Episode 381: Unmasking Mormonism

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The following presentation is Del Marvis Studio's production.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
You're listening to the fact Hunter Radio Network. Here is
your host, George Hobbs.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Welcome back truth seekers from around the world. It's time
for another edition of the fact Hunter podcast as we
record on this Monday evening, November seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
Pretty windy last couple of days. I think it only
hit the high forties today. But we got a lot
of work done here on the property, clearing out all
the branches and the old fences we've had stashed away

(00:37):
in the corners.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Of the property.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
We were able to get a like a thirty yard
dumpster dropped in the driveway, and we were able to
do a lot of spring clean up here in the fall.
But we'll be ready for the spring for sure, when
we get our new batch of chickens and plan everything.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
We're very excited.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
I hope everybody had a great weekend, and obviously we're
starting to get into that period where people get very
busy with Thanksgiving and a Christmas and for us again
this Saturday is our daughter's wedding, so very busy. Indeed,
this week pretty interesting subject and it's something we're definitely

(01:22):
going to have to come back to in the near
future and revisit because the depth of the subject was
look to be honest as many times, is much deeper
than we initially suspected. And you know, we're talking about
the Mormons, the LDS movement. We're talking about a movement

(01:44):
that started with a farm boy in upstate New York.
And I don't know how many of you folks have
ever been to upstate New York. It is certain it's
certainly nothing like Albany or I mean, you could consider
that that's more Western New York. I could, but you
get into Binghamton and Syracuse and Watertown. That is a

(02:05):
whole different world up there.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
But you know, the.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Story is, here's this farm boy in upstate New York
staring into a hat, and somehow all of that turns
into this religious corporate empire and it truly is and
it sits and again, depending on which report you look at,
over a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets, including

(02:31):
assets in Jerusalem. In Israel, they run their own investment
company on Wall Street and they quietly place its people
in Congress, in the courts, and within the security state.
We're talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints, which most of us knew. You know, we

(02:54):
called them the Mormons in our neck of the woods
back in the eighties into the nineties. We got the
knocks on the door out here in rural land. We
don't see too many people knocking on the door. Now,
let's be ford. I'm not saying that every aspect of
these folks are nefarious, right, I'm not attacking ordinary LDS folks. Honestly,

(03:18):
the rank and file that they're sincere, and I think
most of them are family oriented and they're very disciplined,
right with.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
All their rules.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
But the problem so much isn't the people in the pews,
it's the structure around it. The founder, Joseph Smith, right,
he went from treasured digging with a magic stone to
claiming he alone.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Could restore the church.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
And then his successor, Brigham Young if you know that name,
obviously b yu Brigham Young University. This guy took it
to a whole new level. He built a theiotocrisy in
the desert, He legalized polygamy, He preached some pretty dark doctrines,
and and again, these are the things we never get

(04:10):
taught in school. Right, this guy ran Utah like it
was his personal kingdom. And the secretive financial machine behind
the modern LDS church, especially Enzyme Peak Advisors, which runs
a portfolio of tens of billions of dollars while telling

(04:30):
members to keep paying their full ten percent tithing if
they want temple access. And yeah, I've been to weird
churches before where they encourage you like electronic tithing. You know,
you go into the office, they want you to put
in your bank account number, your routing number and set up.

(04:51):
I've been to churches who, you know, the tithing they
go around with the they call them the offering plates,
and the pastors like and I've been honestly, I have
been in a church the pastor looked at the offering plate,
said we can do better than that, and they passed
them around again. But they're serious about their ten percent tithing. Now,

(05:13):
we're going to talk about the history they don't lead
with in the missionary pamphlets. Right, We're going to talk
about the Danites, the early Mormon vigilante group that really
acted like a church sanctioned enforcement arm in Missouri. And
we're going to talk about the Mountain's Meadow massacre where
the Mormon militia and their native allies slaughtered a wagon

(05:36):
train of about one hundred and twenty men, women and
children in eighteen fifty seven and then spent decades trying
to shift the blame. We're also going to talk about
the Book of Abraham, this translation that Joseph Smith claimed
came from this Egyptian pap bride. You know that modern
Egyptian theologians later translated and found had nothing to do

(06:01):
with Abraham. But what do we do on this podcast?
Will always follow the money? Now, the LDS Church has
not released full US financials in nineteen fifty nine. Now
the problem is, and listen, many churches do not. But
most churches ninety nine percent of churches. I mean, you

(06:22):
have the the Catholic Church billions and billions of dollars,
you have the LDS Church billions millions of dollars. Even
the Methodists now they're barely keeping their head above water.
They don't have any reach like these folks do. Right,
so they have their investment arm and sign peak that

(06:42):
the SECS find just two years ago, the LDS we're
using shell companies to hide the size of their portfolio.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Right, And it kills me. These people who claim to.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Be you know, these christ like minded people hoarding billions
of dollars. Right by the way, there have been independent
analysis that now peg the church's total wealth in the
ballpark of two hundred and seventy five billion dollars. You

(07:20):
have to understand that rivals and even exceeds in many
cases these huge corporations. And then we'll get into why
Mormons are overrepresented in Congress and intelligence, why BYU has
become a quiet feeder into government and corporate pipelines. And
most importantly, I will touch on the theology itself. Why

(07:42):
is it's a different gospel than the one delivered you know,
to us. So this is about a whole lot, and
we're going to start with Joseph Smith. So again, if
you grow up on the missionary version of this story,
you know, here's Joseph Smith, this humble farm boy, confused
by all the denominations, and he goes to the woods

(08:05):
and he prays, and he gets a visit from God
the Father and Jesus Christ. Now later an angel named
Maroney shows him golden plates buried in a hill, and
he translates them by the power of God and boom,
the Book of Mormon is born. Now that's the official story,

(08:27):
let's talk about the historical one. Joseph Smith was born
in eighteen o five in Vermont and grew up in
a poor family that bounced around New England and upstate
New York. The area he lived in the Burned Over District.
It was full of revivals and visions and even occult
practices which are still quietly prevalent at that time, and

(08:48):
treasure seeking. Now, before Joseph ever claimed to be a prophet,
he was involved in treasure digging, and he used a
seer stone or a peep stone that he said could
help locate buried treasure or even lost items. Even the
LDS friendly scholarship now acknowledges that yes, Joseph really did this.

(09:14):
So what he'd do He'd put the stone in a hat,
He'd press his face into it and claimed that words
or images appeared.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Right.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
That's the same basic method later used to translate the
Golden Plates for the Book of Mormon hat stone and
dictated texts. Now, critics will argue that treasure digging was
the training ground. Once you've convinced people you can see
into the earth with a stone. It's a short hop
to God chose me to restore the true Church and

(09:44):
to reveal the new scriptures. Now in the missionary pamphlets,
the first vision is simple. It's eighteen twenty Joseph praise God,
the Father and Jesus appear bodily and tell him all
churches are corrupt. But historically Joseph gave differing accounts of
this version over time. Early versions mentioned just a single

(10:08):
heavenly passage or an angel. Later accounts clarify the Father
and the Son together, and the story grows in detail
as the movement matures and as Joseph claims about his
own authority rise.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
So you know, this is a.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Huge red flag when someone's founding vision evolves over time
to elevate their personal status. At a minimum, you're looking
at a very fluid relationship with the truth. Right then
we get the Golden Plates narrative. According to Smith, an

(10:45):
angel directed him to a hill near his home where
metal plates inscribed in reformed Egyptian were buried those pesky
Egyptian tablets in the northeast. He claimed to translate them
into the Book of Mormon around eighteen twenty nine or
eighteen thirty. Now here's what's interesting. Joseph never let anyone

(11:06):
else examine the plates. The famous witnesses, the three witnesses
and eight witnesses later had complicated relationships with Joseph.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
And the church.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
At least some of them eventually left or were excommunicated,
probably because they didn't stick with the story. Even at
one point, one of the key witnesses admitted his experience
was visionary rather than physical, saying he saw them with
a spiritual eye, which he was probably manipulated and told
to believe that again if there were any other nineteenth

(11:45):
century claimant, saying, I alone can see this artifact, and
if you doubt me, you're fighting God. We'd all call
it what it looks like, a fraud. And to this
day we still scratch our heads, the Robert Tilton's and
Benny Hins and the Joel Osteins.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Is it just people are so desperate.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
They'll cling to anything if somebody looks good and smiles
at them and promises them prosperity. So after publishing the
Book of Mormon, Joseph organizes the church in eighteen thirty,
and he moves the center of gravity to Kirtland, Ohio,
there he builds a temple, he expands the hierarchy and

(12:29):
introduces new priesthood offices. But this is when you start
seeing other things. You start seeing an illegal or unchartered bank,
you could call it the Kirtland Safety Society, which collapses
and wipes out many believers financially. And that brought growing
dissent because people started questioning this guy's handling of money

(12:53):
and power, and then began the early whispers of polygamy,
which Joseph is already practicing privately while publicly denying that
such a doctrine exists. So you know, those patterns never
really go away. So when things finally fall apart in Ohio,

(13:18):
Joseph looks to Missouri as the promised Land. He calls
it Zion right, and the conflict with non Mormon settlers explodes,
and out of that pressure cooker comes a secretive group
known as the Danites, and they're organized around eighteen thirty eight,
and even the church's own historical essays acknowledge that they

(13:40):
were a brotherhood of Mormon men in Missouri, and they
acted as an internal enforcement arm dealing with dissenters and
sometimes non Mormon neighbors.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Now Historians quote.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Unquote debate exactly how much Joseph personally directed every Danite action,
but they generally agree that he approved of the group
and that it operated within the context of his leadership.
So you're less than a decade into this movement and
you got money schemes gone bad, you have violent conflicts

(14:16):
with neighbors, and now you have a secret band of
loyalists enforcing order, all in the name of God. That's
not the New Testament, church man. That is you can
call it proto theocracy. So now they're driven out of Missouri.

(14:36):
Joseph and the Saints' Ree group in Illinois and they
build the city of Nauvu on the Mississippi River, and
he secures an unusually generous city charter, and he sets
up his own militia, the Navu Legion, and he becomes mayor,
and he centralizes power within his own hands. Now, you know,

(14:57):
this is his third city, and this guy must have
had a lot of charm, and he must have had
enough cash to buy off the local mayors or the townfolks,
because he just moves from town to town and he
keeps on going.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Right, So.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
While all this is going on, the polygamy is expanding
even more. At this point, Joseph begins marrying multiple women,
including some already married to other men and some very young.
What do you call your hives? What do you call
your wife's husband, your husband in law? That is just weird.

(15:42):
A number of his close associates later testify that he
taught plural marriage as a revelation from God. Publicly, he
and church leaders deny that polygamy is being practiced, even
as the inner circle is well deep into You know,

(16:02):
you can only even in the eighteen hundreds and get
away with those kind of things for so long, and
it became impossible to hide. And it came to the
point when dissenters in Navu print a newspaper exposing polygamy
and raising alarms about political power. So Joseph does what

(16:28):
Lincoln would do a decade or two later. He destroyed
the press, and that act is one of the sparks
that lead Illinois authorities to move in against him.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
So it's also in.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
This later period that Joseph runs for President of the
United States. He organizes the Secret Council of fifty to
consider a theocratic kingdom of God on earth, and he
preaches increasingly radical doctrines about God once being a man
and men among God's ideas that will later be developed

(17:10):
more under Brigham Young. Now, I've seen this multiple times
where a young charismatic church leader pastor catches fire. You know,
we could point to Greg Locke, right, somebody who was
admired by many people in twenty twenty. He had a

(17:33):
church in a tent and I believe it was Tennessee,
forgive me if I'm wrong, and the revival starting getting
bigger and bigger, and it went to his head and
ended up cheating on his wife, marrying his secretary. And

(17:55):
I think that's just what happens, you know, I think
most of these people, well I don't know about this
guy with his lies, or maybe he was just some
people are not all there, right, let's call it what
it is. But a lot of people they get caught
up in the fame and standing up on that stage
and the lights on them and looking down and seeing,

(18:17):
you know, a thousand people tell you how awesome you are.
If you're not careful, if you're not grounded, it can
go to your head.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Right. So here's this guy.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
He builds a semi autonomous city, commands his own militia,
runs a private bank, secretly takes dozens of wives, destroys
a printing press that criticizes him, then runs for president
while forming a shadow council to plan world governments. So

(18:49):
if that's not cult leader meets aspiring theocrat, I don't
know what is. So fast forward to eighteen forty four,
after the destruction of the now exposed her the press,
and the rising tension, he submits to arrest and is
held in Carthage Jail with his brother Hiram. At that point,

(19:12):
a mob storms the jail and kills the both of them. Now,
what the problem is In many cases, when you kill people,
they become martyrs and their voice gets louder than they
were while they were alive. And that's what happened. I mean, listen,

(19:32):
he was in jail.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
In serious charges, right.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
He you know, his decision to use state power to
destroy free press. Now there's also eyewitness accounts said that
he was firing a pistol during a melee, returning fire
as the mob attacked. You know, you know, you can

(20:02):
argue that he didn't get his due process. We know
that justice was a lot different. One hundred and seventy
years ago. Right, people saw things differently, and he certainly
was someone who abused power and his position. Again, not
saying he deserved to die, but I'm not sure we

(20:23):
know the whole story. When you start getting into dozens
of wives and those wives are married, you're asking for trouble,
That's all I can say. Right, But from a Christian perspective,
you know, martyrs die for the gospel they preach, and
that's where it gets skewed, not for running an illegal bank,
not for destroying printing presses and hiding polygamy while consolidating power.

(20:46):
So now you have the fallout. You have this movement
built on a shaky foundation. He's dead at thirty eight, right,
interesting number. He claimed to restore the one and only
true church, right. He produced new scriptures that can't be
independently verified. He led people into repeated financial and physical disasters,
built a city and a state militia. And again when

(21:08):
he died, I think he had upwards of forty wives.
So the foundation, as broken as it was, was there.
And that's when Brigham Young inherits it and he amplifies
it in Utah. But I mean it really multiplies more polygamy,
harsher rhetoric, blood atonement, style of preaching, and the kind

(21:31):
of militant culture that eventually produces the Mountain Meadows massacre.
We'll get to that, but before we talk about massacres
and Danites and Wall Street portfolios, we have to keep
one big question on the table for our Christian listeners.

(21:51):
If the roots are corrupt, if the founding profits record
looks like this, how trustworthy is the fruit? And you
know Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits
and listen. When the roots are fraud and secrecy and manipulation,
the fruit will eventually show it. And whether that's in

(22:13):
the theology, the money, or abuse of power. Right, So
moving on, we're going to talk about Brigham Young the
Desert theocracy.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Right.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
So, Joseph Smith dies in eighteen forty four, and when
he died, the one thing there was no clear succession plan.
There was at least three or four men who claimed authority.
You had Signey Rigden, who was his counselor, you had
a gentleman by the name of James Strang who later

(22:46):
actually produced a letter allegedly naming him successor. Then you
had Joseph Smith's family and the quorum of the Twelve
Apostles led by Brigham Young. Now here's what's remark arkable.
Early LDS journals record that during a pivotal meeting in Nauvoo,

(23:06):
members said Brigham appeared to look and sound like Joseph.
So whether you believe that or not, we'll leave that
up to the listener. But from that point on, Brigham's
goal is simple, survive, consolidate, and build Zion in the wilderness,
and listen. He will do anything to pull it off.

(23:31):
So after a while, Illinois turns hostile. They burned another bridge.
So what he does is Brigham Young organizes what he
calls the Saints to leave the United States entirely. Now
remember not to a new state, leave the country. Remember
pardon me. At that time, Utah is Mexican Mexican territory, right.

(23:57):
So this is when Brigham Young's true power emerges. He
coordinates wagon companies, supply lines, advanced parties. Who is a
very smart logistical guy. He dictates routes and schedules and
survival strategies, and he considers himself not just a quartermaster
but a prophet. And when the first Vanguard Company reaches

(24:20):
the Salt Lake Valley in eighteen forty seven, Young reportedly
looks over the barren desert and declares, this.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Is the place right.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
So once in the valley, he decides to build a
church run state, not metaphorically literally, so Brigham Young becomes
the governor, the profit of the church, the commander of
the Navu Legion, which is again the Mormon militia, the
chief judge in many disputes, distributor of land and resources.

(24:56):
So he's building this society that they take church tithing
funds and use them for public projects.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
How would you feel.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
If you went to church on Sunday and you tithe
and you're like, you know, you hear the pastor say,
what a wonderful tithing today. We're gonna fix the potholes
on I ninety five with this money, and everybody's going
to say what. So the church tithing is actually funding
public projects. The church authority decides on land allocation, the

(25:32):
militia enforces community discipline which sounds a little bit like
Islam right or even Noahigh law, and settlers take loyalty oaths.
This is in no way, shape or form a separation
of church and state. It is the fusion of both
under one single man, and that man was Brigham Young.

(25:54):
He even initiates the state of Desiree, and that was
a proposed Mormon nation span in Utah, Nevada, even parts
of California, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, and Wyoming. This guy was
ready to form his own country. And their map of
Desiree is huge. They wanted a quarter of the American
West as the Mormon homeland. And of course at that

(26:18):
point the US government steps in and says, I don't
think so. So you know, back to polygamy, right. We know,
for the most part, Joseph practiced polygamy in secret. Brigham
he didn't have time for that. Brigham Young had fifty

(26:41):
five wives, give or take a few, you know, depending
again on the historian, most people agree that he had
fifty seven children. Like you telling me you can remember
the name of all your wives and all your children? Wow,
better memory than me. Under his leadership, man, there's we

(27:03):
must have gone broke. On birthday presents, polygamy becomes a pillar.
Polygamy becomes a pillar of LDS identity. Leaders preach that
plural marriage it's not important, but it's essential to exaltation. Right,
the idea that men become gods, families become massive, interconnected

(27:26):
political networks, and polygamy wasn't fringe. It was the social fabric.
It was the economic and political structure. Most high ranking
men took up multiple wives. It wasn't just a quirk.
It was the engine that the LDS was built in Utah.

(27:50):
Now this is the part where things get a little dark.
Brigham Young preached something a doctrine historians later call blood atonement.
So here's the idea. Some sins are so severe that
Christ's sacrifice does not cover them.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
A sinner must have.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Their blood literally shed to a tone. Now, I'm gonna
pause for a second in my notes and just let
you know that anybody who tries to tell you have
to do something to earn salvation, you cut them off immediately.
There is nothing any You can walk a thousand old
ladies across the street. You can catch a nuclear missile

(28:32):
before it hits the ground. You are saved by grace
through faith. That's it, okay, But not bring them young, now,
you that's too much for Jesus. You're gonna have to
blood atonement right now, this is one of the bigger

(28:55):
arguments within the history of the LDS Church. People say,
did they formally practice this? Well, officially no, but historically
many historians said, yes, this took place. Many did. Now listen,
there are sermons recorded We're not on audio obviously, but
written down where Brigham says that executing and unrepentant sinner

(29:18):
could save his soul. Okay, I'm going to say this
one more time. There are sermons that are recorded pen
to paper where Brigham Young says that executing an unrepentant
sinner could save his soul. There are even many frontier
era accounts, some reliable, some disputed, of extra judicial killings

(29:39):
among the Saints, justified through rhetoric that matches blood atonement teaching.
You know, what we're offering here, what we're saying here
is that Brigham Young, this guy whose name bears one
of the wealthiest colleges in the world, fostered a climate

(30:03):
where violence could be framed as divine justice, especially against
apostates or traders. And it's precisely this climate that feeds
into what happens at the mountain meadows. Okay, and that's
coming up here in a minute. So, by the way,

(30:25):
under Brigham Young, the DS Church institutes a ban on
black men receiving the priesthood, black members participating in temple rituals.
And this lasts, oh, George, that was only a few years.
It lasted from eighteen fifty two to nineteen seventy eight,
so one hundred and twenty six years. You see Brigham

(30:46):
Young preach that black people descend from Kin and Ham,
they bear a divine curse, and that they should be
segregated until the millennium reign. And again, this isn't fringe,
this isn't debatable.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
This was the.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Official LDS teaching for over a century. That's just the fact.
And then there's the Utah War. By the mid eighteen fifties,
you know, all the reports were coming out of Utah
describing this rogue theocratic regime. You know, think of apocalypse

(31:21):
now right. You've got polygamy, you've got dissent, you've got
church run courts, you've got church money going for public projects,
you have militia intimidation.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
It's just straight gangster.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Exactly what it is called what it is, it was
straight gangster. So you have President James Buchanan. He sends
twenty five hundred federal troops to unseat Brigham and install
a new territorial governor. Now Brigham responds by mobilizing the
Navu legion and declaring martial law and for months, the

(31:59):
US army it's seven hundred miles from supplies in a
standoff with a religious kingdom in the mountains. Now Brigham
Young would call it a test of the saint's loyalty.
Washington DC called it in subordination. We call it the
Utah War, one of the weirdest, you know, strangest standoffs

(32:20):
in American history. It ends peacefully, thankfully, but the distrusts, paranoia,
and isolation. It really set the stage for the single
darkest chapter in Mormon history, and that's the Mountain Meadows massacre.

(32:44):
And let's get into that now. So we need to
talk about something that's you know, darker, and a lot
of people don't know about this about the Mormon history.
So that to night, mindset, mindset, say that three times
fast a holy enforcer mentality that showed up first in Missouri,

(33:07):
as we discussed, right, and this is how that same
US versus them culture that was baptized in Brigham's war
rhetoric ends in one of the worst civilian massacres on
American soil, and that says a lot, because we've had
a few. Right, it was the Mountain Meadows Massacre of

(33:29):
eighteen fifty seven. So back in Missouri in eighteen thirty eight, again,
some of the Saints organize a group called the Daughters
of Zion or the Danites, and even the church's own
history page now admits their objectives was to defend the
community and intimidate dissenters and hostile massurians.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Now, the historians, if you do a.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
Little research, they'll call them vigilantes paramilitary initially formed to
purge internal descent, right to quell any uprising people who
questioned Joseph Smith's leadership. Then they deployed in conflicts with

(34:15):
non Mormon neighbors during the Missouri Mormon.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
War of eighteen thirty eight.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Right, and you know they acted as bodyguards for leadership,
the muscals the muscle for church decisions, on and on,
and membership lists over time include the names that become
legendary in the LDS folklore. You have poor to Rockwell,
Bill Hickman, and others who later surfaces destroying angels in

(34:40):
the Utah period, Right, so again you've got this persecuted group,
a charismatic prophet, and a secretive inform in arm that
believes it's doing God's work by intimidating and attacking enemies,
even when the informal d anetes supposedly dissolve the idea doesn't.

(35:05):
You can bury the name, but you really can't always
bury the mindset. So fast forward to Utah. You know
how local bishops doubling as militia officers. You have church
courts and civic courts intertwined. So you get to the
mid nineteen fifties, Utah is a simmering powder keg you've got.

