June 10, 2019 • 50 mins
Child sex trafficking is a billion dollar business. The only other illegal activity that earns more is illegal drug sales. Every year children are taken and forced into having sex with adults for money. Even surprising is that some of the men who have been caught engaging in sex with these minors are policemen, judges, doctors, and even fireman. Social class and financial status are irrelevant when it comes to child trafficking. For all you know, a family member or friend could be involved. It's a crime that usually stays in the darkness until it's forced into the light.
In this week's episode, I spoke to "Jane," a woman who was trafficked by her own mother from the age of 3 until she was 17. Her mother used to bring men to their home and allow them to rape her daughter for money, food, jewelry, or money to pay bills. Oddly enough, Jane always loved her mother and uses her faith in God to cope with her painful childhood memories.
To read my columns, please visit www.Clermontsun.com or my website at www.themarcabe.com. You can also find me on Facebook and Twitter, and if you are interested in sponsoring my podcast and column, please click on this link: http://www.themarcabe.com/donations.html
In this week's episode, I spoke to "Jane," a woman who was trafficked by her own mother from the age of 3 until she was 17. Her mother used to bring men to their home and allow them to rape her daughter for money, food, jewelry, or money to pay bills. Oddly enough, Jane always loved her mother and uses her faith in God to cope with her painful childhood memories.
To read my columns, please visit www.Clermontsun.com or my website at www.themarcabe.com. You can also find me on Facebook and Twitter, and if you are interested in sponsoring my podcast and column, please click on this link: http://www.themarcabe.com/donations.html
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Americans care a lot about money.We talk about jobs and taxes and paychecks.
But here's what we don't talk about. Right here in the United States,
there is a thriving underground economy basedon selling children for sex. If
sex sells, then business is good. Look at all the money. It
(00:21):
was almost a billion dollars in thisstudy. But these dirty profits come at
a huge cost. This is howsex traffickers do business. It's about supply
and demand. First, they needsomeone to sell. Traffickers target children in
their own homes. They find themby combing through social media profiles looking to
(00:44):
sparker conversation. The trafficker targets preteensand teens by finding an end, something
to bond over and earn their trust. That could be the promise of a
modeling career. They might buy themdrugs or alcohol, or provide protection from
an already dangerous situation at home.Traffickers gain psychological control and use violent threats
(01:07):
to force victims to say. Oncethe child is isolated from family and friends,
the trafficker puts them up for sale. This is where the demand comes
in. Traffickers use internet sites toconnect with buyers or john's but calling them.
John's is too polite. They areabusers. They are purchasing kids for
(01:30):
sex. So who are these buyers? Court record show they've been teachers,
pastors, cops and judges. Theycould be the guy next door. The
trafficker gets the money, the buyergets sex. The child victim gets exploited
and sold. So how is thisdifferent from prostitution, pornography or other sexual
(01:53):
acts. These victims are miners.Legally, they cannot consent. This isn't
the movies. It's not like PrettyWoman or Taken. Richard gear is not
the buyer. Liam Neeson isn't thereto save the day. This is sexual
exploitation. This is trafficking. Thisis modern day slavery. It's selling girls.
(02:49):
This is Mark. I'm a formercontributor for the Huffington Post and currently
write a weekly column for the Claremont'sSign in Ohio newspaper that is nearly two
hundred years old. This is thepodcast that covers stories about strange events and
crimes committed by evil men and women. Although most people think that slavery is
something from the past, this isn'tentirely true. It still goes on today.
(03:14):
But instead of calling it slavery.We call it human trafficking. It's
an evil business that generates billions ofdollars in profits globally. In many cases,
people are forced into performing manual labor, or they might even be trafficked
for their organs. In this episode, I want to focus more on sex
trafficking, which is forcing people intoperforming sexual acts for profit. Although this
(03:38):
is a worldwide problem, it's alsobig business in America. Traffickers use violence,
threats, deception, and other tacticsto force people into commercial sex.
Here are a few statistics. TheInternational Labor Organization estimates that forced labor in
human trafficking is a one hundred andfifty billion dollar industry worldwide in twenty seventeen,
(04:03):
and estimated one out of seven endangeredrunaways reported to the National Center for
Missing and Exploited Children were likely childsex trafficking victims. Of those, eighty
eight percent were in the care ofsocial services or foster care when they ran
away. Although I find sex traffickingto be the lowest form of evil,
(04:25):
I find the worst cases are whenparents traffic their own children for financial gain.
As a parent, our duty isto protect our children. We're supposed
to love them and teach them tobecome productive citizens. Unfortunately, there were
parents in America who will gladly allowmen to sexually abuse their children for financial
(04:46):
gain. And two eighteen, aGeorgia man named Richard Office received life in
prison without the possibility of parole plusone hundred and forty six years. The
seventy eight year old man was convictedof rape, trafficking person for sexual servitude,
two counts of child molestation, andthree counts of enticing a child for
indecent purposes. Office had purchased sexualservices for the two girls from their own
(05:11):
mother. The twenty five year oldunnamed mother had sold her two daughters,
ages five and six, to Officefor money. She received a thirty year
prison sentence. The DA said thatin twenty seventeen, Richard Office, whom
the girls knew is pop, touchedthem and kissed them inappropriately in the bedroom
of his home while their mother waitedin the living room. After molesting them,
(05:31):
Office reportedly gave the girls one hundreddollars and their mother took the money.
The DA said the younger of thetwo girls was injured in the assault.
A second man, Alfred Treo,was convicted in Fulton County for raping
the girls in the same manner.He received twenty five years in prison,
followed by life on probation. Thisstory proves that evil truly exists. In
(05:58):
this week's episode, I interviewed womanI will call Jane. She experienced the
same horror as the two young girlsI just mentioned from the time Jane was
three ncel she was seventeen. Shewas trafficked for sex by her own mother,
who brought deviant men into the familyhome and allowed them to have sex
with Jane. In return for sexwith her, these deviants pay Jane's mother
(06:18):
with cash, food, or theypaid her rent or bills. Yes,
evil is real and the monsters areout there. I wanted to put a
quick warning out there. Some ofthe people may find this episode highly disturbing,
and if you think that you mightbe one of those people, you
may want to go ahead and turnthis off because sex trafficking is really disturbing.
(06:44):
It's evil and it is real.So I wanted to go ahead and
give you that disclaimer before listening.Otherwise, on with the show. I'm
going to go ahead and start byjust saying that you were in a situation
where you were sexually trafficked as achild. So I just want to ask
you questions from as a victim.Is how you feel and what happened and
(07:10):
what type of experience? What didit lead to and how has it affected
you today? So if you wantto just go ahead and just start from
the beginning and just tell me whathappened, Okay, Well, really it's
all I ever knew. How It'sjust how I grew up. That my
mama had a lot of different men, and there was those different men coming
(07:32):
in and then of the house allthe time. You didn't know any of
them though, right, right,Well, some of them, some of
them my name, and some ofthem didn't know because some of them would
come more than one time. No, it was your mom that would bring
these men over. Correct, right, She would get all like, she
would get all dressed, stuff,she put makeup on, and she put
(07:56):
on a long budwick and these clothand high heels, and she would leave.
And then when she come home,she did sometimes bring a man home,
or a lot of times will shewould leave with the men. And
when men would come into the house, well she was gone that she had
(08:16):
already sent some men to the house. But it was like that. Apparently
these men they knew what they weredoing, they were going to do before
they came over, and had alreadyworked something out with your mother that So
were they there to just to molestyou? Is that is that what it
was? I can't so. Imean they were there, and I noticed
(08:37):
every time they were there, that'swhat would happen. Some of the men
would bring food. They bring food. Yeah, what was the purpose of
that? I guess just to bringus something to eat? Are you saying
that in exchange for what they coulddo? They would buy you food?
So it wasn't like they were necessarilyjust giving money. They were trading food
(08:58):
for well I think, yeah,it wasn't always this money. It would
be food like pay bills. Theywould paying my momas sills or a buyer
thing. It just depended on Iguess whatever they wanted to do. And
how old were you when this startedhappening at this time? I can really
really remember it as that back threeor four or four. I mean,
(09:22):
you can remember that long ago.I guess it was that traumatic. Yeah,
I can was that long ago.You'd be surprised at what she can
remember her. You have to understandit's it's for me, it's hard to
fathom. I mean, I've readso much and as my former career in
social services I've dealt with I workwith children who had been ranked and molested.
(09:43):
I've always had a hard time atunderstanding it. And I guess it's
just something that I never will understandor be able to comprehend because to me,
I find it to be so eviland it used to really bother me
when it was my career. Sojust kind of listening to somebody just really
tell me how just confirming to mejust how evil people are. It's just
(10:03):
really difficult to understand. What wouldthey do? They come over and yes,
well, I mean what would theydo to you? You mean details?
Well, they would like pull outthe catch and set a chair behind
the cot, and then they wouldmake me get on money and do things.
And like they put me in thebathtub and it would be really hot
(10:26):
water. They put me in thetest and just two different things. You
don't have to really go into detail. I mean, just yeah, that's
fine. I mean it sounds likeit's uncomfortable, let's understand. So they
would just do these things. Andyour mom, I mean, where would
she so sometimes you said she wouldbe there, and sometimes she would leave
right Usually she would please that.A lot of times she was there too
(10:50):
at the house. And it ain'tthat she didn't know what was going on,
because she didn't know what was goingon. Now you haven't You said
you have sibling too, right,right, I'm the youngest and I've got
one of My mama had twelve babiesthat two of them died at bus so
she had tend I'm thinking he's thirteenor thirteen years older than me. Were
(11:15):
your siblings all there? The ten? Were they there? They must have
been there then, right, Yeah, they were there, But like my
oldest brother, I think he leftand run into the army when I was
two, so I barely remember muchabout him. And I had, yeah,
and one of my sisters was injuvenile one of them will welcome.
