September 6, 2025 • 57 mins
A conversation with Dean Karnazes, ultra-marathon runner, and author. Among many accomplishments he holds the record for the longest continuous run of 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep, and winner of the Badwater 135 milre run in Death Valley California. His first book, Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner, details his ultra endurance running origins and accomplishments. He's since written 4 more books including 50/50 which details the secrets he's learned in running 50 marathons in 50 states, in 50 days.
We talk about his origin story and the books he's written about running. We discuss his running accomplishments including the 350 mile consecutive run, Badwater and the 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days.
We have an exhange about the boom we've seen in marathon running over the last 5-10 years and I get Dean's perspective on what's fueling it.
We talk about the often oversold adverse effects of running and whether or not he's experienced any of them in the 30 years of running long distance.
We talk about what he's doing now, what he's doing next, and what he's doing with Greek Running Tours.
Finally I ask Dean about his legacy and whether or not he thinks about his place in the annals of ultra marathon running.
About Dean Karnazes
https://ultramarathonman.com/
Dean Karnazes Books:
Ultra-Marathon Man
https://a.co/d/cPlCxAa
Run!
https://a.co/d/4CCSguM
Runners High
https://a.co/d/gsb1Elz
50/50
https://a.co/d/5lUa0ar
The Road to Sparta
https://a.co/d/aOfOZhg
Greek Running Tours
https://www.greekrunningtours.com/
Dean on Instagram
https://instagram.com/ultramarathon
UltraMarathon Man: 50 Marathons • 50 States • 50 Days Documentary
https://youtu.be/bpjRFkqTIkY?si=_R5lAQ5teaCk0kNN
We talk about his origin story and the books he's written about running. We discuss his running accomplishments including the 350 mile consecutive run, Badwater and the 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days.
We have an exhange about the boom we've seen in marathon running over the last 5-10 years and I get Dean's perspective on what's fueling it.
We talk about the often oversold adverse effects of running and whether or not he's experienced any of them in the 30 years of running long distance.
We talk about what he's doing now, what he's doing next, and what he's doing with Greek Running Tours.
Finally I ask Dean about his legacy and whether or not he thinks about his place in the annals of ultra marathon running.
About Dean Karnazes
https://ultramarathonman.com/
Dean Karnazes Books:
Ultra-Marathon Man
https://a.co/d/cPlCxAa
Run!
https://a.co/d/4CCSguM
Runners High
https://a.co/d/gsb1Elz
50/50
https://a.co/d/5lUa0ar
The Road to Sparta
https://a.co/d/aOfOZhg
Greek Running Tours
https://www.greekrunningtours.com/
Dean on Instagram
https://instagram.com/ultramarathon
UltraMarathon Man: 50 Marathons • 50 States • 50 Days Documentary
https://youtu.be/bpjRFkqTIkY?si=_R5lAQ5teaCk0kNN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The intersection of endurance, sport, health, fitness, and life, following
the evidence where it leads with the science of self
propelled motion. This is the Endurance Experience podcast, powered by
Event Horizon dot TV and hosted by Tony Rich.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thanks for joining me. I'm Tony Rich. Today I'm speaking
with Dean Carnassis. For many of you that are endurance enthusiasts,
that name should be familiar to you. He is the
author of the book Ultra Marathon Man, and he also
(00:45):
has four more books since that one. I will put
the links to them in a show notes. But you
know him as the record holder for the longest continue
us run, three hundred and fifty miles across three days,
(01:06):
and basically that's the longest that we've ever known of
any human running in a continuous attempt. He's also won
bad Water, the bad Water one hundred and thirty five
mile Death Valley Race, and he's run fifty marathons in
(01:32):
fifty states in fifty days. So I talked to him
about his origin story. I talked to him about some
of his most famous running accomplishments. That's very interesting. Was
a very interesting exchange. The accomplishments that he thinks were
(01:56):
the most challenging. We talk about the boom in marathon
running since he started running long distances and really getting
into ultra marathon running in the late nineties and early
two thousands, and he gives his perspective on how that
(02:17):
has taken off so vehemently over the last decade. Periodically,
there are touted adverse effects from running long distances. None
of them have really have held up to empirical evidence.
But I did post a question to Dean whether or
not he has experienced any adverse effects from being an
(02:44):
ultra marathon runner for so long. That was also a
pretty interesting exchange. We talk about some of the things
that he's doing with his company, Greek Running Tours, which
can be accessed at Greek Running Tours dot com, and
(03:06):
the fact that he's still racing and still running, and
finally we talk about his legacy in the ultra marathon
running sphere and whether or not he thinks about that.
Very interesting conversation and I hope to get out there
(03:29):
and run with Dean in Marathon Greece. So without further delay,
I give you Dean Carnassis, the ultra marathon Man. I
am on with Dean Carnasses. Thanks for coming on to
the podcast, Thanks for having me run by. Yes, So
(03:56):
there's so much I want to talk to you about. People.
People on this podcast will be familiar with who you
are and some of what you've done. You are probably
one of the most, if not the most famous ultra
marathon runner, and you've got a few books out Ultra
(04:18):
Marathon Man Run Running at fifty is that what it is?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It was actually one time I ran fifty marathons and all.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay, yeah, run fifty to fifty fifty marathons, fifty States
Runners High and twenty six point two stories of blistering
marathon performances and such. So, out of those four books,
which one do you feel it gives you the best
(04:51):
highlight of your life? Or do you feel like you
have another book in store for the future.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, I mean there's a saying an author's that you're
you're only as good as your next book. So I've
written five so far. I think my first book, which
was Ultra Marathon Man Confessions of an All Night Runner,
is still probably my favorite because it's like a coming
of age book, you know, like it's this discovery of
(05:20):
ultra marathoning. You know, walking out of a bar on
my thirtieth birthday drunk and deciding that, you know, I'm
going to change my life by running thirty miles right
then and there, you know, and and you know that
that night forever changing the course of my life. So
it's it's, you know, kind of the discovery of Ultra Marathon,
(05:40):
discovering of who I am as a person, which everyone
can relate to, you know, whether you're a man or
a woman, and whether you run you know, great distances,
or don't even run at all. So I think that
that book and the themes are kind of universal. And
then my most recent book is called a Runner's High,
and it's it's almost like a sequel to Ultra mathon Man.
(06:05):
So it's kind of like, you know, three decades later, Wow,
I still am doing this. I still love it.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Here the challenges and the obstacles that I'm facing. Here,
here's how running and Ultra Marathon has changed. Here's how
the world has changed, and here is how I have
changed as a person. And again, I think they're all
very ideaifiable themes for any human.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Right Yeah, and then I'm going to put the link
to all of those in the show notes so that
the listeners can can get them and you know, definitely
looking forward to the next one. And so I I
wanted to ask you about your you know, your origin story,
some of your accomplishments, and you know, some of your
(06:52):
thoughts on the recent explosion of marathoning in really across
the world. And I want to talk about the effects
that marathon running has on humans. Every every other year
we seem to get an article about ultra marathon and
(07:14):
marathon in general and the impact on the body and
psychology and everything like that, and then it gets debunked later.
But I wanted to get your opinion on that, and
you know, just some some information about what you're doing. Now,
let's start by going into your your origin story. Where
where did Dean Kana as a start and if you
(07:37):
can for the listeners, you know, talk about, you know,
how you got into whether it was school or sports,
or how did you get into running, and what type
of background did you have prior to getting into running,
whether it be in school and or sports.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'll start by saying that I'm one
hundred percent Greek and that my real name is actually Constantine.
So Dean is just a nickname I've used my whole life.
I don't know where I got the name Dean, but
my real name is Constantine. So you know, if you
look at my passport or my driver's license, you know,
people are shocked, like you're not named Dean. But anyway,
(08:24):
you know, Greece is the birthplace of the marathon, as
you might know, as as some of you listening might know.
And I remember when I was a little boy being
at these Greek festivals and seeing these old men from
Greece that would dance all night. I mean they were
they were dancing Greek, which is very acrobatic. I mean
(08:45):
Greek dancing is very physical. It's like a type of
run and you know, bending and so forth. And I
remember seeing these men and someone said to me, oh, yeah,
they're you know that these guys all run marathons. And
I thought, what's a marathon? And they said, oh, it's
a very long, very difficult race. And I said, I
(09:06):
think I want to try this, and they said, well,
the first man that did this, he died at the end.
I remember thinking maybe I don't want to try this,
but I ran competitively when I was in junior high
school and then when I was a freshman of in
high school, we won the cross country championships and I thought, okay,
(09:27):
you know, that's a great way to end my running career,
you know, going on a high So at fifteen I
stopped running, and you know, I screwed off for basically
fifteen years. I somehow, you know, got into college. Then
I went to graduate school, and then I went to
business school, and I had this very comfortable corporate job
in San Francisco. And on the night of my thirtieth birthday,
(09:50):
as I spoke about earlier, I was in a bar
with my buddies doing what you know a lot of
us do on our thirtieth birthdays. I was getting very drunk,
and at midnight I told him I was going to leave,
and they said, you know, hold on, let's have another
round at tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm
going to run thirty miles to celebrate instead. I'll never forget.
(10:11):
They looked at me and they said, but you're not
a runner, you know you're you're drunk, and I said,
I am, but I'm still going to do it. And
I walked out of the bar. And I'll never forget.
I didn't even know I'm running gear at the time,
but I had on these you know, these comfortable silk
boxer shorts, like these silk underwear. So I took off
my pants and you know, threw them down the alleyway
and just started stumbling south into the night, knowing there
(10:35):
was a town called half Moon Bay that was thirty
miles away. I was living in San Francisco at the time,
and I thought, just just run to half Moon Bay.
