Looking at the history of the National Duals - Mat Stats 40

MatStats does a recap and brief history of the NWCA/USMC National Duals.  We do an analysis on past tourneys.  We find out how many new teams are here and how many states.  We also show how competitive this tourney is and how important it is for our sport.  MatStats show how much this event has grown under the leadership of the NWCA.
 
Slideshow for this Episode: https://www.mattalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/slideshow40.pdf
 
About Mat Stats
Welcome to the NWCA’s latest venture to help our favorite sport. Glenn Gormley, Jason Bryant and Kevin Hazard outline their effort to bring statistical analysis to wrestling. Mat Stats is the NWCA’s attempt to bring wrestling up to speed with so many other sports by incorporating stats. It is the same sport, the wrestlers are just older and better. 

Mat Stats by the NWCA is a monthly podcast by the National Wrestling Coaches Association Apple Podcasts | Spotify | iHeartRadio | Podcast Addict | Castbox | RSS

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Statistics. They can mean many things. It can be a
batting average, a win percentage, correlations and standard deviation. But
numbers aren't just for nerds. In life, decisions need data.
In wrestling decisions, projections and hypotheticals also need data. Here

(00:24):
on matt Stats we take historical data, theories and statistics
and apply it to the world's oldest and greatest sport.
Now to your trio of numerical nerd balls, Glenn Gormley,
Kevin Hazard, and Jason Bryant.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
And welcome back to the mat Stats Show. Jason Broyan
here all along with Glenn Gormley and Kevin Hazzard. Today
we talk National Duels. They are in our rear view mirror.
We just finished up with the NWCAUSMC Multidivisional National Duels
and if I said, the entire thing, and we have
to be grateful for our sponsors, but the entire name
of the event would take the whole show.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
But again thanks to capital construction.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
A Better Way Athletics and all of the defense so
opened all the sponsors for over the years at the
National Duels.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
But we're going to talk about it today. Why are
we going to talk about it?

Speaker 4 (01:12):
One.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
It's fresh in our memory, we've got multiple champions. But
also there's a lot of history in this event. And
also again the topic of national duels has come up
within the last forty eight hours as David Taylor, the
new head coach at Oklahoma State, brought it's like, hey,
why don't we bring back national duels? Well, guess what,
we still have national duels. We haven't ever had not

(01:34):
had national duels at least since the late eighties. And
we'll talk about that historically, but it's just been in
different layouts and perspectives because Division one has been without
it for a number of years. We've got it back
this year. We'll talk about that. So before we get going,
it's been cold. It's been cold. It's been cold. I
was at the Virginia Duels this past weekend where where

(01:54):
Kevin Hazzard. We lost about fourteen teams because we got
dusted in Hampton. Literally a dusting of snow caused about
fourteen different teams. The City of Virginia Beach pulled out
after day one. We had some schools from Southwest Virginia
dot Com. Let's just say I walked out look at
a parking lot. It was wet in Virginia Beach. I

(02:14):
was texting with Cox High School coaches Jeff and Dalton Head,
who twenty years after I first met them, I still
can't tell them apart there twins. You know, their roads
were impassable. It was covered in sunlight, so very very
hard to see. So typical Southeastern Virginia weather. When they
get a thread of snow, all haites breaks loose and

(02:35):
they don't know how to deal with it. Meanwhile, here
in Minnesota, my wife is shoveling the driveway after putting
the kids on the bus. So yeah, anyway, things happened
with weather, had a bunch of teams down there. It
was good to be back in Virginia. But you know
that's kind of ties into what we're talking about today.
But how's the weather, Glen, You had that same stormfront
come through. He did it handle with the mountains there

(02:57):
of Tennessee.

Speaker 5 (02:58):
Yeah, you know, we had snow here and I live
on the mountain, so it was a little bit rough.
But I ran up and down the mountain in the
snow every day rather than driving to the gym, So
after two days it was totally passable.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Nice flex, Nice flex. Kevin what about you in Delaware?

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Was so last week last Monday, we got ten inches
and we got another two inches that night, and we
got a dusting the early part of this week.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
They did keep wrestling. Did the high schools keep wrestling?

Speaker 4 (03:28):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, of course, of course we did.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Anyways, I'm not gonna har on the school you know,
safety first, I get it. But anyway, the biggest issue
was actually the local schools like Hampton, Newport News, York
County that they they were locals, so they weren't getting
hotel rooms and that was the thing. Is like getting
on the bus in the morning. Now up in the
like Northern in Gloucester and in Williamsburg they got you know,
four or five inches, which honestly, that's significant. That's like,

(03:54):
ah yeah, but when you know, we get a dusting
in areas, it's like I'm looking at Wavy Channel and
WVEC thirteen back home going you you screwed up big. Anyway,
enough about that. Today we're talking national duels, so let's
just get to it. We got a lot of stuff
going on, so we'll hit the change here on episode
forty and Glenn wrestling in Cedar Falls. I was there

(04:18):
last year at the multi duels at the Unidome, which
is had been the home for the event for quite
a while prior to it moving around to Louisville to Springfield, Illinois.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
I mean, I love the event. I love the event.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Sometimes the calend falls differently where I cannot attend. This
is one of those things when I went back home
to Virginia and I didn't have hockey over top of
me this weekend. So you know, we've got a lot
of stuff here on the show. So what do we
have really in storyline?

