EP. 53: The Fate of Modern Pentathlon w/Coach Kate Allenby

Kate Allenby is a former British modern pentathlete, she won bronze for Team GB at the Sydney Olympics. She represents Pentathlon United an independent athlete representative body, representing thousands of pentathletes worldwide. Kate stands in opposition to the decision to only test OCR [obstacle course racing] and not any of the other apparent 60 options they considered in the teeth of an impending decision by the IOC to decide in regards to the future of Modern Pentathlon in future Olympic games. We have a conversation about her background and how she got into Modern Pentathlon as a youth, to her experience winning a bronze medal at the Sydney Olympics.

We spend the lion share of the conversation discussing the decision by the governing body, the UIPM, to replace equestrianism with an obstacle course racing discipline. She gives her perspective on the infamous “Tokyo Incident” from the last Olympics that made news.

Kate gives her perspective on what might become of the sport and the athletes in the sport given the changes, and what athletes can do if they wish to get involved in Modern Pentathlon.

Kate Allenby Twitter
https://twitter.com/KateAllenby

Pentathlon United https://pentathlonunited.com/

Pentathlon United Twitter https://twitter.com/pentunited

Pentathlon United Instagram https://www.instagram.com/pentathlon_united/

Facebook: https://Facebook.com/EventHorizon.Tv
Twitter: https://twitter.com/EventHorizonTv
Instagram: https://instagram.com/eventhorizon.tv
YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/EventHorizonTv

Support Us:
https://Patreon.com/Endurance
https://paypal.me/EnduranceExperience

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The intersection of endurance, sport,health, fitness, and life, challenging
conventional ideas and empowering people with thescience of self propelled motion. This is
the Endurance Experience podcast hosted by TonyRich and Etharty's under Way to preserve the

(00:21):
modern Pentathlon on fears that the sportis on the eve of a big change.
As first conceived, the event wasmeant to determine the best skilled person
and best soldier. The Olympic sportcurrently includes running, swimming, shooting,
fencing, and horse riding. Thatlast element, the horse riding portion,

(00:41):
is in jeopardy of being eliminated.Forty pentathlete signed this letter last November,
addressed to USA Pentathlete Multi Sport,begging them not to remove horse riding across
the whole spectrum. We had Olympianson the list, We had beginners on
the lists across the whole spectrum.Sammy Schultz who was at the Tokyolm BIS,
she signed it. Nathan Scrimsher,I believe signed it. He was

(01:03):
at the twenty sixteen Olympics. Nowone year later, participating countries are set
to vote on whether to keep thehorse portion and replace it with a Ninja
Warrior style obstacle course. It's goingto determine the fat of our stard.
There's a feeling among the athletes thatthe CEO of USA Pentathlon, Robert Stole,
has pushed for the removal of horseriding in favor of the Ninja challenge.

(01:25):
Almost put him as the catalyst andthe driver of this switch and change
of sports. Since he was onthe board of World Obstacle as well as
uipm's executive board, as well asthe CEO of USA Pentathlon, he's intertwined
in all of its Now those athletesare also calling for Stull's resignation. Now,

(01:47):
there was an incident during the TokyoOlympics that called into question the inclusion
of the horses, a coach fromGermany punching one of his animals. For
years now, athletes have been advocatingfor horse welfare. Rob Stole sent me
this statement within the hour, writingquote, the sports landscape has changed over
the one hundred years and Pentathlon mustevolve to be relevant with the youth of

(02:10):
today. Ninja obstacle style racing wasselected from over sixty proposed sports and a
year long process. The Ninja styleobstacle follows the military theme and is attractive
to today's youth. I know thereare many current and former athletes against this
change, but a global Congress willdemocratically decide the messages to our nations.

(02:35):
They all want to keep our spotsinto the big movement, and we have
understood clearly what we have to dofor the young generations, for the coming
generation that they also have the chancethe dream to fulfill. To be an
Olympic as a playground is something that'severyone can hang, everyone condemned, everyone
can go through something. Africans areso good in this, but I think

(02:55):
it's very big potension to get Africainto the game with a new business.
The sport of modern pentathlon consists offive disciplines swimming, fencing, equestrianism,
laser shooting and running. It's beenwith the Olympics since the beginning of the

(03:22):
Olympics and now it's in jeopardy ofnot being a part of the Olympics at
all. Those clips encapsulate the circumstancesof the issue. The governing body of
modern pentathlon, the UIPM or theUnion International Day Pentathlon Modern, recently made

(03:45):
a decision to substitute obsco racing forthe equestrianism discipline, and this didn't go
over well with most of the modernpentathlon athletes. Another decision is coming this

(04:05):
October from the International Olympic Committee.They will decide whether or not modern pentathlon
will be a part of the Olympicsat all going forward in future Olympics.
So there's a lot to unpack here, allegations of horse mistreatment, how we

(04:30):
got here, the role of theUIPM, did they do enough? What's
going to be the fate of allthe pentathletes if modern pentathlon goes away from
the Olympics. My guest today onthe podcast is going to help me unpacked

(04:53):
the fate of modern pentathlon. Sheis Kate Allenby. She is a former
British modern pentathlete. She won abronze medal full Great Britain at the Sydney
Olympics and she is the second Olympicmedalist on the Endurance Experience and she's now

(05:21):
a coach of pentathletes. Kate isinvolved with an organization, Pentathlon United,
which is an independent athlete representative bodythat represents thousands of pentathletes worldwide. We

(05:44):
talk about her background in what gother involved in modern pentathlon, her experience
winning a bronze medal in the Olympics. We talk about the history of modern
pentathlon and the five events, andthen we spent a lion's share of the

