On A Clear Day You Can See College Athletics (Part 1 of 3) - Mat Stats 45

In this three-part series, MatStats does a business study using stats and financial data to help the viewers understand the drastic changes in college sports.  It is so confusing, it is tough to understand the business of college sports in 2025. 

MatStats explores the revenues, expenses, & profits of college athletic departments in Part 1.  In Parts 2 & 3 we dive into Conference realignment,  Revenue Sharing, NIL, roster limits, potential LLCs & most importantly the affects it could all have on college wrestling & how to make college wrestling sustainable.

Slideshow for Episode 45: https://www.mattalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Slideshow-45.pdf


About Mat Stats
Welcome to the NWCA’s latest venture to help our favorite sport. Glenn Gormley, Jason Bryant and Kevin Hazard outline their effort to bring statistical analysis to wrestling. Mat Stats is the NWCA’s attempt to bring wrestling up to speed with so many other sports by incorporating stats. It is the same sport, the wrestlers are just older and better.

Mat Stats by the NWCA is a monthly podcast by the National Wrestling Coaches Association
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Statistics.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
They can mean many things. It can be a batting average,
a win percentage, correlations, and standard deviation. But numbers aren't
just for nerds. In life, decisions need data. In wrestling decisions,
projections and hypotheticals also need data. Here on Matt Stats,

(00:26):
we take historical data, theories, and statistics and apply it
to the world's oldest and greatest sport. Now to your
trio of numerical nerd balls, Glenn Gormley, Kevin Hazard, and
Jason Bryant.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
And welcome to another episode of the Matt Stats Show.
Along with Kevin Hazzard and Glenn Gormley, I'm Jason Bryant,
and we begin a three part series today in the
wonderful world of college athletics. But before we get to
the wonderful world of House versus Nil, not in l I,
which is now gone. A lot of things out there.

(01:05):
The news changes almost hourly on this so before we
get into the deep dive on the finances of college
sports today, which again Glenn being our resident actual statistician,
not just the guy who likes numbers. I like numbers.
I'm not an actual statistician, that guy actual statistician. So
Glenn's going to dig into this, and again, this is

(01:26):
going to be a first of a three part series.
When I call it a three parts show, Glenn, I
had to pivot on your turning.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Now this is a series.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
This is like you go to church and you've got
a three to six fifteen part sermons series. It's kind
of like that. This is a series. It may be
sermon esque. I'm just gonna warn you first of all,
because there's gonna be some fire. There's gonna be some
hell fire and brimstone here being thrown about in the
college sports world. Before we get to it, we got
in NWCA convention coming up. As we record this on

(01:54):
July twenty eighth, this will be our July episode for
Matt Status show. I'm heading out for start with the
board meeting on that Thursday. We've got the Coach's Leadership
Academy that goes on, and Glenn Kevin, I want to
touch to you guys a little bit before we get
into the show topic about the value of the NBCA convention.
This is an NWCA show, so of course we're associated
with it. This was my first like on the job,

(02:17):
like move to Pennsylvania, go to the convention. It was
in Buffalo my first year on the job back in
two thousand and five. So we're coming up with my
twenty year anniversary of my first convention, and a lot
of things have changed in the worlds of college sports.
But Glenn, start with you and what you've seen from
a former college coach standpoint to being involved with the
NBCA the value of the NBCA convention not just to

(02:39):
the college world, but to the sport of wrestling in general.

Speaker 5 (02:42):
Sure, Jason, thanks for asking that. When I was a
coach who was way back when in the eighties, we
didn't even know there was an NWCA, William and Mary
let alone think about going to a convention if there
was one. Now, I look at it as a camp,
miss weekend or week whatever you want to call it
for the sport. I think Moyers and the staff. Dan
Weaver puts this all together as a young kid, Doctor Briquette,

(03:07):
you know, Stephanie. They all do such a good job
there at eight NAS. I don't want to miss anybody
naming everybody, but it's really something that's really great for
the sport, and I'm happy to be driving down there
on Wednesday and being there for four or five days.
I think it's a can't miss the thing.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Kevin, You're gonna have to be in a car with
this guy for that long drive. I mean, you're looking
forward to the convention, but.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Just from the airport, he's picking me up in Jackson Kill, all.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Right, So okay. And it's like you know, Sawgrass Marriott too.
So if you're you're into hitting the sticks and uh,
you know, replacing your divits, it's also got that for you.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
But talking and talking about that, I think it's it's
it's really important. I think you get coaches from some
of the smaller schools, they get to talk to some
of the coaches from bigger schools. I think there's a
lot of ideas shared, and I agree with Glenn, it's
gotten much much more important. And I think the NWCA
has kind of knit the college wrestling community together and

(04:07):
this weekend is just a time for a lot of
ideas to be shared. And you know, we're going to
learn a lot about what we're talking about because we're
going to get some opinions from some of the big
coaches and find out what they feel about this and
what it's going to mean to wrestling and just college.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Sports in general, and one thing that comes up every year.
I mean, this is where and I point to this.
I think it was the convention in Tahoe, which, believe
it or not, I actually found my old luggage tag
from the convention. I want to say it was seven,
And I remember the NCAAA sitting in that Division one meeting,
the general membership meeting for Division one talking about the

(04:50):
qualifier system and telling the wrestling coaches, if you don't
figure it out, we're going to figure it out for you.
And the options on the table, you know, people were
talking about regionalization, you know, going to regions and things
of that nature. I remember coaches had pronounce of things
that I had written on Internet about about the quality
qualifiers that didn't make it based on the old qualification system,

(05:12):
and they all had these ideas. And then when that happens,
like and then I remember Tom Ryan spoke up. He goes,
why can't we use current your data? Because the NCAA
was moving away from historical data. You know, you don't
see it used anymore. There's the chance like during COVID,
I think they had to use the historical data for
the one year, but we look at like now it's
using current your data. You know, you can take all

(05:34):
the shots you want at the qualification system as it is,
it's still light years better.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
We've got the best three thirty going every year.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
We're not leaving guys that had one bad day home
typically now that still happens, but it's few and far
between compared to leaving twenty good guys at home versus
leaving two, which is where we're at now. And I
just remember that that meeting, like a lot got done there,
and I'm like this, and that's one of the first
times that sat down as a man. Something got done,

(06:03):
like change the sport in terms of how it was
even even just conducted, and it was something I just
remember that that got the coaches really churning, well.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
What about this? What about this?

Speaker 3 (06:14):
And then then we did a practice year and then
a year later that O eight to nine season is boom.
It's in practice, it's being used, and now here we are,
you know, fifteen sixteen years later, that it's that. It's
the way now. Of course we know that all you know,
wrestling coaches love to find rules and exploit them because
that's just you know, you got to find you got
to find that advantage. I think every coach does that
in every sport. It's not just wrestling coaches. But you know, again,

(06:36):
a lot of good has come out of it. Again,
it's the opportunity to hear and put things together.

Speaker 6 (06:41):
There.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
There are leadership divisions, there's leadership groups, there's breakout divisions.
So what concerns the NAI coaches is not necessarily what's
on the mind of the Division one coaches. And now
we see that a lot more with the split even
within Division one. Where our topic today or part of
our topic today is is the nil the house, the settlement,
the opting in the revenue share, all of that half

(07:04):
of Division not even half, probably less than half a
Division one. Is that these power for programs compared to
the mid majors, and there's uneven playing fields in such
so we'll get to hear a lot of that now
that the house has come, that settlement has been passed,
come July one. So Glenn, we're gonna jump right in
and folks, like I said, sermon asks strap in a
lot of numbers. So let's start with what we've got

(07:28):
and we go back to a throwback you said the eighties.
We're gonna hit eighty eight miles an hour. We're gonna
hit the car that opens up like the wings. My
friend Philip Hanson's grandfather had a DeLorean in my neighborhood
in Newport News growing up, so I saw these things.
It wasn't just Marty McFly and Doc Brown, which was
a weird relationship between some really old dude and a
high school kid.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
But we won't go there.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
We're talking about the Deloreans and we're talking about clearly
you can see, Glenn.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
What's the impetus behind today's theme?

