Brian Bates Private Investigator HoltzclawTrial.com

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
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Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
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nine eighty six seven seven seven to one. Okay, well
give this another try. I had Brian Bates a private investigator.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
His website is Bates Investigates dot com. He's also got
another website called Holtzclaw Trial dot com and that's the
trial of Daniel holtz Claw, who's serving some serious time now.
I believe it's over two hundred years for a series
of sexual allegations there over in Oklahoma City. Brian Bates
is also the guy behind John TV. You might have
seen him on Maury Povich one hundred thousand times and

(02:00):
the video Vigilante okay see is his YouTube channel. So
really interesting guy. He's gonna have a podcast coming up
soon about this Daniel Holtzclaw case, and I really recommend
it because Brian is a great way of telling a
story and I'm very well researched kind of guy. So
I think you're really going to enjoy his podcast when

(02:20):
it finally launched. So, Brian Bates, are you there all right?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Madam? Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Thank you so much. And this is, by the way,
people should know, this is the third time Brian Bates
is coming back. We had so many difficulty problems. I
talked about it the other night about how I was
driving back and forth to the cable company tried to
get my cable back on, and Brian was over there
in Oklahoma City on the other end of the line
during all that. So God bless you, Brian. Thank you
so much. But remind the audience who is Brian Bates.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well?

Speaker 5 (02:49):
Here locally, a lot of people know me as the
video vigilante. They know me as the guy behind at
johntv dot com pretty much. They just know me as
kind of this crazy guy that exposes prostitution and human
trafficking here in Oklahoma City. And I use my video
camera to do that. And I've been doing it for

(03:10):
about twenty plus years. When I started off simply as
a way to get the prostitution and drug activity and
pimping activity out of my own neighborhood. And the very
first time I caught somebody. I didn't think i'd find
myself that situation. Didn't know what to say, so I said,
you're busted, buddy, and that line's stuck. And twenty years
later people will see me on the street and go, hey,

(03:30):
you're busted, buddy, and it's taken off and really educated
the public to the problem of forced prostitution and everything
that goes along with that and the detriment to the community.
So it's kind of I guess it's sort of a
little local celebrity in that regard. And so I do that,
and then because of my work doing that and do
an investigative work into the pimps and the human traffickers,

(03:52):
I developed quite an interest into private investigative work and
got my license and became an armed private investigator, and
I began working on criminal defense trials. I found those
pretty interesting, and probably the biggest trial I've worked on
today would be a former Oklom City police officer, Daniel
Holts Clause criminal trial.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
So give us an idea. Daniel Holts glad he was
a cop for three years. How did he come to
become a defendant?

Speaker 5 (04:21):
Well, Daniel had he had, you know, fairly recently had
he even twenty ten, he graduated from Eastern Michigan University.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
He was a football player, big guy, six one six.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
Two two fifty or so pounds, solid muscle. Really had
aspirations to go on to the NFL. That didn't happen.
He just I don't think was really quite quick enough
for the NFL, and he had a pretty quiet personality.
And so when that didn't work out that in twenty eleven,
he was hired on by the Clom City Police Department

(04:53):
and shows to follow really in his parents' footsteps.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
His Daniel's half.

Speaker 5 (04:58):
Japanese half Caucasian, and his mother, who's Japanese, was actually
a police officer in Japan, and his father, he's a
police officer in a smaller city in Oklahoma.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
He's a lieutenant. And so Daniel decided to.

Speaker 5 (05:13):
Follow in his parents' footsteps and become a law enforcement
officer and dedicate his life to serving the citizens of Oklahoma.
Completed the training in twenty twelve, joined the Gang Unit
twenty thirteen for just a short stay just so he
could get taste of the gang unit, and then by
June of twenty fourteen, these allegations are are being leveled

(05:35):
against him, and it really it was something that nobody
his family didn't expect.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
He certainly didn't expect. He had a bit of a
reputation for.

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Being an angier faced type of patrol officer. Because he
was such a big, ominous patrol officer and because he
had the ability to take care of himself, they placed
him very early on in his career in probably the
roughest part of Oklahoma City, the northeast side. It's primarily
minority area, tons of gangs, tons of drugs, very violent

(06:04):
area of town. And he could hold his own and
he had he had garnered well over a dozen use
of force allegations against him, was cleared of every single
one of them. He was one of those guys that
he'd be real respectful to you, but but if you
ran from him, he's going to come after you and
he's going to catch you. And a lot of these
tough gang bangers on the once Daniel caught him, they

(06:26):
claimed he was he was a little rough on him.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
But he was cleared of all those things. And then one.

Speaker 5 (06:31):
Night he did a he did an off duty stop,
and that lady of grandmother actually made an allegation against him.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
And she was sort of the lynch pin accuser.

Speaker 5 (06:41):
And the ultimate conclusion to that was ultimately thirteen women
went to trial against him, a criminal trial. It was
thirteen accusers, thirty six alleged crimes at seventeen alleged crime scenes.
And he was found guilty of exactly half of those
thirty six allegations, and he was sentenced to two hundred

(07:01):
and sixty three years in prison. And that's where he
sits right now. He's being held at an undisclosed location
by the Department of Corrections and he's filed his appeal.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
And we've yet to hear the conclusion of that appeal.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
So the first woman who made the complaint against him
was this woman named Liggins. Can you describe that evening
what happens?