And you know, about ten miles down the road, I
started sobering up, and I thought, what the hell are
you doing? But something just felt right Tony. I felt like,
you know, I looked up and I remember seeing the
(10:57):
stars and the heavens. It was pitch black. I was
by myself and never had I felt so alive, and
it kind of hit me. It was like God spoke
to me, like, you know, Constantine, you're just your runner,
that's why you're here, and do what you love. I
hated being you know. I was sure I had a
great corporate job. You know, I had a fat paycheck,
(11:18):
I had stock options, a company car, you know, all
the all the perks. But I was miserable in my
job and I didn't like being a business guy. It
wasn't who I was, you know who I am. You know,
I most like running. So I thought, you're either gonna
you know, hit sixty and be very regretful that you
(11:39):
never you know, followed your passion, or you're going to
follow your passion. Maybe you'll fail, but at least you'll try, right,
And like I said, that was over three decades ago
and I'm still still running strong.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
How did you deal with the difference between I want
to really be a performing professional athlete versus I want
to be a recreational athlete and just do well at it.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, well, I'm I finished this thirty mile run and
I and I became a runner at that point. So
I'm like, okay, you know you used to love to
run when you're a kid, and let you know now
you still love it again. So I remember I was running,
you know, six or seven miles a day out to
the Golden Gate Bridge, and I thought it was a
badass because I was always passing people. You know, I
prided myself I'm being very fatt and one day I
(12:27):
was I was running home and if you know San Francisco,
you know, no matter where you live, you got to
run over hills or mouth, you know. So I was
running up this big, long hill to get to my
house and these two guys just blew by me like
I was standing still. I mean, these guys they looked,
you know, it was choking on their dust. I mean
there was. They were like a different species of human
(12:49):
and I thought, my god. And they had packs on
as well, and I thought what was that all about?
And I really wanted to talk to him, but they
just passed me and disappeared over the top up of
the hill, and I thought I'll never see him again.
But they were, you know, that next level fitness. Well,
I got to the top of the hill and those
two guys were up there and they were doing push ups,
(13:11):
and so I finally had my chance to talk to him.
And they weren't very talkative, but I said to him,
or you know, what are you guys doing and they said,
we're training and I said for a race and they
said yes. And I said, you know, is it a
long race? And they said yes. And I said, you know,
are the hills involved And one of the guys said no,
his buddy said, there are mountains involved. I'm like, oh, okay,
(13:34):
and they both got up and finished their push ups
and were about to run away, and I said, well,
you know, tell me about this race. How far is it?
And the one guy said, it's fifty miles And I thought,
holy shit, fifty miles, Like you know, we're the campgrounds
like or the hotels along the way, or you know,
how many days do you have to complete this? And
his buddy said, no, no, the gun goes off and
(13:57):
you start running and you you know, you you fish
when you cross the finish line. And his you know
is his friend kind of elbowed him, like, you know,
I if you crossed the finish line, kind of said,
implying that there's no way I could ever do this.
And and I said, what's the name of this race?
And they gave me the name of the race and
then they just ran off. So I went to the
(14:19):
to the library because you know, back then, there was
no internet. There was you know, we didn't have smartphones
or anything. There wasn't even a flip phone back then. Yeah,
And I remember I researched this race. I found out
about it, and I signed up for it. I remember,
you know, filling out my entry by hand, you know,
writing a check, a physical check, and putting in the
mail and then going to this race. And yeah, that
(14:41):
running fifty miles was excruciating. I can't even describe how
every cell in my body was just screaming in agony.
It was. It was the most difficult thing I had
ever done. And you know, I finished somehow I made it.
And I was in the like the medical head at
the finish and I was kind of wrapped in this
(15:02):
you know, milar space blanket, shivering. You know, somebody had
given me some soup or some you know, something in
the drink that was warm, and I was kind of
drooling on myself, just a complete wreck. And I see
those same two guys and they're high fiving each other, saying,
we qualified, we qualified. And I'm thinking, where'd you qualify
for the Insane Asylum And they said, no, we qualified
(15:25):
for the Western States one hundred mile endurance run. And
I thought, what one hundred miles like twice this far.
The guy's like, yeah, and you start at the base
of the ski resort the first five miles, or you
climbed to the very top of the ski resort, and
then you run ninety five miles through the mountains, and
I said, well, you know, where do you Where do
(15:46):
you eat? How do you eat? Where do you stop?
He said, you know, you eat when you run. I said, well,
what happens when it gets dark? Where do you sleep?
He said, no, you put on a headlamp and you
keep running. And he said the goal is to finish
in twenty four hours. You know, He's like, you cross
rivers at night, you know, you scale mountains, you descend
into valleys, and I just I couldn't wrap my head
(16:07):
around it. And the last thing they said before they
left is they looked at me and they said, hey, buddy,
you qualified as well. And when they said that to me,
I knew that I had to do this race or
never lived down that moment. So I signed up for
the Western State one hundred mile Endurance Run and that
was in nineteen ninety four. H and it was It's
(16:30):
an indelible impression upon me. I mean, I can remember
to this day exactly what the course looked like, the
people I spoke with, everything, I remember every every foot
of that one hundred miles from nineteen ninety four. It
was just such an awakening. And I finished the race.
(16:50):
I finished it under twenty four hours. I finished in
about twenty hours, and I thought, my god, this there's
power in this. Even though you know, you don't get
prize money. You get the you know, the same belt
buckle that everyone gets for finishing. I said, I think,
I think there's there's something here. There's some magic in
this that may be marketable and and maybe you can
(17:11):
actually make a go OFVID somehow, spreading the word to others,
uh and making the living doing just that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah. Wow. And then so then since then, you very
famously have completed the I think at the time it
was the record for the longest three longest run three
hundred and fifty miles over eighty hours, in forty four
(17:42):
minutes without sleep. Is that still the longest known consecutive run.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I think so, I you know, there, I think there
are people that possibly are going to break that record.
I mean, originally and I set out to run five
hundred miles NonStop, but you know, stopped at three fifty
because I thought, maybe someone can run five hundred miles,
but it's it's not me. But you know, that was
(18:13):
three sleepless you know, two sleepless nights, one third night
of kind of hallucinating as I ran. So it was
you know, it's it's not something you want to try
too often. You know. I still think that for me
running fifty marathons in all the fifty United States and
fifty consecutive days, I think that was tougher because it
(18:35):
just lasted so much longer.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Right, yeah, and so running continuously for three hundred and
fifty miles, I mean, I think that's that's what that's.
So that's a little over three days, right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So you're right, it was about it was over eighty hours.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, So that's really approaching the limit of how long
a human can go without sleep, I mean, and so
it's hard to see anyone ever. You think that will
be beaten eventually. Yes, I think so, I mean I
(19:17):
think so.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I mean there, I think someone just ran more than
three hundred miles in forty eight hours. You know, it
was a forty eight hour race. So you know, when
you when you do something like that, I mean, you know,
you pretty much pace yourself to run for forty eight hours.
But I'm thinking, okay, you know that that still gives someone,
you know, thirty hours to cover fifty miles. Maybe that's doable.
(19:42):
It's hard to say, you know, when when you're completely
tapped out, you know, even running another five miles and
thirty hours could be impossible. So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah, and that was you that that run was
about to foot What was it about. I'm looking it
up now, just online. It was about a fourteen minute
mile or that's pretty fast to run that long. So
(20:14):
I think you're right. I mean, we are seeing more.
I don't know if it's nutrition. People think it's nutrition.
People think it's hue technology. People think it's wearable technology
that is fueling humans to do more and more today
than say a few decades ago. But you think you
(20:36):
think the fifty marathons, fifty states in fifty days was harder? Yes,
what was some of the other things that made that harder?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Well, you know, running a marathon on its own is
pretty hard, right, you know, and then getting up the
next day, you know, you're you're sore either, you know,
the last thing kind of on your mind is to
run another marathon, and and so you know, just the
you know, the grueling nature of running fifty marathons in
(21:07):
a row. But not only that, there was the travel
that was involved. So yeah, you know it wasn't just
like I was running twenty six point two miles and
you know, going back to my house, showering and running
that same route the next day, which I think is
much more approachable. I mean I was getting in a
bus and traveling sometimes eight or nine hours to the
next state. So the travel and the sleep deprivation was
(21:32):
really grueling. And again, you know, I remember at marathon thirty,
I thought, I'm so wrecked. I don't know if I
can even get out of bed tomorrow morning. And I
still have to run twenty more marathons, right, So you
know that's just psychologically weigh so heavily on you. Yeah,
so a little not even close to not even a
(21:56):
tiny bit close to you. But I did the seven
seven seven seven marathons, seven continent, seven days, and that
was just seven and that, to me, I couldn't imagine
doing anything more than that.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
After that, I got the seventh. But you're right, the
sleep deprivation, how do I get my calories into my
body for the next one? The you know, everything in
your body screaming at you, what are you doing? Right?
So so I gotta get a little slice of relating
(22:34):
to what you just described. What about bad Water. So
you you won bad Water? How many times I've wanted?
I just won it once? Okay, I've been.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I've been first, second, fourth, and fifth. Yeah, so I've
run it ten times. Yeah, I actually i've run it.
I've finished it ten times. I've run it eleven times.
The first time it was a disaster. But yeah, you know,
have you ever done Badwater?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
No, just so people know, if you can explain to
people what bad water is, so someone who may not know.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, Badwater is the lowest point in the Western Hemisphere.
So it's in California. It's in the desert and a
place called Death Valley. And the idea of the Badwater
Ultra Marathon is to run from the lowest point in
the Western Hemisphere to the highest point in the contiguous US,
which is Mount Whitney. And that's one hundred and thirty
(23:33):
five miles apart. So the lowest to the highest and
in between is this thing called Death Valley. And they
hold the race in July. And Death Valley is the
hottest place on Earth. So the hottest temperature ever recorded
was just over one hundred and thirty four degrees and
that was in Death Valley and bad water, and this
(23:54):
race is otherworldly. The heat out there is you just
can't describe it. You need to go out there and
just even get out of your car, you know, when
it's one hundred and twenty or one hundred and twenty
five degrees and feel that heat. And it's unimaginable that
someone could run across you know, Death Valley one hundred
(24:14):
and thirty five miles in that heat. But every year, yeah,
a group of people do it.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah wow, yeah, bad waters. Yeah, I'm okay if I
never do that one. So any others that you stick
out when you think about your history a long history
of unbelievable accomplishments, is there are there anything else that
that in your mind? You say? Okay, I'll always remember
that above all.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Ah. You know, I've run on all seven continents twice
and one time I did a race it's called the
Four Deserts. I don't know if you know about the
Four Deserts Four Deserts Challenge. So these are six day,
two hundred and fifty kilometer races. So there's stage races
(25:05):
and they're what you call self supported, so you have
to carry everything you need. You get water at night,
and I'll heat the water for you, so you know,
because you carry breeze dried food. But those are really
grueling races because they're in the hottest, the driest, the windiest,
and the coldest places on Earth. The first race is
(25:26):
in the Atacama Desert, which is the driest place on Earth.