Speaker 5 (07:55):
Okay, the title is on a clear day you can
see college athletics. The reason the picture there back to
the future of the DeLorean. This was a famous book
that came out a little bit before I was an
NBA school. It was called on the Clear Day you
can See General Motors. It was basically saying that everyone
thinks everything's good with General Motors. Back in those days,

(08:17):
they led the revenue all every year for the fortune
five hundred. Now they're nowhere near the top, but they
weren't making money and they ran into trouble. So I
changed that to on a clear day you can see
college athletics. This is a three part series, as Jason said,
where Matt Stats does a business study using statistics of

(08:38):
financial data to help the viewers understand the drastic changes
in college sports. It is really confusing right now. It
is tough to understand the business of college sports. At
twenty twenty five. Matt Stats on today's show explores the revenues,
the expenses, and the profits or losses of college athletic departments.

(09:01):
In Part two and three, we will dive into conference
realignment rev share, nil roster limitations, US Congress getting involved,
potential LLCs, Title nine lawsuits, YadA, YadA, YadA.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
So the stuff that'll make your head explode.

Speaker 5 (09:17):
Yes, and the basic reason for this whole show is
we need to make sure we make college wrestling sustainable
and have a workable game plan because this is all
coming guys. Okay, We're going to see a lot of
changes and we got to be ready for them.

Speaker 6 (09:38):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
On our slide number two, it's in this episode. If
you're looking at it at home or something like that,
I want to review it. You can go back and
see what slide every episode, every topic starts on.

Speaker 6 (09:53):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
Once again.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Show notes available Mattleconline Dot com and on endb online
dot com where if you're listening in your car and
you're not driving, again, we suggest you not looking at
the show notes and slides as you're driving. So again
fair warning, but if you're not watching the video, you
need a video compliment. This slide show is available in

(10:16):
a PDF form that you can go through. So when
you hear Glenn talk about the slides, that's what we're
talking about. So right now as you start episode forty five,
dash too, that's where we're at.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
The old PowerPoint style.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
So this is also very very college I guess what's
the word, well, lecture esque as well.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
So we continue on.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Remember show notes matical online dot com, NWCA online dot Com.

Speaker 5 (10:39):
Okay, now, the Match stat Show is here to create
a library statistical analysis more. You're asked the three of
us to do this, and that's why we're here, guys,
to help the NWCA have a library for stuff that
people could go back and look at in the past.
It's not like you only have to watch us once
we release this show. You can go back onto our

(10:59):
website and watch it anytime you wish. Okay, the opinions
expressed on this show do not necessarily reflect any policies
or opinions of the NWCA.

Speaker 6 (11:11):
Nor do Gorble Briton Hazard always agree with each other
all the time.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Okay, consert without the express written instead of major League Baseball.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
While yes I have an old school Philadelphia's had on,
we need that in there.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
Okay, didn't you get that at the stadium? You got that?
Didn't you got that in person?

Speaker 5 (11:31):
Yes you are, Yes, I did. The philadelph Yea's we're playing.

Speaker 6 (11:36):
That was a good one. I was. They were actually
they were actually going before I was born.

Speaker 5 (11:42):
But there was one guy on this show who wasn't
alive with the A's were still in Philly. Okay, okay
that guy so uh Matt Status is a show based
on numbers aside opinions. We draw our opinions based on stats.
We show now each on our monthly podcast, we tell

(12:03):
you something different about a number of teams going on
right now. This is an interesting little thing, guys, right now.
As of July fifteenth, twenty twenty five, there were thirty
eight and C Double A Division two schools that have
a women's team. In two thousand and two and two
thousand and three, there were thirty eight men's and C

(12:26):
DOUBLEA Division two wrestling teams. It's now up to the
record seventy five from the low point of thirty eight
that year. But this is really showing where wrestling is growing.
We're growing as a sport, not just one sex or
the other sex, but as a sport.

Speaker 6 (12:43):
We're one sport, guys, we just have two sexes.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Okay, all right, So we've been talking about this for
a number of months and I just thought you'd like
to give an explanation of how we got into the
end of July from June and put the show out.

Speaker 6 (13:01):
Well, sure, Kevin. There's two main reasons.

Speaker 5 (13:04):
Number One, the colleges to get their financial data, they
don't use a calendar year, they use a fiscal year,
almost all of them in June thirtieth and start July first.
And also, as Jason referenced earlier in the show, the
house settlement was finally decided, you know, so we needed
more time to do all this, and it was something
so different for the three of us. We had to

(13:26):
do a lot of research on a topic that we're
not familiar with. I mean, we might be familiar with,
you know, who won the wrestling tournament this year? Okay,
but we're not necessarily familiar with all the legal thing
that went around, so that's what took us so long.
And hats off to the Night New House for getting

(13:46):
so much work done in a short period of time
putting all these schools financials up.

Speaker 6 (13:51):
I was very impressive. They did that that quickly.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
All right, so this is our episode forty five, and
we just we already talked about why are you named it?
What you did? But how about we just do a
quick preview on the new topic for this episode?

Speaker 6 (14:09):
Certainly?

Speaker 5 (14:10):
Okay, this topic, okay, I already talked about the uh
uh and there was Delarey and that was that took
all the notes on that, and that's why you know
I picked a delay card there, so.

Speaker 6 (14:22):
We already did that.

Speaker 5 (14:23):
But the topic on this show, as you see on
slide eleven, okay, is the financeial future of college athletics. Okay,
college sports seems to be in the glory years right
now if you just turn on TV and watch it. Okay,
but math status looks at the revenues, expenses, and profits

(14:44):
or losses across NCAA Division One athletic departments and how
does this affect college sports in general?

Speaker 6 (14:53):
And wrestling specifically.

Speaker 5 (14:56):
Okay, Now, part two and three of this topic we'll
deal with as I said earlier, Revshare, nil, roster, caps, conference, realignments, LLCs, YadA, YadA, YadA.

Speaker 6 (15:07):
Okay, and at the end.

Speaker 5 (15:09):
Of part three we will sit down and say this
is where we think we are and we need to
do something about it because all of us on this
show are old enough to remember college wrestling going downhill
until Moyer and a lot of other people help for
the rays we see. Now, okay, the methodology on this show.

(15:32):
I like to explain this every show so people where
we know we got this stuff. Most of the revshare
and nil statues in this episode were compiled by Patrick O'Rourke.
He's a CPA from Washington, d C. So he speaks
my language. Pat went to Washington State sumer cum Laudie
Graduate whose accounting firm services business and nonprofit organizations, which

(15:57):
colleges are the ncable Division one college. Profit and loss
data comes from the Night new House College Athletic Database.
By all means, go onto his website and find out
if you need to more about it. But the Night
Commission has back been around for a while and has

(16:18):
really helped, you know, shine some light on college athletics.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
Okay, it's Light fifteen.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
All right. So we did a lot of data and
it's great that mats that had the help of our
work and our night research. Where do we take this
data and what did we do with it?

Speaker 5 (16:40):
Okay, like Kevin just said, their Matt statues, this data
from the Knight new House thing. We let the attorneys
argue their legal case for extremely large fees and their
agents on the will deal with that, and Deloitte doing
the nil stuff. We let those guys handle that.

Speaker 6 (16:59):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (17:00):
They have their role in sports, but we are here
to explain the business of it to you.

Speaker 6 (17:07):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (17:08):
I don't think you're going to see that much on
TV media legal things about what the business really is.

Speaker 6 (17:15):
As you see on Slight seventeen.

Speaker 5 (17:17):
Colleges are non profit entities and tend not to have
profits and large reserve funds.