Speaker 5 (07:25):
Yeah, Daniel works twelve hour shifts and he was getting
off of it was June eighteenth of twenty fourteen, and
about two am. He worked for this Spring Lake Division
is the briefing station that he patrolled out of, and
it was getting about two o'clock.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
It was the end of his shift two o'clock in
the morning.

Speaker 5 (07:46):
He'd have to return to work again around three o'clock
later that afternoon. And he turned off his computer, as
he did every time after he ended his shift. That
became pretty controversial during the trial and during this sort
of media onslaught around the trial that he had turned
his computer off.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
And for people who aren't familiar.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
With how at least our police department works, when you
turn off your computer inside your patrol car, you've turned
off the GPS, you've turned off everything. You're basically just
driving us today in at that point. And he did
that at the end of his shift, and that was
against policy. Policy said that you had to leave.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Your computer on if you had to take home car,
which Daniel had to take home, had to take home car.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
And so a lot of people thought, oh, this was
proof that he was in predator mode and he was
looking for his next victim, and he.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Had gone dark and all these things.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
Well, that the reality was and this came out in
the trial, and I have the transcripts from the trial
that this was very rampant about officers turning off their computer,
so rampant in fact, that they had recently enacted this
policy which was you cannot turn off your computer. So
it's a brand new rule and the only way they
even told officers about this rule is through email.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
They just emailed it out to the officers.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
And they admitted a trial that they had no confirmation
from Daniel he had ever this email that he knew
anything about the rule and that it was a new rule.
So him turning off the his computer really was a
non issue, but people tried to turn it into one.
But regardless, two am comes he turns off his computer.
Basically that exact same time. In just a couple of

(09:16):
blocks away, a fifty seven year old woman by the grandmother,
by the name of Jannie Leggins. She's spent all late
afternoon and up to two am at another house with
another gentleman, not her boyfriend or boyfriend was on the
other side of town, but anyway, she was there, said
she's playing dominoes and just conversing. So two am she's leaving,

(09:39):
and it just so happens that within a few minutes
Daniel and Janie Liggins PAVs cross and Jennie Liggins is
his friend. Daniel, and he says that she sees her
car across the center line once or twice. Well on
the street that they were on, it's pitch black. They
are no street lights, the vehicle she's driving is totally
blacked out with tent. He can't see in the vehicle
during the daylight. When we photograph the car, you can't

(10:01):
see into the vehicle. And so they pull up to
the light at northeast fiftieth and Lincoln Boulevard, and according
to both Liggins and anholtz Claw, as they're proceeding through
the intersection, he lights her up. He turns on his
strobes and indicates for her to pull over, and she
pulls over right away, and he quickly realizes that this

(10:21):
isn't gangbangers.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
It's isn't a bunch of drug dealers.

Speaker 5 (10:24):
He's this isn't going to be some you know, stop
that's going to really mean anything. And so he wants
to make sure those since she had been swerving, that
you know that she's okay to drive, and really he
wanted to figure out what she was doing at two am.
You know, this grandmother out and it's probably not when
you picture a grandmother, she probably doesn't fit that picture.
She had big hoop ear rings in, she's got some

(10:45):
colored streaks in her hair. She naturally kind of talks
in a lower tone, almost sounds like she's slurring, her
eyes stay pretty closed, So if you didn't know her,
you would assume she's under the influence of maybe alcohol
or drugs, and so that that's what Daniel thought initially,
had her come back to the back of his car,
talked to her for a few minutes to stop. In total,

(11:07):
took about twelve thirteen minutes, and then Daniel says that
he finally became convinced she was fine to drive home,
and that maybe she just got nervous because she saw
a police car behind her. Maybe that's why she kind
of crossed the center line a little bit, but.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
He was going to let her go.

Speaker 5 (11:21):
Janey, on the other hand, claims that when she was
taken to the back of his car that at some
point and the story gets a little graphic because we
are talking about someone who is charged with several, you know,
sexual offenses, but she claims that at some point he
exposed his penis and that he forced her to perform
oral sex upon him, and then only after performing that

(11:44):
sex act was she allowed to leave. And she wanted
to report that incident as a crime, and of course
Daniel says it absolutely didn't happen, and that's what started everything.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
At that point.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
Okay, let me clarify some questions here. Now. First of all,
he was driving home police car. So this is like
a small kind of police force. Whether it's a take
home car, you could take your place car home with me.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right right. It was several officers. I don't know how
they decide who gets to or not.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
He actually, even though he was a new officer, was
given one of the one of their brand new patrol cars,
and he was allowed to take that patrol car home.
And the whole reason they have you take the patrol
car home is so that you are available if there's
any kind of an emergency in your area. One the
patrol cars get seen in neighborhoods. It helps keep crying down.
If you see someone performing traffic infraction or breaking the law,

(12:35):
you're perfectly allowed to pull them over or question them
or detain them even though you're off duty. So him
stopping her off the clock was not against any sort
of policies. I mean, it's actually a big police force.
It's you know, it's Oklahoma City, so it's a large
police force. But a lot of officers are allowed to
take their vehicles home.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Do we know if he had a busy shift that
day at worked a lot of tickets or any restaurant thing.