(06:06):
conversation about the decision to substitute obstacleracing for equestrianism, and she's obviously not
in favor of the change, andso she gives her stand on what the

(06:30):
UIPM could have done better. Shealso gives her thoughts on the Tokyo incident,
or what's being called the Tokyo incident, which put a lot of this
in the news. And this wasin the Tokyo Olympics where a horse was
caught on video being punched or hit. It didn't really look like a punch

(06:54):
to me. It just looked likea hit, but it was a strike
by a German coach for refusing tojump a fence. And so she gives
her thoughts on what she thinks wasbehind that. We talk about when this
change happens, what she thinks willbecome of the competitors, What are they

(07:19):
going to do, where are theygoing to go, how are they going
to adjust, and how is thesport of modern pentathlon going to refactor as
a result of the change. Andthen we finish up by talking about as
someone wants to get involved in modernpentathlon, whether it be the old world

(07:42):
or the new world modern pentathlon,how did they get involved? So the
very interesting discussion. And all ofthese athletes just finished up the World Championships,
so congratulations to them. And sowithout further delay, I give you
Kate Allenby. All Right, Iam on with Kate Allenby. Thanks for

(08:07):
coming on to the podcast pleasure,thank you for having me, Thanks for
the invitation. You currently coached thesport of modern pentathlon, and if I'm
correct, you formerly competed in wona brand's medal in the Sydney Olympics.
Yes, I was really lucky thatthe peak of my career happened around the
time that women's pentathlon got into theOlympic Games. So I was really lucky

(08:31):
to be on the start line inSydney because only twenty four women were allowed
on the start line to per nation, and it was amazing being the first
female pent athletes who ever have competedin the Olympic Games. Being a part
of triathlon for so many years incoaching. My thought was perhaps triathletes would
see modern pentathlon as another sport thatthey could potentially excel at parlay some of

(08:58):
their athletic experience into things like fencingand shooting and horseback riding. And so
I think we need more awareness ofthe sport over over in the States.
I think you're absolutely right. Ithink there's a lot of work for the
USA pentapon Federation to do to developthe sport more in the States. There's

(09:20):
no typical parth way specific that infact, the fact that it's a real
shame that it's not an NCAA sport. Yeah, in shapable, but I
understand the headwind. So I wantto talk about that. You know,
someone wants to get involved in tryingin modern pentathlon, how should they start?

(09:41):
And I want to talk about thehistory of the sport and come to
our understanding that there is a decisionmade by the governing body to substitute the
equestrian event with an obstacle course event. So I want to get some background

(10:01):
on that and how you feel aboutthe change and where you stand on the
change, and maybe if there's anyother impending changes that are forthcoming. So
how about We start with a littlebit more about your background, how did
you decide to get involved in modernpentathlon, and then also your coaching experience

(10:24):
in the sport. Well, pentathlonis not the sport of sort of sport
where you leap out of bed andgo I know I'm going to be a
pentathlete. There's a journey into it. And in Great Britain we've got a
great equestrian background, an equestrian sportsvery strong in our country, and so
we have an organization called the PonyClub which has a sport in it.

(10:46):
You can do any sport in thePony Club, polo, eventing, dress
our show jumping, and they havea sport which is a modified version of
the modern pentathlon with swimming, running, shooting and cross country riding. And
at the age of ten i joinedthe Pony Club and they said, oh,
you could do a triathlon, whichis the winter version where it's too
muddy to ride the horses. Sohere's a gun, go and shoot and

(11:09):
you can run and swim. Goodluck and off I went a couple of
weeks later to my first triathlon.Thought it was the most amazing thing.
Came home from my came home infirst place and thought, this is brilliant.
Go and get my pony. Let'sgo and do t Chathlin and so
and then I was aware in nineteeneighty eight that the men's pentathlon team won

(11:30):
a bronze medal in the Soul Olympicsand thought, well, if I add
fencing onto what I do already,I can be a pentathlete. And then
one of my people I competed againstone a silver medal at the Junior World
Championships, and I thought, well, if you can win a silver medal,
why can't I do that. Sothere's real inspiring comments from other people
that sort of set me on thisjourney into modern pentathlon. But it was

(11:52):
horses that got me started. Wasthat your strongest event of the five?
Yes? Yeah it was. Itwas one where I was generally fairly confident
hopping on any horse because as akid, I just we rode all the
time as often as we could,change horses, swapped each other's horses,
galloped around the countryside, had alovely time. You know. It's good

(12:16):
fun. Yeah, and sort ofwhat we do in triathlon. People have
will have one strong background or twostrong backgrounds, and they'll have a weaker,
a weaker discipline that they have tobring along. Yeah, that's hard.
And triathlon with five events, andthat's even I can imagine that's even
more challenging. But by the ageof by the age of ten or eleven,

(12:39):
I was already competing in four ofthem. So when I was sixteen,
I added on fencing and wasn't verygood at it to begin with,
but actually it became one of mystrongest sports. So I would say probably
during during the game certainly, andthose that era I was really well known
as a good fencer and a goodrider. So how things, You know,

(13:01):
you find things, and you know, opportunity comes your way, and
I always say take every opportunity youcan because you never know, you'll never
know what you missed. Right right, you want a bronze medal, I
think that is impressive. When youwere called back to that day winning the
medal, what stands out to youthe most? What stands out the most

(13:26):
about that day? It was itwas the amazing well, the Sydney Olympics
was an iconic being at Olympics.The Australians delivered an amazing games and for
me it was the first games I'vebeen to so I knew nothing else.
I think that the iconic moments aboutthat competition was being able to step onto
the track in the opening ceremony andsuddenly realizing the enormity of the Olympic Games