Speaker 6 (17:27):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
They are driven by education and not profit. Okay, and
believe me, we have a couple guys from way you
marry here and they pound that into the education education, education.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
And then everybody.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
All the sports fans who watch and gamble and do
everything on Saturdays, they're sitting there chuckling like you Okay,
you know the whole concept of that mantra, you know,
driven by education nonprofit. It's just it's such a contradiction
so many times when we see all these i mean
getting close to a billion dollar revenue deal like you know,

(18:04):
you know, multimedia contracts and stuff. So it's one of
those things, like let's use air quotes for some of
these terms, even though that is that is in their
mission statements.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
It's just it's some of those things.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
It's just they're just contradictory, which Glenn will get to
some great contradictions later in the show.

Speaker 5 (18:20):
But yeah, like the NFL is a nonprofit with quotes up,
you know, how is that possible? Okay, So there are
special tax laws for nonprofits. The departments really basically have
to spend their whole budget, okay, close to the whole
budget anyway, they can have small smaller reserve cside. All right,

(18:42):
Private schools do not disclose their financial data to the public.
So the numbers you here here are from the public
schools in the NCAA Division one. For example, Notre Dame
is a private school. We do not have the numbers
for them. I'm sure, the NCAA does, but that's different.

(19:06):
This is a show that we could get the public
numbers from.

Speaker 6 (19:10):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
One thing, I have a feeling I'm not in business
school anymore when I was going over this.

Speaker 6 (19:18):
I know I sound like the Wizard of Oz. There.

Speaker 5 (19:20):
One thing that really jumped out at me right away
is when you look at the night New Houses hard Work, Okay,
they list expenses first, then revenues and.

Speaker 6 (19:31):
There are no profit columns. Okay, that to me.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Not a normal people statement.

Speaker 5 (19:40):
That's not a normal thing whatsoever. And a lot of
times when you talk to colleges, they talk about, well
we spend this much and we have this many scholarships.

Speaker 6 (19:49):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
They love the term revenue. And it's one thing that
drives me just crazy. You know, oh yeah, revenue sport.
Well you're bringing in revenue just again being a nonprofit.
The thing is people are, oh, you know, we're a
revenue sport. Well, every sport, first of all, can be
a revenue sport if they put a little effort behind it.
That's another thing I hate the term non revenue. And

(20:13):
then one thing to consider is is the you know,
the the the Joe blow college football fan that will
take shots at swimming and wrestling and track and field
and soccer, and in some parts of the world baseball
because in the SEC we know baseball is a is
a money driver, especially with how much they spend and whatnot.
But it's like revenue. Let's not confuse revenue and profit.

(20:35):
Glenn's about to say that, well, there are no actual profits,
but let's just say when you're spending more than you
bring in, yeah, that's a business blend. Take back over.

Speaker 5 (20:47):
Okay, I'll give you a big thing on the on
a little anecdote on this. When they were in the
process of dropping William and Mary, h the athletic director
was telling me that we're not a revenue sport. I said, John,
we're the most profitable team here because we lose the
least amount of money. Okay, we were the most profitable

(21:08):
Wiem and Mary.

Speaker 6 (21:09):
Okay. They didn't take my little quote as being very.

Speaker 5 (21:14):
Humorous, okn Slide twenty.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
All right, so we you were able to look at
the current and past profit losses and a lot of
the D one. How about we start with just a
basic overview of this past year's profit losses in Nancy
DOAA D one athletic departments.

Speaker 5 (21:35):
Okay, certainly, Kevin, I would be remiss if I didn't
start this with gap versus crap. Gap is genuinely accepted
accounting principles that is used by accountants and people that
you know something about accounting, understand what that's going on.
College athletic departments are notorious for not strictly following gap.

Speaker 6 (21:56):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
I got this quote from Andy Ota Bonnezoe, former wrestler
at William and Mary. It's crap, cleverly rigged accounting principles.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
Okay, so practices, yes.

Speaker 6 (22:08):
Yeah, practices yeah yeah, thank you. Okay.

Speaker 5 (22:11):
So what this is here is when I was looking
through this, I looked through the NCAA members financial reporting statement. Okay,
there's this mysterious entry online fifty that they referred to
as excess transfers back. Okay, So it took me a

(22:32):
while to find this out. I called my accounting professor
from the eighties on this topic. Okay, he's a big
donor to William Mary track. I called an a couple
oldest assistant ads and athletic directors.

Speaker 6 (22:47):
They had no idea what was going on with this, Okay.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
It turns out that they were basically an exact match, okay.

Speaker 6 (22:57):
For student fees and institution support.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
So when you look at night New House at their
profit law statement, the profits are much the losses, i
should say, are much bigger losses than they should be.

Speaker 6 (23:12):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (23:13):
So that's why I'm pointing this out to people in
the future. After we get to a slide twenty four
year which I'll show you. Okay, we removed line fifty
and I'll show you what it means there. Okay, on
Lodge slide twenty four, Okay, the first row is institutional support,

(23:34):
then the next one the student fees. In the red
is the excess students transfers back on FCS and no
football match identically on FBS. It's just off by a
very small number. Some athletic directors, says FLIC director probably
made a clerical mistake, is why that happened like that?

Speaker 6 (23:55):
Okay, So when you get to it.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
So basically basically what's happening. They have it in his
revenue and to make the losses look worse for whatever reason,
they added it back as an expense.

Speaker 5 (24:10):
Yeah, yeah, I think Kevin, to make it look like
we're spending this much money.

Speaker 6 (24:15):
It's it's hogwash. Okay.

Speaker 5 (24:19):
You know, I hope to bump into somebody from the
NCUBLEA at the convention that might know something about this.

Speaker 6 (24:25):
I'd love to talk to them, Okay.

Speaker 5 (24:28):
Slide twenty five, there's two hundred and thirty seven public
NCAA Division one schools.

Speaker 6 (24:36):
They lost a grand.

Speaker 5 (24:37):
Total of two hundred and forty one point seven million dollars.

Speaker 6 (24:43):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (24:44):
If you include line fifty, that would be an almost
four point five billion dollar loss. Okay, So we subtracted
that out, the mysterious line fifty to get to the
two forty one Okay, guys. On the slide twenty six,

(25:05):
I gave you an example from night New House of
William and Mary, which that school in Williamsburg that no
longer has wrestling, which a couple of us here went to. Okay,
if they include line fifty, they would have lost eighteen
point five five million dollars, okay. With in reality, they

(25:27):
lost one hundred and seventy thousand. If William and Mary
would have lost eighteen point five five million, okay, I
would have heard from so many people and they'd be
out of business. They won't have anybody to write those
checks because their total revenue for the year was thirty
six million. Okay, so they won't be able to raise
another fifty percent. Okay, all right.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
All right, so let's let's stop. So let me wrap
my head around this. So certainly what when you're saying
we've got they would have lost this much, but in
actuality they lost this much. Let's just put some layman's
terms on this. I'm struggling to understand excess transfers back.
Maybe somebody else is as well. So let's let's let's
let's look at William and Mary here, because we have

(26:12):
tangible numbers here, so they're financials based on this the
MFRS statement. Okay, they lost how much money?

Speaker 6 (26:21):
I'm seventy thousand? Okay, Oh, on the books eighteen point
five to five million.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
Okay, So why why would a school want to report
an eighteen million dollar loss versus a one hundred and
seventy thousand dollars loss, Jason, I have.

Speaker 6 (26:34):
No idea, Okay.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean that's I'm not as confused as I thought
I would be.

Speaker 6 (26:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (26:43):
I spent a good part of this past month on
this topic alone. Okay, because as soon as I saw
these numbers, I said they can't be right because one
of the things is this, this statistician does if you
do something, does this look normal?