Speaker 5 (12:56):
Well, his shifts are always pretty busy. Like I said,
he's spring Lake District, northeast part of town. It's a
lot of stop and talk with people on the street.
It's a lot of people loitering around. It's a lot
of people looking like they're up to no good. It's
a lot of people doing suspicious what looks like and
probably is in many cases street drug activity. There's lots
of gang activities, so you stop and you interact with

(13:17):
the youth on the street. And he had a lot
of contacts with every one of his shifts. He always
had a lot of contacts with men and women, but
nothing really.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Out of the ordinary.

Speaker 5 (13:28):
There were no bigger risks or no and honestly, in
the northeast part of town, unless you're create, unless you're
conducting a pretty serious crime, you're probably not going to
get arrested. Because Oklahoma City is a big department, but
they're stretched very thin.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
So a couple of things people need to know.

Speaker 5 (13:45):
Oklahoma City patrol cars don't have dash cameras. Oklahoma City
police officers until recently did not have body cams. And
at the time of this incident at twenty fourteen, the
officers were not wearing body cams.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
The officers patrol alone, doubled up.

Speaker 5 (14:00):
The only time you see officers in Oklahoma City doubled
up is if it's a new recruit working with a
seasoned officer and they're on their probationary period, then they'll
be doubled up. Otherwise, you work alone, and so you're
not going to every time you take someone in for
some minor infraction, that's a man off the street for
potentially a couple of hours while you book them in,

(14:21):
do the paperwork, do those sorts of things. So I
don't believe there was any Certainly weren't any major arrests,
and it was pretty typical for Daniel and the others
in the area. Unless you're committing a felony, they're probably
not going to go in.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
But did he have a lot of contact with or
calls what he was leading paperwork behind like that?

Speaker 5 (14:40):
Well, there's always how they pretty much tracked his activity
is you have your radio traffic when you call into
dispatch and you're calling someone's name in and you're running
them for wants and warrants before you're calling yourself out.
I'm at such as his call sign was to Charlie
forty five. And so if you'd go out on a location,
be too, Charlie forty five.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
I'm out with a couple of suspects or a couple
of individuals.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
He'd give his location that kind of stuff, so that
would count as a stop. They do these field cards
that they would fill out, and they'd provide those field
cards over to police intelligence, Like, hey, I stopped a
couple of people. I talked to them, pretty sure they
were dealing dope, but of course I couldn't prove it,
and he would have looked at their IDs and wrote
down their information, and then the gang unit and the

(15:22):
intelligence unit compile all that information to try to develop
intel on the criminal activities. And then of course if
you get sent on a call. You know, in Oklahoma City,
they don't do an awful lot of controlling. It's an
awful lot of dispatching. You're continuously just responding to crimes
that are being reported. You're not really allowed to do
much just proactive work of getting to know the community

(15:43):
because there's so few officers and so many nine to
one one calls coming in, but there was there was
nothing noted at trial that was abnormal about that particular day.
He had just he had gone from call to call
to call, just like most officers do.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Okay, Now he pulls over with Janie Niggins for a
lane chain.

Speaker 5 (16:01):
Or well she was in said her car just kind
of floats. It's two lanes in either direction, so a
four lane road, and she just kind of crossed over
from the inside lane to the outside lane where it
hires kind of you know, cross the center line. I
think we've all seen that officers will often use that
as a precursor to allow them to pull somebody over.
And Daniel was this was a high crime, high gang area.

(16:24):
He really thought this was giving him the opportunity to
pull over probably some people that might have some dope
on them, guns they're not supposed to have, or might
turn into a serious arrest.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
And it didn't.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Okay, then if you thought this was a possibly gang
bangers in this car, right, wouldn't it be normal procedure
then before he got out of the car to turn
his computer back on and call into the dispatch and
say I'm leaving my car to go visit this car
here with this license plate number.

Speaker 5 (16:50):
Running that came up, and again they you know, even
the prosecution had to concede. That just comes down to
officer discretion, you know. When you're some of daniel size
and aptitude out there, he wasn't really known as calling
in a lot of backup. Typically, he's a person who
got called in as backup because he was such a

(17:10):
large person. And he certainly was not afraid to get
into a physical altercation with someone who was going to
try to flee or fight or anything like that. But
under a situation like this, of course it's going to
be the individual officer's call as to what they want
to do.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
But he didn't.

Speaker 5 (17:27):
For whatever reason, he didn't feel that it was really
anything to be worried about. He walks up to cars
all day long, and quite honestly, and I remember this
did come up at one point. They're stretched so thin
in this area. If you called for backup, you might
be sitting behind that car for fifteen minutes waiting for
somebody to show up. It's not like in television where
you call it in and thirty seconds later you know

(17:48):
the Calvary's there to back you up.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
It just isn't something that they normally do.