(35:29):
You know, we talk about the Reformation often on this
podcast in the fifteen hundreds, but there's something called the
Mormon Reformation, and that was a religious crackdown led by
Brigham Young and other leaders. They were pushing rebaptisms, which
I'm sure you got for nine dollars and ninety five cents, right,

(35:51):
fiery sermons about sin, which listen, you know, as long
as you back end it with the Gospel and you're
not manipulating people. But he also included things like vengeance
and loyalty. There's only one person you should be loyal to.
And then we talked about the blood atonement rhetoric, the

(36:12):
Utah War nineteen fifty I'm sorry, eighteen fifty seven to
eighteen fifty.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Eight, and it's you know, by.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Eighteen fifty seven, Southern Utah.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Is on the edge.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
You've got the rumors of the federal armies marching, you
have orders to stockpile grain. Right, they were like preppin.
They were told to harass or burn supply trains, and
a drum beat from Salt Lake that Zion is under siege.
So it's that atmosphere that a wagon train from Arkansas

(36:48):
starts rolling toward California, and they had no idea what
they were walking into. And that group became known as
the Baker Fancher wagon Train. There was one hundred and
twenty to one hundred forty immigrants headed from Arkansas to California.
They passed through southern Utah in the late summer eighteen
fifty seven. And during this time, right Brigham's telling his

(37:12):
local leaders to prepare for war, sermons ratcheting up the
rhetoric against gentiles, which when they use the term gentiles
they mean non Mormons, and memories of past persecutions in
Missouri and Illinois are being stoked. And there's other local
stories and accounts.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
But.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
The bottom line is by the time that train reached
the region around Cedar City and Mountain Meadows, local leaders
already see them as enemies, not tired travelers. And here's
the best historical reconstructions of what happened, and it starts,

(37:55):
interestingly enough, September seventh to September eleventh.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Those numbers, huh.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Local militia units of the Navo Legion from Iron County,
some disguised as Native Americans, launch an attack on the
Baker Fancher camp at Mountain Meadows.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
They expect a quick.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Route, right, They were just going to run through, rout
them and be done. But they didn't know these immigrants.
They dug in and they fought back, and it was
a five day seeds right, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven.
But over time, the immigrants they start to run low
on water and food and ammunition. Some may have glimpsed

(38:34):
white men among the attackers, realizing that these aren't just
you know, Navajo warriors, but some local Mormons and warpaint
and that realization is really crucial. Think about this, if
word ever got out that Mormon militia men slaughtered a

(38:56):
whole wagon train. You can bet that that territory is
finished in the eyes of the US public, and the
US government is probably going to roll in the regular army,
and all bets would have been off at that point.
So here's what happened. The local militia leaders devise a plan,
so they raise a white flag. Right, we give up.

(39:20):
So the militia members approached the camp under a flag
of truce, posing as rescuers coming to escort them to safety.
These are members of the Mormon Church. They persuade the exhausted, hungry,
and tired immigrants to lay down their arms, promising them protection.

(39:46):
Then comes the betrayal. The immigrants are separated into groups men, women,
and older children. They're marched away from camp accompanied by
armed militiamen. At a pre arranged signal, the Mormons and
their allies turn on the defenseless emigrants and massacre them

(40:08):
at close range, shooting them and stabbing them to death.
So by the end, about one hundred and twenty people
are dead, men, women, and older children.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Now they decided.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Because there were such good people that seventeen of them
the seventeen children who were aged six and under were spared.
They were considered too young to tell tales, so they
quote unquote adopted them into local Mormon families. Now let's

(40:44):
be frank here. If we read this story about, you know,
this happening in the Middle East or in some third
world country, we would call it what it was, a
mass execution of disarmed civilians under a false flag of truce.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Right.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
That did not happen in the Middle East. That happened
in Utah. So immediately after the killings, local leaders move
into cover up mode. The bodies are hastily buried and
partially exposed by animals. Later, blame is publicly shifted into
the tribes with the Mormon involvement and minimized or denied.

(41:28):
And then, as we mentioned, the children are placed into
Mormon homes and the story is tightly controlled because they
controlled the media in that area, and nobody dared run
a story against Brigham Young. And for years the church
controlled newspapers and public statements downplay or deny Mormon responsibility.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Oh that's slander.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
But eventually the truth leaks out and non Mormon investigators
and army officers visit the site. Testimonies and rumors circulate
about Mormon militia involvement, and even the US press starts
branding Mountain Meadows as a Mormon atrocity, and eventually the
federal government wants ahead on a pike. The man they

(42:17):
choose is John D. Lee, a local church leader, a
militia officer, and the adopted son of Brigham Young. He
was tried twice, convicted in the second trial, and by
the way, he was executed by firing squad at Mountain

(42:38):
Meadows in eighteen seventy seven, the very ground where the
massacre happened. Justice was a lot different back then. You
can find I'm not telling you to do so, but
there are photographs showing him seated in his coffin facing
the place of the slaughter. LDS leaders excommunicate him and

(43:02):
for decades becomes the official villain. They hung the story
on him, one bad apple who supposedly acted without salt
Lake's knowledge. It's a scapegoat. It's classic scapegoating. Right, you
pin the crime on one man, you execute him and
declare the ledger balanced. Right, all the things that happen
in our history, they find one guy to blame it on.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
That's a rap.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
That is a rap. And you know what, we're going
to continue to We don't need to. That's the entire story.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
With that.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
But I want to talk about now is the theology
problem with the Book of Abraham and false gods, et cetera.
And something that may shock you if you don't know
it right, And that's the LDS Gospel is not the
Gospel of Jesus Christ. Okay, their God is not the
God of scripture, Their Christ is not the Christ of

(43:59):
the Bible.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
And some people may what.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
And again, the cornerstone of this problem is the Book
of Abraham and it's one of the most demonstrably false
scriptures ever presented in a religion claiming divine inspiration.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Let's talk about the biggest.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Red flag of all the doctrines. And again, many Christians
don't realize this, but this is an absolute mainstream LDS teaching. Okay, God,
the Father, who was once a man on another world,
according to LDS doctrine, has a wife, the Heavenly Mother.

(44:37):
Together they produce spirit children in the pre mortal realm.
Among those spirit children are Jesus and Lucifer. In the
LDS version of the pre Mortal Council, Lucifer proposes a
coercive salvation plan, and Jesus proposes a free will plan,

(44:58):
and God chooses Jesus and his plan. Lucifer rebels, becomes Satan,
and the war in heaven begins. That is the official
LDS cosmogony. It's in their manuals, it's in their prophet's sermons,
it is their temple theology. Again, just to be clear,

(45:20):
According to them, Jesus Christ and Satan are literal spirit
siblings born of the same heavenly father. Jesus is the firstborn.
Lucifer is one of the spirit children who rebelled. Yeah,
that is not Christianity. It's not even close what that is.

(45:41):
If you had to wrap that up into some type
of verbiage, you would call that a pagan cosmic myth
or just wrapped in biblical language. Okay, Jesus Christ is eternal,
like John one one and the beginning was the Word,
and the words was with God, God, and the word
was God. He does not have you know, on and

(46:04):
on and on. It's you know, it's hard to believe
when you hear this, right, but this type of theology
should shut the door on Mormonism for any believer. But

(46:25):
as they say, but wait, there's more. So the LDS
doctrine of God a man who became God. Now, Joseph
Smith would eventually teach that God himself was once as
we are now. He was once a man. A man
is God, once was as God is, may man become.
That is the heartbeat of Mormon theology. God the Father

(46:47):
was once a mortal man on a previous world. He
had a God above him. That God had a God
above him, on and on this infinite regression of deities.
That's not Christianity, that is polytheism on training wheels. Now,
let's talk about the Book of Abraham, right, and this

(47:10):
is where this to me, this is the LDS Achilles
heel if the other presentations didn't quite do it. So
here's what Joseph Smith claimed again. In eighteen thirty five,
he buys the Egyptian papyri papyrus from a traveling antiquities dealer. Right,
he says, God reveals that these papiri contained the writings

(47:34):
of Abraham himself, written in Abraham's own hand and translates, etc.
We've talked about this, right, But the problem is in
the nineteen sixties, the original documents that were thought lost
in a fire, they were discovered in a museum archive,
and all these Egyptologists from all backgrounds, including non Christian

(47:59):
scholars with zero anti Mormon virus bias, pardon me, translated
them and their conclusion was they were simply ordinary Egyptian
funeral texts dating two one hundred BC, fifteen hundred years

(48:20):
after Abraham, containing standard Book of Breathings and Book of
the Dead content. So nothing, absolutely nothing, and I say again,
absolutely nothing related to Abraham, nothing related to creation, nothing
related to pre mortal councils.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
So this just.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Matter of factly lays out that these translations are completely wrong.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
There is no gray area here.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
This isn't where we differ on interpretation, right, This isn't
about perception. This is Verify fraud and canaanized Mormon scripture.
So think about this. If someone claims God himself told
them that a piece of papyrus is written by Abraham,
and the papyrus turns out to be a first century funery.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Spell, what do you call that? Well, I'll tell you.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
If you look at Deuteronomy eighteen twenty two, it says
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord,
and the things follow not nor come to pass. This
is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken. Deuteronomy
eighteen twenty two. If the Book of Abraham collapses, so

(49:39):
does the prophet who wrote it, and the system that
he built right, and the salvation plan, and all of
it is nonsense. Let's talk about the money. Now, we're
going to move along. We're already fifty minutes in. Let's
look at the money. The tithing revenue base. Members of
the church are taught to pay ten percent of their

(50:01):
income is tithing.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Now.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
This is framed as a sacred covenant. The church itself
has said that tithing is more about commitment than about
the church's need for money. But here's some key points.
With approximately seventeen million members worldwide, even a modest average
income and ten percent tithing adds up to billions of

(50:23):
dollars of revenue.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Per year, and.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Revenue for lack of a better word, okay. According to
whistleblower allegations, roughly one billion dollars per year of tithing
and related contributions are directed into a reserve fund managed
by Enzigon Peak. The church continues to demand full tithing
payment for temple access, missionary participation, which is a huge

(50:48):
thing with them, right to recruit more people, which why,
you know, to be frank, that's why they're appealing to
the federal government, which plays a moral pressure on members
regardless of true transparency.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Around the finances.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
Now, from a Christian perspective, if the institution claims to
be the body of Christ concerned for the poor, the widows,
the orphans, what should we expect from their stewardship of billions.
Now with ensign Peak Advisors, this is where it really
gets remarkable again. They're the investment arm of the church

(51:24):
based in Salt Lake City. Now here's some facts. According
to the official church statement from nineteen ninety seven to
twenty nineteen, ensign Peak Advisors use thirteen shell LLCs to
file required SEC disclosures, thereby concealing the size of the portfolio.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
In February twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Three, the SEC charged APA and the Church for failing
to accurately disclose the size of the investments and using
shell companies. They paid a four million dollar penalty and
the church a one million dollar penalty. That's like a
lunch bill for these people, right, disclosers show quarter three

(52:07):
enzyme peaks twenty twenty five portfolio public reports reached about
sixty one billion dollars. Independent analysts estimate the church's total
invested assets about two to three hundred billion. So a
religious institution funded by mandatory tithing has built a private

(52:29):
investment machine with tens to hundreds of billions of dollars,
which most is not transparently disclosed to its average member.
It's really shocking. And by the way, part of the
money machine, it connects to other sectors higher education and
political influence BYU. And you know they have satellite groups

(52:52):
in was It, Idaho, Hawaii, and they even have one
in Jerusalem. And we'll talk about their connection with Israel
and Freemason a few minutes. But it's endowment benefit from
church financial backing, real estate holdings, and tithing derived resources. Now,
while exact figures are opaque, the institution is part of

(53:15):
the broader network of church power. This means leaders educated
in BYU or its affiliated institutions often go into government,
business intelligence, and even the church's corporate arms. The money flows,
the networks align and influence accumulates, so the money isn't

(53:38):
just sitting. It is doing work, but just like in
the mid nineteenth century, it's more than church. It's building malls, universities,
media outlets, publishing houses, insurance companies, real estate portfolios. But
it's a nonprofit hiding. The loopholes in this country are amazing.

(54:04):
And the thing that is shocking, and this is not hyperbole,
this is not conspiracy theory. Many of these ventures are
for profit funded by religious money. How how do they
get that loophole? How are for profit for profit corporations
funded by religious money?

Speaker 2 (54:24):
How is that possible?

Speaker 3 (54:27):
And there's been many whistleblowers and the claim for profit
bailouts linked to the Reserve Fund. So again, if an
institution demands tithes from faithful people while withholding full disclosure,
that is a moral mismatch, right, It's not good. So,

(54:52):
you know, we talked about the polygamy and all of this, but.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
I'm going to.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Skip ahead because we've already talked about much of this.
We talked about polygamy and death, but we need to
talk about now because I still want to read this
article by Fritz Springmyer who he wrote this article on

(55:19):
a website it was Conspiracy Theories dot Com back in
September of two thousand and three. It's pretty interesting there
was with the assistance of an ex Mormon. We'll get
to that, but I want to talk about why Mormons
dominate the government, intelligence, and bureaucracy, et cetera. And that

(55:43):
it's smaller than Catholics, Right, it's crazy, it's it's a
very small You know, about two percent of US adults
identify as Latter Day Saints. That is smaller than Catholics,
smaller than Evangelicals, smaller than mainline Protestants. Right, But they

(56:09):
have their own cultural call or on quarter across Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, Wyoming,
and Hawaii. They have a worldwide reach. They have a
culture that pushes education, language skills, clean living, right, and
institutional loyalty. That's why they transition so well to the government. Right,

(56:32):
they are obedient. As of the current one hundred and
nineteenth Congress twenty twenty five to twenty twenty seven, there
are nine Latter Day Saints in Congress, three senators and
six representatives. That is one point seven percent of Congress
compared to about two percent of the US population. So
on paper, that's proportional representation. But look at the concentration.

(56:57):
Most LDS members of Congress come from Utah and the
Mormon quarriter.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
So what that does.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
That gives the church disproportionate influence over the entire state
delegation plus key Western seats. Right, and let's talk a
little bit more about Brigham Young Right, the church's flagship
university in Provo. Their endowment is in the ballpark of

(57:23):
about three point three billion dollars. That puts it in
the upper tier of many US universities. Remember BYU's endowments
sits on top of the much larger LDS church asset
base and tithing system. It's not just another private school.

(57:46):
It is the training arm of this worldwide church corporation.
Look how they market itself. The Kennedy Center at BYU,
they openly host events like careers and intelligence and National security,
and they actually have CIA representatives recruiting students there. They
had and listen, this isn't the only institution. Right at

(58:08):
Harvard Yale they have the same but they have professional
networking language programs, internships. It's a very tight community where
if you're in the club, you're going to move up
the ladder. Right, And like everywhere else. They're full in
the NGOs. They have a huge representative in the non

(58:30):
governmental organization. So, just to wrap that up, BYU wasn't
just a campus. It's an on ramp into American professional class,
but also the security state right, the FBI, the CIA,
the NSSA right, and for decades at least since the nineties,

(58:51):
there's been rumors that agencies that we just mentioned have
a disproportionate representation from the LDS ranks. Let's look at
these numbers here from this article. A nineteen seventy one
Ramparts article claimed that Latter Day Saints provided both the
CIA and the FBI with some of their best men.

(59:12):
There was a nineteen eighty one story from the Associated
Press reports that the CIA does some of its most
successful recruiting in predominantly LDS Utah. Ten years ago, there
was an Atlas obscure piece titled why Mormons make great
FBI recruits, and they said agencies like DHS, FBI, the CIA,

(59:34):
they see Mormons as a particularly desirable recruit and have
a representation for hiring this disproportionate.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Number of Latter day Saints.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
There was even a book written in twenty seventeen that
was called the FBI and Religion. That book called LDS
members a natural recruiting ground for agents, right. And they
are also somewhat overrepresented in corporate and bureaucratic leadership. And

(01:00:06):
I'm not going to delve, you know, very deep into this,
but what I would like to do is to touch
on Mitt Romney, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Because he is.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
The you know what you could call the public face
of LDS power, right. And you can't talk about Mormon
influence in American government without talking about Willard Mitt Romney, right.
And he checks every box in the Mormon elite playbook.
He was born into an LDS political dynasty. His father,

(01:00:44):
George Romney, if you did not know, was the governor
of Michigan and the HUD secretary. He was like a
lifelong temple recommended carrying Latter Day Saint. He was a
BYU graduate, did his Mormon mission in France, held local
church leadership roles. He went into not just regular business accounting,

(01:01:05):
he was like the elite business counseling. Then he got
into Bayane Capital right, private equity, then governor, then senator,
and then the first major party presidential nominee in US history.
From the LDS church. So if you were trying to
design the ideal front facing Mormon for national power, Romney

(01:01:27):
was it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
Clean cut, disciplined, ultra wealthy, polished, spoke well, obedient to hierarchy, right,
spoke the language of service, but operated with the logic
of a CEO. And you know, it was interesting because

(01:01:50):
if you actually take the time to research at Romney,
you would see that he really navigated two identities.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
There was the private Mormon identity, right, his family lineage
goes back to the early pioneers, the temple marriage, served
as a bishop, right. And then there's the public American identity.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
He never discussed the Book of Abraham, never explained the
celestial marriage or exaltation, you know, never mentioned that LDS
doctrine teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers, on and
on and on. You know, in this two world navigation,
one face to insiders and another to the nation. That's

(01:02:33):
the exact pattern that the LDS institution follows. So in
that sense, Romney's not just unusual in their eyes, he's
an exemplary.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
He is corporate Mormon, uh personified.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
He truly is.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
And you know he was a bridge between the LDS
wealth and national power. Right, he had Wall Street capital
political machinery.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
It would have been you know, it would have.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Been interesting if he took the presidency. It's just such
a weird web of things between BYU Enzyme peaks wealth,
the LDS business empire, and how they're able to cross
over from nonprofit to for profit and nobody bats an eye, right.

(01:03:29):
But you know, it's important to understand that Romney Matters
is a big part of this because he embodies many
of the things we talked about today. He was for
many years the brand ambassador of the LDS Church. So,
you know, I want to close this out before we

(01:03:50):
get into I want to close with the Fritz Springmeier
article from twenty two years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
But you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
It's impossible to wrap this up up in sixty to
ninety minutes. I mean, every facet of the things we
talked about, you could you could have do an hour
to ninety minute presentation on every section that we talked about. Right,
you know, we're talking about a prophet who a lot
about polygamy. It translated a bogus Egyptian document into Canoni scripture.

(01:04:23):
He ran a legal banking schemes, destroyed a free press
that exposed him, and then Brigham Young walks in. He
fused church state militia, normalized polygamy. It's broken theology, a
financial system, you know, that is just unethical to be

(01:04:47):
kind in a cultural machine. And I think that's one
reason why they pushed their their culture that way. Nobody's
going to question a clean cut white shirt, you know,
glass protectors in the pocket, you know, just sporting the
nerd Look, it's the same thing when we talk about Switzerland. Right,
when you think about Switzerland, you think about chocolate and

(01:05:08):
this young girl yodling in the mountains.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
I was so relieved on social media the other day
somebody else posted something about Switzerland.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
It's not as.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Clean cut as you think it is. It's the home
to the Bank of International Settlements, right, all of these
things that we've talked about over the last five years.
And it's the same with the LDS. And again we're
not saying that every family is nefarious or has a
dark agenda. I just believe they're misled. They're very misled.

(01:05:43):
But I think that's one of the reasons why they
intentionally present this scrubbed Christian image while keeping the real
doctrine you know, buried many many layers deep, right, And
I think that's the big thing. And again I'm not
questioning their sincerity.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
I just think that you've been given.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
A version of Jesus Christ that does not match the
scripture that God already gave us. Okay, you've been told
that you must trust prophets more than the plain reading
of the Bible, right, that the Book of Abraham is scripture,
that the temple endowment is essential even though Christ's veil

(01:06:31):
was torn, and that the Church is God's only authorized corporation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
On earth.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
What I'm asking you to do is do what the
Brands did in Acts seventeen eleven. Right, they receive the
Word with all readiness of mind and search the scriptures
daily whether those things were so.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
Don't be afraid to do that with Mormonism. Compare that
you know the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus
of the missionaries. Compare the God of Isaiah. Compare the
grace of Ephesians two eight to the checklist of temple worthiness.
And if those don't match, you know what, you don't
owe your soul to Salt Lake City.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
You owe your soul to Christ.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
This is from Fritz spring Mile spring Meyer and from
September of two thousand and three. One of the things
that the Illuminati has done. And by the way, I
had a section we're already, you know, seventy minutes in.
But let it be known that the Mormons, the LDS

(01:07:46):
have very deep ties with Israel and Freemasonry. Joseph Smith,
it's not debated he was a Freemason, right. The LDS
church is very devoted to Israel and Jewish identity. That's

(01:08:07):
why they call non Mormons gentiles. But they have very
deep and undeniable ties between Mormonism and Freemasonry.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
They claim they're Israel So that's why they use the
term gentile. And again they have a college, the BYU
Jerusalem Center. You can put that in your Google machine.
This enormous educational complex overlooking the amount of olives, something
many Christians groups could never secure politically. Israel permitted it

(01:08:42):
on one condition. The Mormons must make legally binding promises
to neother you know, deprecate Jews. So think about that,
a church whose whole identity is missionary work agreed, right,
and Israel allowed them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
To build it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
Anyway, Now there's one part that you will hear. I
should say LDS apologists that hate discussing. So again, when
Joseph Smith introduced the Temple Endowment ceremony in Navu in
eighteen forty two, everybody, whether it's LDS XLDS or secular,

(01:09:23):
they acknowledge one fact, and this is truth. Joseph Smith
borrowed heavily from freemasonry. Okay, this is documented history. March fifteenth,
eighteen forty two, Joseph becomes a master Mason in Navu Lodge. Okay,
in March sixteenth, eighteen forty two, the lodge confers additional degrees,

(01:09:47):
and about two months later, Joseph Smith unveils the Mormon
Temple Endowment. Two months and suddenly the restored Temple ceremony appears,
and it is filled with Masonic elements right tokens, handshakes, passwords, oaths, aprons,
compass and square symbolism.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
The all seeing eye.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Now you know, the LDS apologists will say, oh, it's
inspired parallelism.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
It's nonsense.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Joseph took Masonic ritual structure and wrapped it into a
new theology, and all of the early Mormon leadership was Mason, Heavy,
Hiram Smith, Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, John Bennett, Orson Whitney,
scores of Navo Elite. In fact, the Navo Lodge grew

(01:10:44):
so rapidly that the Masonic authorities in Illinois were spooked.
I mean overnight it became the largest lodge in the state.
So it's not a coincidence that, you know, Freemasonry offered
this hierarchical structure, secret rituals, loyalty, oath, symbolism, and it

(01:11:07):
worked its way. You look at the temple, the Masonic
architecture with LDS theology. You look at any LDS temple room.
You look at the layout, the checkered floors, the pillars,
the veil work, the symbolic compass and square, the ritual
progression throughout rooms. And I will tell you one of
the few groups that would be able to pull off

(01:11:29):
nonprofit money into for profit outside of reads across America
is the Masons. All right, let's get to mister Springmeer's document.
One of the things that the Illuminati has done is
instill apathy in people toward resisting their wickedness. A letter

(01:11:51):
by an ex Mormon said it better than I could.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
There are many reason why.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
These people will not come forth even though they know
of the core in the Mormon Church. One is due
to their belief in Mormon scripture, which they associate with
the Mormon Church. The leadership has usurped power and authority
over this scripture. Thus, the members of the Mormon Church
think that God expects them to support their misguided leaders.

(01:12:19):
This is much of the rationalization that many Americans make
about our government.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
Interesting thought there. They all know of the corruption, but
they rationalize it that it's unpatriotic to talk about the government.
We're ungrateful to complain when they enjoy superficial prosperity, and
that's really what we have, is superficial prosperity.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Good point.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
It's interesting that this Mormon recognizes that the process of
the common man's reaction is the same to both Mormon
and American leadership. Because we will discuss the top leadership
in both. The reader learned that they're related to each
other under the control of the top thirteen Illuminati families.

