EP. 57: Ultra-Marathon Swimmer Sarah Thomas

Sarah Thomas an American ultra-marathon swimmer. Amidst a cancer diagnosis she is the first person to complete four consecutive crossings of the English Channel and the first person to swim a current-neutral swim over 100 miles. She holds the world record for longest, second-, and third-longest current-neutral swims, and various other records in both fresh and saltwater categories.

• We have a conversation about Sarah’s origin story and how she got into open water swimming.
• We talk about her cancer diagnosis and the impact it had on her mindset, training and preparation.
• We talk about Sarah’s notable marathon swimming accomplishments including the Lake Champlain Swim and the 4x consecutive channel crossing.
• We discuss her thoughts on her legacy and were she sees herself in the history of marathon swimming.

About Sarah Thomas
https://sarahthomasswims.com/

The Other Side: Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBWTJzTIk9w

Sarah on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/sarahswims04

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The intersection of endurance, sports,health, fitness, and light, challenging
conventional ideas and empowering people with thescience of self propelled motion. This is
the Endurance Experience podcast hosted by TonyRidge. In the moment of stepping into

(00:26):
the water starting to swim, Iwas pretty much numb. You cannot think
about the fact that you're about toswimming English Channel four times. You just
have to take it into pieces andcompartmentalize each section. Michael, at the

(00:50):
start of the swim really was toswim until the sun comes up. And
I knew that if everything was goingaccording to plan, the time the sun
comes up, just through this halfof the night, I'll be halfway across
on my first crossing. In themarathon swimming world, there's a lot of

(01:18):
swims that hundreds of people have done. You know. You've got the Catalina
Channel, You've got the swim aroundManhattan, You've got the English Channel,
you know, and they're just thesecool, iconic swims, and you know,
it's fun to do those as welland kind of add your name to
the list. But it's kind ofspecial to be able to say that you
were the first to do something.I was the first to swim down and

(01:42):
back across Lake Tahoe. I wasthe first to swim down and back across
the lake Memformagogue. It's special todo something that's groundbreaking and that's never been
done. It just kind of capturesyour imagination a little bit more to have
that opportunity to do some new,to do something fresh, to kind of
break boundaries. My guest on thispodcast is Sarah Thomas, and as you

(02:09):
heard from that intro, she isthe first person to swim the English Channel
four times without stopping. She's anendurance athlete, a committed coach, a
keynote speaker, and also a cancersurvivor and actually got a diagnosis during the

(02:32):
preparation process for that monumental endeavor.There have been many people on this podcast
that have done phenomenal things and everythingfrom Olympians and Olympic medalists to amateur athletes
that I've done phenomenal feats of endurance, but I gotta admit this probably is

(02:55):
among the top, certainly out ofall of the non professional athletes. I
mean, she's done an incredible thingon her own time and being a working
individual, so that just frames howincredible this accomplishment was And the thing is,

(03:23):
the four time English Channel swim isreally only one of her notable swims.
She's done Lake Powell eighty miles swim, She's done Lake Champlain one hundred
and four point six miles swim,She's done Double Lake I'm not even going

(03:46):
to try to pronounce that word,fifty miles me Framagogue and the Manhattan Isle
Island Marathon swim twenty eight and ahalf miles, among many other notable swims.
So we talk about her origin story, and I asked Sarah how she

(04:11):
got into swimming and open water swimmingand what was her inspiration, and we
deep dive into some of her notableswims like Lake Champlain and some of the
other big accomplishments, and then wetalk about the cancer diagnosis and her treatment

(04:38):
and how that changed, if atall, her mindset and her training and
physical conditioning. And then we talkabout the English Channel four way swim,
and she at a high level,takes us through each of the four laps

(04:59):
of the English Channel four way,and I talk about legacy and does she
think about her legacy as a marathonswimmer, And we had a couple of

(05:19):
fun exchanges about Diana and IAD andwhether or not uh, she had an
opinion on Diana and IAD that wasfunny and interesting. But also I asked
Sarah, when they make the movieabout her in her life, who would
play her? So we had agreat conversation, a fun uh conversation and

(05:45):
interesting and it was just great tomarvel at Sarah and what she's done in
her accomplishments. She's still out theredoing it, still out there swimming,
still out there coaching, coaching masters. I'll be sure to drop in and
meet her and her husband when Igo out there in Colorado, drop in
on her master's team. And ofcourse you could catch her on a website

(06:11):
Sarah thomasswims dot com in case youwant to book Sarah for a speaking engagement
or coaching. So I hope youenjoy this conversation. It's fun. Without
further delay, I give you SarahThomas. All right, I am on

(06:40):
with Sarah Thomas. Thanks for comingon to the podcast. Hi, thanks
for having me excited to chat.All right. So I've been for the
past week or so researching and doinga lot of reading about some of your
devors, and it's good to beon with an aqua woman herself. Yeah,

(07:08):
surprise, maker's not wet. Doyou talk to fish too, yep,
I sure do. So I'm readingyou know, I watched your documentary.
So you have a documentary the otherside out there on YouTube. I
watched it pretty amazing. I recommendeveryone watch it out actually posted in the

(07:30):
show notes. So for those peoplethat don't know Sarah, I'm just going
to read the top of her WikipediaWikipedia. You never know if it's one
hundred percent right, but you'll tellme. It says she is the first
person to complete four consecutive crossings ofthe English Channel and the first person to

(07:50):
swim a current neutral swim over onehundred miles. She holds the world record
for longest, second and third longestcurrent neutral swims, and the various other
records in both fresh and saltwater categories. Is that right? Yeah, it

(08:13):
seems about right. I think.Wow. So yeah, there's a lot
of things that I want to talkto you about. I want to talk
to you about your you know,some of your notable swims, including the
you know, the Lake Lake Champlain'swhim and of course the four four Way

(08:37):
Channel crossing, and you know you'vehad some setbacks with the cancer diagnosis as
well, and I want to talkabout that and how that impacted your treatment
and also your training, and youknow where do you think your legacy is

(08:58):
in the marathon swimming world world.But before that, let's dive into your
origin story a little bit and ifyou can describe for our listeners your swimming
experience and then how you got intoopen water swimming and what was the primary
inspiration. Sure, let's see her. I think that I learned how to

(09:22):
swim about the same time I waslearning how to walk. So I feel
like water has always been like inmy blood, if you will. I
kind of like first remember swim lessonsprobably when I was like five or six,
and then like just begging my parentsif I could be on the swim
team. Like I don't know whatit was about being a young child and

(09:43):
like desperately wanting to be on theswim team. But I did so,
I, you know, swam onthe summer league team for a couple of
years. And then I think mymom like blew my mind when she told
me that there was a year roundswim team that I could do. She's
like, I know, you likeswimming, do you want to do it
all the time time? And Iwas like, yeah, that sounds amazing.