Speaker 5 (04:44):
Okay, this is going to be a recap of the
tournament that just top it in a brief history about it,
had some stats on what teams have won the most titles.
You know how competitive is the field and you know
why it's so important to the sport. Okay, the reason
we do this show is Mike Moyer, the executive director

(05:06):
of the NWCA, wants to have a library statistical analysis
at his disposal, and that's why we do this. But,
as we always have to say, opinions expressed here in
this show do not necessarily reflect any policies of the NWCA,
nor do Gormley, Brian and Hazard always agree with each
other's opinions and stuff. Okay, Matt Stats is a show

(05:30):
based on numbers and statistics and analyzation. It's not based
on opinions. Okay, The opinions come from the facts, all right.
We started doing this last month where we included the
NCWA on the list of four year colleges. It's a
total of seven hundred and nineteen right now, and one
day we'll be able to go back and figure out

(05:50):
just how many schools are were in the NCAA before
the NCAA kept great records of that in eighty one
eighty two.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
We are off to a really good start this year.
I you know, like we just looked at, collegiate wrestling
is really healthier than it's ever been. Women's wrestling is booming,
and we've got more men's teams than ever. Three intercollegiate
organizations for for your schools, NCUBA and AIA and nc WA. Okay, now,

(06:26):
let's talk about this month's topic, the NCAA n WCA
national duels and what we will be exploring.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
And as always, as always Glenn, we do have the
slide show a company with us. So if you are
listening in your car, probably not well driving and swiping
through this. We have the slideshow available at NBCA online
dot com and on Matt Talk online dot com. To
a company with this because as always, we have a
lot of charts, stats, facts and figures, and Glenn will
be citing those throughout the course of the show. So

(06:58):
when you hear Glenn say, next Clyde, we're actually going
through a slideshow on this if you're listening and not
watching the actual video, which again is available on Matt
took online and the NWCA online website.

Speaker 5 (07:10):
Okay, I just wanted to echo what Jason said about
our spontsor the main sponsor, United States Marine Corps Urrah.
Thank you for your help to the core. Okay. Like
I said briefly before, recap it again for people, it's
a brief history of the NWCA Duels, how many divisions,
teams and states are representing it. Okay. The resurgence of

(07:31):
wrestling in the twenty first century has enabled this tournament
to grow. We have a list of the teams competing
that compete it in the twenty twenty five tournament, and
then a list of all the place winners and a
list of the past champions and the calibers of the field.
I'll try to give you a quick history. Clearly, Gormesen

(07:52):
Howzard are much older than Jason, but Jason does know
so much about the sport. But going back in the
late seventies and early eighties, when I was a student
at Willyman, Mary, it's when John Graham started the Virginia Duals. Okay,
I actually wrestled it in the second year they ever
had it, in eighty one, and it started out with

(08:13):
four high school teams and eight college teams. The events
still exist and there were nineteen colleges and forty eight
high schools at twenty twenty five. I don't know how
many of it actually could compete the whole time, but
that's what it was scheduled for. The Virginia Duels and
Cliff Keene ran the National Duels till the mid nineties.
It started in eighty nine with them just a men's

(08:35):
NCAAD one championship. Then in the mid nineties the NWCA
took it over. In two thousand and two, the NCAA
Men's D two and D three were at it in
two thousand and four.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
More you're at it.

Speaker 5 (08:50):
The NAIA and the National Junior College Athletic Association in five.
The women were at it in seven eight twenty four,
it says, and the NWCA added the NCWA, I made
a mistake. I am I.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Smelling alphabet suit man. It's everywhere. Even we do it, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (09:14):
Even we do it. Ifn we do it, Okay, I'm
good with numbers. I don't write well. Okay. So anyway,
the NCWA will have their national duels, and Newport News
hopefully it doesn't snow there at all.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, you write good her Yeah, I righte gooder exactly, Okay.

Speaker 5 (09:32):
A little bit more history on the quick issue of
the national duels. The men's NCAAD one was stopped after
twenty seventeen, but more you're brought it back in twenty
twenty five, but in a different format. In twenty twenty five,
the men's NCAAD one duels were from mid major schools. Now,

(09:54):
there's not really the definite agreed on definition of mid major. Okay,
different sports, they call it different things. One of the
most widely interpretations of this is if you're not a
power for conference, the SEC, Big ten, Big twelve, at ACC,
you're a mid major. Okay. How that breaks out with football?

(10:14):
Having one A and one double A. Who knows how
you want to define that, but that's basically the way
we're defining that right now for this show is the
mid majors are schools that are not Power four conferences.
And that school in South Bend, Indiana that doesn't have
a wrestling team, I never know if they're a Power

(10:34):
fork team or not because are they really in the
conference or not.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, you know, the old bcs and the old polls
were like, ah, the winners of these conferences and it
was always and Notre Dame. So yeah, for every metric,
Notre Dame does classify as a P four even though
it's still hard for me to say P four, even
though power five is relatively a recent term. So I
am your guy when it comes to semantics. And this

(11:00):
is where Kevin and I are going to have real
fun with this because this is actually an It actually
got into an argument, and it wasn't like I like,
I'm going to die on this hill on this one
of semantics with actually was a you and I wrestling fan.
We'll touch on that in a second, but as we
got here, Kevin, we've got what we've got. We know,
in football terms, we call the you know, the power

(11:21):
the P four, the Power four. It used to be
Power five. The dissolution of the old Pac twelve as
we know it. So we've got the ACC the Big
ten to Big twelve and the SEC those are the
Power four. Now when it comes to college basketball, this
is where the term mid major really kind of happened,

(11:41):
because every Division one school has men's basketball.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Three ways to look at it.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
So you look at all the conferences, the thirty something
Division one conferences. If you're one of those P four,
those Big four, the revenue driving programs that have monster
power for football programs, that is a major. That is
what they term a major power for now. The next
tier is what they call mid majors. And there there

(12:07):
is a real split on if this is a positive thing,
a negative thing, or some people are just like, eh, whatever.
So when you look at the schools that have football
that are Division one that are not in those P
four conferences, that is the best way I can say
it's a mid major, even though I just said it
was about basketball, because again, college basketball really kind of

(12:29):
considered those the misery valleys of the world, the summits,
the horizons like the one bid maybe two bid. Leagues
are like mid majors. They're not they're major colleges. They're
big Division one schools in some a lot of cases,
but they just they're not in that big East Atlantic ten.
So in basketball, those conferences, for example, are in that
next upper tier. Then we get to sometimes what's termed

(12:52):
as low majors, or they used to Glen. You heard
Glenn say one double A. So again the split in
nineteen seventy eight, we had one A, you had one
double A. Then there's what they used to call one
triple A, which are like the Utah Valleys of the world,
the CSU Bakersfield Division one schools that check that mid
major box, but they don't have football, so that is
what they consider in some cases low majors. Now, that