(13:50):
because Pentathan's a small sport and youdon't have a massive spectator following, and
suddenly you realize, well, Isee what one hundred and ten thousand people
in the opening ceremony stadium looked like. And so then we got on the
competition venue and it all felt very, very familiar, whereas everything had seemed
quite alien and new to you duringthe Games. But the standout moments words

(14:13):
of just I loved being in thearena at the fencing. I really enjoyed
those fights and the atmosphere. Butthat was mostly because so many specters,
British spectators and friends and fans hadcome out and there was just big sways
of union jacks in the crowd.So that was the fencing was brilliant,

(14:33):
and they knowing the riding arena thatyou know, they delivered such a great
event. Again, there were somany Brits in the crowd you really felt
like it was your place. Andthen by the time there were two of
us May and my teammates Steph,who won the gold medal. When we
finished the running event, because we'vedone so well, all loads of the
ossies folded up there Rossie flag andso the corner was showing the Union Jack

(14:56):
and suddenly it was just the cityof Union Jacks in the crowds. It
was amazing. But it was thebest part, I guess was competing in
front of your friends, your family, knowing that they've made the effort to
be out there to support you,when you know all the journey to get
there and all the years of training, you know you'd missed an awful lot
of things to get there. Butactually the appreciation went you were there was

(15:18):
just so lovely to have them allthere. When I was competing in the
Pony Club, I was in theGreat Britain team and we went over to
the United States to compete and Imet one of the girls on the US
team, a girl called Marybeth,and I was sat with sat after the
races had all finished and we're waitingon the medal ceremony and Marybeth finished in
fourth and I sat next to herand we sat and chatted and she was

(15:39):
really down because she was really sad. But in fourth places one of the
best places to be in the Olympics, but it's also the worst place to
be because it's the first one thatdoesn't get a medal. And I looked
at her and I said, Marybeth, I've known you since I was about
sixteen and seventeen years agold. Whowould have imagined that you and I who
were you know, young naive competitorsback then when we first met, when

(16:02):
we were sixteen. Now ten yearson, here we are sat on the
greatest stage of the world and we'vejust finished right at the top of the
sport. And we both looked ateach other and went, my god,
that was a heck of a journeywe've been on. And it was just
a real privilege to be sat withher, being able to have that conversation.
Yeah, and that was a reallyspecial moment and she's been a great

(16:25):
friend ever since. In fact,it was the British it was. The
results were one, two, three, four, brit American, brit American,
with Emily Drill in second place,and all of us have had some
We had a reunion in two thousandwhen the COVID times were all on.
We all met on zoom and hada bottle of a glass of champagne each

(16:47):
to celebrate us each other. Incredible. Yeah, And that's what I want
to get across as we have thisdiscussion with the listeners that this is an
important sport and there are athletes thatrevere this sport, and so having you
tell that story sort of sets thestage now as we get into the decision

(17:11):
this big change that the governing bodyhas made to substitute the question event So
how about we talk about this.So the history of this sport goes back
how long, say hundreds of yearsor is it fifty years? How long
has it? Sport's been in thegame since nineteen twelve, and it was

(17:32):
created by Baron Pierre de Kubita assupposed to be the Victor Ludorum, the
greatest all round athlete of the OlympicGames. So it was a sport created
especially for the Olympic Games. Andthat's the most enormous part of our history
is that the guy who invented theOlympic Games invented this sport for the Olympic
Games. And so it's it's hislegacy that we as pentathletes feel that we

(17:59):
carry and it's it's no burden atall because it's a real privilege to be
able to carry on that legacy.And that's what the athletes feel is that
Jakubatan started this sport and he chosethe sports, and who are we to
be able to change that right exactly. So that's impressive that this sport actually

(18:21):
started at the beginning, was thereason why we largely have in Olympic Games.
So this big change by the governingbody, which is my understanding,
is UIPM. Let's talk first aboutwhat went into this this monumental decision.

(18:44):
And obviously, if they're change,they're targeting the equestrian event. I suspect
there's some reason why they are theyare doing this. Was there sort of
backlash about the treatment of horses orwhat was what was, in your opinion,

(19:07):
the catalyst to the change. Soit's really interesting you look back through
the history of how all these thingscome to pass and actually this was all
going on way before the Tokyo Olympicsand the scandal of the Tokyo Olympics.
But you know, there's enough evidenceto show that this was all being discussed

(19:30):
before that. Whether they the UIPMplanned for it to happen in twenty twenty
one or whether the catalyst was Tokyo, I think it was in the planning
anyway. I think it was probablygoing to happen, maybe not this cycle,
maybe next cycle, but it wasgoing to happen. But because of
what happened at Tokyo, I thinkit was triggered early. I saw something

(19:55):
about this described that the thing thathappened in Tokyo that was publicized widely,
something about a coach hit hit ahorse or something like that. Yeah,
it was something's not going to gowell, guys, you need to do
something about your horse welfare. Butactually horse welfare is something that hasn't been
addressed in the sport for a verylong time. And the current president has

(20:18):
been in place for thirty years andthere has been He's changed, you know,
he talks about change all the time, and they's made some massive changes
to the sport. It's changed fromtwo two to air pistol to laser pistol,
to combined event, from a fiveday event to a one day event
to now this ninety minute format.But you look at the riding and it's
never ever been addressed and it's sortof The frustrating thing is that the athletes