It's in South America. The second race was in the
Gobi Desert in Central Asia, which is the windiest place
and also the most radical temperature changes. I mean, I
remember the one day the temperature changed seventy five degrees
throughout the course of a day, so you know, it
(25:49):
went from being very hot to below freezing and you're
sleeping at night in a tent, you know, on the ground.
The next one is the Sahara Race, which is the
race across the Sahara Desert and you know, the sand
is up to your knees, right. And then the final
race is in Antarctica, which is you know, very very cold,
(26:10):
very difficult to run in terrain with the deep snow.
So I did the all four deserts in one year.
I was the first person to do all the races
in one year. And they take the it's like the
Tour de France. They take the your cumulative it's it's
the same with the seven seven contents seven marathons. Whoever
(26:31):
has the lowest time for all seven is the champion.
Right yeah, yeah, so so I won that. Yeah, that
was that was incredible. Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, I could talk to you all day about this
list of accomplishments. It's just incredible. I'm seeing one hundred
and forty eight miles in twenty four hours on the treadmill.
Twenty four hour treadmill run in Times Square. Yeah, that
was in Times Square. Incredible. So so many accomplishments. Now,
(27:02):
let's talk about marathoning in general. Right, So marathoning exploded,
exploded over the over the years, and I remember, you
know when back when you right around the time when
you your first book was out early two thousands, two
thousand and fourists, it really was starting to climb in popularity.
(27:27):
And now it seems like it's more popular than ever
with social media. There was there was over a million
I think they said it was a million point two
entrance in the marathon lottery for London, one point one
point one or one point two million entrants in the lottery.
So marathon is getting much more popular, and you know,
(27:49):
social media is influencing it, and hype about the mate
the Majors is influencing it. So what would be your
advice to someone who wants to step up or is
even thinking about going from marathon running to ultra marathon running.
(28:10):
What are some of the differences that you would advise
to those people that's different from conventional marathon training.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, well, I mean there's you know, to unpack everything
you just spoke about. You know, the rise of marathon,
You're right, has been astronomical, and running in general is
the growth in running in all forms has really boomed
in the last several years. And I think that's that's
good for everyone. I think it's good for you know,
(28:44):
people that are making a living through running. It's good
for the environment because runners are typically pretty conscious about
the air they breathe. So I think it's really a
good trend we're seeing. It's also running is a very
healthy sport, you know, being Greek, and you know, knowing
the history of the marathon, studying the history of the marathon,
(29:05):
it makes me really proud to see the rise of marathon.
And I you know, I still I wish more people understood,
you know, the history of the marathon to celebrate it,
because there's no other sport on Earth that has such
a celebrated history, you know, yeah, I mean basketball has
got an interesting history, Golf is kind of interesting in
(29:26):
a way started with baseball, but nothing even compares to
a sport that started twenty five hundred years ago, you know,
and saved democracy essentially through this marathon. So you know,
Michael right now is to get you know, to educate
people about the history of the marathon. And one of
my books it is called The Road to Sparta. It's
(29:48):
literally just a history book about how the marathon began,
all the way from you know, four ninety BC to
the modern Boston Marathon. And people that read it say, wow,
it's just his given deeper meaning to running a marathon,
Like it's given me a sense of purpose. You know,
before I was just running twenty six point two is
(30:08):
you know, an incredible accomplishment. But now now that I know,
you know, what I did is part of this legacy,
it's it means so much to me. So anyway, that's
that's you know, that's the kind of a rant about
my greekness and my prop you know, my pride in
being a historian of the marathon and knowing the origin story,
(30:29):
the real origin story.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, and people are not aware of that is called
marathon because of Marathon Greece. Good. Yeah, no, I have.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
These running tours right, take runners to Marathon Greece and
they can't believe it's an actual place. And it's a
great place. It's a nice beach and you know there's
some nice Greek taverns there. But you know, to your question,
I think the first thing you want to do if
you're going to try an ultra marathon, if you're a
marathon or, I would say, is sign up for a
(30:56):
fifty k so you know that's it's it's about four
point eight miles further than the marathon. And people say, oh,
it's not that much further, but it is that much further,
right yeah. And I say, also, you know, don't don't
have a time goal. You know, your goal is to
finish the race. Try to run continuously if you can,
(31:16):
and that's going to mean slowing your pace, conserving your energy.
It teaches you how to go far instead of fast.
I think that the fifty k is approachable for a
marathon or and you know, once you finish the fifty
k you'll have a better sense of did you enjoy it?
You know, would you want to go further? You know
(31:40):
those sort of things. I mean, some people, you know,
they they'd rather stick with the shorter distances. They're kind
of over, you know, in the morning. If you will
a half marathon, you know, maybe two or three hours
and you're done. You know, you're home. You enjoy the
rest of your day. Other people like me, you know,
we like to do these three or four day races
where we're out in the wilderness, you know, ourselves for
(32:01):
many days, you know, and then kind of re emerge.
So it just depends on your internal workings. I guess.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, there's some people at some point in time in
the marathon life cycle, you become one of the people. Okay,
I want to stay with marathon and I just want
to try to go faster, or I don't really care
about going fast. I just want to challenge myself and
go longer. And some people fall into each camp, you know. So,
(32:32):
but the training, did you have any particular training mantras,
whether it be you know, there's this whole debate about
zone training, which zone you should train in, threshold or
aerobic or you know, volume wise. You know, some people
like to do one hundred mile weeks. Did you have
(32:53):
any particular training mantras.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
No, I mean, in hindsight, I and still even to
this day, I'm racing so much. I love racing. Yeah,
you know, I love the competitive challenge. I mean, I
love running just for the joy of running as well,
but I also love racing. You know, I love the camaraderie,
I love the you know, it gets the competitive juices flowing.
And I you know, throughout my whole career, I've kind
(33:20):
of been running these you know, these big massive races,
kind of recovering training a little bit in between tapering
for the next race and then doing another race. So,
you know, I'm one of those guys that just loves
to do a lot of races versus you know, there
are other people that choose target races, and you know,
(33:40):
they might have one or two target races a year,
and they're very focused on their training for this target race.
I've never been like that. Even when I was at
my prime, I was just signing up for a lot
of races and doing.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Them and using those races as your training as training.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, interesting, Yeah, I think a lot of people can
relate with that, or getting up in the morning at
four am is the thing that I still still hate. Yeah,
so interesting. So let's talk about So we just had,
you know, an exchange about marathoning and how is how
(34:21):
it's exploded over the years and the interests. Every year,
every other year we hear some news was there's some
article about marathoning, that it damages your knees, it hurts,
it has some osteo calastic effects, long term osteocolastic effects,
(34:46):
and they even talk about marathoning ultra marathoning, about burnout
in psychological impact. What are your thoughts about all of
this stuff? And in your life, someone who's run more
than run around the planet maybe a few times, so
circumnavigated the the diameter of the planet a few times,
(35:07):
do you see any of that in your I know
it's anecdotal and they always say, well an equals one,
but just from your own personal experience, do you see
any of those adverse consequences from running?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
No? I don't, honestly, I mean I see you know,
I think normal wear and tear with my joints. You know,
I'm not a young man anymore. I just turned sixty three,
So yeah, I have some ostere arthritis in my knee.
But you know, you look at other my peers, especially
from high school, and they're in a lot worse shape
(35:43):
than I am. And you know, I've run over three
hundred marathons and I've been doing this for three and
a half decades, so I you know that said, I
do a lot of cross training, and I've certainly shifted
the way I train as I've gotten older to you know,
I'm not doing one hundred two hundred mile weeks anymore,
that is for sure, training smarter and shorter, cross training
(36:08):
a whole lot, both with weights and cardio. So I'm
changing the way I treat myself as an athlete. But
if you want to look at a case study of
someone who's kind of just you know, had their their
foot on the throttle the whole time, you know, the
end of one, it's me. But you know, I've just
been NonStop, probably way too excessive, without a doubt, And
(36:33):
you know, I definitely I never I went through a
little bit of psychological burnout when I kind of just
was overtrained, and I think I went through some some
metabolic syndromes as well. From overtraining just you know, just
trying to rack up sheer miles per week and they
became like junk miles. It was so low quality, and
(36:56):
it took me a few years. You know, I think
my mid fifties was really a bad time for me.
I was you know, I lost all my leg speed.
I was exhausted all the time. But when I hit sixty,
I don't know, I got this renewed energy for some reason.
And it's not because of my age group. Like I
really don't care so much about winning my age group.
I think the only people who care about, you know,
(37:17):
winning the age group were people in your age group.
So yeah, I don't know what happened. I just hit sixty,
and I just got this renewed energy. I think my
body finally, you know that metabolic you know, low low testosterone.
I had low testosterone, I had low thyroid, all of that.
I didn't want to go into medication like I thought.
(37:38):
You know, people said just you know, you know, started
using uh like replacement there therapy for testosterone specifically, and
you know, I think that's it was kind of like
a lifetime sentence to me because you know, they said,
once you go on it you kind of got to
keep on it. And I thought, I'm going to just
use all the tools, you know, like hid training, all
(37:58):
the other things that I know, diet to naturally raise
my testosterone, and that's been successful. So you know, I
think honestly that running a fast marathon is probably very damaging.
I think running I think running fast for a short
(38:18):
amount of time like a five k or ten k
is great. I think running full on for twenty six
point two is brutal. And I think running slow for
one hundred miles is fine. I think, you know, I
think we were kind of engineered to run slower further
or faster shorter. But you know, the marathon is just
(38:39):
it is a grueling race and it just breaks you down.
And I really admire these people, like you know, I'm
in a place called Mammoth Mountain right now, which is
in California, and an idol of mine, Dina cast who's
you know, people don't she's not. I wish she was
more recognized because her career has been phenomenal. I mean,
(39:01):
she is raised phenomenal and she's still going strong. I mean,
Dina's in Australia right now. She's trying to run all
the majors in one year. She is to me, is
you know she she's lean. She looks breakable, but she's not.