(13:15):
to me is probably the most derogatory term because it's like,
just because you don't have football doesn't mean you're not important.
Because college football is a root of a lot of
our evils. It's also a root of a lot of
the money. But at the same point, college athletic budgets
and as we learn, accounting is a funny thing, especially
when we look at what one school in Division two
looks as profit and division one just pays no attention

(13:37):
to it. So for the processes of how we describe it,
mid major again, it's more of an institutional term. It
doesn't refer to what you are. You're not like a
major in one sport in a mid major in another.
That's not really how it works. Although there is. The
one asterisk is that the college basketball people do not
consider Gonzaga a mid major anymore because they have they've

(14:00):
been a power program and they're actually moving into the
Big twelve here soon for basketball if memory serves, so
they've still got a couple years of that faux mid
major label, even though again they don't have football, so
they kind of they're like, what's technically could be a
low major, but it's a major. So again, the semangical
argument behind this is completely ridiculous in a lot of ways.

(14:23):
Personal opinion. Again, I said this opinion, and I say
this because I do coordinate the mid major Top twenty
for the NBCA. I'm not a fan of the term,
never really have been a fan of the term. Doug
Schwab just gave an interview after they rolled through the
National Dul's spoiler alert. He doesn't even like the term.
And you know, some coaches find a derogatory. The old
Xavier basketball coaches and Cincinnati basketball coach are like, that's

(14:44):
not we're major program We feel we're major programs. I
understand that, and I believe that. You know, in college hockey,
there's only seven schools that are eight schools that are
Power five schools, Power four schools that have hockey. So
does that mean the rest of them that are like
blue bloods like Denver does and have football. That's a
blue blood college hockey program. They won ten national championships.

(15:04):
They don't have football. Colorado College is a Division III
school that has D one hockey. They've won national championships
back in the day. So this is what you have
to consider. I told you that story so we can
tell you the rest of the story, and I truncated
it as best I could because I could go on
for hours about how this term is applied or misapplied. Again,
a lot of nuanced don't get hung up. Don't spend

(15:25):
as much time getting hung up on the terminology like
I am. Okay, I just I got to hang up
on these semantics. So you understand the context of how
this term applies to wrestling. It's not our term, but
baseball has co opted it, swimming has co opted it,
wrestling has co opted it for you know, and.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
A lot of these schools believe it or not.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Like the poll, they like the top twenty pole because
it gives them another opportunity to be recognized, you know,
and if if you're in a field of giants and
your funding isn't what it is, it kind of gives
you a more comparable playing field of what type of
schools you're competing against peer institutions.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
So soapbox done.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
I didn't really think I was going to spend that
much time on the mid major discussion, but that sets
the table for that term. Again, not a fan of it,
but it is what it is.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
Well, welcome to the mid majors.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
Thank you, Kevin. Okay, with all that being said, we
have a the next slide shows.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
We're also ignoring their hats because.

Speaker 5 (16:25):
Yeah, well I'm just wearing a hat for where the
men's NCUBA D one Championship to be in March.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, Kevin's got where I was born and raised.

Speaker 5 (16:34):
Okay, So okay, So back to wrestling talk. We're talking
about the national tools again, Okay, we have a slide
here in the number of teams. There's fourteen teams in
men's NCUBLEA Division one sixteen and Men's NC DOUBLEA Division
two twenty four, Division three, sixteen at men's NAIA, and
sixteen at both women's NC DOUBLEA and Women's n ai A.

(16:58):
It's a total of one hundred and two teams. Seventy
of those teams are NCAA teams, thirty two NAIA seventy
or men's teams, and thirty two are women's teams. Okay, now,
there is a lot of numbers here, so I'll wrap
it up as quickly as I can for you guys.
It basically is the same distribution as the total of

(17:22):
teams in the NCAA and NAIA. Okay, it's very close.
It's basically the same percentage of men and women and
teams in each division. It's really great the way the
NWCA got this to really look like something that you're
going to see in the collegiate wrestling world. Now, just

(17:44):
to show you how widespread it is in the country,
there were thirty four different states represented in the past
and NWCA USMC national duels. I've misspelled that too, thirty
four of those and in the March Madness and Men,
there were thirty three different states plus DC, which is

(18:08):
kind of a state. Okay, so that's so we're as
widespread as that is. Okay, what state has the most teams?
Iowa has fifteen teams, and there's a list of all
of them there. I'm not gonna list every single one
of them, but thirty four states have the one hundred
and two teams. Okay. Then Kevin put a map together

(18:32):
for US. Okay, we don't use blue, we don't use
red because this is the stats show. Okay, so all
the states in orange and that thing have a team. Here,
the ones a gray do not. We're hoping one day
to have all fifty states plus d C, GWAM, whatever
else territories in the United States.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Road trip, I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Like the University of American Samoa, the proud alma mater
of one Jimmy McGill, is going to have a wrestling program,
and I don't know, PAC twelve.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Could be open for it. Yeah, no, they're not going.
They would fit the bill of the Pacific.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Yes, yeah, more so, Yeah, that road trip Yeah, okay,
fifty six of the one hundred and two teams were
started this century. Okay, and a shout out to my
fellow host here, Jason Bryant. Nobody does a better job
of keeping track of this than Jason. I go on

(19:32):
his website all the time and that's where I got
this from. But it's really amazing that fifty five percent
of these programs were started this century. So for anyone
who thinks so the sport isn't growing, look at slide
forty to seventeen for that.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay, all right, the next little happy fingers on the
trigger there, Sorry for the folks, watch, okay.