(20:47):
historically have asked for the riding eventto be addressed. You know, they've
been protests before. I led aprotest back in two thousand and two where
they wanted to put in some newformat that was not safe for the athletes
or the horses, and that nearlycaused a whole bunch of athletes to be
eliminated or not invited to the WorldChampionships. But that was a pretty hasty

(21:10):
u turn when the president realized howmany athletes were actually behind not agreeing with
this, and things changed. Andthen there was another protest in twenty fourteen
at a competition where the athletes justsat down and said, but we're not
doing this because the horse welfare,horses aren't looked after property, the horses
aren't well, these aren't a goodpool of horses to use, and we

(21:32):
don't want you know, we don'twant to ride them because it's not right.
So, you know, there's there'sa lot of things that should have
been done historically, but what's frustratingis that the International Federation seems to have
gone down this path without addressing whatcould have been done and that's what the

(21:52):
athletes are really upset about, iswhat did you do to try and preserve
our equestrian discipline. It doesn't looklike very much and they's done this sort
of disappearing off down into a alleywayof this obstacle racing. But actually,
when you take a step back fromit all, it's not about the riding,
it's not about the horses. It'sactually about the commercial viability of the

(22:15):
sport. You know how many peopleI said at the start, not very
many people watch pentathlon and it wasit was it was incredible walking into the
opening ceremony and seeing one hundred andten thousand people look like but it's the
responsibility of the International Federation to growthe sport and they haven't. In thirty
years, they haven't grown the sport. The digital engagement isn't there. They

(22:37):
have so few followers on socials.They and so the IOC have gone to
them and said, you know,what's the commercial value? Reduced the cost
and complexity and the commercial value ofthe sport has to actually be something for
us to have you in our inour program. The athletes don't feel that

(23:00):
the commercial that that has been addressedit's been this big. You know,
we need to get rid of thehorses so that we can change everything.
But actually, you know that that'sbanking on the American Ninja Warrior audience coming
over into Pentathlin. What American NinjaWarrior is and that's based on people falling
off and failing, whereas what theUIPM are doing with the obstacle racing is

(23:22):
pushing people through to success. It'snot about failing, it's about success.
Which is is that the type ofobstacle race that they want to substitute with
its Yeah, it's sort of.I think it's styled on and American Ninja
Warrior and it's anyway. You know, the sport is well, is it
a sport or is it a TVshow? That's the first question? And

(23:45):
how big is the sport behind theTV show? Has it got a big
audience appeal? Has it got andare these people are going to come across
into our sport? You know?So you take a step back from that
and go, you know, dofences come into our sport to run us?
Come into our sport? Which peopleare the people that go, Hey,
I'm doing this sport and I wantto be a pentathlete, and historically

(24:08):
people come from equestrian or swimming backgrounds, but the obstacle races aren't going to
come along and learn how to doswimming, fencing, laser shooting for forty
seconds of ninja obstacle whatever. Andis the audience going to come across from
American Ninja Warrior where where it's aTV show which is styled for excitement,

(24:33):
for drama, for you know,interviews for people falling off equipment into great
big puddles of water. That's television. But is that going to transition across
into a sport? And then youcompare that to the likes of cricket,
which brings the majority of the Indiansubcontinent across as a commercial value to the

(24:55):
IOC, and that's what we're competingagainst in this decision. So it's it's
really depressing to look at what theInternational Federation could have done when you look
at the likes of you know,dressage, when Snoop Dog Tart starts tweeting
about yeah, and you know that'sturned turned the equestrian sport around, you

(25:18):
know done, and they picked upa normous amount of value from those sorts
of things and they've just given youknow, FEI have just given an equestrian
influence. They're part of a TVchannel on FEI TV. You know,
there's really clever things that they're doingto boost the commercial value of the sport,

(25:38):
and yet none of this seems tobe happening in pentap and it's really
really frustrating. Yeah, it's areal thing because you see we're marching all
on this journey to where the IOCare going to make a decision. Yeah,
and so you're you're you're saying thatthey're making it all about horse horse

(25:59):
welfare. What is their chief concernis because part of the sport is the
athletes are supposed to ride on ahorse they're unfamiliar with. That's a part
of the sport. Is that right? Correct? But why not gess what
the test is? You know,if we need to bring the equestrian test

(26:19):
into the modern world, let's makea test where you know, which does
bring audience appeal, that does bringaccess to horses. Because you know that
the pent athletes they ride to therules, and the rules are set in
a way that doesn't encourage them toride very often. And so the standard

(26:41):
of riding is getting lower and lower. Because the standard riding is getting lower
and lower. People don't want tolend their horses. But if the test
was changed where it was a testof horsemanship rather than ability to jump over
a jump, then I think youwould have a different standard, You would
have different points available. There wouldbe a better relationship between the owners because

(27:04):
the horses would have a better time. And frankly, horse welfare sits with
the International Federation that that's one oftheir jobs is to look after the safety
of the athletes, and they lookafter the safety of the horses rather than
a bit listed as a piece ofequipment. Right, yeah, so instead
of I mean, I I'm prettydecent on horse I can walk, trot,

(27:26):
canter, but I've never tried tojump. Amazing. It's like you're
flying. I would like to tryit sometimes. But I can see how
if a Norvist rider is riding ahorse they're unfamiliar with that, that that
could cause some some challenges. ButI think you're right, why not change

(27:48):
it too if it's you know,maybe dressage or even racing. I don't
know, changing the test would wouldchanging the test greatly change the fundamental principles
of the sport. Nobody knows,nobody's ever tried it, So how do
you know? And that's that's what'sat the crux of what the athletes feel

(28:12):
is that nobody's tried to make theriding more modern. You know, these
laser pistols have come in, they'vechanged the change chopping. Every games,
they chop and change what they're doing, which doesn't show which smacks of lack
of confidence in your product for starters, but also it doesn't. And so
if you're chopping and changing everything else, why aren't you trying to work with

(28:36):
the world of question in federation tomake sure you're nailing the athlete's safety and
horse welfare. Make sure your rulesactually reflect that you understand horses and that
you understand how to keep our athletessafe. Yeah, okay, And so
where do we stand now as faras rules and are there any forthcoming rules?

