September 14, 2023 • 26 mins
In 2005, Josh begins trying to authenticate the letters.
In 1987, Karen and Ellen struggle with math and jurisdiction; Ellen is upset by a commercial; and Karen tells Mark about her boyfriend.
Mark begins to lose his cool.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
In 1987, Karen and Ellen struggle with math and jurisdiction; Ellen is upset by a commercial; and Karen tells Mark about her boyfriend.
Mark begins to lose his cool.
The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.
Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.
Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell.
This is a Studio BOTH/AND production:
www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
Music by:
- Everything
- Junk City Rejects
- Neon Coast
- Fifteen
- Neon Rider
Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance.All names have been changed to protect the
innocent, the insane, and everyoneelse in between. It was a turn
(00:42):
of the new year. George H. W. Bush had just been elected
president. The TV show Roseanne debuted, Construction of the chunnel connecting England to
France began, and in Oakland,California, two teenage girls were in the
early stages of what would become ayear's long letter writing campaign of terror.
(01:08):
December twenty third, nineteen eighty seven. Dear Mark, I just want you
to know that I think you're right. We should have looked behind the stove
before calling the repairman over. Idon't want Karen to know that I don't
think that you should have to payfor this repair, So please don't tell
her that I didn't tell you that. I don't think she's wrong. I
(01:29):
just want to play dumb on thisone. Ellen. As the old saying
goes, you can almost always provethat something has occurred, but it's nearly
impossible to prove that something hasn't occurred. But as we all hopefully know by
now, just because you can't provethat something didn't happen doesn't necessarily mean that
(01:53):
it did happen. I think wetake for granted how difficult it is to
research anything trivial that occurred in thepre Internet days. When I first started
looking into these letters, my Spacehad only been around for a year,
(02:15):
Newspapers dot com didn't even exist,Smartphones weren't really a thing, so proving
a person existed was hard, letalone proving a whole series of events connected
to that person occurred. And allI really had were four names, three
(02:36):
of which were pretty common, andan address, so that's where I started.
I googled the address of Karen andEllen's cottage and was pleasantly surprised to
find that it actually existed in Oakland, a small cottage, just as a
girl's describe it in their letters.So, feeling slightly more confident, I
(02:58):
googled Mark's name, and sure enough, there was a landlord in the East
Bay with his name, but therewas no way to get a hold of
him. All that really came upwere references to him in various meeting minutes.
But in searching for Karen and Ellen, there were some documents that will
come up later in the letters,which seemed like a very good starting point,
(03:23):
but they originated out of state,and at this point a mere curiosity
wasn't enough for me to pay foran investigative trip up to Oregon, where
the girls grew up, and sofor the first of several times, I
gave up and we resumed the almostmonthly tradition of inviting people, over plying
(03:46):
them with wine, and reading theletters until someone inevitably with their pants.
January twenty first, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark, The toilet here makes
a noise I don't like when Iflush it. It makes a loud,
gurgling sound. My daddy had thesame problem. He had jet toilets put
in in our house and no toiletflushing noise. Good news. General plumbing
(04:11):
around the corner from here has jettoilets in stock. I like you to
put one in here. The whitejet toilets cost one hundred and seventy five
dollars, but I would like onein eggshell. They cost two hundred and
twenty five dollars. Please let meknow when you can do the job,
Yours, Ellen, February fifth,nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark, Marcia,
(04:34):
a former tenant of yours, isa good friend of me. She
tells me that when she used torent her apartment from you on McKinley Street,
you used to take her free firewoodfor free. She says, you
take free firewood to lots of yourtenants. How come I never get any?
Yours, Ellen, February eighth,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Ellen,
(04:58):
it is true that I used togive firewood to Marshall. It is also
true that I still give free firewoodto some of my tenants, those with
fireplaces. Your cottage has no woodstove or fireplace. Sincerely, Mark.
Dear Mark, I know I haven'tgotten a fireplace. If I did have
(05:20):
one, I would have seen itby now. But it's irrelevant. If
you give free firewood to your othertenants, I should get a free share
too, Yours, Ellen, theRuary twenty third, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Mark, when I moved inhere, you refuse to pay for our
phone stuff and cable TV stuff andour cleaning stuff, and I'll let you
(05:42):
get away with all that. Nowyou're refusing to pay for my stove repair,
and I've got to put my feetdown on this one. My boyfriend
says that we should just accept thatthis is the way that tenants always get
exploited by landlords in a capitalist system. But I'm not going along with that.