(10:03):
So I basically swam like all throughelementary school, all through high school.
I swam at the University of Connecticutin college, so Yukon, Yeah,
Yukon Go Huskies, and yeah,I just I loved I loved swimming,
I loved training, I loved allof those things. But I'm just

(10:24):
like pretty average pool swimmer. Igrew up in Texas, where swimming is
super duper competitive, so I was, you know, a decent swimmer in
Texas, but like, I'm justgoing to get a scholarship anywhere, you
know, to a D one school, and so I don't know. I
had to like make a choice atthe end of high school, like do

(10:46):
I keep doing this thing or doI stop? And there was just something
in me that said, like there'sstill more left for me in the water.
So I walked on at Yukon,no scholarship or anything like that.
Swam all four years you know,highs and lows, and when I graduated,
I thought I was retired from thesport of swimming. Moved to Denver

(11:07):
for grad school and joined like anadult masters swim team, and I had
not been doing that very long,and some of my new like teammates were
like, Sarah, you gotta doopen water. And it was something I
had never really thought about. Youknow, I grew up in Texas.
The lakes near Dallas are not quitedelightful, so it doesn't they don't like

(11:30):
scream like swim in me the waythat some of the lakes here in Colorado
do. And so I took somelike coercion and you know, I had
to like stew on it, butthey talked to me into signing up for
a ten k open water swim outsideof Fort Collins. And so I did
my very very first open water swimminginto open water swim in two thousand and

(11:50):
seven, and I did. Ijust completely totally fell in love with open
water swimming. It just took oneand I was like, all right,
this is what I should have beendoing all of these years. I'm done
with the pool. Like, giveme these lakes because this is where the
fun is really at. Yeah,I mean swimming inside of a concrete box.

(12:13):
When you finally get out in openwater, it's nice, but there's
a fear element though that people have. Did you not have that fear element
at all. You know. Ithink if I was swimming, if I
had started like in the ocean,or even a lake in Texas where it's

(12:35):
murky and you don't know if there'ssnakes coming for you, I think that
would have increased the fear factor alittle bit. But the lakes here in
Colorado are pretty chill, not aton of like wildlife to be concerned about.
They're clean, they're clear, SoI think that made it a little
bit easier to like take that leapand just like, oh gosh, this

(12:58):
is actually just really pretty. Yeahwow. And what were your events when
you swam at Yukon. I wasalways a distant swimmer, but yeah,
thousand mile all of those. Inhigh school, I swam brushstroke and it
just kind of got away from it. I hit started hitting the exact same
time repeatedly for years. I couldn'tget any faster, and my coaches were

(13:20):
like, let's try something different,Sarah, that sounds great. Yeah wow,
in the distance you were a NewEngland. Yeah, it's too bad
we didn't keep you over here inNew England. We could have used the
winters in New England. I said, I cannot do this anymore. Texas
Girl to Connecticut was not a goodtransition if you just make it past January

(13:46):
and February. Elis the two thatgets you. Yeah, they sure do.
Okay, So wow, And sowhen you did that ten K,
that was it. You were hookedon open water. Wow. And you
know, just looking at some ofthe things that you've done, man,

(14:07):
it's just the the adjectives don't doit justice. You need new words to
describe. Uh, you know,it's just, you know, the the
four way I think might be thethe greatest endurance accomplishment and anyone's ever done.

(14:31):
I mean, I can't think ofit. I mean, there's marathonors
that you know, run for daysand such, but we're not humans are
not evolved to swim. To spendthat much time in the water, it's
just absolutely incredible. So let's talkabout some of the swims. So there's

(14:52):
the Lake Champlain swim that you did, But what were what were some of
the big swims that you did beforefor up to Lake Champlain. Sure,
so I'll say, you know,I started in two thousand and seven with
the ten K, did that fora few years and was like, I
need to go farther so I kindof jumped from that ten k distance to

(15:16):
doing things like the Catalina Channel,which is about twenty miles, and like
the English Channel is about twenty miles. So I kind of hung out in
that like twenty mile range, didthose types of more like traditional marathon swimming
swims to start, and then kindof in twenty twelve, I remember like
standing on the shore in France havingjust swum the English Channel, and I'm

(15:39):
like looking back and I'm like,I think I can go farther, Like
I think I could swim back toEngland right now, And so that's kind
of where things escalated rather quickly.So I was like, Okay, if
I could swim back right now,what else can I do? That's like
forty miles And we start get tolike forty mile fifty miles swims. There's
like not a lot of people doingthat, and people are kind of like,

(16:03):
what is wrong with you? Soin twenty thirteen I swam down and
back across Lake Tahoe, and thenlike six or seven weeks later I went
down and back across like mempher Magague, which was in Vermont in Canada.
And those were like two swims thatlike people had tried to do a double

(16:25):
crossing of before and like had failed, and like in the case of Tahoe,
people are like it's too cold andit's too high, like no one
could ever do this without like killingthemselves. And I did both of those
and they were fun, and Idon't know, like it just like being
able to be like, man,I just swam fifty miles. What else