(28:59):
So you mentioned the i or Cas a forthcoming ruling. There's going
to be a decision in October withthe IOC session, at the IOC session
in Mumbai about what the new sportsare going to be on the Olympic program,
and boxing, weightlifting and modern Contapanare going to be reassessed for reinclusion
back on the Olympic program. Backin two twenty one, when UIPM came

(29:26):
up with this idea. UIPM,the International Federation came up with this idea
to remove the riding. The athletesall said, you know, if you
go to the IOC with four sportsand an unknown fifth, which was what
was voted on at congress, theIOC cannot include you in LA twenty eight
because they don't know what they're including. And the UIPM still went to the

(29:48):
IOC and went, we voted toremove to replace the fifth discipline, and
this is what you would like toconsider if you're considering the program for a
LA twenty eight. And the IOCpromptly went, well, we can't consider
anything because we don't know what itis, so we'll right yeah and that,
and the athletes were like, oh, we told you that was going
to happen, okay, And sothe decision in October will spell what's going

(30:15):
to happen with modern pentathlon in inthe next Olympics. So that's the next
Olympic right around the corner, Nois it. It's going to be in
Paris, It's going to be inParis, right with horses, Okay,
And so there's the question over whathave they done to change the rules and

(30:37):
to make the athletes more safe andto get the athletes in the saddle more
often and to keep the horse protectthe horses. And you know what if
they done there? And I guessyou know as you watch the lead into
the games and there or what theyhaven't done there? And then the decision
in October is for the LA twentyeight program. Okay, got it.
But that's where they're also deciding inMumbai. They're deciding what the other sports

(31:03):
are going to be trying to getinto the program. So that's the likes
of baseball, softball, cricket,tag, rugby, et cetera. Knows
what it's called flag football right right, Yeah, And that's why the NFL.
NFL players have said recently that they'regoing to if flag football gets in,
then the NFL players are going tojoin the teams or try to make

(31:25):
the teams. And you know,that's massive if that will be a big
draw from the American spectators. Youknow, your audience will rocket if there's
going to be a big NFL playerssuddenly in the games. Yeah, I
mean and when I learned about it, I said, wow, you know,
because we try athlone is big inthe United States. Yeah, I
think, I said, well runningswimming. You know, there's two of

(31:48):
the events there. If we can, you know, I think a lot
of tray athletes would consider, wouldconsider this as an option and would probably
actually do very well. Did yousee the pathway that Sheila Tamina took?
No Tin. Sheila Tamina was agold medalist in the ninety I think she's

(32:08):
in the ninety six Games as agold medalist, and then she went to
triathlon, and then in two thousandand eight she tried to make the US
pentathlon team and she ended up onthe in the team and she competed.
So she competed in three different sports, three different Olympics, and competed in
the modern pentathlon in Beijing in twothousand and eight. So it's a pathway

(32:29):
that's been trod before. Yeah.Incredible, amazing story, amazing athlete.
So obviously you represent the counter tothe governing body decisions. So if they
make a decision to change this tooan obstacle course, the question of event

(32:51):
to an obstacle course, what areyou going to do? Right? And
what is your what is your lobbygoing to do? So you represent Pentathlon
your I did an athlete representative body. I think over ninety five percent of
those athletes were not happy with thewith the announcement of the change. So
if they change it, what areyou going to do? Well, they

(33:15):
have changed it. They have changedit. At the Congress last year,
it was voted to put obstacle racinginto the statutes and so so now the
and they also voted for junior andany competition under the age of twenty one,
and so junior youth under nineteen,youth under seventeen competitions have had obstacle

(33:36):
racing in them. And they've startedcompeting in on Pentathon with obstacle racing.
But I think you've pent Athon Uniteddoes what the athletes wants and operates it
with the what the athletes want,and they the I think Joe Chung has

(34:00):
has made a statement a few monthsago saying I think there's going to be
a big walkout of athletes after Paris. So a lot of the current athletes
are going to leave have said they'regoing to leave the sport, So that
wouldn't I don't know whether they arebecause you know, if they're reaching Paris
and reaching the end of their career, they leave. If they're reaching Paris

(34:20):
and they might have gone on toLA, but they don't think obstacle racings
for them. They said they're goingto step away. So the massive generation
have said they're going to step awayfrom the sport, and then that leaves
some athletes below them who've been,you know, doing the obstacle racing.
This year's juniors and under nineteens andunder seventeens, and you know they're aspirational,
they want to go to the OlympicGames, so you know they're they're

(34:44):
trying to make change. But youfeel feel really sad for some of them
because there were some really talented riderswho've now had to sack that off and
go and learn how to do obstacleracing. And maybe they're not as successful,
maybe they are more successful, butnobody real he knows, because nobody's
really done it. You know,it's only this year that they started doing

(35:04):
obstacle racing. And you can seesome nations who had more access to the
rigs and the and the the trainingfacilities than others, and so you can
see there's a difference in level ofcompetition and level of ability. There's also
the competition rules aren't haven't been set. You know, they're still learning about
the competition rules. So before beforenow, it's said in before this year,

(35:30):
it's said in the competition rules you'renot allowed to take your hands in
any way, shape or form whenyou shoot. But the athletes have been
coming off the rigs with the handsripped, wanting to take them so that
they can put them into their gunbecause their hands are shredded here from the
rigs. But they've been told bythat in the rules it says you can't
put tape your hands, and sothere's some really tricky things going on there.