Everyone knows that a landlord always paysfor stove repair. I thought about
(06:02):
your argument that this wasn't a stoverepair because the stove wasn't broken. But
you're just playing a word game withme. So I'm deducting eighty five dollars
for my next rent anyhow. Karen, April fifth, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Mark, I need an airconditioner. It is very hot in this
(06:23):
house with all the windows closed onhot days. I found a window air
conditioner at Sears for five hundred andtwenty dollars including installation and a service contract,
plus sixty two dollars sales tax.Yours, Karen, April eighth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,I am not buying you an air conditioner.
(06:46):
I suggest that, on the fewhot days we get around here,
that you open your windows. MarkApril eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, Dear
Mark, I keep the window wasclosed because the people who use the car
wash on the corner play their carradios very loudly, and it is too
nosy in here with the windows openwhen people who use the car wash play
(07:09):
their car radios very loudly when theywash their cars. Yours, Karen,
April fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, the car wash is very
noisy. If it is unreasonably loud, you might consider filing a complaint with
the police. They may be ableto pressure the owner to control the noise.
(07:34):
I repeat, I am not buyingyou an air conditioner. Sincerely,
Mark, April twentieth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Mark, I showed your
letter to my grandmother when I visitedher over the weekend in Palm Desert,
where she lives. She has amuch bigger apartment than me, and her
(07:55):
rent is only five hundred and fiftydollars a month. My grandmother says you
were being totally unreasonable. She saysall her friends have an air conditioning and
the landlord always pays for the thing. Yours, Karen, April twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,the climate in the San Francisco Bay
(08:18):
area is quite different from that inDeath Valley, which is near Palm Desert,
where your grandmother lives. I repeat, I am not buying you an
air conditioner. Sincerely, Mark.It was the summer of nineteen eighty eight
(08:46):
Nancy Reagan was using a psychic toschedule her White House events. The average
monthly rent was four hundred twenty dollars. Crack cocaine made its American debut,
and in Oakland, California, twoteenage girls were struggling with jurisdiction. May
(09:09):
tenth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark. Last week a man named How
stop by here. He said heused to live in a chicken coop that
used to be where my cottage isnow. How says he used to pay
you two hundred dollars a month rent. I pay five hundred ninety dollars a
month. I don't think the Berkeleyrent control law allows that much of an
(09:31):
increase, yours, Karen, Mayfifteenth, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark.
I called the Berkeley Rent Control Board, and they say that you can
charge twenty six point four percent plustwenty five dollars more than you were charging
on December first, nineteen eighty Ifigure my rent should be two hundred and
(09:52):
sixteen dollars and ninety cents, whichis twenty six point four percent plus twenty
five dollars more than the two hundreddollar as Hell was paying. That means
you on me a refund of ninethousand, two hundred dollars. According to
my boyfriend, you can neither sendme a check or take it off my
rent if you agree with those numbersyours, Karen. About a year and
(10:16):
a half after I received the letters, life had some changes for me.
I ended up leaving the Bay Areaand heading north to Portland. I moved
with only the essentials, so theKaren and Ellen letters sat in a box
and my parents' garage for a yearwhile I made a life for myself in
Oregon. When my parents finally cameto visit, they brought the majority of
(10:39):
my stuff up with them, andas I sat there going through boxes,
I stumbled upon those old letters.And just a few nights later, the
old tradition continued, only this timein Portland for the whole new circle of
friends laughing at the Karen and Ellenletters. And that's when we realized something
(11:05):
amazing. I was now living inthe girl's hometown. May eighteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Oh, Dear Karen, you don't seem to understand the concept
(11:26):
of jurisdiction. Your house is inOakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Board has
no jurisdiction in Oakland. The factthat you attend college in Berkeley is irrelevant.