Speaker 5 (17:54):
And another thing that came up that that's problematic is
an awful lot of the people that you stop in
these areas because there's a lot of female drug traffic
and prostitution in these areas. Well, male officers are allowed
to put female suspects down because there simply aren't enough
female officers for you to call them in and they
were able to show If you called in a female

(18:14):
officer to do a pack down on somebody or to
assist because you have a female defendant or suspect, it
may be forty five minutes or an hour before that
officer could show up. And now you've tied up two
officers for a prolonged period of time in an area
of town that already doesn't have enough officers patrolling. So
I really didn't find that. I don't think anybody else
found it odd. You know, one of the things that

(18:37):
I think might have been a little odd for some
people is you just get an awful lot of officers
at the end of a twelve hour ship. They don't
want to mess with traffic infractions. That's why they turn
their computers off. They just don't want to deal with it.
You got to keep in mind Daniel was an officer
with ten or twenty years in where he's he's just
tired of it already and ready to retire. He had really,
once you take out his time going through the academy

(18:57):
and going through probation, he had only been on the
streets for about two years, so he was he was
still a pretty gung ho patrol officer at this point.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
But it's not a procedure down there in Oklahoma City
for an officer not called for backup, but just to
call in and say I'm leaving they have a code,
I'm leaving my car now exiting the you know, and
then actually to give the plate number of the car
you're approaching.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
It's not a policy, it's it's certainly I would say,
would be highly advisable, but that is not it's not
a policy violation.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
They don't have to call those things in.

Speaker 5 (19:28):
It certainly suggested for officers safety that they do so
if all of a sudden you don't hear them on
radio traffic, you can't get them on the radio for
ten minutes, you've got some sort of idea what they
were last doing.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
But it was not a violation of any policies.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Okay, now, and when you said that, he had her
exit the car and go to the hood of his car. Now,
at any time, he never turned his computer back on
to run her for warrants.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
No.

Speaker 5 (19:53):
Once he made contact with her and she gave a story,
she was able to give an address where she had
just come from, the name of the person she'd just
been with. She's she's got an open drink like maybe
a red Solo cuff or something like that with her.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
He smells it.

Speaker 5 (20:09):
He can't tell that there's any alcohol in it, even
though she does look a little suspicious for at two
am to be out looking the way that she does.
He pretty much assessed at this point that her story,
you know, seems to check out, seems to be true.
His other problem was she, she expressed to him, asked
for a driver's license and insurance. Well, she didn't have
either one, and come to find out she hadn't had

(20:30):
a driver's license in thirty years. Of course, also to
come to find out she had been pulled over many
many times without that driver's license, without that insurance, and
had never been arrested for it. And even the prosecution, well,
one of the main investigators against Holtzklaw even testified that
that one in Oklahoma in general, one in three people

(20:51):
does not carry insurance on their vehicle, even though legally
they're supposed to, and that pulling people over and finding
out they don't have a driver's license or insurance on
this part of town was extremely common, and that it
was not uncommon for those people not to be arrested
or not even to be ticketed, because it's just it's
so chronic in these neighborhoods. And we were able to

(21:12):
show where Jane You'd been pulled over several times and
didn't have any of these credentials, and she still wasn't arrested,
So it wasn't odd that Daniel didn't do anything either.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
And Daniel's explanation for that was.

Speaker 5 (21:22):
If I took her in, if I towed her car
and I took her in to jail for it, Well, one,
if she doesn't have a license and doesn't have insurance
and she's driving this old beat her car, probably not
going to be able to bond out, She's not going
to be able to pay the ticket. Another warrant will
be issued for arrest when she doesn't pay her ticket.
So he was just going to just going to let
her go. Plus it was also going to add probably

(21:43):
two hours onto his twelve hour shifts. So now he's
fourteen hours before he gets to go home, and he's
got to be back at work later that afternoon. So
after talking to her for about ten minutes or so,
he decides to go ahead and just let her go.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
And all of those things, even the investigator who were
working against Daniel, they all admitted a trial.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
None of those things were policy violations. Some of them
were probably ill advised just for his own safety, but
none of them broke the law, and none of them
were even against policy.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
I'd tell you I should move over there, man. I
got pulled over once with no insurance at a thousand dollars.

Speaker 5 (22:18):
That's fine, that TV what happened to me, And you know,
it's one of those things they just kind of laughed off.
You know, it's officer discretion, and a lot of new
officers might arrest people and take people. But then you
realize in those parts of town it is so common
you would literally spend your entire shift doing nothing but
taking people to the jail for not having insurance or

(22:38):
driver's license. Now, some citizens like me may say, well,
so what you know they need to get because one
of the people is going to end up running into
me and they're not going to have any insurance. But
it's just something that unless you live in one of
these parts of town and you realize that's the norm,
walking around with misdemeanor warrants, walking around without an ID,
walking around without driver's license or an insurance, that's just

(22:59):
sort of.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
A norm in these parts of town.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
I'd see. Now you said that she had been pulled
over many times before with no driver's license and no
insurance and was never arrested.