(01:13:06):
If you haven't got his collection, go on to eBay.
I'm not sure if it's on Amazon, but the Bloodlines
of the Illuminati it was his right, his work, his
magnus op as if you will, Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson,
and he was considered a prophet amongst Mormons, was a

(01:13:27):
fan of the John Birch Society. Most people have not
read my exposies on both the Mormon Church and the
John Birch Society will not be able to protect themselves
from the Illuminati. I don't expose these organizations without a
great deal of proof. I say this because I know
from too many sources and too many angles that both

(01:13:48):
organizations were initiated and have been run by the Illuminati.
So Fritz as saying the Mormon Church and the the
John Birch Society is run by the Illuminati. The Mormon
Church has long prophecied that they would defend the US
Constitution in the last days. They are moving to fill

(01:14:08):
that with men like Beau Gritz, who sprinkles has talks
with buzzwords from Mormon prophecy. The John Birch Society was
part of the process of the Hegelian dialects of the
Cold War. They pretend to be the defenders of the
people against the New World Order, but like many they
are the fake and controlled opposition In My be Wisest

(01:14:34):
Serpent's book, I gave the genealogical evidence to show that
the Mormon leadership connected to the thirteenth top Illuminati family,
the Holy bloodline of what purports to be Jesus's lineage.
I've also showed numerous other connections between the Mormon leaders
and the elite Illuminati bloodlines. Ezra Taft Benson's genealogy helps

(01:14:56):
tie together some of the various parts of the Illuminati Beast.
The Taft is Houston's name because Ezra Taft Benson is
a descendant of a Fonso Taft, who, along with one
of the Russell family and Russell, one of the top
thirteen families, William Russell, started the Order of the Skull

(01:15:18):
and Bones. Now, legally it was known as the Russell Trust,
but we know it today as the Order of the
Skull and Bones three two two. And remember both Bushes,
well all three Prescott, h W and Georgie all Skull
and bonesmen. And Fritz says that George Bush is also

(01:15:40):
a descendant of the thirteen top Illuminati families, and that
family has ties with British Royalty. Now, the man who
just beat George Bush in the presidential race. William Jefferson
Clinton is a descendant of the Russells. So you're starting
to see what what Fritz is saying. Here is what

(01:16:04):
we heard before that all these people who take over
leadership of this country, they're all related or you know,
they have lineage that goes back to the Thirteen families.
So Fritz says, this newsletter hasn't gotten to an individual
article on the Russell family, but they go way back
in the Illuminati. The Russells are responsible for starting the

(01:16:27):
Skull and Bones, the Pilgrim Society, which we've talked about,
the Watchtower, Bible and Track Society, and the Masonic Daughters
of Isabella. Archibald Russell, a Mason from Scotland, set up
still other organizations, and as we know, Scotland has played

(01:16:47):
a key role in the Illuminati. One example of thousands
is Mariner Eccles, governor of the Federal Reserve Board and
supporter of FDR, who is a member of the wealthy
Mormon Illuminati Eckles family, which came over from Scotland. Now

(01:17:10):
this is interesting. The Russells played a key role in
the opium trade in the early eighteen hundreds and early Mormonism. Now,
one of the Russell businesses and their partners was Warren Delano,
junior chief of Russell and Company Operations in Canton, China.

(01:17:33):
And again all this ties together. Delano was the grandfather
of FDR. The Russell and Company logo was the Skull
and Bones. The Taft family, which was also related to
the Bush's by blood, and the Harriman family are two
families that have been intimately connected to the Skull and

(01:17:56):
Bones order again which is an entry point into the Illuminati.
And again on the surface, I was just a fraternity.
And the Harriman family was very prominent in Bill Clinton's life.
Averel Harriman was the CEO of George Bush's father's company.

(01:18:19):
Avril Harriman's wife was Pamela, who was played an extremely
important part in Bill Clinton's life. Pamela Harriman raised more
money for the Democratic Party than any other person, and
that was according to Newsweek May fifteenth, nineteen eighty seven's article,
she created a political action committee nicknamed pam Pack. Now,

(01:18:41):
when Old Billy lost his race for governor of Arkansas,
Pamela made Bill Clinton chairman of pam Pack. And by
the way, it took Brian Quigg, a Christian researcher like Fritz,
to expose the connections between Bill Clinton and Pamela Harriman. Now,
when Bill Clinton was in high school, he shook hands

(01:19:04):
with President John F. Kennedy, And again the Kennedys are
members of the top thirteen Illuminati bloodlines. And that picture
is widely circulated. You can find it easily online of
Bill Clinton shaking hands with JFK. But the master of
ceremonies at the affair where JFK and Clinton meant was

(01:19:25):
Winthrop Rockefeller. He was the i think at the time, Governor.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Of New York.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
Now, in the film clips of this event which the
establishment media have used recently, the established media also edited
out Winthrop Rockefeller from the scenes of Clinton and JFK.
By the way, the Astor family, who we did a
podcast on one of the thirteen bloodlines, was intimately connected
to the creation of the Rhodes Scholarship. Clinton was a

(01:19:53):
Rhodes scholar and looked up Professor Carol Quigley, one of
the archivists of the CFR, the Council on Foreign Relations,
as a mentor. So the Quigly Clinton connection really introduces
more connection between Clinton and the Illuminati quickly sidetracked people

(01:20:13):
by making people think that, you know, the elites, you know,
wanted the British to rule the world. Although the elite
are partial to the English language, in their heart, their
allegiance is not to Britain but to Satan. Now Clinton
has been compared to JAFFK and FDR by people, perhaps
in a negative sense. The comparison is inappropriate, So Fritz

(01:20:38):
goes on to say, let's review some of the items
which stuck out as red flags to me about Bill Clinton.
Several ex witches who are now Christians identified Clinton's running.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Mate Al Gore as a witch.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
Al Gore's book promotes several witchcraft themes, such as mother
gain worship. Senator al Gore has intimately worked with other
men who were illuminate. For years, al Gore was close
friends with Armand Hammer, the Illuminati courier who shuttled back
and forth between Moscow and America on a regular basis.
By the way, hammerbankrolled both al Gore and his father,

(01:21:16):
Al Gore Senior. Both al Gore and Bill Clinton raised
their hands at the DNC at the convention and declared
that their administration would be the new Covenant.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
Now, remember, Bill.

Speaker 3 (01:21:29):
Clinton's brother ended up in prison in connection to the
illegal drug trade while he was governor of Arkansas. Bill
Clinton's chief campaign advisor, James Carville, he still turns up
on the news every now and then. Right, he's pictured
in People's Magazine wearing a pentagram in the middle of
his forehead. Bill Clinton again in People's Magazine, page fifty

(01:21:53):
of what was the date on that? Let see Bill
Clinton calls his first press conference as president according to
the astrologically correct full moon day. I've heard a lot
about that, that the presidents speak on full moons. Somebody
emailed me that within the last week or two, talking
about when the presidents come out and do certain things

(01:22:13):
during the moon phases. He said in his inaugural speech
that the ceremony is held in the depth of winter.
But by the words we speak and the phases we
show the world we force the spring. And he reported
or he repeated the words we force the spring later
in the speech. Now, that's a very unusual expression, to

(01:22:37):
force the spring. Many say that's witchcraft language. Right, in
Witchcraft Satanism, luci fer bail, they rise from the underworld
on May first, Right, we talked about that timeline from
April nineteenth and May first historically has seen the most carnage.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
It's not a cool incidents.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
Their twelve cabinet members which when they assemble with their
head Bill Clinton, to make the number thirteen. Bill Clinton
choose to force the spring with his cabinet coven and
in true witchcraft tradition, the cabinet of Bill Clinton followed
the pattern to force the spring. And of course there's

(01:23:24):
a picture of him doing the devil horns which we see.
We saw the bushes due quite often over and over. Now,
many of these people do not realize the full satanic
implications of what they're in. If one reviews the various
levels of the Bavarian Illuminati, which started was at May one,

(01:23:47):
seventeen seventy six, right, you'll realize that the process of
corruption was gradual and that the lower levels had no
idea what they were involved in. And I believe that
goes on to this day, that the lower level Maysons
have no clue what they're involved in. But if you
take the time and look at Clinton in his cabinet,
you know I touched on all this during my I

(01:24:09):
haven't done a podcast on Clinton in a long time.
I probably need to revisit. But everybody you know Bill Clinton,
Trilateral Commission, Builderberg's Lloyd Benson, the Treasury Secretary. He was
a Builderberger. He was in the CFR, and he was
connected to the savings and loan scandal. Right, HHS secretary

(01:24:32):
Donna Shillalah, she was af CFR agent and Trilateral Commission
and a confidant of Hillary Clinton. And remember Less Aspen
the Secretary and the Secretary of Defense. He was a
straight out socialist. He was top assistant to a pro

(01:24:54):
communist named Morton Halpern. And this goes on and on,
Warren Christopher CFR, Bruce Babb CFR, on and on and on.
It's an interesting article and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
I will.

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
Include this in the show notes. But it's interesting that
he ties, you know, the closest descriptions of sealing rituals,
that matches the descriptions in these hierarchy rituals from Satanic
hierarchy to Mormon rituals. And there was a Mormon scholar

(01:25:32):
I think his name was d. Michael Quinn, and he
wrote a book entitled Early Mormonism and the Magical Worldview,
and he shows that this early Mormonism was based on
magic and witchcraft. Now, Quinn, who was a Mormon in

(01:25:54):
good standing, tries to point out that in the book
that these things can't be held against Mormonism becase because
most everyone back in the eighteen hundreds practice witchcraft. Right,
that's ir love, and that's silly to even say something
like that. But the great Bill Snobolen, which we've had
him on Classic Audio before, on the Power of Prophecy,

(01:26:17):
he did like a three hour presentation. He wrote a
book called Mormonism Temple of Doom, and he does an
excellent job of showing and illustrating how the Mormon temple
ceremony coincide with the Masonic rituals the same thing with
very very minor, minor variations. There's lots of books out there.

(01:26:42):
I have an entire list here of books that expose it.
Even Manley P. Hall in his book Masonic Symbology describes
a seal involved with black magic and the pact that
is made with a conjured dmon in a section entitled

(01:27:02):
Modus Operandi for the Invocation of Spirits. And it's really
interesting and it's a deep dive, and I'm going to
wrap it up there I think we're about ninety minutes.
And I could go on and on and on, from
the Philadelphia experiment to all these other things. But it's

(01:27:24):
interesting how all these things connect, right, And how many
times have we talked about these nonprofits, right, these loopholes
that have been created and allow the wealthy to become wealthier,
and when they become wealthier, they gain more control.

Speaker 2 (01:27:45):
Right. And in the.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
Realm of the conspiracy world, we often just talk about Rockefellers,
roth Childs. But how many times have you heard Brigham
Young mentioned on a conspiracy show?

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
Do you know what I mean? On a Truther show?

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
It's and you know, I haven't even gotten to the
Roman Catholic Church yet. These numbers you heard today were
pretty astounding. But when we get to Rome, it's going
to knock your socks off. And tex Mars he's another
guy that wrote a great book and has talked an
awful lot about Mormonism.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
So there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:28:24):
I'll leave it at that. We'll have some links for
you in the show notes. Check it out and do
your own research. Tell us what you think. Our email
address is the fact Hunter at mail dot com. A
lot of if I didn't mention it at the opening.
A lot of great positive responses from our Sunday night
episode From the Ram to the Lamb. We've already sent
out several Bibles to folks. If you need one, please

(01:28:47):
email me the fact Hunter at mail dot com and
we'll get one out to on the way. God bless
each and every.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
One of you. Have a great week. Keep my family
in your prayers this week.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
We have a lot of people traveling and friends and
family from all over the country. So thank you for
your kind words to continued support. Keep your head on
a swivel, in Jesus in your heart, and until we
meet again, my friends, we will see you. As they say.

(01:29:21):
But wait, there's more. I did find that lecture that
Bill Schnablin did with the Prophecy Club twenty or thirty
years ago, entitled What's Wrong with Mormonism and Again. It
runs about two and a half hours, and it touches
on a lot of the things that we discussed in
our podcast tonight. But what's intriguing is about the first

(01:29:42):
thirty or forty minutes he talks about his personal interactions
with the Mormon Church. So that's certainly worth a listen. Again,
after that much of it is repetitive in nature to
what I mentioned tonight, But I think it's a good listen,
and if you're looking for something to consume, it's a
great listen. And without any further ado, here is the
one and only Bill.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
Schnoblin and now your goods for the Prophecy Club.

Speaker 4 (01:30:06):
Stan Johnson, Welcome to the Prophecy Club, where we study
and research Bible prophecy. Well, the Bible says in One
Timothy four, verses one through two, says, now the Spirit
speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart

(01:30:26):
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines
of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared
with hot iron. And today we're going to be talking
about probably the fulfillment to a large degree of part
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:45):
Our topic today is what is wrong with Mormonism.

Speaker 4 (01:30:50):
You're a speaker, was a professional theology teacher for the
Mormon Church, an Elder's Quorum president, which he'll explain, and
a Temple Mormon.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
He's a member of the Mormon Church for five years.

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
Bill says that Mormons believe in another Jesus, another Gospel,
and another eschatology. He exposes the historical errors of the
Mormon Church, the errors of Joseph Smith.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
They're errors of salvation, errors.

Speaker 4 (01:31:19):
Of inerrancy, and the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith
was a Mason and a warlock.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
You help me, welcome Bill Snaplin.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
Well, praise the Lord it it's certainly good to be here.
That really says it all. But there's a lot more
to unpack in that brief introduction. The Mormon Church is
really one of the fastest growing churches in the world today,
and it's a formidable force.

Speaker 5 (01:31:58):
It really is.

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
And I want to say right up front that there's
much about the people of the Mormon Church that is admirable.

Speaker 5 (01:32:07):
They're good people.

Speaker 2 (01:32:09):
They're lost people, but they're good people, and they have
a lot of what they're doing right. And I hate
to say it, but in some cases they do put
many Christian churches to shame, especially in terms of how
they take care of their people in terms of physical
needs and so on. A lot of you who are
seeing this video know something in my background, and you

(01:32:31):
might wonder, well, how on earth did somebody like me
who used to be a witch and a Satanist and
all this kind of weird stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:32:38):
How did I ever join such.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
A white bread, square picket fence, all American, kind of wholesome.
Leave it to beaver church like the Mormon Church. And
I want to address that real quickly before we actually
get into the meat of the program. What happened?

Speaker 5 (01:32:53):
How did I end up there? But before I start,
there is.

Speaker 2 (01:32:56):
One Bible passage that I think describes the LDS Church,
which is another name for the Mormons, that their official
name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
And so for short, they say the LDS Church. That's
not LSD, that's LDS, although I think Joseph Smith might
have been on some LSD when he wrote some of
his doctrines down. But anyhow, in Romans ten, which of

(01:33:22):
course contains the heart of the Gospel, many people say,
but in the first two verses, there's a passage that
could very easily be ascribed to the people in the
LDS Church, especially since they believe they are Israel. You
need to know that up front, in terms of Bible prophecy,
they believe they are Israel. They do not believe the

(01:33:42):
Jewish people are Israel. They don't believe the Gentile Church
is Israel. And here's what Paul says rhetor in my
heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel, as that
they might be saved. And this is the Mormons. For
I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of

(01:34:03):
God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For
Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness to
everyone that believeth And to that I can say a
hearty Amen. Now how did I get into all of this? Well,
I came into the LDS Church a little bit differently

(01:34:25):
than most people do. I had a hearty commendation of
the church by the Grand Master Druid of North America
back in nineteen seventy three. He told me that I
should join the more in Church. Have I ever got
into any kind of deep spiritual trouble? And so that's
what I did. I was in the moment of a
spiritual crisis in my life. Everything was falling apart around me,

(01:34:47):
and I prayed to Lucifer this was in nineteen eighty
and asked him for a sign. Now, you know, you're
not supposed to really do that, Jesus says. A wicked
and adulterous generation asked secret after a sign to make
a long story short, more on missionary at a door
within a dase. And because of what this druid guy
had told me a few years earlier, I figured out, Ha,

(01:35:09):
this is the sign. So we virtually grabbed them by
their lapels and hauled them in and said, you know,
tell us how to become Mormons, which of course is
not their usual response on somebody's door, you know. And
as it happened, we were we had to go out
a grocery shop at that moment. We just a we
begged them to come back later, and so they did.
And it was funny even at first. In the Mormon Church,

(01:35:32):
I need to say this, they have a term. They
call it a golden moment or a golden contact. We
call it a divine appointment, you know, and somebody like
the fish sort of jump into the boat. Well, these
guys thought we were golden contacts because we were probably
begging join, you know, which, as I said, is not typical.
And the more questions we asked, they realized we knew

(01:35:53):
more about their church than they did, because we were
talking about things like, oh, you believe in a heavenly mother, right, Oh, well,
we don't normally tell people that, but yes we do,
and you know, you believe it can become gods? Right, Well, yeah,
we do believe that. We're taught that in the temple,
but we don't really tell people that. And so anyway,
they were kind of astonished at our zeal and our

(01:36:14):
knowledge level of knowledge of what they thought were church doctrines,
but actually there were Druidic doctrines. And so within a
few weeks, I think it was August eighth of that year,
we were both baptized as Mormons. And my wife was
never real crazy about this idea, because of course she
knew that Mormons are kind of repressive about women, and

(01:36:34):
she was afraid of how it was going to go.
But she went along with it because she thought it
was probably as good a place as any to hide out.
And so we went through the first year of the church,
and I was a real zealous Mormon. I tried to
give up all of my vices that I'd acquired over
all those years of being a witch and a devil,
worshiper and everything. I stopped smoking dope, I stopped having orgies,

(01:36:54):
and I was trying to be a real good little Mormon.
You know. You know, Mormons, their ethical code is pretty
much solidly biblical. I mean, they believe in family values
and chastity and you know, their pro life and their
you know, not much to argue with there. So I
was trying to be for the first time in my
adult life, I was trying to be a good Christian.

(01:37:16):
And I didn't realize at that time that you can't
try to be a Christian anymore than if you're a
wolf and you can try to be a sheep.

Speaker 5 (01:37:24):
It just doesn't work. How do you are You're not?

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
So I was working and working and you know, basically
kind of an overachiever and everything that I do, whether
spiritually or otherwise.

Speaker 5 (01:37:36):
And after a year, we.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
Were deemed worthy that I would receive the elder's priesthood.
It's see, I should explain this. In the Mormon Church,
every boy over the age of twelve holds the priesthood.
So like, if you are a deacon in the Mormon Church,
typically you're twelve years old, and I think it's when
you're thirteen or fourteen to become a pre a pardon me,

(01:37:59):
you become a teacher. Then when you're sixteen, you become
a priest. And this is in what is called the
ironic priesthood. That's not the erroneous priest that, it's the
ironic priesthood.

Speaker 5 (01:38:07):
Okay, Then if you're.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
Considered worthy, and most young men are, when you turn eighteen,
you become an elder.

Speaker 5 (01:38:15):
Is that funny?

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
You're an eighteen year old elder. You know, you can't
even shave yet and you're an elder. But anyhow, that's
how they do it. And then when I was in
the church, they had two levels above that. They had
a seventy and then a high priest. And usually you
didn't get the high priestood unless you were made a
bishop or something. So I became an elder, and my
wife and I went out to the Salt Lake Temple
because you know, we wanted to be married for time

(01:38:38):
and all eternity, and this druid fellow years earlier had
told us that we would achieve one of the most
ultimate occultic initiations inside of that Mormon temple. And so
we went to that temple and we were married for
time and all eternity and bizarre ceremonies. I mean, nothing
that you ever experience in the Mormon Temple or in

(01:39:00):
the Mormon Church ever could prepare you for what happens
in the Mormon Temple. We're going to talk a little
bit more about that later, but anyway, so here I am.

Speaker 5 (01:39:09):
You know, I'm in the temple, and we.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Had a very interesting thing happened because both my wife
and I have been given certain keywords and signs and
tokens by the Druids to let people know in the
church where we were at and you know what we
knew and all that, And so by using some of those,
we got an audience with one of the twelve apostles
of the Mormon Church. Now this is a big deal

(01:39:32):
because you know, these are like at the very pinnacle
of the Mormon Church. They are right underneath the prophet,
So think of them as being like the second tier
on the pyramid of Warmon authority. And we sat down
with this guy and share with him some stuff, and
he basically he bore us his solemn testimony that the
things we were telling him about Lucifer and the temple
were true, and that Lucifer was indeed the God of

(01:39:55):
the Mormon Temple. So we thought we were in the
right place because here we were, you know, we were
basically we'd gotten rid of most of our occult toffics
that we had been led to believe that the leadership
of the LDS Church were some sort of sorcerers or witches,
and so we felt it was still okay to be
a white witch. And apparently we were right, because here

(01:40:17):
this guy was telling us that Lucifer was the God
of the Mormon.

Speaker 5 (01:40:20):
Temple, and he was one of the twelve Apostles.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
So he went back and ultimately I was called to
be an elder's Quorum president, and basically that meant that
I had charge of the past care of the ward
underneath the bishop. So I would go out with some
of my priesthood companions every month and visit many different
families see how they were doing. It's called home teaching.

(01:40:45):
And as I did this, I discovered something. I discovered
that the LDS Church had a slimy underbelly that no
one knew about. I discovered that there were all sorts
of people in the Mormon Church whose needs were not
being met, who were floundering spiritually, they were floundering emotionally,
they were floundering in every possible way, and the Church

(01:41:05):
didn't seem to have any answers for them. And one
guy comes to mind. I won't say his name, but
he was a sweet guy. He was in his forties,
and he was a deacon. Now, minds you, most deacons
in the Mormon Church are twelve. Why was this guy
a deacon at the age of forty.

Speaker 5 (01:41:20):
Guess what?

Speaker 2 (01:41:22):
He was an adult convert Okay, which doesn't mean that much.
Usually you go through the whole thing in a few months.
But he smoked. Now, Mormons aren't supposed to smoke tobacco
or anything else, you know, But anyway, he smoked, and
so he was stuck. Even though this guy loved the Lord,

(01:41:43):
or what he thought was the Lord, and he was
in church every time the door was open, he was
damned as far as the Mormon Church was concerned, he
could not because he couldn't give up smoking. I mean,
we prayed for him, he prayed, he fasted, I gave
him priesthood blessings. He was the sweetest guy I knew
in the whole ward, and he couldn't get past these cigarettes,
and if any of you have smoked, you know that's

(01:42:04):
not an easy monkey to get off your back.

Speaker 5 (01:42:05):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):
But the problem is that meant he could never achieve
the highest degree of glory. He was stuck, no matter
how good his heart was. And that made me wonder,
you know, why is this going on? Why can't the church?
You know, because supposedly I had the power of the priesthood.
I mean, why couldn't this lay hands on this guy,
like you know, Jesus would lay hands on people in
proof they'd be healed of all sorts of bizarre diseases.

(01:42:28):
Why couldn't I lay hands on this guy and get
rid of his nicotine habit for Heaven's sakes.

Speaker 5 (01:42:33):
And I talked to the bishop about it, because we'd have.

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):
We'd have our PPIs see Mermon's love all these initials,
and a PPI is your personal priesthood interview. And because
I was the oldest crown president, I got mine straight
from the Bishop, you know, And I would talk about
these things they were bothering me. And he says, he says,
you know, President Sneblin, He says, some of these people
would almost have been better if they had enjoined the church. Now,

(01:42:57):
think of that. What a statement to me, because it
is they have all of this light and yet they're
not living up to it, and so they're damned.

Speaker 5 (01:43:05):
And if you understand, we'll.

Speaker 2 (01:43:06):
Get in a little bit of theology later, it means
that basically the Mormon Church has a ninety percent failure rate.
And I was starting to realize this, and then the
other thing that happened is they called me to teach
a course and a new Testament for the Church Educational System.

Speaker 5 (01:43:21):
And now you understand how rare this is.

Speaker 2 (01:43:24):
There aren't many people in the Mormon Church who get
paid to do something, because all of their labor is volunteer.
I mean, their pastors, which are called bishops, are volunteer.
Everybody just works for free. But I was teaching and
what is called the Church Educational System, which is an
extension of bringing Men University's Department of Religion. And so

(01:43:45):
I actually got a paycheck, however, meager, so I could
say I was a professional theology teacher. That wasn't why
I did it, but they wanted to. They were evaluating
to see if I could get on the faculty. Why
they had me do it, And so I taught a
course in a New Testament. And you know what, from
the first time in my life. Now, mind you, I
had at this time a master's degree from a Catholic seminary,

(01:44:05):
a bachelor's degree from a Catholic college.

Speaker 5 (01:44:07):
I had never read Romans.