The rent you pay is lawful underOakland's rent control law. Mark May
(11:48):
twenty one, nineteen eighty eight,Dear Mark, I would like to get
the weeds in my yard cut downand landscaped, because it's in the shade
a lot. I think ferns wouldbe nice. I know a landscaper,
kiro Yamashita, would will do thejob for you. I'd be willing to
let you deduct the cost of thisfrom the ninety two hundred dollars you owe
(12:09):
me yours. Karen, May twentyfifth, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,
I repeat Berkeley's rent control law isnot enforcible in Oakland. I do
not owe you ninety two hundred dollarsor any other amount, and I will
not pay you for your gardening orlandscaping. I would like to suggest to
(12:33):
you that, since you feel Iam unreasonable and am overcharging you for what
you're renting from me, you considerfinding another place to live with a landlord.
More to your liking. Very sincerely, Mark, June third, nineteen
eighty eight. Dear Mark, Iwas really hurt by your last letter.
(12:56):
You shouldn't take your owing me theninety two hundred dollars personally. I know
the house is in Oakland, butyou advertised it at the University student housing
office, which is in Berkeley.My boyfriend, who is thinking of going
to law school, says that meansjurisdiction is irreverent. Yours, Karen,
June sixth, nineteen eighty eight,Dear Mark, I saw a commercial for
(13:20):
a movie yesterday who framed Roger RabbitReally worried about it. You see,
it's all about a rabbit named RogerRabbit. Roger Rabbit is married. His
wife is named Jessica Rabbit. Butshe's not a rabbit. She's a person,
you know, a real person,even though she's only a cartoon.
(13:41):
Well, why is her last namerabbit? In cartoons, the last name
of the thing is supposed to tellyou what kind of thing the thing is,
you know, like Mickey Mouse,Donald Duck, bugs Bunny. Well,
if they can call a person JessicaRabbit, maybe they'll do the same
thing with other cartoons like the nextthing you know, Mickey Mouse could be
(14:05):
called Mickey Rabbit even though he's stilla mouse. Kids would be all confused,
and so am I. I thinkthis is serious. Ellen, June
sixth, nineteen eighty eight. DearCarib, I do not owe you any
money. Your house is in Oakland, not in Berkeley. You do not
(14:30):
get a pick which city's rent controllaw you liked. If you file a
petition with the Berkeley Rent Control Board, you will lose your case, but
still cause me the inconvenience of havingto attend a hearing and hiring a lawyer.
If you put me through this expenseand inconvenience, I warn you I
(14:54):
will evict you. This is nojoke. Very sincerely, Mark, June
tenth, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, I don't want to leave my
house, but i'll go if youinsist, after you send me the ninety
two hundred dollars you owe me.My boyfriend is going to visit the Berkeley
(15:15):
Rent Control Board this week. Idon't want to spoil our relationship, but
I can really use the ninety twohundred dollars. Yours, Karen, June
twelfth, nineteen eighty eight, DearKaren, as I have already told you,
it doesn't matter where I live,where you go to school, or
(15:37):
where you pay your rent. Yourhouse is not in Berkeley, not in
Oakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Boardhas no jurisdiction in Oakland, which is
a separate incorporated city. While Idon't want you to go to the Berkeley
Rent Control Board, since you alreadyintend to go there anyway, ask them
(15:58):
about restiction, and perhaps ask yourlawyer too. Mark June fourteenth, nineteen
eighty eight, dear Mark, Accordingto Karen's boyfriend Rob, your jurisdiction argument
is inethical. I don't know alot about jurisdiction, but I think it's
(16:19):
overlooking the real issue. If differentplaces have different rules for different things,
it seems unfair. Like if Ilive in one place with different rules for
different things, then I moved toa different place, I don't know what
the rules are in that new place. It just seems confusing for everyone.
Rob says jurisdiction is a capitalist loophole. Sometimes I think I agree with Rob,
(16:45):
and sometimes I think I don't.What do you think, yours?
Ellen, June fifteenth, nineteen eightyeight, Dear Mark, it's obvious to
me that you are taking the ninetytwo hundred dollars you owe me personally,
even if you don't. Since Iwouldn't want our friendship to be spoiled by
this, I'm willing to settle thismatter by splitting the amount of half.