Some of them had quit school,guy's job, and then some of them
(11:37):
were you know, built like kidsin the hand. They also get molested
or was it just you no,for whatever reason, and your mother just
just was okay with it. Mymama was She would get really mean and
really mad, and who I wasjust really scared of her. She was
(11:58):
like for no reason. I rememberher having this strap that had these metal
poles in it, and I canjust remember her going crazy and just taking
that strap and just hitting everybody.But I always ran underneath the table on
hit so she couldn't get me.Was this if you didn't cooperate? Is
that? Did she? Is thatwhat she would do? If you didn't
(12:18):
co operate, She would go onover rage. She would going to a
rage like that, like if webroke something, or if yeah, if
if you steal something, or ifyou broke something or yeah, just something
like that. She always she alwaystold me, She always told us that
if we ever told anybody that shewas off her teeth down the soot.
(12:41):
Well, she's the only adult there. I mean your dad, But your
dad wasn't in the picture. Didyou have grandparents or uncle's or ants or
anything. No, my grandparents,but my most parents had already passed before
I was born. My father,I don't know about him or his family.
So yeah, she was still theonly adult other than the man that
(13:03):
would be around. How long didthis go on for? Well, men
were coming over and doing whatever itwas they were doing. Yes, how
how many years? I mean,you said, you can remember back to
when you were three. When didit end? Howl of confusing that like
that, Paul of it ended whenshe married this other man and she got
married and she got married. Yeah, she got married to this man when
(13:26):
I was nine. And it wasn'tlike it had stopped altogether, because there
were still like some of them peoplewere show around. You had a stepdad
at nine, and your stepdad allowedthis to go on. It didn't go
on like that, I mean,so it was just like, oh yeah,
(13:48):
when on my bed, I justnan. It wasn't like men were
coming and going anymore. It wasmore like like some of them people,
some of them men from that time, they they were showing then they would
still come on name and they wouldstill do whatever they wanted to do.
And your stepdad wouldn't saying anything.No, no, did he do anything.
(14:11):
He was a very name, veryname. Oh wow, So he
didn't even try to protect you.Then you felt it nice could ask.
So you had your mom, astepdad, and you had all these siblings
in your house, all these peoplein this house, right, and nobody
said anything. Nobody tried to helpyou. Absolutely not. Now, my
(14:33):
brother, No, I was justgonna ask, I mean did at the
time that did you know as akid, hey, something's wrong. This
isn't right. These people shouldn't bedoing these things to me, Or did
you think that, hey, well, I guess this is normal. I
mean, well, how did youfeel about that? I really didn't think
(14:54):
either way about it. It wasjust the way. Oh, I just
felt like it didn't do me anygood. His talk, because nobody's a
blessing. I didn't think about anythingbecause I was told this is how it
was, so I didn't didn't thinkabout all of it. I just did
what. I just did whatever Iwas told to do. And no matter
(15:16):
who told me to do it,whether it was my sisters or brother or
a stranger, it could have beenanybody. And if you would have told
me to do something, I'd doit. I find that really disturbing.
But I mean, if you wereraised that way, then that's what you
would know. I mean, becauseyou know most people, you know,
when you think about your parents,I mean I think about my own parents.
(15:37):
I mean, my parents were great. They were supportive of me and
my brothers. They loved us.I mean, I am very, very
very blessed my God that my momand dad were just the greatest. And
you know what, when I wasa kid, I didn't appreciate how good
they were, you know, Imean I didn't. I didn't appreciate it
until I got older and I lookedback, you know, to see how
(15:58):
really how good parents are. AndI tried to be that way with my
kids. I was very protective ofmine. To me, it's just I
almost, based on how I wasraised, I almost expect that all parents
should be like that. But Idon't. I mean to hear that you
have parents that don't protect their children. That's foreign to me. And for
(16:18):
somebody to have gone like that andgrown up like that. And I know
you've told me that your faith andGod has gotten you through, but I
mean, to me, I almostwould think that you would take the attitude
like, well, if God wasreal, then why would he allow all
this to happen to me? Butyou didn't take that stance. And to
(16:40):
me, that's unusual because a lotof people, like when I experienced from
my personal you know, through workexperience a lot of these young people who
get abused, they turn to drugs, they turn alcohol, they turn to
other things, you know, apath of destruction. They don't try to
find anything positive, which to mesounds like that's what you've done. Is
that what you've done to get throughthis? I mean still your faith in
(17:03):
God? Yeah? Still, Andlike when I was little, I just
looked in my own world and mademy own place. And that's where I
stayed, whether it was singing songsor just to tending things in my head
and making them real and true.And I just swayed my own world.
And then oh, I was justgoing to say. And then at once,
(17:26):
at one time, I did getto go to church. It was
for vacation Bible schools. These peoplecome was coming around the houses, knocking
on doors and asking if there wasany kids that wanted to go. And
I wanted to go, and mymama didn't care if I went or not,
so I did, and I wouldwalk to the church and I went
every day, and they gave mecookies and punch and they sang, and
(17:52):
I had never ever been around anythinglike that before. And at the very
last day, this moment, oneof the women sat me on their lap
and read me a story. Itwas just a little storybook story of what
now the Bible or nothing? AndI knew, I knew that's what love
was. I knew that's what itmeant, and I knew that's what I
(18:15):
wanted. And I knew that Jesusloves me, and I knew when I
grew up that I would still lovehim. So back in those days,
like when you went to church,how you were young and then right were
you still a child? Then Iwas six when I with vacation Bible s
pooling. Now, I didn't goback to church until I was I think
(18:36):
I was eleven when I started tryingto find in a neighborhood. Did you
ever bring up anything to your churchabout your home life? Yeah, I
never. I never said anything toanyone at a church. How come?
I don't know why. I reallydon't know why I didn't. I guess
just because it was just the waythings was that I didn't. Maybe I
(18:56):
didn't think to say anything. ButI do know that when I was in
kindergarten, every day for kindergarten,I was loved packed a bread and butter
sandwich. But for some strange reason, this day I got an apple.
I don't I don't know how Igot that apple, but I got her
now, and my kindergarten teacher waspilling my apple for me, and she
(19:17):
asked me about the chest, meabout my weekend, and I just started
talking to her, not thinking.I was just talking, telling about my
weekend, and I told her somethings that that was going on, and
she just didn't She didn't hush meup or nothing. She let me let
she let me talk. And bythe time I had gotten home from school,
(19:40):
my Mamma I had already known thatI had said something, and it
made her very mad, and sheshe told me. She let me know
that I was not cold ever evertell what went on in that how ever,
so pretty much it was a threat. Yeah, because I was post
as it gets with her. It'sunderstandable. I mean, if you were
(20:02):
that young, you wouldn't. Youjust wouldn't know any different. If this
was going on and you knew thatit was normal, then I'm surprised that
that didn't happen more often. Youmean, like that I was telling my
I Ken I got him a teacher. Yeah that, I mean as you
grew up, surely you had conversationswith people telling them what was going on
in your life. And you're notthinking, no, no, I didn't
(20:27):
and I didn't. I didn't talkto people I like anytime I was at
school, any like any school.We moved around a lot up until I
could tell my mama hadn't married thisman or or there after that. We
finally moved into this one half andwe stayed there until I got married.
(20:47):
And but in school I never spoke. I said only what I had to
say that would be like to answera question or that's really a bad all.
I just didn't speak in full canI didn't have friends other than like
every once in a while, likea neighbor kid, but not very much,
not very often. To me,it just sounds like your entire childhood
(21:10):
was pretty much just stolen. Isthat why your mother moved you around so
much? Do you think so youwouldn't talk. It could be because in
every place we ever lived, youknow, it would be like very late
how in the country somewhere where theyweren't any houses around, or or in
a really just a small area somewherekind of where there's a lot of trees
(21:32):
around the house, you know,where you couldn't see what was going on,
who was coming and who was going. This was intentional. She was
keeping away from people so that shecould do whatever it was she was doing,
and not have to worry about anybodycoming around. There came a point
in time where I just I wouldn'thave talked to him. I wouldn't have
talked to nobody anyway. I wouldn'tknow. I just feel older, I
(21:53):
got more ashamed of I would getabout what was happening, and and there's
just not a way I would haveever spoken to people. I you should
just walk, keep to myself,keep my head down and do what I
had to give. WI see ye, now you told me that when you're
(22:14):
in high school, that a teachertried to intervene and help you out too.
Because you tell me about that,how did that happen? I always
wore baggy clothes because I always wantedto hide hide myself. But I always
were close that were way too bigand baggy, and I had some bruises
on my chest. And I hadwent up to the teacher's desk to do
(22:37):
something, and I had been overwell. When I did that, my
loose clothes had stopped down. Ididn't even know what that could even happen.
I went truth by life, notknowing that if you've bent over,
people could see you. I hadno idea. But that's what happened.
And I went back to my seatand sat down, and probably within I
think everybody into class or so wascalled down to. It wasn't the office,
(23:02):
I can't remember what it was.It was a place with thee they're
not police them. There are thesepeople that but they had a ball.
Oh security security, that's what itwas. Kend Yeah. So they had
called me down to their office andI was told then that I was going
to be taken away. How oldwere you? I was seventeen, And
(23:23):
really I remember, and I'm soshocked at myself to this day that I
even said at anything that I remembersaying to them, I'm seventeen years old
and you guys wanting to do thismail? I felt like you waited this
long and what's great and even messingwith it? Now? What did he
see? What did your teachers seethat made him so concerned? But he
(23:45):
saw bruises on my chat? Bruises? Yeah, So when he was what
did he what did he think itwas? Did he think somebody hit you?
Or did he ask you what itwas? Now if he didn't ask
me? Because I had a gooda school so many times with some kind
of a bruise on me, andI hadn't realized that anybody had thought it
(24:07):
because I tried so hard to tollbe a closed to keep myself hidden,
so I didn't realize anybody could seehim. So he had just seen it
so many times that he wasn't goingto let it go back. Okay,
Well, yeah, I think they'resupposed to report things when they see suspicious
things. So then you went downto security and you ask why they were
(24:29):
bothering to do this now? Andthen what happened? What happened next?
