Be True To Your School: Analyzing the NFHS Participation Stats (Part 2) - Mat Stats 39

MatStats does its second annual assessment of HS wrestling numbers.  We analyze the participation numbers and growth of wrestling.  Part 1 deals with the National Federation of High School (NFHS) participation numbers over the years.  Part 2 analyzes the state survey and questionnaire that the NWCA sent to all 50 states.  A play on the Beach Boys famous song, MatStats is true to our schools' numbers and provides in depth analysis.

Slideshow for this Episode: https://almanac.mattalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/slideshow39.pdf


About Mat Stats
Welcome to the NWCA’s latest venture to help our favorite sport. Glenn Gormley, Jason Bryant and Kevin Hazard outline their effort to bring statistical analysis to wrestling. Mat Stats is the NWCA’s attempt to bring wrestling up to speed with so many other sports by incorporating stats. It is the same sport, the wrestlers are just older and better. 


Mat Stats by the NWCA is a monthly podcast by the National Wrestling Coaches Association Apple Podcasts | Spotify | iHeartRadio | Podcast Addict | Castbox | RSS

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Statistics. They can mean many things. It can be a
batting average, a win percentage, correlations, and standard deviation. But
numbers aren't just for nerds. In life, decisions need data.
In wrestling decisions, projections and hypotheticals also need data. Here

(00:24):
on MATT Stats, we take historical data, theories, and statistics
and apply it to the world's oldest and greatest sport.
Now to your trio of numerical nerd balls, Glenn Gormley,
Kevin Hazard, and Jason.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Bryant, and welcome back again to the MAT's That Show,
Episode thirty nine, as we continue our series into analyzing
the National Federation of High School State Association statistics. Hopefully
I'm the only one that has to say that that's
in FHS For those of you keeping track at home.
This is also in tandem with the NWCA survey again
our parent company. Last episode, we talked about the growth

(01:02):
rates boys and girls high school wrestling. One thing I
want to clarify. We talked about it briefly and it
was on a slide. Glenn had talked about high school
wrestling me in the eighth most popular sport. That was
in terms of total teams, in terms of individual participation.
We are still sixth. We reclaimed that we were five
for a long long time through the early nineties. Then

(01:23):
soccer caught us, and we'll talk about this a little bit.
Cross country caught us a little bit, and then post
COVID we came back and our numbers are back to
being six behind again those five, So I want to
clear that up. Also, we decided to do something a
little different. Kevin's fresh off a trip to what looks
like Kazakhstan. Now we got those hats in Kazakstan. I'm

(01:43):
getting geared up for husky hockey and wrestling this weekend
at Saint Cloud State. After coming off a trip to Iowa.
I got to announce Iowa Iowa State at Carver Hawkeye.
That was a thrill. And in Glenn is going, that's
the I'm guessing that's the two thousand and three hat
from Kansas City. If I remember that logo, that was
my second Nationals and that was twenty one years ago.

(02:04):
So he's going, poohbah. I'm going a little hockey for
my buddy. Andy the equipment manager saying clouds so we
can get off the shiny back to the shiny dome now,
so we decided to mix it up because headwear, like
we got wrestling shirts. We all have wrestling shirts like crazy.
I'm also a hat guy, and I'd say my Huskies

(02:24):
had some pretty solid, solid hats, and then the wrestling hats.
I might have fifty to sixty wrestling hats. So I
probably can do wrestling hat a day in not May
I need to do. Maybe I'll do a different hat
and a different shirt for wrestling shirt a day in May.
Maybe we can talk to Jim Dutrow. We can do stats,
a Matt Stats show about what he's done. He's also

(02:45):
a Virginia guy. But that's where we're at. We're leading
in episode thirty nine, continuing on Glenn, So I would
love to catch up on how you've been since last show.
But I got a feel that it wasn't that long ago.
So much changed in my lind So much has changed.
The only thing that's changes our hats and maybe our clothing.
You can probably read between the lines on that. So

(03:07):
as we start off every show, I'm gonna steal Glenn's
thunder on this one because it's fresh in the memory.
Be true to your school. I was a big school
school spirit guy in high school at one time. My
wrestling coach in high school, Billy Ruff, famously tells the
story about my involvement and when I got into wrestling.
He goes, when I found you, you were wearing a

(03:28):
basketball on your head. That is a true statement, because
in nineteen ninety six ninety seven, actually ninety five ninety
six was coach Rough's first year. Then ninety I got
into wrestling, and then I didn't come out for the
team until later that year. So that junior year was
coach Bob Baker's last year. Is our boys basketball coach,

(03:49):
and we're trying to drum up some support. So I
was actually a short lived mascot for the basketball team
that I believe went one in twenty two that year,
after we got beat by Nansman River High School by
eighty points. I had signs. I had an old jersey.
I had a basketball that was spray painted maroon and
gold with eyes cut out. I was that guy. I

(04:11):
was like, we've got we got I mean, we had
a lot of seniors that were pretty good year. At
least they' school me in open gym, so I figured
they've got to be pretty good, right. So I was a.
I briefly had a time as a mascot in high
school to try to drum up some school spirit. As
the sports enter of the newspaper. I was always trying
to drum up Okay, we've got We've got a big
game against you know, York coming up. We need everybody there.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
More.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
People would like go watch the fight in the parking lot,
then watch the football game. So I always try to
drum up the school spirit. So be true to your school, Glenn.
That is something that that I hold dear to my
heart because I'm also I was also very true to
that school in Norfolk, which was not true to sixty
years of alumni. And I now again we talk about
how are different hats. So Saint Cloud State, for example,

(04:54):
I got into with hockey with them. I'm also the
wrestling announcer now they've they've adopted me as one of
their own, even though I don't announce the Division two,
so I can have a little bit of a rooting
interest on how they do. I'm a hired gun there,
so I'm true true to my schools. They may not
be always true to some of us, but in this case,
I love the fact that you would be True to
your school is our theme here, because we're talking high school,
and who doesn't love the Beach Boys And exactly as

(05:17):
a kid, they were always on Full House for some reason.
They were there and they had the Kokomo song in
the nineties and then you know, I don't know, I
just I was always I was always fan of the
Beach Boys. Yeah, they've made a.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Good living singing fun songs.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
So anyway, we're fun, right, I mean they were fun
when Kevin had hair, and now you're a beach boy, Kevin,
you live at the beach down by the beach boy. Anyway,
we're having a lot of fun. We're going to get
right to the meat and potatoes of the matter, unlike
last show, which we spent twenty minutes talking about dicks
before we got to it. So we're going to go

(05:53):
through it. We will. I will actually save Glenn a
lot of time here other than I will let him
introduce his friends. Here we talk about high school before
we get through our rigamarole of our normal show. Prep.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Okay, what I'm just going to say, here's the glue
that hell tribe rustling together is now holding the glue
together for this Matt's that show.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Okay, yep, and our shoulders again, our table table of
contents here, as we know each show we've got that.
Why do we do it? Like I said, I'm going
to make sure we rifle through this again. The NWCA
the parent company of Matt Stats. Here we created Matt Stats.
Actually Glenn created a Matt Stats thing and then it
morphed into the show, which is a library. As always,