Speaker 5 (19:56):
You The next slide is by the years, how many
teams have been in each division and you can see
how it's growing to get to one hundred and two.
And like we said in the first thing, the first
Virginia Duels at four high schools and eight regional colleges
in the very.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Well, I want to also talk about that now. John Graham,
the founder of the Virginia Duels, passed away last year.
This was the first Virginia Duels without John, and you
know his impact. He was the Olympic team leader in
ninety six. I mean it's it's it's the thing. You know,
I walk into my hometown of the coast in Virginia.
Rich Benders there, Jim Humphries there, Kerry McCoy's there, Brian

(20:34):
Dolph's there. You know, you have people that have been
part of world teams, national teams, you know, coaching staffs
and such. And the story goes and John had a
bit of a drawl to him, all right there.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
You know it's a very fisherman. But the guy was
like he was.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
He was like worked with like the Moonlanders, and you
know it was a land developer and seafood like this
guy had. The guy was a jack of all trades
and he was very good and he was he was
old college football player, rental making back in the day.
So the story is is he wants to know the duels,
the team versus team. He goes, you know they're talking about, oh,
you need to get get a lee Higher said no, no, no,

(21:10):
the stories he need. You need a name people recognize,
and we bring up that team in South but you
need to notre Dame, you know, get the power names school.
It doesn't matter how good their wrestling team was. You
needed names to get people in the door the first thing,
and then of course North Carolina has been there, Clemson,
cal Poly has wins Navy, and then again it became

(21:31):
the National Duels, and famously with the coin flip between
Oklahoma State and Penn State, they came down to the
very last criteria. I think it was criteria as seven Z.
Everything was even and the last one was coin flip,
and neither coach wanted to do it. I think it
was I think it was Chesbro and Rich Lorenzo. If
my time frames are right. This was before I really
got into it. But yeah, so I don't think it

(21:52):
was Joe c but we're in that range. So there's
there's a lot of history. But John Graham was his
big things, like he wanted name schools in there to
really get people to pay attention, not realize, because you know,
the average sports fan doesn't know that, you know, you know,
for examples, say you see Notre Dame. Oh well yeah,

(22:13):
the average sports fan wouldn't think that they're they're terrible
at everything. Uh So it's just for example. So uh
that's that's kind of the John Graham idea of what
launched it. Because team versus team duel meet advancement concept.
It was born there, so it wasn't done anywhere before there.
So that's that's kind of the key with hence kind
of borrow a rose Bowl term a granddaddy of them

(22:34):
all as Ed Aliverti.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
Would always kind of borrow. Uh. So that's that's a
little bit of the Virginia Duels tie into the birth
b I R r t H N b E r
t H.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
You birth of something and you you have a birth
to the National Duels for example, thank you.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Also they had the Virginia Duels this year. Did have
n c w A teams.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
I know Libertyeah, we've had the Apprentice school is local
and Liberty has been a longtime participant. They participated as
a club team, they participated as a Division one team,
and they participated again as a very well funded club team.
They even have Liberty club sports is there like their
hockey teams on ESPN Plus and their club team. It's
nuts that school does with their club sports. But yeah,

(23:17):
Liberty and Apprentice were represented that field for example. Where
the growth this goes to tie into the growth the
growth of all the small colleges. Again, when I came
through high school and you know, I'm coming up on
thirty years out at this point. A matter of fact,
this week is my thirty year anniversary in getting into
the sport of wrestling. But there was one Division III
school in the state then. Now there's multiple ones, and

(23:39):
you know we had Avertt and Fareham and Merrymount at
the tournament this year. Of course, Apprentice has been a
long time anchor of the small colleges and that tournament
is now sixteen teams, used to be eight. It started
as a small college quad with like Longwood, Apprentice, like Davidson.
You know, there were small schools like Davidson would even
come in there even though they were D one. It

(24:01):
was like Delaware State and Coast Guard and schools like
that would come down and have a quad. Then it
blew up into a sixteen team tournament. There's there's all
these small colleges in Iowa. Of the nationals, we still
have no problem getting teams fill in that. So D
one's a different story entirely, but we'll keep moving. Well,
that's another that's a that's another can of worms. Before
I get too fired up on that.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
All right, recappened there were one hundred and two teams
there at the national duels this year, six divisions, and
they've managed the NWCA has managed put together a dual
meet tournament that really reflects, you know, statistically, you know,
percentage wise, what the collegiate world looks like. And that's
kind of the opposite of what the football is doing

(24:43):
with their twelve team playoff. Thirty four states represented fifty
five percent of the teams started this century. All right,
but do we have a list of all the teams
that were there? Glenn, Yes, we do.

Speaker 5 (24:57):
I'm not going to list all one hundred and two teams,
but we do have slides for every division, starting with
men's Division one all the way down. Six different slides
for the six different divisions there, and you can see
whatever school it was.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
On the pause, Glenn, I'll get I'll give them a
couple seconds if they're watching, We'll go slide one, Division one,
and then Division two. I wish I had some mood
music in here. Division three, twenty four teams, the NAIA men.
You can also pause this as I'm going if you
wanted to actually pay attend, here's the sixteen NCAA women's teams.

(25:34):
And again, as we are speaking right now at the
NCAAA convention. There is going to be a vote, and
by the time this show is released, it may be passed,
it may not be passed. About making women's wrestling the
ninety first NCAAA championship sport, the divisional breakups, that's another
that's some minutia, but it's been an emerging sport.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
Will it be voted on as a championship sport.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
That's happening this week now that the sixteenth NAI women's teams,
And here's what we have as last year with our
five championship teams. Of course Glenn alluded to this earlier.
There were no NCWA teams in the field this year.
Last year there were six of including transitional Bellerman which
is Division one eligible now this year. And then the

(26:18):
NCW is having their national Duels in Newport News in
a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
So here's a look at last year's.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Again, we had no D one teams at the duels
last year, but it's been a multi dual event for years.
Central Oklahoma the Broncos spelled with an H Wartburg of course,
the usual suspects Wartburg and Augsburg. They met in the
finals this year. Life won their first men's ANAI Men's
Championship last year and actually broke grand views. I think
it was like one hundred and sixty two NAI dual

(26:45):
meet wins in a row. Snapped that in the finals
Iowa had a barn burner. One of the best duel
meets I saw all last year was at Iowa North
Central Duel Meet. At the National Duels had the opportunity
to call that the Life women won championship last year.
And of course we mentioned Bellerman won the pools in
c w A. So that's how last year's champce worked out.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
Okay, that's a list of all the teams. Thank you
for we will put Are you gonna put mood music
on it? When you when you put this out?

