith tactics and science that only we know
about it, not even understanding.So what's the difference between that and ghosts?
If you will, we don't knowall the answers yet, So to
close your mind off, and I'mjust talking to somebody who's a skeptic if
(54:52):
they were talking to me. Ifyou close your mind off, then you
don't have the ability to see otherpossibilities. I've got about two minutes left.
Something I wanted to get your feedbackon is why don't paranormal groups want
to share their findings with other paranormalgroups. I know as the next cop
(55:12):
and I know you know this thatwe depended on working with other agencies and
we were very open to sharing dataand yet to try and solve the mystery
of the paranormal nobody wants to shareinformation except you, guys. I think
it's changing in a sense when youtalk about groups that like ours or Elliott
(55:34):
has up in Nova Scotia and abunch of others z out there in New
Mexico will do that because we understandthe importance of it. I think there's
a lot of people that have personalmotives involved in keeping it to themselves.
And quite frankly, I think mostteams don't even look at this as a
(55:55):
true research of collection of evidence andexamining it and trying to find the answer.
And it's not a knock on themit's just not where their head's at
because maybe they don't think like acop does. I don't know, but
I think it's it's people, andpeople are selfish and people people want to
keep it all to themselves sometimes,and we've got to get away from that
(56:16):
if we're ever going to make headway. Larry, the time has come,
my friend. What I must sayso long for tonight. But before I
go, let our listeners know howthey can find out about you and your
websites and so on. You've gotabout twenty seconds and you can get ahold
of us and check both the ParanoralFBI with flod Beer Paranormal and Indian River
(56:37):
Hauntings at Indian Riverhuntings dot com.Check us out on YouTube at Indian River
Huntings two three four one, andcatch us on Facebook and both the FBPI
as well as Indian River Huntings.And don't forget his radio show, Paranormal
Steakout at www dot Paranormal Steakout dotorg. Larry Lawson, take care of
(56:57):
yourself, my friend, and youknow, say hi to the family and
all the great people at Fellsmere andVero Beach for me, and we'll do
that. Thanks for having me onright. Take care bady. That's it
for tonight everyone, I'll be backtomorrow night at ten o'clock is once again
we cross the time space continuum tothis place that I call the X Zone.
It's a place for people dare tobelieve and dear to be heard.
(57:19):
We're heard Monday through Friday from tenpm until midnight right here on Classic twelve
twenty and streamed around the world atClassic twelve twenty dot CA. So until
tomorrow night, just remember my thoughtsmy wishes are with you all, and
keep your eyes to the sky andyour heart to the light. Good night, everyone,
Ah, Henry. Welcome to theX Zone, a place where fact is
fiction and fiction is reality. Nowhere's your host, rob acconnell in the
(00:48):
AA. Mee, No, Ican't go back then in the end,
no, I can't go back there. I'm shocked at you to die.
(01:10):
And welcome to our two of tonight'sshow Here on the X and I am
Rob McConnell. We're coming to youfrom our broadcast center in studios in St.
Catharine's, Ontario, Canada, righthere on your hometown from Radio Classic
twelve twenty, streaming around the worldon Classic twelve twenty dot CA. My
guest this hour is Larry Lawson andhe is a former retired police officer who
(01:33):
investigates the paranormal through with his groupin Florida. Joining me now from Vero
Beach, Florida is Larry Lawson.And Larry. Great having you on the
show tonight, Buddy, Oh,it's great to be back. Rob.
Thanks for having me. Larry,tell our listeners a little bit about who
you are and what your groups do. Okay, Well, as you said,
I'm a retired police officer. Ispent about about forty years in the
(01:57):
job doing various things everything from patrolwork, a lot of time in the
investigative realm. Also as a criminaljustice educator. I ran the police academy
for this great region of Florida fora number of years, and through all
of that I kind of experienced somethings that couldn't be explained as a lot
(02:17):
of folks do in the law enforcementworld. And that ended up being us
creating the Florida your Paranormal Investigation andby continuation, Indian River Hauntings, which
is a group down here in Florida. And what we do is we a
investigate paranormal paranormal events, but wealso spend time teaching folks about it and
(02:44):
teaching folks the history of the areaas well as the paranormal history of the
area. Larie, when did youhave to have your first paranormal experience?
Was? I just got into lawenforce when I was working in the Dade
County Jail in Miami, Florida,just a young youngster is just barely twenty,
and I was working in the jail. I was not a guest there,
(03:07):
I was employed, and I wassitting in the control booth and I
clear as day saw a figure walkon the catwalk down one of the cell
blocks and I hollered at the guysthat were working with me. I thought
the lieutenant had come upstairs to catchhis horse around or whatever. And I
(03:27):
hollered at the guys that said,hey, lieutenant's on the catwalk, and
they went out and checked and said, there's nobody there. Now, this
figure I was not see through.It wasn't anything that drew my attention to
anything other than it was a person. It was a solid figure, but
there was nobody there. So thatwas my first real experience. Unlike a
lot of people that have experiences whenthey were kids, mine was a twenty
(03:50):
year old rookie cop. Did othermembers of the unit that you were working
with also see unexplained and all ofthat that they were afraid to talk about?
Well, and that's a really reallygood question. I found that the
guys, they weren't afraid to talkabout it in our closed little group there,
(04:13):
but nobody would talk about it onthe outside. In this particular case,
when they got back to the controlbooth, they said, lost,
there's nobody out there. I said, I'm telling you, I saw what
I saw, and they looked atme, just shrugged the shoulders and said,
this place is haunted. Stuff likethis happens all the time. And
they proceeded to tell me about sheetsthat were folded in front of the suicide
(04:35):
cell, the cell where we hadpeople on suicide watch. They talked about
the coffee makers coming on on theirown, all kinds of strange things like
that. So, while I can'tsay that they would have gone to the
shift commander and talked about it,it certainly was discussed in small groups.