Speaker 6 (26:59):
Does this okay? The answer here was no, okay because
at the end of the year being non probably.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
You know, it's funny because you see when you look
at I've pulled some of these statements, the the f
y rs, the fiscal year reports, I've pulled FOI requests
for several schools in the past, most recently that school
in Norfolk, and looking at uh, you know, it's like, okay,
you know, revenues, you know, the expenses and revenues just
perfectly always line up at zero, when like, no, that's

(27:29):
that's just no, it's crap.

Speaker 6 (27:31):
Thing ever perfectly lines up at zero, right, you know.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
And I say crap, I don't mean crap like kaka
poo pooh. I mean, you know, crap in your accounting principle.

Speaker 6 (27:40):
Here lovely raked accounting practice.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
So anyway, so again, so wayver very the reporting. This
is the reported loss. Yeah, I struggle why would why
would somebody say we lost eighteen million dollars it be okay.

Speaker 6 (27:56):
There has to be some reason for this.

Speaker 5 (27:59):
And that's why I'd really like to talk to somebody,
somebody you know, a number clutching from the NCAA and
explain this to me.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
To explain line fifty excess.

Speaker 6 (28:09):
Because think about it, if.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Is that uniform for every school, every school has, every
public school has this on their line. Think this is
line fifty on every one of them. Yep, all right, yep,
all right, moving forward, Now.

Speaker 6 (28:21):
They have different numbers of course on there. All right. Yeah, So.

Speaker 5 (28:27):
Once again, only public schools released this data. So what
I was doing here on slide twenty eight is to
do it. This slide twenty eight shows you, okay, how
many public and private schools there are in fbs FCS
no Football which you might just see that abbreviated to

(28:50):
NF in future slides, and then the total D one
and you can sing in this as the bigger level
of football, the more likely the schools are to be
public eighty seven percent or public thirteen private. When you
go to no Football, it's only forty three percent public,
fifty percent private. Okay, and overall in Division one two

(29:12):
thirds of the.

Speaker 6 (29:13):
Schools are public.

Speaker 5 (29:15):
Now the average public school in the NCAA, because we
saw how much money they lost total in the thing.

Speaker 6 (29:24):
So let's break it down.

Speaker 5 (29:26):
The average public school loses a little over a million
dollars a year. Once remove that dubious line fifty.

Speaker 6 (29:35):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
Now what's surprising here, guys to some maybe the bigger
the school, the.

Speaker 6 (29:42):
More money they're losing. Okay.

Speaker 5 (29:45):
The FBF loses one point fourty eight million, the FCS
eight hundred and ten thousand, the no football two hundred
and fifty thousand, which we married was in the actually
one of the more financially proved in FCS schools.

Speaker 6 (30:00):
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 5 (30:03):
Now, in twenty three twenty four, the combined FBS public schools. Okay,
the big boys lost one hundred and sixty seven million dollars.
And you look at the conferences here, the SEC made
forty nine. The Big ten lost seventy eight million. Okay,

(30:26):
So we're going to get to this more Episode two
and three, Part two and three.

Speaker 6 (30:31):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
And one thing to consider too. Also, if you're watching
and you see Power five lists, and we know the
PAC twelve no longer considered a Power five conference, but
at the time these numbers you're looking at the twenty
three twenty four numbers, usually there they run a year behind.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
That's what we're looking at.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
So now now you're hearing Power four group of you know,
you know, the autonomous four with P four whatever you
want to call. But at the time, the PAC twelve
was a Power five school before the breakup of a
Power five conferences, before the breakup of what happened last
year and leaving Washington State and Oregon State's the last
two P five ish members.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
So just to clarify in the terminology there, yep.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Gorms, thank you, and gorm's. These numbers are after removing
line fifty.

Speaker 6 (31:15):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Correct.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
Everything you see now is real numbers. It's removing line
fifty or as real the numbers as you get from
a school that might use line fifty.

Speaker 6 (31:24):
Okay, now, oh.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah in line fifty.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
That's not necessarily a loss all the time easier either, right,
Sometimes that's a positive. You're like, oh, well, we need
to show we didn't make as much money. So that
is that is that EBB and flow. Almost always, if somebody.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
Did have a profit before line fifty, you could add
that in there. You might have a loss afterwards. Yes,
So some of the schools that are reporting a loss
with line fifty could have a profit without it. Yes,
jis gotch like, for example, the SEC, if you count
line fifty, the conference has a loss. But the reality is,

(32:01):
for now, what I did here, then I ran a
coefficient between the conferences the revenues and the profits.

Speaker 6 (32:11):
There's no correlation.

Speaker 5 (32:13):
So just because you're a big boy like the SEC
or the Big Ten, doesn't mean you're any more likely
or less likely to have a profit than the Sun Belt,
the MAC or.

Speaker 6 (32:25):
Anything like that.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
Okay, in the FBS level, that's an interesting thing for
people to realize that. And as you saw on the
last slide, the Big ten as a conference heading the well,
we could add Northwestern in on there, so the other
thirteen schools or Vanderbilt and the SEC the other thirteen
at that time. So don't think all the big boys

(32:47):
are making money, because there's no reason to think they are. Okay, now,
Power five schools lost.

Speaker 6 (32:56):
A total one hundred three million.

Speaker 5 (32:58):
Group of five schools lost a total of sixty five
million dollars.

Speaker 6 (33:02):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (33:03):
Slide thirty two shows you the breakdown betry the revenues
and the expenses. And you know, it's a surprise to
many people that the Power five is jasonson how it's
the Power four have lost more money than the Group
of five schools.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Okay, well then some of those P four schools have
to have that. I don't know if you've uh the
College Football podcast with Pat Forty, Dan Wetzel, Ross Dellinger,
they went and broke down line by line the the
the recruiting of arch Manning to Texas and how much

(33:41):
money that was spent on one player one player, and.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
That's the budget that's that's in the football.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
But that's not like outside donor money yet, you know,
being thrown at a recruit. This is this is not
the odds. This is not an nil thing. The amount
of money spent on the steakhouse visit, it's just it
was absurd. Absurd anyway, but football football is king of
Texas here. We're not We're not going to change anybody's mind.

(34:11):
The football is spending too much in Texas. So let's
get that out of your out of our heads right now.
That's not going to happen.

Speaker 6 (34:17):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (34:18):
So anyway, the Power five schools per school lost one
point eight four million and the Group of five schools
one point one eight million.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Okay, school, yep for school?

Speaker 6 (34:28):
All right, So all the glitters is not gold here, guys.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
Okay, just an outsider's reference sets it outside.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
Yeah, stay old, pony boy, stay gold.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
Anyway, we watched sold out football games on stadiums on
TV whatever, March madness, and we think it's a gold
mine in college sports. It's not a reality, guys, as
far as a profit or loss type situation is.

Speaker 6 (34:59):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
Now, if you go to the next slide, we show
a profit margin, okay for Fortune five hundred companies, because
the FBS athletic departments will be four hundred and nineteen
on Fortune five hundred.

Speaker 6 (35:18):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
On slight thirty six, okay, I'll get back to thirty
five or second on Slight thirty six.

Speaker 6 (35:23):
Okay. If it was based on their revenue, okay. So
the profit margin is.

Speaker 5 (35:30):
Horrible at these schools, even the top thirteen revenue schools. Now,
if we go back to slide thirty five and talk
about the top thirteen schools with revenues, the reason I
made the cutoff at thirteen is because there were thirteen
schools with over two hundred million dollars in revenues.

Speaker 6 (35:49):
Okay, In case.

Speaker 5 (35:50):
Anybody's wondering, Auburn was fourteenth, a little bit short of
it now. Jason mentioned about the recruitment of arch Manning.
Texas's revenues are three one hundred and thirty two million dollars, okay. However,
their expenses are three hundred and twenty eight million. They

(36:13):
made four million dollars okay on that kind of revenue.
And you can see the schools in the parentheses. The
Ohio State lost forty million. Alabama, that team from Tuscaloosa
lost twenty five million, LSU, Oklahoma, and Michigan all lost

(36:33):
a small amount of money.