They took me there's a there's aguardian tone. I guess it's the state
where the state. It's almost likean orphanage. But they took me there,
and I remember I felt like acriminal because they sent me to this
room or I had to take abath, and they took all my clothes
(24:52):
and I had to take a bath, and they gave me different clothes to
there, and I had to goand then in front of this woman and
she had a look at my bodyfrom head to toe and it was so
humiliating, really, And then theybrought me to this room. It was
a room, a big room thathad bed like little top time of beds
with a little table next to eachone of them, and they signed me
(25:15):
to your bed, and I justremember sitting there and I looked my head
down and these girls coming up tome and trying to talk to me,
and I just scared to death andI didn't want to talk, and I
just thought it was my head down. And then my parents were called.
Let them know what was going on, my mama and her husband, and
then they come down to that home. So what became of it? I
(25:38):
mean, did an did anybody getarrested? I mean, did you tell
them what was going on? No? No, oh no no, because
you know, they waited until mymama and her husband was there, and
then they put me in a roomwith them, and then the person is
asking these questions and I just denyall love it. I just say no,
(26:03):
no, that's never happened that.I just said no to everything.
I think they would handle it differentlytoday, but I think I think so
too. Yeah, but my mamawas crying. They wouldn't question you with
her in the room. My mammawas crying and she kept saying, how
could you do this to me?How could you do this to me?
And her husband was sitting there withhis head down, and one of the
(26:25):
people, I think it was aone sort of a as is, a
psychiatrist I think, was in theroom and she looked at me and she
said, look how much they loveyou and you're hurting them like that.
And I remember, I remember thatso strong, and I remember going home
with them, and you know,just you just still deceeated after a while,
(26:47):
we just don't you just don't don'ttalk like you had just given up,
just blown away by the fact thatyou never turned to drugs or alcohol.
Were you tempted to No, no, never, never, never,
I want to say, you weren'teven tempted. Never crossed your mom.
It never crossed my mind, notone time. No. Like, my
mama drank vodka like I don't knowwhat it called it. It's like it's
(27:11):
like a skinny time with a longneck or something. I can't remember.
I don't know how much it isbecause she drank that every day, and
her husband at the time drank thisyear every day and before then, my
mama drank at the time. Smokescigarette. Everybody smokes cigarette, but a
lot of my sisters and brothers getdrugs, got into trouble. I just
(27:33):
was never attempted to do any otherSo to me, it just sounds like
you never had a chance. Imean from the time you were born till
the time you were released, tillyou got out of that house, you
just didn't have a chance. Imean, your mother used you, trafficked
you for, like you said,money, and I know you told me
other things just whatever, food,money, Yeah, you know. I
(27:56):
mean, I mean there were timeswhen I think remember being so tiny and
my clothes being taken off of meand being hung by my ankles outside the
attic window and just hung there.And then I was skilled to dance.
I can remember being locked in acloset. I can do so many different
things, and it just I guessit does something to your mind after a
(28:19):
while. And for me, thewhat I did is I just shut everybody
out and shut down and just stayedwithin myself. I mean, I know
you got married, but did youhave a fear that all men were like
the men that had molested you?I mean, if that was all you
knew, I would almost think youwould think that, like, oh,
(28:40):
all men must be like this.Yeah. I did everything I had I
thought I had said inside myself thatI will never I'm never going to get
married. I don't want anything,I don't want nothing to do this this
man at all, because yeah,I thought that's what they were, that's
what that's what men did. SoI just didn't want to be problem.
I don't blame you. Unfortunately,there are a lot of them that are
(29:03):
out there that are like that.There's a lot of predators. For instance,
on occasion, I go to mycounty's website and pull up the list
of all the sexual predators in mycounty, and I swear it lights up
like a freaking Christmas tree. Imean, you can go in and you
can look at their pictures. Youcan see where they live. It's Chelsea
because they have to report their address, and they're everywhere I mean where I
(29:26):
live at. They're all over theplace. I mean they're like mosquitoes.
And it's men. I mean there'sa few women on there, but it's
mostly men. Of course, it'sdifferent types of sexual whatever deviancy. But
it's just shocking to how much howit is. But you know, something
else that I've learned based on myprevious career in social services is now back
(29:52):
when this sort of thing happened toyou. Back in the eighties and seventies,
it was almost like children weren't believedand people thought children should be seen
and not her, and it wasn'tand it wasn't taken as seriously, whereas
today, you know, in twentynineteen, people are all over it.
(30:14):
I mean, if a child's beingmolested or something's happening, I mean a
lot of times, you know,social service agencies are just all over it.
And they've changed the way they doinvestigations, and they've gotten better at
it. And I think with psychologistsand psychiatrists, they've gotten even good at
spotting it, you know, wherethey can pick it out, whereas back
in the days of the seventies andeighties they didn't really look for it.
(30:37):
But today, if I'm a teacherand I'm in a situation where I have
a student that's got bruises, andI noticed that my student never talks,
then I'm gonna know something's going onin this girl's house and we have to
look into it. And the lastthing in the world I would ever do
is speak to her in front ofher parents. You know, I would
have to get you alone and talkto you, it almost goes back to
(30:59):
where I went on an investigation withwhen I was working for the county.
I went with the children's service workerand there was a case of an alleged
abuse of a child. And Iwent to the house with the worker and
I remember going through the cabinets,you know, checking to see if they
had electrics, seeing if there wasfood in the refrigerator, looking in his
(31:21):
bedroom, you know, looking atall the bedrooms, just looking around to
see if there was anything strange,you know, that seemed out of place.
And we did talk to the mother, but then we also pulled the
boy aside. We took the boyout out of the room and made the
mother go sit alone where the boycouldn't see the mother, and then we
questioned him. You know, weasked him things like, um, you
(31:41):
know, does anybody hit you?Do you eat? You know, we
were just asking him a bunch ofyou know, simple questions. I mean,
he was probably four or five yearsold. But the first thing we
did was take him away from themom. We made sure that you know,
he wasn't in the room with hismother. I mean, to me,
that's common sense. So I thinkthat I I find that disturbing in
your case where they would ask youin front of your mother, Well,
(32:05):
of course you're not going to answertruthful in front of your mother an implicator
some type of a crime that sheknows she could go to prison for.
I actually remember my mom was saying, Tommy, I would I would never
let nobody hurt you. I wouldnever let nobody touch you. I would
never let nobody do anything do anythingto you. And then she would have
(32:29):
me repeat it back to her,probably in case anybody ever asked, right
then you would instinctively just say that. So it sounds to me like your
mother was a Your mother had thisdown. Yeah, you know, she
she had it down, you know, being a child trafficker, and she
was such a she was she wassuch a child of people loved her.
(32:52):
People that oh my people love it, you know what. And that's that
that is true with a lot ofthem, a lot of them people when
they get they get arrested, it'salways like I never in a million years
would have thought that man or thatwoman would have done something like that.
They were always a good neighbor,they were always a good coworker. People
will say good things about them,but but what happens is on the outside.
They put on a facade, butbehind closed doors, And it just
(33:15):
sounds to me like your mom hadmastered the art of being evil, and
unfortunately you were the one that hadto suffer for it. And it happened
to you back in a day wherepeople really didn't well, I don't want
to say people didn't care about thewelfare of a child, but it just
wasn't considered as serious or taken asserious as it is today. So you
(33:38):
said, your mother's deceased, now, right right now? Before your mother
died, did she ever repent?Did she apologize to you? No.
Before she died, I can remembergetting a phone call that she had had
a heart attack and she was inthe hospital, and my husband took me
(34:00):
because I wanted to see her,and it was about an hour drive because
she lived we had to live anhour away from where she had lived,
and so he would drive me thereand I would go in her hospital room
and I talked to her a littlebit, and I'd tell her I loved
her, and I gave her akiss, and then that went on for
(34:21):
five days. She lived five daysin the hospital, but I went on
the first day and the second dayand the third day that I went,
I asked her did she know thatI loved her? And she told me
that she knew that the minute Iwas born. And I gave her a
kiss, and she told me toleave, and she told me she didn't
want me, and she wanted theman that she was married too. They
(34:45):
had gotten a divorce, but hethat she wanted him, and she told
me to go get him for her, that she don't want me, she
wants him. And I said okay, and I turned went outside the room
to my husband and I and Itold him for what she said, and
he said no, and I said, yes, it's what she wants.
I'm just going to do it.The next day she had died, so
(35:07):
that on one of those visits thatmay have been the second day that I
want to see her, she hadsaid to me, she said, it
don't really matter if there's when youdie, you die. I mean,
like, what if there's not aheaven, We're just going to die anyway
and you won't know it. AndI said, Mama, don't you believe.
Don't you believe there's a heaven andthere's hell. Don't you believe in
(35:29):
God? And she said, well, I just mean, what if you
know we we we won't know itanyway. We're just going to see your
stud die and be gone. Andso that was as close as should ever
can. But I don't think shereally believed evil to the end, huh.
I mean not even I'm sorry orI'm so sorry for all the torment
(35:50):
I put you through, or becauseshe obviously knew it was wrong and she
just didn't care. Oh never toldme when when I when I was said
us, mama, She never toldme that she loved me back and I
kissed her and hold her hand andnothing. Were you the only one?
I mean did the other siblings comeand see her or was it just you?
Yeah, they had all come tosee her. Yeah, So it
(36:13):
sounds like they probably didn't have thesame experience with her as you did.
No, because the reason is becauselike the older kids got out of a
half so early. I mean,like they quit school like when they were
at the time, you know,it was okay, you didn't have to
be sixteen to quit school. Soyou know, this was in the early
seventies, and so wake quit schooland got a job or so they would
(36:36):
they just go stay with a frienddon't not with them and things like that.
And then like the other kids thatwere a little bit older than me,
and the older ones that had lefthome too, but they were doing
things to me. So I wasgetting it from men and from my brothers
and sisters. No, did youever go to authorities on them? No?
(36:58):
I love my brothers and sisters,and I thought they've holped me too.
And I know that sounds crazy consideringwhat they were doing, but maybe
I just lopn't a very smart girlthat I loved them, so I thought
they've helped me too. Well,it's not that you were weren't smart.