Speaker 2 (27:15):
No, no, no no, don't pay me enough to do
mood music. Come on, man, I might have some tricks
up my sleeve here. I'm not sure what I have
on the soundboard, but uh, I got I got some
Rick Flair sound bites. I don't think that's gonna work
too much. I don't think we need I don't think
we need wus in there, but any.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
I don't know that might be good. But can we
talk a little bit and just recap what happened at
the time. But you've done a little bit of it.

Speaker 5 (27:43):
Can we do a little more?

Speaker 3 (27:44):
I could do a little bit of that.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
And so Division one, as we alluded to, these are
the mid major schools there.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
Northern Iowa has been on a roll.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
They're coming off a win over Nebraska, which at the
time I think was ranked fourth fourth and then you
and I undefeated right now. They lost five matches the
entire tournament. They lost one in the finals, one in
the semis, one in the quarters, and two in the
first round. The format here is every team was guaranteed
four abouts some schools got five, so it's also bang
for the buck. There was also pretty sure I'm not

(28:13):
sure if there was the open attached to it this year,
but that's also a place where you can get some matches.
Here you see Northern Iowa over South Dakota State, a
couple of Big twelve affiliates in the finals Little Rock.
South Dakota State had beaten them in the semis. Northern
Colorado also Big twelve affiliate U Penn from the IVY League, Wyoming,
Central Michigan, Drexel and pen and Drexel. They are a

(28:34):
not even there about a mile, not even a mile
from each other.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
You could watch some.

Speaker 5 (28:38):
Of the buildings, you don't know which ones which.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
And yeah, you get off into the thirty four street station.
There's a there's a there's a good cheese steak truck
right on the back alley right behind Drexlo. I found
that in a layover last year. And you know, they met,
They go all the way to Iowa, they meet. I
don't think they were actually scheduled to meet each other.
So they did the Chief Steak Trophy in Iowa, which
is known for its it's poort point sandwiches. So that's

(29:00):
how the d one shook out. I mean again, Northern
I was on a roll. They're they're just having a
great season. Division two Husky's of Saint Cloud State, that's
the school I know pretty well. I announced two sports there.
They beat Central Oklahoma. That's a rematch of last year's final.
Central Oklahoma won the first four matches and then Saint
Cloud went on a role sweeping the last six, including

(29:23):
an overtime win at fifty seven in which Joel jez
Arroga beat the returning national champion.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
That's the thing that makes like the duel meets so exciting.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's like that's an overtime match in the middle of
the d I mean that changed a lot of things.
That comes down to heavyweight and Laurn Parks is returning
All American and he was at Notre Dame College, which
has won one of these events before in the nai Well,
that schools closed, he had a year of eligibility. He's
at Saint Cloud gets a takedown in a time match,
literally with two seconds to go, to give Saint Cloud

(29:52):
State an eighth National Duels title in Division two. Central
Oklahoma also is the team at the National Duels when
they were in Louisville, snapped Saint Cloud state seventy seven
match dual meet win streak, which is the major college record,
and I say, mate, that's again we're getting into terminologies.
The NCAA record for most because Grandview has one hundred
and seventeen in a row in the NAIA against all schools.

(30:13):
Saint Cloud State's got the NCAA record at seventy seven
in a row, which they set in the semi finals
against Nebraska Karney and then lost the very next match
in the finals against Central Oklahoma. A couple of years ago,
so UCO and Saint Clouds that have had a nice
little dual meet rival with them in the finals. Of course,
the usual suspects of Nebraska Carney has had a tremendous
history in this event. McKendree Parkside, which has been on

(30:36):
a heater here in the last couple of years there
in the same conference with Saint Clouds State, that'd be
a nice duel.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
January thirty first at.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Hallenback Hallowle Plug for the Huskies there, Grand Valley State
varsity program now they've actually won two n CWA titles.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
We'll actually get to that later.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Augustana coach Jason Reemeyer at down at Sioux Falls has
a great job with that program there. In University of
Mary Adamaho's in a real good job with that program there.
That's a tough conference theory because you've got Saint Cloud State, Parkside, Augustana,
and Mary all in the same conference.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
They're in the same regional. So that's gonna be tough.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
And as you might expect in Division three guys, just
like the Nationals Battle of the Burgs, Augsburg one point
over Wartburg, this one came down to heavyweight Wartburg came
down to heavyweight in the semi against Johnson and Wales,
which finished fourth. Mitch Williamson got a fall at heavyweight
to give Wartburg the push into the finals. They were

(31:30):
the top seed. Augsburg was the three seed, beat Wisconsin Lacrosse,
which was the two seed. Every single year that these
two teams have attended, they've won it. The one year
that Augsburg or Wartburg didn't win it both had issues
with pandemic travel, whether it was something going on in
Louisville where neither team actually could attend. It's the only
year neither Augsburg or Wartburg have won it. Grand View

(31:52):
won a twelfth title in the ANAIA, avenging the loss
last year against Life. And what's also interesting is that
again Iowa North Central on the women inside rematch again
not the duel it was last year. But you know
you've got Kennedy Blades and Macy Kilty. You know you've
got world and Olympic medalists sitting there in the in
the lineup, and you know you've also got some some

(32:13):
pretty good battles. Bellamere was at Iowa, now she's at
North Central. Wrestler gets her former team there, So that's
interesting of course, the usual suspects, McKendree and King there,
Presbyterian one of the four Division I schools sitting there,
Fifth Colorado, mace Aurora relatively new program, and Wartburg with
its men's tradition, a relatively new program there. On the
women's side, any women Life back to back champions coach

(32:34):
Ashley Flavin, probably one of my oldest friends in women's wrestling.
The husband wife team there, her and her husband Christian
coaching staff there beats Grandview. Grand View was ranked number
one according to the rankings off and on. They've alternated
rankings this year. So Life in Grandview is developing into
a nice, you know, double rivalry because the men, you know,
the Life staff. Only Acosta wrestled at Grandview. On the