(06:33):
Glenn likes his Bruce Springsteen reference here, so I will
not take that from him. Glenn, you may you may
speak now.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
That's not a Bruce Springsteen. I feel like that's Bob.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Seeger, Bob Seger my bad. It was another old old
rocker from the seventies and still kind of you. You
just don't mess up the night moves.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, and of.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Course from the eighties. And of course our favorite glass
repair shop in New Yorktown, Virginia, Danny's Class eight six
seven five three oh nine, because uh, you know, Tommy
twotone had a thing, Glenn. The opinions expressed on the
show are not necessarily ours. Oh wait, they're hours. They're
just not the nbcas.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Correct, And it doesn't mean that Gormley, Brian, how's it
always agree with each other, which we need.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, you should hear the show calls before we start.
We're we are just like, I mean, I've got nothing
nice to say about these now we're kidding. Matter of fact, Kevin.
Kevin was super great in the last couple of weeks
sending My daughter had had a medical issue, and he
was sending cards and thank you, like and I'm sitting
there like, man, people still write letters and write write
things on cards. They don't just get a card and

(07:38):
sign him. So thank you for that. That was very
appreciated from from not just me and my daughter, but
my wife also appreciated it because she's still got family
members that do the handwritten Christmas notes too, so we've
got that.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
So Okay, that's first of all, we're happy that Jase's
with us, and we're even more happy than his daughter's
back in school. You know, stats at everyone else in
the rest of community's hearts go out to the Bryant
family and wishing their daughter continued success.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yep, she's back at school. I'm not going to go
into details on what it was, but let's just say
November was rough, but we're back. She's back in seventh grade.
And enjoying her friends happy uh y, Harry Potter, Pokemon
quiz Bowl. And yeah, she's a lot like her dad
in terms of the nerdy thing she's into. So love that.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, well, glad she's better. Okay. I wanted to just
flipped right down to episode ten. Now. Okay, about the
number of teams, and nothing has really changed since we
recorded the last show and the number of y Yeah,
it's still five hundred eight and Keystone. It would have
been better if Keystone would have dropped into five minute

(08:44):
break we talk, then something would have changed. Okay. So
there's five hundred eight men and women's teams. Okay, And
I'm going to read this again to you guys, because
this is an important thing in case you don't watch
the previous show. This is from the NCAA website on
their Sports Sponsorship and Participation Rates report. I quote this

(09:09):
between nineteen fifty six DOWSH fifty seven and eighty one
DOSH eighty two. Participation rates were collected in five year intervals.
The data for these years was not collected in the
same manner as the data from nineteen eighty two to
the president, and it includes recreational programs Therefore, these data

(09:33):
are not directly comparable to other data indust report. This
information is only meant to provide an historical view.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Okay, okay, So we're going to include the NCWA on
this show's collegiate update. The NWCA includes NCWA on their
website division sites tabs. The NCWA is one of three
collegiate wrestling national governing bodies to deal with four year colleges.

(10:04):
It was founded in nineteen ninety seven. In addition to
athletic departments, NCWA recognizes programs developed under alternative administrative bodies,
including student services and sports club departments. It's a misnomer
to believe that NCAA is a club sport. It is intercollegiate.

(10:24):
The C stands for collegiate, not club.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah. And one thing also to know about, Yes, there
are a lot the majority of the NCBWA is clubs. Now,
that doesn't mean they're all clubs, because there are very well.
There are funded varsity programs like the Newport News Apprentice School.
Le's use them for example, because I grew up in
the shadow of them. My mom worked at the shipyard
there for a long time, so I in intricate knowledge

(10:51):
of that program. They pay their athletes. Now in the
era of nil, who knows what's gonna happen now, But
they're a trade school and they pay their athletes. So
you're in school half of the year, you're at a
school out here. They don't qualify for NCAAA sponsorship. They're
not a junior college. They are not a four year
degree granting school, so the NAIA doesn't have them as
accountab opponent. But they're a varsity program, and they have
any varsity program for I want to say at least

(11:13):
seventy five years. So the NCWA has provided a place
for the apprentice school for junior colleges that maybe off
in the Netherland with no close teams or the USCAA. Yes,
small College Athletic Association. So there are varsity programs that
have no place to go, and this is where the
NCWA has provided an option for wrestling. So yes, C

(11:37):
stands for collegiate. C does not stand for club, even
though there are some really really good club programs Liberty
for example, really well funded club program that are one
of the juggernauts of the NCWA. So yes, it's a misnomer.
It's collegiate. It's a mashup of people that love the
sport of wrestling and they just want to compete. So
kudos to Jim in that group down there, been doing

(11:59):
it twenty five years.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
And now that we've learned what I just read about
the NCAA, about the way it's changed from previous to
nineteen eighty two, we don't know if they included recreational
programs or how many they did or whatnot. So why
matt status is now going to include the NCWA in
our numbers now. One thing I want to explain to

(12:24):
you guys. NCAA is National Collegiate Athletic Association. Nai A
is National Association Intercollegiate Athletics. Ncwa's National Collegiate Wrestling Association.
The national the collegiate or intercollegiate and n ai A.
It's the same word and association all the same. The

(12:45):
only difference is the one letter to say athletics because
they cover a lot of sports. Jim's organization only covers wrestling,
so it says w The NWCA has rules and regulation,
and much like the NCAA, you have to go through
a clearinghouse, okay, in order to be eligible. One of

(13:08):
the beauties of the NCWA. It has lower budget requirements.
The NAA NAIA motto is maximize your return in athletics.
The NCWA even goes a step further. And I want
to tell you the difference between the NCWA and the
majority of club stuff. Let's just say Gormes right now

(13:30):
was a PhD student of Tennessee. I'm not okay, but
if I was, I asked Jim this, I would not
be allowed to wrestle in the NCWA. He told me
because my eligibility was out in the seventies. It was
out in the eighties, not the seventies, Okay, but I
would be.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Allowed eighteen eighties, eighteen eighties.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
Yes, yes, I would be allowed to play on the
flag football you know, the stats program against the camp
program whatever. Okay. So it is a much higher level
than just what a lot of people are thinking of
his club wrestling. So with this being said, if you

(14:13):
add the NCWA to the normal slide, we're doing the end.
There are now four hundred and eighty one men's teams.
I did not double count the schools that are transitioning
into the NCAA, nor did I count the nine Trader
Juco teams. But I did count the schools for Puerto Rico,

(14:36):
because if we count Simon Fraser in Canada, we're sure
as extra count somebody for Puerto Rico, since Puerto Rico
is part of the country and Canada is just our
friendly neighbor to the north.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
And I looked this up today. So Jonavan Smith wrestled
at the World Championships for Puerto Rico. He's from California,
but he had a stop at Siritos in California at
to stop at Presbyterian, but he wrestled for what. I
was like, Caribbean, what is that? No, Oh, there's a
Caribbean University and I believe that is in Baiamon or
something like that. So the the NCWA took their nationals

(15:07):
to Puerto Rico one year and they have act. They've
got those colleges have teams within the n CWA, just
like in North of the border. Douglas College in Canada
also an n CWA team, more back in the day
than they were maybe because they might still currently compete,
but I know that's a school that's been in there.
So yeah, So there's there was n CWA representation at

(15:28):
the World Championships this year, so strange for those that
don't know it. Yeah, all right, Kevin, what do you got?

Speaker 4 (15:36):
All right? These are the glory days of collegiate wrestling.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Now that's a Bruce Springsteen song, I do know that.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
Or it's a restaurant.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
You know.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
N c w A was designed to fill in a
gap in the wrestling community, and it's you know, there
were cutbacks, et cetera. Jim saw not really an opportunity,
He saw a knee and he filled it and he's
helped us say they're more intercollegiate for your teams now

(16:08):
than ever men's and women's. Okay, now, let's start the show, Gormes.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
What Okay? The surveys Okay? Episode thirty nine is an
analysis of the n WCA surveys and questionnaires sent to
all fifty states. What we're trying to do here is
find out from the questions we asked on what's going
on and how we can help grow the sport. Okay.