Speaker 2 (01:44:09):
I took a course in paul a theology at the
Catholic seminary. Never read Romans, never read Galatians, never read Ephesians.
I didn't know what Paul was talking about. And so
when I started reading this book, I realized there was
no way Paul could have been a Mormon, just no way.
So that was and then the fact that the church
did not seem to be meeting the needs of its

(01:44:30):
people were bothering me. The fact that I would go
to families and visit them in home teaching and they
would tell me, you know, President Snebel and we went
to the temple. We thought it was going to be
this great experience, but what we saw in that temple
was so freaky. That was their words, we aren't ever
going back, We aren't ever going back. And mind you,
the Mormon temple experience is supposed to be the high

(01:44:50):
point of any Mormon's experience. It's so sacred and so
important that only probably one in ten Mormons ever gets
to do it. So anyway, here I was in this dilemma,
and basically.

Speaker 5 (01:45:08):
I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 2 (01:45:09):
So I started praying and fasting, and that's what you're
supposed to do if you're a Mormons. The Mormons had
this interesting approach to spiritual discernment. They say that if
you have a spiritual dilemma, you want to pray and fast,
and if the answer is a true answer that you're seeking,
you'll get a burning in your bosom if it's a
false answer. If the answer is no, the Lord will

(01:45:31):
supposedly fall cause of stupord to fall upon you, and
you'll even forget what you were even thinking about. So
either you get a heart burn or you get stupid.
That's your choice. And I prayed and I fasted. Iron
need to get an answer, And so for various reasons,
my wife and I moved back from Milwaukee to my
wife's hometown of Dubuque, Iowa, and there I found a

(01:45:52):
prophecy seminar flyer one day in one of the local
little nickel advertisers, you know, and they were going to
talk about the truth in the Book of Revelation, and
I thought, well, gee, I just taught a course in
the Book of Revelations. Plus I'd come from a church
that has a living profit, and so therefore I could

(01:46:13):
really show these people.

Speaker 5 (01:46:15):
What's going on.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
You know, I thought I was going to steal some sheep.
I didn't think of it that way, of course, but
so I went there, and mind you, this was the
first time I had ever crossed swords with a guy
that knew the Bible. No one had ever witnessed to me.
And I was, let's say, I would have been thirty
five years old at this point.

Speaker 5 (01:46:33):
I didn't know what was going on.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
And this guy, no matter what I threw at him,
he had an answer. He was slashing me alive with
the sword of the Holy Spirit, which is of course
this book. And finally I threw the one thing at
him that Mormon's always used on Protestants. I said, where
do you get the authority to baptize people so they
can be saved? Now? Why is that such an important question? Well,

(01:46:58):
you see, Mormons believe there's only two possible true churches.
Either the Catholics are right and they have this unbroken
line of succession you know, all the way back to
Peter the Apostle, and you know all the way up
the line. Or the Mormon Church is right because the
Mormon Church teaches that the Catholic Church apostasized in the
third century and there was darkness for like twelve hundred years,

(01:47:20):
and then Joseph Smith came along and restored the Gospel
and its fullness in pristine wonderfulness. So you know, if
you're a Protestant, you don't have a leg to stand
on because either you're an offshoot of the Catholic Church
and they cut off the branch so you're going to
you know, falling in the dirt, or you're not a Mormon,
so therefore you have no authority. Where do you get

(01:47:40):
your authority? So that was the question I raised. You
know what this guy answered me with. It was so
great because he knew my issue has nothing to do
with authority. He said, where do you get the idea
that you have to be baptized to be saved? It
says in Acts sixteen thirty one, believe in the Lord
Jesus Christ, and now shall be saved? And I house
and that verse went through me like a bullet through

(01:48:01):
a sheet at wet tissue paper just you know, went
right through my magic Mormon underwear too, I'll tell you.
And anyway, I couldn't believe it. I was trembling, and
I went home that night, and I remember my hands
were shaking on the steering wheel, and I thought to myself,
could it be that easy? Could it be that easy?

(01:48:24):
Just believe and be saved? And so I went home
and I prayed and fasted some more, and prayed and
fasted some more. And I remembered a few years prior
to this, before joining the Mormon Church event that I
had these comic books that some believed not some Satanists
given me. There were Christian comics, and I remember they
had in the back this thing about four steps that
you can do if you want to become a born

(01:48:45):
again Christian. And I thought, well, geez, I've tried everything else,
you know, practically, and those of you that know my
story know that I virtually belonged to the Cold of
the Month club, you.

Speaker 5 (01:48:54):
Know, I tried everything.

Speaker 2 (01:48:55):
I thought I might as well try this, and so
I rummaged around found one of those. I took off
my magic Mormon underwear because I didn't want any static
on the line. I knelt at the foot of my
bed anyhow, just me and God here, you know, and
I prayed through those four things, and you know what,
Jesus Christ saved my soul at that moment, and I
became born again, hallelujah. And at that moment, I was

(01:49:18):
translated from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of light.

Speaker 5 (01:49:22):
And I'll tell you I.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
Nearly went through some spiritual decompression at that moment. You
know these fish that are way down in the depths
of the sea and you bring out the top of
they explode like a balloon. Well, that almost happened to me,
even not quite. It was really a wonderful experience.

Speaker 5 (01:49:36):
And at that.

Speaker 2 (01:49:37):
Point I felt soul full of joy. I felt so
full of life. It was like, you know, someone was
pumping electricity through my veins, you know. And I never
felt this way before in years of prenticing magic and
years of being this devout, hard working. Because it is time.
I'd been in the Mormon Church over four years, and
so I thought, well, maybe this is some kind of

(01:49:58):
supercharged Mormon, you know. So I went back to the
Mormon Church and I was a Sunday School teacher at
this new ward in Dubuque, And so I'd go into
class and people would say, well, how are you, brother,
I'm great, Hallelujah, Praise the Lord. And Mormons don't do that.
I mean, you don't hear Mormon talk that. They're all
very quiet and self spoken, and you know, they they'll

(01:50:20):
talk about how they love God and everything, but they're
just very they're not very exuberant, you know. And so
people started looking at me funny. And along the way,
my wife discovered what had happened, and she said she
realized she'd come back to the Lord a few years,
not a few years, but a few months before that,
and so she realized, okay, we're.

Speaker 5 (01:50:42):
Back together now, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:43):
So we realized we were both saved, and so we decided, okay,
we're going here, and so we prayed about it. We
stayed in the church a while. I had some conversation
with various church leaders. I remember this one fellow. He
was he was my eller's quorum president because I was
in a new war and had a different position, and
he asked me why I was thinking of leaving the church.

(01:51:04):
And I said, well, I'll tell you what I have
thirty two questions about the Book of Mormon, and if
you can answer me those questions, I'll stay in the church.
So I asked him these thirty two questions, and he
couldn't answer one of them. He just could not answer
one of them. And so very soon after that, I
demanded a high council court because I was an elder

(01:51:25):
and so I could get a high council court, and
demanded to have my name taken off the church rolls.
But because I asked for the court, I got to
sit there in that court in Cedar Rapid's Iyowa at
the Cedar Rapid stake of the LDS Church. And I
got to because once they gave me the floor, they
couldn't take it away. So for three solid hours I

(01:51:46):
witnessed to them, and I my pastor was allowed to
be in the room with me as long as he
didn't say anything. So he was behind me praying up
a storm, I'm sure, and so ultimately, you know, of course,
none of them would admit I was right, but they
had no answers. All they could do was say, well,
I just want to bury you my testimony that Jesus

(01:52:07):
is the Christ. And Joseph Smith is a prophet of
God in the Book of Mormon is true, and you know,
and so at that point I went on my marry away.
But at at that meeting is when God gave me
a vision. If I'm spooking any of you out by
saying that, but I had a vision of a sidewalk,
a solid sidewalk, which represented the cults, and all of

(01:52:29):
a sudden, these flowers were cracking up through the cut
through the cement, and they were like new people being
saved every day out of the cults. And this is
what God was calling me to do. And that was
the beginning of our ministry with one accord right then
and there. That was in nineteen eighty five, and about
a year later I started in full time ministry.

Speaker 5 (01:52:49):
So anyhow, praise the Lord for that.

Speaker 2 (01:52:51):
Let's let's get into now what's going on with the
Mormon Church. First of all, we need to talk about
where it came from, what's what's the story. It's a
quint essentially American religion. In fact, there's probably not a
religion out there that is more American than Mormonism. And
I say that in both the best and the worst
senses of the worst and We'll see what I mean

(01:53:14):
by that in a moment. How did Joseph Smith get
his start, Well, the Smith family was a peculiar family.
He grew up in upstate New York at the beginning
of the nineteenth century rural family and basically they were
involved in some rather odd practices there. The father of

(01:53:35):
the family, Joseph Smith Senior, was a full blown occultist.
He was involved in an occult group that went out
and did water witching and dowsing and digging for buried treasure.
That was called the wood Scrape. Don't ask me why
they called it. That. Missus Smith, Joseph's mother, that that's her.
I don't know how all you can see that picture.

(01:53:56):
She looks kind of creepy to me. But anyway, her
name was Lucy Smith, and she said in her autobiography
that her family cast magical circles and practiced the faculty
of obrac That's from the name of the word abracadabra,
you know, which is everybody knows, you know, abercadabera.

Speaker 5 (01:54:14):
It's a magic word.

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
So that was a tern that was used in that
time for practicing, not just this isn't just minor league occultism.
This is high level ceremonial magic. They were casting magic
circles and they were doing occult things. So anyhow, at
this time, there was a revival sweeping through the area.

(01:54:35):
This is again around Palmyra, New York. And I guess
the Methodists were having revival meetings and the Presbyterians were
over here having revival meetings, and lots of people were
getting saved. There was a great excitement, and in fact
it was so there was so much going on spirit
they called that area of the East Coast the burned
Over District because there were in so many revivals. You know,

(01:54:57):
it was like, you know, it was almost burned over
with revival fire. And Joseph Smith's the story, the official
story is, is that he was wondering which joined because
the Methodists were saying join us, the Presbyterians were saying
join us, and the Methodist Episcopal Church was saying join us,
and he didn't know which church to join. Now, he
supposedly had never read the Bible in his life. He

(01:55:20):
was like a teenager, and they had this big old
Honkin family Bible that was obviously gathering dust and the
spiderweb somewhere in the Smith cupboard, and he hauled it out,
and the book just happened to open to James one.
And he looked at James one, and it says, if
a black wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth
to all men liberally, and upbraid if not, and it
shall be given him.

Speaker 5 (01:55:40):
Now that sounded pretty good to him.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
So what he did is he went out and went
to the woods and prayed. This is the official story
and what happened is, first of all, he supposedly was
overwhelmed with great darkness, to such an extent that he
thought he was going to lose his very life. It

(01:56:04):
was so dark and suffocating. Then all of a sudden,
this pillar of light shone down upon him, and he
saw these two glorious personages, as he called them, appearing
in the light. And the one personage gestured to the
other and said, this is my beloved son. Hear him.

(01:56:26):
I want to apologize, s throw, and I need to
go get a book that I forgot to get, So
give me a second. Here. This is my old triple
combination from when I was a Mormon. It's got the
Book of Mormon Dott and Covenant's Pearl Grade Price in it.

(01:56:46):
Because I want to read this verbatim. This is what
they said. He says, I asked the personages which stood
above me in the light, which of all these sets
were right? For at this time I had never entered
my heart that they were all wrong, and which of
them I should join? And in verse nineteen this is

(01:57:06):
Joseph Smith History, Chapter one, verse nineteen.

Speaker 5 (01:57:09):
I was answered that I.

Speaker 2 (01:57:11):
Must join none of them, for they were all wrong.
And the personage who addressed me said that all their
creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors,
in other words, the people who profess those creeds, in
other words, Christians, were all corrupt. That they draw near
to me with their lips, with their hearts are far
from me, for they teach for doctrines the commandments of

(01:57:33):
men had form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
And in verse twenty it says he again forbade me
to join with any of them. That's right out of
the Mormons. So realize that the Mormons believe that your church,
whatever church you're going to, is an abomination. Whether you're

(01:57:54):
a Baptist or a Pentecostal, or a Lutheran or a Methodist,
it's an abomination, and that all you are corrupt. So
when they start talking about how acumenical they are, this
is right in their standard works. So anyhow, then we
have the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Joseph
Smith later on was given a vision of an angel,

(01:58:18):
supposedly who appeared in his bedroom. And this angel was
another glorious personage in glowing robes, and he identified himself
as being the Angel Moroney. Okay, now, if you haven't
found the Angel Moroney in your Bible, don't worry. He's
not in there.

Speaker 5 (01:58:35):
It's a unique name out of the Book of Mormon.

Speaker 2 (01:58:38):
And Moronai was supposedly a living prophet back four hundred
years after the time of Christ in the Americas. And
he told Joseph Smith, over the course of several visits
like this, that there was ancient scripture buried nearby on
golden plates, and that this was the story of an

(01:58:59):
ancient American civilization, that it existed thousands of years ago,
and Joseph Smith would do the right stuff and prove
himself worthy that he would get these plates. So for
three separate years, on the night of the autumn equinox,
this angel would appear to him that September twenty first,

(01:59:19):
and finally the third time he led him to where
the plates were. This is all right out of the
official history of the Church. Dug up the plates and
then by gift and power of God translated them. Because
naturally these plates weren't in English. They were in a
strange language called Reformed Egyptian, which by the way, does
not exist. But that's what Joseph Smith claimed. And as

(01:59:43):
he brought forth this story, it was about basically, and
I've got to keep this brief, but that there were
some Jewish people who fled Jerusalem by boat at the
time of the prophet Jeremiah, when the city was about
ready to fall, okay, and they they came by boat
to the New World. And this headed up by Lehigh,

(02:00:07):
and he had two sons, well, two main sons, Nephi
and Layman. And Layman was kind of a stinker, and
Lehigh discussed, pardon me, Nephi was very good. So you
have kind of like the old Canaonabel thing again. And
when Lehi died, the sentence of Layman started getting really nasty,

(02:00:29):
and the sentence of Nephi all became very righteous and good.
For a while and because these Lamanites, as they came
to be called, were so bad and so wicked, so evil,
the Lord smote them with a dark skin, and they
came to be known as what today we call the
Native Americans. So that's the Mormon explanation for where the
Native Americans came from, is that their Jews that had

(02:00:52):
their skin darkened because they were so loathsome and filthy
and evil, whereas the Nephites, and this is right out
of the Book of Mormon, were white and delight. So
you know, you can see what's happening here. Okay. So anyhow,
this goes on for several centuries, and there's so many
bizarre things in the Book of Mormon I won'n't even
have time to go into them, but suffice it to

(02:01:12):
say that in the climactic moment of the Book of
Mormon is that when Jesus dies, darkness comes over the
face of the New World. And after he rises from
the and I think, there's this big earthquake too, in
which thousands of people are killed. And then after that
Jesus comes to the New World. He descends down in

(02:01:33):
a glorified, resurrected body and starts a Church in the
New World, and he sets up twelve just like he
had in Jerusalem, and sets up his church just like
in Jerusalem. This is how they will often portray the
Book of Mormon as another testament of Jesus Christ. And
we tell people, no, it's a testament of another Jesus Christ,

(02:01:53):
because the Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of
the Good Book anyway. So everything is fine for a while.
The Lamanites become converted. The knee fights are all holly
in righteous and white and delights them.

Speaker 5 (02:02:07):
But then some bad.

Speaker 2 (02:02:08):
Stuff starts happening. There starts to be wars, and from
by the time of the year four twenty one, there's
this climactic battle. And I don't know how well you
can see that, but that is an old engraving of
a hill in upstate New York called Hill Kumora, and
this is where the final apocalyptic battle took place in
the New World, where over one hundred and fifty thousand

(02:02:31):
Lamanites slaughtered a handful of knee FTEs. And this is
worse than the Battle of the Alamo, folks, I mean,
this is bad. Now. The thing you got to realize
is this picture you're seeing there. The hill is roughly
about two city blocks in size, and supposedly one hundred
and fifty thousand people were slain on this spot. I'm

(02:02:52):
amazed they had room to fall down, amen, But I
mean because you think about it, I mean two blocks,
you know, how could you fit that many people? And
then the funny thing is is that the Mormon Church
has been digging around that hill for a long long
time trying to find and they haven't even found an arroid.
And now, mind you, the Lamanites during this period supposedly

(02:03:14):
had full armor.

Speaker 5 (02:03:16):
You know, they had.

Speaker 2 (02:03:17):
Breastplates, they had little helmets, you know, they had swords,
and they haven't found any of this ever. So in
the last just before I left the church, the Mormon
Church came up with an interesting explanation for this. Are
you ready for this? They say that what happened is
is that this ancient battle actually took place in ancient
America down in like meso America, say Yucatan or someplace

(02:03:39):
like that. But since Joseph Smith lived in Upstate New York,
God had to pick up Hill Kumora and move it
up to Upstate New York. For a few months so
Joseph could find the plates, and then they moved it
back down to Central America. Now, if you believe that
I have a bridge in Brooklyn, I'm going to sell you.
But anyway, so that's the end of it. Now one

(02:04:03):
final thing though, oops went the wrong way at this
battle where was one surviving guy and his name was Maronai.
I believe now it could have been Mormon. I forget
it's not a Mormon and Moroni, but those are two
of the last great American prophets. I'm a little rusty
at this, folks. I left this church in nineteen eighty five.

(02:04:23):
So anyhow, I think it was Moron. I went and
took this chronicle of all of these events which was
on these gold plates, and buried it, knowing that someday
God would lead some great prophet of God to find them. Okay,
And that's that's the story behind the Book of Mormon.
So Joseph had this book, and basically what he did

(02:04:45):
is he used a peepstone, which is like a crystal ball,
to translate this from reformed Egyptian into English. He got
the book published. He somehow raised the money to publish
the book, and then in eighteen thirty, he started what
he originally called the Church of Christ. Later on it

(02:05:07):
came to be known as the Church of Jesus Christ of.

Speaker 5 (02:05:09):
Latter day Saints. Now here's an interesting thing about this,
is it?

Speaker 2 (02:05:14):
A cornerstone idea in the Mormon Church is that you
can't be baptized unless you have authority. Okay, I mean
unless the person who baptizes you has authority. Where does
the authority come from. Well, the authority comes from the priesthood.
So if you don't hold the priesthood, you can't baptize anyone. So, folks,
I'm sorry all of you are not really baptized, even

(02:05:35):
though you probably I hope all been baptized by immersion
at some point in your life. Well, it didn't count
because the person who baptized you did not have the priesthood.
Now you might ask, well, how did this get started? Well,
when I talk about the Great baptismal Charade, this is
what I mean. Supposedly, on the banks of the Susquehanna River,

(02:05:57):
I think it was near Harmony, Pennsylvania, on the baptist
appeared to Joseph Smith and one of his compatriots. I
think it was Oliver Cowdrey and told him that they
had to be baptized, and so he gave them instructions
and he said, Okay, here's what we're going to do. Joseph,
You're going to baptize Oliver, and then you're going to

(02:06:20):
give Oliver the priesthood, and then Oliver's going to baptize
you and give you the priesthood. Now think about this,
where did this come from? I mean, you know, if
you can't hold the priesthood unless you're baptized. So even
though Joseph baptized Oliver, he didn't have the priesthood to
do it. This is confusing, isn't it? And then you

(02:06:41):
think about it. Why didn't just John the Baptist do it?
He was there. He's like the world's greatest expert on
baptizing people.

Speaker 5 (02:06:47):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (02:06:47):
I mean, you'd think if anybody could know how to baptize,
it'd be John the Baptist. Plus Mormons are taught that
John the Baptist held the fullest of the ironic priesthood.
He was the last great ironic priest. But he didn't
do it. He just stood there and held his hands
while you know, Oliver's junking Joseph and Joseph's dunking Oliver,
and either one of them have the priests of authority
to do it. And on that shaky foundation, I mean,

(02:07:11):
you think the Catholic Church has problems. This is the
shaky foundation upon which Mormon, the Mormon priesthood and the
whole idea of the Mormon you know, authority comes from.
And see this is interesting because when I was made
an elder, I was given a card that I could
carry around on my wallet that had my priesthood line
of succession, and it told, hey, this guy ordained me

(02:07:33):
and eller and he was ordained an eler by so
and so on all the way back to either Joseph
Smith or one of the three witnesses.

Speaker 5 (02:07:40):
And it's all a sham, it's.

Speaker 2 (02:07:41):
All a charade. Now, this is this is one of
the few pictures engravings we have of Joseph Smith, and
I apologize it's just a little black and white etching.
But as you can see, he wasn't a particularly good
looking guy. He kind of had interesting nose and everything,
but but he was he was quite a charisma figure apparently,
and he drew a lot of people to him. But

(02:08:03):
what was this guy really like well, first of all,
was he a boaster? He most certainly was. Listen to this.
This is from History of the Church. This is an
official Mormon Mormon document. It's from history if want to
look it up, It's History of the Church, Volume six,
four oh eight and four oh nine. This is what
he wrote. I have more to boast of than any

(02:08:26):
man ever had. I am the only man who has
ever been able to keep a whole church together since
the days of Adam. Neither Paul, nor John, nor Peter
nor Jesus ever did it. I boasted No man ever
did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus
ran away from him, but the latter day Saints never
ran away from me. Yet. Now isn't that just godly

(02:08:48):
and humble and all of that. The interesting thing is
is the other thing he claimed to be descended from
Jesus Christ. See in the inner circles of Mormonism, they
are taught that Jesus was married, and then he in
fact he was a polygamist.

Speaker 5 (02:09:04):
He had many wives.

Speaker 2 (02:09:05):
He had Mary magu he had Mary, he had Martha,
he had Salome, he had this little harem that followed
him around. Because there's that one passage in Luke where
it says that the Jesus had these women that followed
him and ministered to him of their substance, and they
claim that means that these women were his wives. And
so Joseph taught I think it's in the d n C.

(02:09:26):
I should explain when I say d n C, I'm
not talking about a gynecological procedure. Uh. Dn C is
doctrine covenants in Mormon ees, and I believe it's in
Doctrian covenants one one three. He talks here about the

(02:09:49):
fact that says, what is the rod spoken of in
the final verse eleventh chapter of Isaiah. It is a
sermon in the hands of Christ, who is partly descended
to the house of Jesse, of the House of Ephrium,
and upon whom there has laid such power.

Speaker 5 (02:10:04):
And then it goes on to.

Speaker 2 (02:10:05):
Say that as the descendant of Joseph, upon whom rightley
belongs the keys of the priesthood. And later on it
indicates this is in fact Joseph Smith. Now was he
a glass looker? Well, what's that mean? Well, a glass
looker is someone who looks in at crystal balls, and
you see that little picture up there that is one

(02:10:26):
of Joseph's peepstones. It was one of his special sears
stones with which he translated the Book of Mormon. And
if you read David Whitmer's and addressed to all believers
in Christ by eyewitness accounts, it says what he did is, now,
figure this. He'd have the gold plates over here underneath
a blanket. He wouldn't even look at them, and he
had this big stove pipe hat you know, think Abraham Lincoln, okay,

(02:10:50):
and he'd put this peep stone in the hat, and
he'd put his face in the hat, and the peace
stone would light up and give him the word and
that reformed Egyptian, and then would give him the word
in English, okay. And then he would tell the person
who was there to describe it down, and that person
would write it down. That's how the Book of Mormon
was translated. Now, was he a money digger? Well, what

(02:11:12):
does that mean? That's not like being a gold digger,
okay for that term. But this is a money digger,
And the term in those days meant someone who fraudulently
go around and sell his services to bullet gullible people
and claim that he could use occult powers to find
buried treasure.

Speaker 5 (02:11:29):
See.

Speaker 2 (02:11:29):
Now, remember this is the early part of the nineteenth century,
and there were a lot of these old pirates that
had been found maybe fifty years before that. So there
are all these stories about like Blackbeard's treasure and all
these different treasures, and so Joseph Smith and he was
actually convicted of this in eighteen twenty eight. Oh, I'm sorry,
not in eighteen twenty eight.

Speaker 5 (02:11:50):
It was eighteen twenty six.

Speaker 2 (02:11:52):
He was actually convicted in court of being a disorderly
person and an impostor because he was selling his services.
And this is, you know, six years after he got
the Book of Mormon, mind you, and yet he was
still running around claiming he defrauded people because he would
claim to find buried treasure and he'd say, dig there,
and they dig up the whole fielding and wasn't there.