(32:57):
women's side, grand View has made a push on their
women's side, so to try to catch Life, and you know,
it's it's cool if you have that mega duel. You've
got Life versus Grand too in both finals on the
men and the women on the Nai side, that's really cool.
Southern Oregon really good women's program there. University of the
Cumberland's one of the longtime programs. Indiana Tech and Baker
following up. So that's how the rundown went down. Boy,

(33:18):
I mean they were good. I had to write this
stuff up from Virginia, so I'm paying attention. At one
point on the screen, I've and I mentioned this earlier.
I announced home duels at Little Rock as many as
I can, I'm doing two this year. I announced home
duels at Augsburg. I announce home doles at Saint Cloud State.
At one point they were all on the mat at
the same time, so you know, two of them won
it and another one was third. So I was a

(33:38):
pretty good weekend for teams that I'm involved in my
high school. My motter won the Virginia Duels Black and
Blue Division all at all, a good weekend for JB.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
But that's that's what we got, you know, in that tournament.
And what's cool about it.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
I remember Kyle Clinland and I one year, we're at
the Unidome and this is when they still had the
division ones there. It was the It was Lynnenwood, which
doesn't never program anymore because their administrators are never mind
taking on Southern Oregon, and there was everybody's you know,
Iowa was down there, but everybody's paying attention to this
anti a duel.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
It it's great. That's why duel meets are so much
flipping fun? Is that?

Speaker 4 (34:09):
But now let's look who see who's won the most
titles at the NWCA duels history time.

Speaker 5 (34:18):
Yes, at the end NWCA Duels and the Division I
men's side, Oklahoma State, Minnesota both one eight, Iowa six,
Penn State four, then Iowa State, Cornell, Missoo, Northern Iowa
now one each. And I have a list there of
how many NCAA tournament titles they've won. Two then we got.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
Before before let's go back to that. So Oklahoma State
has a new coach, and what did he say this week?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
We need to.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Get back to the national duels. So that would be
really good to see Oklahoma State back there, especially the
way he's got them revving up right now.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
Heck yeah, Kevin, I agree. I'd love to see the
big schools there if they want to do it great,
you know. Okay, Then the slide Jays says up now
is for all the different divisions that we have in
the thing. And I'll just sum it up just with
the leaders. Saint Cloud is leading Men's Division two NCAA.
Wartburger's leading Division III. Grandview, nai A Men, Bellerman and

(35:23):
Grand Valley State are tied for the NCWA Men. The
w CWA Oklahoma City is first, the NCAA women McKendree
and Iowa tie to two now and the NAIA women
Menlo and Life for tie with two, and then the
Junior College Clockhamus and Irish Central have five each. And

(35:45):
the reason there's a w CWA and then an NCAA
Women and an NAIA women prior to it being a
n CUBA and NAIA Sports it was done with the
w CWA.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
That was credits behind. Yeah, and the ncway. Of course
they're they're in there at times. They do have their
own national duels in which they actually add points to
their their team title at the end of the year.
And of course the NJCAA had been there multiple times.
It had been a non scholarship division a couple of
times with the as you see like Nassau for example.
But then also they do their coaches same coach association,

(36:18):
you know, they're part of the NWCA They for travel perspectives,
they go to Northeastern Oklahoma and run a bigger, more
robust duel meet tournament. So they have their own national duels.
It's just a little separate.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
From this division. So that's how they are currently working
at it. Quick quick question on this.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
With the advent of NCAA for women, where does Simon
Fraser fit in being a Canadian team?

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Can they they're in school a school okay, yep, they
are in NCAA for all the sports.

Speaker 5 (36:53):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Although they're hockey team.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
They don't have a varsity hockey team, so they compete
in so that's a different story entirely. I know more
about that than I actually ever cared to know, but
I'm not going to bore you with it on the show.

Speaker 4 (37:04):
Yeah, okay, okay, All five defending team champions are back.
We're back this year, and two defending their titles Iowan
Women and Life Women. Forty two programs from forty colleges
have won titles. Iowan Life both won men's and women's

(37:26):
Kings Women and Notre Dame men one titles in two
different divisions. Now, how competitive were they in twenty twenty five?
I think we've just gone through all that.

Speaker 5 (37:37):
Yes, okay, So the next thing we do is we
do we look at how they're ranked. Once again, thank
you Jason for doing all those rankings, I do it
for top ten, number one, number two, it be the
top number based on how many teams are the respected division.
In other words, if you had sixteen teams, that would

(37:57):
be top sixteen. If you had twenty four men Division three,
it'll be twenty four. Then we go to top twenty five.
And I want to say something here that in the
Men's Division one and C DOUBLEA National Duels, the rankings
we used were the mid majors. I'm sorry to use
that word again, the mid major ranking pole.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
You're not factually incorrect when referencing that ranking. It was
the mid major Top twenty. That's the name of the poll.

Speaker 5 (38:25):
Yep. And since a couple of these polls only go
to top twenty, the Chase releases, he releases as others
receiving votes. So that's how I got the top twenty
five on that. Now, one thing I want to say here.
There are some people that I'll see in the suite
in Philly. Okay, Then I said the NCBLEA Men's Division

(38:46):
one that complain that there's no NC DOUBLEA Men's Power
five teams at the duels, and I'll let go leak
corso not so fast by friends. Five percent of NCUBA
and NAIA men and women's schools are not nc DOUBA

(39:08):
Men's Power for schools. So if you just want to
go to a tournament that features literally the big boys, okay,
you would be ignoring ninety five percent of our collegiate
world at NCUBA and Naia. Okay, the growth in this
sport is coming from outside of NCUBA Men's Power four.