(17:06):
If you'll send me forty two hundreddollars, I'll let the other forty two
hundred dollars go. The Berkeley RentControl Board told me that your jurisdiction argument
is yours. Karen June seventeenth,nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen, I
do not owe you ninety two hundreddollars or any other amount. My last
(17:30):
letter was no joke. If youfile a petition with a Berkeley Rent Control
Board for a rent rebate on yourhouse, which is in Oakland, I
will send you a thirty day evictionnotice within twenty four hours. Think it
over. You need legal advice,and I don't mean from your boyfriend who
(17:56):
is quote thinking of going to lawschool. End quote. Very sincerely,
Mark, June nineteenth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Mark, my boyfriend may
not be a lawyer, but he'sgot an application for law school at the
tough University in Boston, and hesays he can get in if he wants
(18:18):
to go there. He's smart.Well, he went to the Berkeley rent
Control Board two days ago, butthe person he spoke to didn't know anything
about jurisdiction. But she would asksomeone else at her office and call us
back. So we will see who'sright. Yours, Karen, June twenty
third, nineteen eighty eight. DearKaren, I've been reluctant to say anything
(18:47):
critical about your boyfriend up until now, but I must say something about him
that you will not want to hear. You have mentioned in your phone calls
to me and now in your lastletter that you think your boyfriend is smart
and a reliable source on legal advicebecause he's quote thinking of applying to the
(19:11):
tough law school in Boston, andyou believe he will be able to get
into this tough law school easily.The school your boyfriend is referring to is
not quote the tough university, butToughts University, which is in Boston.
(19:37):
The name of the school has nothingto do with toughness, although Tofts does
have a good reputation. Besides quotethinking about applying to law school, no
matter how good or tough the schoolmay be, does not qualify a person
to give leekl advice. I adviseyou again to see a real lawyer of
(20:03):
your own. Mark June twenty third, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Albert,
would you do me a favor sendme a one page letter on your university
stationary simply stating something like a city'srent control law is not enforceable beyond a
(20:30):
city's jurisdiction. I think Karen wouldbe impressed by such a letter from a
professor of law from Boston, eventhough you didn't teach at the tough university.
Thanks Mark, June twenty six,nineteen eighty eight. Mark, you're
(20:53):
right. My boyfriend says he's planningto go to Tufts. I must have
hurt him wrong, but he saysTufts is pretty tough anyway. He went
to the Berkeley rent Control Board.They said they would have to look over
my letters and yours and get backto me. The woman he spoke to
says, I may have a case. Unless I don't. It will take
(21:14):
them a few weeks to make uptheir minds. I'll get back to you
on this when they get back tome on this yours, Karen. At
this point in our initial reading ofthe letters, we were howling with laughter
over the stupidity of these two teenagegirls and the frustration and sass of their
landlord, who was well into hisfifties. In Portland, I was going
(21:41):
through microfiche at the local library,trying to prove that something had occurred,
something that would have certainly made thelocal newspapers, something that would prove that
Karen and Ellen actually existed. Atthat point, though there was no real
(22:03):
reason behind nor end game two mysearch, I just needed to know that
these letters were real, and neededto know that these people existed. In
the most cynical sense you could say, I was looking for proof that the
idiocy chronicled in these letters was real, that we were laughing at real people.
(22:27):
In the most heartfelt sense, theseletters and Karen and Ellen had become
a part of my life, apart of my friends lives, something that
brought people together and then was passedon. Each time we sat down to
read these letters, there were newfaces eager to hear from Karen and Ellen
(22:49):
and Mark. These letters had createda small and strange community, and so
while yes, I wanted proof thatthese idiots were real. For some reason,
it also felt like the community wasn'tas strong, or valuable or true
if the letters themselves weren't true,which says a lot about the ways in
(23:15):
which we see and exist in theworld. The Karen and Ellen Letters are
found Correspondents narrated by me Josh Hallmarkand voiced by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah Kitcher,
(23:41):
and Jeff Powell. This episode wasmade possible by the following Patreon producers.
Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette l Benjamin
Choppa, Thong Casey, Jensen Richardson, Dana Keith, Doctor Jill Cooper,
Drew Vipond, Hallie Read, JessicaAlihozik, Jillian Notale, John O'Leary,
Kendall, c Kimberly k Lauren fLinley, tuscoff Manolas Bullacus, Megan cap
(24:04):
Seewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole andDennis Henry, Sarah King, sc Shannon
Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignattowitz, Warren, Beth McNally,
John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, CarleyMcNutt Laana Sarah Ce and Lydia Fiedler.