(16:34):
On the boy's side, On Slide eighteen, you can see
there were six questions asked. Number one, this is all
for boys. Now do you run a state association sanctioned
individual boys tournament? Number two? How many divisions are there
in the boys individual state tournament. Number three, how many

(16:55):
weight classes? Number four do you keep scoring at the
individual boys state tournament? Number five do you run a
state sanctioned boys duel meet tournament? And number six? If
you do run a due meat tournament, when is it helped?
So to look at the first question about do you
have an individual state tournament, all fifty states do. So

(17:18):
we cannot say one state has more wrestlers or has
better growth because as a state tournament, since everyone has one,
we had to ask the question to make sure that
we found that out.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Well, Glenn, wouldn't that serve as a control? I guess
if everything is the same, if everything has an individual tournament,
wouldn't everything else other than that? Wouldn't that serve as
a control? If I understand how the scientific method and
statistics and all that work, I.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
Think I understand what you're saying, Jason. We couldn't say
whether having an individual state tournament helps or hurts the
sport because everyone has.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
It, right, gotcha? Okay? What I'm saying is like, if
we're comparing it to other things, wouldn't an individual state
tournament serve as the control factor? Like this is the
same across this is this is what does not change.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yes, but I guess
a way to put it would be if everyone was
six foot six inches tall in the basketball game, we
could not say whether height had any advantage in basketball because.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Everyone's gotcha all right.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Okay, and none of us on this show are six
to six.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
No, and I don't think Jason might be the only
one that's six foot.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I'm five ten and a half in shrinking.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Yeah, I used to say five eleven.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Last time it was five three quarters.

Speaker 5 (18:43):
So Kevin, all right, So, like we just said, all
fifty states have an individual state tournament, DC has a
boys and girls tournament, and.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Then we if we have that, we never need to
ask this question? Yet, what do we learn about the
number of divisions and its effect on wrestling growth?

Speaker 3 (19:06):
Okay, there is no correlation between the number of boys
participants in the number of divisions, nor is there for
population and divisions. The populations and division surprised me because
you would figure the largest states California, would have many
and the small estates, you know, Wyoming, would have a few.

(19:28):
So that is surprising to me on that. Now, with
the number of divisions. It runs, as you can see,
from one division to seven okay, two states. I didn't
get the proper answers for that conflicting answers in this,
so I didn't include the minute, okay, but you could

(19:50):
see there on slide twenty two that if you have
one division, how many states have that and the participation
growth rate? Okay, five only has three states five divisions
as three states states with six division or two states
with seven is one.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
So in other words, I had a question on this too.
So we're looking at this is only as good as
the data provided. So for example, Georgia, we know has
x amount of state term, but they also have two
private school divisions. So I guess some of the devils
in the details on how each state reported or how

(20:27):
the data was collected. So like Virginia has six public
school state championships, they have one private school. So that
is so in this case, is that a sixth state
or is that a seven state? Or is that kind
of a gray area with how we're looking at this.
Virginia's a six right here, Okay. So because it's it's
the VH, it's the state, it's the state association in

(20:48):
this case, so in some cases like Maryland, there's a
public school and an independent school, so we're going with
a Federation of High School State and that makes sense. ANAFHS.
This is the this is public's. Just to clarify that, yes,
because I'm in my new shaguy, I'm in details like
well what about that? So just if you're watching this,
I'm that guy that asked that question that the listener

(21:09):
just had to themselves like, wait, one state with seven? No,
I know of two or three? Now public there's one,
and I believe that answers Georgia corrects.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Okay, these answer is Georgia. And since there's so few
states with five, six or seven divisions, we can't analyze
anything with that because too small of a number can
throw everything off.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Okay, good, No, good to know, just to make sure
because I'm going to ask a stupid question, to make
sure nobody else is asking the stupid question.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
No problem at all. That's why we're here. So when
you go down to the states with one, okay, we
see that states with one only have a three point
three percent growth And in case you forgot it, we
had a growth rate for all boys of eight point three.
We said that on the last show. So that's below
our growth rate. But if you look at that once again,

(21:58):
there's only seven states with one California has a little
bit more than half of all the participants of all
states with one division. So as California goes, so goes
to one division, California happens to be I saw a
decrease of four point one percent. So we can't say
that one division is affecting anything because California just swamps

(22:24):
everything with their size.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay, yeahcause we're comparing a California to a Rhode Island
in a Kentucky and that's just not the same. Correct.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
There are similar numbers with states for two, three, and
four divisions. Okay, it does not make sense for states
with two and four to grow and three to not grow. Okay,
it has something to do with the states that select
all those things. Okay, let's not read into something that
isn't there. The states number of divisions have no effect

(23:01):
on participation numbers or growth.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
I want to touch on that for a second because
that there's been a really good explanation on that. Maybe
we'll bunt dump this into Kevin's Kevin's questions here, but
I'll lead off with this because I had a conversation
with Heath Slinger, the former coach at Chattanooga a while ago.
He's with a better way athletics now, and one of
the discussions we had is, I feel like sick for Virginia.

(23:24):
Let's use that where I grew up. I feel six
is too many. I feel six is too many individual
state championships. I feel the way New Jersey has it
is much more workable. One individual state championship, but there
are multiple classes for their dual meet state championships. They
don't keep a team score. We're going to get into
that portion here later. But He's point, which I didn't

(23:45):
necessarily even think about, is activity. It's a Remember not
everybody who wrestles in high school is trying to be
an elite Bo Bassett type. Some of theime, it's the
sport to keep them in shape for football, or it's
something to stay busy in the win time, or they're
just too short for basketball. They're just some schools have
all right, yeah, you got to play a sport like
so the opportunity to have an activity or a you know,

(24:08):
Al Bevilaqua used the word activity. It's an activity. It's
a sport, but it's something for kids to do. So
with you have a more equitable distribution of athletes. Well
maybe if you've only got x amount of teams you're
competing against that are similar size, it's not as hard
for those first and second year kids to get thrown
in too. The line, there's not as many lions to

(24:30):
get thrown to, so to speak, when you only when
you you've diluted the monsters across six versus having them
all and Okay, your first match you're gonna wrestle great Bridge.
Oh no, your first match you're gonna wrestle Lakeland. A
little bit easier to use two Virginia schools for example,
no disrespect to the Lakeland High School and in Suffolk. But
I feel, you know, the the barriered entry when there's

(24:52):
just when when the sport choose you up, you know,
I think about does that lead to the option for
for more growth, more kids involved, because hey, everybody can
be part of the team. You know, nobody really wants
to because nobody joins. It joins a sport to be
cut and be excluded because it's too hard. Wrestling is
inherently hard. So again, looking at the amount of divisions.

(25:14):
I kind of my opinion kind of changes, like, Okay,
I like divisions for duel meets. I like divisions for
getting large numbers of kids out because Okay, you've got
a lot of teams, you got a lot of competition
that's equitable size. So I guess I kind of struggle
with surprisingly that there's not a growth maybe not yet,
or correlation between number of classes and number of kids
coming out for teams based on the level of competition.