(02:12:13):
And he says, oh, I'm sorry, the evil spirits moved it.
Pay me another dollar and I'll tell you where it went.
You know. So you know the guy was he was
a con man. Now what about this? Is he going
to be our judge, believe it or not. Yes. The
Second Prophet of the Mormon Church taught in journal of Discourses,

(02:12:33):
Volume seven to eighty nine, and it says Brigham Young.
You probably all heard of Brigham Young, if nothing else
the University.

Speaker 5 (02:12:39):
He said, no.

Speaker 2 (02:12:40):
Man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter the
celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.
He will be our judge. So we got Jesus and
we got Joseph to contend with. Now, so if you
are on Joseph's good side, I'm afraid you're going to get.

Speaker 5 (02:12:56):
Into a lower kingdom.

Speaker 2 (02:12:57):
Okay, Now here's the other thing. Was he a Methodist?
Now people, I'd say, well, what's wrong with being a Methodist?
Absolutely nothing. But see here's the deal. Eight years prior
to this, Joseph Smith, and I read you the account
right out of Morgn Scriptures, was forbidden from joining any church.
And yet in eighteen twenty eight he joined the Episcopal Church,

(02:13:24):
a pardon me, little Methodist Episcopal church. He didn't stay long.
You know why they kicked him out because he was
an occultist. But here he was. He was supposedly this
fledgling prophet of God who was never supposed to join
any other church, and he ends up joining the Methodist Church.
Methodist excuse me, Methodist Episcopal Church. Another question, was he

(02:13:44):
a freemason. Yes, he was, according to the History of
the Church, Volume four, five point fifty one, and following
he got the first degree a Masonry on March fifteenth,
eighteen forty two, that was two years before his death.
Then on March sixteenth, one day later, he got the
sublime degree of a Master Mason. Masonry is, of course

(02:14:06):
a competing religion, is it is a false religion to
any Christian religion. Now another question, did Joseph bed other
men's wives? Yes, he did. See he taught in section
one hundred and thirty two of Doctrinam Covenants. He taught
that the new and everlasting Covenant of marriage abrogated all

(02:14:30):
old weddings, all old marriages were null and void, and
that if you wanted to be married, you would have
to come to the priesthood, okay. And so he would
go around, and if he would see that your wife
was particularly attractive, he would go and say, God has
given me a revelation, and your wife is to become
my wife. And if you.

Speaker 5 (02:14:49):
Didn't want to get on the bad side of the
prophet of God man, you you let him have your
wife and.

Speaker 2 (02:14:54):
That was the end of your marriage basically. So when
Joseph died, he had I think twenty seven wives. Is
the last count. Okay, did he die in occultist? Well,
yes he did, because when he was shot and we'll
talk more about that in a few minutes. When he
was shot, they found in his pocket. You see that
funny little occult thing up there on the screen, that

(02:15:17):
is a Jupiter talisman. That is a picture of the
Jupiter talisman which he had in his pocket at the
time of his death. Now, that Jupiter talisman is supposed
to be there to give him two things. If you
look it up in Francis Barrett's massive textbook The Magus.
In the Magas, it has said that this particular talisman

(02:15:38):
is number one to give someone success with women. In
number two, it's supposed to help you have worldly power
and possessions. So it wasn't that spiritual. He wanted to
get girls, and he wanted to get money and power.
So there we go. That's Joseph Smith. Now what happened
is is because of a lot of these obscure teachings,

(02:16:00):
Joseph Smith was run from one town to another, sometimes
literally written out of town on a rail or tired
and feathered. And he went to Kirkland, Ohio first, and
there they built their first temple, but they were out
of town. Then he ultimately moved to Nauvu, Illinois, where

(02:16:20):
they started their own little city there. And Joseph Smith
ruled this city like a tiny kingdom. And it wasn't
at tiny because by this time Mormons were being converted
all over the English speaking world. And believe it or not,
Nauvu was bigger than Chicago in the eighteen forties. It
was huge. Curuse, Chicago wasn't that big either. You got

(02:16:41):
to realize that. But now, at this point is when
Smith became a mason. And this is interesting because he
was made a master Mason in March of eighteen forty two,
and just a couple of weeks later, on May fourth.

Speaker 5 (02:16:54):
Well actually six weeks later, he.

Speaker 2 (02:16:56):
Suddenly from God got this revelation for the Temple Endowment. Now,
the Temple endowment are the secret rituals of the Mormon Temple,
which are about seventy percent similar to freemasonry.

Speaker 5 (02:17:08):
Gee, is that a coincidence or what? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (02:17:10):
Well, of course, you know, God works in mysterious ways.
So at that point he began secretly teaching to a
handful of his inner followers the temple endowment, as it
is called now in section one thirty two. I've already
alluded to this of doctrin and covenants. He introduced to
a handful of inner people the concept of plural marriage.

(02:17:33):
And this is of course what most Mormons are famous for,
even though they don't officially do this anymore. But listen
to this. This is the beginning, This is this is
Mormon scripture. Okay, verily, let's say it. The Lord unto
my servant Joseph. Then, inasmuch as he inquired in my
hand to no one understand wherein I the Lord talk
about verbia verbose have justified my servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

(02:17:56):
as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, has touched
the principal doctrine of having many wives and concubines. Behold
and O, I am the Lord, thy God, and I
will answer thee as touching this manner. Therefore, prepare thy
heart to receive it. Obey the instructions which I am
about to give you. For all those who have this
law revealed under them must obey the same. Now here's

(02:18:19):
the law. Behold, I reveal unto you a new and
everlasting covenant. And if you abide not that covenant, you
are damned. For no one can reject this covenant and
be permitted to enter into my glory. And then if
you go on to verse eighteen, he say, you know,
if you marry a wife and make a covenant with
her retirement for eternity, if that covenant is not by

(02:18:41):
me or my word, which is my law, and is
not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise through Him
whom I have anointed and appointed unto him, then it
is not valid, neither of force, whether they are out
of the world or in the world, because they are
not joined by me saith the Lord, neither by my
word when they are out of the world, because they
cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods

(02:19:02):
are appointed there. And it says that these people will
become gods because their siege shall have no end. And
now here's the killer. Verse Verse twenty one says, verily, verily,
I say, unto you, except you abide my law, you
cannot attain to this glory.

Speaker 5 (02:19:20):
So what this passage? And I don't have time to
read the whole thing is.

Speaker 2 (02:19:23):
It's several pages long, including a passage here where Emma Smith,
Joseph's wife, is commanded to accept other people other wives.
And Joseph's first wife was fourteen years old and at
the time he was in probably as late i'd say,
early to mid thirties.

Speaker 5 (02:19:42):
Her name was Fanny Alger.

Speaker 2 (02:19:45):
And anyway, she was told that if she didn't approve
of this, she was going to be in deep trouble.
You know, I can imagine how fun it was to
be in the Smith household for a while. So anyway,
remember this because this is important later, if you don't
accept ploor marriage, you're damned in the Mormon Church. Okay,
So things got progressively stranger. Joseph Smith was crowned King

(02:20:10):
of the USA later on in the year eighteen forty four,
and he even ran for president. How many of you
knew that Josephmith ran for president, not that he was
really a viable candidate, But you know, what, can you say,
Let's see what happened next is kind of interesting. He
was incited for riot because you know what happened, a

(02:20:32):
mob of people A pardon, let me back up one step.
Some people who were disaffected Mormons printed a newspaper in
Navu that revealed the fact that Joseph Smith had more
than one wife. This has never been revealed before, even
though it was sort of like the worst kept secret
in the city of Navo, and so Joseph ordered a

(02:20:54):
mob to trash the printing press and destroy it. When
the governor of the state heard about this, he had
no choice but to order Joseph Smith arrested. So he
was arrested and because they knew there would be riots
if they kept him in the jail at Navu. Because
see Joseph Smith imagine a sinister version of Andy of Mayberry.
Joseph was the mayor, he was a justice of the peace,

(02:21:19):
he was the sheriff, and he was the general of
the Nauvo Legion, which was an actual army that he
was raising. On top of which he was the prophet,
seer and revelator of the war in church. So this
guy had all the power he could possibly have in
that city. So they trunnled him over to Carthage Jail
in Carthage, Illinois, and a couple of days later a

(02:21:40):
mob stormed the jail and he was shot by the mob.
There's two theories as to why he was shot. One
is that the people had shot him and there were
several it was a fuseillative gunfire, several rifles were involved.
Is that some of them were guys whose men whose
wives he had stolen, and they were up that with him.

(02:22:00):
The other theory is that the fingers on the triggers
of those rifles had Masonic rings on them because he
had revealed secrets of masonry two people.

Speaker 5 (02:22:09):
Who were not Masons.

Speaker 2 (02:22:12):
Now, the other thing is that if you listen to
some of the talk about Josephith in the Mormon Church,
they say that he died as a martyr, that he
shed his blood for us. Now think of that. Now.
The thing you got to realize is that what hairs.
Here's what happened. Joseph was up in the jail on
the second floor and locked up, but someone had smuggled

(02:22:33):
him a pistol, and so people broke in the day
of the jail door and they were coming into the
room after him, and he shot, and he fired two
bullets and killed one guy and seriously wounded another guy.
And then he realized then the gun jammed and so
he started to climb out the window, and that's when

(02:22:56):
he was shot by all these people are out out
in the square and as he fell to earth. The
official Mormon version is is that when he landed on
the ground, he laid there and he said, my Lord
and my God, and then he died. Now that's not
what the witnesses actually say. The witnesses actually say that
as he was falling, he said, oh Lord, my God,

(02:23:17):
is there no help for the widow's son. Now, those
of you that may have heard my talk on Mason,
he would know that that is the Grand Masonic Haaling
sign of distress, and it's given by a Mason when
they're in dire need of help. And of course he was.
He was falling out of a second story window with
bullets hitting him in several places.

Speaker 5 (02:23:35):
But you know, and the.

Speaker 2 (02:23:36):
Interesting thing is is that moment, he was the son
of a widow because his mother had been widowed.

Speaker 5 (02:23:42):
His father had died a few years before that.

Speaker 2 (02:23:45):
So and really we don't know to this day who
actually shot Joseph Smith, but he died and very unexpectedly.
And then we get into the controversy because prior to
that time Smith had had left a revelation that his son,
Joseph Smith the third would be his successor as prophet.

(02:24:05):
But at the time of his death, his son was
just a kid. There, you see, Brigham young, he was
a very forceful personality, and he was a senior apostle,
and he managed more or less by the sheer force
of his will to kind of shove Emma Smith, who
is Joseph's widow, well, one of his widows, out of

(02:24:26):
the way, and basically staged a bloodless coup, and he
became a new prophet, and he set the standard of
succession because ever since that time the Mormon Church has
been running the way that whoever's a senior apostle, when
the prophet dies, he becomes the next prophet. Now, Brigham
was a really, you know, a very interesting fellow. He

(02:24:50):
was a good leader. He was probably, in fact, a
better leader than Joseph Smith was. He didn't have a
lot of Joseph Smith's character defects. What happened with m
Smith is that she took the child Joseph Smith's son
and went off into hiding because she was afraid that
Brigham might order him killed. And then later on she
started the RLDS Church, whose headquarters are not far away

(02:25:13):
from here in Springfield, Missouri. So that's where the RLDS Church,
the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints,
comes from, and it continues today as a very small
church by comparison with the Mormon Church. They do not
call themselves Mormons, by the way, even though they do

(02:25:34):
use the Book of Mormon. They do believe Joseph Smith
was a prophet, but they do not have a lot
of the same weird doctrines the Mormon Church has. Now
soon after this, the Mormons were run out of town
by mob violence. Their temple is burned to the ground,
which they were Oh, I should tell you this this
picture here where it hopes I'm going the wrong way.

(02:25:58):
This is the one of the few sketches we have
of the Nauvoo Temple before it was destroyed. They are
just now rebuilding it and it's going to be I
think open very soon. They have it. They're going to
have a temple now in nauvo If any of you
want to go and have a special spiritual experience, you
can go see it. It's just over the river there
on the other side of the Mississippi. So anyhow, they're

(02:26:22):
run out of town and bring them young gets the
inspiration to move west, and so he goes out there
and in the Salt Lake Valley. This is the famous moment.
It's immortalized by a statue now on downtown Salt Lake,
where he stands there on the mountains and looks down
into the Salt Lake Valley and says this is the place,

(02:26:43):
and that statue is there to this day.

Speaker 5 (02:26:45):
And the funny thing is is he's.

Speaker 2 (02:26:46):
Standing there and his hand is out, and right in
front of where his hand is is the Zion State Bank.
A lot of Mormons find that right or amusing. But anyway,
so they set up shot out there because they figured
they were that far away from America that they wouldn't
get hassled about their polyamy.

Speaker 5 (02:27:06):
So he gets the inspiration to.

Speaker 2 (02:27:08):
Have all these devout Mormons that are still in Nauvoo
to pack up all our belongings. Because they didn't have
enough money to get wagons covered wagons or prairie schooners
or kind of stovas or whatever, and so they had
hand carts and they trunneled across the prairie and the
hand carts.

Speaker 5 (02:27:27):
And this is if if you're.

Speaker 2 (02:27:28):
A Mormon and you're descended from one of these hand
cart pioneers, as they're called, that's one of the proudest
things in your in your family is that you made it.
Because most of them didn't. A lot of them didn't.
A lot of them died in the middle of the
of the Great Plains, and especially as they got further west,
because they had no shelter. They were attacked by Indians,

(02:27:49):
they were attacked by wild animals. A lot of them
were just babes in the woods. Many of them, in fact,
were recent immigrants from England. You know, they didn't even
speak the language. Sorry, we were all in England in
January and December. It's hard to understand some English people anyway.
They so a lot of Mormon people died in the
middle of the wilderness, you know, and even though they

(02:28:11):
were trying their best, and you know, you've got to
give them credit, but they were following a pretty foolish
council now out in Utah.

Speaker 5 (02:28:18):
Basically, Brigham set up a kingdom out there.

Speaker 2 (02:28:21):
He ruled like he you know. In fact, many writers
who've explored this period of Mormon history said, if you
want a good example of how Brigham Young ruled out there,
think of Jim Jones, think of Hitler, because that's basically
his word was absolute law. And he had his avenging angels,
the Danites, people like wild Bill Hickman, John d Lee

(02:28:45):
and others who were gun slingers. And if you were
someone like me, see I'm an apostate Mormon, I would
be killed. Back then, Brigham Young actually stood up in
the tabernacle of the Salt Lake tavern, I mean the
pulpit of the Salt Lake Tabernacle, and he had this
big bowie knife and he waved it over his head
to the congregation, which was packed, and he said, anybody

(02:29:08):
who is I'm not quoting directly, or anyone who is
a nasty apostate, we're gonna go out and we're gonna
slit their throats.

Speaker 5 (02:29:17):
And he waved and everybody.

Speaker 2 (02:29:18):
Goes, yes, yes, go go. You know, and you know,
if you were on apostate, if you were not living
according to all the laws of monmonism, your life was
in danger back in those days because of the avenging angels.
And it's interesting that to this day, the state of
Utah is the only state in the Union has a
church police force that can arrest people. The Church security

(02:29:41):
system can arrest you if you're in Utah. So people
joke that the Constitution is null and void when you
cross the borders of Utah.

Speaker 5 (02:29:51):
And I know I've had a few dealings.

Speaker 2 (02:29:52):
With the Church security system and they are not particularly
nice people. But the interesting thing is is, because you
see many of you may know, I'm going to talk
about this more or later, a lot of Mormons get
into the FBI, they get into the CIA, they get
into government, and so most of the Church security people
are former Secret Service, former FBI, or former CIA. In fact,

(02:30:15):
the guy that I dealt with, he had just been
fired from the LA office of the FBI as the
Special Aident in charge because he was a victim. Wasn't
a victim, he was wrong, but he was the target
of a lawsuit because he was refusing to promote agents

(02:30:35):
of color. Hispanic agents and African American agents were filing
lawsuits against him and the FBI because you know, Mormons
had this little racist thing, which we'll talk about in
a few minutes. So anyhow, additionally, of course, there was
a lot of oppression of women because women were expected
to be married, and this usually meant polygamy because that

(02:30:57):
was the law out there, and many of the women,
you know, they might be, you know, fifteen, sixteen years
old and they'd be forced to marry some guy who
was old enough to be their grandfather.

Speaker 5 (02:31:07):
Because it was a sign of status.

Speaker 2 (02:31:09):
The holier you were, the more wives you had, and
I think Brigham Young when he died, had over fifty wives.
So in fact, the joke was that toward the end
of his life he was so fat Brigham was that
he had to be carried around in a chair by
six guys, and he had barely enough energy to sit
up and bed every now and then and get married.
So anyhow, we taught about the Danites or the avenging Angels.

(02:31:33):
We already mentioned that. Now what happens is this became
an increasing scandal in the United States. This was a
big deal in nineteenth century politics in the eighteen sixty
after the Civil War kind of settled down and was over,
and they were kind of that whole thing around the
South had sort of, you know, kind of settled down.
This was the next big thing the United States had

(02:31:54):
to deal with, and so they had what they called
the Mormon Wars where the US Army actually went into
Utah and started, you know, basically driving these church leaders
from pillar to post. And at one point, of course,
this is Brigham and been dead by now, and I
think it was the second or third prophet after him

(02:32:16):
was running the show at this time. And basically, the
two things the church wanted. A it wanted to be
left alone. B it wanted statehood for Utah, for the
territory of Utah. And the US government said, no way,
we are going to prosecute you guys, because they passed
a federal law against plural marriage and they were out

(02:32:37):
there and forced to enforce it. And so President Wilfred Woodruff,
who was the prophet at that time, he had a
revelation in eighteen ninety that this new and everlasting Covenant
of marriage was now abrogated. It was null and void.
And now if you're a Mormon and you have another wife,

(02:32:58):
you can be excommunicated for it. As before, if you
didn't have another wife, you were damned. So, you know,
it's interesting, church, wouldn't you say so? Anyhow, Utah got
its statehood, but at the cost of its most important doctrine,
and that's where the Mormon fundamentalists come from.

Speaker 5 (02:33:16):
Because to this.

Speaker 2 (02:33:17):
Day there are over thirty five thousand Polygamists in the Utah,
and most of them are in fact fundamentalist Mormons who
believe that the original LDS Church of Joseph Smith has
apostasized and is out of line with God, and so
they're the one true church.

Speaker 5 (02:33:34):
Okay, then we go along.

Speaker 2 (02:33:37):
In the middle twentieth century, the church started to get
established and began to move out of the fringe in
the mainstream. Probably the two first prominent Mormons to come
into the public consciousness. So may old enough be old
enough to remember when Ezra taff Benson was Secretary with
Secretary of Agriculture in the Eisenhower administration, he was a Mormon.

(02:34:00):
Some otters that you may remember when George Romney ran
for president, he was a Mormon and he probably lost
the presidential primary because of the Mormons stands on blacks. Now,
what does the Mormon stand on black people? Well, basically,
in the old days prior to eighteen seventy eight, black

(02:34:21):
people could be baptized, but they could not hold any
offices in the priesthood or anywhere else in the church.
They could not go to the temple, they could not
be sealed for time and all eternity. You might well
ask why is this. Well, see, Mormons have this cosmology.
They believe that what happened is that before the creation

(02:34:41):
of the earth, there was this meeting of the gods.
And yeah, Mormons are politamists. They believe in many gods.
And if there was this committee meeting decide what to
do about the earth. And Jesus raised his hand and said,
I would ask that you would create all these wonderful
people on earth, and that I would go down there
and I would show them by my example how to

(02:35:04):
live a good life, and in this way men might
be saved. Then Jesus's younger brother, Lucifer raised his hand
and said, I will go down and I will teach
these people the Gospel principles, and I will force them.
I will take away their free agency, which is the
Mormon term for free will, and I will force them

(02:35:24):
to obey the Gospel laws. And in this way I
will get all the glory. Well, the council voted down
Lucifer and voted for Jesus's plan, and so Lucifer got
all ticked off, and he managed to talk a third
of the angels of heaven into rebelling, and a third
of the angels lined up behind Jesus, including the archangel Michael,

(02:35:46):
who will become Adam later. There's a little secret you
learn in the temple is that the archangel Michael is
actually Adam. But anyway, so does this big fight between
the third of the angels that are good and the
third of the angels that are evil and in the middle,
where's the other third. Well, they sat on the sidelines
and drank coke and waited. That's not literally what they believed,

(02:36:07):
but they sat on the sidelines and waited to see
who would win. Now what happened, of course we all
know Jesus won. The devil and his angels were kicked
out of Heaven and they became the demons. Okay, the
angels that sat on the sidelines that did nothing, they
were cursed with a black skin because of their laziness,

(02:36:31):
and so they were sent to earth. And we're basically
not going to ever get the priesthood until every white
person on Earth had gotten it. Now, what about the
angels had fought on the size of Jesus, Well, they
would be white and delightsome, and they would come, this
is remever the Book of Mormon.

Speaker 5 (02:36:50):
You're white and delights them, you know. And anyhow you
go down there.

Speaker 2 (02:36:54):
And you would get to be born into Mormon families.
Oh boy, what a deal, you know. And that way
you can have the fullness of the everlasting Gospel from
when you're even a little kid. So and if you
read the writings of Mormon prophets like Joseph F. Smith
and Joseph Fielding Smith, these are all like you can
probably tell relatives of the original Joseph Smith. They would

(02:37:19):
say stuff like, oh, the Blacks are a filthy and
lazy and loathsome people. And they would talk about their ugly,
curly hair and their big noses. I mean, it was
like reading Ku Kuck's Klan literature. Well what happened? Oh
the other thing I forgot to tell you is the
interracial marriage is a definite no no. The black people

(02:37:42):
are basically under a curse because of their inability to
fight valiantly in the pre existence. In the nineteen seventies, though,
two things happened. One is the Mormon Church started growing
like crazy in Brazil. Now. I don't know if any
of you been down to Brazil, but it's a very
multi racial society and it's very hard to tell down

(02:38:04):
there what who's what, you know? And the Mormons used
to teach it if you had even a single drop
of black blood, you could not hold the priesthood. And
basically the Brazilian government told the Mormon Church, if you
don't get rid of this doctrine, we aren't going to
let you in here. We aren't gonna let you build
a temple down here. Then the other thing that happened

(02:38:24):
is guess what. The IRS came along everybody's favorite organization, right,
and the IRS said, unless you change this doctrine, we're
going to take it away your tax exempt status. That hurts,
you know, did the same thing to Bob Jones University,
if you remember. So the Mormon Church guess what, See

(02:38:47):
this is how wonderful God is. He even obeys the
Internal Revenue Service. Right. So, in nineteen seventy eight, the
prophet at that time was Spencer W.

Speaker 5 (02:38:56):
Kimball.

Speaker 2 (02:38:57):
He was this little guy that looked like Yoda. Not
not kidding. He actually if you look at pictures of him,
he looks like Yoda. Said he wasn't green, of course,
but otherwise, and he got this revelation in nineteen seventy
eight that now blacks could hold the priesthood and that
we're all one big, happy, interracial family. Now, so that's
the story on the black people. So since that time,

(02:39:20):
blacks can hold priesthood offices, they can go to the temple.
They I remember there's a big article in the Church News,
which is, you know, obviously the official church newspaper of
the Mormon Church, when the first black couple got sealed
in the temple and they were standing there in their
white suits. Could see in the temple everybody wears white,
and they were, you know, so they were I mean,

(02:39:42):
can you imagine being a black person joining the Mormon Church.
I mean that's like, you know, being a Jew and
joining the Nazi Party or being a black person and
joining the Ku Klux Klan. But they do it. They
have most now the black people.

Speaker 5 (02:39:55):
Are in the Mormon Church.