But back in those days, yougot to understand, in our business,
(04:55):
you started talking about stuff like this, such for duty exam, and that's
the way it was back in thosedays, so you didn't really talk about
it outside your own little circles.How had it changed over the years,
Larry, since you were that young, nineteen year old sheriff's deputy in the
Dade County jail, you know untilpresent time. You know, you just
(05:18):
retired from a law enforcement agency whereyou were a detective, and was the
feeling within the department the same asit was when you were just a rookie.
Absolutely not. It's really amazing howit evolved over the years. Like
I said, back in those days, you just didn't talk about it.
(05:38):
Except within your own small little groupsperhaps, But I think it really began
to change when the TV show startedcoming out and a lot of people knocked
the TV shows, and some ofit's for good reason, but it did
bring an awareness. It did bringan awareness to the public that made it
a little bit more mainstream, andthen you began to see agencies being talked
(06:02):
about a whole lot more in agencies. In fact, it's gotten to the
point where there's a one agency inparticular in the Hawaiian Islands that did an
entire I'm sorry, Larry, noproblem, did an entire YouTube production of
all the hauntings that went on intheir precincts. The on Oahu, it
(06:26):
was Honolulu PDA. It was outthere, So that shows you how much
it has evolved. Now cops talkabout it regularly amongst each other, and
as you're aware, we're even creatingan organization involving law enforcement officers that are
also a paranormal investigators on the side. How has your experience as a seasoned
(06:47):
law enforcement officer as well as aseason detective help you with your investigations into
the paranormal. The way we frameour investigators really in many ways mirrors how
I would have conducted a homicide investigation. I'm certainly not suggesting these are homicide
investgations that don't misunderstand me, butthe techniques are the same. In other
(07:10):
words, everything is structured. Youconduct your investigations a certain way, how
you talk to people, whether they'rehere. On the other side, it
doesn't matter how you talk to people, your ability to listen, your ability
to discern what might be a bumpcaused by the air conditioner turning on,
(07:33):
or something that you can't explain.So it broadens your mind and allows you
to look at different pieces of evidencewith a more of an open mind yet
skeptical mind. You never you nevertake the first answer that's given to you.
In other words, a lot ofthe groups that are out to Laurie
do not have any formal training whenit comes to proper investigative techniques, proper
(07:57):
ways of collecting evidence, maintaining evidence, securing evidence. How what kind of
an effect does this have on theparanormal or you know, ghost research to
the societies that are out there,Well, it's a free for all,
to be honest, and that's notto say there aren't a lot of good
(08:18):
teams out there and a lot offolks with the right the right motives in
mind. But if they don't havetraining on how how how to conduct an
investigation, how to set it up, how to do the paperwork, how
to collect the evidence, preserve theevidence, then it just becomes a lot
of as folks having fun. AndI'm certainly not going to kick that,
(08:39):
but it doesn't allow for a standardizedcollection of evidence that allows you to come
to a conclusion and go ahead.I was just going to ask you if
if in your opinion that most ofthese groups are just hobbyists and you know
they're out there for the thrill aswell as to well, let's see if
they're really ghosts out there, andif there are, okay, super If
(09:03):
they're not, we'll try again nextweekend when you get a little bit of
both. Rob there's a faction ofour field that I refer to as paranormal
thrill seekers. And while that termupfront sounds kind of derogatory, it's not
meant to be. There are peoplethat enjoy doing things for a thrill.
I mean, why would somebody jumpout of a perfectly good airplane for you?
(09:26):
Exactly? They do it for Theydo it for the thrill. So
there are folks out there that certainlywant the thrill, the excitement of experiencing
something unknown, a voice from theother side, perhaps something moving, or
maybe even a full bodied apparition poppingup in front of them, and that's
the excitement, and that's a thrill. But not a lot of organizations look
(09:48):
at that in a sterile sense.Okay, this is the evidence put before
me. How did it happen,how did it occurred, what are the
factors around it, and putting allof this together to come to a conclusion
of what this really is. So, yes, there are a lot of
folks out there that are doing itfor the fun of it, and there's
nothing wrong with that. I haveabsolutely no problem with that as long as
(10:11):
they understand that's what they're doing.But there are more and more groups that
are starting to take things a lotmore seriously, and they're trying to expand
the scientific the scientific direction of thefield's going. And are they succeeding hm
(10:31):
working on it. It's a toughgame, rob because you don't First of
all, we really don't know whatthe phenomenon is, and anybody that says
they do are either fooling themselves orfooling you, or a little bit of
both, because we don't know,can't you can't see nothing's out there,
(10:52):
because people for millenniums, all socialclasses, all cultures, have been experiencing
something. So something is going on, it's what. That's something is that
we have to try to find out. And that's why we have to look
at these events with a sterile investigativeeye to try to find the answers.
(11:13):
If that's the direction you want togo, if you just want to go
out and get the bijeeber scared outof you, great, Why is it
that some people can have these experiencesand other people standing right beside them don't
experience the same encounter as the personbeside them does. For example, you've
get ten to fifteen people going toa haunted house, even if ten have
(11:39):
what they claim to be a paranormalexperience, and you've still got five people
and saying, jeez, we sawnothing what all the time? Yeah?
But what determines that, Larry,What determines who has the experience and who
doesn't. Rob If we had thatanswer, that would be the beginning of
solving this whole thing. I don'tknow there are theories out there, and
(12:03):
I caution there are strictly theories becausewe don't know yet. I had an
incident one time to give you anexample, and I personally saw this.