(25:36):
I guess that's also another factor to engage in.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
Yeah, and the one thing that I do know about
you talked about Virginia. The number of divisions is set
not by the coaches, it's set by the principles. And
I don't think that wrestling is really the deciding factor.
It's more sports like football, where you've got a school
of eight hundred and a school of three thousand. It's

(26:02):
much harder to put together, you know, a team, whether
you need twenty thirty minimum in a school of eight
hundred than you do in a in a school of
three thousand. So it's really set for more of the
larger sports. And we just you know, we're just you know,
in there. But but we're talking about that, let's just

(26:23):
go looking at the data. I think we let the
states decide the number of divisions at the boys individual
state tournaments, and again that's that's set by other factors,
not just including wrestlings. No statistical evidence on the number
of divisions affecting the growth road. There's no correlation between participation,

(26:43):
numbers of population and non divisions. Just let the states
determine the number there al SHO could be other logistical number.
Like we just talked about, principles are making that decision
that said, what have we learned about the number of
high school weight classes and growth rates?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, I'm curious on this one. And Glenn, before you
dive in one thing, I want to just finish up
with Kevin. Is the point we're looking at the size
of schools. You know, for example, in Pennsylvania, there's multiple
classes for football, but there's there's two classes for wrestling.
I wish states would not be so stump. You know,
in some state associations are flexible even even and I'm

(27:23):
going to point to the VHSL, the Virginia High School.
Again I haven't lived there in twenty years, but again
I still keep track with what's going on. My high
school is in the state high school semi finals in
Class two or Group two, whatever the heck they call
it now, and you know it's like, okay, they're you know,
six fifty seven hundred students versus you know the monster
schools with over two thousand. You know Robinson where you
know where your son Brian coached for for a long

(27:44):
long time. That's I think that's two thousand, just nine
through twelve, not counting. It's a secondary, so it's seven
through twelve. Not an equal playing field in terms of
some team sports. But when we look at the just
the states, like, why can't I hate a rich We're
six classes for basketball, we have to be six classes
for wrestling. Stop thinking like that. Different individual sports are

(28:07):
different than team sports. If you want to make it
a team sport, fine, keep your classes at six. Again,
this goes back to my like six classes and then
if your individual sport, fine, you don't you think it's
still a disparagement. Go to individual classes and six for publics. Like,
let's go with that. Stop I don't this is a rant.
Sorry it doesn't really quite fit in fire sound the alarms,

(28:27):
but like, stop being so rigid about one sport, one
size fits all for your sports, because that should not
be the case. Not all kids are built different. That's
why we have different sports. That's why in wrestling we
have different weight classes. So why put that square peg
in a round hole and apply everything to it. It
doesn't work. Anyway, Glenn, you can get me back on

(28:48):
track with some stats.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Nike, y'all get you back on tracks with the weight
classes of the forty eight states that answer the survey
on this. There's six states with thirteen weight classes, forty
one with fourteen, and one with fifteen. Okay, if you
just have one state with fifteen, you don't know what
it means at all, so you don't need enough to
analyze that.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
So we got you in New York. Yeah, New York's
got fifteen.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Oh I have been with thirteen.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Oh did they change too? Okay? So I remember Texas
had an extra weight class. New York had an extra
weight class for a long long time. So anyway, okay,
So so anyway where Glenn corrects me because I asked
the stupid question.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, So anyway, we analyzed the states with thirteen weight classes,
and there were six states. As we said before, that
hat it. Okay, the boys' high school growth was a
negative one point one percent, where the fourteen weight classes
was a positive nine point seven if you remember, the
overall was eight point three at that time frame. Okay,

(29:50):
so what do we know about these six states Michigan, Minnesota,
North Dakota, New Mexico, New York at Pa. Okay, that
have had these Okay, it really depends on the states
that we analyze there. There's not enough states with thirteen
to really make a judgment. It's once again, don't read

(30:12):
into something that's not there. It could be that those
states are states that were decreasing in their population number
regardless of the amount of weight classes they have, and
those states hoppen to choose thirteen. Okay, in the beginning
we said, you know, a correlation doesn't prove causation. Okay,

(30:34):
well on this just one. You know, one group of
six random schools decreasing doesn't mean it's the weight class
that's doing it.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
I want to go back to that side twenty six
er for a second, because I live in Minnesota and
we're one of those thirteen class states, and I went
to a couple of duel meets last year because the
school district. I'm gonna created an edit point there. Hold on,

(31:14):
flem went down them in here? All right, let me
strike that whole sentence over again. So I want to
go back to Minnesota here because obviously I live here
now and we're one of those damn it. Yeh double

(31:37):
farts spalding. All right, we're ready or am I ready?
That's the thing? All right? Take four. I want to
go back to Minnesota because I live here and we
were one of those states with thirteen. I went to
a what the hold on? Yeah, Glenn, you dropped out.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah, you froze up, so I reloaded.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
No, I didn't freeze up. I was holding. Oh yeah, okay.
Take six, I want to go back to Minnesota here.
I'm gonna go back to slide twenty six because we're
one of those states and I live here now. I've
mentioned to Virginia a lot, but I'm in Minnesota now.
For those who weren't aware, we're one of those thirteen
weight classes. I went to a couple of duel meets

(32:23):
last year. The school district I'm in Mounds View High
School was a really really good team. They won the section.
They were in the state tournament got past that blockade
that was still Water High School and the thirteen weights,
and I'm sitting there watching it. I'm looking and first
thing I had to do was remember what they were
because there and thankfully Mounds View High School had the
weight classes and one of the school boards where all
the weights were up on the screen. And the first

(32:43):
time I walk in there and it was the neighborhood
battle Moundsview and Irondale. This is the school I'm zoned
for with the two high schools in the school district.
And I looked at I'm like, okay, wait, one O seven.
I had to figure out what they were and then
all of a sudden, okay, that's now we have got
three or four different sets of weight classes nationally. But
I'm looking at it and I'm like, I wasn't sure
if I liked it, and I know it mounds to you.

(33:04):
They had a lot of big guys and they lost
a big guy weight class, so they had kids kind
of shift around and it was kind of a it
was kind of a you know, I don't know if
I like it or not. It really was kind of lukewarm,
and the one thing I liked about it immediately was
dual meets. If you're doing a dual meet, there's number
one criteria, most matches, one problem solved, seven versus six

(33:25):
if it ends in a tie. Easy. I love that
because nobody likes one to criteria Q, which is which
is play Tiddley winks to figure out who wins? Then Z,
I think is the coin toss. So the surprising number
to me to get to my point is the fact
that the numbers are down from you know, with ten years,
and as like, is that a weight class? Thing? Is that?

(33:47):
Is that the rise of other sports is? What is
the difference in Minnesota? Granted, kind of hard to tell
from one year to the next with the thirteen weights,
because this is a wrestling state. There's a ton of
wrestlers here. We have a lot of co ops. This
may also be a thing where schools are combining and
the numbers may look different one school reporting one school not.
So I'm curious if co ops work there. That's another tangent.

(34:08):
But as far as one year to the next, I
like thirteen. At one point, you know you're looking like, well,
you're losing opportunities for kids. Well, there's nothing wrong with
being JV we need to bring back JV teams too.
Just because you're not starting doesn't mean you can't compete
in the sport. Another another tangent. So look at the
thirteen from a from a first hand perspective. Didn't hate it,

(34:28):
didn't hate it again, probably lukewarm to it. But you know,
logically you think, oh, one less weight class means one
less participant times x amount of schools theoretically, but I
don't know, Glenn, what's the day to tell you?