(16:47):
can I do? You know,Like that's kind of a weird way to
like flip flop yourself. So Idid those in twenty thirteen and then it
was still I was like, Okay, I want to do more. And
so then in toowenty and sixteen,I did eighty miles across Lake Powell,
which is in Arizona and Utah.And when I did the eighty miles swim,

(17:08):
like that was the longest swim everwithout a current, and so that
it was crazy because you like togo from fifty miles to eighty miles,
like, oh, it's easy tosay like fifty to eighty, but like
thirty miles is a real long wayto swim. So it was you know,
if I think about like one ofthe hardest things I've ever done,

(17:29):
it was definitely that Lake Powell swimin twenty sixteen, because there was just
so much unknown to it. Didn'tknow if I was training right. You
know, it was a record fordistance at the time, so like going
into like uncharted territory and like nothaving a clue how my body was going
to react to two full nights oflike not sleeping, you know. Just

(17:51):
it was a mind altering experience ina lot of ways. Right, And
so then you know, coming outof Lake Powell, you know, I
think it was a fit six hoursswim, and like the very next day,
I was like I had more leftin the tank, Like I think
I could have gone farther. Andso that's where the Lake Champlain swim came
from. Was Okay, eighty mileswasn't far enough, Like all right,

(18:15):
let's double down, Let's add anothertwenty miles to get over one hundred.
Yeah, like no one's ever brokenone hundred miles before. Let's go,
and so we did. Yeah,And if people are not familiar with Lake
Champlain, so this is basically thelake that sort of bifurcates Vermont and New

(18:37):
York, goes all the way upto Canada, and you swam it what
south to north we did kind ofSo my original plan for Lake Champlain was
to go from south to north andswim the entire length of it. That's
what the dream was when I waslooking at it. We started to do
some research into the lake and foundthat there is potentially a slight current that

(19:03):
goes from south to north, andif I wanted to claim it as a
current neutral swim, we were worriedthat there would be like a perception of
a current that assisted me. Sowe actually started pretty far north, almost
in Canada, and I did kindof an out and back loop. So
you started north, I swam,you know, a little over fifty miles

(19:25):
down, looped a little island,and then we went back up the way
we came. So we made onehundred miles non stop. Me I never
got out of the water, nevertouched the ground, nothing like that.
So it wasn't quite the like dreamof like crossing the lake that I wanted,
But we did want to make surethat it was considered a current neutral
swim, so if you go outand back, you can't claim that you
got a current, right, Andand that went down as the first human

(19:52):
to complete that swim correct yes,yeah, wow, and still the only
no one's ever gone over one hundredmiles yet. So and that was in
twenty seventeen, so it's been aminute. Yeah wow. And then so
that's just just sit with that fora minute. That's yeah. Again,

(20:14):
it's you know, words can't justdescribe how incredible that is, so you
know, and that's that's when youstarted thinking about more like doing the channel
multiple ways. And but before that, that's when you got the diagnosis of

(20:34):
the cancer diagnosis. How did thatmake you feel? You and your husband?
And then you did you doubt thatyou could still swim at that point?
Yeah, so you know, Ifinished Lake Champlain in August of twenty
seventeen. The four Way English Channelwas actually already like booked. There's a

(21:00):
wait list to swim the English Channeland then if you're wanting to go real
far, you need a really bigwindow. And so the wait it was,
I think I had to wait abouttwo and a half maybe three years
for my English Channel slot. SoI'm swimming in Lake Champlain in twenty seventeen.
I already have the four Way EnglishChannel booked right, like it's planned.

(21:22):
I've paid a deposit, like weknow that that is what is coming
next. In twenty nineteen, soI had like two years in between Lake
Champlain and the English Channel swim,and so you know, I was in
the middle of like trying to plantwenty eighteen, right, like I'm booking
all these swims that I think canlike help me prepare for the four way.

(21:45):
You know, I'm like like firedup, like ready to go,
Like Okay, what am I goingto do to get ready for this like
monster of a swim in two years? But then in November of twenty seventeen,
so August was the end of likeChamplain and then I'm in November I
was diagnosed with breast cancer. Definitelycame out of the blue, very unexpected,

(22:08):
right, like no family history.I was thirty five years old,
otherwise healthy, Like that is notsomething that you think is gonna happen shape
yeah, sh yeah. It's likehow does this like like how does it
happen? Right? And it's alot to like wrap your brain around.

(22:29):
You know. I found the lumpon my own. You know, I
went to my like regular doctor andlike God bless her, she was like,
Sarah, you need follow up now. A lot of times women of
my age, Like you find alump, they tell you just like to
wait and they assume it's just assistor something very benign, and people wait
too long and it can really escalateinto something yeah, really terrible. And

(22:53):
I'm so I'm really glad for thatdoctor who was like, this is a
big deal. You need to getthis checked out. What's age it was?
I was staged two, so Ihad like two tumors, and then
I had some like cancer in oneof my limp nodes in my armpits,
so like basically three three tumors.It was something called triple negative breast cancer,

(23:18):
which means it's not hormonal. Ithas the like highest rate of recurrence,
and like the survival rate is onlylike seventy six somewhere between sixty and
seventy percent compared to like other breastcancers that have a much higher survival rate.
So it's like really terrifying. Likeyour tip top shape, you're like
on top of the world. You'vejust done this crazy swim, You've got

(23:40):
another one coming up, and thenlike all of a sudden, like you're
getting chemo, you're going through surgeries, you're getting radiation, and the doctors
like really don't know. When youask them like, hey, can I
swim eighty miles next year? They'relike, that is a weird question known
has ever asked me that before?And we didn't so we had no idea,

(24:04):
right, like am I going torespond to treatment? Will it take
away my you know, endurance abilityto keep swimming? Like it was just
a whole bunch of unknown And that'sreally scary. It goes on in the
frontal everything that with swimming body yourarms right acts, yes, everything that

(24:25):
goes on up front yep. Andthat's I don't know how much people want
to know about having a mastectomy,but it's not a good time and what
they do. You have choices,but like the most common thing that people
do is you so you have amistectomy and then if you have reconstruction,