Speaker 5 (23:10):
I don't want to say many times, because that means
different things to different people. But there were instances, a
handful three or four times over thirty years, she had
been pulled over and there was no no evidence that
they did anything about it, and they certainly didn't arrest
her over it.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
And we know about that because those offices called in.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
Well, there'll be a history of it, right right, there'll
be a history that that that happened, that it called
in and she was given a warning or those sorts
of things, and there'll be a history that that happened.
In Daniel's case, it wasn't documented that way. However, she
made her complaint, you know, within a couple of hours
of being pulled over, which to her favor, she did

(23:49):
that because you try to look for things that someone does,
and the profile is someone who may potentially really be
a victim. And she did report almost immediately, though there's
some problems with her reporting, but she did report. But
the next day, when Daniel comes into report to lineup
before they go out on patrol, they just asked a

(24:11):
general question, Hey, did anybody here happen to pull someone
over at Northeast fiftieth and Lincoln Boulevard around two am
last night? And Daniel immediately said, yeah, that was me.
And now they already thought that it probably was Daniel.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
They had been investigating this, you know, all evening all
the next day, and they felt that it was probably
Daniel who had done that, but they wanted to see
if he would self identify, and he did immediately, and
then they hook him in and did what they called
an interview, but it was really an interrogation from from
that point on. But no, there was no there was
no record of the stop other than him when he

(24:43):
was asked about it the next day he said, Yeah,
that was me. I stopped some ladies. She was driving
slightly erradically and I just let her go.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Okay, good time. Take a commercial break with Brian Bates
is a private investigator. We're talking about the Daniel holtzklaw case.
Check out to Holtzclaw Trial dot com. It's h Oltzclawtrial
dot com. We'll be right back with more of Danielbryan
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(27:46):
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Ramsey Investigates on YouTube. Okay, welcome back to the Opperman Report.

(28:26):
We're here today with Brian Bates, private investigator. Basinvestigates dot
com and we're talking about the Daniel holtz Claw trial.
It's a Holtsclawprial dot Com is the website we can
find more information on this love the way to tell
the story, Daniel. Where can we find when your podcast
is going to start playing? Where you going to play,
what a per format you can use?

Speaker 5 (28:47):
What platform well, hopefully will be available on all of
your major platforms, you know, through iTunes and you know
what are all of your major platforms, and you'll be
able to, you know, see what I episodes are available
in that at Holtzclawtrial dot Com where I'm literally calling
it at this point Holdsclawtrial dot Com the podcast and

(29:08):
really the whole idea of doing a podcast, you know,
this many years later after the trial is and something we.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Really haven't talked about yet. I am.

Speaker 5 (29:17):
I'm one hundred percent convinced after being one of the
only people who's won sat down and talked with Daniel
Daniel never testifight at his own trial. I've spent literally
hundreds of hours with him. I've gone through every piece
of discovery evidence. I've been to the scenes multiple times,
I've talked with these people, I've watched every interview, I've

(29:39):
gone through every police report. Not only is there not
a single piece, not a single piece of direct forensic
evidence that a single one of these thirty six crimes
was committed, but there's also not a single independent third
party witness. Now, some people go, Okay, that's lawyer talk
or PI talk for my guy did it, but.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
You can't prove it. I'll go beyond that.

Speaker 5 (30:00):
I feel one hundred percent that Daniel Holtz Claude did
not commit a single one of the allegations, let alone
the eighteen that he was actually convicted for and basically
given a life sentence over. And the whole idea behind
the podcast is, I want the public to be able
to see every piece of discovery evidence. I want them

(30:21):
to read every police report, I want them to see
every videotaped interview, listen to every audio interview. And so
the whole purpose of the podcast is at the end
of each episode, and there's going to be many episodes,
at the end of each episode, all of the corresponding
discovery evidence that goes with that episode will be posted online,
so people can't say, well, that's Brian's take on it,

(30:42):
but what did the report really say? The report will
be there online and everybody will get to read it,
and everybody, I'm hoping, will come to the same conclusion
that I did, that justice was not served. And you
do not send anybody, let alone police officers, to jail
for the rest of their lives on the word of
crack addicts, street prostitutes, terrible, terrible investigative work and not

(31:07):
have a single piece of actual, direct forensic evidence, and
you can't produce a single witness. Daniel is not a
mastermind criminal, and it would take a mastermind criminal to
have thirteen victims, thirty six crimes, and seventeen crime scenes
and not leave any evidence.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Okay, we'll get into that, but I want to fish
up with Ligands here because now, how does she make
her complaint to the police at night?

Speaker 5 (31:33):
Well, what she did, and again I give this to
her credit. She did like a victim would and this
is why and something for many months when I met
with Daniel, I would tell him when he would ask me,
do you think I did it and I would say, well,
I think you probably did something that you're accused of.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
I just got to figure out what it is.

Speaker 5 (31:49):
And it took me a long time before I realized
he didn't do any of these things. But one of
the most compelling accusers is Jannie Liggins and she after
the traffic stop, and if you go to Holtz Culture
where you go to the YouTube page holds Claw trial,
I actually have the video from the traffic stop. There
was a surveillance camera on a building right there where
they were parked. Now, it's a grainy it's at night,

(32:10):
but you can see people moving around. You can get
an idea of what's happening that's posted online. Well, you
see her driving go on about her way. You see
Daniel going about his way. Apparently Janie Liggins drives home.
She lives on the other part of town. She lives
in an apartment complex. She lives with her boyfriend of
about thirty years, and they live with her adult daughter

(32:31):
who also lives with her boyfriend, and then the adult
daughter's children. So it's a whole lot of people packed
into this very small apartment. She heads home and when
she gets home, according to Jannieliggins. She wakes up, or
maybe her daughter was still awake at this point, I
don't recall. Anyway, she has a discussion with her adult
daughter and reportedly claims that she was sexually assaulted by

(32:53):
Daniel holts Claw. Then she gets in the car with
her daughter, wake up her boyfriend, a boyfriend.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
He goes to work.