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Well, the data tells me that there's a couple states there,
Minnesota being one where Jason lives. You know, that happens
to be down thirteen percent. In New York that happens
to be down fifteen percent. Ist my theory is on this,
if you were to bump Minnesota and New York to
fourteen weights, they would still be down by that much, okay,

(35:02):
And then all of a sudden, the thirteen thing will
look good. That would look bigger than the fourteen of
people we'd be sitting here saying should we go from
fourteen to thirteen? I think it's a factor of states
happy to choose out and they were down right, Kevin,
all right?

Speaker 4 (35:19):
So that said Let's let the states decide how many
weight classes they have at their individual state tournaments. They're
not enough states with thirteen weight classes definitively saved that
the number of weight classes affects the growth rates. Like
you said, you moved two over from thirteen to fourteen,
it changes the numbers completely. Let the states decide, and

(35:41):
again going back to the questionnaire, what do we learn
about keeping a team score at the individual state tournament
and how that affected numbers?

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Okay, the team score is the most interesting thing I
dove into. Okay, no individual team score kept eight states. Okay,
their growth rate was negative four individual team score capta.
The forty states that responded to this, their growth rate
was plus twelve. Okay, so that looks like and once

(36:10):
again eight point three is the overall thing. So this
does lead me to believe what's going on here. Okay, Now,
if you look at the next slide, with this slide thirty,
there with the eight states that do not keep score Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Jersey,
New York, South Carolina, Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Okay, it's across the board in terms of its participation rank.
First thing that jumps out at me, you have a three,
have a twenty five, you have a six to seven
and eighteen. So they're all in the top twenty five.
But yes, it's going across that top half.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
The state participation numbers in the top half the state
growth numbers are thirty four and a half. They're all
on the bottom half. Thirty four and a half was
the mean, okay, and they actually shrank there. So what
do we learn from this? Okay? So I dove deeper
into the states that did this, okay, because this is

(37:06):
a big time conundrum. Okay, if you look at slight
thirty two, Okay, we would have to It really depends
on what states you choose on whether they keep score
or not. Okay, if we were control for some of

(37:28):
these states, some of these big states that have been
around for a while that are shrinking New York, Minnesota. O.
Pause a second there, pause, Yeah, I'm okay. I was

(38:05):
just trying to figure something out. Okay, I got it.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
We'll go back start thirty two over again. Yes, Okay,
go for it.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Okay. There's eight states that do not keep score at
their individual state tournament. Okay, so their growth rate was down,
like we said, a little bit over four percent down.
Why are these eight states down and why is the
number down? Okay, if you would control for some of

(38:41):
these states that have a big decrease, it would be
really difficult to say whether or not keeping team scores
really affects this thing. Okay, but we have a decrease.
In this situation, we cannot ignore these eight states. We
need to dive deeper in to why these eight states

(39:02):
do not keep scoring. I don't know what the reason is,
but in the questionnaire for next year, we need to
ask them some questions. It could just be logistics, or
we do it with a dual meet tournament and decide
our state champion. It could be a lot of different reasons.
But these are eight Seven of these state states are

(39:23):
really mature. Great states are wrestling Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Jersey,
New York, Wisconsin. South Carolina is the only new guy
in the game. So there's something going on with those states,
and I would like to know if this has anything
to do with it. Just as an old wrestler and

(39:44):
old wrestling coach, it would be surprising to me if
that really affected participation numbers. Because we've talked many times
about Brian Hazard's team Robinson, they had a chance to
win the state title, and oftentimes most sites have most
high schools have no chance to win it. So I

(40:05):
don't know, Kevin Jason, what are your thoughts on this.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
I'm always a I think the team score matters. But
the problem is the team score doesn't matter. I've realized
I said. It's a complete contradiction what I said. But
I am a fan of the dual meet determining your
state title at the high school level because of equitable
school sizes. So in Minnesota, I've been to the state

(40:29):
tournament a couple of times, usually when I buy a
ticket because the state Association doesn't like to credential meother
topic entirely. But they do the state tournament Thursday, the
team states Thursday, then Friday Saturday is the individual tournament.
Makes for a long weekend at the Axcel Energy Center,
which is a great place to watch hockey, it's a
great place to watch wrestling. Is a great facility. But

(40:51):
they determine the team champions by dual meets and if
there is a tie. If there is a tie in
the finals, there is no criteria, You're co champion. So
the one thing I love about the dual meet state
tournament aspect is you've got your whole town Pera, Minnesota, Pikestone, Minnesota.
These out they call it out state if you don't

(41:11):
live in the Twin Cities, anything outside these outstate towns. Peers.
They bring these teams, the busloads and bus loads of fans,
last one out of town, turn off the light. Kind
of place. That's high school sports to me. And you
bring that energy to an arena that to me is
is I think better for growth because then you've got
the kid who's watching a dual meet going to watch
this buddy wrestle. I'm going to come out for the

(41:33):
team next year, or the you know, the girls like oh,
I want to wrestle now, Like you have an opportunity,
I think to be a team. When you're an individual,
when you're a team. There is an I in team
in wrestling because we've learned like you can have three
guys win a state title in place in the top five,
So what where's the team? Okay, you could be zero
to twenty six and dual meets with three wrestlers and

(41:56):
place top five of a team. From a sports minded logic,
that doesn't seem to make sense. And so I hate
team scoring in a tournament format because I feel it's
extremely arbitrary and it's always one of those rules that
it's like, well, that's because we've always done I feel
if again, equitable school sizes at high school sports give
you duel meets that are put school versus school, town

(42:16):
versus town, it's inherently more sporting surrounded by an individual
combat sport, which is hand to hand man like the
best part about wrestling and the best part of a
team sport. Then you still get the cherry on top.
You get the best individual gets determined they're the best
wrestler in the state, regardless of whether they're from Pipestone,
Minnesota or they're from Saint Paul. So that opportunity to

(42:39):
like the team score, you can't even keep it by
yourself in the stands. And I've made this argument with
the NCAA Championships. You can keep your own team score,
but can you keep sixty other teams scores simultaneously. You
need a computer. It's you cannot do it as a
general fan of the sport. You cannot score it. Okay, Okay,
we got three for that. Okay, we got plus two

(43:01):
advancement plus one and a half for the tech fall. Okay,
what did Apple Valley got? What SHOCKAPI got? What? What about?
You know? You know what about more Head? You know
it's you can't keep track of everybody else's scores, But
in the duel meet, you've got two teams to worry about.
So I don't really care about an individual state team
score at a state tournament because you know, you can

(43:24):
have five guys and win a state title. That's not
that's there's fourteen way classes. You've got a third of
a team, and you can win a team. So that's
my rant on team scoring.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
I tend to agree.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
But the only thing I I would do different I
wouldn't run them all on the same weekend. I think
that's that's top fair to the teams that have the
kids that are on real good teams. They've they've had
to wrestle a couple of matches, they take a chance
of injury, they're more tired. It's a mental thing to

(43:56):
try and stay up for that and then go right
into an individual turn I think would be it's not beneficial.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, And I always had that problem where they've basically,
you know, they've had state tournament teams where it's like
we're going to wrestle our B team in the in
the state duels, for example. One thing I do like
that Minnesota does with their duel meets. Though you can't
forfeit and bump away from studs. You've got to put
a body there. So if you I was at a
sexual tournament here a couple years ago when I learned
this rule right down the block at Ta Tino Grace,

(44:25):
you don't forfeit. If you forfeit it's say at one
forty five or whatever the way class is now that round,
you're forfeiting that for the next, the next round, the
rest of the day. That's so you've got to put
a body out there that you can bump your lineup around.
But you're not going to give a forfeit. You're not
going to feed a forfeit to their to their their
stud You've got to feed a body there or else