We were doing a historical tour ina town called Felsmer. You're familiar with
it, yes, and yes itis. My son Ryan, very very
skeptical, very very straightforward, nononsense kind of kid. He was taking
(12:28):
a group into what was the oldbank there and there was some activity going
there, and they took two cellphones and on the both cell phones,
one was a Samsung, one wasan Apple, and the question was asked,
you heard it on both the recorderson these phones, is there anybody
(12:48):
here? On one of the phones, clear as a bell, you got
a voice that came back. Hedidn't even need airphones for it. But
of course, but the other phonedidn't get a thing. M that is
true. What does that occur?And I personally, I personally witnessed this.
Now, the theories here would befrequency and vibration, as I'm sure
(13:11):
where we are all creatures that havedifferent frequencies and vibrations as part of our
being, and could that be partof it? Could it be the way
the calibration of the phones, thosefrequencies didn't match. Now, two things
could have happened there on only twothings. A it was faked or B
(13:35):
one voice was there on one phoneand one wasn't. For some unknown reason,
I can tell you, you knowme, it wasn't faked. All
right, everybody, Hey to dothis whole friend, but you and I
have to take a commercial break anexplanation. I guess this hour is my
good friend Larry Lawson, and heis in Vero Beach, California. He
is a paranormal researcher, investigator andin my opinion, a very knowledgeable historian.
(14:01):
And if you'd like to find outmore about Larry, visit Indian River
Hauntings dot com. The X Zonewith he Australia. Rob McConnell and larryloss
will return right here on Classic twelvetwenty after these short messages. Don't away
the right to say, I'm RobMcConnell and welcome to the X Zone,
(14:28):
a place where fact is fiction andfiction is reality. Today on the X
Zone, Bessie the lake Monster ofLake Erie from the time the ice starts
to break and flow on Lake ErieMonster trackers start their never ending quest to
prove the existence of Lake Erie's monsterBessie. When it comes to looking for
Bessie, internet provider and developer Dirkvander Plugue of Hamilton, Ontario starts his
(14:50):
electronic and physical search from his LakeErie cottage. Using a television camera that
is equipped with night vision technology connectedto a computer. Vander plug and his
group of dedicated Monster trackers around theworld spend countless hours watching computer screens in
the hope to get a glimpse ofthe elusive Bessie. At www dot Monster
tracker dot com. Spring through fall, vander Pluge and people along Lake Erie
(15:11):
shoreline continue their search for proof thatthe elusive and legendary Bessie does in fact
exist. Then Gay Orange and theShips of the Morning, someone who wish
(15:33):
they'd never been burning are the Gooseto the Game Away, saving away the
brig of the Goose to the GayBarn, And welcome back, every one.
This is the exte I'm Rob McConnellI. Guess this hour is Larry
(15:56):
Lawson and he is with Indian RiverHauntings. His website is www dot Indian
River Hauntings dot com. And you'relistening to us right here on your hometown
radio Classic twelve twenty and streaming aroundthe world and into the Great Beyond on
Classic twelve twenty dot CA Larry,we were talking about how come some people
(16:18):
encounter the paranormal in a group andothers don't. And you use the cell
phone example of you know how thingswork on one you know you had an
Apple phone, you had an Android, and one picked up an EVP and
the other didn't. There has tobe a logical explanation. Oh, I
(16:41):
agree, but what is it?And that's what we don't know. Now
you can also you were talking abouthow what people how one person can experience
it in the next next to them, doesn't That frequency vibration thing could also
come into play. But there's alsothe possibility of massosteria. There could be
people's people's imagination running wild. Thereare incidents where I've seen folks that believe
(17:07):
to have are believed to have psychicability, say oh, I see something
in the corner. Well, nextthing, you know, everybody's seeing it.
So there's a lot of things thatcome into play here, and we
have yet to figure out a fullproof way to avoid folks getting caught up
in that end of it, Larry, when you and your team go out
to do an investigation, how doyou do it? You know, how
(17:30):
do you proceed from the time thatyou get the call from a concerned person
that they really believe that their houseis haunted to the time when you and
your team saying, all right,that's it, the investigation is finished,
let's go on to the next one. What happens? Okay, great question
and starters. A lot of times, we don't do a lot of homes
(17:52):
for a lot of different reasons.We do a lot of commercial buildings,
we do a lot of businesses,but we will do home if there's a
problem. So I wanted to makethat clear up front. We start off
by first I have one member ofmy team make contact with the person in
charge of the venue, and theygo over a questionnaire with them that includes
(18:12):
things like, is there anybody therethat has had mental health issues? Anybody
there that's ill? Is there anybodythat's been abusing narcotics. We have to
ask these very sensitive questions because ithelps us begin to paint a picture of
what's going on there. We getto the scene. I don't want to
boy with all the little details,but we basically get there. I have
(18:33):
a person designated as my lead investigator, guy named Mike Maxwell, retired firefighter.
He puts the teams together based uponhow many investigators can show up at
that particular venue, how big itis, so on and so forth,
and then we proceed to go throughrotations. One group would go in one
area, another group will going theother area. At a certain time,
they'll switch and switch positions. Duringthose periods of times, they share information
(18:57):
with me at the command center thatI type into the computer. If they
have evidentiary stuff such as EVPs orphotographs, it gets downloaded into the computer
that later gets put into another harddrive and locked away. Once once we've
(19:18):
finished for that particular evening, anddecision's got to be made where we're coming
back. Look at this kind oflike a crime scene. You don't always
get everything the first time you walkthrough it through, so we tend to
like, if everything is seeming okayand we've gotten at least a little bit
(19:40):
of information, we'll many times wantto come back to maybe even three times,
just to see if there's something there. And let's say we got something
really interesting the first time, Let'smake sure it's real, we'll go back
and we'll try to recreate it thenext time and see if it can be
recreated. Therefore, it isn't necessarilyany anything paranormal, or maybe we'll we'll
(20:03):
get a repeat. So so we'lltend to go back to spots. So
we just don't go one spot usuallyand then don't go back unless there's a
reason for it. What has beenyour most haunting investigation that you've done.