Speaker 5 (33:02):
He works somewhere where he's got to be there, probably
around four or five in the morning, so he about
four in the morning, maybe he leaves and goes to work.
And this is where it gets a little strange because
the boyfriend, he reported a completely different story. He reported
that Janie Liggins called him on her way home and said,
I've just been raped by an Oklahoma City police officer.
I'm scared to death. Stay on the phone with me.
I'm on my way home. And he was so worried

(33:23):
about her. He was waiting in the front yard when
she got there, and that even though he had to
go to work because he can't lose his job, that
he followed in his car until Jane got met up
with police officers that were not one of the ones
that assaulted her. Then and only then did he go
on to work. Well, that didn't match Janie's story. Janey said, well, no,
I didn't call him because I didn't know where my
phone was. I actually thought I lost my phone during

(33:45):
the traffic stop, but come to find out, I was
sitting on it. And when I got home, I spoke
with my daughter, and my boyfriend was asleep and we
had to wake him up. And then after we woke
him up, he went on to work and we went
and reported it. So there was a pretty significant difference there.
But what it appears that happened is is regardless of
who was awake and who told who what whatever, she

(34:06):
drove across town for whatever reason, passed the downtown Oklahoma
City Police station, which is the main headquarters. It's opened
twenty four hours a day. They drive past it, and
they go back over into the spring Lake district where
she was pulled over, and they go to the spring
Lake Briefing Station, which is a very small police office.
It's closed, it's not open twenty four hours. So as
they're leaving that area, they see two officers pulled over

(34:29):
in a parking lot literally a block away from where
she says she was sexually assaulted. So there was a
high probability one of those officers might still be Daniel
Holtzclaw and they pull up and it's not. It's two
other officers, and she says she wants to group for
it being sexually assaulted by ancclomacy police officer. At that moment,
those officers immediately notify a dispatch to send out a

(34:51):
supervisor and to start the sexual assault investigator to the scene.
And then Jane is taken to a local hospital where
she's given a saint exam or a rape kit that
comes back negative for the presence of any indicators that
she had been sexually assaulted or engaged any sexual activity,
and then she gives her account of what happened to.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
The lead detective. The lead detective is Kim Davis.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
And oddly enough, even though Kim Davis either audio or
video recorded most of the other accusers, she did not
audio or video record the statements of Janie Leggins. Yet
at trial she proclaimed that Janie Lyggins was so convincing
she became convinced that Janie Liggins was telling the truth
before she had ever even talked to Daniel holtz Clau,

(35:38):
before they'd ever done any investigation. She went on the
record at trial and said I believe Janie before I
did anything else because of the way Janie was acting
and how she talked, but that she didn't bother to
record this so the rest of us could get that
same sense. As a matter of fact, she lied during
the trial and said that officers, we don't record statements
from sexual assault victim. Well, apparently she forgot that they

(36:02):
actually had recordings from many of the sexual assault victims.
So I don't understand why she was trying to mislead
people there when it was so easy to disprove. But regardless,
Janey made the report, she did the same Saint exam.
Saint Exam came back negative. Police took her allegations very seriously.
They went and found her vehicle that she'd been driving,
which her husband drove to work that day.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
They processed that vehicle.

Speaker 5 (36:26):
They immediately took Daniel's car and they processed his vehicle
because some things that became very important were when Daniel
gets interrogated, which is only hours after this traffic stop,
it's the next afternoon.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
He pulls her over at two am.

Speaker 5 (36:40):
Around three o'clock the next afternoon, he's in the interrogation
room and they're interrogating him. That an unredacted version or
underredacted copy of that interrogation is also available at Holtzclawtrial
dot com or more specifically on the holtz Claw Trial
YouTube paging, and you can watch that interrogation. In my
opinion and in Daniel's family's opinion, they're watching innocent man

(37:02):
not understand what's happening to him, and he's being as
honest as he possibly can.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
There are some really key points.

Speaker 5 (37:08):
During that during that interview process, a couple of things was,
it's one of the most odd interrogation videos you will
you will ever watch. Some of the things that these
seasoned sex crimes investigators said are extremely odd.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
I've got a piece of audio that I'd.

Speaker 5 (37:24):
Like to queue up here that is this is moments
after Daniel has come into the interrogation room and he's
meeting detectives Kim Davis, who's a female, and Detective Rocky Gregory,
who's a male.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
They're both seasoned officers, and.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
This is how they open up a discussion that they're
getting ready to have with an officer on a sexual
assault claim. And I'll play this real quick, as I
don't know if you heard that how clearly. But the

(38:00):
start off their conversation without any any lead up to it, going,
this is what ch hand.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
I masturbate with.

