Commentary Track: The Wolf Man (1941)

Happy Halloween! Celebrate the season by listening to our commentary track for 1941's THE WOLF MAN, one of the crown jewels of Universal's Classic Monsters era! Lots of trivia and laughs as we talk through the chiller starring the iconic Lon Chaney Jr. as Larry Talbot. Needless to say, we hope to have you howling by the time it's done!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome Friendsis podcast podcasting. Don show Jackie again, Bryan. They're
talking to movie podcast on.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Ready Welcome to a movie film commentary track. My name

(00:34):
is Zaki is signed. I'm here with Brian Hall.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hey, how's it going to Zachi?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Brian, I'm very excited to have our conversation today.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
I am too, because I was just telling you off
Mike that this is the first classic universal monster movie
I've ever watched. Wow. Yeah, I mean in Mummy, Frankenstein.
I haven't seen any of them. So this is in
a way like kicking me off into a whole new world.
So I was kind of excited to get started here.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
A whole new world of gods and monsters.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah yeah, which is always like my go to cinematrix
bick for Brendan Fraser. That gets me great points.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I should say that that relevant to our screening for today.
I was able to use Lawn Cheney Junior on Cinema
Trix a couple of weeks ago, and I got the
coveted zero percent.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
You did you sent that to me? Zero percent? That
makes me think of Homer at bat when the players
are being hypnotized and the guy the hypnotist is like
asking them to give a ten percent and they're like,
you cannot give more than one hundred. How did you
get zero percent?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
You did it. People did not realize that Lawn Cheney
Junior is in the movie High Noon, So go figures good,
that's that's where my early film Nerdery comes into play.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Hey, so we are watching The Wolfman from nineteen forty one.
The timing seemed appropriate because there is, of course the
new version, directed by Lee Wanel in theaters right now
as we record this, and so I kind of nudged
Brian a little bit. I put a little bit of
Wolf's bin under his nose, and I said, hey, how

(02:26):
about talking through the original Wolfman? And then I sweetened
the deal by saying it's sixty nine minutes and fifty
five seconds.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Unbelievable. Yeah, an hour and nine minutes.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
And so here we go. We're gonna do this is
gonna be a lot of fun. I'm excited to dive in.
So let's say we do it. Let's do it, all right,
So we are watching, Like I said, this is the
nineteen forty one film. There are, of course other films
called The Wolfman, but this is the og and if
you want to watch along with us, you can. If not,
you know, we'll try to make this experience as painless

(02:59):
as possible. Hopefully you won't have to hit us in
the head with a silver top yes to make us
go away. So we'll go on three one two three play?
All right, one two three play.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
You know what was fun about seeing this old Universal
logo here was it reminded me. The first thing it
makes me think of is Back to the Future three
oh sure, yeah, because right that came out in nineteen ninety,
which was the seventy fifth anniversary of Universal Studios, So
they showed little snippets of all of the versions of
their logo throughout the years. Yep. So I associate this

(03:39):
really old, sparkly one with that movie.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I like how the movie starts with that great statement
of the Wolfman theme dud duh, yeah, and we hear
versions of that throughout. But also as as the movie starts,
you sort of get this this list of names. And
I don't think any of these actors were huge stars,
but they were familiar enough to audiences that their presence

(04:04):
was worth sort of trumpeting up top. You know. Claude
Rains obviously, Well, he was in Cosablanca the year after this,
but he had starred in The Invisible Man, you know,
about to ten years earlier, give her a little under
ten years and very well known. And then it ends
with Lon Cheney credited, you know as the Wolfman. But

(04:25):
what's interesting is, of course he's not Lawn Cheney. He's
not even Lawn Cheney Junior. He's Creighton Cheney and he,
you know, his father, Lawn Cheney Senior, was of course
a legendar. He was the Man of a thousand Faces
during Hollywood Silent Era, a horror icon. He played, you know,
the Hunchback of Notre Dame. He played the Phantom of

(04:46):
the Opera, which you know you've seen horrifying version.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah face. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
So he did not want his son to become an actor.
His son did want to become an actor, and after
his father passed away, he went into stage and I
he wanted to make a name for himself separate from
his father. But the irony is they were like, well,
we don't want Creighton Cheney, we want Lawn Cheney junior. Sure, sure,
he had to change his name to reflect his dad.

(05:12):
And then eventually the junior was dropped too, and he
was just Lawn Cheney, So separating himself from his father
ends up becoming his father. I mean, it's there's some
weird Wolfman overtones there, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
That's really funny. Yeah, that feels like that almost plays
indirectly to the remake we just saw. They need to
be the themes that are.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Now the film originally now worth mentioning the movie is
set in Wales, although you would not know that because
it's never mentioned in the in the In the film itself.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
There was a moment when I wondered, I realized that
I wasn't aware of its location.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah. Yeah, they kind of set it in this this
sort of a fantasia where it's like aspects of the
twentieth century aspects of the nineteenth century. I mean, it's
it's meant to exist in the timeframe that it was made.
It's meant to be set in the nineteen forties, although
you know, it is like a fantasy world, and it

(06:07):
helps that's it's black and white and it feels sort
of distant to us anyway, right.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Now, if you look at Cheney next to Claude Rains,
it's hard to see Cheney as the son of Claude Rains.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I yes, I was sort of doing a double take here.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, well, I was gonna say.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
We joke a lot of times with people in the
past where they look a lot older than we imagine.
That's true, they're actual ages. You know, they'll look like
forty nine, but they're actually, you know, twenty seven.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
So Cheney was thirty five when he made this. Yeah,
he's about seventeen years younger than Rains. So you certainly
like mathematically it works, yes, But as written originally and
as it was to be filmed, he was not Larry Talbot.
He was Larry Gill and he is a hand man

(07:00):
who comes to Scotland to help set up Sir John
Talbot's telescope m and he ends up getting pulled into
the events of the film, and the studio decided very
late in the game he should be his son. And
what's interesting to me about that is I think that
certainly explains the the casting, you know, seeming you know,

(07:25):
a little awkward, right, But I do think in terms
of story structure, that was a good choice and I
think it really gives the movie a much more of
a heart separate from you know, the specific werewolf trauma
that Larry endures.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, I agree with that, you know, Yeah, I mean
there's something like a sad, twisted fate sort of thing
if it's just a random person who's not even supposed
to be here, you know, or not destined to be here,
who succumbs to this sort of thing. But yeah, I agree.
I think he gives the film a lot more heart.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
I use the word destined. That's also appropriate because at
one point while this movie is being developed, the studio
was a little antsy about the title The Wolfman, and
so the working title was Destiny, but they went back
to they went back to The Wolfman. This scene right here,
if you watch it, it feels like one of the
few remaining Larry Gill scenes in the movie.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
Hmmm, oh you mean so it was changed during No.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well no, I think it was changed just before. But
this scene feels like they made very few tweaks, you know.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Sure, sure, if they are going through the pages and
tweaking some of the language, maybe this one had the
least amount.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Of chat's I applied.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
I see.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
So. Laun Cheney is just terrific in this role.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Before this movie, he he was perhaps best known for
having played Lenny in a version of Meis and Men.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I can see that.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, and he was terrific in that too. Sure. He
always he called the Wolfman his baby because he was
the only actor to play the Wolfman.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah. Yeah, I was surprised to see that. So several sequels,
but other actors played you know, the same monsters in
their sequels in their respective series, right, So that's that's interesting.
So yeah, I could see he would probably feel a
lot of ownership.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, Cheney. You know. Historical footnote is that he was
the only actor to play all four of Universal's Marquis monsters,
and he was the only actor to play the Wolfman.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
H wow.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
So he played a Dracula and son of Dracula. He
played the Frankenstein monster in Ghost of Frankenstein, and he
played the Mummy in a couple movies. But from from
the Wolfman to Abdam Castello Meet Frankenstein, five times Larry
Talbot appeared, and it was always Lon Cheney.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
And you know, as a kid, you know, I've mentioned
it a few times that that I loved the Universal
Monster movies as a kid, and and what I loved
about them is that I didn't find them scary. I
found them sympathetic, you know, m hmm. Certainly the Frankenstein
Monster and the Wolfman and Wolfman is always my favorite.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, oh okay, you know, And.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
And it's because it's because you you relate to what Larry's.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Going through, right, yeah, yeah, And and.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
You know, I think there's something about about the werewolf
mystique that when we look when we look at werewolf
stories today, I don't think we even realize how much
they are indebted to this movie, in particular for really
laying out the template that were wolf stories follow.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I was curious about that so well. And I just
want to agree with you saying that it's relatable because
it's it's a change against your will, you know, even
like getting a cold or something. You know, you're like,
I don't want this to happen to my body, but
I'm going to endure it anyway, now, you know, like
it's it's it's very relatable. But this is obviously times ten. Yeah,