(20:23):
Haunting, that's a great way toput it, because haunting does not necessarily
mean scary. We got called intoa place, little little shop, it
was a mystic shop, and wegot called there. My daughter happened to
be a cop in the town wherethat was going on, and she answered
(20:44):
a burglary, a burglar alarm callerin the middle of the night, and
one thing led to another. Somethinghappened while she was there, and she
said, you need to talk tomy dad. So those folks called us
in and we ended up doing threeinvestigations there. But to make a long
story short, at the investigated started off and it was quiet, and
then suddenly we started getting information fromdifferent sources. And we'll set up different
(21:07):
pieces of equipment to kind of triangulateor coroborate each other, for example,
dowsing rods, a spirit box,maybe a rampot, or some different pieces
of equipment in there. We filmeverything, I might add everything is videotape,
so everything can be seen and lookedat with a discerning eye later.
(21:29):
So we're going through this, andto make a really really long story short,
we started getting some information that wasreally pertinent. And we even had
and this was I've never been.We had a medium that was there also,
and this is done in a veryscientific, sterile way, so that
doesn't affect anything else. And Ihad airphones on listening to what the medium
was saying. It was confirming whatthe other piece of equipment we're saying.
(21:55):
We got a name, we gotan age. Because of my background and
crimes against children, it was achild we were talking to. I started
asking questions and I was able todetermine that what this child was saying was,
you know, she's a five yearold kid that died in possibly in
nineteen thirty nine. Very interesting.So I get my daughter to go check
(22:17):
and she they can't find records anywhere, because records back in those days was
probably just a suggestion. And shewent and talked to the superintendent of the
local cemetery in the town, andhe ends up calling me a day or
two later, and once again,to make a long story short, he
had some folks come down from thenortheast who were looking at another grave site.
(22:41):
This is before he even talk tomy daughter, and he got talking
to them about children that were buriedthere. And the guy says to the
superintendent, yeah, we had anothersome sure tail or you know, distant
relatives that lived here also, andthey had a little girl. Her name
was Belinda, which is the namewe got. She was five years old,
(23:04):
which is the age we got,and she died under tragic circumstances in
nineteen thirty nine, and Rob theytook us to the grave. Unreal.
It is unreal. And you know, we're working that right now, trying
to put those pieces together from crimehalf a century ago. More than a
(23:25):
half a century ago. May neverget anywhere. We're working hard on it.
But what I'm getting at is there'sno way those two things could have
been connected with each other. Andthat's the sort of thing that keeps me
going. So when you say haunting, that's it, because is there an
unceelt homicide out here. Yeah,that's right, So haunting that when I
(23:52):
when you say haunting, that's whatcomes to my mind. What do you
think the connection with ghosts and spiritsthat you and other paranormal investigators encounter during
the course of a of a casethat you're working on and the afterlife,
how does this connect? Well,once again behind the answer to that question,
(24:15):
we wouldn't be doing this, butthat that's there's three things that we
look at with three theories. Oneis the theory that these are spirits that
have somehow gone to the other sideand there reaching back. How that's occurring,
We're still working on it. Thenext Einstein talks about I think eleven
different dimensions. Do these dimensions blend? And with that you've got things like
(24:40):
the STACKTA I just want to writeout away the STACKTA theory, stack dimension
theory. Where it stood, they'reall stacked up and sometimes these dimensions crossed
and rob could it be us?Could could a lot of this just be
the creation of our ow own minds? You know, people say, you
(25:02):
know, we only use twenty percentof our brain. The truth is we
use one hundred percent of it,but we only know what twenty percent of
it does. So is it usthat's creating it? So how do we
connect all of them? Not sureyet, because it could be a combination
of several things. Let's say Einsteinwas right and there are dimensions out there?
Would that answer? Would that answerwhat the Catholic faith calls purgatory?
(25:29):
It's another dimension And I'm not surehow I feel about all that yet.
But it's a theory and you gotto keep your mind open to it.
And I don't know if I'm reallyanswering your question correctly. But we don't
know what the connection is yet.You talk to some folks, they'll talk
about you go to the other sideand it's a hive mind. Almost everything
(25:51):
goes in one spot, and whenit's your time to come out, you
you know, you come back toEarth. What part of the investigation do
you have problems with the different religiousphilosophies and how they see the para normal
or is that something that you andyour team really don't focus on. I'm
(26:14):
not sure I understand the question.Are you all right? Let me let
I'll rephrase it. That's my rephrasingquestion, Bumper, is the is you're
talking about Catholicism? A few momentsago. And and you know, the
(26:37):
Bible is filled with paranormal events fromstart to finish. Absolutely, How does
one's belief religious belief work with one'squest to investigate it to solve the mysteries
of the paranormal? Is there aconflict there? That's now, that's a
great question, And uh, yeah, I have. We've wrestled with that
(27:00):
because I'm of the Christian faith andI have no doubt that God and Jesus
exists in my opinion, So howdoes this all connect? And it says
the Bible scasire not supposed to messwith this stuff. Okay, But an
interesting thing. My father in law, God rest his soul, was a
(27:22):
Catholic deacon, very very religious,pious man, and I would tell him
about what we were doing. Hefound it fascinating and he said, Larry,
there's nothing wrong with what you're doingas long as you are doing it
for knowledge and not for personal gain. And he said, we pray to
spirits all the time, so tractfullythey're out there. So that's how he
(27:44):
took it. And I guess thatthe best way for me to answer your
question is I have personally found veryfew people that are offended by this,
even if they're Baptist, Catholic,or regardless of what religious their belief I
guess because because the true fact,the tact we're taking on finding out the
answers, Larry's standby buddy, We'vegot to take our break. Oh wow,
(28:07):
yeah, fifteen, You know,thirteen fourteen minutes goes by really fast
when we're deeply involved in a topicsuch as we're talking about tonight explanation.