(24:47):
they put your breast in plant underneathyour peck muscle, and so that completely
alters so much of swimming, right, Like you use your pecks predominantly,
and now all of a sudden,I've got something that's like pulling and stretching
my peck muscle in a very unnaturalway. And the surgeons like literally they're

(25:07):
like, we don't know, Likewe don't have anything to compare you to.
We don't know how it's going toimpact your swimming. Like you could
be fine, it could not befine. We don't know, And that's
really terrifying when someone just tells you, we don't know, We're just gonna
have to wait and see. Andso, did you find in the end
that that impacted your strength? Yeah, I would say, you know,

(25:30):
so I had my misectomy in May, so and then I had to go
through radiation, which also messes upmore things than you can even comprehend.
So kind of between May and theend of August, I was trying to
swim as much as I could.It was really hard after you haven't mistexted

(25:52):
me. I couldn't raise my armover my shoulder for I think four weeks,
and I couldn't swim for about eightweeks. And so that's really hard
motion to like relearn basically after youhaven't done it for eight weeks and after
you've had a lot of physical changesto your chest. So like getting back
into it was really hard, reallypainful. You know. I had to

(26:15):
start with just like kicking and tryingto just like even just getting my arms
over my head was hard. So, I mean it was it was a
major challenge getting back into it.Yeah, I can't even like it's hard
to describe like what it felt liketo just Okay, I'm in the pool,
I'm floating, but my arms don'twork right. And so I did.

(26:40):
I had to kind of relearn alittle bit of my stroke technique.
Even to this day, my rightarm is a little wonky. I definitely
lost some range of motion, definitelylost some strength and some power, and
you know, and I knew allof that, and you know, I'm
finishing radiation and there's like a yearbetween when I finished all my cancer treatment
and when I'm signed up to someEnglish channel and they make you kind of

(27:04):
pay half of your fee a yearout. And so I remember the English
Channel boat captain emailing me and he'sfollowed on Facebook, so he knows what
I'm going through. And he's like, I hate to ask you this,
but like are you still coming?Yeah? And It's like, yeah,
I'm coming. But I didn't know, you know, like I had I

(27:25):
had a year to like completely rebuildall of that endurance, all of that
just physical strength, and I didn'tknow, like, is it gonna be
enough? Is this enough time,ready fire aim, Yeah, basically right,
like Okay, we're gonna we're gonnago for this, and who knows
what's gonna happen. Yeah wow.And then so you but you, that's

(27:49):
just a testament to you and thatyou you kept your mind in it and
knew that you still wanted to doit and dedicated. Did you dedicate the
swim to the virus? I did? Is that what I read? Yeah?
I did. That's amazing. Yeah, you know it was because it
was it was just it's a journey, you know, like no one wants

(28:11):
a cancer diagnosis, but it's acommunity too, right, and kind of
once once you've truly been impacted bycancer in a like a real personal way,
it's like you're bonded with any otherperson who's been truly hit by it.
And so I think it was superimportant to me to like keep that

(28:33):
in my mind when I was training, and you know, when I was
in the channel, like this isbigger than me. You know, this
is not just about the swim anymore. This is about anyone who's ever had
a set back, anyone who's everbeen told that they can't do something,
And I'm going to show them that, Yeah, you can work hard and
you can overcome way more than youthink you can and way more than other

(28:56):
people think you can exactly hundred percent. Okay, let's talk about the actual
channel crossing four way so for peoplewho don't know, So the channel is
what, correct me if I'm wrong? Twenty one miles if you're swimming straight.
Yep, so you did England,France, France, England, England,

(29:22):
France, France, England, rightright, yeah, okay, wow,
just so this, if you cantake me through each of the four
what laps? Just high level?What do you remember? You know,
take me through some of some ofit as you made each turn the round.

(29:45):
Are there things that stick out toyou with each one? Yeah?
I would say each lap had itsown journey, if you will. And
so that's kind of fun to likelook back on it because in the moment,
you're just like arm at a time, you know, we're just going
to make it through, you know, from one feed to the next,
and like you're just kind of likein the moment. But then when you

(30:07):
get to like look back on itand you're like, wow, that was
kind of wild how all that playedout. So just kind of like high
level. The way it works whenyou show up in England to swim the
English Channel, there's usually other people, so you're kind of waiting in line,
and then you have to like coordinatethe weather right. You need a
good weather window because they want totake you out if it's crazy, and

(30:30):
then you kind of have to coordinatethe weather with the right time for the
tides. So you can't just startan English Channel swim whenever you want right,
you need to they time it withthe tide so that you kind of
get a push off the coast andcatch the currents the right way, because
no one swims the English Channel ina straight line unless you've got like a
super incredibly fast swimmer, so everyonehas like an s curve into their swim,

(30:55):
and so the pilots are really adeptat reading the currents, reading the
tides and kind of getting you inthe right place at the right time so
that you actually land in France anddon't get swept out to see. So
we waited a really long time.The weather was not ideal. We almost
didn't think that we were going toget a chance to swim, and so
kind of just the way things workedout is we ended up having to start

(31:18):
the swim at like midnight, whichis not an ideal time to start something
that you're going to be doing fora multiple days. It just kind of
messes with your sleep pattern. It'skind of you know, you're going to
get extra dark dark time, maybemore than you wanted, so kind of
starting it it felt almost like alittle bit like a disadvantage to you know,
we're kicking off at midnight. SoLap number one was really pretty basic,

(31:47):
which is nice. It's it kindof went how you would want Lap
number one to go, just like, no real drama. I think I
think it puked up dinner at onepoint at spaghetti and like right around dawna
like just barfing up the spaghetti thatI had, but like not concerned about
it. Like it was fine.You know, like maybe to go with
solid food, you go with saladfood versus liquid nutrition. Yeah, I