(11:05):
becoming a monster and you don't you're not choosing this.
It's happening to you. I even saw that. You know,
there are essays about how this could be you know,
some sort of metaphor for like puberty or something even
Yeah sure, but yeah sorry continue, Uh well, well that
all being said.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
As for for as as relatable and and tragic a
figure Larry Is, I always feel like this sequence here
as he flirts with with Gwen Conliffe played by Evelin anchors,
It always I find it unnerving because me too, I'm like,
was it effective back then? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
I had the exact same thought. So when he's looking
through the telescope and he sees her, I was thinking,
you know, back to the future, he's a peeping tom.
But I wasn't sure if this was fun and flirtatious
or if I'm supposed to feel like, leave her alone book.
That's right. She said no more than like a few.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Times, and and and she's engaged, which I was thinking
about the Hayes Code back then, and I feel like
this was probably skirting right up against that, because you know,
the idea of I mean, you know, back then, the
idea of flirting with an engage woman would be tantamount
to adult tree, you know, based on the morality that

(12:24):
was enforced by the Haze Code. So it feels like
they were probably butting right up against what was acceptable. Interesting,
But tell me about your thoughts as you were as
you were watching the film, Things, things that jumped out
at you, well.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, going with what you're just talking about right now.
I did see and again, I you know, we weren't around,
so I don't know the culture at the time, but
just going off of what other people have written, what
I was brushing up on, it was interesting that people
pointed out at this time, when men would pursue women heavily,
they were known as wolves, you know. I mean you

(12:58):
think of those old tex Avery cars tunes, you know,
with the guy his head turns into a wolf's head
and he's whistling and his tongue falls out of his
mouth and things like that. So I was maybe it's
intentional that he's being kind of pushy here, and it's
sort of a type he's playing. But again, you and
I don't know really, but yeah, no, oh, that was

(13:19):
the thing I wanted to dig into a little bit more.
You started with this movie setting up the template for
the wolfman mythos, because I obviously I know silver bullets,
I know the full moon, and so I was kind
of surprised when we never got a shot of the moon,
yeah in this or a silver bullet you know, when
it was just silver itself on the handle of this

(13:42):
cane was enough to kill a were wolf. So it
seems this was sort of the well, actually I want
to ask, I mean, were there were wolfman stories before this?

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (13:55):
But they didn't have these rules, that's right.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, Well, so there there had been stories about about
were wolves, but nothing formalized, right, Like, it wasn't like like,
for example, when we look at the Universal monster cannon,
you know Frankenstein, Well, that's pulling from Mary Shelley's book track,
pulling from Stokers, etcetera. Right, this was not This was

(14:19):
inventing a mythology out of a whole close. In fact,
kritsy Odmak, who wrote the movie, was essentially told, hey,
we're making a movie. It's called The wolf Man. You've
got ten weeks. Come up with something.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Interesting, okay.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, And the Universal had tried before they were They
were in the early thirties. They were going to make
a movie called The Wolfman with wors Karloff, and there
was a script written for that by Robert Florey. It
ended up not being made, not being used, and then
in thirty five, they made The Werewolf of London, which

(14:56):
was almost like the prototype for this in terms of
what worked and what didn't, Right. I think that movie
has some things that are interesting, but I think the
lead character is played by Henry Hull. He's not very
pleasant and so you don't feel as much investment in
his particular trauma. The other thing that's, you know, the makeup,

(15:16):
because Jack Pierce, who designed the wolf Man makeup for this,
he also did the makeup there, and in fact the
creature designed for this movie was probably his intention for that.
But that film, which is about it's about a botanist
who ends up, you know, turning into a werewolf. The
plot hinges on people recognizing him and oh, doctor Glendon

(15:40):
attacked me, right, so you have to like so he
could he had to be wolfish, but not to wolfish,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Right? Right?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
And so I think Jack Pierce probably put it in
a drawer came back to this, you know, six years later.
But what Siodmack did in terms of the notion of well,
the the you know the gypsy uh uh aphorism, right,
you know, even a man who's pure at heart says

(16:07):
prayers by night they become a wolf when the wolf
band booms and the autumn moon is bright. I did
that from memory, by the.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Way, that's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
I was wondering, actually, right, you can tell you know,
I was a fan of this movie as a kid.
But here's what's interesting is that saying which people like, oh,
it's a gypsy saying it's not. It's curtsy oldmockt you know,
but it feels like it. It feels truthy.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can imagine that's something the kids say,
you know, on the playgrounds.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
So so that sag was tweaked for frank Stein Me's
the wolf Man, you know, four years later, and it
became when the when the moon is full and bright.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Right, which is probably then what I'm more familiar with,
like if there's a full moon, watch out exactly.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
So it was kind of a moving target, like they were,
and and silver bullets weren't induced until House of Frankenstein,
you know. So there was there was this collective figuring
out of these things that we all sort of agree, oh, well,
that's what you have to include in a were wolf story,
you know. But I think ultimately the reason the movie

(17:18):
works is sort of the tragedy of Larry Talbot, right,
And I think I think notwithstanding his borderline, you know,
creepy not borderline, let's just say, creepy behavior with Gwen,
he's still a likable guy and so we do feel
that investment in seeing him navigate this, you know.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean I was aware of
all this stuff, like Frankenstein he's the Wolfman and sort
of you know, in my brain. But so it really
did it really was a cinematic universe. I mean, there
were just crossover films and it was it was the
first cinematic universe. Yeah, but it did not become one

(18:02):
until Frankenstein.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Meets the Wolfman.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
So this, you know, this is the lesson for Universal
with all their Dark Universe business. It's like, no, you
start by just making movies that people want to see
and then and then you know, you go where the
story takes you. And what's funny is if Frankstein meets
the Wolfman was initially pitched as a as a joke.
I think OMK was like, what are you gonna do next?
Franken Sein me is the wolf Man. They're like, yeah,
that sounds great, right there, Oh.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, they're like Frankenstein dollars sign, Wolfman dollars Stein and
then the dollar signs come together.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Ah yeah, yeah, because because you know, the the early
pictures in the cycle. We're talking early thirties, so you
had Dracula, which kicked the whole thing off, Frankenstein, Bride
of Frankenstein, they were, oh and Son of Frankenstein they were.
They were prestige pictures. Well less less so Son of Frankstein.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, okay, uh, the.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Invisible Man, you know, like James Wale did Frankenstein Bride
and and the Invisible Man. These were not they weren't
exploitation movies.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
That's what I was wondering. I was wondering if they
were sort of like pulp style movies, you know, for
kids on a Saturday.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Definitely not when the cycle started, Okay, they were. They
were prestige pictures. And people always ask me. People always
ask like people come up to me, and when I
am asked, I should say, yeah, what what what are
the best ones? I always I always say Bride of
Frankenstein is the best. One likes to hear that, Yeah,
and it's important and what it did. Is out of