(35:51):
But then these athletes are the oneswho are suffering. So it's it's
really frustrating to see these young athleteswho are just can't understand. You know,
they they haven't had the time inthe training to build the carolt calluses
on their hands, and you knowthey will in time, but they were
being asked to compete in in multiplerounds of fencing. You know what three

(36:15):
you pent happens in a week,and their hands were shredded and it was
really painful to watch but you knowthat's something that will happen over time as
their hands build up the calluses.But it's been really tough for them to
jump into a new sport. Butyou were required to leap through three or
four rounds with really really saw.Yeah, that is going to take an

(36:38):
adjustment because when I see those AmericanNINJAA Warrior tape of obstacle course, it's
a lot of body weight suspension.Yeah, suspending your your own body weight
climbing. Whether there's somebody who wonor did very well in American Warrior who's

(37:00):
training to go to la in climbing, not Pentathlon. So why would ANW
people transition across with it. Youknow, they're a little bit older the
n W competitors, aren't they.Yeah. Now, as a coach,
will this affect you? Are youstill going to coach? Yeah? I've

(37:21):
got some some some of my athletesare competing this weekend at the Laser Run
World Championships, which the Laser Run. We've got the mon Pentathlon World Championships
this weekend in Bath or this weekin Bath, a little bit similar to
the form formula they use at theTriathlon World Championships, where you've got the
age groupers come in and you haveit makes it a big, big event,

(37:45):
big atmosphere, brings in spectators,brings in money, and then you
have the elite race in the middleof it, which is the pinnacle of
the whole thing. So they runage group Laser Run World Championships sort of
around the World Championships. And soI've got some under fifteen, some under
seventeens, a master's athlete, andunder thirteen competing this weekend, which is

(38:07):
really exciting for them there to beable to compete on a World Championships format,
a venue where the where it's anOlympic qualifying competition at the same time,
they're so excited about it. Butyeah, they a lot of them
have come from a riding background,those kids, and when the decision to
remove the riding came up, theyreturned to me and went, but that's

(38:28):
our best event. What are wegoing to do? And I was like,
guys, well, let's start offwith Laser Run and let's you know,
build it up. And they've donetrips to American Ninja Warrior play parks
and you know they're they're moving forwards. But until the decision in LA is

(38:49):
really hard to get them moving forwardbecause there aren't you know that they could
start training and obstacle racing, butthere aren't any facilities for them necessarily to
and train at locally, and therearen't any coaches because I'm not qualified coach
to be able to coach that sport. And until the decision about LA is

(39:10):
it a pathway they want to goon or do I want to steer them
in a different direction where they havegot a pathway. So we haven't done
an enormous amount of obstacle racing training, but they've had a go to see
if they like it. They've beentraining hard in the other sports and I'm
really proud of them to compete thisweekend. Yeah, and this is going
this is going to refactor. It'sgoing to refactor the entire sport. Sounds

(39:34):
like yeah, yeah, because youknow, because commercial value of the sport.
You know, you look at asports like sports like a question ism,
probably with the Global Champions Tour,with the in show jumping, with
the dressage circuit that is that's there, with the eventing circuit, with badminton,
the Kentucky the Rolex Grand Slam,the likes of those sports. They

(39:59):
can probably survive outside of the Olympicmovement, but Monpentaffen couldn't, right,
And that's the saddest thing of allis that we've gone down this journey put
obstacle racing bastardized our sport and westill don't know if we're necessarily going to
get into LA or not. Andif we don't get into LA, you
know, people will turn around andgo, well, one earth, did

(40:21):
we switch out riding for m Yeah, because the if the i PM were
the ones that went to the IOCwith four sports and we'll tell you what
the fifth one is. Why didwe even need to do that. Yeah,
that seems like it was a selfinflicted wound. It's been self inflicted

(40:42):
for thirty years. So when youask what the athletes want, the athletes
want to get rid of this currentadministration and bring in a group of people
that are modern, fresh, newideas, new ways of working, commercial
people with an ability to builds acommercial product, you know, to make

(41:02):
the sport, put the sport inits place. As to Cuba Town wanted
it to be as the main eventof the Olympic Games. You not know
the Victor Ladorum of the Olympic Games. It's not that is it at the
moment. Well, we'll have tosee what happens in October. But you
know, I'm hoping many of thoseathletes find the way. Some of them

(41:25):
will maybe will make their way intotriathlone if they don't want to, There's
there's pathways that they can go on. You know, yes, there's triathlon,
there's fencing. Some of them couldgo into shooting. You know,
there's there's different pathways that some couldgo on. But some might not have
that pathway because they are the ultimatemulti sport athlete that doesn't specialize. Yeah,

(41:46):
we've been gracious with your time there. So if we can maybe finish
up on something something positive. Maybethere is someone out there saying, I
think I want to try that.If you want to try that sport with
the understanding that it's currently influx rightnow, that's what you've got to create.