(32:09):
normally like drink everything, right,so my normal calories are like carbohydrates,
a little bit of protein, andsome electrolytes and so like the spaghetti coming
up was dinner from the night before. Clearly bad choice to eat spaghetti,
but it was fine, right,So you know, we go across the

(32:30):
weather is delightful. I went acrossit right at like eleven and a half
hours. When I did my soloin twenty twelve, I was like eleven
hours and twenty minutes, So Iwas super happy, right like eleven and
a half hours for one way,like perfect timing. The tides tend to
change about every twelve hours, sothere is some disadvantage and like what I

(32:53):
was doing to have gone too fast, So I was really happy with the
pays, like everything was just likeperfect for lap number one. And then
so the way the rules work whenyou change direction is that you get to
shore, if there's a beach,you can walk out and exit and then

(33:14):
but you have to immediately re enterthe water, so you're only out of
the water for like seconds really andyou have to be back in the water
and you have to start swimming withinten minutes. And so we get to
France and I'm just on like rocks, and so when you hit rocks,
there's no rule that you have tolike go rock climbing to get out.
So basically I hit France, Icannot go any further and so I'm doing

(33:37):
my ten minutes just like in thewater and trying to just you know,
like you have like lube for likechafing and stuff. So like I'm in
the water like hanging on to thisrock with the current like pulling me really
strong and trying to like put somemore lanolin on sku so I don't chafe.
And my friend Elane was with mein the water and she's like giving

(33:58):
me like a snack. I atesome rice and then like ten minutes goes
really fast, and so then theyyelled at you. They're like you're ten
minutes is up? You guys startswimming and you're like, oh my gosh,
I'm not. I'm still chafing.And so lap number two we took
off. I hit a jellyfish likeimmediately in my face, and I remember

(34:22):
thinking like this is ominous, Likethis lap isn't going to be as easy
as the first one there was.I mean there was jellyfish everywhere. I'm
surprised I only hit one, butit did it like just hit me,
like it hit me all straight downmy face, so like my nose in
my chin are just like throbbing.I'm like, okay, here we go
lap number two, And what's thewater on this second lap? What's the

(34:45):
water quality? Like in water temperatureand just quality of the water. Yeah,
it's I think the whole swim watertemp was like mid sixties. I
think like sixty two to sixty fourish if I remember correctly. I was
comfortable. Water temp wise. Thatwasn't you know, It wasn't my one

(35:07):
of my big concerns. It wasnot water temp. The English channels choppy.
So it was choppy, but itwasn't like wild, you know what
I mean. Like I've swum inworse conditions for sure. Yeah. It
tends to be a little bit warmerin France, a little colder in England.
So yeah, Lap number two waswhen so like the middle of lap

(35:31):
number two was when the sun wasgoing to go back down on me.
Right, So I'd swum for midnight, watch the sunrise, and now I'm
coming back and now it's nighttime.Historically I have kind of a hard time
at night, and so I rememberwatching the sunset. It was a really
stunning sunset. Uh, and justlike trying to like amp myself up,
like I'm going to swim all nightlong, Like I'm going to swim all

(35:54):
night long, because I knew onceI got back to England, right,
it was going to be around fourhours and be midnight. It was gonna
be real tempting to just be like, Okay, I did an English Channel
double, I'm out, so I'mamping myself up, like swim all night.
Don't just get to England. Yougot to turn around. You gotta
make the turn. But then I'malso getting just like nauseous, and as

(36:20):
the sun goes down, I'm likefighting the nausea as hard as I can
fight it. But like I cantell like it's gonna be a long night,
you know, like I'm I'm gonnabe puking. I think I puked
like once around sunset, and Iwas like, okay, maybe I'm gonna
feel better like I did after thespaghetti, Like maybe that's it. I'm
gonna be done. But it didnot get better, and so lap number

(36:44):
two really was just like trying tofind the like I don't know, the
gumption the grit to like, Okay, I'm gonna make it through this and
I am going to turn around whenI get to England. So we did.
We swam, We got to England. I think I was like right
around twelve hours for lap number two, which again was like great considering that

(37:07):
I was smelling a little nauseous.We weren't able to get to a beach,
so there's like a sea wall,so I tagged the sea wall.
A Lane's in the water with meagain, and she's asking me, like,
I know you're not feeling good,what do you want to eat?
And so she gave me a pouchof baby food bananas, and so I

(37:27):
like slurped it down, you know, kind of like a gel. Slurped
it down and then just like instantaneouslypuked it back up. And I was
like, like, we are introuble. And I remember telling yeah,
like I don't know what's going tohappen here. I remember telling her too,
like I know we've just been swimmingfor twenty four hours, but it
feels a lot longer than twenty fourhours. And she was like us two

(37:52):
and so you know, I'm kindof whining, I'm puking, and the
boat people are like ten minutes isup? Better start swimming, And so
I did you know, you justyour choices. Do I quit or do
I put my head down and goagain? And I did. I put
my head down and I started swimming. I was really encouraged, kind of

(38:14):
the one thing that was maybe likekeeping me going was that I could see
a bunch of other channel boats weregoing out, so there was other swimmers
starting, so I knew, like, Okay, the weather's still holding,
like the forecast is great, Likethere's other people going out again, like
I'm right on time with the tides, you know, Like all of those
were like, Okay, I knowI have an opportunity. However, like

(38:38):
I'm really sick, and I did. I puked all night long. I
couldn't hold anything down. It wasmidnight, right, and so like I
had about six hours of just likefull darkness and just puking, and I'm
you know, yelling at everybody likeI don't think I can do this.
I don't think I'm tough enough.And they're telling me like, hey,

(38:59):
we can see all these other channelboats out here, like you're keeping up
with everybody, like you maybe feelterrible, but like you're still swimming fine.
And a lane is she has infinitewisdom, my friend Elaine, And
she yelled down at me at onepoint and she was like, Sarah,
don't make a decision in the dark. And what she meant was swim until

(39:20):
the sun comes up and then wecan kind of reevaluate the situation, but
like, don't make the decision inthe dark. And it's so smart,
right, And that gave me atarget like okay, just swim until the
sun comes up. See if youcan fight it, see if you feel
better. And my crew super encouraging, like, hey, you're you're not
sucking. You know you're not failing, so just you know, we know
that you feel awful, but likesee what happens. And sure enough,

(39:45):
the sun came up, my nausewent away. I was able to like
get some actual nutrition down. Wehad some like peanut eminem's on the boat,
and I'm thinking, like I gotto like rebuild some calories and faster
else I'm not going to make iton lap number four. And so they're
feeding me M and m's and youknow, we're just like, okay,
how do we rebuild from this likecrazy horrible night? And we did.