She's unbreakable, and she's kept it up. So somehow she
has you know, had this marathoning, you know, very competitive
(39:25):
marathoning street going for for many decades, and so I
guess I'm not an end of one.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Right, you know, yeah, cast Joan Benoit. I mean there's
a lot of experience. I mean, look, if anybody ever
wants to do a study on this, especially on things
like bones and knees and things like that, I think
the bones and knees have been solidly debunked. But you
can just you know, we have we have now because
(39:54):
of the running boom, we have now runners large popula
of runners with twenty year plus twenty five thirty years
of long term running history. We have more populations of
those runners than at any time in modern history probably.
(40:15):
So all you need to do is take those athletes,
give them a dex a scant, compared them, compare them
to non runners, and then you'll see you'll see as
good or better bones and you know, bone mineral density,
bone mineral content than you know, a non runner. Right, So,
(40:38):
but I think your I think your spot on what
you said is interesting. I think the the burnout piece, though,
is something that I always.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Was very careful about, right the.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Oftentimes marathon runners will either burn out and just completely
crash and stop altogether, just stop forever, or they sometimes
will burn out relationships right there, they spend so much
time training and racing that they take time away from
other things that are important, like family or work things.
(41:12):
That's when you know that it might be it might
become deleterious to.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Life.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
But I think you offer some great perspective on how
to mitigate some of those issues. Anymore to say about that,
I think, well, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Think that you know, I I've kind of looked at
these population groups and looked at peer groups as well,
and you know, I've kind of noticed a trend that
there's not a lot of people like like Dina cast
or Joan or myself that have been doing it for
so many decades at at a fairly elite level. I mean,
what I've noticed is that, you know, most of my
(41:57):
peers are either injured or out and they don't run anymore. Right,
And the people that are setting like the sixties seventy
eighty age group records, they typically started running late in life,
so maybe they didn't have you know, all that you know,
all that cumulative pounding on their joints. But you know
a lot of the later you know, stage elites in
(42:20):
their you know, seventies and eighties started when they were fifty.
But that's not always the case. And we just talked
about two others. So I think that when you look
at a population and you say, is marathon and good
or bad? You know, the running part I think is
hard to isolate from the lifestyle part because you know,
(42:40):
runners are typically leaner, they typically are more conscious about
their diet, so there's a lot going on besides just
the running, holding that constant. But that said, it's a
great lifestyle. So once you start running, you know, your
everything about your life changes. And that's why I'm very
much an advocate for people taking up running and also
(43:01):
doing a marathon. A lot of people, even listening to
your podcast might say that's for you know, that's for
someone else. I could never run a marathon, and I
think that's why they need to run a marathon. I think,
you know, when you run a marathon, you proved yourself
that you're better than you thought you were, and you
can go further than you thought you could. And when
you accomplish a goal that you thought was impossible, it
(43:24):
empowers you to try other things in your life. Yeah,
and taking you know, taking it all in the net.
The net health benefits are just off the charts. I mean, yeah,
I always tell people the most important muscle in your
body is your heart. Right when you look at the
number of people who fall prey to heart disease, cardiovascular disease,
(43:47):
I think it's the number one killer of modern humans. Yeah,
when you net the cardio cardiovascular benefits against any of
the other muscular skeletal issue that could happen, it's just
not even close. The benefits are just.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Just off the charts. So but yeah, I think I've
been thinking a lot about that as well, that you know,
the total load, the total load on your heart over
a lifetime, and I just you know, want to be
able to continue. I'm probably about a decade younger than you,
but even still, I think I'm increasingly wanting to do
(44:31):
this as long as I can. And I think, you know,
so think of it as a you know, holistic from
health to you know, being able to enjoy it as
a recreational athlete. I'm increasingly looking at what is the endgame?
So so so you know, let's wrap up and talk
(44:54):
about what you're doing now. And so you talked a
little bit about some of the things that you're doing
now and still continuing to race. But I also want
you to weigh in on whether or not you think
about your quote unquote legacy. And you know, when we
(45:16):
think about Dean Karnassis, like I said at the beginning,
we always think about you as you know, the most
well known ultra marathon or and do you think about that,
how you're going to be thought about, you know in
fifty years from now, do you think about the legacy questions?
So I'll let you start with what you're doing now first.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, you know, now I'm actually dividing my time between
California and Athens, Greece. So, like I said, I'm one
hundred percent Greek, and I've been spending more and more
time in Greece. I studied classics as well, so I'm
probably one of the foremost authorities on the marathon and
the history of the marathon in the world. And it's
(46:03):
brought me a lot of like internal gratification to go
to marathon. I mean literally go to marathon where it
all began, and you know, look around and see how
little has really changed. If you know, come visit me
in Greece and I'll take you to marathon, You'll be
blown away. I mean, if this was America, you know
there'd be you know, a big national park. You know,
(46:26):
they'd be monuments. Marathon Greece is just marathon. Greece is
still this open beach where the Persians landed, you know,
in four ninety BC. So I'm living in Greece, you know,
studying a lot more classics, doing some Greek running. I've
got a company called Greek Running Tours where we bring
(46:47):
athletes over and we tour Greece on foot. So it's
not a competitive event. It's not like you know, seven
marathons and semi continents. It's just two foot. So, you know,
we visit Marathon, we visit Athens, uh, you know, we
visit a bunch of places in Greek history. And instead
(47:08):
of you know taking the car, uh, you know, or
a taxi, we run and you know it's we jog.
I mean, I think the longest day is about almost
you know, eight miles, but it's over five hours. You know,
there's you know, historical and cultural stops along the way.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And so that's that's that's also brought me a lot
of satisfaction because seeing you know, the people's eyes light
up when because you know, when you run a marathon,
it becomes part of the fabric of who you are.
I mean, you know, it's running becomes like the most
important driver in your life. It's it's as important as
any other element in your life. You know, all your
(47:45):
metals and so forth. And when you get this richer meaning, uh,
you know, it brings people to life, and that gives
me a lot of joy as well. So that's what
I'm doing. I'm you know, I'm at the end of
this month, I'm running six day, two and fifty kilometer
race in Greece. So I'm training for that. I'm in
(48:08):
Mammoth Mountain right now. I'm training in altitude for that race.
And then you know, I'm going to run the Athens
Marathon in November, and you know, probably a few races
in between.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
All right, you heard it. Den As has told everybody
to go visit him in Greece. So I heard that.
I am definitely going to take you up on that.
So you're going to be hearing from me. So what
is the name of the company again so I can
put their link to the in show notes.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, it's just it's Greek Running Tours dot Com.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Okay, grants. Yeah, listening to this right now, go out
there and check it out. Now on the legacy question,
you don't think about the legacy issue or the legacy
question where you rank all time with all the other
ultra marathon athletes out there.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Maybe when I get older, I'll start thinking about it.
Right now, just enjoying myself too much. So yeah, I mean,
you know, I know people look at me and maybe
some people look up to me, and you know, I'm
just trying to be the best Dean the dean can be.
So you know I'm true to who I am. When
I tell you I train like hell, I really do
(49:19):
train like hell. You know, when I tell you I
love running as much now as I did when I
first started, it's true.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
You know, when I tell you running a marathon hurts
me just as bad as it hurts the next guy,
it's true. I mean, it's tough work and I love it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think at least a documentary. I mean,
I think if you were to do a documentary, that
would be amazing. If maybe you can get someone behind
you on that, I think that would be incredible, not
only about what you've done, but also just your scholarship
of Greece and the marathon. That would be incredible.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Well, there's you know, there's a documentary about out my
running fifty marathons in fifty states is fifty Days. Yeah,
it's on YouTube. It's just I think it's called Ultra
Marathon Man.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, and it's good. I mean, the guy who did it,
he did a good job. You know. It's got its
own music and it's you know, it's interesting to watch
a guy run fifty marathons in fifty days in all
the fifty states. You know, you get to follo along
with the journey.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, excellent. Okay, all right, we're at time. I think,
what are some of the words before we go that
you'd like to pass on to the runners of the world,
the marathoners of the world who either know about you
or recently discovered marathony.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of quote to me, Yeah,
because you can do.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Your best one, I would love it.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
I mean, you know one of them is you know
you don't have to go fast, you just have to go.
So when you think of a marathon, you know it's
we all get the same metal, right, no matter if
you're uh the last, you know, if you're the DFL
dead fucking last, or you're the guy who wins. You know.
The other thing I say is, you know there's magic
and misery. I think you know, comfort is overrated. I
(51:13):
think we thought in Western culture, if we had every convenience,
every comfort available to us, we'd be happy. And we're
so comfortable we're miserable. So you know, embrace the suck,
get out there and struggle and then you'll feel your
most alive when at those at those tough moments.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah, agreed. So thanks so much Dean karnass all the
links to the books and Dean's travel running travel companies
in the show notes and maybe we'll have you on again.
Thanks again, Dean, I look forward to seeing you in Athens.
Run the record, Donny, I heard it, Yeah, absolutely, thanks
(51:52):
to Dean Karnasais the ultra marathon Man. Wow, it's been
full circle to be able to sit down and talk
to him. After the conversation, I reminded Dean that I
met him once back probably sometime in the mid two thousands,
right around when his first book came out, and I
(52:15):
heard about Dean car Nassis and the legends of his
all night runs. And you know when I started running
was a right around that same time, two thousand and two,
two thousand and three. And it's good to after twenty
years to be able to finally sit down and have
(52:38):
a conversation with him. And I do look forward to
being able to go out and run the original marathon.
Based upon the legend of Fidipities, a messenger in ancient
Greece ran from the Battle of Marathon to Athens to
(53:01):
announce the Greek's victory over the Persians, and that was
the beginning of the original marathon and the reason why
we call it the Marathon. So definitely am looking forward
to getting out there and doing that marathon as a
bucket list race. It's definitely not an easy course, right
(53:26):
The course is uphill from the ten k mark all
the way to the thirty one k mark and begins
in the town of Marathon, but it is a historic
event that finishes in the ancient stadium in Athens. Hey,
(53:47):
if there's anybody out there that wants to do this
with me and go out and run this with Dean
Carnassis next year, Yeah, reach out to me. Let me know.