It's just like you told me earlier, it's all you knew. And if
that's all you know is to beabused, molested, if that's all you've
(37:22):
ever known your whole life, thenthat's kind of what you expect other people
to do. And then when somebodycomes along and treat you with love and
kindness and compassion, then you're probablystumped. I mean, you're like,
wow, what's going on here?Are you okay? There? That's not
how people treat me, you know, which, I'm glad. I thank
God for you that you know youhave an amazing husband, you know,
(37:44):
and you're very fortunate that you havea loving and supportive husband, because a
lot of people who I think getabused and suffer these kind of things don't
find that man, that special manbecause they either don't trust the men or
they're just so broken that they justdon't recover, you know, they end
up on drugs or alcohol, oroverdosing on heroine or something. I mean,
(38:08):
these are the kind of things thatI learned about when I worked in
social services that that's typically what happens. They don't typically end up like you
where, you know, they don'tturn to those things and they find God
and they actually still managed to havesome type of faith in humanity, which
is something that I find really fascinatingabout you. I don't get it.
(38:28):
I mean I think if I wasyou, I would hate everything. And
for you to be so positive andto go to church, praise God and
just really lean on your faith,I mean that's I just find it such
a beautiful thing. I mean,it's very beautiful. I mean, I
consider myself a very faithful Christian follower, and I believe in treating people with
(38:49):
love and compassion. But see,I was raised that way. My parents
raised me with love and compassion.My parents taught me that that's how you
treat other people. They taught mybrothers that, so me and my brother
others are all like that. AndI taught my sons that way. So
we paid it forward. So itwas probably a little bit easier for me
to have faith in humanity and faithin God than it would be for say
(39:10):
you, who endured so much horrorin their life, and just to be
as strong as you've been. That'ssomething. It's strange because life with my
husband there was for some reason Iwas not afraid of him, and I
can I just I just knew that, I knew that there was something different,
(39:31):
but I was never afraid of him. And all throughout life, even
though everything was so bad, everynow and again it would be like these
little sweet things would happen that Iwould see, like vacation, Bible school.
Like I can remember walking to thislittle neighborhood for you know, a
(39:52):
mom and pop star, and Ican remember the owners just an old man
and an old woman and they wouldgive me a limon drop. But they
were my favorite, and they wouldgiven to me every time. I can't
remember being in high school in studyhall and for some reason a teacher bought
me a candy bar and smiled atme and give it to me. And
(40:12):
it may not seem like much toanybody, or people may say, well,
people would do that anyway, butit meant a whole lot to me.
It meant everything to me, becauseI think it's just that, yeah,
you have to I mean, theyare bad people, and most people
are bad, but that really aresome really good people in this world then
and now. I would say myparents were like that, and my grandparents,
(40:34):
I mean my grandparents were you know, they were married for like over
fifty years. They were they werehigh school sweethearts. And my grandfather,
he was a World War Two veteran, and you know, he's served in
the Navy. He was a pilot, and he was probably one of the
greatest men I've ever met in mywhole life. My grandfather was a strong,
strong, devout, faithful man inGod. I mean, he was
(40:58):
a devout Christian. He was nothypocrite. Everything that he said he did
he lived by. He wasn't thekind of guy to tell you not to
smoke and then he smoked a cigarette, or to tell you not to do
drugs and do drugs. When hesaid he something, he meant it.
My dad's the same way too.And then so I had two good role
models. And I watched how mygrandfather treated my grandmother, and I watched
how my dad treated my mom.And I've just seen these men just treat
(41:21):
these women so good, you know, when I always thought that that's just
how it was done, you know. So I've been fortunate to have good
role models. I feel like eventhough all of that, he even so
all that happened, and that wasthe weddings was I feel like I've gotten
more than what I deserved. Now, I've been blessed beyond measure, more
(41:44):
than I could have ever ever hopedto. Then that sounds really good.
That's I mean, I don't understandhow you feel that way, but well,
I mean I never had a boyfriend, you know, I never had
to go through that part of tryingto find somebody. It was literally like
God, just give me my I'sbeen just right in and there. I
mean, I was married right whenI was eighteen years old. We've been
(42:05):
married thirty one years. I knewit was right, he knew, we
just knew it was. It wasright. That when you know that person,
you just know it. And Iknew that it was from God,
and so why I am beyond blessedjust right there. And then you know
he's and he's a preacher, andso that's even a bigger blessing for me.
And I get to teach Sunday school, and that's even a bigger,
(42:27):
bigger blessing that I get to bearound them pretty little ladies all the time.
Unfortunately, most stories don't end likeyours, don't end the way yours
did. I mean, they mostof them do. Not yours is yours
is a very very rare and Iyou know, and that's why I told
you, I I hope that youreally truly appreciate everything that you have with
your husband, because what happens inyour situation is not the standard. It's
(42:52):
it's an anomaly. Actually. Butso, and let me ask you this
about your mom. Do you forgiveher or you stilt bitter or angry?
Yeah? I'm not better or angry, and I don't think I really ever
have been. I always loved herand I always wanted her to love me
back. But it was okay thatshe didn't. But I remember when she
(43:13):
died. I remember that car ridehome. I remember when she died and
I went into the room and shewas dead. Me and my husband went
in there, and she was bruisedbecause she had fallen from the heart attack,
so her face was completely bruised.She was swallowing. They had two
be down her throat and in herarms and in her hands, and everywhether
had her wrapped up bully in astrange way. And I just went to
(43:37):
her and I held her hand.It was hard to hold her hand with
all those poods and everything. ThatI held her hand and I kept kissing
her and I told her I lovedher, and I told her I just
wanted her to know that I wishshe could have known how much I love
her. And the car ride home, all I could think was, there's
nothing bigger than love. That nomatter how bad it is, no matter
(43:59):
how many someday he is, nomatter how much somebody hurts you, that
love is so much deeper and biggerthan that, that all could be forgiven
if they would just love you back. I love it, just love it
so so big that it can justforgive it all. So it sounds to
me like there really was nothing toforgive because you were never angry, so
you just loved her anyway, Therewas nothing to forgive, right I was
(44:22):
never angry with her. I wasreally never angry with anybody. Maybe I'm
an odd dect. I only don'tknow, but I was just not an
angry person. So if there's somebodyout there that listens to this and they're
going through the same thing, andthey're being you know, trafficked by a
parent or relative, or they're ina situation where they're being abused, you
(44:43):
know, mentally sexually, what wouldyou say to that person right now if
you knew and they were to talkto you or they listen to this,
what would you say to that person? I would say that person not to
blame God for any of it,because God's not doing any event, that
he loves you. And to alwaysfind the good in every situation, no
matter how bad things get, nomatter how bad things ever ever are,
(45:06):
look for something good and I don'tcare if it's just going outside and find
them a flower or anything, nomatter what it is. Find something.
And there are people out there thatare good people, so are beyond good
and try to find somebody. Andif that person doesn't listen to you,
or you're not comfortable, like ifyou start talking to him and then something
(45:28):
inside and he says, oh no, this isn't the person. Just don't
stop. Find somebody else. Andwhen you're teeny tiny, I know,
it's really hard because your world isso limited to home and school and that
is that's it. And a lotof times nowadays you're home school, but
you don't even get to good getout. But maybe maybe a neighbor or
maybe like when you go to thegrocery store and somebody a customer or somebody
(45:52):
who looks at this grocery store.The reason I even say grocery store is
because I meant and a woman andthey're older, they're like twenty years older
than me. But there's the sweetestpeople and they both looked at this grocery
store, at the big grocery store, and I talked to them one time,
and it would have been those wouldhave been the people to have told
(46:15):
if I if I ever would havetold, those would have been the people
that would have made a huge difference. But I would tell somebody they just
don't give up looking. You knowyou will find You'll find those people everywhere.
Absolutely everywhere, So you're definitely sayingthey should find somebody to tell.
They should find somebody to tell becausethe sinner the sinner that they can get
(46:38):
away from it, then you knowthe words they have to endure because it's
true what you say. I mean, a lot of people they're not going
to be okay for the rest oftheir lives. And I'm not saying that
I'm okay. I've got my youknow, I've got trouble in that way
too, but you just they justreally need to find somebody and not explain
God and just look something good.And every day I have been told I
(47:01):
have been called Thames like Mary Poppinsand Paullianna and all that stuff that that's
supposed to hurt or you know,if they said it to me in a
mean way, like you know,and it hurt my feelings, I guess
it did hurt my feelings. ButI am who I am, and well
that's what I've always done. I'vealways I've always found something to be thankful
(47:21):
for her, even even in theworst situations, in the worst places.
There's a I don't know if you'refamiliar with Casper ten Boom and his daughters,
they were in the concentration camp.Were you familiar with them? Hey,
well, his daughter Betsy and Coyten Boom there was in consication camp
and they had said while they wasthere, there's no pitzode, that God's
(47:45):
love is not deeper still and that'sthe truth. Sounds like some pretty good
words to live by. You saidthat you go through counseling or therapy.
Does that Does that help? Ijust started It was right before thank you
all, right before Thanksgiving. Soit's been about five months because I've missed
a couple of fashions for reasons thatwe had to take care of something.
(48:07):
But does it help? It's kindof maybe a little early to stay full.
I am seeing a woman therapist,and I feel like if you're a
girl, that's this to see awoman therapist's I mean, well it's beys
for me. I'll to say thatit's says and she's a Christian and she's
very she's very easy to talk to, and she works. She works with
(48:30):
you. And so if you canfind a fit therapays someone who talked to
and it takes their time with you. I mean she doesn't look at the
cloth sometimes I'm there two and threehours. Is it helping? I don't
know that. Like my husband willsay he seems a difference. People at
church that's called me that they've seemedsome difference in the lacking month. But
I'm more calm, more open,more not for myself so much, so
(48:53):
I guess I would have to saythat it does help. Okay, So
if other people are saying it,than probably it is. I think sometimes
talking about things helps. I thinkit does, and it's hard. It's
one of the hardest things you'll everhave to do is to have those words
come out of your mouse. Hopefullyyou're able to I guess I don't want
to say forget, because you'll neverbe able to forget, but hopefully this
(49:15):
experience will you'll understand the purpose ofwhy it happened, if there is a
purpose. I'm not one of thosekinds of people. I don't think.