Larry Lawson is our guest. Hiswebsite is Indian River Hauntings dot com,
and you can listen to Larry's radioshow, Paranormal Steakout by going to Paranormal
Steakout dot org. This is theX one and I'm Rob McConnell and we're
coming to you from our broadcast centerin Studios in St. Catherine's, Ontario,
(28:30):
Canada, on Classic twelve twenty ataround the world on Classic twelve twenty
dot CA. Don't go wave,we will be right back everywhere. Demons
dance everywhere, Southern Gales, Tannedseals and till the TI. I love
(28:52):
the and the way there's some lightplays on the way that mins fulter the
end I'm making she's getting excitations.Welcome back, everyone, This is the
(29:23):
excellent I am Rob McConnell and you'relistening to us on your hometown radio Classic
twelve twenty and streaming around the worldon a Classic twelve twenty dot ca A.
Larry Lawson is my special guest.He's a personal friend of mine.
Explanation. I've had the pleasure ofknowing this gentleman for nearly ten years now,
Larry pretty much. Yeah. Andif you'd like to find out more
(29:44):
about Larry and the great work thathe does, and if you're ever in
the Indian River area of Florida,you have to get a hold of Larry
and go on one of his tours. They are phenomenal, the best part
of work, you know, goingon any of Larry's tours, they're entertaining,
their informative, their educational, andyou also get a historical perspective of
(30:07):
the areas that you go into.So his website is Indianriverhuntings dot com.
And if you'd like to listen toLarry's radio show, Paranormal Stakeout, go
to www dot Paranormal Steakout dot RG. Larry. Before we went to the
break, we were talking about howone's religious beliefs may or may not interfere
with their paranormal investigative side. Andyou were telling us that your father was
(30:33):
your father in law was a deacon, and he gave you some presound advice.
But what other advice or how haveyou found the religious aspect of your
investigations team as it reflects to theparanormal investigation since the Bible basically says,
you know, like paranormal is taboo. Well, and now we can get
(31:00):
into a little bit of philosophy here, and there are people out there that
that feel so strongly about that thatthey feel that any inquiry into the other
side is just wrong. I don'tlook at it that way. And and
this is just typical of human beings. We all have different views of things.
And the way I feel about itand talking and I'm not Catholic,
(31:23):
but my father in law and Ihad some really deep discussions on this,
and it's it's what your the motivationis under. And while the Bible is
the is the word of God,it was also written by man for different
reasons, and I think we needto keep that in mind because man,
(31:44):
man, I've never known man tobe perfect so when they write things,
it may come out a little bitskewed. That being said, I look
at it as I am not tryingto tap into the other side to get
an unfair advantage in life. I'mlooking I'm doing what God gave me,
(32:06):
and that's doing an inquiry, tryingto figure things out. God gave me
a gift to be a detective,and that's really what I'm doing here.
Now that may be a justification onmy side, I fully admit that,
but that's how I see it.I'm trying to find out what this phenomenon
is and not one hundred percent surewhat it is. Is it us?
(32:29):
Is it the scientific theory of dimensions? Is there something on the other side
that's allowing folks to reach out tous just to send us messages. We
don't know what it is yet,So I think that inquiry is legitimate.
Go ahead. Why is it calledthe other side? Oh, I don't
know, Because this is possible ifwe're talking about Einstein and the theories of
(32:53):
stacked dimensions or stacked universes, thatif there is no other size, they
are they're existing with us on thisvery same level of reality, except a
different dimension. Yep. I thinkwe've all we've always taken this. Let's
(33:15):
go back to the movies. It'sjust there's always been the veil on the
other side. What's on the otherside of life? I think it's just
while we viewed it, I wouldtend to agree with what you're saying,
is there really any evidence that wearen't all existing in the same plane?
Right? You know? And togo off on another little quick tansient,
(33:36):
I think this is one of mybiggest frustrations about equipment in the paranormal field.
When and I am not smart enoughto figure it out. I'm putting
that on the table right now.But but there are so many intelligent folks
out there that have this kind oftalent. Why haven't we been able to
come up with equipment that would beable to begin to separate that? Well,
(33:57):
I think I've got a bit ofan answer there this, you know.