It's also good to see that after twenty thirty years
of long distance running, Dean seems to be doing very
well and holding up very well. As we discussed on
(54:10):
the podcast, the often well over sold idea that you
can't do this long term and be healthy. So N
equals one, But we also have a significant amount of
(54:31):
analysis and research now even meta analysis, demonstrating that when
we look at populations, big populations of long distance runners,
the net benefits are far and away more overwhelming than
(54:52):
any of the much smaller examples of adverse effects. So
I'll leave you with that. I have some pretty great
podcasts coming up. Ruth Kevin Gedich, if you remember my
podcast with Andy Burfoot. He was convinced that Ruth kep'n
(55:18):
get its time that she set in a world record
in the world record run where she ran sub two ten.
He was not convinced that that was free in a
way of performance enhancement.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Back in July, Ruth Kevin Jeddak was provisionally suspended for
positive doping tests and it was positive for band diuretic,
which is a masking agent. So the governing body, the AIU,
(56:03):
is going through its processes of evaluation and disciplinary actions,
and I'm sure Kevin Gettige will have her day in
court as well, so we will see what comes of this.
(56:25):
But I do want to have a podcast on this.
I didn't want to do what a lot of podcasters
are doing and just shooting by the hip. I want
to talk with someone who can speak scientifically about what
happened and then the course of events that are happening
thus far. So look for that podcast to come shortly.
(56:48):
And thank you from Thank you for your time and
hope you enjoyed this conversation with Dean Carnassis. Thanks again.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Follow Tourizon Endurance Sport on Instagram, Facebook, Threads, and x
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become a member of our Endurance Institute or for complete
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(57:24):
dot tv.
The intersection of endurance, sport, health, fitness, and life, following
the evidence where it leads with the science of self
propelled motion. This is the Endurance Experience podcast, powered by
Event Horizon dot TV and hosted by Tony Rich.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thanks for joining me. I'm Tony Rich. Today I'm speaking
with Dean Carnassis. For many of you that are endurance enthusiasts,
that name should be familiar to you. He is the
author of the book Ultra Marathon Man, and he also
(00:45):
has four more books since that one. I will put
the links to them in a show notes. But you
know him as the record holder for the longest continue
us run, three hundred and fifty miles across three days,
(01:06):
and basically that's the longest that we've ever known of
any human running in a continuous attempt. He's also won
bad Water, the bad Water one hundred and thirty five
mile Death Valley Race, and he's run fifty marathons in
(01:32):
fifty states in fifty days. So I talked to him
about his origin story. I talked to him about some
of his most famous running accomplishments. That's very interesting. Was
a very interesting exchange. The accomplishments that he thinks were
(01:56):
the most challenging. We talk about the boom in marathon
running since he started running long distances and really getting
into ultra marathon running in the late nineties and early
two thousands, and he gives his perspective on how that
(02:17):
has taken off so vehemently over the last decade. Periodically,
there are touted adverse effects from running long distances. None
of them have really have held up to empirical evidence.
But I did post a question to Dean whether or
not he has experienced any adverse effects from being an
(02:44):
ultra marathon runner for so long. That was also a
pretty interesting exchange. We talk about some of the things
that he's doing with his company, Greek Running Tours, which
can be accessed at Greek Running Tours dot com, and
(03:06):
the fact that he's still racing and still running, and
finally we talk about his legacy in the ultra marathon
running sphere and whether or not he thinks about that.
Very interesting conversation and I hope to get out there
(03:29):
and run with Dean in Marathon Greece. So without further delay,
I give you Dean Carnassis, the ultra marathon Man. I
am on with Dean Carnasses. Thanks for coming on to
the podcast, Thanks for having me run by. Yes, So
(03:56):
there's so much I want to talk to you about. People.
People on this podcast will be familiar with who you
are and some of what you've done. You are probably
one of the most, if not the most famous ultra
marathon runner, and you've got a few books out Ultra
(04:18):
Marathon Man Run Running at fifty is that what it is?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It was actually one time I ran fifty marathons and all.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Okay, yeah, run fifty to fifty fifty marathons, fifty States
Runners High and twenty six point two stories of blistering
marathon performances and such. So, out of those four books,
which one do you feel it gives you the best
(04:51):
highlight of your life? Or do you feel like you
have another book in store for the future.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, I mean there's a saying an author's that you're
you're only as good as your next book. So I've
written five so far. I think my first book, which
was Ultra Marathon Man Confessions of an All Night Runner,
is still probably my favorite because it's like a coming
of age book, you know, like it's this discovery of
(05:20):
ultra marathoning. You know, walking out of a bar on
my thirtieth birthday drunk and deciding that, you know, I'm
going to change my life by running thirty miles right
then and there, you know, and and you know that
that night forever changing the course of my life. So
it's it's, you know, kind of the discovery of Ultra Marathon,
(05:40):
discovering of who I am as a person, which everyone
can relate to, you know, whether you're a man or
a woman, and whether you run you know, great distances,
or don't even run at all. So I think that
that book and the themes are kind of universal. And
then my most recent book is called a Runner's High,
and it's it's almost like a sequel to Ultra mathon Man.
(06:05):
So it's kind of like, you know, three decades later, Wow,
I still am doing this. I still love it.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Here the challenges and the obstacles that I'm facing. Here,
here's how running and Ultra Marathon has changed. Here's how
the world has changed, and here is how I have
changed as a person. And again, I think they're all
very ideaifiable themes for any human.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Right Yeah, and then I'm going to put the link
to all of those in the show notes so that
the listeners can can get them and you know, definitely
looking forward to the next one. And so I I
wanted to ask you about your you know, your origin story,
some of your accomplishments, and you know, some of your
(06:52):
thoughts on the recent explosion of marathoning in really across
the world. And I want to talk about the effects
that marathon running has on humans. Every every other year
we seem to get an article about ultra marathon and
(07:14):
marathon in general and the impact on the body and
psychology and everything like that, and then it gets debunked later.
But I wanted to get your opinion on that, and
you know, just some some information about what you're doing. Now,
let's start by going into your your origin story. Where
where did Dean Kana as a start and if you
(07:37):
can for the listeners, you know, talk about, you know,
how you got into whether it was school or sports,
or how did you get into running, and what type
of background did you have prior to getting into running,
whether it be in school and or sports.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'll start by saying that I'm one
hundred percent Greek and that my real name is actually Constantine.
So Dean is just a nickname I've used my whole life.
I don't know where I got the name Dean, but
my real name is Constantine. So you know, if you
look at my passport or my driver's license, you know,
people are shocked, like you're not named Dean. But anyway,
(08:24):
you know, Greece is the birthplace of the marathon, as
you might know, as as some of you listening might know.
And I remember when I was a little boy being
at these Greek festivals and seeing these old men from
Greece that would dance all night. I mean they were
they were dancing Greek, which is very acrobatic. I mean
(08:45):
Greek dancing is very physical. It's like a type of
run and you know, bending and so forth. And I
remember seeing these men and someone said to me, oh, yeah,
they're you know that these guys all run marathons. And
I thought, what's a marathon? And they said, oh, it's
a very long, very difficult race. And I said, I
(09:06):
think I want to try this, and they said, well,
the first man that did this, he died at the end.
I remember thinking maybe I don't want to try this,
but I ran competitively when I was in junior high
school and then when I was a freshman of in
high school, we won the cross country championships and I thought, okay,
(09:27):
you know, that's a great way to end my running career,
you know, going on a high So at fifteen I
stopped running, and you know, I screwed off for basically
fifteen years. I somehow, you know, got into college. Then
I went to graduate school, and then I went to
business school, and I had this very comfortable corporate job
in San Francisco. And on the night of my thirtieth birthday,
(09:50):
as I spoke about earlier, I was in a bar
with my buddies doing what you know a lot of
us do on our thirtieth birthdays. I was getting very drunk,
and at midnight I told him I was going to leave,
and they said, you know, hold on, let's have another
round at tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm
going to run thirty miles to celebrate instead. I'll never forget.
(10:11):
They looked at me and they said, but you're not
a runner, you know you're you're drunk, and I said,
I am, but I'm still going to do it. And
I walked out of the bar. And I'll never forget.
I didn't even know I'm running gear at the time,
but I had on these you know, these comfortable silk
boxer shorts, like these silk underwear. So I took off
my pants and you know, threw them down the alleyway
and just started stumbling south into the night, knowing there
(10:35):
was a town called half Moon Bay that was thirty
miles away. I was living in San Francisco at the time,
and I thought, just just run to half Moon Bay.
And you know, about ten miles down the road, I
started sobering up, and I thought, what the hell are
you doing? But something just felt right Tony. I felt like,
you know, I looked up and I remember seeing the
(10:57):
stars and the heavens. It was pitch black. I was
by myself and never had I felt so alive, and
it kind of hit me. It was like God spoke
to me, like, you know, Constantine, you're just your runner,
that's why you're here, and do what you love. I
hated being you know. I was sure I had a
great corporate job. You know, I had a fat paycheck,
(11:18):
I had stock options, a company car, you know, all
the all the perks. But I was miserable in my
job and I didn't like being a business guy. It
wasn't who I was, you know who I am. You know,
I most like running. So I thought, you're either gonna
you know, hit sixty and be very regretful that you
(11:39):
never you know, followed your passion, or you're going to
follow your passion. Maybe you'll fail, but at least you'll try, right,
And like I said, that was over three decades ago
and I'm still still running strong.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
How did you deal with the difference between I want
to really be a performing professional athlete versus I want
to be a recreational athlete and just do well at it.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, well, I'm I finished this thirty mile run and
I and I became a runner at that point. So
I'm like, okay, you know you used to love to
run when you're a kid, and let you know now
you still love it again. So I remember I was running,
you know, six or seven miles a day out to
the Golden Gate Bridge, and I thought it was a
badass because I was always passing people. You know, I
prided myself I'm being very fatt and one day I
(12:27):
was I was running home and if you know San Francisco,
you know, no matter where you live, you got to
run over hills or mouth, you know. So I was
running up this big, long hill to get to my
house and these two guys just blew by me like
I was standing still. I mean, these guys they looked,
you know, it was choking on their dust. I mean
there was. They were like a different species of human
(12:49):
and I thought, my god. And they had packs on
as well, and I thought what was that all about?
And I really wanted to talk to him, but they
just passed me and disappeared over the top up of
the hill, and I thought I'll never see him again.
But they were, you know, that next level fitness. Well,
I got to the top of the hill and those
two guys were up there and they were doing push ups,
(13:11):
and so I finally had my chance to talk to him.