(39:33):
So let's give these coaches a chance to go back
and hold a trophy. Of course, University of Northern Iowa
didn't have to travel at all to present their trophy
because it was in their building. But it's a great
thing that we the NWCA is doing this, and thank
you once again to the core for making this possible.
Now in this slide, okay, eighty a little bit over

(39:58):
eighty one percent of all all the teams in this
tournament were ranked in the top twenty five across all
six divisions. That's pretty healthy. Okay, seventy five percent of
the top ten teams across six divisions were there. Okay,

(40:19):
that's amazing. Now, in the chart before that, only if
you have sixteen teams in division, only ten of them
can be ranked in the top ten. Okay, so you
will not have one hundred percent in that thing. Okay,
just so you guys understand the math. Okay, In the
category that we go down to the ranking based on

(40:40):
how many teams are in the prospective division, sixty eight
point six are a little bit over two thirds, okay,
are ranked where they could be. So that is two
thirds of the way to having a perfect tournament. Now, guys,
what's so impressive about this is a lot of these
are smaller schools. Okay, not everybody can make a road

(41:03):
trip across the country and do all this stuff. That
is an impressive job. And once again, eighty one point
four percent on the top twenty five. So for Moyer
and his staff to get two thirds of all those
available teams to come there, that is a remarkable feat. Guys.

(41:23):
That really is that's tried putting something like that together.
You know, unless you're a self made billionaire and you
can pay everyone to come, it's a pretty impossible task
that he's done a great job with. So what I'm
saying guys, as a statistician, this field is very very strong,

(41:44):
and it's doing something that is unbelievable for this sport,
and that I really feel we need. I was a
guy that was at the first Virginita duels, wrestled in them,
coaching them in the early days. I think the duel
meet thing is great for it and for schools that
do all this stuff to come here. You know, thankfully
we do it, and good luck, Mike Moyer. Keep doing

(42:08):
it every year.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
Okay, that was that pretty impressive eighty plus percent of
the you know, the top teams there, and thank you
for that. And since you're impressed, I'm impressed. Okay, enough
for the stats. Let's talk about it now.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
It's turned out to show you can never be done
with the stats anyway.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
Here are this guys, this guy like an open four betree,
the three of us right now. Why is nw C
Hossel duel so important? I think it's just so important
because the dual meet tends to be overshadowed in our
sport number one. Okay, because you remember, everybody knows who
won the twenty twenty four men's d one last year.

(42:53):
We are Penn State, right, But the dual meets, I
don't you know know if too many people know who
want all the due meat. So I think it's a
great thing. I think it's great to have people in there.
They have one hundred and two teams. It limits the
travel for the fans. They only have to go to
one place to watch. As Jason said, a minimum of
four matches okay, and six different coaches will be able

(43:18):
to come back with trophies and you can see, you know,
if anybody who's been to the Unidome, like I've been
many times, it's a great arena. You have a football
field where you could put more than eight mats on okay,
like the Junior Nationals used to have when it was
at the UNI Dome, and you really have a chance
to see a lot of exciting action. Just like at

(43:39):
the NCAA tournament. The first round is better to have
more good action than the finals because you have eight
mats versus one. So I'm all for this tournament. Guys.
I think it's great. Jason and Kevin give me your feedback.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Well, I'm always a big fan, and again I like,
we know, like we think we have a crown jewel,
especially the Division one level, our national championships are. That's
the party spot. That is our Marti Gras of wrestling.
It is where you know, you got people going forty
to fifty years in a row. You talk about the
people that are in the way, and Mary Sweet, you know,

(44:14):
I've got a run, a running group of running buddies
that I hang out with that I see every year.
I get to see him on the front end, on
the back end, don't get to see him much in
the middle. But if I get a chance to get
lunch during one of those days, you know, it's talk
about old stories.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
It's it's it's a you know, we're we're it's like
the world's biggest you know, Greek sorority and fraternity of
people that are mostly of got cauliflower here.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I don't because I always joke I got cauliflower back.
But we look at just that big party. But there's
also a thing that from a sports perspective, I look
at it this way. Seventy five to eighty percent of
our competitive events in sport of wrestling, whichever division you're in,
are dual meets. I think one of the flaws in

(44:57):
our sport is we determine a champion, our crowned chainampion,
in a way that's different than how we wrestle most
of our competition. And again that's confusing. Again, for you know, drawing.
And I want to keep saying, why are we so
concerned about the casual fan? Well, our fans, you know,
the people that are going forty and fifty years. You know,
you guys, for example, you're not going to be here forever.

(45:18):
Who are we replacing you with? That's the thing, you know.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
The dual meet is the front door to the sport.
The National championship is your payoff that weekend once you
were addicted and hooked into college wrestling.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
That is your gym. That is your crown Joe, that
is your party weekend. But your love or the sport
usually starts with going to a dual meet and that
ten matches in high school, fourteen matches thirteen depending on
the state. You sit there and you get that opportunity
to learn the sport up close and personal. Then you
see your team versus team the advancement. This is where

(45:54):
the Virginia Duels thirty years ago, this week basically crafted
my love for the sports. I'm an advocate for the
dual meet because it was my entry point. I was
the casual sports fan who stumbled across the dual meet
happened to be a program. It's good again, why was
Iowa got so many fans back in the day.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
They were good.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
They drew people in winning teams usually breathed most fans
because those the winning is addictive. And they do that
with bringing people in the dual meets and then they
get them hooked. Then they go to the national tournament.
You don't just start out being a fan by going
to nationals. So that's the one thing I see the
dual meet, the dual meat advancement. You see the cheering.
You see that like these high school kids, especially love
with the high school kids. When you get the basically

(46:34):
your scrub heavyweight and I hate to you know, your
scrub heavyweight that you've had out for maybe three months
gets the biggest win of his life in a dual
meat advancement tournament and he is the hero of the day.
It's not your state champion that wins the dual meet
for you. It's it's for lack of a better tournament
for scrub and it's it's something that makes their career.