And it's just like Seth Shostak andSETI. They are using technology that
is known to us, and Ibelieve they're trying to find it find an
existence of extraterrestrials who are on atotally different wavelength. And that's why the
(34:17):
investigative techniques that SETI uses as wellas other astronomers, radio telescopes and so
on, are not finding what they'relooking for because we are looking for and
have everything calibrated for carbon based livingunits. But what what does it say
that? Where does it say thatwe know people out there have to be
(34:39):
carbon based? Maybe they're silicon based. So no matter what we're trying to
use to communicate, isn't working.Is that possible that that is the same
scenario when investigating the paranormal Absolutely,and I think you actually hit something right
on the head there. We constantlytalk about how can somebody travel here from
(35:04):
another galaxy? I mean that theycouldn't do it. We're looking at it
through physics as we see it todayexactly. And let's face it, one
hundred and fifty years ago, anybodysaid that we'd be flying in space,
other than Jules Verne, they wouldhave said you're crazy. Why because they
didn't have that knowledge then. Soit could be forty fifty years from now
(35:28):
we might have that equipment. Butwe have to do is we have to
keep working towards It's not going tobe handed to us. We've got to
keep experimenting, we've got to keeptrying out different techniques until something begins to
click, and one of these individuals, electrical engineers or engineers of some sort
may be able to eventually put apiece of equipment together using new technology that
(35:50):
today we don't have. So Ithink you've hit something right on the head
there. I totally agree with you. I often wonder, Larry, what
would happen if tomorrow some geniuses thatMI I t or some other great hall
of education come out and prove thatEinstein was wrong. How would that affect
science and how we look at theparanormal Wow, Well for starters, and
(36:15):
this is where and you get folkson both sides of the fence. There
are some folks that no matter whatyou tell them, they're not going to
believe it. And there are somefolks that say that no matter what you
prove to them, they're going tostill say they're right. And it exists.
The answer is somewhere kind of inthe middle. How I look at
it and how my team looks atis we're going to where the evidence takes
(36:36):
us right. And that's what agood investigator does. They take the evidence,
they examine it, and they goin the direction of what that evidence
says to prove their case. Andthat's where serious researchers have to be.
If you're so convinced that it exists, that proof is put before you that
(36:59):
it does and you can't see it, well, then are you really truly
objectively investigating the case? Of coursenot, that would just be like you
were wry when we were in thepolice force starting an investigation and already in
our minds putting the head cuffs ona suspect. Can I share a story
with you real quickly? Which issaid perspective? Sure? All right.
(37:22):
Most of my work as an investigatorwas crimes against children. I ran a
unit that was doing that, andI had a case one time where I
got called to the hospital. Iwas the sergeant in charge of the unit,
but I took a lot of thecalls myself, and I went to
the hospital. I saw this justdarling little girl. She's maybe four or
five years old, the biggest,blackest eyes you've ever seen in your life.
(37:43):
Oh wow, And I was sickand in my mind I remember here,
I said, somebody's going to jailfor this. But then I investigated
it. I backed off. Iinvestigated it. I looked at the evidence,
and it was an accident. Andwhat happened was the child bumped her
head and through play and the blooddrew. It drained down into her eyes
(38:07):
and it made it look like somebodypunched her lights out. That incident right
there, Rob woke me up.It was oh god, it was thirty
some odd years ago now, butit woke me up, and I realized
I can't jump to conclusions. Igot to look at all the evidence.
Based upon the evidence, I makemy decision. So, speaking about evidence,
(38:31):
old friend, in your opinion,as a former police detective and now
after twenty two years of investigating theparanormal, do you believe that there is
enough evidence that if you were totake the evidence at hand to go into
a court of law proceed as ifit was a criminal case, that there
(38:52):
would be enough evidence to give thepreponderance of evidence to you that the court
would say, definitely, there isproof of the paranormal. The paranormal does
exist based on the evidence presented tothe court this day. No, And
the reason being is so much ofthe evidence, while compelling, while compelling,
(39:16):
the way it was collected, theway it was observed, the circumstances
by which it was seen or observed, would allow, at least in this
country. I can't speak Forgetta,would allow a good defense attorney to say,
but what about this? And whatabout that? Because and I'm thinking
about it in my system here,you know, all the defense has to
(39:38):
do is put doubt in the mindthat's right, And we have not yet
reached a point where we can proveit to that level in a court of
law. And that it's amazing yousaid that, because that's my kind of
my mantra. I want to bringevidence to be able to prove to a
jury of my peers that the paranormalexists. Do I believe it? Was?
(40:00):
Sure? I believe that there's somethingout there. I believe that there's
something we can't explain. But weare not there yet where we can say
put a stamp on it, sayit without a doubt it exists. And
until another thing, I like tosay, tell Abraham Lincoln pulls up a
chair, sits down right next tome, and say, Larry, this
is what's going on on the otherside, and here's all the proof.
(40:20):
Until something like that happens. AndI'm being facetious, of course, it's
going to be almost impossible to doit. Now. I've seen things,
Rob, I cannot explain. Ihave seen things. You and I have
talked about this well, the caseI told you about a little while ago.
I can't explain how this is happening. I can't explain how people for
generations have had things happening from everyculture, every socioeconomic level. Something is
(40:46):
happening. Our job. Our jobis to find out what that is.
I'm so happy to see you andother members of law enforcement, like our
good friend Elliot van Dusen, whois a former RCP officer in Nova Scotia,
the dedication in professionalism that you andElliott and other members of law enforcement
(41:07):
past and present are bringing to thefield of the paranormal because it shows that
it's getting some very serious attention,and that the procedures and policies that are
in place by people like yourself andElliott are professional and you know you're following
the mythology and methodology of an excellentcriminal investigator. And sometimes I've heard it
(41:35):
say that you know people take theirinvestigations too serious. Well, I say
they have to be taken serious becausein order to find what the issue is
and what the quote unquote crime isand that being the paranormal event, it
has to be taken seriously and donein a very methodical and professional manner.
(42:00):
Well, thank you for that,and I agree with you. Let's put
this into even deeper perspective. Youknow, we do residences on occasion,
but that's what a lot of teamsdo all the time, of residences and
people call them in because of issues, because of problems. If that team
doesn't go in there and conduct themselvesin such a way that they can give
(42:21):
these folks at least somewhat of ananswer of what's going on, give them
logical reasons why something may be ormay not be occurring, and they just
go in there and they hear thefirst bump on the wall and say,
oh, yep, it's definitely youruncle Billy or whatever. You could be
harming the people that live there.All right, let's stand by way.