And they weren't very talkative, but I said to him,
or you know, what are you guys doing and they said,
we're training and I said for a race and they
said yes. And I said, you know, is it a
long race? And they said yes. And I said, you know,
are the hills involved And one of the guys said no,
his buddy said, there are mountains involved. I'm like, oh, okay,
(13:34):
and they both got up and finished their push ups
and were about to run away, and I said, well,
you know, tell me about this race. How far is it?
And the one guy said, it's fifty miles And I thought,
holy shit, fifty miles, Like you know, we're the campgrounds
like or the hotels along the way, or you know,
how many days do you have to complete this? And
his buddy said, no, no, the gun goes off and
(13:57):
you start running and you you know, you you fish
when you cross the finish line. And his you know
is his friend kind of elbowed him, like, you know,
I if you crossed the finish line, kind of said,
implying that there's no way I could ever do this.
And and I said, what's the name of this race?
And they gave me the name of the race and
then they just ran off. So I went to the
(14:19):
to the library because you know, back then, there was
no internet. There was you know, we didn't have smartphones
or anything. There wasn't even a flip phone back then. Yeah,
And I remember I researched this race. I found out
about it, and I signed up for it. I remember,
you know, filling out my entry by hand, you know,
writing a check, a physical check, and putting in the
mail and then going to this race. And yeah, that
(14:41):
running fifty miles was excruciating. I can't even describe how
every cell in my body was just screaming in agony.
It was. It was the most difficult thing I had
ever done. And you know, I finished somehow I made it.
And I was in the like the medical head at
the finish and I was kind of wrapped in this
(15:02):
you know, milar space blanket, shivering. You know, somebody had
given me some soup or some you know, something in
the drink that was warm, and I was kind of
drooling on myself, just a complete wreck. And I see
those same two guys and they're high fiving each other, saying,
we qualified, we qualified. And I'm thinking, where'd you qualify
for the Insane Asylum And they said, no, we qualified
(15:25):
for the Western States one hundred mile endurance run. And
I thought, what one hundred miles like twice this far.
The guy's like, yeah, and you start at the base
of the ski resort the first five miles, or you
climbed to the very top of the ski resort, and
then you run ninety five miles through the mountains, and
I said, well, you know, where do you Where do
(15:46):
you eat? How do you eat? Where do you stop?
He said, you know, you eat when you run. I said, well,
what happens when it gets dark? Where do you sleep?
He said, no, you put on a headlamp and you
keep running. And he said the goal is to finish
in twenty four hours. You know, He's like, you cross
rivers at night, you know, you scale mountains, you descend
into valleys, and I just I couldn't wrap my head
(16:07):
around it. And the last thing they said before they
left is they looked at me and they said, hey, buddy,
you qualified as well. And when they said that to me,
I knew that I had to do this race or
never lived down that moment. So I signed up for
the Western State one hundred mile Endurance Run and that
was in nineteen ninety four. H and it was It's
(16:30):
an indelible impression upon me. I mean, I can remember
to this day exactly what the course looked like, the
people I spoke with, everything, I remember every every foot
of that one hundred miles from nineteen ninety four. It
was just such an awakening. And I finished the race.
(16:50):
I finished it under twenty four hours. I finished in
about twenty hours, and I thought, my god, this there's
power in this. Even though you know, you don't get
prize money. You get the you know, the same belt
buckle that everyone gets for finishing. I said, I think,
I think there's there's something here. There's some magic in
this that may be marketable and and maybe you can
(17:11):
actually make a go OFVID somehow, spreading the word to others,
uh and making the living doing just that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah. Wow. And then so then since then, you very
famously have completed the I think at the time it
was the record for the longest three longest run three
hundred and fifty miles over eighty hours, in forty four
(17:42):
minutes without sleep. Is that still the longest known consecutive run.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I think so, I you know, there, I think there
are people that possibly are going to break that record.
I mean, originally and I set out to run five
hundred miles NonStop, but you know, stopped at three fifty
because I thought, maybe someone can run five hundred miles,
but it's it's not me. But you know, that was
(18:13):
three sleepless you know, two sleepless nights, one third night
of kind of hallucinating as I ran. So it was
you know, it's it's not something you want to try
too often. You know. I still think that for me
running fifty marathons in all the fifty United States and
fifty consecutive days, I think that was tougher because it
(18:35):
just lasted so much longer.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Right, yeah, and so running continuously for three hundred and
fifty miles, I mean, I think that's that's what that's.
So that's a little over three days, right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So you're right, it was about it was over eighty hours.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, So that's really approaching the limit of how long
a human can go without sleep, I mean, and so
it's hard to see anyone ever. You think that will
be beaten eventually. Yes, I think so, I mean I
(19:17):
think so.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I mean there, I think someone just ran more than
three hundred miles in forty eight hours. You know, it
was a forty eight hour race. So you know, when
you when you do something like that, I mean, you know,
you pretty much pace yourself to run for forty eight hours.
But I'm thinking, okay, you know that that still gives someone,
you know, thirty hours to cover fifty miles. Maybe that's doable.
(19:42):
It's hard to say, you know, when when you're completely
tapped out, you know, even running another five miles and
thirty hours could be impossible. So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah, and that was you that that run was
about to foot What was it about. I'm looking it
up now, just online. It was about a fourteen minute
mile or that's pretty fast to run that long. So
(20:14):
I think you're right. I mean, we are seeing more.
I don't know if it's nutrition. People think it's nutrition.
People think it's hue technology. People think it's wearable technology
that is fueling humans to do more and more today
than say a few decades ago. But you think you
(20:36):
think the fifty marathons, fifty states in fifty days was harder? Yes,
what was some of the other things that made that harder?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Well, you know, running a marathon on its own is
pretty hard, right, you know, and then getting up the
next day, you know, you're you're sore either, you know,
the last thing kind of on your mind is to
run another marathon, and and so you know, just the
you know, the grueling nature of running fifty marathons in
(21:07):
a row. But not only that, there was the travel
that was involved. So yeah, you know it wasn't just
like I was running twenty six point two miles and
you know, going back to my house, showering and running
that same route the next day, which I think is
much more approachable. I mean I was getting in a
bus and traveling sometimes eight or nine hours to the
next state. So the travel and the sleep deprivation was
(21:32):
really grueling. And again, you know, I remember at marathon thirty,
I thought, I'm so wrecked. I don't know if I
can even get out of bed tomorrow morning. And I
still have to run twenty more marathons, right, So you
know that's just psychologically weigh so heavily on you. Yeah,
so a little not even close to not even a
(21:56):
tiny bit close to you. But I did the seven
seven seven seven marathons, seven continent, seven days, and that
was just seven and that, to me, I couldn't imagine
doing anything more than that.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
After that, I got the seventh. But you're right, the
sleep deprivation, how do I get my calories into my
body for the next one? The you know, everything in
your body screaming at you, what are you doing? Right?
So so I gotta get a little slice of relating
(22:34):
to what you just described. What about bad Water. So
you you won bad Water? How many times I've wanted?
I just won it once? Okay, I've been.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I've been first, second, fourth, and fifth. Yeah, so I've
run it ten times. Yeah, I actually i've run it.
I've finished it ten times. I've run it eleven times.
The first time it was a disaster. But yeah, you know,
have you ever done Badwater?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
No, just so people know, if you can explain to
people what bad water is, so someone who may not know.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, Badwater is the lowest point in the Western Hemisphere.
So it's in California. It's in the desert and a
place called Death Valley. And the idea of the Badwater
Ultra Marathon is to run from the lowest point in
the Western Hemisphere to the highest point in the contiguous US,
which is Mount Whitney. And that's one hundred and thirty
(23:33):
five miles apart. So the lowest to the highest and
in between is this thing called Death Valley. And they
hold the race in July. And Death Valley is the
hottest place on Earth. So the hottest temperature ever recorded
was just over one hundred and thirty four degrees and
that was in Death Valley and bad water, and this
(23:54):
race is otherworldly. The heat out there is you just
can't describe it. You need to go out there and
just even get out of your car, you know, when
it's one hundred and twenty or one hundred and twenty
five degrees and feel that heat. And it's unimaginable that
someone could run across you know, Death Valley one hundred
(24:14):
and thirty five miles in that heat. But every year, yeah,
a group of people do it.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah wow, yeah, bad waters. Yeah, I'm okay if I
never do that one. So any others that you stick
out when you think about your history a long history
of unbelievable accomplishments, is there are there anything else that
that in your mind? You say? Okay, I'll always remember
that above all.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Ah. You know, I've run on all seven continents twice
and one time I did a race it's called the
Four Deserts. I don't know if you know about the
Four Deserts Four Deserts Challenge. So these are six day,
two hundred and fifty kilometer races. So there's stage races
(25:05):
and they're what you call self supported, so you have
to carry everything you need. You get water at night,
and I'll heat the water for you, so you know,
because you carry breeze dried food. But those are really
grueling races because they're in the hottest, the driest, the windiest,
and the coldest places on Earth. The first race is
(25:26):
in the Atacama Desert, which is the driest place on Earth.
It's in South America. The second race was in the
Gobi Desert in Central Asia, which is the windiest place
and also the most radical temperature changes. I mean, I
remember the one day the temperature changed seventy five degrees
throughout the course of a day, so you know, it
(25:49):
went from being very hot to below freezing and you're
sleeping at night in a tent, you know, on the ground.
The next one is the Sahara Race, which is the
race across the Sahara Desert and you know, the sand
is up to your knees, right. And then the final
race is in Antarctica, which is you know, very very cold,
(26:10):
very difficult to run in terrain with the deep snow.
So I did the all four deserts in one year.
I was the first person to do all the races
in one year. And they take the it's like the
Tour de France. They take the your cumulative it's it's
the same with the seven seven contents seven marathons. Whoever
(26:31):
has the lowest time for all seven is the champion.
Right yeah, yeah, so so I won that. Yeah, that
was that was incredible. Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, I could talk to you all day about this
list of accomplishments. It's just incredible. I'm seeing one hundred
and forty eight miles in twenty four hours on the treadmill.
Twenty four hour treadmill run in Times Square. Yeah, that
was in Times Square. Incredible. So so many accomplishments. Now,
(27:02):
let's talk about marathoning in general. Right, So marathoning exploded,
exploded over the over the years, and I remember, you
know when back when you right around the time when
you your first book was out early two thousands, two
thousand and fourists, it really was starting to climb in popularity.