I don't think there's a reason,Like I don't think there's a reason for
everything that happens. I think thereason sometimes is people's choices. And some
people are just the choice of saying, make are mean choices, and then
(49:36):
you get in that way of theirmen choices they do something to you.
Wow, I guess well, that'spretty much about all I really want to
ask, you know, so,I just want to say thanks for sharing
that with me. It's a definitelygive me a lot to think about.
Thank you, he who helped him
Americans care a lot about money.We talk about jobs and taxes and paychecks.
But here's what we don't talk about. Right here in the United States,
there is a thriving underground economy basedon selling children for sex. If
sex sells, then business is good. Look at all the money. It
(00:21):
was almost a billion dollars in thisstudy. But these dirty profits come at
a huge cost. This is howsex traffickers do business. It's about supply
and demand. First, they needsomeone to sell. Traffickers target children in
their own homes. They find themby combing through social media profiles looking to
(00:44):
sparker conversation. The trafficker targets preteensand teens by finding an end, something
to bond over and earn their trust. That could be the promise of a
modeling career. They might buy themdrugs or alcohol, or provide protection from
an already dangerous situation at home.Traffickers gain psychological control and use violent threats
(01:07):
to force victims to say. Oncethe child is isolated from family and friends,
the trafficker puts them up for sale. This is where the demand comes
in. Traffickers use internet sites toconnect with buyers or john's but calling them.
John's is too polite. They areabusers. They are purchasing kids for
(01:30):
sex. So who are these buyers? Court record show they've been teachers,
pastors, cops and judges. Theycould be the guy next door. The
trafficker gets the money, the buyergets sex. The child victim gets exploited
and sold. So how is thisdifferent from prostitution, pornography or other sexual
(01:53):
acts. These victims are miners.Legally, they cannot consent. This isn't
the movies. It's not like PrettyWoman or Taken. Richard gear is not
the buyer. Liam Neeson isn't thereto save the day. This is sexual
exploitation. This is trafficking. Thisis modern day slavery. It's selling girls.
(02:49):
This is Mark. I'm a formercontributor for the Huffington Post and currently
write a weekly column for the Claremont'sSign in Ohio newspaper that is nearly two
hundred years old. This is thepodcast that covers stories about strange events and
crimes committed by evil men and women. Although most people think that slavery is
something from the past, this isn'tentirely true. It still goes on today.
(03:14):
But instead of calling it slavery.We call it human trafficking. It's
an evil business that generates billions ofdollars in profits globally. In many cases,
people are forced into performing manual labor, or they might even be trafficked
for their organs. In this episode, I want to focus more on sex
trafficking, which is forcing people intoperforming sexual acts for profit. Although this
(03:38):
is a worldwide problem, it's alsobig business in America. Traffickers use violence,
threats, deception, and other tacticsto force people into commercial sex.
Here are a few statistics. TheInternational Labor Organization estimates that forced labor in
human trafficking is a one hundred andfifty billion dollar industry worldwide in twenty seventeen,
(04:03):
and estimated one out of seven endangeredrunaways reported to the National Center for
Missing and Exploited Children were likely childsex trafficking victims. Of those, eighty
eight percent were in the care ofsocial services or foster care when they ran
away. Although I find sex traffickingto be the lowest form of evil,
(04:25):
I find the worst cases are whenparents traffic their own children for financial gain.
As a parent, our duty isto protect our children. We're supposed
to love them and teach them tobecome productive citizens. Unfortunately, there were
parents in America who will gladly allowmen to sexually abuse their children for financial
(04:46):
gain. And two eighteen, aGeorgia man named Richard Office received life in
prison without the possibility of parole plusone hundred and forty six years. The
seventy eight year old man was convictedof rape, trafficking person for sexual servitude,
two counts of child molestation, andthree counts of enticing a child for
indecent purposes. Office had purchased sexualservices for the two girls from their own
(05:11):
mother. The twenty five year oldunnamed mother had sold her two daughters,
ages five and six, to Officefor money. She received a thirty year
prison sentence. The DA said thatin twenty seventeen, Richard Office, whom
the girls knew is pop, touchedthem and kissed them inappropriately in the bedroom
of his home while their mother waitedin the living room. After molesting them,
(05:31):
Office reportedly gave the girls one hundreddollars and their mother took the money.
The DA said the younger of thetwo girls was injured in the assault.
A second man, Alfred Treo,was convicted in Fulton County for raping
the girls in the same manner.He received twenty five years in prison,
followed by life on probation. Thisstory proves that evil truly exists. In
(05:58):
this week's episode, I interviewed womanI will call Jane. She experienced the
same horror as the two young girlsI just mentioned from the time Jane was
three ncel she was seventeen. Shewas trafficked for sex by her own mother,
who brought deviant men into the familyhome and allowed them to have sex
with Jane. In return for sexwith her, these deviants pay Jane's mother
(06:18):
with cash, food, or theypaid her rent or bills. Yes,
evil is real and the monsters areout there. I wanted to put a
quick warning out there. Some ofthe people may find this episode highly disturbing,
and if you think that you mightbe one of those people, you
may want to go ahead and turnthis off because sex trafficking is really disturbing.
(06:44):
It's evil and it is real.So I wanted to go ahead and
give you that disclaimer before listening.Otherwise, on with the show. I'm
going to go ahead and start byjust saying that you were in a situation
where you were sexually trafficked as achild. So I just want to ask
you questions from as a victim.Is how you feel and what happened and
(07:10):
what type of experience? What didit lead to and how has it affected
you today? So if you wantto just go ahead and just start from
the beginning and just tell me whathappened, Okay, Well, really it's
all I ever knew. How It'sjust how I grew up. That my
mama had a lot of different men, and there was those different men coming
(07:32):
in and then of the house allthe time. You didn't know any of
them though, right, right,Well, some of them, some of
them my name, and some ofthem didn't know because some of them would
come more than one time. No, it was your mom that would bring
these men over. Correct, right, She would get all like, she
would get all dressed, stuff,she put makeup on, and she put
(07:56):
on a long budwick and these clothand high heels, and she would leave.
And then when she come home,she did sometimes bring a man home,
or a lot of times will shewould leave with the men. And
when men would come into the house, well she was gone that she had
(08:16):
already sent some men to the house. But it was like that. Apparently
these men they knew what they weredoing, they were going to do before
they came over, and had alreadyworked something out with your mother that So
were they there to just to molestyou? Is that is that what it
was? I can't so. Imean they were there, and I noticed
(08:37):
every time they were there, that'swhat would happen. Some of the men
would bring food. They bring food. Yeah, what was the purpose of
that? I guess just to bringus something to eat? Are you saying
that in exchange for what they coulddo? They would buy you food?
So it wasn't like they were necessarilyjust giving money. They were trading food
(08:58):
for well I think, yeah,it wasn't always this money. It would
be food like pay bills. Theywould paying my momas sills or a buyer
thing. It just depended on Iguess whatever they wanted to do. And
how old were you when this startedhappening at this time? I can really
really remember it as that back threeor four or four. I mean,
(09:22):
you can remember that long ago.I guess it was that traumatic. Yeah,
I can was that long ago.You'd be surprised at what she can
remember her. You have to understandit's it's for me, it's hard to
fathom. I mean, I've readso much and as my former career in
social services I've dealt with I workwith children who had been ranked and molested.
(09:43):
I've always had a hard time atunderstanding it. And I guess it's
just something that I never will understandor be able to comprehend because to me,
I find it to be so eviland it used to really bother me
when it was my career. Sojust kind of listening to somebody just really
tell me how just confirming to mejust how evil people are. It's just
(10:03):
really difficult to understand. What wouldthey do? They come over and yes,
well, I mean what would theydo to you? You mean details?
Well, they would like pull outthe catch and set a chair behind
the cot, and then they wouldmake me get on money and do things.
And like they put me in thebathtub and it would be really hot
(10:26):
water. They put me in thetest and just two different things. You
don't have to really go into detail. I mean, just yeah, that's
fine. I mean it sounds likeit's uncomfortable, let's understand. So they
would just do these things. Andyour mom, I mean, where would
she so sometimes you said she wouldbe there, and sometimes she would leave
right Usually she would please that.A lot of times she was there too
(10:50):
at the house. And it ain'tthat she didn't know what was going on,
because she didn't know what was goingon. Now you haven't You said
you have sibling too, right,right, I'm the youngest and I've got
one of My mama had twelve babiesthat two of them died at bus so
she had tend I'm thinking he's thirteenor thirteen years older than me. Were
(11:15):
your siblings all there? The ten? Were they there? They must have
been there then, right, Yeah, they were there, But like my
oldest brother, I think he leftand run into the army when I was
two, so I barely remember muchabout him. And I had, yeah,
and one of my sisters was injuvenile one of them will welcome.
Some of them had quit school,guy's job, and then some of them
(11:37):
were you know, built like kidsin the hand. They also get molested
or was it just you no,for whatever reason, and your mother just
just was okay with it. Mymama was She would get really mean and
really mad, and who I wasjust really scared of her. She was
(11:58):
like for no reason. I rememberher having this strap that had these metal
poles in it, and I canjust remember her going crazy and just taking
that strap and just hitting everybody.But I always ran underneath the table on
hit so she couldn't get me.Was this if you didn't cooperate? Is
that? Did she? Is thatwhat she would do? If you didn't
(12:18):
co operate, She would go onover rage. She would going to a
rage like that, like if webroke something, or if yeah, if
if you steal something, or ifyou broke something or yeah, just something
like that. She always she alwaystold me, She always told us that
if we ever told anybody that shewas off her teeth down the soot.