(40:07):
The sun came up. I feltbetter, I felt like refreshed. I
think they started sending me down somemouthwash from all the vomit, and I
did that, you know, likean hour or two after the sun was
up. I remember yelling up ateveryone and I was like sorry, I
was so whiny overnight. But ifI pay with you, we're going to
turn around when we get to France. And they were like yay, and

(40:31):
so we did. We swam therest of the way relatively uneventful. You
know, I'm like recovered, LikeI still don't know how my body recovered
from like six hours straight of justpuging everything out of its system, but
was able to recover. We getclose to France, the tides are crazy.
When you were off the coast ofFrance, you said, I'm like

(40:53):
about thirty six hours into swimming,and they're like, hey, tides returning.
You got a sprint And I rememberthinking, like, thirty six hours
into the swim, you think Ican sprint right now. But I did
put my head down. We aimed, you know, for this point,
and I truly had to swim aboutas hard as I could because I knew

(41:14):
if we missed it, it addshours. So I'm swimming for this point
as hard as I possibly can forabout an hour and then yeah, hit
the rocks again. You know,we were hoping for our beach, but
I'm hit. I'm in the samelike rock pile. And yeah, that
was an English channel three way.Only five people in history, with me

(41:36):
being number five, had ever donea three way, and so it was
kind of crazy just to know thathaving finished three laps, I was already
like a big part of history.It's just kind of cool, like no
matter what happens here, like Ijust did something really special. So I
did my did my ten minutes inFrance, and then we kicked off lap

(42:00):
number four. Before the swim,my book captain had said like, hey,
if you if you make it toEngland or sorry, if you make
it to France, I'll float youback to England like a log. And
so I was just kind of likeexpecting lap number four to be very uneventful.
I was feeling totally fine, likeI wasn't all that fatigued, you

(42:24):
know, I felt like we hadgone through the worst and lap number three,
and so I was really optimistic goinginto lap number four, and so
you know, we had kind ofestimated twelve hours per lap. I was
right on track for that. Soyou know, I'm thinking like a forty
eight to fifty hour swim. SoI get to the forty eight hour mark,
you know, we're in the middleof the night, Like I'm thinking

(42:45):
I'm close, you know, likedoesn't really matter. Like I wasn't too
bothered when the sun went down.I'm like, I don't have to swim
through this whole entire night, Likeit's going to be fine. So I
get to the forty eight hour markand my buddy Craig jumps in to do
a pace swim with me, andhe said, like, hey, you're
stuck in kind of a weird current. We really need you to do an

(43:06):
hour of power and see if youcan break through this current and get into
the British in shore waters. Andso like, you know, I've been
awake for two days at this point, so that doesn't entirely like register to
me. So I kind of think, Okay, if I sprint for an
hour, I'm going to be superclose. So I did. I sprinted
with Craig for an hour like it'spitch black. My whole crew was on

(43:28):
the side of the boat screaming atme. I can't hear, I can't
hardly see. I just know thatthey're making a lot of noise. And
so we finished this hour like Ireally truly swam as fast as I could,
and I asked, well, howfast do you think you maybe a
minute. I don't even I don'teven know. It probably wasn't that graceful.

(43:49):
Wow. But the thing that getsme though is the sleep. I
mean, yep, it's crazy.No sleep, no drought at all,
not really. I drink a littlebit of caffeine in my feeds. There's
like I use an electro like supplementthat like noon is what it's called.

(44:10):
And then there's caffeine in it,just like a little tiny bit and that's
enough to kind of keep me keepme going. Yeah, so okay,
and so so yeah, we're atforty eight hours. I'm sprinting and we
get done and I ask like,hey, did I do enough? And
they don't know. They're like,I don't know, maybe, and yeah,

(44:34):
It's just it's one of those thingsyou're like, Okay, I'm out
here in the middle of the EnglishChannel. It's the middle of the night,
and you don't know where we areis what it felt like, and
it's like this are we lost?You know, like what? And they
can't explain all that to you,right because I've got earplugs in. You
can't hear super well. The boatis kind of high, so it's not
like you can truly have conversations withpeople, and you know, when you're

(44:55):
in a current, you can't juststop, right because every moment that you're
stopped is pushing you in the wrongdirection. And so all I can do
is just like keep swimming, yeah, you know. And Elaine got in
with me a couple of hours later, and she was like, hey,
we think you've got about another horsetooth, which is that ten k race

(45:15):
that I did first. So she'stelling me, we think you've got about
another six miles to go, andI'm like, it's our fifty I'm supposed
to be done now, and you'retelling me I've got like three or four
more hours to go. Like I'mnot encouraged, you know. And it's
just what I remember at those lastfew hours is just like I was so

(45:37):
confused because it's you know, it'ssleep deprivation. You know, it's two
nights, it's dark, you can'treally hear, you know. I'm asking
questions and I'm getting told we don'tknow, which is fair, right,
Like I'd rather them tell me wedon't know than lie to me. And
so all I can do is justlike keep swimming, right, And so

(45:58):
then the sun starts to come up. I'm like, oh my gosh,
I've swum through two and a halfnights. I didn't think that this was
going to have to happen. Sothe sun's coming up, and then my
buddy Carl jumps in and he said, Sarah, you're super close, but
the tide's about to change on youagain, so you have to swim as

(46:19):
hard as you can in order tomake it to shore right now. And
I'm not looking up right like,I'm not looking to see how close it
is. I have no idea otherthan like I can kind of feel the
water churning and changing. I cankind of feel an upwelling, so like
suddenly it's like a little bit colderthan it was. I'm like, all
right, here we go. Andso I did I put my head down.