Speaker 6 (36:35):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (36:36):
If these schools can't make it, they either spend money
like drunken salors or they really got to figure something
out because new expenses are coming down the road and
it is trouble in this thing, guys.

Speaker 6 (36:49):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
So in other words, the top thirteen schools combined made
four point two million dollars per school.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Take into consideration how many football how many football playing
FBS schools we have. That's the that's like that. That's
again we talk about uneven playing fields. That's the little guy.
That's the little percentage that actually is making money on
their their athletics programs in terms of that revenue. Now,
not looking at where a lot of these schools are

(37:21):
making money. Is the tuition dollars that these students in
non revenue sports are bringing in for the school, not
the athletic party part of that crap accounting. Whereas in
Division two Division three AIA oh, they count your bottom
line for some reason, in Division one they just ignore
that particular revenue stream. That drives me just that drives
me crazy. Anyway, thirty seven okay, moving forward.

Speaker 5 (37:44):
So anyway, the top thirteen schools are the precipice before
VEV shares and the early days of the NIL. Okay, Now,
if we go to slide thirty eight, I'll give you
another example here.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
No lands on five thirties, thirty five or thirty six,
which are where we're at with TEXTA, A and M. Like, wait,
that that's a lot. But there's more, Yes, there's more
on this.

Speaker 6 (38:11):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
What Texas A and M did when they bought out
Jimbo Fisher for seventy seven million dollars not to come
to work, Okay, Gormley could say this for Jason Hazard.
If somebody wants to pay a seventy seven million, we
will not.

Speaker 6 (38:26):
Come to work. We'll still go to the convention for fun,
but we're not going to work at it.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Okay, I'll sit here.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
I'll sit here and play darts in my speakeasy all
day and vacuum and pick up the kids from camp.
I'll do all the honey dues, all of that, no problem.
I will be a house husband.

Speaker 6 (38:44):
So Texas A.

Speaker 5 (38:46):
And M raised money to buy out Jimbo Fisher, but
they deferred the expenses. They only put twenty seven million
of it on their twenty four financials, so they don't
have to pay it all out till thirty one.

Speaker 6 (38:59):
When in real gap.

Speaker 5 (39:00):
You're supposed to the cruel system, you're supposed to match
the same period the expense of the and the revenue.

Speaker 6 (39:07):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
So that's just a little trickeration they use down there
at College Station.

Speaker 6 (39:12):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (39:13):
Slide thirty nine. Okay, the SEC is one of these conferences.
First of all, it only has two wrestling programs that
is trying to expand, and everyone thinks.

Speaker 6 (39:25):
The SEC has the answers. Okay.

Speaker 5 (39:27):
If you look at slide thirty nine, you can see
in the last six years the profits have gone from
one hundred and eighteen million steadily down the forty nine million,
and also what's increased is the institution on student fees
that do count as a revenue on these income statements. Okay,
so they're increasing their revenue from that but still losing,

(39:51):
but the profits are going down because their expenses are
going up. And Greg Shanky, if you need a guy
to help you out with stats on this, I'm available also.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
And this is something we're going to kick the can
on this topic not topic. But so when we've got
the new the twenty million dollars with the house settlement looming,
it's going to Glenn's going to bring it up throughout
the course of the series. But now the the rise
in more money that's going to be paid out to
players in select amount of sports is oddly coinciding, Glenn,

(40:27):
that might be something how many schools opt in versus
how many are raising tuition and student fees, because we're
seeing here in Minnesota they raised the tuition for in
state students andantata state students.

Speaker 4 (40:38):
Oddly enough, the same year they're gonna have to start
paying out you know, the rev share.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
So, huh, coincidence seems like there might be a statistical
correlation there, something something for a future part of the series.

Speaker 6 (40:52):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
All right, So now we we've been looking at the revenues.
Now we talked about them, where do they come from?
And what about Night New House? Can we talk about
how they what you got from them to help us
find these solutions?

Speaker 5 (41:13):
Yes, Night New House gets these numbers from the MFRS
report from the NCAA.

Speaker 6 (41:19):
And what this is. It's all the revenues.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
We have it broken down in dollar amounts and percentage
of their total revenues. Okay, and all the revenue categories.
We're going to be going over them one by one, okay,
But on slide forty one you see it as a
percentage of the total revenues, and slide forty two you

(41:43):
see the actual dollar amounts for all and these are
millions of dollars, guys. So you can see the magnitude
of the FBS with eleven point eight billion in revenues
and non football with nine hundred and seven teen millions. Okay,
there's a huge difference in these things.

Speaker 6 (42:04):
Okay. We will start with.

Speaker 5 (42:07):
Conference slash NCAA and media rights. This is essentially you
see the Balls beat Bama on TV on the third
Saturday in October. It's the amount of money the schools
get from that or you see March madness.

Speaker 6 (42:22):
The amount of money the schools get for being on
these things.

Speaker 5 (42:25):
Okay, this is twenty eight percent of the revenues for
FBS schools, only six percent for FCS, and only five
percent for non football. Because let's face the guys, the
bigger schools are on TV more than the smaller ones are. Okay,
So the next highest one is donations. Okay, twenty three

(42:48):
percent of the donations are from f are the revenues
from FBF schools eight and eight for FCS and no football.
And a lot of the reason for this, guys, is
the bigger old schools like the Notre Dames of the world,
have huge alumni bases that never went to school there
that root for Notre Dame because that's their thing.

Speaker 6 (43:10):
Okay, and give the Irish money.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
What's the term I think they use in Michigan. I
think they call those like for Michigan they call them
Walmart Wolverines. I think is the term that gets you, yes,
Subway alumni is yeah, okay, yeah, that's the other term
I was thinking about. And again I go back to
some of my friends that worked at some of these schools,
you know, like I wear an Auburn shirt because I
went to Auburn. You were an Alabama shirt because you
went to Walmart. You can also you know those type

(43:35):
of things. It's like where'd you go? I went to
like inserts now, I went to Eastern Michigan. But you're
wearing a Michigan shirt because you have so Lani's a
hop skipping a jump from ann Arbor.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
So I mean, that's that's what.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
You And again also now let's take the not not
the Walmart one. Let's put some actual credit to the
university and the when when Stanford was cutting all those
sports and then that school in Norfolk we're dropping all
those sports. The difference of the alumni the Stanford has
fortune fifty alumnis, venture capital CEOs they have, they have
like that old money legacies going through, whereas you've got

(44:11):
business owners at that school in Norfolk that have they
make seven eight figures.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
But that's that they're not dropping one hundred.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Million dollars for a library and a hockey state and
be named after him for example. So there's there's levels
to the alumni at Division one schools and those big
schools that have those big research and then they've got
that fortune fifty, the fortune five hundred. They just happen
to be an Alabama football fan. So guess who benefits
from some from the discretionary income of some of these

(44:38):
folks too. That doesn't happen at Troy. That doesn't happen
at you know, at schools like at Louisiana Tack.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah, moving forward, but it can happen at Penn. They
just got what do they just get? Drive? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (44:55):
So the next categories is ticket sales. Ticket sales are
sixteen percent for f of the revenues, five percent for FCS,
and three for uh NO football. Now, it's going to
be very difficult for these big FBS conferences to raise
their percentage to raise more revenue from football ticket sales.

(45:17):
Why do you say that, Well, it's slide forty six.
It shows you the Big ten sold ninety four percent
of all their football tickets in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 6 (45:30):
Good for them. Okay, so.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
They rely And one thing I want to point out
to down at the bottom Northwesternly, wait, what, Northwestern's in
the middle of renovating their stadium, So they're playing like
basically like a glitzed up soccer field, right on Lake, Michigan.
So they are not in their old their their their
old stadium stadium, the cool Ryan Field, like, I mean,

(45:55):
it's it's it's cool looking, but it's got that old, old,
old school architecture to it, but it's currently unplayable at
the moment.