(44:46):
you're forfeiting the rest of the way. I like that
to make sure you're putting bodies out there. So that's
another thing too. It also helps you call them the
high schools and get better better team rosters because you
need depth.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yeah, it's interesting. I never heard that one before.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
A little tangent. Damn.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Sorry, that's okay, moving on too, So well, we'll move
on to slide thirty four. Here about the dual meet
state championships. Okay, there's twenty one states that have a
dual meat tournament and twenty nine that do not. Okay.
The number of the participation growth for the dual meat

(45:27):
tournament side is five percent and eleven percent for no duel. Okay,
So in other words, it looks like the no duel
is the better road to take. However, if we control
for Illinois, Minnesota, New York, which we've learned earlier are
states that are that are shrinking, Okay, the growth rate

(45:48):
for the remaining eighteen states would be plus thirteen. If
we include the control for California and that the growth
rate is twenty So this is what I really dove into.
Also with the team scoring. So there's a lot to
interpret from this analysis. But really what does it mean? Okay,

(46:15):
because once again we go back to the states. If
you have a statistic, if you give a statistician enough
time is slight thirty six, Okay, they can tell you anything.
How do you think we created the mythical clutch hitting
stat in baseball. It's a completely made up stat where
there's just arbitrary terms for what determines clutch hitting and

(46:37):
what does it okay liars, damn liars and statisticians. So
having a dual meet state tournament could be a state
by state tradition decision based on tradition budget, travel season
being too long. Heck, Minnesota might do it right in
the same weekend because of a travel budget. I don't know,
you know, there's so many moving parts that we cannot

(47:02):
definitively say if howv a state duel meet tournament affects
the numbers.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
I have another caveat to dive into, too, is the
bracket styles. Minnesota is still archaic and it does not
do full wrestle backs. You you're it's still got the
first round, lose the first round. If you you lose
a match, the guy who beat you, guy or girl
that beat you has to win their next match. You still,

(47:28):
in this day and age, have zero to one participants
at a state tournament. To me, that to me is
the one of the dumbest things. If you're gonna wrestle
that way, like dude, you need full wrestle backs. You
need be full. Every year you get the state champ
and he gets upset. Sorry, your whole season's done. I
hate that. That's another thing maybe is looking into potential

(47:50):
growth is how how the individual brackets are done. New
Jersey's got this giant bracket, California's got this giant bracket. Well,
then Virginia's got a twelve man bracket in class one,
in class two, and then they've got a six team
man bracket in three, four, five, and six. So something
to look at potentially moving forward.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Okay, slight thirty seven.

Speaker 4 (48:13):
All right, So looking at the data, it sounds like
listening to you, Glenn. There are some that you can
you can look at the statistics, but there are so
many other factors that we really don't know if it
has an effect on the growth, and we don't know
what the driving force is. So let the states decide

(48:36):
and what do we learn in what? But now, what
do we learn about when the states have have their
dual meat turning?

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Okay, twenty one states have a dualty tournament. We talked
about only two out of this dual meat tournament after
the individual tournament, so we cannot determine anything by the
timing of when they have their dualmy tournament, if it
affects growth or not. Because there's only two states, it's
too small of a window. Okay, Kevin slide forty Okay.

Speaker 4 (49:15):
So, to summarize matsite recommendations from the Boys High School questionnaire,
all states have an individual state tournament. Let the states
decide how many divisions they have. Let the states decide
how many weight classes they have. We really need to
do a follow up questionnaire in twenty twenty five on
the states that do not keep team scores at their

(49:37):
individual state tournaments to find out, you know, if there
are other reasons. There are too many moving parts on
the dual meet tournament to say if they're having if
it helps or hurts the growth in these states. In
our follow up questionnaire for twenty twenty five, we need
to find out how long before the individual tournament the
dual tournament is about the boys. Now, let's go examine

(50:02):
the girls questionnaire.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Okay, and just so I review this. What I talked
about in the last show, Girls is a growth business.
Boys is a mature business. That does not mean physical
emotional maturation means length of time that sport's been around.
There are seven questions on the girl's side. The last
six are identical to the six on the boys, but
the first one is are girls permitted to wrestle boys

(50:27):
in your state? Okay, so let's start out with that. Okay.
There's three categories in this classification. One is girls always
wrestle girls, next as girls must wressell must wrestle girls
starting at the states, and the third one is girls
can wrestle boys anytime. The being number of participants in

(50:49):
the states are much higher with the girls wrestling girls
than they are when girls can wrestle boys anytime. Okay,
the number of states that have girls versus girls are
always is twenty girls versus girls. On the state's ten
girls can wrestle boys anytime twenty. The mean state participation

(51:13):
rank is much better for girls at wressel girls. Despite
when girls always wrestle girls, the mean population rank is
higher than when girls can wrestle girls. Girls can wrestle
boys at any time. So by that theory, it's not

(51:33):
so much a state with a low population that you
can't find enough girls of rustled girls. But it's difficult
to tell with that. Okay, we learned in part one
of this topic that the correlation between girls participants and
the state population is very strong at point eight and
the but not as strong as the boys at point nine.

(51:56):
Does this explain the difference in correlation? Is it because
states that do not allow girls to wrestle have Russell
boys have more participants? It's possible, Okay, do states allow
girls to wrestle boys due to lack of numbers or
the lack of numbers due to that they allow girls
to wrestle boys. It's a chicken or egg argument. You know.

(52:22):
Does somebody out there as a young daughter that wants
to wrestle do you want of Russell boys? Does the
girl one of Russell boys? I don't know. I mean aws,
We're getting more and more numbers in our sport, girls
numbers in our sport. I'm all for pushing states to
have girls versus girls only. Okay, of the top ten

(52:48):
states with a number of four year women's collegiate teams
only to allow girls to wrestle boys at any time,
Michigan and New York. So it it does seem that
these states are going in this direction. Because we looked
at it in the previous part one of this show,
and there is a moderate correlation between the number of

(53:10):
girls high school participants and the number of four year
colleges have girls where boys there's none whatsoever. So my
thoughts on there is, Karen, see what you got from by.

Speaker 4 (53:27):
I think what you say is girls need to wrestle girls,
and it sure seems we should emphasize girls only wrestling girls.
And I think you're starting to see that as because
as you get more girls into wrestling, there are more
opportunities for matches. I know, twenty years ago when you

(53:49):
saw a girl wrestle, there weren't girls teams and they'd
have to make the boys lineup to get out and wrestle.
As the numbers have increased and every and I'm I
guarantee we go through the numbers, every state that now
has better numbers, there's more opportunity for girls just wrestling girls.
That said, what do we learn about girls running an

(54:11):
individual state tournament and those growth rates?

Speaker 3 (54:15):
Okay? Much like on the boy's side. Forty five states
now have a girls individual state tournament, with the boys
of all fifty, So we can't really say whether having
the state individual tournament helps the numbers or not. But
last year when we did this show we are showing
women's we looked into see this on slide forty nine

(54:35):
on after the state sanctions the growth rate. So in
other words, right after the state sanctioned within a year, okay,
you saw almost what was it? All the states had
the state tournament within a year after that. Okay, So

(54:55):
when you look at the numbers that are increasing, they
increase four more what's the state sanctioned and as an
individual state tournament than they did before that. Okay. Now
with that, I learned something really interesting when I was

(55:16):
talking to Loriers about this about it really depends on
what your definition of sanctioning is. Okay. I always thought
there was a firm sanctioning thing. Laurie's told me that
in some of the states, they've already been sanctioned the
sport and they just add women section of the tournament.