Speaker 5 (38:06):
They're not, I mean, he's just giving Daniels has given
his name and his badge number and just sitting down.
And they're immediately talking. You know, Rocky saying I'm asturbate
with this hand and the female detectives saying I use
boat hands. It's the most odd interrogation that you've ever heard.
But beyond that, that's how it started. But beyond that,
there were some very key differences between what Daniel said

(38:30):
happened that night, beyond the sexual assault, and what Janie
Liggins said. And these are things that could be proved
in one way or another, and every single time the
proof fell in disfavor. And a couple of examples are
Jenigans tells the police that when Daniel pulls her over,
he has her get out of the car and then
he has her place her hands on the hood of
his car while he padded her down something I'm sure

(38:52):
she's probably seen on cops or TV shows or movies,
and then puts her in the car.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
It's more like a felony stop. So they asked Daniel,
so when.

Speaker 5 (39:01):
You got Jennie Liggins out of the car, you took
her to the front of your car and you patted
her down, And he goes, no, there wasn't any I
didn't really feel there was any reason to pat her down.
I didn't feel like she was probably concealing anything or whatever.
I just got straight into the back of the car.
So that's a significant difference. So they immediately processed the
hood of his car, Jennie Lyggins's fingerprints or DNA or
anywhere on the hood of that car. So that is

(39:23):
to show that Daniel was the one telling the truth
at that point. Then later on in the story, Jenny L.
Liggins says there were a couple of cars driving by
on the street and so Daniel placed his hands up
on top of his car as he leaned in and
forced me to perform oral sex, and he was trying
to block the view of passing car. Well, there's two
problems with that statement. One, they were in the far

(39:44):
north lane up against the curb. Any cars that went
by them would be to the south of them, So
Daniel leaning into his car isn't blocking anything because the
cars aren't on the north side of him. They're on
the south side of him. But regardless, they asked, Daniel, so,
when you were talking to Jennie Lyiggins, and you know
you're probably having a hard time hearing her because of
the traffic and other things, so you leaned in and

(40:04):
then she said, you put your hands up on top
of the car as you leaned in, And he goes, no,
I never put my hands up on top of my car.
That they wouldn't be a safe position to be in
in case, you know, something happened. And sure enough they
processed the top of his car, his fingerprints and DNA.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
None of that exists on the top of his car.
Then another example, let.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Me stop you there for a second. Was he in
the habit of wearing gloves. You see a lot of
cops that wear glove.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
No, no, no gloves. He doesn't wear gloves.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Does he carried gloves with him?

Speaker 5 (40:33):
It never came up if he carried any gloves, if
he ever had gloves on him at any time. But
there was certainly there was never any concern that came up,
and certainly the prosecution never tried to forward that Daniel
wore gloves. I know in all the pictures that we
have and all the other evidence that we had with Daniel,
he never has gloves on. In my interactions with officers.
The only time I ever see them with gloves is

(40:55):
if they're dealing somethings. They deal with some of our
homeless or someone who's been in an accident, and they've
got these I guess they are issued to him, these
really bright purple latex gloves that they may put on
at that point at a scene. But that was something
that never came up or an issue was, you know,
did he have gloves on? She certainly didn't mention that
he ever had any gloves on. And then one other

(41:17):
example I wanted to give real quick because she claimed
that when he was forcing her to perform oral sex
that it was over with pretty quickly because a metallic
gold colored suv drove by very slowly, and because it
drove by slowly, it made Daniel nervous, so he immediately
stopped her from performing oral sex and said, okay, you
can go and her leave and he left. Well, when

(41:39):
you actually watch the surveillance video which is online, you
see at the point that this metallic colored suv drives by,
it's almost a full two minutes later before Jannieliggins ever.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Walks back to her car.

Speaker 5 (41:50):
So there are some pretty critical details that in each
instance Daniel says he's being truthful, Janie says she's being truthful,
But the evidence in each time supports Daniel's version of events,
which to me I thought was very telling, considering she
was probably the most credible of all of the accusers.
Another reason I thought that possibly this woman was telling

(42:11):
the truth initially was because in something that's replayed in
the media over and over and over again is why
would this woman lie? Why would this fifty seven year
old grandmother lie? And they always say this over you
have fifty seven year old this grandmother because everyone wants
you to have a certain picture in your head of
this little old grandmother who bakes pies all day and
then she sits on her patio and waits for the
grandkids to come over. That is not the grandmother that

(42:34):
Janie Leggans is. She's the only you know she had
a contact at one point. Of course, it was thirty
years ago, about the time she lost her driver's license.
She's signed of a drug manufacturing area that the police
are rating. She'll never bother get her license restored. She's
out at two am. Lots of reports are her going
out to the bars and doing things. She's not acting

(42:55):
like the grandmother that media wants you to picture in
your head. And all of that's fine. It's perfectly how
which she wants to live her life. That's perfectly fine.
But the problems that came into play then was then
why would she mitigation at trial? On the stand lead
investigator Kim Davis. And she also said to some media
interviews that false sexual assault allegations against Oklahoma City officers

(43:19):
is extremely common, so common in fact, that she herself
works at least one of those cases per month, and
she said in all of those cases, there are three
main reasons that a female will make a false sexual
assault allegation against an officer, And she said the number
one reason is to get out of a ticket or
an arrest. That doesn't apply in this case because Janie

(43:40):
wasn't arrested or ticketed. But number two is to get
back at an overly aggressive or rude police officer.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
I don't know if.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
Daniel's rude or not, but I do know that he
is aggressive. He had over a dozen use of force
complaints against him that were all found in his favor,
but he is an intimidating, big figure. I'm going to
go ahead and say that maybe she felt disrespected and
felt he was being rude because he probably did feel
like she was probably a drug addict or a prostitute,
because that area town is filled with those types of people,

(44:10):
especially those types of people that are out and about
at two am. So he probably did offend her and
probably was rude to her. And then the number three
reason is to get money. And of course Jannieliggins, along
with all of the other accusers minus one, all have
filed either state or federal lawsuits against Daniel and against
the city and are seeking millions of dollars in damages.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
So two thirds of the reasons.