Speaker 2 (02:39:57):
Either A have never heard about this doctor because now
it's like, you know, twenty two years old, and the
Mormons are great at rewriting their history. And let me
tell you a little story about Mormon history. Brigham Young
University has always had very strict dress codes. If you're
a man, you can't have sideburns below here, you can't

(02:40:17):
have a beard, and you can't have any more than
the most minimal mustaches. And of course you have to
have a nice short Mormon missionary type haircut. No hippies
at b YU. Let me tell you well, anyway, one
of the Wisenheimer student leaders who happen to have a beard, said, well, gee,
there's a statue right in the courtyard of Brigham Young

(02:40:38):
University of our founding president, and he had a beard.
Now what do you suppose the response to the Mormon
Church was to that, they chiseled off the beard off
the statue. I kid you not. I kid you not.
So as far as I know of this day, you

(02:40:59):
still can't have a beard. In fact, I was telling
some brother here last night that or wherever it was,
maybe it was this morning, that that I had to
shave off my beard. I had a beard most of
my adult life. And when I became ll Ellen's form president,
they told me you got to get rid of that
beard because it's not godly. And I said, but Jesus

(02:41:21):
had a beard, And I said, well that was two
thousand years ago. I said, yeah, have. But Brigham Young
had a beard, and you should have seen Joseph. Wait,
let me see Joseph Fielding Smith's beard. He looked like
one of those zzy top guys or whatever they got.

Speaker 5 (02:41:36):
To have the real long beards.

Speaker 2 (02:41:38):
He said, well, we don't care what dead prophets did.
Our living prophet doesn't have a beard, and so therefore
you can't have a beard. So I shaved it off,
and right after I got saved in nineteen and eighty four,
my first act of rebellion, my first act of freedom
in Jesus Christ, was to grow this beard back, and
I've had it ever since. Glory to God, helllliyah. Anyway,

(02:42:00):
Oh dear, let's see all right. So moving along, the
Mormon Church has always been rather infamous for not liking
to talk about its past very much. They very much
believe in the principle that was stated in nineteen I
don't know how many of you read the book nineteen
eighty four. In there it was the motto of the

(02:42:23):
Ministry of Truth that those who control the present control
the past, and those who control the past control the future.
And so there's all these stories in the Mormon Church,
even among Mormons, about the church vault, and how there's
this vault, big walk in kind of like a small

(02:42:45):
bank vault in the first Presidency's office building where all
these secret documents are that have god knows what you know,
stuff in them. And we don't know what any of
this stuff is, but it's it's really exciting stuff. And
of course Mormons are into genealogy. They love their history.
They just don't like certain parts of it. And so

(02:43:08):
in fact, many most Mormons are encouraged to do their
family history, to keep journals, you know, and all that.
There's nothing wrong with any of that in and of itself.
So they're very much into that kind of thing. Because
of that, they're into documents. Now, what happened in the
nineteen eighties is there was this young fellow, Mark Coffin,
whose picture you see there. He was a returned Mormon

(02:43:29):
missionary who was supposedly very good at finding documents, ancient documents,
and he found several intriguing things and sold them for
a lot of money.

Speaker 5 (02:43:40):
And then he found this letter.

Speaker 2 (02:43:43):
That was called the can't even known as the Salamander
Letter because in this letter it was supposedly written by
the clyder Joseph Smith, They're a close associated of Joseph
Smith about how the angel Moroni was actually a salamander
and that the angel quote unquote that it brought forth

(02:44:04):
the Book of Mormon was a salamander. Now it's a salamander.
I'm not talking about the lizard. The salamander is a
fiery elemental being in the occult. Okay, So basically what
this guy did, this Hoffman, is he went to the
church leadership. He actually went to the prophet at this time,
Spencer W. Kimball, and he said, I don't want the

(02:44:25):
church to be damaged by this. I love the Mormon
Church and this could really hurt Joseph Smith's reputation in
the Book of Mormon. So I'd be willing to sell
this document to you for like three hundred thousand dollars,
you know, and they bought it. I'm not sure of
that figure. Don't quote me on the figure, but it
was a lot of money. It was at least a

(02:44:45):
couple hundred grand and a church has it, I mean,
it makes more money than that every time, you know,
it turns around. But anyhow, later on I was found
out to be a forgery. Oops, there goes the prophet
I mean, you know, if he's a prophet, why I
couldn't see this as a forgery. So this young man,
he ended up getting into more and more financial trouble
because he was selling documents that he himself had forged.

(02:45:08):
And he was so good the FBI couldn't even tell
it was a forgery. That's how good this guy was.
And he got in some financial trouble, and he ended
up putting pipe bombs in two people's one guy's office
and one person's garage. Blew up one of his business associates,
the Kingdom company were full of nails, nasty stuff. And

(02:45:31):
then the other fellow, he put him in his driveway
in a box, and the fellow's poor wife went out,
picked up the box, blew her up and over the
course of a hew weey, and then he in his
own I think he had a little vw it blew
up with him in it full, and they assumed he
was another person who was a victim of the bomb.

(02:45:52):
But then the forensic people got in there and realized
he wasn't killed. By the way, Hoffman was not killing,
he was very badly injured. That this was it, that
he was the bomber and so he was put on
trial and was a big scandal for the church and
basically Hoffmann plea bardened and an exchange for you know,

(02:46:13):
pleaning down the crime because he murdered two people basically
in cold blood, and the Mormon Church was terrified that
it would have to get on a witness stand that
it's leaders Kimball and Hinckley and some of the other
high level leaders actually had to get on the witness
stand because this made them look really bad because here
there's supposed to be profit steers and revelators and yet

(02:46:33):
they were taken by this you know, twenty five thirty
year old kid. You know. So he got basically a
smaller sentence than a typical guy that knocks over a
gas station in downtown Salt Lake. So that's that's what's happened.
Now in recent years, something has happened since the presidency
of the prophethood of David O. McKay, who reigned from

(02:46:55):
the nineteen fifties to the early sixties. He was a salesman,
that's how he made it millions. And he started getting
the idea that the Mormon Church should present itself door
to door, just like you sell vacuum cleaners or encyclopedias,
and they had a great sales pitch going. And the
church started really growing in the nineteen sixties, and it

(02:47:16):
started mushrooming. I mean, there was like four million Mormons
by the early nineteen by I think early nineteen seventies.

Speaker 5 (02:47:24):
By the time I was in the church.

Speaker 2 (02:47:25):
It was up to eight million. And it was growing
and growing and growing and getting richer and richer and richer.
And by the time I left the church, the church
was crowding ten million people and today is one of
the wealthiest, most powerful churches in the world. The reason
for this astonishing growth, other than the fact that they

(02:47:47):
used these sales type techniques, I think is partly because,
especially in the last twenty years, the Mormon Church has
gone to a lot of advertising. I'm sure many of
you who've seen the TV commercials. They have tons of
money to spend. This church is wealthy beyond anybody's wildest dreams.

(02:48:07):
And in all their advertising and everything they've been doing
in the last fifteen twenty years, they've been de emphasizing
the things that make them unique, and they've been trying
to appear to be just another Protestant church. So, for example,
if you were to go in the visitors center at
Salt Lake Temple Square, you would find a lot of
the things that I saw when I was a Mormon.

(02:48:29):
Aren't there anymore? Things about the vision that Joseph had
and the Sacred Grove, things about the priesthood and all
this stuff.

Speaker 5 (02:48:36):
It's all gone now. Everything's now about Jesus.

Speaker 2 (02:48:39):
And they keep talking about how the Book of Mormon
is just another testament of Jesus Christ. So, because they've
managed to kind of if you will, lie by omission,
and on the other hand, throw millions and millions of
dollars of advertising money at this, they have already been
able to grow very well, to the point that they

(02:49:00):
are one of the fastest growing churches really in the
world today. Now what do these people believe? What makes
them so.

Speaker 5 (02:49:06):
Far off course?

Speaker 2 (02:49:08):
Well, basically, first of all, one of the fundamental concepts
underneath Mormonism is the idea.

Speaker 5 (02:49:15):
Of what they call the Great Apostasy.

Speaker 2 (02:49:18):
This is the idea that at some point back in time,
probably around the time of Constantine, the true Church of
Jesus Christ fell from grace.

Speaker 5 (02:49:29):
It basically went belly up.

Speaker 2 (02:49:31):
And became co opted by Constantine, who was of course
the Roman emperor that supposedly became Christian. And since that
time that the Church has been in darkness, there's been
no true Gospel, no true prophets, et cetera, et cetera.
So that was the first problem then, So we got
over a thousand years of spiritual darkness. Of course, this

(02:49:53):
is interesting because Jesus said that, you know, he would
build his church upon the rock, the gates of Hell
would not prevail against it. And he also said at
the end of Matthew twenty eight that he would be
with us always, even under the end of the age.

Speaker 5 (02:50:07):
So something's amiss here.

Speaker 2 (02:50:09):
But anyway, they believe that then during the Protestant Reformation
with Luther and Calvin and Knox and some of the others,
that the light began to redawn. But that was just
a preparation, Okay, The real light dawned when Joseph Smith
Junior in eighteen thirty restored the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel,

(02:50:30):
as they call it. So that is one fundamental belief,
and that was reflected in the scripture I read you
from their work out of the Joseph Smith History and
the Pearl Great Price that all churches today are basically apostate.
You know what, are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, doesn't matter.
All churches today are essentially apostate. So that's their one

(02:50:54):
concept that's very central. Therefore, we have a need for
living profits to They will tell you, for example that
the Bible, for example, the Eighth Article of Faith the
Mormon Church says, we believe the Bible to be the
Word of God in so far as it's translated correctly.
We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the

(02:51:17):
Word of God. Now look at that. There's no caveat
with the Book of Mormon. They believe the Book of
Mormon is absolutely pristine, perfect and true because it was
buried in a mountain for basically six one thousand and
eleven twelve hundred years. Okay, so it's pure. The Bible,

(02:51:40):
Joseph Smith has told us, has been tampered with by
corrupt priests and monks over the centuries, and so therefore
it cannot be trusted. And we need a living prophet
to help us know how to interpret the scriptures. So,
you know, that's why we need a living prophet. Another
concept within the Mormon Church. And this sounds kind of funny,

(02:52:02):
but a living prophet is better than a dead prophet.

Speaker 5 (02:52:05):
Now in a way.

Speaker 2 (02:52:06):
That sounds sensible. I mean, obviously, if you're alive, it's
better than if you're dead. But on the other hand,
what that means is is that if Isaiah says something
and the living Prophet today Gordon B. Hinckley says something else,
what Isaiah said doesn't matter because Gordon Hinckley is our
living prophet right now, and what he says is what counts. Okay. Now,

(02:52:29):
in the Book of Mormon, basically they have what are
called four Standard Works, and these are all canonical books
for the Mormons. Okay, First of all, there's the Bible,
of course, but then there's this triple combination I mentioned earlier,
the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenance, and the
Pearl of Great Price. So these three books are also

(02:52:51):
part of sacred Scripture according to Mormon doctrine. Now, another
key belief that in the Mormon Church it separates Mormon
from utter churches is their belief that families are forever.
In fact, I had a Mormon friend when I was
a Mormon tell me that he says, if you don't
really believe families are forever, you try going on a

(02:53:14):
trip in a car to Disney World with eight children.
And if families aren't forever, they sure seem like there
forever by the time you get to Orlando. So anyway,
they believe the family unit continues after death if and
only if you are a temple Mormon who is true
and faithful to all your covenants. Now see, they believe

(02:53:36):
they can go to the temple, and we're going to
talk more about this in a few minutes, but they
can go to the temple and be sealed for time
and all eternity and carry on their marriage into heaven
and beyond. And my wife and I did that. And
what this means is they can have internal increase of
their seed. And we'll talk more about that later. Another

(02:53:58):
distinctive belief of Mormonism is they say that there's three
duties of the church, to preach the Gospel, to perfect
the saints.

Speaker 5 (02:54:06):
And to redeem the dead.

Speaker 2 (02:54:08):
Now I don't have any problem with the first two,
but the third one is a little bit odd. They
believe they have to redeem the dead. Now what does
that mean, Well, that means that they see. They look
at there's those two passages in Peter where he talks
about Jesus going and preaching the spirits in prison, and
you know, for this cause is the gospel preach to them.

Speaker 5 (02:54:29):
That are dead.

Speaker 2 (02:54:29):
You know. They claim that what happens is is that
if you died like before the time of Jesus, or
if you died even say right now, but you were
some kind of aborigine or a person who lived out
in the middle of Africa somewhere, and you never heard
about Jesus, you never heard about Joseph Smith, you know,
because you got to know about both of them to

(02:54:51):
really be saved. You understand that. So therefore, what do
you do? You die, you're gonna go to hell. Well,
first of all, Mormons don't exactly believe even how, but
we'll discuss that in a bit later. But the idea
behind what they do is they believe it is their
mandate to go and do genealogy for everyone who's ever lived.

(02:55:13):
They believe that they and right now they have millions
of names in their genealogical database. They spend untold amounts
of money going all over the world. And this is
the church itself looking in church records in Europe, checking cemeteries,
checking courthouse records all over the world, literally trying to

(02:55:33):
find the names of as many dead people as possible
and plus each individual Mormon. Part of your duty, one
of your commandments as a Mormon is you have to
do your own personal family genealogy back at least four
generations or more. So you have to figure out who
your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and great great grandparents were

(02:55:55):
and get the days of their birth, the days of
their death, and the days.

Speaker 5 (02:55:58):
Of their marriage if they're married.

Speaker 2 (02:56:00):
When you get that information, that is sent into the
Genealogical Library in Salt Lake City where it's processed, and
if it's found to be acceptable, then you go and
you do proxy work. It's called work temple proxy, temple
work for the dead.

Speaker 5 (02:56:18):
And what this.

Speaker 2 (02:56:18):
Means is is that you go to the temple and
if it's a relative of years that's one thing, or
it could be if you don't have anybody that you've
done recently, they'll just give you a name at random,
like you know, Lar's store Strand or something from Norway
who died back in eighteen seventy, and you go through
the temple for him, and you get baptized for him,

(02:56:39):
you receive the priesthood for him in proxy, you go
through your endowns and if he was married, you get
married to his wife by proxy. If that information is available,
and what they believe happens, then is that up in
spirit prison, Mormon missionary angels come and knock at your
door of Lars whatever is, and missus Lars and says, okay,

(02:57:04):
you've just gone through all your ordinances down on earth.
Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and
Joseph Smith? And if they say yes to poof, they
instantly go to the celestial kingdom. If they say no,
they go down. So that's how it works, and that's
why Mormons are so into genealogy. And that's why if

(02:57:25):
you I mean, I'll tell you if any of you
are doing that as a hobby, and I don't believe
there's anything wrong with genealogy. The best place to go
to get records is the Mormons now have a website
where you can go and you can look up your
family line and everything.

Speaker 5 (02:57:38):
They're very good at it.

Speaker 2 (02:57:39):
You know, they've spent they've spent a king's ransom over
the years But here's the funny thing about this is
if you look at it, it takes about an hour
and a half to two hours to do somebody in
the temple for the dead, because that's how on that's
flat out as short a time as you can do
the ritual, and you can only do it one in

(02:57:59):
a time. And I can remember when I would go
to the Washington Temple in DC, because that was our temple,
they'd have a computer readout they'd actually show you okay, tick,
you know, because there might be one hundred and fifty
or two hundred people in that temple at the same time,
all doing rituals for the dead, and they keep track
of it. But they the Mormons can't even keep up

(02:58:19):
with a death rate. Right now. People are dying faster
than the Mormons can do them, to say nothing of
the fact that there's supposedly someone figured out, lord knows how,
that there's over thirteen billion people who have lived on
the earth since the dawn of creation and the Mormons
got to do all of them. So far, they've done
several million, but that's a long way from thirteen billion.

(02:58:43):
So anyhow, it's kind of of course, they believe they'll
have the millennium to do it, and that's what they think.
They're going to spend a lot of their time in
the millennium is doing work for the dead, because when
they're in the millennium, they won't have to work for
a living. So anyway, who knows this is I don't
know how well you can see the picture, but this
is where I was baptized for the dead forty two
times in one day. That is the baptismal font for

(02:59:06):
the dead. And if you'll notice, it looks just like
the brazen sea that's mentioned in the Bible. It's supported
by twelve brazen oxen and the thing on top there
that looks like a cereal bowl, that's the font. And
by the time this is an older picture. By the
time I was in there to actually have a computer

(02:59:27):
monitor there and it was a huge, large monitor, and
it would bring up the name and I would walk
into the font and they'd say, you know, brother Sneblin,
having authority the name of Jesus Christ, I baptize you
for and on behalf of Clement Sneblin, the name of
the Father and Son on the Holy Ghost. Poosh, And
then the next name would come up brother snevelin having authority,

(02:59:48):
blah blah blah and poosh. So I got baptized forty
two times in one day because some lady in the war.
Because you see, only men can do men and only
women can do women. So like I had to ask
my wife to go through from my departed mother. So
that is the baptismal font in the temple in Salt Lake.
It's the nicest one and it is something to see.

(03:00:08):
It's quite awesome. Okay, I guess we talked about this. Okay,
Now here's the other thing.

Speaker 5 (03:00:15):
The neat not.

Speaker 2 (03:00:17):
Neat concept, but key concept in the LDS Church is
the need for the priesthood. They believe that without the priesthood,
you can't do anything. There is no authority. Without the priesthood.
You can't be baptized, you can't be sealed, you can't
be married, you can't have your sins forgiven.

Speaker 5 (03:00:35):
Nothing.

Speaker 2 (03:00:37):
All of the power is contained in the priesthood. It's
not quite like what you're thinking of saying the Catholic Church,
because in the Mormon Church, everybody over the age of fourteen,
it's a man has the priesthood. It's a male unless
you're some real lowlife or something. I mean, if you're
some you know, evil person that smokes or drinks coffee

(03:00:57):
or is out there you know, smoking or chewing, going
with girls that do or whatever you know, then you
won't get the priesthood. But normally you get the priesthood
if you're if you're fourteen years old, and anybody at
the age of fourteen can do the sacrament, which means
their Lord's Supper. You can baptize at the age of
I think it's fourteen or yeah, fourteen years old, you

(03:01:18):
can baptize people. So all of this is within any See,
there can be no prophecy, there can be no authority
without the priesthood. And I already talked about how shaky
the foundation of their priesthood is about the baptismal charade
in the Sesquehanna River.

Speaker 5 (03:01:34):
So, but this is a key idea of Theirs.

Speaker 2 (03:01:36):
They don't believe exactly like Christians do, that there's a
priesthood of all believers that if you're if you're born again,
as Peter said, you're part of a royal nation, a
holy you know, peculiar people, a holy nation, a royal
priesthood that isn't what the Mormons believe. So they believe
that only men hold the priesthood, although women have this

(03:01:58):
cute little thing they say church. They say, people say
that that women in our church don't hold the priesthood.
But every night when I go to bed, I hold
the priesthood, meaning she hugs her white, her husband, you
know in that cute doesn't it just make you want
to go ooh? Anyway, high level of treacle in the
Mormon Church, let me worry.

Speaker 5 (03:02:19):
Okay, what about the sacrament?

Speaker 2 (03:02:21):
Well, when the Mormons say the sacrament, it is something
they do once a week and it's kind of like
a Protestant communion service. They have two elders or occasionally
priests up there in front, and they have the table
with the little cuppy things, just like you probably do
in your churches, except they use wonderbread and water.

Speaker 5 (03:02:42):
That's what their sacrament is.

Speaker 2 (03:02:44):
They might occasionally if someone gets real ambitious one of
the Relief Society sisters, and I should tell you the
Relief Society is the woman's auxiliary of the Mormon Church.
Their motto is charity never faileth and it's the Relief
Society that has responds for doing all of the charitable
work in the church. They are famous for being able

(03:03:05):
to produce a cast role on demand virtually instantly. They
can have a castrole if someone is sick, or if
some sisters come home from the hospital just having a
baby band there's twenty castroles the door within five minutes.
I mean, it's phenomenal. But anyway, so every now I'm
in our relief society's sister will make some homemade bread,
but they just use regular old bread, and they just

(03:03:26):
I can remember many times standing in the back of
the of the sacra, of the of the meeting hall,
breaking up loaves of wonderbread, the little chunks, and having
it sit on this little gold platter, you know, and
then they go out there and they pray over it
and they and it's not you know, it's pretty much
like the Protestant idea of communion. But you know, the
question is asked, why water, I mean, does water look

(03:03:50):
like blood or at least grape juice welt. The story
is that one time, and this is this one of
those Mormon stories you get lots of they call faith
promoting stories in the Mormon Church. The story is the
one day Joseph Smith had sent somebody out to get
a cake of wine to use for sacrament meeting, and

(03:04:12):
they were coming back with this cake of wine on
their back, and this was in the middle of some
controversies about the church, and an angel stopped him and
he said, why are you stopping me? And he says,
because someone has put poison in that cask of wine,
and so they dumped it out.

Speaker 5 (03:04:30):
And they used water.

Speaker 2 (03:04:31):
And so Joseph Smith decreed at that point that we
should always just use water, because it's very hard to
poison water, and it's so easy to come by and everything. Well,
I believe there's a reason for this, and that it's
a very good way of keeping people from thinking about
the blood of Jesus, because if you're meditating on this
hunk of wonderbread and this little cup of water, where's

(03:04:52):
the blood? It's a bloodless thing. And that's because Mormons
don't believe they're saved by the blood of Jesus. In fact,
an Earth Mormon apostle orson Pratt and now hold onto
your seats, folks. He said that the blood of Jesus
has no more power than the blood of a dead dog.
You know, can imagine where he is now anyway, that's

(03:05:12):
the sacrament, and they do that once a week. Now
there's burying your testimony. This is another important thing. Now
when Christians think of testimony, they think of you know, okay,
this is how I got saved. That's I gave you
my testimony an hour ago or so. Well, that's not
what Mormons think. Mormons believe a testimony is when you

(03:05:34):
get up there and you say something to this effect,
I bury you my testimony that God lives, that the
Mormon Church is true, that Jesus is the Christ, that
the Book of Mormon is true. By the way, I
really love my wife, and I really love my kids,
and I love my you know, and they literally grown

(03:05:56):
men break down and cry. It's it's kind of sweet
in a way, and it's genuine.

Speaker 5 (03:06:01):
I don't doubt for a minute to this genuine because
I did it.

Speaker 2 (03:06:04):
You know. They they're up there in front of a
two hundred person ward weeping about how much they love
their wives or or they'll have little kids. You know,
a five year old kid gets to think, I believe it.
They Justph's mess is a prophet, and I believe in
Jesus name. Amen. They get him started real early, almost
when you're knee high to a seagull. You're up there

(03:06:25):
giving your testimony. And notice how Jesus is hardly mentioned. Okay,
now on fast and testimony, I mean this is when
they train people because once a month, and I don't
think this is a bad idea. What the Mormon Church
it requires its people to do is on one Sunday
a month, they fast and they take all the money

(03:06:46):
that they would have spent on food for that day
and give it to the church welfare Fund and then
that's distributed to the poor of the war. And then
and the fasting is kind of like Christians believe it's
supposed to help them be more spiritually or whatever. And
then it's the one week of the month where nothing
is scripted, because usually everything in a Mormon church service

(03:07:08):
is scripted. And I got to tell you one thing
about the church. If you ever go to a Mormon church,
prepare for some world class boredom. There are no trained
speakers or preachers in the Mormon Church because there's no
professional clergy. Usually it's it's teenagers getting up and reading

(03:07:28):
some article out of the Ensign magazine, or it's some
insurance salesman. I think it'st insurance salesmen. They're not great preachers,
usually getting up and mumbling their way through some article
they tried to write, or some woman getting up and
talking about you know, how you know baking bread relates
to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how great it

(03:07:49):
is to have home food storage. That's the Mormon meeting usually,
and every word has to be approved by the bishop.
You have to present your both in advance to the
bishop to be sure it's doctrinally correct, and might understand
the bishop like a pastor. I mean, when we think
of bishop, we think of some guy who's high up
there somewhere, but in the Mormon Church, of bishop is

(03:08:10):
just the head of a local carrugation. So anyhow, this
is this fast meeting. Testimony meeting is the one weekend
of the month where you can get up there and
say anything you.