(12:41):
Well, she's the only adult there. I mean your dad, But your
dad wasn't in the picture. Didyou have grandparents or uncle's or ants or
anything. No, my grandparents,but my most parents had already passed before
I was born. My father,I don't know about him or his family.
So yeah, she was still theonly adult other than the man that
(13:03):
would be around. How long didthis go on for? Well, men
were coming over and doing whatever itwas they were doing. Yes, how
how many years? I mean,you said, you can remember back to
when you were three. When didit end? Howl of confusing that like
that, Paul of it ended whenshe married this other man and she got
married and she got married. Yeah, she got married to this man when
(13:26):
I was nine. And it wasn'tlike it had stopped altogether, because there
were still like some of them peoplewere show around. You had a stepdad
at nine, and your stepdad allowedthis to go on. It didn't go
on like that, I mean,so it was just like, oh yeah,
(13:48):
when on my bed, I justnan. It wasn't like men were
coming and going anymore. It wasmore like like some of them people,
some of them men from that time, they they were showing then they would
still come on name and they wouldstill do whatever they wanted to do.
And your stepdad wouldn't saying anything.No, no, did he do anything.
(14:11):
He was a very name, veryname. Oh wow, So he
didn't even try to protect you.Then you felt it nice could ask.
So you had your mom, astepdad, and you had all these siblings
in your house, all these peoplein this house, right, and nobody
said anything. Nobody tried to helpyou. Absolutely not. Now, my
(14:33):
brother, No, I was justgonna ask, I mean did at the
time that did you know as akid, hey, something's wrong. This
isn't right. These people shouldn't bedoing these things to me, Or did
you think that, hey, well, I guess this is normal. I
mean, well, how did youfeel about that? I really didn't think
(14:54):
either way about it. It wasjust the way. Oh, I just
felt like it didn't do me anygood. His talk, because nobody's a
blessing. I didn't think about anythingbecause I was told this is how it
was, so I didn't didn't thinkabout all of it. I just did
what. I just did whatever Iwas told to do. And no matter
(15:16):
who told me to do it,whether it was my sisters or brother or
a stranger, it could have beenanybody. And if you would have told
me to do something, I'd doit. I find that really disturbing.
But I mean, if you wereraised that way, then that's what you
would know. I mean, becauseyou know most people, you know,
when you think about your parents,I mean I think about my own parents.
(15:37):
I mean, my parents were great. They were supportive of me and
my brothers. They loved us.I mean, I am very, very
very blessed my God that my momand dad were just the greatest. And
you know what, when I wasa kid, I didn't appreciate how good
they were, you know, Imean I didn't. I didn't appreciate it
until I got older and I lookedback, you know, to see how
(15:58):
really how good parents are. AndI tried to be that way with my
kids. I was very protective ofmine. To me, it's just I
almost, based on how I wasraised, I almost expect that all parents
should be like that. But Idon't. I mean to hear that you
have parents that don't protect their children. That's foreign to me. And for
(16:18):
somebody to have gone like that andgrown up like that. And I know
you've told me that your faith andGod has gotten you through, but I
mean, to me, I almostwould think that you would take the attitude
like, well, if God wasreal, then why would he allow all
this to happen to me? Butyou didn't take that stance. And to
(16:40):
me, that's unusual because a lotof people, like when I experienced from
my personal you know, through workexperience a lot of these young people who
get abused, they turn to drugs, they turn alcohol, they turn to
other things, you know, apath of destruction. They don't try to
find anything positive, which to mesounds like that's what you've done. Is
that what you've done to get throughthis? I mean still your faith in
(17:03):
God? Yeah? Still, Andlike when I was little, I just
looked in my own world and mademy own place. And that's where I
stayed, whether it was singing songsor just to tending things in my head
and making them real and true.And I just swayed my own world.
And then oh, I was justgoing to say. And then at once,
(17:26):
at one time, I did getto go to church. It was
for vacation Bible schools. These peoplecome was coming around the houses, knocking
on doors and asking if there wasany kids that wanted to go. And
I wanted to go, and mymama didn't care if I went or not,
so I did, and I wouldwalk to the church and I went
every day, and they gave mecookies and punch and they sang, and
(17:52):
I had never ever been around anythinglike that before. And at the very
last day, this moment, oneof the women sat me on their lap
and read me a story. Itwas just a little storybook story of what
now the Bible or nothing? AndI knew, I knew that's what love
was. I knew that's what itmeant, and I knew that's what I
(18:15):
wanted. And I knew that Jesusloves me, and I knew when I
grew up that I would still lovehim. So back in those days,
like when you went to church,how you were young and then right were
you still a child? Then Iwas six when I with vacation Bible s
pooling. Now, I didn't goback to church until I was I think
(18:36):
I was eleven when I started tryingto find in a neighborhood. Did you
ever bring up anything to your churchabout your home life? Yeah, I
never. I never said anything toanyone at a church. How come?
I don't know why. I reallydon't know why I didn't. I guess
just because it was just the waythings was that I didn't. Maybe I
(18:56):
didn't think to say anything. ButI do know that when I was in
kindergarten, every day for kindergarten,I was loved packed a bread and butter
sandwich. But for some strange reason, this day I got an apple.
I don't I don't know how Igot that apple, but I got her
now, and my kindergarten teacher waspilling my apple for me, and she
(19:17):
asked me about the chest, meabout my weekend, and I just started
talking to her, not thinking.I was just talking, telling about my
weekend, and I told her somethings that that was going on, and
she just didn't She didn't hush meup or nothing. She let me let
she let me talk. And bythe time I had gotten home from school,
(19:40):
my Mamma I had already known thatI had said something, and it
made her very mad, and sheshe told me. She let me know
that I was not cold ever evertell what went on in that how ever,
so pretty much it was a threat. Yeah, because I was post
as it gets with her. It'sunderstandable. I mean, if you were
(20:02):
that young, you wouldn't. Youjust wouldn't know any different. If this
was going on and you knew thatit was normal, then I'm surprised that
that didn't happen more often. Youmean, like that I was telling my
I Ken I got him a teacher. Yeah that, I mean as you
grew up, surely you had conversationswith people telling them what was going on
in your life. And you're notthinking, no, no, I didn't
(20:27):
and I didn't. I didn't talkto people I like anytime I was at
school, any like any school.We moved around a lot up until I
could tell my mama hadn't married thisman or or there after that. We
finally moved into this one half andwe stayed there until I got married.
(20:47):
And but in school I never spoke. I said only what I had to
say that would be like to answera question or that's really a bad all.
I just didn't speak in full canI didn't have friends other than like
every once in a while, likea neighbor kid, but not very much,
not very often. To me,it just sounds like your entire childhood
(21:10):
was pretty much just stolen. Isthat why your mother moved you around so
much? Do you think so youwouldn't talk. It could be because in
every place we ever lived, youknow, it would be like very late
how in the country somewhere where theyweren't any houses around, or or in
a really just a small area somewherekind of where there's a lot of trees
(21:32):
around the house, you know,where you couldn't see what was going on,
who was coming and who was going. This was intentional. She was
keeping away from people so that shecould do whatever it was she was doing,
and not have to worry about anybodycoming around. There came a point
in time where I just I wouldn'thave talked to him. I wouldn't have
talked to nobody anyway. I wouldn'tknow. I just feel older, I
(21:53):
got more ashamed of I would getabout what was happening, and and there's
just not a way I would haveever spoken to people. I you should
just walk, keep to myself,keep my head down and do what I
had to give. WI see ye, now you told me that when you're
(22:14):
in high school, that a teachertried to intervene and help you out too.
Because you tell me about that,how did that happen? I always
wore baggy clothes because I always wantedto hide hide myself. But I always
were close that were way too bigand baggy, and I had some bruises
on my chest. And I hadwent up to the teacher's desk to do
(22:37):
something, and I had been overwell. When I did that, my
loose clothes had stopped down. Ididn't even know what that could even happen.
I went truth by life, notknowing that if you've bent over,
people could see you. I hadno idea. But that's what happened.
And I went back to my seatand sat down, and probably within I
think everybody into class or so wascalled down to. It wasn't the office,
(23:02):
I can't remember what it was.It was a place with thee they're
not police them. There are thesepeople that but they had a ball.
Oh security security, that's what itwas. Kend Yeah. So they had
called me down to their office andI was told then that I was going
to be taken away. How oldwere you? I was seventeen, And
(23:23):
really I remember, and I'm soshocked at myself to this day that I
even said at anything that I remembersaying to them, I'm seventeen years old
and you guys wanting to do thismail? I felt like you waited this
long and what's great and even messingwith it? Now? What did he
see? What did your teachers seethat made him so concerned? But he
(23:45):
saw bruises on my chat? Bruises? Yeah, So when he was what
did he what did he think itwas? Did he think somebody hit you?
Or did he ask you what itwas? Now if he didn't ask
me? Because I had a gooda school so many times with some kind
of a bruise on me, andI hadn't realized that anybody had thought it
(24:07):
because I tried so hard to tollbe a closed to keep myself hidden,
so I didn't realize anybody could seehim. So he had just seen it
so many times that he wasn't goingto let it go back. Okay,
Well, yeah, I think they'resupposed to report things when they see suspicious
things. So then you went downto security and you ask why they were
(24:29):
bothering to do this now? Andthen what happened? What happened next?
They took me there's a there's aguardian tone. I guess it's the state
where the state. It's almost likean orphanage. But they took me there,
and I remember I felt like acriminal because they sent me to this
room or I had to take abath, and they took all my clothes
(24:52):
and I had to take a bath, and they gave me different clothes to
there, and I had to goand then in front of this woman and
she had a look at my bodyfrom head to toe and it was so
humiliating, really, And then theybrought me to this room. It was
a room, a big room thathad bed like little top time of beds
with a little table next to eachone of them, and they signed me
(25:15):
to your bed, and I justremember sitting there and I looked my head
down and these girls coming up tome and trying to talk to me,
and I just scared to death andI didn't want to talk, and I
just thought it was my head down. And then my parents were called.