(19:36):
all of them, I would say that is the best.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Can you give me like a little I mean, maybe
we'll get to that movie someday. I actually I would
enjoy that to go through these, But can you give
me a little reason why that is? Why that one specifically?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Well, a couple of things. Number one, I think I
think James Whale, who directed it, had a very specific
vision that was teased in Frankenstein. But that was still
made at a time when you know, movies didn't have
full music scores and things like that, you know, so
there's some pieces missing. And then obviously you had you

(20:07):
have Carloff as the Monster, Elsa Lanchester as the Bride's
very iconic. I mean, you know what she looks like,
even that having seen the film, right, and and I
think Bride in particular paints the most sympathetic portrait of
the monster as as as played by Karloff. So it's
just it's just a it's it's like scary and funny

(20:30):
and sad, all those things together so so effective, you know.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay, But that all being said, uh, I think that's
the best. The Wolfman is my favorite. Okay, that's my
you know, uh, this is the one I've I've seen
the most. Yeah, any way, that the gypsy who's going
to exit the picture. But but Bayla Bayla, the gypsy
played by Bayla Lugosi, who you know, he's most known

(20:57):
for having played Dracula. But what what's somewhat ironic is
he only played Dracula twice, once in nineteen thirty three
and then once, you know, in the fifties with Admin
Costello meet Frankenstein. So in other words, he was in
the first Universal Monster picture and the last, and that's it.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, and I mean, frankly, from my experience, I know
that that person best probably through the film Ed would Yeah,
it's layd by Martin Lando. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I
was gonna say this, you know when what's her name? Sorry,
the woman.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Jenny, the one Jenny.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, she brings kind of a chaperone friend figure, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Gwen brings her friend Jenny.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Sorry, oh sorry, yes, Jenny, Yes, yes, So I was
gonna say it's funny because Jenny seems kind of game like,
all right, yeah, let's go. But it seems in horror
movies now because she becomes the victim, it almost feels
like she'd be reluctant or something like, oh, come on,
I don't want to It's like please, I want you
to come with Okay, fine, you know it seems to
go that way for that character.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
That's a good point.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, And it's funny because I guess I just wasn't
in the frame of mind. I was getting into it
as I was watching this, but her tagging along, I
didn't even think like, uh oh, yeah right, you aren't
one of the main stars.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Didn't see you in the opening credits.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's sad, but I did.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's pretty no pun intended, but striking having this cane
be the main weapon. Yep. Here, it's very different. I
mean again, in my mind, I'm picturing a gun with
a silver bullet. Even I caught part of the Monster
Squad yep on TV recently, and I'm just used to
the idea of a gun with like a single silver
bullet in it. So here, just having this cane that

(22:48):
they keep repeatedly hitting people with it, it's like, oh wow,
it feels more brutal. Yep.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
That said, one presumes this wolf Man two has nards.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yes, that's right. Yeah, which is interesting, right because in
that movie Monster squad. I think they couldn't call them
by their actual names, right, they had to make them
slightly off brand to use them, like the the Gille
Monster or whatever, and like they had like these different
sorts of names.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
That's interesting, Yeah, because because obviously these these monsters are
all public domain and anybody can do their own were
wolf and whatnot. But but I do feel like the
the classic era, you know, Jack Pierce design monsters have
transcended their initial era into something where you can look

(23:39):
at them and you know, oh, that's yeah, that's Dracula.
You know, like that is kind of remarkable.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, And you know it's funny. I saw
Wolfman with some friends last night and I was saying
that I had watched this for the first time, and
my other friends she was like, well, I've seen Teen Wolf.
I was like, yeah, you know, the mythos has been
sort of reinterpreted. I mean speaking of like the puberty metaphor, right.

(24:10):
I kind of actually, after watching this and watching the
newer one, I kind of would like to rewatch Teen
Wolf and see the little dribs and drabs they include.
Maybe they don't, I don't know. Yeah, I mean he
doesn't serve any vehicles in this one.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
And the film is poorer for it.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
If you ask me, I agree. He doesn't have a
friend named Styles T shirts with his face on them.
It's kind of funny too. This makes me think, you
know what, like there's a there's a gypsy curse kind
of a thing, and you know, and then there was
like an era where it was like the Native American
burial ground, you know, just trying to come up with

(24:46):
this sort of fanciful magic attributed to certain group of people.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Certain ethnic groups.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yep, exactly.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
I do love the sets here, which are you know,
obviously it's a it's a studio stage. But again, going
back to what I was saying before, it it defies, uh,
you know, any specific reality. It feels dreamlike.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
That's again it's a good point. And I know the
probably the black and white helps a lot too, and
a lot of misted you know, you you can presume
it's a stage, but it looks great, dream like exactly.
It's I liked it a lot, and I guess at
the time it was the biggest set that had been built.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, and you know that they were smart about how
they framed it, where you're not as aware of the
obvious limitations of being on a set, you know. I
think that the director George Wagner, who is kind of
kind of like a journeyman, you know, he wasn't. I
don't know that he did anything that met this level again,

(25:57):
you know, but I think what makes it work, at
least for me, is that you've definitely what you're saying
before about the black and white. It adds to the tone, right,
the mood, and it creates a distance, but it feels

(26:20):
unmoored from time, kind of kind of like a fairy tale.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah. And I actually wrote down a note to myself
just calling out the beautiful cinematography. I mean just I
mean almost inherently with black and white. I mean, you
get these incredible lines and shadows, and when people really
know what to do with those things, you know, each frame,
which is naturally looks like a work of art. You know.

(26:46):
I saw the cinematographer Joseph Valentine, which, by the way,
I mean, is there a more killer name from an
era like that, Joey Valentine? Yep. But yeah, it's beautiful.
But it was also oh yeah, go ahead, no, well,
I was gonna say I mean, we'll get back to it.
But the fog from the sets or the outdoor sets

(27:09):
were obviously you know, chemicals, and apparently Evelyn Anchors, you know,
when she's pretending to be passed out in them, really
passed out from inhaling all those fumes or whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
You know.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
I made me think of the Wizard of Oz when
they're using asbestos for snow, and it's like, God only
knows what they were using to make the fog.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, try not to think about it. Yeah, but no,
you mentioned Joe Valentine and Worth mentioning that Alfred Hitchcock
saw his work on this film and hired him for Saboteur,
which was his first movie at Universal.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Oh, very cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Also worth mentioning is that this movie, which Universal had
a great deal of faith in, was released on December ninth,
nineteen forty one.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
I saw that I was going to bring that up.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah? Yeah, So, I mean, you know, Pearl Harbor was
attacked on December seventh, Yeah, nineteen forty one, And so
I actually when I was watching this, I saw the four.
I didn't quite track what exact year it was, but
I did wonder at what stage of the war we
were in. And yeah, I mean that was sort of
the Lynn Lease era where we were staying out of
things directly. And but yeah, the premiere, that's crazy two

(28:28):
days after Pearl Harbor.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
And you know, this movie is meant to be a
little bit of escapeism. You talk about America grappling with
up unto what it was up until then, the biggest
tragedy our country had experienced. Yeah, and this it's like
Homer Simpson coming out being like, are you ready to lift?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah? Right, right, Yeah, I mean yeah, ironically it's like,
are you ready for something truly terrifying? And I guess
Universal was nervous about that, but the movie went on
to become one of its top grossing movies.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, So, I mean sometimes that happens, right when awful
things happen in the world, people want to escape through
something terrifying in a different sort of way. It's almost cathartic.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, or just just find escape as a period, you know,
I mean, yeah, I mean we remember after nine to eleven,
you know, the following summer, Spider Man was released, and
some attribute the record shattering success of that movie at
least partly to this desire to just find escape.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yep, you know, yep. And even though this is sort of,
you know, terrifying, like this is fantastical, it's different, it's
not quite of our world, and that's maybe a necessary
escape for an hour and nine minutes.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
It's it's approach to the storytelling is very interesting because
and you know, guranted, we're watching it from the perspective
of almost one hundred years after its release, and you know,
I don't I don't find it scary. Even the jump
scares aren't particularly scary, you know, But did audiences like

(30:10):
how did audiences plug in back then?