Speaker 5 (03:08:20):
Want, and you got to understand something.

Speaker 2 (03:08:23):
In Mormon circles, it's very bad etiquette to interrupt someone
in their burying their testimony. So some people might get
up there and start out fine and say I want
to bury my testimony that Jesus is the Christ and
jose Smith is true and blah blah blah, and he
starts saying, oh, and by the way, I believe that
Jesus is coming back in a Ufo and that there
are ancient American air fields down in Peru and the

(03:08:45):
flying Saucers landed down there.

Speaker 5 (03:08:47):
And by the way, I love my wife.

Speaker 2 (03:08:49):
I mean, it could go on for hours, literally, and
we had some sacrament meetings that were fast meetings that
ran like a half hour to forty five minutes overtime
because there's no way to stop them. They say in
Jesus name, Amen, that's it. You got to sit there
and listen, no matter what bilgs they might be spouting.
And so it's I used to kind of look forward

(03:09:10):
to it, you know, because you never knew what was
gonna happen. Otherwise everything was so drollingly monotonous and boring.
I mean, you know, it was more interesting to watch
ice melt than it was to go to a Mormon
church service. But I did it. I did it out
of a sense of duty because I really love the church,
and I figure, well, somehow, Ruther, I'm getting brownie points

(03:09:32):
for this up in heaven.

Speaker 5 (03:09:33):
It's another brick in my celestial mansion.

Speaker 2 (03:09:35):
Yes, you know.

Speaker 5 (03:09:37):
Well, here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (03:09:38):
In fact, I gotta tell you there's a cartoon, and
one thing I will give the Mormons they do laugh
at themselves. There was a cartoon in a Mormon magazine
where it showed these two guys coming up to heaven
and there's this one guy who's like this, this haggard
looking prophet, you know, and he's in chains, and you
kind of think of a Dmitri Dudaman type person who's

(03:10:01):
been horribly beaten for the gospel and tortured and you know,
and all of this. And he's up there and the
angel says, well, you know, why should I let you
into heaven? And he goes through this whole thing about
how he was tortured and tormented horribly and this and that,
and okay, you can go in. The next guy comes
up and he's this sort of nice, normal looking guy
in a suit and time and says how about He says, well,

(03:10:22):
I was a faithful warm and I sat through sacra
meetings my whole life. Oh, you get a higher place
in heaven, you know, because it was more torture to
do that than it was to be beaten with an
inch of your life.

Speaker 5 (03:10:31):
The Mormons know it's boring.

Speaker 2 (03:10:33):
They just sort of put up with it. But the
thing about these testimony meetings is it's a kind of
mind control because.

Speaker 5 (03:10:39):
Mormons are trained like this from birth.

Speaker 2 (03:10:43):
And if you watch a Mormon and they start doing
this to you, because invariably they will if you start
really witnessing to them and really kind of pressing them.

Speaker 5 (03:10:51):
A little bit.

Speaker 2 (03:10:51):
Of course, you want to do it in love, but
all of a sudden, watch their eyes when they start
doing this. Well, what do you say? Might be so,
but I bury you my testimony that Joseph Smith is
a prophet of God and Jesus Christ lives, and that
the Mormon churches. Watch their eyes. Their eyes are like going,
you know.

Speaker 5 (03:11:08):
Like you know, they're like they're hypnotized.

Speaker 2 (03:11:11):
And the weirdest thing you can do to them at
this point, I'll give you a little secret.

Speaker 5 (03:11:14):
This is like spiritual warfare training, okay.

Speaker 2 (03:11:17):
Is if they start doing this to you, you say
wait a minute, and they'll go I mean, it's like
you knock them out.

Speaker 5 (03:11:26):
Of their trance.

Speaker 2 (03:11:27):
And you say, why do you believe Joseph Smith is
true or a true prophet or whatever? Why do you
believe the Church is true. What rational reason do you have? Now,
what they'll tell you, Well, I have a burning in
my bosom. No, that's what they will say. They will
literally say that my heart felt strangely warmed when I

(03:11:47):
read the Book of Mormon.

Speaker 5 (03:11:49):
Yeah, what did you have for dinner that night?

Speaker 2 (03:11:51):
Anyway, So that's the sacrament meeting and or the fasting
testimony meeting, and it's a very important part of the
Mormon thing. Now. They they also believe in temples and
restored worship. They believe that their temples are virtually identical
of the temple that Solomon built, and it's the holiest
thing they can do is to go in partake of
their own endowment. Now, what's an endowment, Well, it means

(03:12:13):
literally a gift, and they believe the endowment is the
most important gift they can receive, and that's the ability
to marry for time and all eternity, and to receive
the tokens of the priesthood, the sacred secret tokens of
the priesthood. Now, eternal marriages and work for the dead
also can only be done in temples.

Speaker 5 (03:12:34):
Then there's the Word of Wisdom.

Speaker 2 (03:12:36):
This is the LDS Health Code that's found in section
eighty nine of Doctrinan covenants. Basically, it's this no alcohol,
no tobacco, no caffeine. They didn't use that word, of
course in the original revelation because nobody knew what caffeine was.
They basically said to stay away from hot drinks, and
a church over the years has interpreted that to mean coffee, tea,

(03:13:00):
or any caffeinated beverages.

Speaker 5 (03:13:01):
What are their hot or cold?

Speaker 2 (03:13:03):
And then it says, and most Mormons ignore this last thing,
it says meat only sparingly or in winter. Then they
have the food storage in the bishop's warehouses. It's true
Mormons do take care of their own, but only their own.
What do I mean by that, Well, they have an
astonishing church welfare system that a lot of churches could

(03:13:25):
learn from. They have their own industries. They have woolen mills,
they have canneries, they have farms, they have ranches. And
what happens is, let's say you lose your job, which
is happening a lot nowadays.

Speaker 5 (03:13:38):
Well you go to your.

Speaker 2 (03:13:39):
Bishop and you say, Bishop, I'm sorry, I can't I
can't support my family right now. And they don't encourage people.

Speaker 5 (03:13:46):
To go on welfare at all.

Speaker 2 (03:13:48):
In fact, they're very proud of the fact that very
few Mormons are on welfare. So what they'll do is
they'll give you free food every week for as long
as you need that. If necessary, they'll pay your electric bill.
That's what this fast and testimony money is for. But additionally,
there's no such thing as a free lunch. You have
to go and work in the local cannery, the local

(03:14:10):
woolen mill, the local farm, whatever you know, and work
the amount of money to pay that back, because they
believe that idleness is a sin and that you know,
none of this is really wrong. I think it's kind
of a neat thing that they're doing. But they will
never take care of someone that's not a Mormon, and
this is kind of freaked out a few people, and
so sometimes people don't donate food, and it's taken to

(03:14:33):
what is called, euphemistically the bishop's warehouse, which is really
not the bishop's warehouse, but it's it's somewhere in a
community and they have I mean, it's like going into
a supermarket. You can actually go and shop there in
a city where there's lots of Mormons. I mean, that
may not be true around here, but if you were
to go out to like Idaho or Utah, you would
find Mormon supermarkets that are called Bishop's warehouse. And if

(03:14:55):
you present a note from your bishop saying that you
can go there, you can go on up and it's
all free, doesn't cost a thing. Okay.

Speaker 5 (03:15:04):
In fact, when I rent into.

Speaker 2 (03:15:05):
Some hard times and for a while, the Mormon church
provided us food, it provided us with insurance money every
month to parent medical insurance.

Speaker 5 (03:15:15):
It was a good deal.

Speaker 2 (03:15:17):
Of course, you have to be faithful. If you're not
a good Mormon, they won't do that if you haven't
been paying your in the Oh, we got to talk
about tithing for a minute, because Mormons now get this,
A typical faithful Mormon ties at the rate of twenty
five percent. Now think of that, because they're required to
give ten percent of gross whatever their gross income is.

(03:15:40):
You got to give that right off the top. God
gets it, and I think that's fine. But now in
addition to that, they have their church welfare offering, they
have their church building fund offering, and they also might
give money to like say, help build a temple in
the region or something like that. And so a lot
of Mormons, and I'm giving about twenty five percent of

(03:16:01):
their gross income to the Mormon Church. And if you
don't do that, A, you don't qualify for church welfare.
B you don't you don't get into the temple. You
cannot ever go to the temple unless you're a faithful
tithe payer. And they see the bishop. If you go
to the bishop and ask to have a temple recommend

(03:16:22):
which is a little card you get so you can
go to the temple, they have the keys of discernment,
you know, and they can tell if you're not full
tithe payer, and they can tell if you're cheating on
your wife, or they can tell if you're not paying
all your income tax. So that's another whole thing. But
that's why the church is so wealthy, you know. It's
because partly because first of all, it invests things very well.

(03:16:45):
It has some of the great captains of industry are
the heads of the Mormon Church from any given generation.
Most of the people that run the Mormon Church are
self made millionaires, you know, and they know how to
use their money.

Speaker 5 (03:16:58):
They know how to invest it wisely.

Speaker 2 (03:17:00):
And also because people tithe so generously, because if they
think if they don't, they're damned. See because we have
the Age of Grace. Amen, you know we believe, oh,
we can give whatever we want. You know, lotdie die,
you know, here's a quarter for you, pastor you know, well,
you know, and what are you gonna do? There are
good things and bad things about grace. But I believe

(03:17:22):
in the in grace. Believe me, I'm not knocking in
now here's what's wrong with the Mormon Church. And I
believe there's certain things that we can agree to disagree about,
you know, like do you have wine or grape juice
in communion? Do you baptize by sprinkling or dunking? Do
you sing the old standard hymns? Or do you do
worship choruses? You know that kind of stuff. All that's

(03:17:44):
not important really in the vast scheme of things. But
there are certain non negotiable things that make you a Christian.
The nature of God, What do you believe about that?
Who is Jesus? What must I do to be saved?
And the Bible and the nature of So we're gonna
look at these things this through this, We're gonna use

(03:18:05):
this grid so to speak, and examine what Mormons believe
about these things. Well, first of all, the Mormons die
the Trinity. They believe that the Trinity is a pagan concept. Instead,
they believe in a polytheistic universe. Now that's a big word,
but it means essentially that there's many gods. Early Mormon

(03:18:26):
prophets taught that there are more gods out there in
the universe than there are sands on the seashore. They
believe that our God, who rules over our solar system,
his name is Eloheim and his son is Jehovah. Now
Jehovah is the pre existent name of Jesus.

Speaker 5 (03:18:46):
So you know, already we're a little weird here.

Speaker 2 (03:18:49):
But anyhow, they believe that our God is under other gods,
that there's a committee of gods above him, that if
he does something wrong they can fire him and replace.

Speaker 5 (03:18:59):
Him with a different god.

Speaker 2 (03:19:01):
Okay, So obviously this is not the supreme being of
the universe. This is just some local tin pot deity. Okay. Now, Also,
God the Father is not a spirit, but he is
a man of body parts and passions with everything that means.
In other words, basically, if you'd want to imagine the
Mormon God, think of it as kind of like Superman

(03:19:22):
without the blue underwear. That's what you know God is,
he's an extraordinarily wise, extraordinarily powerful being. But he's not
all powerful, he's not all present, he's not all knowing.

Speaker 5 (03:19:35):
Okay, he might be in one corner of the universe.

Speaker 2 (03:19:38):
Need to have to send an angel to fly off
to a different part of the universe and tell them
what's going on over here in promix a centauri or something.
So he is not omniscient. Now additionally that they have
a I think it was Lorenzo Snow who was one
of the early Mormon prophets. He said this, as man
is God once was, as God is, man may become.

(03:19:58):
In other words, you can become a God. If you're
a worthy Mormon man, you can become a God. And
if you're a worthy Mormon woman, you can become a
domestic goddess. Every wonder where Roseanne got that expression domestic goddess.
That's because she was raised as a Jew in Utah.
Did you know that and believe it? This is totally irrelevant.

(03:20:21):
Her father made his living selling crucifixes door to door
in Utah and he was Jewish. No wonder, she's a
little screwed up anyway. So that's literally what women believe.
They believe that they will be goddesses someday, and the
men believe they will become gods.

Speaker 5 (03:20:41):
And that is one of the.

Speaker 2 (03:20:43):
Cardinal Mormon doctrines is called the Law of eternal Progression.
Now the Bible, on the other hand, says, this God
is not a man, that he should lie, not of
the son of man, that he should repent. I'm not
going to read this whole passage, but in verse eight
there it says God is speaking. He says, you are
my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there

(03:21:05):
is no God I know not any So if God
doesn't know about any other gods, how come there are
all these gods out there? Is he ignorant or what? Okay?
And of course the Bible also says, I am the Lord.
I change not. So this idea that God can evolve,
that he can be a man and evolve into godhood
is not true. And of course Jesus himself said that

(03:21:26):
God is a spirit. So then we have Jesus. That's
the famous statue of Jesus that is in the It's
an awesome statue. It's about twenty feet high in the
Mormon Visitors Center in Salt Lake. And basically, Jesus is
just the son of God, but he is not Almighty God.
He is our elder brother. His younger brother is Lucifer.

(03:21:49):
And then we're behind somewhere. We're all Jesus' little brothers
and sisters. So we're all qualitatively the same. There's no
difference between me and Jesus, except Jesus is old and
wiser and smarter. Jesus is also begotten by God the
Father having sex with Mary. Now, most Mormons they don't
even know about that doctrine, but it was taught to

(03:22:10):
me in a meeting by a general authority as recently
as nineteen eighty four, So that isn't some ancient arcane
doctrine they no longer believe in. So basically, think about it.
Mary is one of God's daughters, according to Mormon theology,
and he came down and had sex with her to
produce Jesus. So Jesus is a child of celestial incest.
The atonement had nothing to do with the Cross we already.

(03:22:33):
In fact, they believe that the atonement took place in
the garden of Gittsemite, when Jesus suffered there and sweat
great drops of blood. So notice how all these different
groups always tippitoe around Calvary. They don't want to talk
about Calvary. The j Dubs don't, the Mormons don't. The
devil doesn't like that cross. But the Bible says, in

(03:22:53):
the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God one Timothy three sixteen, without controversy.
Great is the mystery of God. Inness God was manifest
in the flesh.

Speaker 5 (03:23:04):
That's Jesus, folks, that's Jesus.

Speaker 2 (03:23:08):
And of course this talks about how it says that
the Jesus was conceived by the Holy ghost. Matthew one
point twenty. I'm running out of time here, So again
this is the same thing. The Holy ghosts will come
upon thee the power of the Highest sholl over shadowy.
That's what it teaches. Now, what about salvation, Well, in

(03:23:29):
there's three degrees of salvation in the Mormon Church, three
degrees of heaven.

Speaker 5 (03:23:33):
If you're this kind of.

Speaker 2 (03:23:36):
Couch potato bozo who maybe you go to church on
Christmas in Easter, or maybe you're even some low life
like a pimper, a prostitute or a drug dealer. You know, whatever,
you're going to go to the Celestial Kingdom. And that
is basically a place that's just like this. It's got storms,
it's got disease, it's got pain, it's got injury, it's

(03:23:57):
got mosquitoes and gnats, and that's where are going to
be for all eternity. Now, if you're a worthy, hard
working member of any religion Buddhist, Lutheran, Catholic, or whatever,
and you're living up to all the light you have,
you will go to the terrestrial Kingdom, as will most Mormons.
This is a place that's like the Garden of Eden,

(03:24:17):
where you'll live on Earth for all eternity in paradisacal glory.
And you'll get to see Jesus, because Jesus will reign
over this kingdom. But you will never see Heavenly Father
the celestial kingdom. This is for the elite few Mormons
who have been to the Temple and kept all of
their covenants therein and there they will see Heavenly Father.

(03:24:40):
And now you got to keep at least six hundred
commandments and also the Word of Wisdom. Temple covenants are
needed to be obeyed at all times, being true and
faithful to those covenants. There's four laws that you're introduced
to in the temple. Law of obedience basically, the husband

(03:25:01):
swears he puts his arm to the square, and he
swears that he will obey God and all church leaders
as if they were God. The wife swears that she
will obey her husband as he obeys the Lord, as
if he were God. The law of sacrifice is that
you basically are willing to offer everything that you possess,

(03:25:23):
everything that you have, to the furtherance of the Kingdom.

Speaker 5 (03:25:25):
Of God here on earth. In other words, the Mormon Church.

Speaker 2 (03:25:28):
The law of the Gospel is basically the idea that
you have to be a member of the church in
order to be saved. The law of chastity is that
you keep yourself pure. Basically, it's what the church ready
Christian would believe, that you keep yourself pure until marriage,
and after marriage, you're faithful to your wife. Who is

(03:25:49):
really damned well. Bruce Armacconkie says that anybody in the
Mormon Church that does not make it to the folestial
kingdom is eternally damned. Now, only one in ten Mormons
go to the temple, and of them, only about half
of them ever return and of them, only about half
have their temple.

Speaker 5 (03:26:09):
Recommend and are considered worthy.

Speaker 2 (03:26:13):
So that means the Mormon Church is somewhere around a
ninety five to ninety seven percent failure rate.

Speaker 5 (03:26:17):
Most of those people are damned.

Speaker 2 (03:26:20):
Wouldn't that be a great church to join our church
and you've got a one to ten chance of making it.
Isn't it wonderful to be, you know, part of the
True Church of Jesus Christ, where you're saved by simple
faith and grace. You know, Hallelujah, blood atonement. Why are
there firing squads in Utah? This doctrine is not well

(03:26:40):
talked about anymore. Mormons are very embarrassed by it, but
it's in the books. There are five things for which
the blood of Jesus will never atone murder, adultery, homosexuality,
apostasy from the True Church, and marrying a black person.
Those are the five unpardonable sins. And if you're one

(03:27:01):
of the if you commit one of those five sins,
the only way you will ever get into any of
the kingdoms, any of the kingdoms, is to have your
blood spilled out upon the earth so that the smoke
of its incense might ascend to heaven. Think about that.
That's why I and Ed Decker and many others who
have left the church have had death threats against us.

(03:27:23):
But like I tell people, my dad can beat up
their dad. Amen, hallelujah. But DA believe the only way
to save us is to kill us. Think about that.
That's why if you ever any of you heard of
Gary Gilmore, he was a guy in Utah who was
a gas station. I mean, I'm sorry, he was a

(03:27:43):
crook who robbed a gas station, shot the guy and
murdered him. And he was not a very good Mormon,
but he was a Mormon, and he begged to have
a firing squad, and they did. They shot him because
he knew that was the only way he was going
to get to heaven. But the Bible, as we know
says we are saved by grace through faith without works.
Now what about revelation. Well, Mormons believe the Bible is

(03:28:06):
flawed and insufficient. It needs to be corrected by a
living profit. We've already kind of talked about that. Now
here's the funny thing we've mentioned before. What's in this
triple combination book of Mormon Doctor and Covenants, Pearl Great
Price but there's problems with these things. For one thing,
they contradict one another. The Book of Mormon, for example,
contradicts many LDS doctrines.

Speaker 5 (03:28:28):
Now, let me explain what we mean by that.

Speaker 2 (03:28:31):
Just as an example I've mentioned already, Mormons deny the Trinity.
Let me read to you. This is right out of
Mormon scripture. Let's see, we're going to go to second
Ne file eleven seven. That's one of the books in
the Book of Mormons. Second Ne File eleven seven. Not

(03:28:51):
to be confused with Great Knee High. Any of you
watch Mash in the Old Days? Okay, it says that
there is a God, and he is Christ, and he
cometh in the fullness of his own time. That sounds
like pretty good preaching, doesn't it.

Speaker 5 (03:29:12):
That Jesus is God. Then we go to twenty six.

Speaker 2 (03:29:15):
Twelve of the same thing. Jesus is the Christ, the
eternal God. Pretty good. Now, all this is contrad in
Mormon theology thirty one, chapter thirty one. This is Listen

(03:29:36):
to this, This is right out of the Book of Mormon.
And this is the doctrine of Christ. And then the
only and true doctrine of the Father and of the
Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God
without end amen. Now that's clear than the Bible. I mean,
there's only one verse in the whole Bible, which is
one John five seven, which of course all the Apostate
Bibles remove. That teaches that, you know, And there's a

(03:30:00):
about three or four other places where the Book of
Mormon clearly teaches the trinity. And if the Trinity is
a false doctrine, I could do that same thing with
about five other major Mormon doctrines. Why is that, Well,
it's because the Mormon Church is a crazy quilt religion
that was put together patch worked over time. In Joseph
Smith's teachings, beliefs changed from the eighteen thirties to the

(03:30:22):
eighteen forties, but he was stuck with this book.

Speaker 5 (03:30:24):
He couldn't change it once he published it, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:30:29):
So their only answer to that is that a living
prophet is better than a dead prophet, and so therefore
a dead prophet has the right to contradict a pardon me,
a living prophet.

Speaker 5 (03:30:37):
Has the right to contradict a dead prophet. Here's some examples.

Speaker 2 (03:30:41):
Brigham Young said that no black person would hold the
priesthood until every white man ever who lived on the earth,
living or dead, had received the priesthood. Prophet Kimball contradicted
this in nineteen seventy eight, Joseph Smith said that no
one could attain the highest degree of glory without plural marriage.
President woodrof have made it a excommunicable offense to marry

(03:31:02):
more than one wife. So you know, I tell people
the Mormon God changes his mind more often than his underwear.

Speaker 5 (03:31:09):
Then there's the Temple. I wish I had time.

Speaker 2 (03:31:13):
If you want to know more about the temple, you
really got to buy that book that stand showed you
Mormonism's Temple of Doom. But basically there's three parts to
the temple and dowment ceremony. First of all, there's washings
and anointings. This is where you go through and you're
virtually nude. You just have this little like sap a
thing over you and your.

Speaker 5 (03:31:36):
Private parts, etc.

Speaker 2 (03:31:37):
Are washed and anointed by other members of your own sex.
And then you're giving this magical underwear, this temple garment
that's supposed to protect you from danger, as from the
power of the destroyer as long as you're here on
your mission here on earth. That's done first. Then you're
giving you a little package of sacred temple robes and
sent upstairs. Then you go through the Creation Room, the Guard,

(03:32:00):
the Celestial Room, and finally the veil in the Celestial room.
This is I don't know how well you can see it,
but I was in this room that is the Celestial
room of the Salt Lake Temple. You see that little
staircase there, that's where God, pardon me, where Adam and Michael,
pardon me, Adam and Jehovah come down the stairs to

(03:32:20):
create the world. And that little altar there, you say,
a little white cube in the center. That's where a
person who represents everybody kneels at that altar and swears
oaths and covenants to keep the laws of that particular room,
of that particular world.

Speaker 5 (03:32:38):
This is the Celestial Room.

Speaker 2 (03:32:40):
And what you do is you go through and you
learn these secret handshakes in these secret words, and finally
you're ready to go up to the veil. There's this
veil that separates the rest of the temple from the
Celestial Room. And this veil has a square encompass in it.
And the way it works is you come up and
you've been taught prompted on this you come up, you

(03:33:02):
put your foot to the person on the other side
of the veil's foot, knit a knee, hand to back,
breast to breast, mouth to ear, and you embrace through
the veil and the guy on the other side you
got your hand in this handshake thing, and the guy
on the other side is representing heavenly Father, and you
whisper the secret and effable name of the second token

(03:33:25):
of the Melchzedic priesthood into his ear, and if you
know it, he will usher you into the celestial kingdom.
I bet you're all just dying to know what that
secret and effable name is. While you're ready, Health in
the navel, marrow in the bones, strengthen the loins, and
in the sinews, power in the priesthood be upon me

(03:33:48):
and upon my posterity throughout all generations of time and
all eternity. One heck of a name, isn't it? Now?

Speaker 5 (03:33:55):
Doesn't he?

Speaker 2 (03:33:55):
Invention? Jesus? I mean that actually in came it really is.
I document that in my book. But anyhow, you're ushered
into this room, and it's important. Do you understand that
they believe that God the Father literally is in this room.
He's walking around in there. It is like the holy place.