I'm going to take my final break. Det Larry ex onation. Larry Lawston
(42:44):
is my very special guest. He'sa personal friend of mine. I've known
this guy for over ten years now, and I just love the way that
he and his organization investigate and theprocedures that they take and how they're bringing
professionalism into the paranormal invent instigation scenario. And we'll talk to more mortal Larry
on the other side of this breakas the excell continues right here on Classic
(43:06):
twelve twenty. Don't know where shemust be. There is freedom within,
(43:32):
there is freedom without trying to catchthe w Jenni Baker car. There's a
battle here. Many battles are lost, but you'll never see the end of
the world while you're traveling with me. He now, don't dream now.
(44:00):
Welcome back if you one the xown has heard Monday through Friday from ten
pm until midnight right here on yourhometown radio, Classic twelve twenty and streamed
around the world on Classic twelve twentydot CA. Larry Lawson is my special
guest. He is the gentleman responsibleand in charge of Indian River Hauntings and
(44:21):
the Florida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation inthe website is Indianriver Hauntings dot com.
First of all, Larry, thanksvery much for coming on the show tonight,
and congratulations on your show, ParanormalStakeout And oh, something really new
your book Haunted Indian River County that'spublished by Acadia Publishing, is going to
(44:43):
be released in March of twenty twentyfour. Very excited about that. Once
again, if I know, talkingabout the history, I love talking to
people about the history, especially ofour area. So the book has a
lot of history in it as wellas the hauntings surround our area. So
I'm hoping folks enjoy it. Doingthis show for the thirty plus years that
(45:05):
I have larry, one thing I'velearned that if you have an investigation team
that does not know history within thearea that they practice, or that they
like to say is the area oftheir expertise, they know nothing history.
History is everything when it comes tothis. To be a good paranormal investigator,
(45:30):
you must embrace and love history becausethat's the only way it works.
If you're just going in for thebump of the night, Okay, you're
having fun, but you're not gettinganywhere. History is everything. What are
some of the paranormal events that youcover in the book It Haunted India River
(45:53):
County. Well, a lot ofthem are experience my team has come up
with. I mean, we've hadsome really interesting ones. Probably one story
this is not even an investigation wedid, but this happened around the turn
of the twentieth century. Back abouteighteen ninety five, there was this gentleman
(46:17):
who created who actually started the townof Sebastian, but it was called New
Haven. He was a pastor fromup north and a bunch of kids.
One day after he was tossed outof office for he was the town postmaster,
some kids were clamming in the watersaw him on the beach digging,
and everybody thought he had a bunchof treasure from the treasure ships that had
(46:38):
sunk along the coast. And theywent home told his parents, Now it
couldn't have been kids, Oh no, we just saw him out there.
No, it couldn't have been.Well, he had died the day before,
so what the kids saw. That'san interesting story. Certainly the Driftwood
Resort where Waldo sex and Waldo Sexonwas the guy that really put the town
(46:58):
together. He still hangs around thereand he crops up every once in a
while, so we talk about him, We talk about fellsmere My beautiful Fells
Mire and all the things that goon inside of the school. And if
anybody's interested, on my website,we've even got this on here under under
the evidence section. One of myteam members up there one day was saying,
(47:21):
this little boy that we identify asBilly, and it's just the name
we gave him. And on hisrecorder one night, we're doing the thing
and he says, Billy, isthis the room you like to be?
In? The clear as a bellrob on the on the recorder you get
a little boy saying, yes,sir. Now, there were no kids
in that building. It was itwas in the evening on the weekend.
(47:43):
There were no kids in that building. It was just us. So those
are the sort of things that wetalk about, and you know, we
we try to put an explanation twistto it if it's there. But it's
just so many interesting things happened throughoutIndian River County, and I would lay
odds most communities have interesting incidents,but I just happened to love Indian River.
(48:05):
Well, if I'm not mistaken,Indian River Saint Sebastian and that area
is called the Treasure Coast. Yes, yes, that's after along our coast
here we have a large reef thathas sunk ships for the last several hundred
years. But in seventeen fifteen,a Spanish fleet of twelve ships went down
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off our coast and strew so much. And they'd been pillaging Central and South
America and they strewed. There's somuch treasure out there that they still have
not recovered all of it, eventoday, even with mel Fisher out there
looking. And that's how we gotthe name of Treasure Coast, because after
a hurricane here, somebody's finding somethingof interest out there. So we're just
(48:51):
rife with history here. See peoplelook at Florida excuse me, sun,
citrus, fruit, beeches, DisneyWorld. But the history here is so
magnificent and so such an integral partof what was happening to our nation in
those early years. Just fascinating stuff. Tell us about some of the tours
(49:14):
that you yourself lead as a tourguide. Where do you take them?
Where do you take them? Andwhat's this feedback you get from the guests
who join you for these paranormal haunts. Well, if you first have the
general tours that I do are simplyhistorical ghost tours, and what that means
(49:37):
is I give you a history ofthe area. I tell you how the
area developed, who who are thefolks that were involved in it that I
walk them around and I only dotours and places that we have investigated,
so I will share things that wehave found, and I try to be
very very careful to tell folks thatI am not trying to convince you of
(49:58):
anything. I'm just laying out thefacts for you and you can take it
how you you so desire. Butwe talk about some of the events that
we've had, and there are plentyof legends around here. Also we do
it on the beach in Uau,do it in Sebastian, and we also
are out in Fillsmere on occasion.Now we also do other events where I
try to try to teach folks whatthis paranormal research thing is and what it's
(50:22):
not. And we do with severalof those events where we just present evidence
and we present people with information thatthey can make intelligent decisions. We tried.