Speaker 5 (46:02):
Yeah, and the other outliers, UCLA only selling fifty two
percent of their football tickets, okay.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
Because it's in the Rose Bowl. Yeah, it's a gigantic stadium, yep.

Speaker 6 (46:13):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (46:14):
Other revenue is compensation and benefits provided by third party
like game programs, concessions, parking camps, stuff like that. That
is eight percent for FBS, five for FCS, and four
for no football. It's really going to be hard to
raise money here because how many times can you hit

(46:35):
the same person up?

Speaker 6 (46:36):
I mean, how many times can you hit me up?

Speaker 5 (46:39):
When I'm going to a football game and I'm already
paying bigger money for the tickets with a talent fee
including in on that to go to revshare and then
you know how much you're going to get for a
bottled water and a hot dog, right, Okay.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
So unless you're Coastal Carolina, Coastal's making them free. Yeah, yes,
that's yes, I'll be curious that's going to work.

Speaker 5 (47:04):
Yeah, Okay, So Slide forty eight shows corporate ads. They're
eight percent of revenue for the big schools, three percent
for fcs, three percent for no football. And it's going
to really be difficult getting more corporate ads because a
lot of these corporations are going to give the money
directly to a player in the format of an NIL deal.

(47:27):
So once again, how many times can you can you
squeeze that juice out of the same lemon? Okay, The
away competition guarantees are only amount to one percent for FBS,
four percent for fcs, and five percent.

Speaker 6 (47:43):
For non football.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
In case you're wondering what this is, there's a reason
Troy State plays Bam, et cetera. Is to get a
big paycheck from the big school and go there and
get whooped.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
Okay, Glenn.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Through the research, you know this is one that people say, well,
that's those games are how these these these other smaller
programs like fund their departments. Not necessarily you hear about
the big ones. You hear about the big check because
you know how much is is Bethune Cookman gonna get,
you know, to play at Florida State. I mean, it's
it's like when you're bringing like Delaware State famously, for

(48:18):
I believe Delaware State forfeited a conference game in the
mech It could have been North Carolina A and team
might I think it was Delaware State a couple years
ago to play at Michigan. They forfeited a conference game
to take a by game and got beat like sixty
three to three. So those are the outliers to these
guarantee A lot of these guaranteed games aren't in the

(48:38):
six figures. They're they're going to cover your travel. So
again it's that outlier. It's the big one that you
hear about. Why is why is why is it eighty
four to none? Why is Savannah State playing Georgia? Like
those type of games are those outlier, big numbers that
is far more common to see the fifty to seventy

(48:59):
five fould. Okay, well, well you know we'll pay your
pay your travel and here's your guarantee. So again those
those big you know, getting paid five, six, seven hundred
thousand dollars so you can you can fill up, you know,
and it's wild.

Speaker 5 (49:14):
Because yeah, you hear people say all the time like well,
why would I want to watch this game? Well, you're
only going to watch one game at a time anyway,
So you know, and a lot of these big schools
are selling out their football stadiums. Whether we play Kent
State or Georgia at home.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
We sad knows, that's the reason. That's what you need,
an extra Saturday home game.

Speaker 5 (49:34):
Yeah, and then Kent State gets a big paycheck. Okay,
what is institutional support? The definition of institutional support is
revenue received from governments, direct funds from the Institution for Athletics,
operation and costs covered, and services provided by the institution

(49:58):
to athletics. But not okay, So the explanation is this
is several categories are added together to provide information about
revenue that is allocated to athletes. This revenue is not
generated by.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Athletics whose definition is that this is.

Speaker 5 (50:18):
The definition on the new market, the new house fans,
and it comes from also the ncaamfors report because they
have to give definitions for the revenues, so people are
buying large filling them out relatively the same.

Speaker 6 (50:35):
Okay, So.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
Institutional support is twelve percent of FBS revenue, forty six
percent of FCS and forty six percent of no football.
When colleges say, and they often do, that no state
money is used for college athletics, it depends what your
definition of is. Okay, I mean it's it's really not

(51:06):
a fully honest statement.

Speaker 6 (51:08):
Okay. So next, student fees, Okay.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Students trigger one for colleges in Virginia because the Cox
Bill came in, and that is one where some schools
are pointing to, well, that's the reason we had to
do this, that's the reason we had to do that.
So look up the Cox Bill in Virginia, which was
supposed to limit the amount athletics could use for student fees.
Yet the alma mater of the guy who crafted it

(51:37):
is still in still isn't in line with the coxbill.

Speaker 5 (51:42):
Go figure, Yeah, okay, so it's only four percent schools,
but twenty three percent for fcs and thirty for no football.
I remember when I was helping out William and Mary,
the student fees were like three quarters of all the revenue, okay,
and then they just couldn't continue to raise them and

(52:03):
stuff like that, and it really put us in a
bund Okay. Jason mentioned the cockpill of Virginia's has limited that.
So these schools are in big trouble if they're opting
in to rev share and all that stuff, because they
really can't find a lot more places for revenue. Okay,

(52:25):
the huge percentage of from institutional support student fees are
seventy percent and seventy six percent for fcs and not football. Okay,
I don't know what to tell you. Those schools are
in trouble to begin with. Okay, before all this happens
Slide fifty four.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
All right, so we've been talking about it, and it
does seem a little concerning when you look at it.
What was your biggest concern when you looked at the
revenue side of the financials.

Speaker 5 (53:02):
It's a huge percentage from institutional sport and student fees.
As a matter of fact, the schools that get the
most money in Division one from student fees are James
Madison and that school Norfolk. Okay, fifty five million and
thirty two million, respectively of their revenues come from their

(53:23):
student fees. If there is a cap on this or
they really can't get around it, I don't know how
in the world they're going to deal with revenue share
at James Madison, because that becomes an expense.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
And I wanted to bring this up. So there's the
Triple Option podcast which it was sent to me this week,
and there was a line in there that used that
school in Norfolk as an example, and it was urban Meyer.
Who you know, say which one about Eurmeyer? Anyway, he
points out about going to the NCAA convention and it says,

(53:58):
looking around, and why is there why is the commissioner
of a sun belt in this associate ad from old
Dominion in there in the conversation. The reason was, like,
they're not driving the boat, they're not making any decisions,
Like they're not like institutions Ohio State and that school
and let's use Troy instead of ye old alma mater.

(54:19):
They're not the same. They're not They're never going to
be the same. And the fact that some of these
G five athletic departments feel like they need that, I
think fairness. Yeah, if you're going to play in a playoff,
well one, the playoff system and FBS is ridiculous. If
every other level of college football can figure it out,
and they can't, it's ridiculously stupid. So that's the common

(54:42):
sense thing. But they're not the same. Then like institutions
have like problems. These smaller institutions now are creating more
problems trying to be like the Ohio States of the world.
So and again, the point that urban Meyer had made
was like, it's bad leadership that's driving the boat at
these schools. So that's an interesting it was an interesting conversation.

(55:03):
So go find it. The triple option. I was going
to try to play it here on this episode. It's
about forty two minutes in. I've got a clipped on YouTube,
so I'll look for it there. So the triple option.
It was erb Meyer was talking about the two thousand
and six I think Rose Bowl game. I think it was,
but it was forty two minutes in Mac Brown's on
that episode Vin Young, So that's that'll help you find it.
But that was like, it was like a one minute clip.
I'm like, yeah, And I normally don't agree with you know,

(55:26):
a lot of what the P five says about college
sports because they don't live in a reality of how
ninety percent of college athletes exist, which is poor and
using you know, coffee filters for toilet paper in some cases.
Sorry for the visual, but you know, I thought that
that information was quite pertinent and relevant coming from a
guy that, Yeah, guess what, you're not like us, stop

(55:47):
trying to be You're just creating more problems.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
For your owns. So anyway, that's more, that's more acquire
appreciate type of thing going on.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
And then slide fifty six is a repeat of one
we showed earlier, and what it shows is the combination
of institutional supporting student fees, the percentage of the revenues
from the following categories FCS no football in total. That, Kevin,
answer your question is the biggest concern of what's going

(56:16):
on if you look at the FBS schools. Okay, once again,
the Big twelve's the Pac twelves not in this anymore,
but in the past they were. On slide fifty seven,
you could see the percent of those conferences. And as
Jason mentioned, those schools in the group of five, they're

(56:36):
not the same as the schools of the Power five.
And a lot of those schools and the Power five
are not the same as each other.