(46:56):
It also turned you know, it's like it's so high drama.
We had so many matches come down to heavyweight. Tony
Rotundo captured a great picture in college of the approna
school heavyweight getting a fall for them to win.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
I think it was fifth place or advanced and just.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
The joy the whole team celebrates, versus you've got one
guy over there making wait for a semi final while
another guy's in the blood round that he's not paying
attention to. I feel it's a real team builder too.
So I'm an advocate for dual meat advancement. I'm also
one hundred percent biased because I was basically I was
born out of the Virginia Duels, the birthplace of the
doo meat advancement concept. Again, from a sports perspective, you

(47:32):
know eighty percent of our matches are wrestled this way.
I think we should crount a champion that way. Don't
change the NASH Tournament. I think that Again. The team score,
that's I don't feel like any but five teams a
year care about the team score. The Citadel's not going
to the Nationals hoping, hey let's take top thirty. That's
not what happens. You go for the party. The individual
is where the crown jewels. The team score is a
byproduct of what it is. But again, we also have

(47:55):
a sport that we determine a team champion in a
format that you cannot physically count every team score on
your hand, you can't tabulate without a computer. That to
me is somewhat illogical. I'm not saying that there's been
a problem with that in the past, it just doesn't
to me, it just never made sense. I've always disliked
team scoring even before. Uh you know, I don't care

(48:16):
if it's dynasties or not. Because you look at the
dual meat teams.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
The champions Wartburg and Augburger won every single one they've
been in for the last twenty years. That's probably not
going to change. But Johnston, Wales came close, Wisconsin La
Crosse came close. One year Concordia was of Morehead was
in the finals. The Central Michigan had the number two
dual meet team in the country. When you're Edinburgh, you've.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Got your your your lee highs of the world to
have the duel meets that knock off The Ohio states that,
you know the NSA basketball tournament, for example, it's a
team sport. Well, yea, the best team doesn't always win.
Why why do we want to make sure that the
best team always wins?

Speaker 3 (48:52):
That's not fun. Chaos is fun chaos. I'm off my soapbox, Kevin.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
But talking about go back a little bit talking about
the Duels, I found it interesting. I think it's great
that they're out there, and I like, like you guys said,
having it with all the other divisions, and I like,
what flows do it? I mean flow flow Tomorrow Night's
going to have Presbyterian. You know, the women's team for

(49:21):
Presbyterian is going to be on Flow Wrestling.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Oh the Night in America.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, that's any great concept, fantastic, joys awesome.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
And I think it's you know, it's I think all
of that leads to and I'm especially interested in Presbyterian
because you know, they're two Virginia girls on the team.
Charlie Schuler is the one fifteen pounder and may Coollier
is I think one hundred and sixty and they were
both Virginia Wrestlers of the Year a couple of years ago.
So it's that's a really good part of it. And

(49:53):
I think all of that, I think we're all agreed
that the Duels are. I remember when Brian was my son,
Brian was in high school, the dual meets, we'd have
dual meets and we'd have three thousand people there. I
mean for a high school match of Virginia. That was
a big deal. So dual meets are are good, and they.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
Need to be even a bigger part of wrestling.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
We had high school duel meets on TV with Matt
Lamp I mean one of them we had. It was
one of my high high school teammate's, Mike Acres, was
had stopped a guy named Bobby Ingram. He broke his
undefeated streak. He was at that time a two time
triple A champ. Acres was a three time double A champ.
The little school guy beat the big school undefeated guy
and it was under a Matt LANMP. We got crushed
in the duel, but the place was full. A week later,

(50:37):
Great Bridges ranked number three in the country. We're ranked
fourth in Double A and it you know, it's I
think they might have gotten a police escort out of town.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
It was just it was on TV.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
It was like Victor Jackson had just transferred in. It
was his first match in he beats a state champ,
his first match, I mean, drama.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
It was great. It was great, just like but you know,
I guess we just can't have nice things sometimes anyway.

Speaker 5 (51:02):
Well look for us, But Paul hold, before we get
the kevinoes, let me tell you a quick story when Jason, well, yeah,
when Jason said about a heavyweight winning a big mouth
match about thirty some years ago, a guy named Matt
Brandon one that about for Willeman Mary to duel meet
against Rutgers with a winn a heavyweight. Matt Brandon is

(51:22):
now the alumni director at William and Mary. And every
time I talk about Matt Brandon, the first thing I
say is he's the reason we beat Rutgers. So for
thirty years till the day I die, Matt brand is
going to be best known in my mind that we
beat Rutgers because I have Thank you, Matt Brandon.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
Go ahead, Kevin, So, let's recap a little bit. Three
wrestling organizations in wrestling in for Wrestling and Cuba, n
AIA and and CWA. They're now seven hundred and nineteen
four your teams for enterning eighty three men, two hundred

(52:03):
and thirty six women. The NWCA US Marine Corps Duels
have expanded from its its origin as a just a
D one tournament to now there are six divisions. I think,
you know, two thirds of the states in the United
States were at the National Duels this year. I think
that's very impressive. But really more impressive, fifty five percent

(52:27):
of the teams at the National Duels were added this century.
That's that's that's a really telling statistic. And the twenty
twenty five National Duels. Yeah, I mean you go back
and look at the at the chart, it almost matches
how they line up. The number of teams almost match

(52:50):
how they line up in the wrestling world. The NCAA
D one teams back this year for the first time
that was since twenty seventeen. Really glad they're back. Forty
two different programs for forty colleges have won titles. Seventy

(53:11):
five percent of all the top teams across six divisions's
that's also a telling statistic. Three quarters of the top
teen ten, top ten teams were at these duels. Eighty
percent of the teams across all six divisions were in
the top twenty five. And due to a scheduling conflict conflicts,

(53:33):
INCWA will not we're not there, but we all hope
they'll be back to the future National Duels. But they
were at the Virginia Duels this year, which is really nice.

Speaker 5 (53:44):
Yep, I thank you for that for the keV notes.
Now guys, our next episode, okay. Kevin and I have
been pushing to get the big Eye of all rustling.
Mike Moyer, the executive director of the NWCA on is
a guest for next month show, okay, and based on
his scheduling still being open, we're gonna sit down with

(54:05):
Mike and try to explain some things to people that
just don't understand what's going on with the sport between
transfer portal, roster size and scholarship limits, the nil competition
limits and every other question. And Kevin and I believe,
between Mike Moyer and Jason Brant, we're going to get
a show out there to educate people on these topics. Okay.

(54:30):
So hope to see you guys next month in February
and until then. For my fellow cohursts Jason Bryant and
Kevin Hazard, I'm Glenn Gormley signing off for Matt Staffs