Speaker 1 (30:12):
You know? Yeah, yeah, you know, I was watching a
movie from the seventies the other day and it had
the most abrupt ending of all time, and I thought, well,
that's really jarring. I mean, you don't even want to
take a breath. Yeah, But and so I wondered if
audiences at the time were like, yep, all right, you know,
picking up their coats and ready to walk out, and

(30:33):
they're like, yeah, that was satisfying. You know. It's just
different eras have different tempos, and you wonder if you know,
back here in nineteen forty one, this was a temple
they were tuned into and they and it creeped them out.
And I don't know, because it does move, it's it's
i'd call it a slow burn this movie, you know
it is.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
But you know what really struck me, especially upon this rewatch,
is that for a movie that, you know, under seventy minutes,
they pack all the essentials in.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Like it moves at a quick enough pace that you
feel like you're moving but not like you're being rushed through. Yes,
and by the end of those seventy minutes, you're like, no,
I watched a movie. I just watched a movie.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I feel the same.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
It has all the beats, yeah, you know, yeah, But you.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Know what I found interesting because I mean, an hour
nine minutes is very short. But I saw that apparently
there was a scene that involved a bear that's right, Yeah,
that they tried to film, but the bear ran away,
which is kind of crazy. They did film it, Yes,
it does exist, Yeah, and it was used in the

(31:44):
trailer apparently, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
But however the context of the scene and it comes
during the gypsy fair later. Oh and by the way,
real quick, I love this bit here where Cheney just
starts crying right number one, because it humanizes Larry. And

(32:08):
and I think I think that's what Cheney was very
good at, was was projecting emotion.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
You know.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
You know, he talked about playing Lenny in of Mice
and Men and he said that that the reason he
got the part is everyone who read for it was
either going for the humor or the horror, and he
went for the tragedy.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
See, And that's that's a pretty effective tool to have
in his toolbox because he's a lumbering man. I mean,
he's six', two he's kind of, beefy and so when
you see a person like that break, down you almost
feel it even more because it's kind of unusual to
see on someone of that frame.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Exactly and SO i almost feel like they put that
bit in there just to give him a chance to
emote because it's so good at.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
It.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah but but the scene we're referring to later on
where Where larry would would, go you, know would battle this,
bear and you, know the idea is that sort of
even before he becomes the wolf, man you, know the
bear sort of senses his his animal instinct or. Whatever
and and they left it out because it you're just, like, well,

(33:22):
geez that bear didn't do, anything you. Know, uh interesting
and it puts you Against larry. Unconsciously, Right oh that's.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Interesting see EVERYTHING i read was making it sound like
something that had gone, wrong you, know and, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
No no it was it was shot and they made
a decision to leave it.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Out, okay, okay, yeah well THAT'S I. YEAH i like
knowing that BECAUSE i, guess Like Evelyn anchors was had
to run up a ladder to get away from it
because it got away from its. Trainer so in my,
MIND i thought it was a sequence that they weren't
able to finish, scrapped and maybe that had something to
do with the shit at running. Time but, okay that's.
Interesting THEY I i prefer. THAT i like that they

(34:05):
were very, mindful, yeah realizing that if he'd killed an innocent,
animal we might not be able to continue to go
along with.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Him, yeah BECAUSE i THINK i think it works because
he projects an air of. GENTILITY i, mean even when
he's being sort of creepy with With, gwyn there IS i,
mean he seems, harmless like you don't you know WHAT i?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Mean even, HERE i mean we're watching him apologize for
what's happened to her Friend. Jenny, yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Exactly, so so all of THAT i think works toward
toward making him him uh you know. TRAGIC i, mean
that's really it's it's it's a story of tragedy where
he really he he is like the wrong guy in
the wrong. Place and and and what we were talking about,

(34:52):
earlier you, know the the you can't escape from from, Family,
Right it's like family pulled him back and that's what ends,
up you, know cursing. Him you. Know but the the
twenty ten film that was directed By Joe johnston that
that movie adds this element of Making Sir John talbot

(35:17):
the werewolf who who Bites lawrence M so it ends
up becoming a literal battle between father and, son WHICH
i guess we're seeing a lot of.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Lately, yeah, yeah that's, right that's.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Right BUT i think that loses something like to me.
Personally what one THING i like about this movie IS
i don't doubt That Sir john loves his, son and
they're like they've drifted, apart but they're both making an
effort to write. It it's not it's not based in anything,

(35:54):
really you.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Know it's, Interesting, yeah BECAUSE i mean we'll get into
it when we talk about The new Wolf. Man BUT
i found some of the metaphors a little jumbled at
least as it tries to stick its. Landing but but,
YOU i guess Team wolf going back to, THAT i
mean that is a father son. TRAIT i didn't sort
of think about it that that carries through with this. Story,

(36:18):
yeah and all the different. Iterations. Interesting this fiance here
is just kind of funny the way he shows up
like it's JUST i, Mean i'm sure this was the
style of the, time but it just him coming in
with his dog in the leash Like. Hereio just what.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Is interesting is that he's he's not played as as
like a like a foil To.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Larry, yeah you, know.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
It's he's just you, know he seems genuinely like concerned for.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Him. Yeah and even, yeah this scene at the, fair
he's even, like, oh just to prove to, you you,
know no hard, feelings he invites the him to join
along with.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Them, yeah like like sort of cinematic shorthand would lead
you to think he'd be kind of a, dick you.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Know, yeah and then probably get killed right.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Exactly maybe you'd be, like well, good you'd be, like, well,
Good i'm glad his throat cut.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Tice, yeah, exactly like he would be the wrong. Person
she's engaged with the wrong, person and maybe he's even
a little, aggressive and so then we see our hero dispatch,
him and we would be okay with it because you,
know maybe he's helping her in a weird sort of.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Way you know what occurs to me as we're, TALKING
i wonder if part of the reason they didn't make
him that way is That gwen does have somebody When
larry dies at the, end, mmmm like she gets you
know WHAT i, mean, like, well she has somebody who loves,
her and she loves, him you, know, like.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
YEAH i lost the threat a little bit because she
they have a little bit of a, disagreement but then
later on she's willing to run away With. Larry.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah that turn was rather. Dizzying but that.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Tends to happen in. Movies you, know all of a,
sudden people who've just met they're, like marry. Me, yeah
you know it's. True, yeah have you ever done one
of these, things by the, way these carnival games with
the like air, Pistol.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Probably WHEN i was in high.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
School, YEAH i feel you don't see these, anymore but
it used to be it was a piece of. PAPER
i remember whether there'd be a star or, something and
you had to shoot out all of the, stars so
there's none of it visible left and you need to
get a. Prize were you good at? It not as
good AS i would have liked to have, been, Probably
but it was always kind of, fun you. Know it's
like shooting A bb gun or. Something, YEAH i, mean

(38:37):
nowadays it seems like are you mad to put that
into someone's, hands especially a?