(27:27):
And now it seems like it's more popular than ever
with social media. There was there was over a million
I think they said it was a million point two
entrance in the marathon lottery for London, one point one
point one or one point two million entrants in the lottery.
So marathon is getting much more popular, and you know,
(27:49):
social media is influencing it, and hype about the mate
the Majors is influencing it. So what would be your
advice to someone who wants to step up or is
even thinking about going from marathon running to ultra marathon running.
(28:10):
What are some of the differences that you would advise
to those people that's different from conventional marathon training.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, well, I mean there's you know, to unpack everything
you just spoke about. You know, the rise of marathon,
You're right, has been astronomical, and running in general is
the growth in running in all forms has really boomed
in the last several years. And I think that's that's
good for everyone. I think it's good for you know,
(28:44):
people that are making a living through running. It's good
for the environment because runners are typically pretty conscious about
the air they breathe. So I think it's really a
good trend we're seeing. It's also running is a very
healthy sport, you know, being Greek, and you know, knowing
the history of the marathon, studying the history of the marathon,
(29:05):
it makes me really proud to see the rise of marathon.
And I you know, I still I wish more people understood,
you know, the history of the marathon to celebrate it,
because there's no other sport on Earth that has such
a celebrated history, you know, yeah, I mean basketball has
got an interesting history, Golf is kind of interesting in
(29:26):
a way started with baseball, but nothing even compares to
a sport that started twenty five hundred years ago, you know,
and saved democracy essentially through this marathon. So you know,
Michael right now is to get you know, to educate
people about the history of the marathon. And one of
my books it is called The Road to Sparta. It's
(29:48):
literally just a history book about how the marathon began,
all the way from you know, four ninety BC to
the modern Boston Marathon. And people that read it say, wow,
it's just his given deeper meaning to running a marathon,
Like it's given me a sense of purpose. You know,
before I was just running twenty six point two is
(30:08):
you know, an incredible accomplishment. But now now that I know,
you know, what I did is part of this legacy,
it's it means so much to me. So anyway, that's
that's you know, that's the kind of a rant about
my greekness and my prop you know, my pride in
being a historian of the marathon and knowing the origin story,
(30:29):
the real origin story.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, and people are not aware of that is called
marathon because of Marathon Greece. Good. Yeah, no, I have.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
These running tours right, take runners to Marathon Greece and
they can't believe it's an actual place. And it's a
great place. It's a nice beach and you know there's
some nice Greek taverns there. But you know, to your question,
I think the first thing you want to do if
you're going to try an ultra marathon, if you're a
marathon or, I would say, is sign up for a
(30:56):
fifty k so you know that's it's it's about four
point eight miles further than the marathon. And people say, oh,
it's not that much further, but it is that much further,
right yeah. And I say, also, you know, don't don't
have a time goal. You know, your goal is to
finish the race. Try to run continuously if you can,
(31:16):
and that's going to mean slowing your pace, conserving your energy.
It teaches you how to go far instead of fast.
I think that the fifty k is approachable for a
marathon or and you know, once you finish the fifty
k you'll have a better sense of did you enjoy it?
You know, would you want to go further? You know
(31:40):
those sort of things. I mean, some people, you know,
they they'd rather stick with the shorter distances. They're kind
of over, you know, in the morning. If you will
a half marathon, you know, maybe two or three hours
and you're done. You know, you're home. You enjoy the
rest of your day. Other people like me, you know,
we like to do these three or four day races
where we're out in the wilderness, you know, ourselves for
(32:01):
many days, you know, and then kind of re emerge.
So it just depends on your internal workings. I guess.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, there's some people at some point in time in
the marathon life cycle, you become one of the people. Okay,
I want to stay with marathon and I just want
to try to go faster, or I don't really care
about going fast. I just want to challenge myself and
go longer. And some people fall into each camp, you know. So,
(32:32):
but the training, did you have any particular training mantras,
whether it be you know, there's this whole debate about
zone training, which zone you should train in, threshold or
aerobic or you know, volume wise. You know, some people
like to do one hundred mile weeks. Did you have
(32:53):
any particular training mantras.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
No, I mean, in hindsight, I and still even to
this day, I'm racing so much. I love racing. Yeah,
you know, I love the competitive challenge. I mean, I
love running just for the joy of running as well,
but I also love racing. You know, I love the camaraderie,
I love the you know, it gets the competitive juices flowing.
And I you know, throughout my whole career, I've kind
(33:20):
of been running these you know, these big massive races,
kind of recovering training a little bit in between tapering
for the next race and then doing another race. So,
you know, I'm one of those guys that just loves
to do a lot of races versus you know, there
are other people that choose target races, and you know,
(33:40):
they might have one or two target races a year,
and they're very focused on their training for this target race.
I've never been like that. Even when I was at
my prime, I was just signing up for a lot
of races and doing.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Them and using those races as your training as training.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, interesting, Yeah, I think a lot of people can
relate with that, or getting up in the morning at
four am is the thing that I still still hate. Yeah,
so interesting. So let's talk about So we just had,
you know, an exchange about marathoning and how is how
(34:21):
it's exploded over the years and the interests. Every year,
every other year we hear some news was there's some
article about marathoning, that it damages your knees, it hurts,
it has some osteo calastic effects, long term osteocolastic effects,
(34:46):
and they even talk about marathoning ultra marathoning, about burnout
in psychological impact. What are your thoughts about all of
this stuff? And in your life, someone who's run more
than run around the planet maybe a few times, so
circumnavigated the the diameter of the planet a few times,
(35:07):
do you see any of that in your I know
it's anecdotal and they always say, well an equals one,
but just from your own personal experience, do you see
any of those adverse consequences from running?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
No? I don't, honestly, I mean I see you know,
I think normal wear and tear with my joints. You know,
I'm not a young man anymore. I just turned sixty three,
So yeah, I have some ostere arthritis in my knee.
But you know, you look at other my peers, especially
from high school, and they're in a lot worse shape
(35:43):
than I am. And you know, I've run over three
hundred marathons and I've been doing this for three and
a half decades, so I you know that said, I
do a lot of cross training, and I've certainly shifted
the way I train as I've gotten older to you know,
I'm not doing one hundred two hundred mile weeks anymore,
that is for sure, training smarter and shorter, cross training
(36:08):
a whole lot, both with weights and cardio. So I'm
changing the way I treat myself as an athlete. But
if you want to look at a case study of
someone who's kind of just you know, had their their
foot on the throttle the whole time, you know, the
end of one, it's me. But you know, I've just
been NonStop, probably way too excessive, without a doubt, And
(36:33):
you know, I definitely I never I went through a
little bit of psychological burnout when I kind of just
was overtrained, and I think I went through some some
metabolic syndromes as well. From overtraining just you know, just
trying to rack up sheer miles per week and they
became like junk miles. It was so low quality, and
(36:56):
it took me a few years. You know, I think
my mid fifties was really a bad time for me.
I was you know, I lost all my leg speed.
I was exhausted all the time. But when I hit sixty,
I don't know, I got this renewed energy for some reason.
And it's not because of my age group. Like I
really don't care so much about winning my age group.
I think the only people who care about, you know,
(37:17):
winning the age group were people in your age group.
So yeah, I don't know what happened. I just hit sixty,
and I just got this renewed energy. I think my
body finally, you know that metabolic you know, low low testosterone.
I had low testosterone, I had low thyroid, all of that.
I didn't want to go into medication like I thought.
(37:38):
You know, people said just you know, you know, started
using uh like replacement there therapy for testosterone specifically, and
you know, I think that's it was kind of like
a lifetime sentence to me because you know, they said,
once you go on it you kind of got to
keep on it. And I thought, I'm going to just
use all the tools, you know, like hid training, all
(37:58):
the other things that I know, diet to naturally raise
my testosterone, and that's been successful. So you know, I
think honestly that running a fast marathon is probably very damaging.
I think running I think running fast for a short
(38:18):
amount of time like a five k or ten k
is great. I think running full on for twenty six
point two is brutal. And I think running slow for
one hundred miles is fine. I think, you know, I
think we were kind of engineered to run slower further
or faster shorter. But you know, the marathon is just
(38:39):
it is a grueling race and it just breaks you down.
And I really admire these people, like you know, I'm
in a place called Mammoth Mountain right now, which is
in California, and an idol of mine, Dina cast who's
you know, people don't she's not. I wish she was
more recognized because her career has been phenomenal. I mean,
(39:01):
she is raised phenomenal and she's still going strong. I mean,
Dina's in Australia right now. She's trying to run all
the majors in one year. She is to me, is
you know she she's lean. She looks breakable, but she's not.
She's unbreakable, and she's kept it up. So somehow she
has you know, had this marathoning, you know, very competitive
(39:25):
marathoning street going for for many decades, and so I
guess I'm not an end of one.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Right, you know, yeah, cast Joan Benoit. I mean there's
a lot of experience. I mean, look, if anybody ever
wants to do a study on this, especially on things
like bones and knees and things like that, I think
the bones and knees have been solidly debunked. But you
can just you know, we have we have now because
(39:54):
of the running boom, we have now runners large popula
of runners with twenty year plus twenty five thirty years
of long term running history. We have more populations of
those runners than at any time in modern history probably.
(40:15):
So all you need to do is take those athletes,
give them a dex a scant, compared them, compare them
to non runners, and then you'll see you'll see as
good or better bones and you know, bone mineral density,
bone mineral content than you know, a non runner. Right, So,
(40:38):
but I think your I think your spot on what
you said is interesting. I think the the burnout piece, though,
is something that I always.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Was very careful about, right the.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Oftentimes marathon runners will either burn out and just completely
crash and stop altogether, just stop forever, or they sometimes
will burn out relationships right there, they spend so much
time training and racing that they take time away from
other things that are important, like family or work things.
(41:12):
That's when you know that it might be it might
become deleterious to.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Life.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
But I think you offer some great perspective on how
to mitigate some of those issues. Anymore to say about that,
I think, well, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Think that you know, I I've kind of looked at
these population groups and looked at peer groups as well,
and you know, I've kind of noticed a trend that
there's not a lot of people like like Dina cast
or Joan or myself that have been doing it for
so many decades at at a fairly elite level. I mean,
what I've noticed is that, you know, most of my
(41:57):
peers are either injured or out and they don't run anymore. Right,
And the people that are setting like the sixties seventy
eighty age group records, they typically started running late in life,
so maybe they didn't have you know, all that you know,
all that cumulative pounding on their joints. But you know
a lot of the later you know, stage elites in
(42:20):
their you know, seventies and eighties started when they were fifty.