If you'd like to support the show, go to Patreon, dot com,
slash Studio both and This episode featuredmusic by Infinite Memories, Neon Coast,
(24:32):
Neon Ryder, Galactic Realms, Theap X, and Everything Hi Hi
(25:49):
Hi Hi Hid
This is a studio both and productionwarning. Listening to this podcast may cause
on mitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance.All names have been changed to protect the
innocent, the insane, and everyoneelse in between. It was a turn
(00:42):
of the new year. George H. W. Bush had just been elected
president. The TV show Roseanne debuted, Construction of the chunnel connecting England to
France began, and in Oakland,California, two teenage girls were in the
early stages of what would become ayear's long letter writing campaign of terror.
(01:08):
December twenty third, nineteen eighty seven. Dear Mark, I just want you
to know that I think you're right. We should have looked behind the stove
before calling the repairman over. Idon't want Karen to know that I don't
think that you should have to payfor this repair, So please don't tell
her that I didn't tell you that. I don't think she's wrong. I
(01:29):
just want to play dumb on thisone. Ellen. As the old saying
goes, you can almost always provethat something has occurred, but it's nearly
impossible to prove that something hasn't occurred. But as we all hopefully know by
now, just because you can't provethat something didn't happen doesn't necessarily mean that
(01:53):
it did happen. I think wetake for granted how difficult it is to
research anything trivial that occurred in thepre Internet days. When I first started
looking into these letters, my Spacehad only been around for a year,
(02:15):
Newspapers dot com didn't even exist,Smartphones weren't really a thing, so proving
a person existed was hard, letalone proving a whole series of events connected
to that person occurred. And allI really had were four names, three
(02:36):
of which were pretty common, andan address, so that's where I started.
I googled the address of Karen andEllen's cottage and was pleasantly surprised to
find that it actually existed in Oakland, a small cottage, just as a
girl's describe it in their letters.So, feeling slightly more confident, I
(02:58):
googled Mark's name, and sure enough, there was a landlord in the East
Bay with his name, but therewas no way to get a hold of
him. All that really came upwere references to him in various meeting minutes.
But in searching for Karen and Ellen, there were some documents that will
come up later in the letters,which seemed like a very good starting point,
(03:23):
but they originated out of state,and at this point a mere curiosity
wasn't enough for me to pay foran investigative trip up to Oregon, where
the girls grew up, and sofor the first of several times, I
gave up and we resumed the almostmonthly tradition of inviting people, over plying
(03:46):
them with wine, and reading theletters until someone inevitably with their pants.
January twenty first, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark, The toilet here makes
a noise I don't like when Iflush it. It makes a loud,
gurgling sound. My daddy had thesame problem. He had jet toilets put
in in our house and no toiletflushing noise. Good news. General plumbing
(04:11):
around the corner from here has jettoilets in stock. I like you to
put one in here. The whitejet toilets cost one hundred and seventy five
dollars, but I would like onein eggshell. They cost two hundred and
twenty five dollars. Please let meknow when you can do the job,
Yours, Ellen, February fifth,nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark, Marcia,
(04:34):
a former tenant of yours, isa good friend of me. She
tells me that when she used torent her apartment from you on McKinley Street,
you used to take her free firewoodfor free. She says, you
take free firewood to lots of yourtenants. How come I never get any?
Yours, Ellen, February eighth,nineteen eighty eight, Dear Ellen,
(04:58):
it is true that I used togive firewood to Marshall. It is also
true that I still give free firewoodto some of my tenants, those with
fireplaces. Your cottage has no woodstove or fireplace. Sincerely, Mark.
Dear Mark, I know I haven'tgotten a fireplace. If I did have
(05:20):
one, I would have seen itby now. But it's irrelevant. If
you give free firewood to your othertenants, I should get a free share
too, Yours, Ellen, theRuary twenty third, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Mark, when I moved inhere, you refuse to pay for our
phone stuff and cable TV stuff andour cleaning stuff, and I'll let you
(05:42):
get away with all that. Nowyou're refusing to pay for my stove repair,
and I've got to put my feetdown on this one. My boyfriend
says that we should just accept thatthis is the way that tenants always get
exploited by landlords in a capitalist system. But I'm not going along with that.