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Child but, yeah that's you know times where times are. Different.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
YEAH i mentioned earlier about About Claude. RAINS i mean
literally one year later he Played Captain reno In. Casablanca,
yeah right, right WHICH i, mean you, know you talk
about somebody who like people may not even realize they

(39:09):
know him because they've Heard i'm, shocked shocked to find
this is happening, here you.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
KNOW i looked him up because of. THAT i was,
like why DO i know? Him because he looks so,
familiar AND i EVEN i don't think the ages work,
out BUT i, thought is he the patriarch from the
creepy family next door in the? Burbs?

Speaker 2 (39:27):
No, no he, yeah BUT i mean he resembles him
a little. Bit he. Does, yeah, yeah, yeah he passed
away in the.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Sixties, okay, yeah, YEAH I i but, yeah something went
off in my. Brain why DO i know?

Speaker 2 (39:40):
This, well he's, In he's in Mister smith goes To.
Washington you'd probably know him from, that you.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
KNOW i, Mean i've seen, it BUT i don't know
THAT i would. Recall, oh, okay just from his.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Face but that's THAT'S i, MEAN i, KNOW i know
you like the.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Movie, yeah, YEAH i watched it again several years. Ago,
yeah it's. Great that's another, One. CAPRA i feel like he's,
UH i want to there's a lot of movies of
HIS i haven't. SEEN i want to go.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Through, yeah miss Mister. SMITH i think, like like it's
a wonderful. Life they sort of get lumped together as treacly,
uh you, know curios from a different, time and it's, like, no,
no these are like they're they they're. Heavy you. Know

(40:26):
M Claude rains is you, know he's the crooked senator who's,
like who's Mister smith's? Foil so kind of a great great.
Actor if you if you haven't Seen The Invisible, MAN
i would recommend, That.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
YEAH I I i do want to now have this
kick me, Off, yeah and just start going through These
it's funny because the past Year i've had it on
my mind to Read. Frankenstein, okay so Maybe i'll even
do that and Then i'll just watch those movies and
kind of get. Going.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah it's it's kind of remarkable because because Certainly frankensigin
And dracula are pretty far removed from the execution and
intention of the original, authors you, know the. Books you,
know The frankenstein monster in the book is not this
monosyllabic sort of you, know grunting CREATURE.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
I don't even.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Know, yeah he's, verbose and he's you, know he's angst
it and he's, like you, know why why DO i?
Exist you, know it's a lot of. That but of,
course what we think of is is what what these
films really really, popularized even Even, dracula, Right LIKE i
think people think Of Beyla lugosi, obviously but if you

(41:43):
read the, book it's hard to Imagine Bela lugosi based
on the Way dracula's portrayed in the, book you, know,
see AND i Guess i'm more familiar with those faratu
having just seen The reader. Recently but, Yeah orlock is
very different than WHAT i picture the, composed handsome black
hair of the. Scula, yeah of, course not sparat to the.

(42:06):
Originals you, know made without without permission from The stoker.
Estate so that WAS i Think Bram stoker's widow wanted
every print.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
DESTROYED i, mean would that be like if someone made you,
Know Flying Winged, man like basically The batman. Story, yep basically, wow.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
You know, yeah because BECAUSE i haven't seen the new,
one but certainly the original it's a pretty you, know
pretty strenuous adaptation of the original of the.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Book Apparently Evelyn anchors And Lon Chaney junior didn't get. Along,
yeah not not not.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Fans, yeah it.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Sounds like kind of a kind of a bully WELL i,
think you, know, well not, bully, sorry more. Juvenile.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
YEAH I i he used to kind of sneak up
behind her and his wolf man makeup and scare the
crap out of. Her, yeah WHICH i guess after the
second or third time that might get. Stale, yeah he
could also tie on a bender pretty.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Well, yeah that's what it sounds. Like apparently she got
his dressing, room and that was punishment because he had
vandalized studio property while. Drunk he used to get.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Into drunken brawls in his in his dressing. Room so
he liked the, sauce like the, sauce and and, yeah
like you, KNOW i certainly by the you, know by
the time he got to you, know Having costello Mite.
FRANKENSTEIN i think people knew real quick by the way
this this montage sequence here clearly going for something, artsy. Fartsy. Yeah,

(43:41):
YEAH i don't know that it works necessarily as much
as they, hope because it feels like the images aren't
really telling a.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Story, YEAH i, thought, alway is he going through a transition? Here,
yeah or this is the beginning of, That but, yeah
it's more just an impressionistic just off the top of my.
Head it makes you think a punch drunk. Love how
they'll just cut to sort of these watercolor. Paintings, yeah
it's just too kind of a, feeling and they connection

(44:11):
go with.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
It so as as, Written initially the idea was to
leave it much more opaque as to Whether larry's actually
turning into the. Werewolf. YEAH i found that fascinating and
thankfully cooler heads, Prevailed, yeah because that's the movie right.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
There, yeah BUT.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
I think they wanted to do something a little more.
Impressionistic and you, know when you see the the, transformation
it's It's larry looking into a pool of. Water so you're, like,
well is it really? Him is it?

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Not you, KNOW.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
I think it was smart to straighten that stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Out, definitely, Definitely BUT i mean you can see that,
version but that's not the version that's the most Fun.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah and it's not the one that's that's lasted this many,
years you.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Know, yeah but real.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Quick just to finish THE i was making. Earlier you,
know by the time he was making his last, movie
they knew to get his shooting done early in the
day because by the end he'd be kind of drunk
as a.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Skunk, wow you know.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Here we know it now Agains, now, yeah we. Are you,
know just about forty five minutes into this movie before
we See larry actually become The. Wolfman, now the transition
is pretty effective considering the technology of the, TIME i.
Think so you, know they're using like a lap. Dissolve
he's wearing boots, there like pretty.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Clearly you.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
Know, now what's funny is when he sat. Down he
was wearing light colored pants and a tank, top and
now he's wearing dark colored pants and a.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
SHIRT i didn't even. Notice SO i kind of.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Love that the wolfman stopped to change his trousers and
throw on a shirt right, before you, know getting down
to business of.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Murdering, yeah couldn't go out without his smoking. Jacket it
would been.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Uncivilized uncivilized.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Exactly it's a good, look, THOUGH i, mean it's. UH
i THINK i was, reading you, know there were different
iterations trying to find, it but at one point maybe
the face looked too much like a wolf and they're, like, no, no,
no he's got to look still like the. Actor, yep
you know which Is you hear that a, lot you,
KNOW i MEAN i think of nineteen eighty Nine, Joker,
yeah where they're, like well, no but we still got

(46:27):
to tell That's Jack. Nicholson we Got Jack, nicholson you.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Know, yeah you Find, yeah this is So Jack pierce
who designed these. Monsters you have to give him, credit,
right because it's it's there was no template to work off, of,
right it's kind of going from, imagination what do we
think it would look? Like and kind of just to
pick up on the point you were. Making if you
make it the where wolf looked too much like a,

(46:52):
wolf it wouldn't. Work so he has to look vaguely wolf,
esque you, know and using the materials of the, time
so you, know yak hair and molded rubber and. Whatnot
and and like you, SAID i mean you can still
See cheney's face, there you can see his. Eyes so
when we look at the continuum of makeup effects in film,