Let them know what was going on, my mama and her husband, and
then they come down to that home. So what became of it? I
(25:38):
mean, did an did anybody getarrested? I mean, did you tell
them what was going on? No? No, oh no no, because
you know, they waited until mymama and her husband was there, and
then they put me in a roomwith them, and then the person is
asking these questions and I just denyall love it. I just say no,
(26:03):
no, that's never happened that.I just said no to everything.
I think they would handle it differentlytoday, but I think I think so
too. Yeah, but my mamawas crying. They wouldn't question you with
her in the room. My mammawas crying and she kept saying, how
could you do this to me?How could you do this to me?
And her husband was sitting there withhis head down, and one of the
(26:25):
people, I think it was aone sort of a as is, a
psychiatrist I think, was in theroom and she looked at me and she
said, look how much they loveyou and you're hurting them like that.
And I remember, I remember thatso strong, and I remember going home
with them, and you know,just you just still deceeated after a while,
(26:47):
we just don't you just don't don'ttalk like you had just given up,
just blown away by the fact thatyou never turned to drugs or alcohol.
Were you tempted to No, no, never, never, never,
I want to say, you weren'teven tempted. Never crossed your mom.
It never crossed my mind, notone time. No. Like, my
mama drank vodka like I don't knowwhat it called it. It's like it's
(27:11):
like a skinny time with a longneck or something. I can't remember.
I don't know how much it isbecause she drank that every day, and
her husband at the time drank thisyear every day and before then, my
mama drank at the time. Smokescigarette. Everybody smokes cigarette, but a
lot of my sisters and brothers getdrugs, got into trouble. I just
(27:33):
was never attempted to do any otherSo to me, it just sounds like
you never had a chance. Imean from the time you were born till
the time you were released, tillyou got out of that house, you
just didn't have a chance. Imean, your mother used you, trafficked
you for, like you said,money, and I know you told me
other things just whatever, food,money, Yeah, you know. I
(27:56):
mean, I mean there were timeswhen I think remember being so tiny and
my clothes being taken off of meand being hung by my ankles outside the
attic window and just hung there.And then I was skilled to dance.
I can remember being locked in acloset. I can do so many different
things, and it just I guessit does something to your mind after a
(28:19):
while. And for me, thewhat I did is I just shut everybody
out and shut down and just stayedwithin myself. I mean, I know
you got married, but did youhave a fear that all men were like
the men that had molested you?I mean, if that was all you
knew, I would almost think youwould think that, like, oh,
(28:40):
all men must be like this.Yeah. I did everything I had I
thought I had said inside myself thatI will never I'm never going to get
married. I don't want anything,I don't want nothing to do this this
man at all, because yeah,I thought that's what they were, that's
what that's what men did. SoI just didn't want to be problem.
I don't blame you. Unfortunately,there are a lot of them that are
(29:03):
out there that are like that.There's a lot of predators. For instance,
on occasion, I go to mycounty's website and pull up the list
of all the sexual predators in mycounty, and I swear it lights up
like a freaking Christmas tree. Imean, you can go in and you
can look at their pictures. Youcan see where they live. It's Chelsea
because they have to report their address, and they're everywhere I mean where I
(29:26):
live at. They're all over theplace. I mean they're like mosquitoes.
And it's men. I mean there'sa few women on there, but it's
mostly men. Of course, it'sdifferent types of sexual whatever deviancy. But
it's just shocking to how much howit is. But you know, something
else that I've learned based on myprevious career in social services is now back
(29:52):
when this sort of thing happened toyou. Back in the eighties and seventies,
it was almost like children weren't believedand people thought children should be seen
and not her, and it wasn'tand it wasn't taken as seriously, whereas
today, you know, in twentynineteen, people are all over it.
(30:14):
I mean, if a child's beingmolested or something's happening, I mean a
lot of times, you know,social service agencies are just all over it.
And they've changed the way they doinvestigations, and they've gotten better at
it. And I think with psychologistsand psychiatrists, they've gotten even good at
spotting it, you know, wherethey can pick it out, whereas back
in the days of the seventies andeighties they didn't really look for it.
(30:37):
But today, if I'm a teacherand I'm in a situation where I have
a student that's got bruises, andI noticed that my student never talks,
then I'm gonna know something's going onin this girl's house and we have to
look into it. And the lastthing in the world I would ever do
is speak to her in front ofher parents. You know, I would
have to get you alone and talkto you, it almost goes back to
(30:59):
where I went on an investigation withwhen I was working for the county.
I went with the children's service workerand there was a case of an alleged
abuse of a child. And Iwent to the house with the worker and
I remember going through the cabinets,you know, checking to see if they
had electrics, seeing if there wasfood in the refrigerator, looking in his
(31:21):
bedroom, you know, looking atall the bedrooms, just looking around to
see if there was anything strange,you know, that seemed out of place.
And we did talk to the mother, but then we also pulled the
boy aside. We took the boyout out of the room and made the
mother go sit alone where the boycouldn't see the mother, and then we
questioned him. You know, weasked him things like, um, you
(31:41):
know, does anybody hit you?Do you eat? You know, we
were just asking him a bunch ofyou know, simple questions. I mean,
he was probably four or five yearsold. But the first thing we
did was take him away from themom. We made sure that you know,
he wasn't in the room with hismother. I mean, to me,
that's common sense. So I thinkthat I I find that disturbing in
your case where they would ask youin front of your mother, Well,
(32:05):
of course you're not going to answertruthful in front of your mother an implicator
some type of a crime that sheknows she could go to prison for.
I actually remember my mom was saying, Tommy, I would I would never
let nobody hurt you. I wouldnever let nobody touch you. I would
never let nobody do anything do anythingto you. And then she would have
(32:29):
me repeat it back to her,probably in case anybody ever asked, right
then you would instinctively just say that. So it sounds to me like your
mother was a Your mother had thisdown. Yeah, you know, she
she had it down, you know, being a child trafficker, and she
was such a she was she wassuch a child of people loved her.
(32:52):
People that oh my people love it, you know what. And that's that
that is true with a lot ofthem, a lot of them people when
they get they get arrested, it'salways like I never in a million years
would have thought that man or thatwoman would have done something like that.
They were always a good neighbor,they were always a good coworker. People
will say good things about them,but but what happens is on the outside.
They put on a facade, butbehind closed doors, And it just
(33:15):
sounds to me like your mom hadmastered the art of being evil, and
unfortunately you were the one that hadto suffer for it. And it happened
to you back in a day wherepeople really didn't well, I don't want
to say people didn't care about thewelfare of a child, but it just
wasn't considered as serious or taken asserious as it is today. So you
(33:38):
said, your mother's deceased, now, right right now? Before your mother
died, did she ever repent?Did she apologize to you? No.
Before she died, I can remembergetting a phone call that she had had
a heart attack and she was inthe hospital, and my husband took me
(34:00):
because I wanted to see her,and it was about an hour drive because
she lived we had to live anhour away from where she had lived,
and so he would drive me thereand I would go in her hospital room
and I talked to her a littlebit, and I'd tell her I loved
her, and I gave her akiss, and then that went on for
(34:21):
five days. She lived five daysin the hospital, but I went on
the first day and the second dayand the third day that I went,
I asked her did she know thatI loved her? And she told me
that she knew that the minute Iwas born. And I gave her a
kiss, and she told me toleave, and she told me she didn't
want me, and she wanted theman that she was married too. They
(34:45):
had gotten a divorce, but hethat she wanted him, and she told
me to go get him for her, that she don't want me, she
wants him. And I said okay, and I turned went outside the room
to my husband and I and Itold him for what she said, and
he said no, and I said, yes, it's what she wants.
I'm just going to do it.The next day she had died, so
(35:07):
that on one of those visits thatmay have been the second day that I
want to see her, she hadsaid to me, she said, it
don't really matter if there's when youdie, you die. I mean,
like, what if there's not aheaven, We're just going to die anyway
and you won't know it. AndI said, Mama, don't you believe.
Don't you believe there's a heaven andthere's hell. Don't you believe in
(35:29):
God? And she said, well, I just mean, what if you
know we we we won't know itanyway. We're just going to see your
stud die and be gone. Andso that was as close as should ever
can. But I don't think shereally believed evil to the end, huh.
I mean not even I'm sorry orI'm so sorry for all the torment
(35:50):
I put you through, or becauseshe obviously knew it was wrong and she
just didn't care. Oh never toldme when when I when I was said
us, mama, She never toldme that she loved me back and I
kissed her and hold her hand andnothing. Were you the only one?
I mean did the other siblings comeand see her or was it just you?
Yeah, they had all come tosee her. Yeah, So it
(36:13):
sounds like they probably didn't have thesame experience with her as you did.
No, because the reason is becauselike the older kids got out of a
half so early. I mean,like they quit school like when they were
at the time, you know,it was okay, you didn't have to
be sixteen to quit school. Soyou know, this was in the early
seventies, and so wake quit schooland got a job or so they would
(36:36):
they just go stay with a frienddon't not with them and things like that.
And then like the other kids thatwere a little bit older than me,
and the older ones that had lefthome too, but they were doing
things to me. So I wasgetting it from men and from my brothers
and sisters. No, did youever go to authorities on them? No?
(36:58):
I love my brothers and sisters,and I thought they've holped me too.
And I know that sounds crazy consideringwhat they were doing, but maybe
I just lopn't a very smart girlthat I loved them, so I thought
they've helped me too. Well,it's not that you were weren't smart.
It's just like you told me earlier, it's all you knew. And if
that's all you know is to beabused, molested, if that's all you've
(37:22):
ever known your whole life, thenthat's kind of what you expect other people
to do. And then when somebodycomes along and treat you with love and
kindness and compassion, then you're probablystumped. I mean, you're like,
wow, what's going on here?Are you okay? There? That's not
how people treat me, you know, which, I'm glad. I thank
God for you that you know youhave an amazing husband, you know,
(37:44):
and you're very fortunate that you havea loving and supportive husband, because a
lot of people who I think getabused and suffer these kind of things don't
find that man, that special manbecause they either don't trust the men or
they're just so broken that they justdon't recover, you know, they end
up on drugs or alcohol, oroverdosing on heroine or something. I mean,
(38:08):
these are the kind of things thatI learned about when I worked in
social services that that's typically what happens. They don't typically end up like you
where, you know, they don'tturn to those things and they find God
and they actually still managed to havesome type of faith in humanity, which
is something that I find really fascinatingabout you. I don't get it.