(42:07):
You've got to create a vision ofwhere people do look at it and
go wow, I want to trythat. And you see what you know,
the FEI have done the question Federationhave done by you know, putting
show jumping courses competitions on next tothe Eiffel Tower. You know at at
Kentucky they build amazing fences that youknow aren't necessarily as difficult as they look

(42:31):
to ride, but it just isit creates an incredible picture and people look
at it and go, wow,I really want to do that. And
this is where you know, thecurrent administration just have failed to see that.
This is how you inspire, thisis how you engage and those wow

(42:51):
moments of I wish I could dothat. That's what your average spectator wants
is they want to see somebody intaekwondo doing that amazing kick above their head,
or a horse jumping over something,or or like Snoop Dogg said in
the dressard, look how he's walking. You know, they want those wow
moments to engage those those different audiencesthat they've never said that haven't seen the

(43:15):
sport before. And you know itis obstacle racing going to do that.
Yeah, we're so. You know, just for people who who are unfamiliar,
how are the events, what's thesequence of the events, and where
is the obstacle course going to fallnow in that sequence? Well, that's

(43:37):
another interesting thing is that the sequenceI think it's going to go whiming fencing
obstacle racing laser run. Certainly thelast three are going to be obstacle racing
laser run. If you're bringing inthis new sport and it's supposed to be
really exciting and you're supposed to beyou want to create a really exciting you

(43:57):
know, people to watch it,it needs to go as your finale.
You know, coming up that rampat the end of American Ninja Warrior touching
the buzzer, surely that wants youwant that to be your Olympic gold moment.
But instead they go from the obstacleracing to the laser run, which
is exciting. But if you wantto bring in this sport to be the
catalyst for change, surely you putit as your last event. Yeah,

(44:21):
was a lot of work put intothis. It doesn't sound like there was
a lot of work put into orbringing the athletes in and having a united
confluence of opinions on this. Wellthe you know, if they've been talking
about it too. This is whyI said earlier that it was triggered early,

(44:42):
that maybe this was the plan froma way back, and I wanted
it happened, but it was triggeredearly because of what happened in Tokyo.
You know, if you want tobring it in as a sport, you
have this product called laser run,and you have another product called biath or,
which is swim run swim. It'sa shortened version of what the triathletes
do. Sorry, run swim run, and why not bring it in at

(45:07):
that level so that you've you've gotkids coming in at the bottom of the
sport doing laser run an obstacle racing, so that when you did that four
or five years ago, and thenyou grow it so those kids come through
and suddenly you've got something which isyou know, has has grown sort of
quite organically. But instead they've thrownit in at the top level. Yawn,

(45:29):
everything out of the water. They'vethrown it in like a grenade.
And that's why I think it was. It was triggered. They pressed the
trigger early, and it hasn't workedbecause they haven't taken the population of the
sport on the journey with them.Yea, And what do you make of
that? So when I just didsome Google searches in about the what you
call it, you know, theTokyo event that was captured on what did

(45:52):
you make of that? It justseemed like the the horse wasn't responding for
some reason. So you look,you step back from the event, and
you look at what was asked ofthose horses. And they were in a
warm up arena which was outside ofthe stadium, and then probably ten minutes

(46:14):
or so before their arena time,which is where the time they d would
go into the arena to jump,they were taken out of that warm out.
Warm up horses are herd animals.They will walk down a long corridor
into into a stadium. Horses don'ttend to do that, so they don't
have much familiarization on that, Andthen they were put into a holding pen
while to wait whilst the horse infront of them was jumping. Now that

(46:36):
when you're when you're preparing yourself foran event, you you warm up the
horse so that when you get intothe arena you're ready to go. You
don't walk down a long tunnel butspooky then stand still for however long you
stand still for, and then goin and jump. You want the horse,
you need the energy of the horse. You need the horse focused,

(46:58):
You need yourself focused, and youdon't do that by standing still for a
few minutes. So everything that wasorganized for those horses was unfamiliar and unusual
for them to for them to delivertheir very best performance. And then you
remember that there was no spectators inthe stadium, and also look around the

(47:21):
rest of the stadium. There wasan awful lot of spooky things for the
horses to deal with, and sothe environment was quite a challenging environment.
And you haven't even asked them tocompete yet. Yeah, and I don't
know what familiarization that they did withthe horses. I hope that they were
brought through that a lot, Butuntil that week, I suspect the horses

(47:43):
hadn't ever encountered anything like that beforein their lives. They've been to horse
shows, they've been and competed athorse shows, they'd been in all of
the equine environments where you compete,but there was a doubt there was that
environment that the horses had come throughbefore. So you can see already that's
quite challenging. Before you've pressed gofor a competition, before you've started to

(48:06):
jump really big jumps, and beforeyou've had any Olympic medals contested. So
I am not surprised things went wrong. So that from the athletes perspective,
it's it's not the athletes, it'sit's larger things that need that the governing
body should have put in place orshould put in place, not necessarily that,

(48:30):
Oh, it's just these because theideas that are these experienced inexperienced athletes
are just jumping on these horses andmaking them do trying to make it's really
difficult to get on a horse andride it for twenty minutes and then jump
a track that big, really difficult. And you look at the rules,

(48:50):
and the rules are set in away that don't encourage you to get onto
a horse very often. And soyou've got the rules set in a way
that it's more important in terms ofpoints and pathways to finals and things like
that. That's more important to establishyourself as an athlete in the other sports
before you get in the saddle.So you've got the athletes coming from a
place of they don't ride enough becauseof the way the rules are set up,

(49:15):
and an environment where the horses isfamiliarization and a normal way of usual
environment is upended, and you've gotpature cooker ready to go off. Yeah,
and that's the perfect storm of events. Yeah, yeah, Okay,

(49:38):
those are things that under are underthe control of the current administration. You
know that if you're paying attention tothese things, you know that they're going
to happen. That you know thatthey're they're red flags. And yet the
riding event hasn't changed for nearly thirtyyears. Yeah. Yeah, And it's
too bad that this is one ofthe founding events of the Games. And