(47:17):
history you, know what started here was carried forward with you,
know well With John chambers on The apes movies, obviously
but like and Then Rick baker and, YEAH i, mean you, know, like,
yeah it's amazing. Chronology AND i feel, like you, know
nowadays we live in the age of digital, makeup which is,
great but it's also sad because this amazing art is

(47:40):
being left to the.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Side, yeah it's interesting building off of something, physical you,
know someone's actual face, structure right which again, yeah, no of,
course the digital, thing it can take it to whole
new levels and it can be done with great. Artistry but,
YEAH i, agree there's something cool about an appliance on
a face that's just plusing someone's natural.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Face, yeah you're accomplishing something just through your own, craft
you know WHEN i look at, WELL i, mean, geez
like in nineteen eighty one you had The American werewolf
In london and The Howling yeah, right and both had

(48:24):
werewolf effects By Rick, Baker and to, me it's just
a progression of what we see, here, right you, know
it's taking technology further accounting for the, time but you,
know just something about something about practical makeup that's, amazing you.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
KNOW i mean that sequence in An American werewolf In,
london it's just still, horrifying.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
The initial transformation. Scene, yeah, yeah, Yeah and that gets
to you, know you AND i we talked About Van helsing,
recently and that was meant to be kind of a
new you, know monster rally, picture like Like Universal easter
back in the, day and and that was something that
bugged me about the Wolf man in that. Movie it
was just a digital excess where it's like, this the

(49:13):
person who becomes The, wolfman they rip their skin off
and it's the wolf man, underneath And i'm, like, man
that's just it's just too. Much.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
YEAH i, MEAN i think you AND i are on
the same page where it's it's awesome that we develop new,
tools but why not have them all work? Together that's,
right you, Know, Yeah, yeah there's something to be said
about all the above and what makes for the most
believable and visceral experience on. Screen.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
YEAH i think the one of one of the best
things about The wolfman character is the fact that he
bounces back and forth between being the monster and being
the regular, guy and so he to grapple with the

(50:02):
the consequences of what he's, done the emotional consequences of
the moral, consequences AND i think that's what helps distinguish
him from from the, other from the other, creatures you. Know,
yeah it's it's, Tragic, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
You, know it's not he's relishing, this you know later.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
On, yeah and especially as as the character, progressed he
does end up becoming sort of like a de facto good,
guy you. Know, uh you know By By well By
abbin And costello Meet. FRANKENSTEIN i, mean he's essentially he's
he teams up with budd and lou to we have
to find and Destroy, dracula you. Know. Huh and and

(50:42):
that was my that film was the first, time first
universal monster MOVIE i ever.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Saw.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Huh AND i would say that's what got my love affairs,
started you.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Know, interesting THAT'S i love that that.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Movie if you have not seen, it it's. Tremendous, no, no,
oh it's, terrific and it's on so many, levels mainly
that it and And cheney would. Disagree he's, like, oh you,
know we kind of like by the, end the monsters
kind of became. Buffoons AND i would actually disagree because
if you watch that movie, tonally all the monster stuff

(51:14):
is right in line with these other these other. Films,
yeah but butd And lou happen to be in.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
It, Yeah and.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
So WHEN i look At sean of The, Dead i'm, like,
oh it's Doing abin And Costella Meet. Frankenstein, wow spot.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
On, yeah you, know, Yeah and it's funny and those
guys are, goofy but the threat is real and we
are actually watching a scary zombie. Movie that's. Right, yeah you.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Know so there is this tendency among some folks, like,
OH i don't really count the Cost Aban costellan's because
they did a few of the monster pictures they did
because they Did Abern Costello Meet frankenstein was obviously a big,
hit and then they did ab And Costella meet The Invisible,
man they Did The, mummy and those are all connected
to the univers their respective, series you, know but obviously

(52:05):
you know that they lean into. Humor but as far
As i'm, concerned it counts aber In costello Meet. Frankenstein
that's the end of the monster cycle for these for
these main creatures you, got you Got Baila lugosi, back
you Got Lon cheney. Back of course you should count,
it you.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Know, Interesting, YEAH i have a lot of movies awaiting. Me, well,
okay just going back real quick because we were talking
about the different monsters and. Characters BUT i mean some
of these universal horror films are based on, Books That's, Dracula.
Frankenstein BUT i mean some of, these like The, mummy, yeah,

(52:43):
Writer creature from The Black, lagoon those were just made
up for, films that's. Right, yeah, okay interesting by The.
Mummy that's interesting that that's a good. One you, know
it just sort of feels like it would come from
some sort of.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Source but, yeah and that's again though that that was
not uh uh you, know uh an exploitation. Movie when
when it was, released you, know it was it had
it had the Bors karloff who who again Like karloff
obviously made his name as a, monster but he was

(53:17):
thought of as a great, actor, right, so and and
that was just a year after you, Know. Frankenstein, yeah
so he was going off the success of that and
the and the FIRST i said this before in our
commentary for the nineteen nine M. MUMMY i mean it's
a it's a slow, picture it's not particularly, scary and

(53:39):
it has very little to do with with the The
Brendan fraser, one you, know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah you,
know uh but, yeah that that initial era early, thirties
that was like one, uh that was one part of
the universal monster. Cycle and then what what you had

(53:59):
had and was, was you, know studio management changed and
they were, like oh we got up start cranking out some.
Sequels ain't that always.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
HAPPENED i was just going to, say something's never.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Changed, yeah, funny, yeah you, know because Because. Carloff let's,
See karloff Does frankenstein in in thirty, one The mummies
in thirty, Two Brida frankenstein's thirty, four and then and
then he Does son Of. FRANKENSTEIN i think it's the
year after, that right, Actually, NO i stand great nineteen

(54:33):
thirty Eight son Of frankenstein a couple of years. Later
so what they realize is Once son Of frankenstein comes
out and they're, like, oh people are like still turning
up to watch These at that point you START i
mean they because they made you, know you, know it
goes To frankenstein and and you, know at that point
the monster rally stuff starts, happening and the quality, dropped no. Doubt,

(54:56):
sure Like The, ladder definitely the you, Know house Of,
Frankenstein house Of. Dracula that's, like let's cram the monsters,
in even if it doesn't make a ton of. SENSE
i like those. MOVIES i think there were a lot of,
fun but artistically they're doing something different than those earlier. Movies,
Right so in that, sense The wolfman And Larry talbot

(55:20):
is sort of the nexus point because he sort of
connects the earlier era with the later.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Era, interesting you, know AND i mean this went all
the way into the, fifties, RIGHT i, mean, well.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah because because the creature from The Black lagoon pictures
were all in the, fifties And aber And, COSTELLO i
want to say that was like fifty.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Eight you, know, wow This later in The night. Picture
in my mind WHEN i think of like the, sixties The,
BEATLES i don't put those.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
NO i stand. Corrected sorry it was forty. Eight oh, okay, okay,
sorry but The Creature movie those were like, Yeah i'm
pretty sure those were all in the, fifties.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
You. KNOW i like what you said About larry becoming
more and more sympathetic as this goes, on as this
is happening to. HIM i, like did he give that,
charm you, know To, Gwen, yeah to sort of protect
her RATHER i, mean it's probably would have been a
good idea for him keeping, himself but you, know his
intentions were.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Good, YEAH i think. That and this is just you,
know sometimes you just stumble on it because you cast
the right, person Right, because AS i, mentioned the earliest
version of this, story they it was intended as a
vehicle For, karloff and it's hard for me to imagine

(56:50):
it working as well with With Boris. Karloff not to
say he wasn't a great, actor BUT i, just you,
KNOW i think sometimes you just have to have the
the certain person for that, role you, know.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Yeah, yeah but you, know and going back to the,
beginning we're talking about how he goes in so confidently and,
like come, on go out with me kind of a.
Guy BUT i guess we, again whether or Not i'm
supposed to find that admirable or, NOT i don't, Know
but like we do watch him get broken down over
the course of the. Film we see him start in
this very confident. Manner, yeah, right and so and, yeah