Everyone knows that a landlord always paysfor stove repair. I thought about
(06:02):
your argument that this wasn't a stoverepair because the stove wasn't broken. But
you're just playing a word game withme. So I'm deducting eighty five dollars
for my next rent anyhow. Karen, April fifth, nineteen eighty eight,
Dear Mark, I need an airconditioner. It is very hot in this
(06:23):
house with all the windows closed onhot days. I found a window air
conditioner at Sears for five hundred andtwenty dollars including installation and a service contract,
plus sixty two dollars sales tax.Yours, Karen, April eighth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,I am not buying you an air conditioner.
(06:46):
I suggest that, on the fewhot days we get around here,
that you open your windows. MarkApril eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, Dear
Mark, I keep the window wasclosed because the people who use the car
wash on the corner play their carradios very loudly, and it is too
nosy in here with the windows openwhen people who use the car wash play
(07:09):
their car radios very loudly when theywash their cars. Yours, Karen,
April fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight.Dear Karen, the car wash is very
noisy. If it is unreasonably loud, you might consider filing a complaint with
the police. They may be ableto pressure the owner to control the noise.
(07:34):
I repeat, I am not buyingyou an air conditioner. Sincerely,
Mark, April twentieth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Mark, I showed your
letter to my grandmother when I visitedher over the weekend in Palm Desert,
where she lives. She has amuch bigger apartment than me, and her
(07:55):
rent is only five hundred and fiftydollars a month. My grandmother says you
were being totally unreasonable. She saysall her friends have an air conditioning and
the landlord always pays for the thing. Yours, Karen, April twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,the climate in the San Francisco Bay
(08:18):
area is quite different from that inDeath Valley, which is near Palm Desert,
where your grandmother lives. I repeat, I am not buying you an
air conditioner. Sincerely, Mark.It was the summer of nineteen eighty eight
(08:46):
Nancy Reagan was using a psychic toschedule her White House events. The average
monthly rent was four hundred twenty dollars. Crack cocaine made its American debut,
and in Oakland, California, twoteenage girls were struggling with jurisdiction. May
(09:09):
tenth, nineteen eighty eight, DearMark. Last week a man named How
stop by here. He said heused to live in a chicken coop that
used to be where my cottage isnow. How says he used to pay
you two hundred dollars a month rent. I pay five hundred ninety dollars a
month. I don't think the Berkeleyrent control law allows that much of an
(09:31):
increase, yours, Karen, Mayfifteenth, nineteen eighty eight, dear Mark.
I called the Berkeley Rent Control Board, and they say that you can
charge twenty six point four percent plustwenty five dollars more than you were charging
on December first, nineteen eighty Ifigure my rent should be two hundred and
(09:52):
sixteen dollars and ninety cents, whichis twenty six point four percent plus twenty
five dollars more than the two hundreddollar as Hell was paying. That means
you on me a refund of ninethousand, two hundred dollars. According to
my boyfriend, you can neither sendme a check or take it off my
rent if you agree with those numbersyours, Karen. About a year and
(10:16):
a half after I received the letters, life had some changes for me.
I ended up leaving the Bay Areaand heading north to Portland. I moved
with only the essentials, so theKaren and Ellen letters sat in a box
and my parents' garage for a yearwhile I made a life for myself in
Oregon. When my parents finally cameto visit, they brought the majority of
(10:39):
my stuff up with them, andas I sat there going through boxes,
I stumbled upon those old letters.And just a few nights later, the
old tradition continued, only this timein Portland for the whole new circle of
friends laughing at the Karen and Ellenletters. And that's when we realized something
(11:05):
amazing. I was now living inthe girl's hometown. May eighteenth, nineteen
eighty eight. Oh, Dear Karen, you don't seem to understand the concept
(11:26):
of jurisdiction. Your house is inOakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Board has
no jurisdiction in Oakland. The factthat you attend college in Berkeley is irrelevant.
The rent you pay is lawful underOakland's rent control law. Mark May
(11:48):
twenty one, nineteen eighty eight,Dear Mark, I would like to get
the weeds in my yard cut downand landscaped, because it's in the shade
a lot. I think ferns wouldbe nice. I know a landscaper,
kiro Yamashita, would will do thejob for you. I'd be willing to
let you deduct the cost of thisfrom the ninety two hundred dollars you owe
(12:09):
me yours. Karen, May twentyfifth, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen,
I repeat Berkeley's rent control law isnot enforcible in Oakland. I do
not owe you ninety two hundred dollarsor any other amount, and I will
not pay you for your gardening orlandscaping. I would like to suggest to
(12:33):
you that, since you feel Iam unreasonable and am overcharging you for what
you're renting from me, you considerfinding another place to live with a landlord.