(55:38):
Just like there's a boys and girls volleyball. We already
had wrestling sanctioned, we just added a boy's division. So
that's what happens in some of these states. So it's
not more of a thorough process that hey, please add
a girl's division, or we'll call our attorney and then
you're going to add it anyway. Okay, So I'm not

(55:59):
so sure everyone uses the term sanction, you know, and
if you want to hear really something that spurred from
this conversation with Lori. This is what made me look
into the NCWA and exactly what it is and what
those letters stand for and why they should be included
at are thing to include the NCAA and NAI.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Yeah, and one thing also to look at is sanctioned.
PA was a buzzword. It was a hashtag because Pennsylvania
had made the point that the PIAA was not going
to sanction girls high school wresting until they had one
hundred programs commit or start teams. So that was one
whereas the Iowa Girls High School Athletic Union it was
like okay, we got a number, boom, We're It's like

(56:45):
they had to hit certain benchmarks. So's there's benchmarks and
then there's like, as you said to your conversation with Lori,
like all right, well just okay, we're girls are good.
Just add the section rule book like there it's some
states are so rigid. And then Virginia still listening as
an emerging sport because again I've beaten the VHSL up
for probably twenty years at this point, So what's another

(57:05):
another ten seconds? Because the VHSL is slow to act on,
you know, the culture of sports. It's you know, so anyway,
you're right, it does vary. And what the VHSL thinks
is sanctioning. It might be good enough for them, whereas
for rational wrestling people it isn't. So there's my last
singer across the board at the VHSL.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
It's interesting, Jason, because, as I said earlier, thirty six
states at a girls state tournament one year or less
after sanctioning. So you know, maybe it came about with
different reasons, but I'm all for the every state, fifty
states plus DC having girls wrestling having girls tournament.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Well I'm just wondering, like so, and here's another point. Well,
you can't have until you have this many. What's stopping you?
You gotta start, You crawl before you can walk, okay,
because one one year you have eight in a weight class,
and then you have maybe sixteen at another and twenty
four to another, or you gotta wait till you get
all twenty four field for example. Like that doesn't make
any sense. You need to you know, you show the

(58:01):
opportunity exists, it's like, okay, oh you know it's again.
They may see a chicken and egg. We're like, no,
give them the opportunity. Let's put it out there. Sanctioned
the thing, then it will fill up. That's how it's
gonna work. That's how it's shown to work. Your stats
validate this. The growth of numbers once you've had a tournament,
boom explode. Start the dang tournament.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Yes, slide fifty two, Kevin.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
There we go, Hey, we'll come. Didn't I just where
are we just talking about that before the show?

Speaker 4 (58:35):
Haven't just said it's no surprise that once the states
gets sanctioned that has an individual state tournament is extreme growth.
We talked about Virginia. They had an unofficial tournament. I
don't remember what year it was, they had one hundred
plus girls. The next year, with the emerging sports status,
they had an official state tournament. They'd have thirty forty

(58:57):
girls in a weight class. They was explosive growth the
next year and to the point where I think they're
going to have to maybe right now it's a one
tournament for all all divisions. As it grows, you're going
to see that divide up into the divisions. Like the boys,
it's the world, it's oldest and greatest sport. We ignored

(59:21):
women for way too long. We can't change it, but
we are changing the future. So we just talked a
little bit about it. What do we learn about the
number of divisions and weight classes and girls individual states
and how that affects growth?

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Okay, just like on the boys side, let the states
make their own decisions a number of divisions and weight classes.
The data for the number of divisions and weight classes
is far too new for girls to really draw any conclusions.
So we just go, you know, with what we said before,
and on a part of the sport that's more established,
boys wrestling, and just follow that lead.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Let the states decide, and just like with the boys,
let the states decide on how many divisions they you know,
the girls have for in wrestling. That said, what do
we learned from if they keep score at the state
individual tournaments, if they have a dual meat tournament, and
if they do, when is the dual meat tournament?

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Okay, only ten states do not keep score at their
individual state tournament for girls, and only four have a
dual meat tournament. So we cannot say anything about the
dual meat tournament affecting it because there aren't enough of
them yet, so it doesn't matter whether it's before after
if there's only four. Okay, what we said was, let

(01:00:48):
the states decide. We wanted to ask some more questions
about why states don't keep score. I'm sure it's the
same thing like these states don't keep it boys girls
and some other situations and decide what their duel meet
tournament and all that stuff. But this, in my mind,
this is a state by state issue. We don't have
any numbers in there to definitively say.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
I love the quotes. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Is that Reagan? We are on the ground no politics, Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
For the difference.

Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
We are on the ground floor of women's Russian We
have huge growth. Just enjoy it. Gorman believes we should
stress girls, rest girls wrestling girls. The answer to the
last sex questions, all the state girls questionnaire, is let
the states decide. Joy the ride. We spent enough time
on the boy's side on this two part topic. Give

(01:01:51):
us some other news on the women for balance.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Okay, Now, the next lide we have on here is
women's participation numbers from eighty one, eighty two to twenty
three twenty four in the nc DOUBLEA, and you can
see all the growth that's happening in women's sports. Okay.
Obviously wrestling is on the ground floor of this in
the NCUBA level. Okay, Then if you look at the

(01:02:20):
number of high school participants, all right, if you remember,
for the last show, wrestling has sixty fourth women. It's
above field hockey, about to pass indoor track and golf
here soon and most likely lacrosse in a couple of years.
If you look at that and the divide that by
the number of teams nc double A teams, Okay, you

(01:02:44):
have a ratio here. Okay, which wrestling? I have two
numbers for it on slide sixty one. Eight hundred and
forty six is with all the teams that were active,
and six oh one is the announced women's wrestling. If
you put aside Spirit that does have any NCAA teams,
women's wrestling has by far the highest ratio of high

(01:03:09):
school participants over NCUBA teams. I remember back when I
was dealing with some of the alumni from Lehigh, and
the rumor was that people inside LEI said there's not
enough girls wrestlers, but they have a rowing team which
is on the bottom of this. So my conclusion to

(01:03:31):
this is wrestling is going to continue to grow. Women's wrestling.
I am saying within ten years and we're all still
be on this show in ten years. I'm not punching
out anytime soon. Okay, in ten years, there will be
more n Cuba women's wrestling teams than there are Division

(01:03:52):
one football teams right now. That's Division one and one
double A combined inter factor's almost as many women's teams
as there are what A football teams right now, there's
one hundred and thirty four one A football teams on
hundred and seventy wrestling. So that's what I'm saying on this.

(01:04:14):
We talked. I just wanted to put a good note
on there and put some extra stuff about women in
there to make the women feel good that we have
balanced time. Here.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
I got something for that. If you want to throw
some balance time, here's something I want to look at you.
And we've touched on this. Every time we talk about
women's wrestling, we talk about the growth of women's wrestling
and supporting women's wrestling. So I went back and looked
at the high school stats from the NFHS, and let's
use some increments here. So let's start nineteen seventy, and
I'm going to bring my my notebook into in the
frame and not in the frame here, but I'll read

(01:04:44):
off so I'm not looking down nineteen seventy. I'm going
to compare three sports. I'm going to look at the
growth rates. Actually, I got a couple sports, So girls soccer.
Let's look at girls soccer nineteen seventy one, seven hundred
high school participants nation, and why boy soccer nineteen seventy
when they first started to track it, forty nine thousand.