(57:26):
he's big and you you imagine a lot of people
don't say no to him very. Often but we're watching
this big, guy, yeah get broken down as we move along. Here,
yeah so it is kind of a sad arc for.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Him, well it, Is AND i think it's very telling
that the very first shot that we have Of larry
in the, movie he's he's you, know under the. Sun he's,
smiling he's a good natured.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Guy.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah AND i draw this contrast with you, know the
twenty ten. Movie the biggest ISSUE i had there is,
that you, Know benicio Del, toro who you, know of,
course great. ACTOR i think the way the care character was,
constructed he's very dour and morose and and you don't you,
know it's it's awful what he's going, through but that

(58:09):
sense of tragedy doesn't really feel as much because you
don't you, know you're Not you're not sensing that this
is like a normal, guy, right you, know you feel
like this is this is somebody who's already always been.
Cursed AND i think that's that's a that's an important
part of the, mix you, Know.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Yeah, Definitely, yeah there is something so anguishing but also
compelling about wrong, place wrong time for your. Hero you.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
KNOW I i think about the Incredible hulk television, show WHICH,
i you, know enjoyed a lot WHEN i was a,
Kid and you, know in a lot of, Ways Bill
bixby his appeal in the in the role As David
banner is very similar to To Lon cheney's appeal As Larry,
talbot where he's this regular guy who really does not

(59:06):
want this thing to, happen and yet we as the
audience are kind of waiting for that. Thing.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Yeah, yeah you.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Know So Marius, uskinspai who plays the Gypsy, Maliva she's
also in the follow up to, This Franks Simes The,
Wolfman and you talk about like your prototypical gypsy. Character,

(59:34):
totally If i'm, like picture an old, gypsy you'd Picture
marius waspin sky without even realizing. Anything In Frank, Siamese
The wolfman's kind of. Interesting the monster was originally going
to be The Franks sigh monsters originally going to be
played By, Cheney so they were going to do they
were going to have him played both because he had

(59:55):
played the monster previously and goes To. Franstein they realized
pretty quick, like, oh that's not going to, work and
and so they Had Baylor lugosi play the. Monster and
and you talk about a very bad mismatch of actor and.
Character oh, yeah, YEAH i, mean obviously he has an
entirely different physicality than Either carloff or Or. Cheney and

(01:00:20):
on top of, that the. Monster this is where like
there were actually was continuity between the. Films in the
in the previous Film ghost Of, frankenstein the brain of
Doctor frankenstein's Assistant, igors played By, lugosi was implanted into
the monster's. Brain so he he was supposed to be

(01:00:40):
igor as voiced By, lugosi, Right and and he was
supposed to be. Blind he had been rendered blind based
on the events in the. Film and what they realized, is,
well when when the monster opens his mouth and he
you've this, mushmouth you, know very Thick lugosi. Accent it
was it was hilarious instead of. Imposing so they ended

(01:01:03):
up cutting out any scene where he, talks and they
also cut it out any reference to the fact that
the creature's, blind even though that's How legosi was playing.
It oh, No so it ended up backfiring in several different.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Ways and, sure, sure kind of a wonky looking performance Without.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, UNFORTUNATELY i, mean you know you mentioned ed Would
edward really gets into it That lugosi he could not
Escape dracula's cape m you, know it haunted him for
the rest of his. Career. Yeah and and this is
this is sort of the curse of immortalizing a, character

(01:01:38):
is is it lives, forever whether you wanted to or.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Not you. Know THE i thought that was, interesting interesting
that the Maleva Maliva, meliva she can take the curse
off of him, temporarily, Temporarily, Okay so, yeah that just
that was unexpected for.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Me it's it's the equivalent of, hey, hey big, guy
son's getting real low you, know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Yes, exactly, yes, basically, yeah that's pretty. Good and then
also she has like a speech in here where she's
describing the, werewolf AND i was, like, Oh i've seen
this clip before in the. Sandlot now funny when the
kids getting chased by the big, dog he runs through
a movie theater and that's what's playing on the. Screen

(01:02:30):
AND i was, Like, okay, okay it's kind of fun
to actually see the film in its proper, context isn't?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
It isn't it in An American werewolf In london? Too
don't aren't?

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
They Maybe i've only seen that. Once it's been.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
A minute Since i've seen, that BUT i feel like
there's a werewolf movie where they're, they're you, know commenting
on the werewolf.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Movie.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
Yeah but but, regardless like the the the scene you
were talking about earlier with With, maliva where she's you,
know talking over the casket of her, son you, know
as scripted, originally that was written in such a way
where you have the the the people who maintain the the,

(01:03:18):
tomb you, know are moving the casket and and the
camera would have been it would have been shot as
if From bella's point of, view even though he's, Dead
and the idea was kind of this unnerving sense of
like even though he even though he's, dead he's not
really dead kind of. Thing and they ended up cutting that.

(01:03:40):
Out BUT i do find that interesting in that that
that cut, out that thing that they cut out ended
up allowing them to Bring larry, back yeah and, say,
oh well he wasn't actually, dead you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Know, Right. Yeah. Interesting you, KNOW i want to ask
about this. Too SO i don't know about the, lore
but that his bite. Disappears, yes it's kind of. INTERESTING i, mean.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Is that it's like a healing factor kind of, thing you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Know, okay, okay. INTERESTING i was reading about the, TRANSFORMATION i,
mean we talked about it a little bit, earlier saying
where there's like sort of a lapse photography sort of.
Thing AND i actually like wrote this down BECAUSE i
didn't want to screw it, up BUT i just found
this kind of. Fascinating like the. Links, now you just

(01:04:33):
put dots on someone's, face you, know and have an
artist take care of it. Later but for him to
change on, screen basically what happened was they had to
keep him still, right so that's what you wouldn't move
and you could put the different makeup transitions on. Him
and so, anyway a plaster mold was made to keep
his head, still and then he was photographed and his

(01:04:54):
outline was then drawn onto a pane of glass in
front of the, camera so they knew exactly where to
put his head. Back over and over in, between they
would put more and more appliances on, them more, hair
and he'd have to just keep going, back line up
with the plane of, glass get back into the plaster.
Mold and it's JUST i love how tactile and old
school it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Is isn't that? Amazing, yeah so what you're, describing that's
what they did with with the next one and on
because in this, one the only transformation we see is
him turning back To larry from The wolfman at the,
end and and that was they were sort of figuring it.
Out but, yeah if if you Watch Frank Stimy's The,
wolfman the first time you see, him he's he's resting.

(01:05:35):
It it looks like a, pillow but it's actually. Plaster.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Hmmm you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Know so, yeah so there was there was they. Molded
it looks like a, pillow but there's it's just a
little little divot in. There he can just put his
head right. There m. Hm and and it's a remarkable
on screen. TRANSFORMATION i mean it's it's virtually, SEAMLESS i.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Think so, yeah, Yeah AND i mean you think about
all the room for error BECAUSE i guess. APPARENTLY i
mean it takes seconds on, screen but it took about
ten hours to do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Execute, Yeah cheney would kind, of you, know spice up
the story in the. Telling he'd be, like, yeah they'd
put like little nails under my skin to keep me
from moving and. Stuff and the people were, like, oh no,
kidding you, know but that obviously was was not the,
case and that's how unions were. Created, YES i think That.