More to your liking. Very sincerely, Mark, June third, nineteen
eighty eight. Dear Mark, Iwas really hurt by your last letter.
(12:56):
You shouldn't take your owing me theninety two hundred dollars personally. I know
the house is in Oakland, butyou advertised it at the University student housing
office, which is in Berkeley.My boyfriend, who is thinking of going
to law school, says that meansjurisdiction is irreverent. Yours, Karen,
June sixth, nineteen eighty eight,Dear Mark, I saw a commercial for
(13:20):
a movie yesterday who framed Roger RabbitReally worried about it. You see,
it's all about a rabbit named RogerRabbit. Roger Rabbit is married. His
wife is named Jessica Rabbit. Butshe's not a rabbit. She's a person,
you know, a real person,even though she's only a cartoon.
(13:41):
Well, why is her last namerabbit? In cartoons, the last name
of the thing is supposed to tellyou what kind of thing the thing is,
you know, like Mickey Mouse,Donald Duck, bugs Bunny. Well,
if they can call a person JessicaRabbit, maybe they'll do the same
thing with other cartoons like the nextthing you know, Mickey Mouse could be
(14:05):
called Mickey Rabbit even though he's stilla mouse. Kids would be all confused,
and so am I. I thinkthis is serious. Ellen, June
sixth, nineteen eighty eight. DearCarib, I do not owe you any
money. Your house is in Oakland, not in Berkeley. You do not
(14:30):
get a pick which city's rent controllaw you liked. If you file a
petition with the Berkeley Rent Control Board, you will lose your case, but
still cause me the inconvenience of havingto attend a hearing and hiring a lawyer.
If you put me through this expenseand inconvenience, I warn you I
(14:54):
will evict you. This is nojoke. Very sincerely, Mark, June
tenth, nineteen eighty eight. DearMark, I don't want to leave my
house, but i'll go if youinsist, after you send me the ninety
two hundred dollars you owe me.My boyfriend is going to visit the Berkeley
(15:15):
Rent Control Board this week. Idon't want to spoil our relationship, but
I can really use the ninety twohundred dollars. Yours, Karen, June
twelfth, nineteen eighty eight, DearKaren, as I have already told you,
it doesn't matter where I live,where you go to school, or
(15:37):
where you pay your rent. Yourhouse is not in Berkeley, not in
Oakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Boardhas no jurisdiction in Oakland, which is
a separate incorporated city. While Idon't want you to go to the Berkeley
Rent Control Board, since you alreadyintend to go there anyway, ask them
(15:58):
about restiction, and perhaps ask yourlawyer too. Mark June fourteenth, nineteen
eighty eight, dear Mark, Accordingto Karen's boyfriend Rob, your jurisdiction argument
is inethical. I don't know alot about jurisdiction, but I think it's
(16:19):
overlooking the real issue. If differentplaces have different rules for different things,
it seems unfair. Like if Ilive in one place with different rules for
different things, then I moved toa different place, I don't know what
the rules are in that new place. It just seems confusing for everyone.
Rob says jurisdiction is a capitalist loophole. Sometimes I think I agree with Rob,
(16:45):
and sometimes I think I don't.What do you think, yours?
Ellen, June fifteenth, nineteen eightyeight, Dear Mark, it's obvious to
me that you are taking the ninetytwo hundred dollars you owe me personally,
even if you don't. Since Iwouldn't want our friendship to be spoiled by
this, I'm willing to settle thismatter by splitting the amount of half.