Speaker 6 (56:43):
Okay, so.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Yeah, let's go back to the Walmart World warning thing.
Where is your Eastern Michigan alum more likely to go
a football game at the ash Trade that they call
the factory or the big house. It's college football fanom
is driving. Okay, no matter how much you want your
school to be on par with the big boys, it's
not going to be because as much as we hate

(57:07):
to say this, it's it's it's the it's capitalism, it's
it's the demand for big time college football.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
I say this all the time.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
I love college football, but I hate college football because
I love other college sports. I love Olympic sports. So
you know that's what drives it. We can we can
tell this to the biggest college football fan of the world.
It's not going to change your opinion. They're still going
to watch Bama, South Carolina. They're still going to watch
Florida Georgia. They're still going to watch A and M
in Texas, They're still gonna watch They're still going to

(57:34):
be watching the Hawaii game so they can bet something
at FanDuel at one o'clock in the morning, Like that's
gonna happen. You're not going to change the opinion of
that sports fan. The issue with what we're trying to
do is educate everybody. It's like, look, it's not it's
just because you're bringing in a ton of money doesn't
mean you're making a lot of money. You know, at
the end of the day, your wallet's still kind of empty, right,

(57:55):
So that's the impetus. We're not taking shots at football
for for being the culprit, even though it's it's the
bad leadership with football that's that's really spiraling all of
this downhill. And then you know where we're collateral damage.
Gymnastics is collateral damage, Volleyball, track and field, tennis is
getting decimated. So another soapbox moment, Glenn, Sorry.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Continue, That's okay, and it's gonna get worse.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
It'll get worse in Division one. I think Division two,
Division three, and the ani A are just gonna still continue.
They're gonna they're gonna keep you know, the schools that
they're gonna read the benefits from the from the from
the the DSA is when they time out, does it?
Student athletes with the roster caps, they've got to go somewhere.
They're gonna end up trickling down. So we may see
more small programs added on this, but again, small programs

(58:42):
don't move the eaters. As valuable as Grand View and
Wartburg are to the landscape of college wrestling and the
high school coaching in the state of Iowa. Let's use
Iowa for an example that it doesn't move the needle.
The fan at the NCAA Division tournament really doesn't care
about them, just like the college football fan that's watching
SEC Saturdays doesn't care about Troy and Louisiana tack.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
They just don't.

Speaker 6 (59:07):
Yeah, yep, granted.

Speaker 5 (59:09):
Okay, to sum up the revenue side of things, I
have one piece of advice for everybody. Colleges do not
use the same methods that Delorian used to finance his
car enterprise. Okay, you gotta find revenue from somewhere, but
that was not a good idea. Okay, Slide fifty nine.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
All right, So we talked about the revenues. Now let's
talk a little bit about expenses. Where does the money
expenses go for these NCAAD one schools.

Speaker 6 (59:44):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (59:44):
We did the same thing on slide sixteen sixty one,
where we show the percentages and then the total dollars spent. Okay,
on all the different expenses. Now, if people asking the
facilities of debt is a different line entry than the
debt and slide forty five, Okay, there are two different

(01:00:06):
categories here aver. Okay, it's a confusing topic and stuff
like that. I don't want to drag it out. But
the debt there is not necessarily the debt that should
be a balance sheet and set of an income statement.
So it's okay, it's just this or the expenses that
are on there, Okay, Slide sixty three.

Speaker 6 (01:00:31):
Instead of going over each.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
Expense line by line like we did on the revenues,
it's going to be.

Speaker 6 (01:00:39):
Harder to do it.

Speaker 5 (01:00:40):
Cutting expenses to balancing a budget could be one of
the most difficult things to do in governments and college
If they're public schools, they're government affiliated, Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:00:52):
The Ohio state. That means the state of Ohio owns them. Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:00:57):
We did a case study in grad school. There's an
interactive seminar. This is way back when and let's just
say Gormley Bryant Hazard had to figure out how we're
going to cut the balance the federal budget, and the
rest of the class made arguments on why it wouldn't work.
And we'd say one thing, and somebody would say, well,
now I'm from Kansas and we need that.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 5 (01:01:19):
Okay, well there's a reason why we haven't had to
balance budgets since Eisenhower.

Speaker 6 (01:01:25):
Okay, And there is a reason we haven't had no
debt since Andrew Jackson.

Speaker 5 (01:01:30):
Okay, because it's almost impossible for governments to balance their budgets.

Speaker 6 (01:01:35):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Now, if you really want to have fun, go through
this with somebody at the bar one day or drinking
some beers and see what you want to cut. Okay,
this is going to turn into a bad situation. At
every college when they were dropping we mary wrestling. No
other coaches helped us out or nobody else in the department.

(01:02:01):
It was wrestlers versus the world, because the other coaches
wanted their teams to stay and the other staff members
on the athletic department wanted to keep their jobs.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Yeah, it's one thing I always wondered why back in
the day, Why would I always wondered before women's wrestling
was a thing U And that was sadly that that
has been a thing for that that wasn't a thing
for too long. We look at why wouldn't they Why
don't the wrestlers at this school, you know, team up

(01:02:34):
with this women's sport from this school to work together.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
It's just no it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
It's it really becomes you know, protect your like you said,
c ya, you know, and that can mean a couple
of different things, a couple different people, but that's at
the bottom line. You got to look out for number
one or else you're going to end up stepping in
number two. To quote the great poet Laureate Ridey danger Field,
it's like you've got yeah, stay out of the firing line.

(01:03:00):
The cut wrestling, we're getting away from it. It's like
you are the Scarlet Letter. Immediately, I'm throwing all sorts
of movie references at you, and literally references. Wow, I've
done the Scarlet Letter and and Outsider's references here. So
you're you're just bad bill of goods. As soon as
you're nobody wants to help you. So I guess that's how.

Speaker 4 (01:03:14):
You're explaining it. And wayman, Mary, right, Glenn, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
It's exactly how I'm explaining you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:18):
I mean, nobody wanted to be around me and Pinkers
when they were dropping us. But let's face it, if
they were dropping somebody else and the wrestling team was saved,
me and Pikers want to help them out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
I mean, I'll look at it and I'll bring this
up because I get in arguments all the time with
the fan base from ye old alma mater and the fallous,
the just the farce that was doctor Richard Sanders report
on the consulting that he did as a member of
East Tennessee States University's faculty. Now was there ad shortly

(01:03:54):
thereafter paying one school to tell another school what to cut.
And then it was framed that it had to be
somebody has to be gone, so they framed it it's
men's soccer, baseball or wrestling. Well that it was a
complete no, you didn't have to cut anything. That's what
you sold to the That's that's how this consulting thing
was put. And so you've got the baseball fan base attacking.