(46:40):
I don't kick a lot when Iswim, so I'm like, my
arms are fried. I'm going tojust kick as hard as I possibly can.
And so all I could literally seewas like the boat was on my
right, Carl is on my left. They brought out like the little zodiac,
so I knew I was close becausethey only bring that out when you're
close. At the zodiac and Carlon my left and I am like literally

(47:02):
just every single ounce of energy thatI have left, and I'm just swimming
like I'm getting water up my noseand it's like going straight down my throat
and I'm like, if I notfinished this soon, I might actually drown,
you know, like and all ofthese things are just like rushing through
your head, like am I goingto finish this? Like have it come
thus far? Only for the tideto turn on me again? Like I

(47:24):
don't know, Like he told meI was going to get floated back to
England like a lug, and nowI'm like seventeen hours in and I don't
know if we're going to make it. And so I did swimming, swimming
like literally as hard as I can. I'm not looking. I'm focused only
on like going as hard as Ican possibly go. And then all of

(47:44):
a sudden, there was sure andI could see it underneath my fingers and
I tried to stand up when Icould, and I fell straight back to
Yeah, I saw the content ofyou out there. Yeah. I had
to crawl out. Oh, itwas like flaw on my back, Like
holy cow, what just happened tome? Where? I remember asking like

(48:05):
where am I, And they're like, oh, you're at Shakespeare Beach,
Like I was like less than likea mile from where I started the swim,
and I'm like totally disoriented, LikeI had no idea what just happened
to me? Now, how manytotal miles do you estimate? Because that
was if it was straight, it'dbe what eighty ish? Yeah, if
it was much like a little overeighty, I honestly don't count it that

(48:29):
way because it the current was pushingand pulling. So the current neutral distance
is like eighty four miles. Whatthe current did to me it was probably
close to one hundred. Wow.Wow, that's incredible. So going through
that experience is do you think thatthat's the limit of what can humanly be

(48:57):
done? Well? Can someone doa five six times? You know?
I it's not the limit of whatcan be done. I definitely believe that.
Yeah. In talking with my boatcaptain after that, his name's Eddie.
He has since told me he's like, you know, my greatest regret,
Sarah, is not turning you forlap number five. He was like,

(49:21):
I knew what the current we're goingto do, and I think you
had it in you to go anotherlap. He's like, we should have
made another turn. Really, Idon't know if I believe you on them
and Eddie's spelling. However, youknow, he's watched a lot of swimmers,
and you know, I kind oftrust his instinct that if he thinks
it would have been possible, thenmaybe it was possible. You know,

(49:42):
you have to have a perfect window, right, like you have to get
that perfect conditions of like the weathercooperating for three days. But I you
know, I think it can bedone. Well, you heard it.
If anybody out there wants it,try, I think that's probably going to

(50:02):
stand for a long time. Ithink that might be the greatest endurance accomplishment
ever. I mean that is justbecause you hear of ultra again, you
hear of an ultra marathon to doingone hundred miles. You know, Dean
Carnassis ran for three three hundred miles. But to do it swimming in an

(50:29):
environment that's humans didn't evolve to swimcertainly that long? You got to sleep,
right, So yeah, and Ido think, you know, I
think that's where the limit is is, like how far can someone go without
sleeping? Right? You know,when you're doing those ultrap like runs or

(50:49):
cycles or rowing. You can stopand take a nap. But you can
only do that in the water,you know, Like I've tried to take
an out up in the water,and especially where there's a you know,
a current that could potentially push youway off course. Yeah, exactly.
And that's the you can't just stop, you know what I mean, there's
there's not a break to be had, like you're working the entire time.

(51:13):
Yeah. I think that's where thelimit is is, like how long can
humans go without sleeping? Yeah,And even the Ultra Marathon run has described
this sort of state of it's almostlike a state in between awake and sleep.
It's like they're sleeping why they're running. I've got what it's called as
a scientific term for it. Butyou can't do that in swimming because you

(51:35):
drift away, right and you'll ordrown. Yes, that's what I remember
at the end of Lake Champlain,which you know, like that swim took
me sixty seven hours, so longerthan the English channel of time wise.
And I remember at the end wewere trying to like find our landing spot
and there was just like a bunchof lights and it was in the middle
of the night and I'm like recollectingfor my crew, like oh yeah,

(51:58):
I remember swimming by this like we'renot there yet, like they're trying to
pull me in. I'm like,we've got like more to go. And
it was almost like I was morelike lucid and with it having not slept
for three days than they were,like on the boat. And I do
think like I'm usually very alert andlike know where I am and what's going
on. Right there's just like yourbrain doesn't get to turn off in the

(52:22):
way I think you can in someother situations. Yeah, exactly. Wow,
that is absolutely inspiring. So whatis Well, let me ask you
this, what do you think you'reout of all the I know there's a
big marathon swimming community. Where doyou think your accomplishment's place? Are you?

(52:50):
Are? You? Do you thinkabout that where I place in history
of marathon swimming? And if so, how do you see yourself? It's
a good question, you know.I feel like in a lot of this,
my motivation has always been like whatcan I do? You know,
like what's my personal limit? Youknow, like what's my potential? So

(53:13):
it's hard for me to like comparemyself to others or like or to like
put myself in I don't know,it's it's a hard question for me to
answer because some like great people outthere who have left like incredible legacies and
like totally changed the sport of marathonswimming. You know, you think about

(53:34):
like Gertrude Utterly, who's the firstwoman to swim the English Channel, or
like Matthew web the first person toswim that the English Channel. You know,
it's weird to like put yourself inthat category with those like great people
or people who have like spet setspeed records across the channel, or you
know what I mean, Like there'sjust so many different types of accomplishments.