(17:06):
If you'll send me forty two hundreddollars, I'll let the other forty two
hundred dollars go. The Berkeley RentControl Board told me that your jurisdiction argument
is yours. Karen June seventeenth,nineteen eighty eight. Dear Karen, I
do not owe you ninety two hundreddollars or any other amount. My last
(17:30):
letter was no joke. If youfile a petition with a Berkeley Rent Control
Board for a rent rebate on yourhouse, which is in Oakland, I
will send you a thirty day evictionnotice within twenty four hours. Think it
over. You need legal advice,and I don't mean from your boyfriend who
(17:56):
is quote thinking of going to lawschool. End quote. Very sincerely,
Mark, June nineteenth, nineteen eightyeight. Dear Mark, my boyfriend may
not be a lawyer, but he'sgot an application for law school at the
tough University in Boston, and hesays he can get in if he wants
(18:18):
to go there. He's smart.Well, he went to the Berkeley rent
Control Board two days ago, butthe person he spoke to didn't know anything
about jurisdiction. But she would asksomeone else at her office and call us
back. So we will see who'sright. Yours, Karen, June twenty
third, nineteen eighty eight. DearKaren, I've been reluctant to say anything
(18:47):
critical about your boyfriend up until now, but I must say something about him
that you will not want to hear. You have mentioned in your phone calls
to me and now in your lastletter that you think your boyfriend is smart
and a reliable source on legal advicebecause he's quote thinking of applying to the
(19:11):
tough law school in Boston, andyou believe he will be able to get
into this tough law school easily.The school your boyfriend is referring to is
not quote the tough university, butToughts University, which is in Boston.
(19:37):
The name of the school has nothingto do with toughness, although Tofts does
have a good reputation. Besides quotethinking about applying to law school, no
matter how good or tough the schoolmay be, does not qualify a person
to give leekl advice. I adviseyou again to see a real lawyer of
(20:03):
your own. Mark June twenty third, nineteen eighty eight. Dear Albert,
would you do me a favor sendme a one page letter on your university
stationary simply stating something like a city'srent control law is not enforceable beyond a
(20:30):
city's jurisdiction. I think Karen wouldbe impressed by such a letter from a
professor of law from Boston, eventhough you didn't teach at the tough university.
Thanks Mark, June twenty six,nineteen eighty eight. Mark, you're
(20:53):
right. My boyfriend says he's planningto go to Tufts. I must have
hurt him wrong, but he saysTufts is pretty tough anyway. He went
to the Berkeley rent Control Board.They said they would have to look over
my letters and yours and get backto me. The woman he spoke to
says, I may have a case. Unless I don't. It will take
(21:14):
them a few weeks to make uptheir minds. I'll get back to you
on this when they get back tome on this yours, Karen. At
this point in our initial reading ofthe letters, we were howling with laughter
over the stupidity of these two teenagegirls and the frustration and sass of their
landlord, who was well into hisfifties. In Portland, I was going
(21:41):
through microfiche at the local library,trying to prove that something had occurred,
something that would have certainly made thelocal newspapers, something that would prove that
Karen and Ellen actually existed. Atthat point, though there was no real
(22:03):
reason behind nor end game two mysearch, I just needed to know that
these letters were real, and neededto know that these people existed. In
the most cynical sense you could say, I was looking for proof that the
idiocy chronicled in these letters was real, that we were laughing at real people.
(22:27):
In the most heartfelt sense, theseletters and Karen and Ellen had become
a part of my life, apart of my friends lives, something that
brought people together and then was passedon. Each time we sat down to
read these letters, there were newfaces eager to hear from Karen and Ellen
(22:49):
and Mark. These letters had createda small and strange community, and so
while yes, I wanted proof thatthese idiots were real. For some reason,
it also felt like the community wasn'tas strong, or valuable or true
if the letters themselves weren't true,which says a lot about the ways in
(23:15):
which we see and exist in theworld. The Karen and Ellen Letters are
found Correspondents narrated by me Josh Hallmarkand voiced by Sarah Stapleton, Sarah Kitcher,
(23:41):
and Jeff Powell. This episode wasmade possible by the following Patreon producers.
Adrian A. Yellow, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette l Benjamin
Choppa, Thong Casey, Jensen Richardson, Dana Keith, Doctor Jill Cooper,
Drew Vipond, Hallie Read, JessicaAlihozik, Jillian Notale, John O'Leary,
Kendall, c Kimberly k Lauren fLinley, tuscoff Manolas Bullacus, Megan cap
(24:04):
Seewell, Mike Sherman, Nicole andDennis Henry, Sarah King, sc Shannon
Foster, Shelley Brewer, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignattowitz, Warren, Beth McNally,
John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, CarleyMcNutt Laana Sarah Ce and Lydia Fiedler.
If you'd like to support the show, go to Patreon, dot com,
slash Studio both and This episode featuredmusic by Infinite Memories, Neon Coast,
(24:32):
Neon Ryder, Galactic Realms, Theap X, and Everything Hi Hi
(25:49):
Hi Hi Hid
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