(01:04:17):
You know, we're fighting back like ah, and they're like, well,
you know, sorry, get over it. Well we had to
cut something. You're not going to cut the more popular sports.
That's what they wanted us to do is start infighting.
Let me put it against the sport versus sport. When
it was bad leadership against everybody else. Now they're seeing
the bad leadership and they're starting to come around with oh,
well you were you were kind of right, So putting

(01:04:38):
the team's fan bases against each other is a calculated move.
So of course, the less popular sport in terms of
the fan base, in terms of less popular sport in
terms of TV dollars or potential to be on TV
and potential revenue, they start getting turned on each other.
And that's what happened in some small degree at that

(01:04:58):
place in Norfolk. And I'm seeing it every time I
sit there and I see what's going on when the
coach at two of the Save Sports our buddy buddy
with said athletic directors.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
So you know, that's another thing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
It's like, you know, when they're going to find a
way to get ready, they're going to find a way
to get ready, and they're going to do everything they
can to twist that knife and put you against each other.
So that's one thing I learned from my own personal
experiences is like and then you become you become a pariah,
you become personon on grata. They don't answer you, they
stop answering wrestling questions. I'm cleaning out my office the
other day. I contributed some money for the stadium renovation

(01:05:33):
with the bricks, got my name on it. I put
it on Facebook, what do I do with this brick?
And almost I think every response was throw it through
a window. And I'm not going to say I who
not going to do that. I don't know where the
brick went. Gave it to my wife to take care
of whether or not I see it. It's another point.
So that's what they do when they when they cut
Glenn and Kevin's program, when they cut my program, when
they cut programs, they're going to put the fan base

(01:05:54):
against that program as well.

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
It's a calculated move, agreed, So be prepared for that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
And guess what if you're a baseball fan at ex school,
don't turn your back on that programming. But oh sorry,
it's not me. You have bet you have better resources
pulling together and fighting a wrong for the greater good
of your university versus Oh no, we're gonna cut our
scholarships for a year. Oh we can't cut our Scott.
You know what, they don't care about you either. That's

(01:06:22):
all I'm gonna say. Sorry, So another soapbox moment over.

Speaker 6 (01:06:25):
As well, said Jason. It's slide sixty five.

Speaker 7 (01:06:29):
I get so fired up on this stuff, all right,
So and just just the preface on this, we talked
about the college where it is right now, expenses and revenues,
and I have to think this is I think we're
very close to repeat of what happened to college sports.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
You know, with Title nine, we're getting the same kind
of factors kind in and it took a number of
years for it to get shaken out. I think we're
going to see the same thing now. It's going to
take a while for this to shake out. Unintended consequences
haven't even been seen yet. It's going to be at
least four or five years before we really see the

(01:07:17):
full full influence of what just happened.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
You brought up, and you brought up Title nine. Kevin too,
and Glenn brought this up. And again we're not gonna talk.
This is not about what happened with the safe harbor
and the ocr's definition of that led to so many
drops back in the late eighties early nineties, when safe harbor,
especially around ninety two, became the buzzword. Oh pro one,
safe harbor. Okay, it became a math problem. Now we're

(01:07:43):
looking at what's happened is like especially Division one, they've
basically cut so many men's sports you really can't cut.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
Anymore and blame Title nine.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
The last fifty years all be like you go, well,
Title nine, that's on the books for fifty years. It
is in every athletic director's directive as far as job
responsibilities as Title nine compliance. So when you create a
Title nine problem, that is you creating a failure that
is not the laws problem. That is not the laws.
The law didn't tell you that run your athletic department

(01:08:17):
so badly. We need to cut a sport where basically
we've hit that critical minimums. You can't cut anymore. There's
no more to cut the minimum a division one of
six men's sports. So what's going to happen. You're going
to start seeing schools whittling down when wrestling was already cut,
Tennis has already taken a hit. You know a lot
of international students. We don't know what's going on there.
So we're going to start seeing like, you can't cut anymore.

(01:08:37):
It's going to start coming from somewhere else, and it's
going to start coming from those revenue sports revenue air quotes.
It's going to start coming from baseball, It's going to
start coming from Oh, it's going to start coming from track.
It's like, oh, well, what else We've got only these
schools left. Now we're going to start cutting down. Arthur Bryant,
the famed Title nine lawyer, he's back. He's got his
own firm specific for Title nine.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
You don't think are going to go after this nil
and the payments is going to go this much to
men's basketball and this this little bit to women's basketball.
We got more Title nine lawsuits coming, folks. And guess what,
wrestling's not going to get the slashy slashy like like
you know we thought it did back in the eighties
and nineties. It's gonna slash from Everybody's gonna feel the
slash now, and everybody's gonna point that finger right at
football manmula and I'm my problem, so be prepared for

(01:09:22):
that too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Thank you, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
Sorry, I'm not a rant today, man, I'm ran. It's
just been rant episode. I didn't expect this.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
It's been sixteen yeah, and a little bit I said earlier.
It's due to the confluence of many factors. The business
of college sports is entering a turbulent and dangerous era.
And we'll get more into that in the next two
shows it's light. Twenty one colleges don't follow gap get

(01:09:52):
generally affected accept accounting practice, so it's really hard to
follow their profits and losses now and in the pass.
Number three colleges used the dubious that should be probably
capitalized expense category excess transfers back, which make their losses

(01:10:13):
look worse than they really are. And if this book
bookkeeping tricks factored out, the four point five billion dollar
loss for all public schools NCAA D one public schools
became a more accurate two hundred and forty million dollar loss,
still substantially substantial, but not is debilitating. Number four the

(01:10:38):
average athletic department in public colleges lost a million dollars
in twenty three, twenty four, fbs lost one point four, eight,
fcs lost point eight, and non football loss point twenty
five five. The thirteen schools with two hundred plus million
in revenues had a profit margins of one point eight percent.

(01:11:03):
Fortune five hundred average profit margin was ten percent, So
even the schools making huge revenue are nowhere near as
profitable as they should be if they were run like
a business.

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
Glenn, how long would the greenleaf have been open. If
you ran that bar like the like some of these
schools run their athletic department.

Speaker 6 (01:11:24):
We'd be close as soon as that one keg right out.
You know, we went last a month. We went lasted
a month.

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
Parking lot would still be terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Number six, Goyd Kevin all right, Number number six and
slides forty two to fifty three. We explained why it
was difficult to raise the revenues enough to upset future expenses. Again,
we're going to talk about that in the next two shows.
Number seven. All NCAA D one public schools revenues from

(01:11:58):
institutional support plus student fees are twenty nine percent of
total revenues. For fcs and non football there's seventy percent
six percent. That's enormous. Number eight, Slide sixty one shows
the staggering amount of money college athletic departments spent. They

(01:12:20):
spend money like drunken sailors, but at least drunken sailors
spend their own money. And you know, we talked a
little bit. I'm a little aside here. We talked to you, Glenn.
You brought up about Texas or Jason did spent on
archmen on one recruit and they made money. They probably

(01:12:44):
would have made a lot more money if their recruiting
budget wasn't so crazy. Number sixty two Slide sixty two.
College athletic departments are about to be more than ever
you know, head ducked in this and it'll cover your
you know your a atmosphere and number ten. In episodes

(01:13:09):
episode forty six and forty seven, Matt Stats will discuss
other revenue share, roster caps, nil, and other factors that
are going to really rock the collegiate sports landscape.

Speaker 6 (01:13:23):
Perfect, Thank you, Kevin. I just want to say this.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
Our next episode comes out Wednesday, August twentieth. It'll be
just like you guys all know this Part two on
this where we will discuss at length the rev share,
of the roster limits and the nil and then we'll
move to part three of this show. Anything you guys
need to say, Jason to Kevin before I wrap it up.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Yeah. Part two will also be a celebration of my
forty sixth birthday.

Speaker 6 (01:13:49):
Oh wow, okay, I'll be in bol I'll be.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
In Bulgaria by the way, at the U twenty World Championships,
so we'll definitely be recording that one before I leave
the country to add country number thirty two to my list. Yeah,
as we record this, U seventeen's are going on right
now in Athens, So.

Speaker 5 (01:14:07):
Okay, alright, guys, and to all the viewers and the
rest of the coaches, we look forward to seeing you
guys at the convention here in a couple of days,
and until then, head up, elbows in.

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
Red alert.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
See yuh