(01:05:04):
Let's jump ahead twenty years, girl soccer one hundred and
eleven thousand, boys up to two hundred and twenty thousand,
twenty more years. Boy soccer has since passed wrestling as
the sixth most popular of the fifth most popular boy sport,
boy soccer three hundred and ninety one thousand plus girl

(01:05:24):
soccer three hundred and fifty six thousand plus twenty twenty
four boy soccer for sixty seven. That's thousands girls, three
hundred and eighty three. Boy soccer and girl soccer grew
together at the high school level. Granted, boys were ahead,
but when it came to the mid nineties, you started

(01:05:45):
getting a lot more girl soccer teams. And that's you know,
I graduated high school in nineteen ninety seven. We started
a girl soccer team that year. So that's twenty seven
years ago. That's still a twenty something seventeen eighteen year
head start on where a lot of these women's college
teams came from. Now other sports that you know, we
look at the numbers like, oh, why aren't we doing this?
And are other sports taken away from us? Let's look

(01:06:07):
at lacrosse on just the boys side nineteen seventy twenty
seven hundred nationwide twenty twenty four, one hundred and fifteen thousand,
so and boys and girls lacrosse growing together, boys and
girls soccer growing together. The fact they're outdoor sports. I
don't know if there's a correlation to that, Glinn, but

(01:06:28):
girls wrestling went from one hundred and twelve in nineteen
ninety that's a nine that is, nineteen ninety to six thousand,
one hundred and thirty four twenty years later. So there
was a growth of six thousand athletes in twenty years.
In the fourteen years since that sixty four thousand plus

(01:06:53):
girls wrestling twenty three, twenty four, So in one ten
year span there was a gain of six thousand. On
fourteen year span, there was a gain of almost sixty thousand.
Look what happens and look at the boys participation wrestling.
It grew from two hundred to from two hundred and
thirty three thousand in nineteen ninety to two hundred and

(01:07:13):
seventy two thousand in twenty ten to two hundred and
ninety one thousand. This we need to maybe correl like
this to be statistically significant. We finally got behind girls
wrestling as a sport. Girls wrestling, boys wrestling growing together,
Boys lacrosse, girls lacrosse growing together, boys soccer, girls soccer

(01:07:34):
growing together. That's the key. That is why our growth
is happening because we're doing it as a community, not
as boys versus girls. You got them together. Our growth
numbers are going up. I don't need a stat to
tell me that that's statistically significant. Hey man, do what
you said, Jason, It's just just logic. It's just logic.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
It's a lot easier to grow together.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
And if again, if we would have been behind it
in nineteen ninety. Who knows where our numbers would be.
We were just you know, we our own worst enemy
sometimes and we have to know that and again to
know our history. We are not going to make the
mistakes of the past by gatekeeping the access to our
sport from anybody. So that's that's what I love about it.

(01:08:23):
So we've seen it. We're just too late. We're too late.
We're so far behind. We're making great gains, but we
still need to make sure. Hey, we need to know
we didn't do things right thirty years ago. Now we're
trying to right those wrongs.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
I appreciate you bringing that up, especially the time frame
nineteen ninety because my last year coaching was right then,
was eighty nine. And you know I fought them that
that school in Wallingsburg dropping our team. Then a couple
of years after that, I never even thought of the
women's angle, okay, and then once that hit me after that,
I said, this, this is what we need in this sport.

(01:08:58):
You know, it's not only the right thing to do.
I have opportunity for girls, but it's what the boys
need too. And I was one of those people that
dropped the ball that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
You know, I'll point to what Terry Steiner said, the
sport is great, why why hold it back from fifty
percent of the population. So, you know, there's some people
that are that are under I get, I get your
traditional gender roles and your your you know, you know
this combat sports aren't for women. Well that thinking is gone,
So move or get run over. That's kind of what

(01:09:28):
we're at because you know, sticking to those guns caused
us to get to where we were with when when
one's not participating, the other one's tanking. When they're both participating,
they're both growing. Yeah, how can you not see that anyway?

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, Slide sixty three, Kevin.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
I've got a lot of rants these last two shows.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Yeah, so we're.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
I realized that we are a blue ribbon consulting group,
even if we do go on rants once in a while. Garbs,
I remember you telling me that in an NBA school,
you learn the answer to a question on a test.
Can't be hire a blue ribbon consulting group. We Matt
Stats are here to answer these questions. We need to

(01:10:17):
ask additional questions to help us solve the riddle on
why some states grow and others do not. And like
we said in our last show, if you've got answers
or you know why your state's growing, you know, get
back to us. Matt Stats is in the process of
formulate the best questions to provide answers from the states
that can help us grow our sports, and our follow

(01:10:39):
up Matt Stats show in twenty twenty five will provide
you the analysis of what we found from the data
that we do collect.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Yeah, one thing, thank you for that rob up, Kevin.
One thing I want to say before we get to
the catch notes is, you know I was saying I
was part of that problem in the late eighties and
nineties where we didn't do it. But I want to
get across to my you know, capatriots of that generation.
I'll see a bunch of the here soon at the nationals.
Is the sport is in good shape. Right now, there's

(01:11:08):
more high school boys than ever, more high school girls
than ever, more NCAA women than ever, more NCAA men,
most likely than ever, at least it's eighty two. The
sport is in good shape. Okay, so let's here are
the keV notes for this show.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
To the keV Notes, we go onto the keV notes
note number one.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
As of the end of November, they're five hundred and
eight NCAA NAI four your college teams, and if you
include the NCWA, there's seven hundred and fourteen men's and
women's four year college programs. And that goes to what
Glenn's just saying, we are in great state as a sport. Two.
Matt Stats believed we should continue to let the states

(01:11:50):
aside on the number of divisions, weight classes, keeping team scores,
you know, all of the things that we talked about,
let the state socie. Three. We do need some new
questions for the twenty twenty five survey to find out
organic reasons that some states have better growth rates than others.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Four.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
The states that have girls only wrestle girls have much
better participation numbers than when the girls wrestle boys.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Five.

Speaker 4 (01:12:21):
Once the state sanctions girls wrestlings, the numbers increase dramatically.
All fifty states have a boys individual state championship. Seven.
So many moving parts in multi correlation issues. I don't
think we can definitive No, I don't think we can't

(01:12:42):
definitively connect the answers to the twenty twenty four survey
questions to the participation in growth numbers. Seven, girls have
exponential growth. Girls wrestling is a growth sport. Boys is
a mature sport.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Nine.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
Like Gorms just said a minute ago, wrestling is in
a stronger position on the high school level level than
it's ever been. And ten, the ratio of high school
girls wrestling to the number of NCAA women's team is
higher than any other girls sport eight hundred and sixty
some wrestlers, you know per college team. The room for

(01:13:23):
college group collegiate growth in women's wrestling wrestling, collegiate wrestling
is very strong.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Yeah, thank you for that, Submary Kevin. Next month's show
is going to be a timely topic. It's going to
be the NWCA United States Marine Corps Hurrah Multi Divisional
National Duel Meet Championships. We're going to review it, discuss
the past, what just happened a couple of days before

(01:13:52):
this show comes out. That tournament's January tenth to eleventh.
This show comes out the fifteenth. It's a great thing
sponsored by the n w c A and thank you
to the to the United States Marine Corps for being
the financial support of this. So that's what we're gonna
do on next week on behalf of my fellow host
Kevin and Jason Bryant. This is Glenn Gormley signing off

(01:14:15):
for Matt stocks

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
H