(03:34:16):
Now you see that little room in the center where
the dark door is, that's the Holy of Holies. No
one is allowed in that room except the twelve apostles
and the Prophet. No one ever goes into that room,
but you can, if you've gone through the temple, you
can sit there a while and you can feel the
presence of God in that room. I didn't feel anything,

(03:34:37):
but you know who knows anyway.

Speaker 5 (03:34:42):
And then there's the marriage room. That's it.

Speaker 2 (03:34:45):
That's the ceiling room. And this is where you get
your eternal increase. If you can imagine the man, the
groom kneels on one side of that altar, the bride
kneels on the other side. It's beautiful marble with a
holstered kneelers. You take each other's hands in the patriarchal
grip across that altar. And there you see that kind

(03:35:07):
of throne like chair behind the sealer guy who is
he's a high priest who has direct keys party from
the Prophet. There's only you know, probably one hundred of
these men in the world that have this authority to
do this. And he will stand there and he will
seal you for time and all eternity, and that means
you will go on into the eternities. You will have

(03:35:32):
whoops the wrong way, you will have eternal increase. That
means you'll have babies all through the eternities. And you
know you will have thousands and thousands of spirit children.
If you're a mormern wife, you're gonna be eternally pregnant.
You're gonna be always pregnant. Isn't that special anyway? The

(03:35:54):
Temple ritual was so similar to a Sonic ritual that
for a century the Grand Lodge of Utah declared that
the LDS Church was a clandestine lodge, in other words,
a fake Masonic lodge operating without warrant. There are heavy
influences but both witchcraft, occultism, and Freemasonry in the Temple rites,
which is also believe you could be married for time
and all eternity. Do you know that exact same idea

(03:36:17):
except they did. You don't. By the way, that Mormons
believe in Heavenly Mother. There's actually a Mormon hymn about
Heavenly Mother, and then God and Heavenly Mother are up there.
One guy actually figured it out just to keep going
with the United States. God has to have sex every
seven seconds to keep up with a birthrate in the
United States. And the fellow said, it's a wonder he

(03:36:38):
has time to run the universe. You know, he's having
sex every seven seconds. And of course that's why he
needs many wives, because obviously a woman can only have
one or maybe two or maybe three babies at a time,
you know, under normal conditions. So he's got a harem
up there of hundreds of wives because he's got to
keep the whole earth populated. This exaltation process, which is

(03:37:02):
what they call becoming a god, they call it your exaltation.

Speaker 5 (03:37:06):
It could take millions of years.

Speaker 2 (03:37:07):
Now, this is what you get if you make it
through all as if you keep all your covenants, you
will eventually get your own solar system, all yours, you know,
kind of like those SimCity games, you know on the computers.
You populate it with your very own spirit children, millions
of them, Millions upon millions of.

Speaker 5 (03:37:25):
These spirit children.

Speaker 2 (03:37:28):
Families are really forever Hallelijah. But what happens to your
firstborn son. See, you're gonna have to have your own Jesus.
Your firstborn son is going to have to go down there,
incarnate and die on the cross for that particular planetary system,
and then they'll all be saved, you know. And of

(03:37:50):
course I already mentioned the idea of a spiritual of
a celestial harem up there. So it's funny. A lot
of people have called Islam a pardon me, Mormonism, the
American Islam. There's a lot of resemblances. They both have
a prophet that started that, they both have fake scripture,
they both have fake revelation, and they both have this
polygamy thing going on, and they both believe that Heaven

(03:38:10):
is basically going to be like the Playboy Club. Okay,
I already talked about that, that he will have to
go down and be crucified to save the people on
that planet. Then there's a sociology of Mormonism, the tragedy
of polygamy.

Speaker 5 (03:38:24):
Polygamy is still going on today.

Speaker 2 (03:38:26):
You probably all heard last year in the news about
that fell out in Utah who had five wives and
the able to threw the book at him. He was
a fundamentalist Mormon, and there's.

Speaker 5 (03:38:35):
Thousands of them in Utah.

Speaker 2 (03:38:37):
Plus it is still practiced secretly today even within the
Mormon Church. I know because I was asked to take
another wife myself, because see, there's a lot of women.
You got to realize, women, if you join the Mormon
Church and you're single, you're damned. You will never get
to the celestial kingdom because if you're not married, you're

(03:38:58):
out of luck. Sorry, ladies. And so the answer is
especially for either women who might be merit, like this
fellow that was or this woman who was presented to
me her husband was a Methodist, would never join the
Mormon Church.

Speaker 5 (03:39:11):
He made it very clear.

Speaker 2 (03:39:12):
And the bishop came to me and said, this guy
is never This woman is never going to make it
unless you want to take her on as your second wife.
My first wife, Sharon said, you know not surprisingly, so
you know so I do believe it is still done. Plus,
there are women who have come to us both before
and after our salvation who told us that they had

(03:39:34):
been horribly abused right up to an including clitterectomies when
they would not obey the priesthood, when they would not
obey the patriarchal order in Utah.

Speaker 5 (03:39:43):
Now that's not done out here.

Speaker 2 (03:39:45):
But that kind of stuff is done in Utah and
in Idaho, where the Mormons are in power, and they
pretty much know they can get away with almost anything. Plus,
child abuse runs very high in the Mormon Church, sadly enough. Also,
women have no voice, they have no priesthood power. And

(03:40:05):
on resurrected morning, you better watch it, because here's what
happens in the temple. When you go through the temple.
I get my name, my secret name that nobody knows
except the president of the temple. My wife gets her
secret name, but I know it. You know why I
need to know it is because the Mormons believe that
on resurrected resurrection morning, Jesus will crack the skies and

(03:40:30):
he will stand over the cemetery where I'm bred, and
he will say, my secret name happened to be Joseph.
He will say, Joseph, come forth, and up I come.
And then I'm supposed to turn around to my wife
and call her forth by her secret name. But if
my wife burned the pot rose too many times, or
if my wife was kind of a shrew, or if

(03:40:50):
maybe I didn't like the way she wore her hair,
and I've heard Mormon men do this, you better watch it.
Dare you burn that pot roase one more time? I
ain't calling you out on a right direction morning. Now, well,
maybe they were kidding, and probably they were, but.

Speaker 5 (03:41:04):
Think how sexist that is. It's a kind of bondage.

Speaker 2 (03:41:10):
Utah has the highest level of teen pregnancy of any
state in the Union. Families really aren't forever. They have
an usually high teen suicide rates. You. I don't know
why that is. They have very strict moral standards, which
is fine, but any and I repeat, any sexual sin
must be confessed face to face to your bishop. If

(03:41:33):
you masturbate, if you fornicate, if you have a homosexual encounter,
if you even look at a dirty picture, you have
to go and confess that to the bishop or it's
not forgiven. Any sexual sin and some other serious sins
have to be confessed to the bishop. And it's not

(03:41:54):
even like the catholtures. We have to go into a
little box and be anonymous. You have to stand there
and face this guy, you know, who you so admire
and so look up to, and blushing furiously, you have
to say they masturbated. And some of these young men
and maybe young women, they actually go out and shoot themselves.
They're so embarrassed because they can't live up. See there's

(03:42:17):
no grace in the Mormon Church whatsoever. And if you
are caught with any of these sins, you cannot be
on a you cannot go on a mission with a
very important kind of right of passage if you will,
especially for Mormon young men. I mean, if you like you,
if you go to the bishop and say I have
a problem with masturbation, your mission might be postponed for

(03:42:39):
two or three years until you can prove that you're pure,
and then you can go like a couple of years
without committing any kind of improprieties. So you know, there's
also a lot of spouse abuse because many men believe
that that they have the right to smack their women around. Although,
to the Church's credit, just about the time I was

(03:43:00):
leaving the church, the church leaders started speaking out against that. Gee,
it only took them one hundred and fifty years. A
lot of women have problems with addiction. Not addiction to drugs, well,
addiction to drugs, but prescription drugs. You taught in the
nineteen seventies and eighties had the highest rate of value
of abuse of any state in the Union among women.

(03:43:22):
Why do you think that is, Well, imagine this. You
have eight nine, ten, fourteen.

Speaker 5 (03:43:29):
Children, boom boom boom boom boom boom boom, one after another.

Speaker 2 (03:43:35):
You've got to be perfect all the time. You have
to have this perfect Marabelle Morgan's smile on your face
all the time. You have to be constantly available to
your children, to your husband, you know whatever, all the time.
You can't ever have a problem. You know a friend
of mine who was an ex Mormon too, he was

(03:43:56):
in Idaho in a shopping center and he saw this
sweet little Mormon wife and he knew she was warming
because you can tell because the temple garment. You can
often see it through their their shirts or whatever.

Speaker 5 (03:44:08):
And she was standing there waiting.

Speaker 2 (03:44:10):
To check out, and she had the perfect dress, you know,
perfect they all Marrion Winter, I said, to look like
June Cleaver, you know, dresses, pearls, perfect hair, except June
and Clever only had two kids, and plus she had Ward.
I mean, he was a real man's man, you know. Anyway,

(03:44:30):
and what happened is this woman was standing there, she
had an infant in the cart, a toddler beside the
infant in the cart, another toddler.

Speaker 5 (03:44:40):
Just it looked like they might have been twins.

Speaker 2 (03:44:42):
Down on the ground next to her who was pulling
on her nylons and pulling.

Speaker 5 (03:44:46):
Them to the point of that they were shredding it.

Speaker 2 (03:44:48):
The other there was another kid who was about three
years old who was like this, and this owner was
standing there and she's trying to have this smile and
you could just see it and kind of start to crack,
and Eddie.

Speaker 5 (03:45:00):
Bowen she would, you know, grab something and go postal.

Speaker 2 (03:45:03):
You know. He said he really felt sorry for her
because he could tell she was trying so hard to
be to be perfect, and that's hard to I mean,
it's hard to raise that many kids, even if you've
got the Holy Spirit. Amen. Women, you know, imagine if
you don't, imagine if you've got an unclean spirit. And

(03:45:27):
so there's only two ways Mormon women have an out.
One is chocolate. The other one is prescription drugs. And
so usually you end up having either Mormon women than
are chocolate addicts, or a lot of them are addicted
or abusing in some way psychotropic drugs with you know,
the consent of their doctor. They're a psychiatrist. So and

(03:45:52):
they're still struggling with a race issue to this very day.
A lot of Mormons are very racist. It is still
believed clandestinely they don't talk about it openly, that marrying
a black person is an unpardonable sin. And plus the
Mormons treat the Indians very badly. One fact, the only

(03:46:13):
Navajo general authority. A general authority is like a high
level kind of like a cardinal. In the Catholic Church,
there was a Navajo named George P. Lee who was
a general authority. He was a member of the Council
of seventy and he resigned from the church. He accused
the church of spiritual genocide because what it was doing. See,
Mormons used to teach that if a Lamanite, that is

(03:46:34):
to say, an Indian became a Mormon, they would turn white.
That used to be part of church doctrine because that
happens in the Book of Mormon. But since it's never happened,
they kind of backed off that. But they would adopt
Indian kids off the reservation in the Mormon families, strip
them of all their cultural identity, and make them be

(03:46:55):
white in delightsome even if they weren't.

Speaker 5 (03:46:57):
And this League guy got real upset.

Speaker 2 (03:47:00):
Well, he ended up he caused a big scandal in
the late in the early and it was the early nineties.
He he stalked out of the church, made a big mess.
And he even told a friend of Ed's, Ed Decker,
I used to work with. He said, he stood in
the in the room of the guy who is now
the prophet of the church. At the time, he was

(03:47:20):
second in command, and this guy looked down from his
office down into the like a sixty story office building,
and he said he stood there like this, and he says,
all the gold in the city flows through my veins,
and I'm a living God. That's when he decided it
was trying to bug out on this thing. This guy

(03:47:43):
was like a megalomaniac.

Speaker 5 (03:47:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:47:48):
Politically, they originally experimented the Mormons did with what they
called the United Order, which was a communistic economy, which
never worked very well. As we know, communism never does.
And they believe it will be brought back in the millennium.
They believe the Constitution will hang by a thread. This
is right in their scriptures and at the Elders of Israel,

(03:48:09):
meaning the church priesthood leaders will save the United States.
They will be the only ones who can do it.
Yet all LDS leaders who are seventy five or eighty
years old or older. In the early days when they
went to the temple, one of the oaths they did
is they had to promise that every single day they
would call down curses upon the United States of America

(03:48:31):
to avenge the blood of the prophets Joseph and Hiram Smith,
who were both shot at Carthage Jail. The guy who's
the current prophet did that. They have never repented of
doing that. Then there was the famous Council of yet Fifth.
This was started by Joseph Smith. Clue it's fifty spelled backwards.

(03:48:52):
Joseph Smith started this. This is the council that crowned
him king. He was crowned King of the United States. Yeah,
isn't that a really clever conundrum there? And he also
called this group the Illuminati and they he believed he
was going to become king of the world.

Speaker 5 (03:49:08):
Ultimately, of course, he was shot first.

Speaker 2 (03:49:12):
Today the Mormon Church, actually in the sixties of the
Mormon Church. I don't know how many of you heard
of W. Cleon Skousen, very famous constitutionalist, patriot, former FBI agent.

Speaker 5 (03:49:22):
He's a Mormon.

Speaker 2 (03:49:23):
I think he's now deceased. But he started the Freeman
Institute in the National Center for Constitutional Studies. These are
inner groups within the Mormon Church, although non Mormons can
certainly join them, that are designed to further the political
agenda of the Mormon Church. Because the Mormon Church believes
the Constitution was inspired. Their agenda is to get a

(03:49:43):
Mormon in the White House. There are many huge numbers
of Mormons in the CIA and the FBI. At one time,
one of four of five of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff were Mormons. Many of the highest level presidential advisors
have been Mormons. Here you see some of the significant
LDS statesman in the US in the last fifty years.

(03:50:06):
Orn Hatch is a very devout Mormon. In fact, if
you know this, you can watch him in committee meetings
on c SPAN. He'll use his priesthood voice. Mormon leaders
actually have a priesthood voice, and if you know what
to listen for, you can hear it's kind of this mellow,
authoritarian kind of voice. They want to get a Mormon

(03:50:27):
in the White House.

Speaker 5 (03:50:28):
What it will happen?

Speaker 2 (03:50:29):
Probably, in fact, they were Mormons were hoping that orn
Hatch would be a vice presidential candidate.

Speaker 5 (03:50:34):
They now don't think that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (03:50:36):
And then they believe God will kill the president, and
then the vice president will become president, and away we go,
and he will become prophet, and he will start a
theocratic kingdom in which the One Mighty and Strong and
that's him, will reign.

Speaker 5 (03:50:53):
Over the whole earth.

Speaker 2 (03:50:55):
He will set up a religious dictatorship in the United
States based on the United Order. And finally, believe it
or not, there's a very strange secret about the Washington Temple.
This is the most extraordinary temple the church ever build,
will cost twenty million in nineteen seventy one dollars. And
what most people don't know is that on the top

(03:51:16):
of that temple there is a dome. Underneath that dome
is a telemetry array that is exactly like what they
have at the White House. On the fifth floor of
that building, where no one is allowed to go except
church leaders, is an exact replica of the Oval Office,
an exact replica, and that is such a powerful communications

(03:51:38):
center that airplanes are routed around it. It's in Bethesda
and Sarli Silver Springs, Maryland, and they believe that someday
they will rain from that Temple, that the President of
the United States will be a Mormon profit, and that
he will rule the world with an iron fist, and
he will be the one mighty and strong, and exactly

(03:51:59):
it's exactly, okay, what's in the Book of Revelations about
the Great Beast. And they have the money to do it.
They are wealthy beyond anybody's wildest dreams. I mean, right now,
the Mormon Church, the last I heard, is worth it makes.
It makes something like fifteen million dollars a day. That's
not counting its vast holdings. It's stock options. It owns

(03:52:21):
many CBS television affiliates. It used to own Safeway, it
owns Bonaville Power International. I mean, so this is something
you need to watch for and take very seriously. But
realize most rank and file Mormons just know about this
in the most general way. But I happen to have
a friend who was a Mormon who was in the
Secret Service, and he actually told me that they have

(03:52:43):
this up on the top floor of that building. So
we need to take the Mormon Church seriously, partly because
they're lost and they need Jesus, and partly because they
have a real agenda for what they would like country.
And though they might look like real nice conservative people,
and most of them are, their agenda will not be

(03:53:03):
anything you will want to be a part of.

Speaker 5 (03:53:06):
So thank you for your attention. God bless.

Speaker 1 (03:53:16):
Amen.

Speaker 4 (03:53:18):
And that is many videotapes that Bill has made. But
you know, we've been hearing about Mormonism. We've been hearing
about all of the wrong ways to do religion. So
let me just in a very brief sort of way,
give you the right way. And that is the big
question we have to ask here today is how do
we get to heaven? So let me just ask you

(03:53:40):
a question, one of the questions I really like to
ask people when I'm witnessing to them and I'm trying
to lead someone to the Lord. As a matter of fact,
I something just popped in my mind. I'll tell you
the incident.

Speaker 1 (03:53:52):
I had.

Speaker 4 (03:53:54):
Volunteered to go out to a prison to be with
these fellows and they were doing in prison ministry. And
so I went into this prison, a little local prison here,
and they said, well, go on in there and sit down.
So I walked into this jail cell and sat down.
I mean, it's pretty scary, you.

Speaker 1 (03:54:14):
Know, And I turned around.

Speaker 4 (03:54:17):
They were gone, and I'm here all by myself. And
a few minutes later they appeared and I.

Speaker 1 (03:54:21):
Said, Hey, where'd you guys go?

Speaker 4 (03:54:23):
And so we went walking down the walk there, inviting
some of the guys in, and so they said, well,
did you get in the Yeah, we got a couple.
There's one guy in there really needs it, but he
wouldn't come. And all of a sudden, this boldness came
over me. Moments earlier, I was afraid to be there,
and all of a sudden this boldness.

Speaker 1 (03:54:42):
So I said, well, let me go talk to him.

Speaker 4 (03:54:44):
So I walked down this walk and I felt pretty
safe because I measured the difference between me and the
wall behind me, and I thought there's no way they
could reach their hand through and get me if I
got up against that wall.

Speaker 1 (03:54:55):
So I was pretty brave behind those bars.

Speaker 4 (03:54:58):
And I walked over there and the fell I had
on orange jumpsuit, he had it tied, the top tied
around his waist, so his top was bare, and he
had tattoos all over him. I mean, he looked like
he just set down off of a Harley Hell's Angels.
Not the good guy, not the Christian motorcycle, but the
Hell's angels guy, and he looked like he would slit

(03:55:19):
your throat and.

Speaker 1 (03:55:20):
Smile about it.

Speaker 4 (03:55:22):
And so I began talking to him, and the Holy
Spirit spoke to me in one of the most clearest ways,
and I made this comment to him in our conversation.
I said, you know, if you don't find true peace,
one day, you're going to find yourself in the middle
of the field with a three fifty seven in your mouth,
pulling the trigger. And I said, if you want to

(03:55:43):
find true peace, you come in and I'll show you
how to find it.

Speaker 1 (03:55:48):
And here's what I showed the man.

Speaker 4 (03:55:50):
First of all, we have to realize that no one
can go to heaven without Jesus, that all of sin
comes short of the glory of God. Rome's three twenty
three says for all of sin to come short of
the glory of God. The next thing is we have
to realize that we cannot earn it. Ephesians two verses
eight and nine say, for it is by grace tho

(03:56:12):
our safe through faith, and that not of yourselves.

Speaker 2 (03:56:15):
It is a gift of God.

Speaker 4 (03:56:17):
Not of works, lest any man should boast. We cannot
do anything to earn our way to heaven. We also
have to understand that we have to do a few
things to get there. So how do we get our
name written into the book of life?

Speaker 2 (03:56:33):
How do we go to heaven?

Speaker 1 (03:56:34):
Romans ten nine and ten gives the answer.

Speaker 4 (03:56:37):
It says, if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the
Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God
has raised them through the dead, thou should be saved.
For with the heart, man believeth in righteousness. But with
the mouth confession is made into salvation. In other words,
it's not enough to say it and not really mean it.

(03:56:57):
And it's not enough to mean it really believe it.

Speaker 1 (03:57:01):
And never say it. We have to actually say it.

Speaker 4 (03:57:06):
Acts two thirty eight says repent, and we baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of your sins, and you should receive the
gift to the Holy Ghost. But what's that word repent?
We don't hear that much in America anymore. So let
me explain repent. Let's say, for example, over here this
side of the podium represents holiness, and let's say over

(03:57:27):
here represents down in the sin. Okay, So where we
actually were when Jesus came along.

Speaker 1 (03:57:34):
We were over here and a lot of us were
enjoying it. Amen, okay, And.

Speaker 4 (03:57:42):
All of a sudden, the Holy Spirit came knocking on
our heart and we started realizing, Hey, there's something wrong
and we needed to get over there the holiness. But
the problem is we can't get over ourselves. We have
to get there through the blood of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (03:57:55):
So what we do is we.

Speaker 4 (03:57:56):
Say, Jesus coming to my heart. He washes us clean.
But that doesn't mean we're over here. Then we have
to say, Holy Spirit, we ask.

Speaker 1 (03:58:03):
You to remove the things from me that are wrong.

Speaker 2 (03:58:07):
And it's a walk. And here's the walk. We take a.

Speaker 4 (03:58:11):
Step, and then we slide a little bit back, and
then we take a step, and then we slide a
little bit back, and then we take it right.

Speaker 1 (03:58:18):
And it's a hard journey.

Speaker 4 (03:58:20):
Be holy, for I'm holy, says, if you love me,
you'll keep my commandments.

Speaker 1 (03:58:25):
In other words, just.

Speaker 4 (03:58:26):
Like Matthew seven twenty one says, not everyone the Crist
Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but
those who do it the will of my Father. What's
the will of the Father? It means that we follow
his laws. We do our best become that good kind
of a Christian that we're supposed to be. We love him,
we try to live a holy life, and it takes

(03:58:49):
a while to get over there, knowing that we.

Speaker 1 (03:58:52):
Can never do it.

Speaker 4 (03:58:53):
It's only by his blood we have to hang onto
his coattails into heaven.

Speaker 1 (03:58:57):
Amen. All right.

Speaker 4 (03:59:00):
You may be a Christian that has made some mistakes
in the past and now you want to clean up
and you want to make certain that your name is
written in.

Speaker 1 (03:59:09):
The Book of Life. You may be someone that has never.

Speaker 2 (03:59:13):
Received Jesus before.

Speaker 4 (03:59:16):
But if you're in ey of the one of those categories.
Matter of fact, I'm going to ask everybody to pray
this prayer with me again. But if you're a Christian
that has made some mistakes and maybe you've fallen back
into the world, you pray it and ask your sins
to be forgiven again.

Speaker 1 (03:59:30):
Matter of fact, I do every day.

Speaker 4 (03:59:33):
I want to make certain the blood is covering every
one of them, sometimes even a couple of times a day.
And if you're a one that's never prayed it before,
you pray it and ask the Lord to come into
your heart. Let's all pray together. Everyone, bow your head
and the one looking around. And even though you said
it before, say it again with me, Dear heavenly Father.

(03:59:54):
I admit I'm a sinner, and I confess with my mouth,
and I believe in my that Jesus say is to Christ,
the son of the Leaving God, died on the cross,
arose three days later, sets at.

Speaker 1 (04:00:10):
The right hand of the Father.

Speaker 4 (04:00:12):
I ask you to come into my life, wash me clean,
write my name in the book of life, keep me.

Speaker 1 (04:00:19):
Holy, and save me the day of trouble in Jesus' name. Amen.

Speaker 4 (04:00:26):
Now, if you were someone that just prayed that prayer
for the very first time, or if you're a Christian
that prayed that prayer asking for your sins to be
forgiven again, just raise your hand. Not an embarrasson probleise,
I'm not an embarrass it.

Speaker 1 (04:00:43):
Okay. If you raise your hand in either group, please
dat and I have one question.

Speaker 4 (04:00:51):
Preach your Lord

Speaker 2 (04:00:53):
And

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