(50:01):
the whole situation is very sorry andvery sad, and you know, it
makes me sad thinking about it all. But here we are. Yeah,
well, let's finish up and talk. If you could give some advice to
someone, how would they start?I mean, I've never seen a modern

(50:22):
pentathlon club or anything in the Statesor anything like that. How would you
recommend that they start if they wantedto get involved in what sort of modern
pentathlon? Just yeah, obstacle racingon one with horses? Yeah, yeah,
I guess, yeah, I guessthat's the real the real question.
Now. You know, obviously youknow, and you know trathlon with swimming

(50:46):
and running, But how does oneget involved in laser shooting? Laser shooting?
I don't know where I would startif I wanted to improve my shooting
skill. Well, I guess thatcomes down to the way the sport is

(51:07):
delivered in the US by the USin US Federation. You know, in
Britain we've got Pentaffon clubs and we'vegot kids who progress from Pony Club.
In the United States you've got theUS Pony Club. And why there aren't
any links many as many links sendingPony Club kids riders who were athletes into

(51:28):
Pentafthon, I don't know. Butthere are also in Britain we have Pentaffon
clubs which deliver laser run to kids, and you know there are I guess
they work as hubs. Britain's asmaller country. They work as hubs and
so they draw people. And yeah, that's how it works in the UK,
I see. And it just requiresyou know, swimming clubs to develop

(51:52):
a biathle arm to it, becausefrankly, biathle should be one of the
easiest sports to excess. Yeah,because you just add you just have to
swim and run. You don't needany specialist equipment, right, so you
know, attached to you know,develop yourself from a swimming club and add

(52:14):
on a biathle arm and then addtriapple which is and run shoot and bring
some lasers in that way, andor make it an NCAA sport so the
universities are funding it, or youknow, so you can pick up athletes
at university level of swimmers who maybehave done their time in the pool but
still want to swim, who canrun, or find athletics clubs who can

(52:35):
find kids who swam as youngsters andbring them bring their swimming level back up.
There's so many different ways you coulddo it, but I guess that's
a question for the USA pen tappand Federation. Yeah, okay, you've
been generous with your time. Ifpeople want to find out about Pentathlon United
or find your coaching resources, howwould they do it? Worthy web links

(53:00):
we we have. We're on Twitterand Instagram and Facebook. Just google Pentathon
United on any of those and you'llfind our Twitter handles and we've got a
Facebook page Pentathon United dot com toCody UK, it'll come up. I
will put the links to them inthe show notes. Thank you. Okay,

(53:23):
well, thanks again for your time. We'll look forward to what happens
in October. Yeah. Yeah,it's an interesting moment. Yeah all right,
thanks again, pleasure. Thank youvery much for having me on.
Thanks again to coach Kate alan bfor coming on to the Endurance experience and

(53:45):
talking about this issue. You canfind all of the links two Pentathlon United
in the show notes. I definitelyfeel for the athlete. If the ill
he decides that modern pentathlon will continueto be a part of the Olympics going

(54:07):
forward, it will be a partof the Olympics in a different type of
modern pentathlon. The equestrianism discipline willbe replaced with obstacle racing, and that
means it's going to be an entirelydifferent sport, maybe even different competitors.

(54:29):
The sport war refactor and who knowsif it will have an impact. If
they decide that modern pentathlon will nolonger be a part of future Olympics going
forward, well then that is iteven worse scenario where you have a sport

(54:53):
that has been involved with the Olympicsfrom the beginning is no longer a part
of it. Either way, thiscoming Olympics in Paris twenty twenty four will
be the last showing of modern penntathlon as we know it. Horseback riding

(55:14):
is a fun activity. I've beendoing it since the early two thousands,
just leisure recreational activity, and theyare beautiful in majestic creatures, and nobody
wants to hear that those animals aretreated badly, or were treated badly,

(55:39):
or circumstances rose to a crescendo wherethey were mistreated or the sport was driven
to a point where those athletes hadto spend less time on the discipline.

(56:01):
I know what this is like intriathlon. When you're doing a discipline that
has multiple sports, it becomes anopportunity cost decision. What do you spend
more time on in order for youto maximize your opportunity cost of time in
essential maximize your chances of winning.Now, the proposition from UIPM and some

(56:30):
of the other leaders, well,maybe we can evolve the sport. Maybe
we can try to get more peopleinvolved with the advent of the obstacle racing
discipline. Get people from other partsof the nation, increase inclusivity, get

(56:51):
people from Africa, get people whodon't have horseback riding skills or never exposed
to horseback writing skills. I get, I guess I understand that. But
you're talking about refactoring in entire sportthat has been there since the beginning so

(57:15):
I'm interested in hearing more from UIPMand their perspective. I did try to
reach out to them to try toget them on the podcast. I didn't
hear back, so you know,we'll see if there's any news that will
come out of this in October.Nevertheless, to the pentathletes of the world,

(57:38):
congratulations on the World Championships that justfinished up and this coming Olympics in
Paris. Regardless of what the decisionsare next month in October, this will
be the last showing of modern pentathlonas we know it. And if this

(58:01):
is going to be the last showingof modern pentathlon as we know it,
then my hope for you is thatmedals or no medals, you go out
there and show the world one lasttime and do it with pride, and
do it with enthusiasm, show themhow professional you can be at the sport

(58:27):
and at equestrianism, and never letthem forget the sport of modern pentathlon.
Follow event Horizon Endurance Sport on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, but training
programs and services. To become amember of our Endurance Institute, or for

(58:49):
a complete archive of podcasts, lawon to our website event Horizon dot TV,