We do not want to hype things, and sometimes folks actually have some
pretty fascinating things happen to them,and sometimes nothing happens. And the way
(50:43):
I explain it is, we don'tcontrol it. It either happens or it
doesn't. But most importantly the feedbackI get is thank you for the history.
The biggest the biggest pleasure I getis when I've got somebody that lives
in Vero Beach, have lived theretheir whole lives, and we finished the
tour and they said, I didn'tknow that. To me, that's success.
(51:05):
How do you deal with skepticism,Larry Well, I lived in I
was a cop. I lived ina world with skepticism. I understand,
brother, But I mean here,you know, being a cop is you
deal in facts all the time.Absolutely, but here in the paranormal we
don't have the facts to substantiate callingit real yet because we can't take it
(51:31):
in court. And I use thatas an example. So I want to
know how Larry, the person whois in charge of Indian River Hauntings as
well as the Florida burop Paranormal Investigation, deals with skeptics. Essentially, Hey,
(51:52):
you have the right to look atthings and feel about this the way
you want. I'm not trying toconvince you of anything. When I am
trying to have you do is keepit open mind. Now I've had people
look at me and say, you'rea cop. How can you believe this
stuff? You know, you dealin tangible evidence. And how I respond
(52:12):
to that is well, if Icame to your house to investigate a crime,
would you a rather me just comein and say, I think this
is what happened, because that's justwhat I think. Or would you want
me to examine all of the evidencecarefully go through it and determine what was
the crime and who committed it basedupon the evidence, after open minded investigation
(52:38):
and examination of evidence. And Isaid, well, obviously that we want
you to do that. I said, I would say paranormal investigation is the
same. Now if I was tosit here and tell everybody this exists,
because I said so, because I'veexperienced it, can't prove half of it.
But what I can say is toomany people over time have experienced too
(52:59):
many things to say that it's justeverybody's imagination. There's got to be something
to it. So keep an openmind, take the facts as you get
them, and then make your decision. Make you come to your conclusion.
You know, Larry, when youwere saying that you tell people you know,
you have the right to believe,I could just see you saying you've
(53:22):
got the right to You've got theright to believe as you're throwing them over
the front of your car. Andslapping handcuffs on them. No, that's
good. No, No, I'veone thing I've learned from being a cop.
Every time when I was on thejob, every time I thought I'd
(53:45):
seen the lowest level of human depravity, for example, somebody else would show
me that there's a new level.Oh, gosha. And what ends up
happening is I think I've learned tohave an open minded I'm not going to
shoot anything down unless I have theproof to shoot it down, just like
I'm not going to say anything ishappening unless I have the proof. And
(54:09):
that's what's so very very important.You've got to have an open mind.
If I shut my mind down andsay, you know, all mediums,
for example, are are frauds,then I'm not allowing myself the ability to
look at any other possibilities. AndRob, I think you even talked about
it earlier. There is so muchof our science we could be looking for
(54:31):
the trying to solve the UFO questionwith tactics and science that only we know
about it, not even understanding.So what's the difference between that and ghosts?
If you will, we don't knowall the answers yet, So to
close your mind off, and I'mjust talking to somebody who's a skeptic if
(54:52):
they were talking to me. Ifyou close your mind off, then you
don't have the ability to see otherpossibilities. I've got about two minutes left.
Something I wanted to get your feedbackon is why don't paranormal groups want
to share their findings with other paranormalgroups. I know as the next cop
(55:12):
and I know you know this thatwe depended on working with other agencies and
we were very open to sharing dataand yet to try and solve the mystery
of the paranormal nobody wants to shareinformation except you, guys. I think
it's changing in a sense when youtalk about groups that like ours or Elliott
(55:34):
has up in Nova Scotia and abunch of others z out there in New
Mexico will do that because we understandthe importance of it. I think there's
a lot of people that have personalmotives involved in keeping it to themselves.
And quite frankly, I think mostteams don't even look at this as a
(55:55):
true research of collection of evidence andexamining it and trying to find the answer.
And it's not a knock on themit's just not where their head's at
because maybe they don't think like acop does. I don't know, but
I think it's it's people, andpeople are selfish and people people want to
keep it all to themselves sometimes,and we've got to get away from that
(56:16):
if we're ever going to make headway. Larry, the time has come,
my friend. What I must sayso long for tonight. But before I
go, let our listeners know howthey can find out about you and your
websites and so on. You've gotabout twenty seconds and you can get ahold
of us and check both the ParanoralFBI with flod Beer Paranormal and Indian River
(56:37):
Hauntings at Indian Riverhuntings dot com.Check us out on YouTube at Indian River
Huntings two three four one, andcatch us on Facebook and both the FBPI
as well as Indian River Huntings.And don't forget his radio show, Paranormal
Steakout at www dot Paranormal Steakout dotorg. Larry Lawson, take care of
(56:57):
yourself, my friend, and youknow, say hi to the family and
all the great people at Fellsmere andVero Beach for me, and we'll do
that. Thanks for having me onright. Take care bady. That's it
for tonight everyone, I'll be backtomorrow night at ten o'clock is once again
we cross the time space continuum tothis place that I call the X Zone.
It's a place for people dare tobelieve and dear to be heard.
(57:19):
We're heard Monday through Friday from tenpm until midnight right here on Classic twelve
twenty and streamed around the world atClassic twelve twenty dot CA. So until
tomorrow night, just remember my thoughtsmy wishes are with you all, and
keep your eyes to the sky andyour heart to the light. Good night, everyone,
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