But that's not always the case. And we just talked
about two others. So I think that when you look
at a population and you say, is marathon and good
or bad? You know, the running part I think is
hard to isolate from the lifestyle part because you know,
(42:40):
runners are typically leaner, they typically are more conscious about
their diet, so there's a lot going on besides just
the running, holding that constant. But that said, it's a
great lifestyle. So once you start running, you know, your
everything about your life changes. And that's why I'm very
much an advocate for people taking up running and also
(43:01):
doing a marathon. A lot of people, even listening to
your podcast might say that's for you know, that's for
someone else. I could never run a marathon, and I
think that's why they need to run a marathon. I think,
you know, when you run a marathon, you proved yourself
that you're better than you thought you were, and you
can go further than you thought you could. And when
you accomplish a goal that you thought was impossible, it
(43:24):
empowers you to try other things in your life. Yeah,
and taking you know, taking it all in the net.
The net health benefits are just off the charts. I mean, yeah,
I always tell people the most important muscle in your
body is your heart. Right when you look at the
number of people who fall prey to heart disease, cardiovascular disease,
(43:47):
I think it's the number one killer of modern humans. Yeah,
when you net the cardio cardiovascular benefits against any of
the other muscular skeletal issue that could happen, it's just
not even close. The benefits are just.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Just off the charts. So but yeah, I think I've
been thinking a lot about that as well, that you know,
the total load, the total load on your heart over
a lifetime, and I just you know, want to be
able to continue. I'm probably about a decade younger than you,
but even still, I think I'm increasingly wanting to do
(44:31):
this as long as I can. And I think, you know,
so think of it as a you know, holistic from
health to you know, being able to enjoy it as
a recreational athlete. I'm increasingly looking at what is the endgame?
So so so you know, let's wrap up and talk
(44:54):
about what you're doing now. And so you talked a
little bit about some of the things that you're doing
now and still continuing to race. But I also want
you to weigh in on whether or not you think
about your quote unquote legacy. And you know, when we
(45:16):
think about Dean Karnassis, like I said at the beginning,
we always think about you as you know, the most
well known ultra marathon or and do you think about that,
how you're going to be thought about, you know in
fifty years from now, do you think about the legacy questions?
So I'll let you start with what you're doing now first.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, you know, now I'm actually dividing my time between
California and Athens, Greece. So, like I said, I'm one
hundred percent Greek, and I've been spending more and more
time in Greece. I studied classics as well, so I'm
probably one of the foremost authorities on the marathon and
the history of the marathon in the world. And it's
(46:03):
brought me a lot of like internal gratification to go
to marathon. I mean literally go to marathon where it
all began, and you know, look around and see how
little has really changed. If you know, come visit me
in Greece and I'll take you to marathon, You'll be
blown away. I mean, if this was America, you know
there'd be you know, a big national park. You know,
(46:26):
they'd be monuments. Marathon Greece is just marathon. Greece is
still this open beach where the Persians landed, you know,
in four ninety BC. So I'm living in Greece, you know,
studying a lot more classics, doing some Greek running. I've
got a company called Greek Running Tours where we bring
(46:47):
athletes over and we tour Greece on foot. So it's
not a competitive event. It's not like you know, seven
marathons and semi continents. It's just two foot. So, you know,
we visit Marathon, we visit Athens, uh, you know, we
visit a bunch of places in Greek history. And instead
(47:08):
of you know taking the car, uh, you know, or
a taxi, we run and you know it's we jog.
I mean, I think the longest day is about almost
you know, eight miles, but it's over five hours. You know,
there's you know, historical and cultural stops along the way.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And so that's that's that's also brought me a lot
of satisfaction because seeing you know, the people's eyes light
up when because you know, when you run a marathon,
it becomes part of the fabric of who you are.
I mean, you know, it's running becomes like the most
important driver in your life. It's it's as important as
any other element in your life. You know, all your
(47:45):
metals and so forth. And when you get this richer meaning, uh,
you know, it brings people to life, and that gives
me a lot of joy as well. So that's what
I'm doing. I'm you know, I'm at the end of
this month, I'm running six day, two and fifty kilometer
race in Greece. So I'm training for that. I'm in
(48:08):
Mammoth Mountain right now. I'm training in altitude for that race.
And then you know, I'm going to run the Athens
Marathon in November, and you know, probably a few races
in between.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
All right, you heard it. Den As has told everybody
to go visit him in Greece. So I heard that.
I am definitely going to take you up on that.
So you're going to be hearing from me. So what
is the name of the company again so I can
put their link to the in show notes.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, it's just it's Greek Running Tours dot Com.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Okay, grants. Yeah, listening to this right now, go out
there and check it out. Now on the legacy question,
you don't think about the legacy issue or the legacy
question where you rank all time with all the other
ultra marathon athletes out there.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Maybe when I get older, I'll start thinking about it.
Right now, just enjoying myself too much. So yeah, I mean,
you know, I know people look at me and maybe
some people look up to me, and you know, I'm
just trying to be the best Dean the dean can be.
So you know I'm true to who I am. When
I tell you I train like hell, I really do
(49:19):
train like hell. You know, when I tell you I
love running as much now as I did when I
first started, it's true.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
You know, when I tell you running a marathon hurts
me just as bad as it hurts the next guy,
it's true. I mean, it's tough work and I love it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, yeah, and I think at least a documentary. I mean,
I think if you were to do a documentary, that
would be amazing. If maybe you can get someone behind
you on that, I think that would be incredible, not
only about what you've done, but also just your scholarship
of Greece and the marathon. That would be incredible.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Well, there's you know, there's a documentary about out my
running fifty marathons in fifty states is fifty Days. Yeah,
it's on YouTube. It's just I think it's called Ultra
Marathon Man.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, and it's good. I mean, the guy who did it,
he did a good job. You know. It's got its
own music and it's you know, it's interesting to watch
a guy run fifty marathons in fifty days in all
the fifty states. You know, you get to follo along
with the journey.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, excellent. Okay, all right, we're at time. I think,
what are some of the words before we go that
you'd like to pass on to the runners of the world,
the marathoners of the world who either know about you
or recently discovered marathony.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of quote to me, Yeah,
because you can do.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Your best one, I would love it.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
I mean, you know one of them is you know
you don't have to go fast, you just have to go.
So when you think of a marathon, you know it's
we all get the same metal, right, no matter if
you're uh the last, you know, if you're the DFL
dead fucking last, or you're the guy who wins. You know.
The other thing I say is, you know there's magic
and misery. I think you know, comfort is overrated. I
(51:13):
think we thought in Western culture, if we had every convenience,
every comfort available to us, we'd be happy. And we're
so comfortable we're miserable. So you know, embrace the suck,
get out there and struggle and then you'll feel your
most alive when at those at those tough moments.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah, agreed. So thanks so much Dean karnass all the
links to the books and Dean's travel running travel companies
in the show notes and maybe we'll have you on again.
Thanks again, Dean, I look forward to seeing you in Athens.
Run the record, Donny, I heard it, Yeah, absolutely, thanks
(51:52):
to Dean Karnasais the ultra marathon Man. Wow, it's been
full circle to be able to sit down and talk
to him. After the conversation, I reminded Dean that I
met him once back probably sometime in the mid two thousands,
right around when his first book came out, and I
(52:15):
heard about Dean car Nassis and the legends of his
all night runs. And you know when I started running
was a right around that same time, two thousand and two,
two thousand and three. And it's good to after twenty
years to be able to finally sit down and have
(52:38):
a conversation with him. And I do look forward to
being able to go out and run the original marathon.
Based upon the legend of Fidipities, a messenger in ancient
Greece ran from the Battle of Marathon to Athens to
(53:01):
announce the Greek's victory over the Persians, and that was
the beginning of the original marathon and the reason why
we call it the Marathon. So definitely am looking forward
to getting out there and doing that marathon as a
bucket list race. It's definitely not an easy course, right
(53:26):
The course is uphill from the ten k mark all
the way to the thirty one k mark and begins
in the town of Marathon, but it is a historic
event that finishes in the ancient stadium in Athens. Hey,
(53:47):
if there's anybody out there that wants to do this
with me and go out and run this with Dean
Carnassis next year, Yeah, reach out to me. Let me know.
It's also good to see that after twenty thirty years
of long distance running, Dean seems to be doing very
well and holding up very well. As we discussed on
(54:10):
the podcast, the often well over sold idea that you
can't do this long term and be healthy. So N
equals one, But we also have a significant amount of
(54:31):
analysis and research now even meta analysis, demonstrating that when
we look at populations, big populations of long distance runners,
the net benefits are far and away more overwhelming than
(54:52):
any of the much smaller examples of adverse effects. So
I'll leave you with that. I have some pretty great
podcasts coming up. Ruth Kevin Gedich, if you remember my
podcast with Andy Burfoot. He was convinced that Ruth kep'n
(55:18):
get its time that she set in a world record
in the world record run where she ran sub two ten.
He was not convinced that that was free in a
way of performance enhancement.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Back in July, Ruth Kevin Jeddak was provisionally suspended for
positive doping tests and it was positive for band diuretic,
which is a masking agent. So the governing body, the AIU,
(56:03):
is going through its processes of evaluation and disciplinary actions,
and I'm sure Kevin Gettige will have her day in
court as well, so we will see what comes of this.
(56:25):
But I do want to have a podcast on this.
I didn't want to do what a lot of podcasters
are doing and just shooting by the hip. I want
to talk with someone who can speak scientifically about what
happened and then the course of events that are happening
thus far. So look for that podcast to come shortly.
(56:48):
And thank you from Thank you for your time and
hope you enjoyed this conversation with Dean Carnassis. Thanks again.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Follow Tourizon Endurance Sport on Instagram, Facebook, Threads, and x
for training and nutrition programs and on demand learning. To
become a member of our Endurance Institute or for complete
archives of podcasts, log on to our website Event Horizon
(57:24):
dot tv.
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