(38:28):
I mean I think if I wasyou, I would hate everything. And
for you to be so positive andto go to church, praise God and
just really lean on your faith,I mean that's I just find it such
a beautiful thing. I mean,it's very beautiful. I mean, I
consider myself a very faithful Christian follower, and I believe in treating people with
(38:49):
love and compassion. But see,I was raised that way. My parents
raised me with love and compassion.My parents taught me that that's how you
treat other people. They taught mybrothers that, so me and my brother
others are all like that. AndI taught my sons that way. So
we paid it forward. So itwas probably a little bit easier for me
to have faith in humanity and faithin God than it would be for say
(39:10):
you, who endured so much horrorin their life, and just to be
as strong as you've been. That'ssomething. It's strange because life with my
husband there was for some reason Iwas not afraid of him, and I
can I just I just knew that, I knew that there was something different,
(39:31):
but I was never afraid of him. And all throughout life, even
though everything was so bad, everynow and again it would be like these
little sweet things would happen that Iwould see, like vacation, Bible school.
Like I can remember walking to thislittle neighborhood for you know, a
(39:52):
mom and pop star, and Ican remember the owners just an old man
and an old woman and they wouldgive me a limon drop. But they
were my favorite, and they wouldgiven to me every time. I can't
remember being in high school in studyhall and for some reason a teacher bought
me a candy bar and smiled atme and give it to me. And
(40:12):
it may not seem like much toanybody, or people may say, well,
people would do that anyway, butit meant a whole lot to me.
It meant everything to me, becauseI think it's just that, yeah,
you have to I mean, theyare bad people, and most people
are bad, but that really aresome really good people in this world then
and now. I would say myparents were like that, and my grandparents,
(40:34):
I mean my grandparents were you know, they were married for like over
fifty years. They were they werehigh school sweethearts. And my grandfather,
he was a World War Two veteran, and you know, he's served in
the Navy. He was a pilot, and he was probably one of the
greatest men I've ever met in mywhole life. My grandfather was a strong,
strong, devout, faithful man inGod. I mean, he was
(40:58):
a devout Christian. He was nothypocrite. Everything that he said he did
he lived by. He wasn't thekind of guy to tell you not to
smoke and then he smoked a cigarette, or to tell you not to do
drugs and do drugs. When hesaid he something, he meant it.
My dad's the same way too.And then so I had two good role
models. And I watched how mygrandfather treated my grandmother, and I watched
how my dad treated my mom.And I've just seen these men just treat
(41:21):
these women so good, you know, when I always thought that that's just
how it was done, you know. So I've been fortunate to have good
role models. I feel like eventhough all of that, he even so
all that happened, and that wasthe weddings was I feel like I've gotten
more than what I deserved. Now, I've been blessed beyond measure, more
(41:44):
than I could have ever ever hopedto. Then that sounds really good.
That's I mean, I don't understandhow you feel that way, but well,
I mean I never had a boyfriend, you know, I never had
to go through that part of tryingto find somebody. It was literally like
God, just give me my I'sbeen just right in and there. I
mean, I was married right whenI was eighteen years old. We've been
(42:05):
married thirty one years. I knewit was right, he knew, we
just knew it was. It wasright. That when you know that person,
you just know it. And Iknew that it was from God,
and so why I am beyond blessedjust right there. And then you know
he's and he's a preacher, andso that's even a bigger blessing for me.
And I get to teach Sunday school, and that's even a bigger,
(42:27):
bigger blessing that I get to bearound them pretty little ladies all the time.
Unfortunately, most stories don't end likeyours, don't end the way yours
did. I mean, they mostof them do. Not yours is yours
is a very very rare and Iyou know, and that's why I told
you, I I hope that youreally truly appreciate everything that you have with
your husband, because what happens inyour situation is not the standard. It's
(42:52):
it's an anomaly. Actually. Butso, and let me ask you this
about your mom. Do you forgiveher or you stilt bitter or angry?
Yeah? I'm not better or angry, and I don't think I really ever
have been. I always loved herand I always wanted her to love me
back. But it was okay thatshe didn't. But I remember when she
(43:13):
died. I remember that car ridehome. I remember when she died and
I went into the room and shewas dead. Me and my husband went
in there, and she was bruisedbecause she had fallen from the heart attack,
so her face was completely bruised.She was swallowing. They had two
be down her throat and in herarms and in her hands, and everywhether
had her wrapped up bully in astrange way. And I just went to
(43:37):
her and I held her hand.It was hard to hold her hand with
all those poods and everything. ThatI held her hand and I kept kissing
her and I told her I lovedher, and I told her I just
wanted her to know that I wishshe could have known how much I love
her. And the car ride home, all I could think was, there's
nothing bigger than love. That nomatter how bad it is, no matter
(43:59):
how many someday he is, nomatter how much somebody hurts you, that
love is so much deeper and biggerthan that, that all could be forgiven
if they would just love you back. I love it, just love it
so so big that it can justforgive it all. So it sounds to
me like there really was nothing toforgive because you were never angry, so
you just loved her anyway, Therewas nothing to forgive, right I was
(44:22):
never angry with her. I wasreally never angry with anybody. Maybe I'm
an odd dect. I only don'tknow, but I was just not an
angry person. So if there's somebodyout there that listens to this and they're
going through the same thing, andthey're being you know, trafficked by a
parent or relative, or they're ina situation where they're being abused, you
(44:43):
know, mentally sexually, what wouldyou say to that person right now if
you knew and they were to talkto you or they listen to this,
what would you say to that person? I would say that person not to
blame God for any of it,because God's not doing any event, that
he loves you. And to alwaysfind the good in every situation, no
matter how bad things get, nomatter how bad things ever ever are,
(45:06):
look for something good and I don'tcare if it's just going outside and find
them a flower or anything, nomatter what it is. Find something.
And there are people out there thatare good people, so are beyond good
and try to find somebody. Andif that person doesn't listen to you,
or you're not comfortable, like ifyou start talking to him and then something
(45:28):
inside and he says, oh no, this isn't the person. Just don't
stop. Find somebody else. Andwhen you're teeny tiny, I know,
it's really hard because your world isso limited to home and school and that
is that's it. And a lotof times nowadays you're home school, but
you don't even get to good getout. But maybe maybe a neighbor or
maybe like when you go to thegrocery store and somebody a customer or somebody
(45:52):
who looks at this grocery store.The reason I even say grocery store is
because I meant and a woman andthey're older, they're like twenty years older
than me. But there's the sweetestpeople and they both looked at this grocery
store, at the big grocery store, and I talked to them one time,
and it would have been those wouldhave been the people to have told
(46:15):
if I if I ever would havetold, those would have been the people
that would have made a huge difference. But I would tell somebody they just
don't give up looking. You knowyou will find You'll find those people everywhere.
Absolutely everywhere, So you're definitely sayingthey should find somebody to tell.
They should find somebody to tell becausethe sinner the sinner that they can get
(46:38):
away from it, then you knowthe words they have to endure because it's
true what you say. I mean, a lot of people they're not going
to be okay for the rest oftheir lives. And I'm not saying that
I'm okay. I've got my youknow, I've got trouble in that way
too, but you just they justreally need to find somebody and not explain
God and just look something good.And every day I have been told I
(47:01):
have been called Thames like Mary Poppinsand Paullianna and all that stuff that that's
supposed to hurt or you know,if they said it to me in a
mean way, like you know,and it hurt my feelings, I guess
it did hurt my feelings. ButI am who I am, and well
that's what I've always done. I'vealways I've always found something to be thankful
(47:21):
for her, even even in theworst situations, in the worst places.
There's a I don't know if you'refamiliar with Casper ten Boom and his daughters,
they were in the concentration camp.Were you familiar with them? Hey,
well, his daughter Betsy and Coyten Boom there was in consication camp
and they had said while they wasthere, there's no pitzode, that God's
(47:45):
love is not deeper still and that'sthe truth. Sounds like some pretty good
words to live by. You saidthat you go through counseling or therapy.
Does that Does that help? Ijust started It was right before thank you
all, right before Thanksgiving. Soit's been about five months because I've missed
a couple of fashions for reasons thatwe had to take care of something.
(48:07):
But does it help? It's kindof maybe a little early to stay full.
I am seeing a woman therapist,and I feel like if you're a
girl, that's this to see awoman therapist's I mean, well it's beys
for me. I'll to say thatit's says and she's a Christian and she's
very she's very easy to talk to, and she works. She works with
(48:30):
you. And so if you canfind a fit therapays someone who talked to
and it takes their time with you. I mean she doesn't look at the
cloth sometimes I'm there two and threehours. Is it helping? I don't
know that. Like my husband willsay he seems a difference. People at
church that's called me that they've seemedsome difference in the lacking month. But
I'm more calm, more open,more not for myself so much, so
(48:53):
I guess I would have to saythat it does help. Okay, So
if other people are saying it,than probably it is. I think sometimes
talking about things helps. I thinkit does, and it's hard. It's
one of the hardest things you'll everhave to do is to have those words
come out of your mouse. Hopefullyyou're able to I guess I don't want
to say forget, because you'll neverbe able to forget, but hopefully this
(49:15):
experience will you'll understand the purpose ofwhy it happened, if there is a
purpose. I'm not one of thosekinds of people. I don't think.
I don't think there's a reason,Like I don't think there's a reason for
everything that happens. I think thereason sometimes is people's choices. And some
people are just the choice of saying, make are mean choices, and then
(49:36):
you get in that way of theirmen choices they do something to you.
Wow, I guess well, that'spretty much about all I really want to
ask, you know, so,I just want to say thanks for sharing
that with me. It's a definitelygive me a lot to think about.
Thank you, he who helped him
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