(01:06:27):
Cheney you, know obviously he, did you, KNOW i mean
his alcoholism ultimately did him. In BUT i mean he
did live long enough to you, know get to see
how beloved this character.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Was that's always.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Nice, yeah exactly. RIGHT i would imagine that that was
a good.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Feeling, yeah it's always sad when you see that with,
artists with painters or musicians or, something you, know when
they become icons after their time and they have no.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Idea, yeah because he died in seventy, three, okay you,
know about what like twenty five years after having Played
The wolfman last you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Know, Yeah, well and then the writer what was his name,
Again i'm, sorry Oh seed mack Sioed. MACK i saw
that he was born in nineteen oh two and died
in the year two. Thousand. Amazing so first, OFF i, Thought,
wow the things he's, seen, yeah nineteen oh two to
The internet. Amazing and then but, then, yeah speaking of
and if a lot Of wolfman lore can be credited to,

(01:07:35):
HIM i mean he really did get to see its
influence throughout the, Years that's, Right it's. Amazing, yeah AND
i would.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
IMAGINE i, mean you, KNOW i remember in the nineteen,
EIGHTIES i was a little, kid and you, KNOW i
Purchased Universal Monster action figures that were Like Little Star wars,
guys and they were available At toys R us as
late as the late, eighties you. Know and you, know
if You're curtsey Old, mock you got this is your.

(01:08:03):
Creation and it's truly it's. Lasted you, know kids are
playing with the toy you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
Know. Yeah, YEAH i mean that's the thing. TOO i
haven't seen any of these And i'm familiar with all of.
THEM i mean they've always been there in.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Culture that's, remarkable you. Know, Yeah and that's really you,
know we've talked before about how this is the the
first cinematic, universe but, look it started with them just
making movies and then eventually a crossover seemed appropriate m
as opposed to again mapping out phases and, whatnot.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
You, know, right, right, Right, WELL i Obviously i'm sure
money was a, factor but there's also kind of a,
thing you, hope where someone, thought wouldn't it be cool
if dot dot?

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Dot. Yeah sometimes sometimes that's your best. Movie it's just
asking what it wouldn't be cool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
If, YEAH i mean didn't work out so well for
cowboys versus, aliens but it would have been.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Cool it sounds cooled they needed cowboys versus. Aliens the
Wolf man, exactly that's all he's, missing you, Know, YEAH
i do like the you, know we talk about destiny
and how you, Know Sir. John he ties Up, larry
and as he leaves, Him larry's, Like, dad just take the,
cane you, know and it, ends you, know like obviously

(01:09:21):
he wants his dad to protect, himself but obviously he
on some level he's, like if if my dad encounters,
me he's gonna have to kill, me you. Know he
arms him with the means to kill.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Him. Yeah, yeah it's. Great it's great. Tragedy there's something
it's so, striking the silhouette of him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
There, yeah and just this this fog that's just never
that never goes. Away you. KNOW i also REALLY i
like this score in this movie a. LOT i was
actually you, know rewatching for our for our talk. TODAY
i was really setting in on how how Clearly John

(01:10:08):
williams carried forward what these old movies were. Doing, yeah
strong motifs that are representative, characters and even the. UNDERSCORE
i hear pieces of the underscore that are just you,
know you could they could be in a one of
His Star wars movies or, something you. Know, yeah you,
know there was a phrase AND i don't remember which it,

(01:10:29):
was musical phrase that reminded me Of batman eighty Nine,
batman AND i was, thinking, oh that must have been
In elfman's head.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Well And, elfman by the, way did the score for
the twenty ten.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Version oh there you. Go.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Yeah, SEE i think that the fact that Sir john
And larry have reconciled is what makes this moment so
much more. Tragic m, hm you know. It it isn't

(01:11:03):
this sort of pent, up you, know confrontation between father and.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Son.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Yep, yeah it's just you, know they've been, apart they've
made peace with each.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Other and yet, yeah or between the fiance and, him
if it was the, fiance they had to do it
to defend his his, fiance you, know, like, yeah that
would have been a version you can, imagine but it
just wouldn't play the. Same or if you had just,
been like we were, saying a random worker that this guy,
hired it just wouldn't be the. Same the father son
thing makes it so, TRAGIC.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
I, think. SO i THINK i think The Larry gill
VERSION i can understand, again, like, well that's why that's
why you Cast cheney and you Cast Claude, reins because
you don't expect them to be. Related and YET i
think the look On Sir john's face Doesn't it doesn't
work unless he's a, son you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
Know H and it's always sad in a movie when
the hero does need to be put, down you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
Know, Yeah oh this is WHAT i.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
WAS i. WAS i KNEW i had some fan one to,
say The villagers with. Torches that feels sort of like
a staple of this, universe.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Right pretty much like Every universal movie you can it
doesn't take much to get The it's it's a little
bit like like the town Of, springfield you, Know, yes
exactly exactly they. Got they got torches and, pitchforks, ready
ready at a moment's. Notice you, know come, on.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
There's an outcast we need to. Harass.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
SEE i THINK i, think LIKE i was saying, EARLIER
i think that's why the fiance is not a, dick
because it's just, like, well at Least gwen will be, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Yeah you're. Right it does give her a little bit
of an optimistic.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Ending, yeah something. There but, yeah just just a couple
of years, later we Had Frankenstein meets the Wolf man
and then we were off to the. Races For LIKE i,
Said Lawn cheney's most In you're in. Character he was
asked about it later in, life what was your favorite
role that you? Played and it was basically Between lenny And.

(01:13:09):
LARRY i would say if what he's most remembered for
is certainly his outsized role in The Universal Monsters Cannon
and there we are with The. Wolfman it flies, by
wow sixty nine. Minutes, yeah, yeah, well thank you so

(01:13:31):
much for watching this with. ME i Had, BOY i
had fun talking through, it you KNOW i.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Did, Too And i'm really glad you introduced me to.
This you, know it's LIKE i, Said i'm. Ready, well
it was fun preparation before going to see the twenty
twenty five. Remake they're very, different but there are a
couple moments WHERE i was, like, oh that reminds me
of the. Original but, YEAH i feel like you've started
me on my journey, now Like i'm ready to sort

(01:13:58):
of dig into these and get familiar with. Them so thank.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
YOU i appreciate. That you, know if anybody listening wants
to hear more of my thoughts on The Universal, MONSTERS
i was fortunate enough to write a chapter in the
Book The Inspiring world Of, horror edited By Kayu, pettis
AND i got to look at specifically The Universal monsters
and their role as the first cinematic. Universe so if anybody's,
interested you can check that. Out very.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
COOL i didn't know THAT i want to read.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
IT i was gonna, SAY i don't THINK i checked that.
Out that book to, You, yeah, yeah, yeah somewhat. Surprising,
yeah but, hey let us know your thoughts on the Wolf.
Man you can email us At Moviefilm podcast at gmail
dot comic you, know so hit like on Our facebook,
Page facebook dot Com Slash Movie Film podcast and let
us know your thoughts, There, brian anything you want to bring.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Up, oh as, always Episodes i've written Of Puppy Dog
pals And Young Jedi adventures are available to stream On Disney.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Plus and if you're listening to this episode right when it,
drops that means you are hearing it via Our patreon.
Feed but given, That i'm going to, say, well, hey
if you like what we're, doing please spread the word
and tell other folks to. Subscribe, yeah we really appreciate the.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Support it helps sustain us and helps sustain the production
of this, show and we want to continue doing things like,
this coming up with special offerings behind The patreon, walls
little extras to be. Enjoyed so looking forward to more
of that to, come hopefully.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
Soon so thank you. Everybody on behalf of my Partner Brian.
Hall my name Is Zachie. Assan this has been our
commentary track For The wolfman