(53:58):
Yeah, do you have enough pain? Let me ask you this. You
have an opinion on Naiad? Iknow this or is that? Because I
know that's sort of a radioactive inthe marathon swimming community. People have different
differing thoughts on the accomplishment or whatpeople believe with the accomplishment. But you

(54:22):
don't have to answer, you know, because I know the she's definitely a
controversial figure within marathon swimming. Yeah, No matter what I would answer to
that, it would make someone verymad at me. Yeah, that seems
to be the you know, becausethis year they had they had the movie
come out on Netflix, and thenI had sort of a Net Benning character

(54:44):
playing her, and then Jody Fostercharacter playing her friend. And but what
you've done, I mean to me, seems like it might be the top
of the apex of the marathon swimmingworld. I can't see. I mean,
if somebody were to play you inthe movie, who's gonna who's it
going to be? Are you goingto have you come out? They better

(55:07):
be super cute? Who would playyou? Who do you think would play
you? When the Sarah Thomas moviecomes out sometime? I don't know.
I don't know the answer. That'sso wild to even think about. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, interesting. Wellwhat about the book deal? Any

(55:29):
any thoughts about writing a book aboutYeah, there is a book in progress.
It's slow, very slow progress,but I am working on it.
Hopefully it'll be out this year.At some point, I would say probably
three fourths of the way written,so then you know, it'll need to
go through editing and all that goodstuff. But really hopeful that we can

(55:51):
get the book out this year.Nice. I want to see the I
want to see the book. I'llbe the first one to get it.
Amazing. Documentary is amazing. Peoplecan get that out there on YouTube right
now. Wow. So, andwhat are you doing in the meantime?

(56:12):
Now? So you work nine tofive and then you what coaching and swimming?
Yeah? I work. You've gota full time regular person job.
I coach. I think I've gotfifteen swimmers on my roster. Yeah,
you know a bunch of little things. Coaching open water swimmers. Yeah,
coach open water swimmers from around theworld, which is fun. I do

(56:37):
coach a master's team here and there, kind of when I've got extra time
you're working on the book, Iwrite a column for Outdoor Summer Magazine.
Yeah, so I feel like I'mkind of busy. So if somebody wants
to hire you to help them withtheir channel crossing or their first channel crossing,
or to do the five way,how do they hire you? They

(57:01):
can go to my website, SarahThomas swims dot com. Send me a
message through my website. Yeah,I don't know. Hire me for a
speaking gig. I love to dospeaking engagements gigs too. Okay, great,
Hey, I'm just glad I gota chance to sit down and talk

(57:22):
to you and let people know thatI had an hour, almost an hour
conversation with the great Sarah Thomas.This is incredible. Okay, So what
words would you like to leave withto inspire people that might listen to this

(57:44):
and know your accomplishments. Oh,that's always such a tough question. Let's
see here. I don't know.I think for me, it's not just
about the swimming, right, Ithink the swimming is what gets attention and
like what makes people like want tohear what I have to say. But

(58:05):
if I have to say it,you know, it's not I'm proud of
the swimming. But what's more importantis like the legacy that you're leaving in
life. And I really believe youknow that, Like if I can inspire
like one person to just overcome somehurdle in their life because they want to,
you know, they've got some bigdream but something's holding them back,

(58:27):
Like you can do it, youknow what I mean. And it doesn't
have to be in the water.It's it's just I feel like it's just
deeper than that, you know,like be a good person and do your
best, you know, with whatyou've been given. Like we're all dealk
crap hands and it's not it's notabout the accomplishment, but it's about like
what you are able to persevere throughand just I don't know if I'm making

(58:52):
that very eloquent or not, butI don't know. There's just more to
it, you know, be agood human. Let's leave it with it.
Yeah, I mean, you wereall here. Even if you live
to be a hundred, we're allgoing to be gone for a long time,
in which case it's all about whatyou do here on the planet now,

(59:15):
and that's how people are going toremember you, what you did,
how you inspired, and you embodyall of that one hundred percent. So
thanks for having this conversation with me. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Hopefully I didn't ramble too much foryou. No, I loved it,
love it. Thanks. Thanks againto Sarah Thomas for coming on to the

(59:39):
podcast. Check out The Other Sideon YouTube link in the show notes.
Check her out at Sarah thomas swimsdot com. Link in the show notes.
And I'll wait for the book andthe movie and I can't wait to

(01:00:04):
see who they're going to pick toplay Sarah Thomas in the movie. I
don't know a lot about marathon swimming. I followed loosely, but the first
person to swim a current neutral swimover one hundred miles, that accomplishment has

(01:00:27):
got to be one of the greatestendurance accomplishments, male or female. And
on that alone, she's got tobe considered one of the greatest amateur endurance

(01:00:49):
athletes. Error on top of that, what she's done in the teeth of
a cancer diagnosis was something that justeven adds on to her legend. So
one of the lessons that we takeaway from people like Sarah is that maybe

(01:01:13):
sometimes going faster is not the waythat you want to challenge yourself. And
so as endurance athletes, sometimes it'scommonplace where we do one event, we
immediately want to surpass that event bygoing faster this time. But maybe you
don't think about going faster. Maybeyou challenge yourself in a different way,

(01:01:37):
just like Sarah found out, Hey, I'm not the fastest pull swimmer.
Maybe there's other ways to challenge myself. And maybe if you want to set
yourself apart from other people or othercompetitors, maybe you just have to find
some things that you will be willingto do, whereas other people are not

(01:02:04):
willing to even attempt those things.Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to
be swim the English channel four timeswithout stopping. It could be a very
modest and personal goal, something likea streak. If you're a hiker or
a mountain climber, maybe it's todo the seventh Summits or whatever it is.

(01:02:30):
But find unique ways to challenge yourselfand set yourself apart from other people.
Follow Event Horizon Endurance Sport on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, but training
programs and services. To become amember of our Endurance Institute or recomplete archive

(01:02:52):
of podcasts, long to our websiteevent Horizon dot tv.