Speaker 5 (44:35):
That women commonly filed false accusation against police officers do
count for Janie lggans. So to say she didn't have
a reason to do this would not be correct.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Cot clarify for me a couple of things. You mentioned
that she had went back home and then returned back
to the scene. Does she bring her daughter with her
than when she went back to the scene.

Speaker 5 (44:54):
Well, what we know for certain is that she got
home and that her boyfriend got in her car, that
she had been driving this red sedan, older red sedan.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
And that he went to work.

Speaker 5 (45:06):
And then Jane got into her adult daughter's car, and
then her adult daughter's boyfriend and their children.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
They woke them up.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
They all piled into a car and for whatever reason,
drove across town, passed the main police headquarters, and drove
back to the area where she had been pulled over.
They claim that they called into police trying to get somebody.
The police admitted that they had no record of any
such call and that they went to the Spring Lake

(45:35):
briefing station. Another detail that I forgot to mention that
I think is very important. We do know for a
fact that at some point before she actually reported the crime,
the alleged crime, that she called a cousin of hers,
a cousin of hers who happens to be an Oklahoma
City police officer. And they called this cousin and said,
Jennie Liggins, he says that she's been sexually assaulted by

(45:56):
a police officer during a traffic stop. We're going to
go to the spring Like briefing station, or we're going
to go to the police station, probably is what they
called it and reported that officer said, No, what you
need to do, which is a cousin of theirs, you
need to stay right where you are.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
You need to dial nine one one.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
You need to tell them to send out a supervisor immediately,
and that you have a serious complaint against an officer
who was just involved in a traffic as traffic stop,
and they will come to you. Even though they sought
out this cousin for advice. The cousin told them exactly
what to do, to dial nine one one and give
them the information. They chose to disregard that, even though

(46:32):
they sought his advice and instead went to these places
claim that they then called the police department. Police department
says they have no record of that call, and then
went to a station that was closed and then flagged
down to officers. Now, I do not think, I do
not think it's a stretch that if her allegations are false,
and that she made those allegations up, people will say
why didn't she do what her cousin said? And I

(46:54):
racked my brain trying to figure out why you wouldn't
do exactly what your cousin, who you called for advice,
told you to do. It's because they hadn't quite gotten
their story straight yet. And if you dial nine one one,
that's going to be recorded. So any statement you say
is going to be on tape, and they're probably going
to ask you follow up questions that at that point
they were not prepared to answer. That's the only reasonable

(47:16):
conclusion I can come to that. When your cousin the
police officer, says dial nine to one one and wait
for them to come to you, and you choose not
to do that, it's because you don't want your statement
to be recorded because you haven't quite worked your statement
out yet.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Okay, but you're familiar that nine one calls are recorded,
and I'm familiar. But do you think that she was?

Speaker 7 (47:35):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Absolutely, I think we all hear you.

Speaker 5 (47:38):
Turn on the news almost every night now and some
dateline episode or some whatever is playing back that nine
to one one call. It's something that's routinely done now,
is they play nine to one one calls back so
the public can hear them.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
And maybe I'm getting old, Maybe you're right. Now, what
about what was the lapse of time from the time
that she left contact with the holtz Claw and return
back home and then finally made that report. How many
miles is that and how much time span?

Speaker 5 (48:05):
You know, I don't have it in front of me,
so I'm going to say right now, I'm giving my
best guess, but I know for her to drive across town,
we looked it up once before. It was about a
fifteen minute drive for her to get to get from
where she was back to the apartment that she was
living in with her daughter. And that she had reported
this within a little over an hour or so after

(48:28):
the traffic stop, I'm going to say relatively quickly, not
like she immediately went to you know. Of course in
the old days we'd say went to a payphone and
called police.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
But she certainly didn't drive straight.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
She had time to make some phone calls, wake people up,
drive to the other part of town. So I believe,
if my recollection is correct, we're talking about an hour
and a half before she before she flagged down to
officers and made her report.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
And so you believe that in one hour she came
up with this idea that hey, I can make money
off of this traffic stop. When you got to remember too,
and she'd had no idea that has turned off. She
had no idea that he was off duty. She didn't
know any of these things.

Speaker 5 (49:04):
Well, no, she knew that he was off duty, because
she repeated that back. He'd even told her, I'm just
going to I just got off my shift. I really
just want to go home. I'm going to let you go,
So she knew that. She repeated that during her report.
So they had obviously during this twelve minute or so stop,
there was chit chat that was going on, and he
had shared those sorts of things. What I personally think,

(49:26):
and I have no proof that this is what happened,
but what I personally think is at least realistic as
a possibility, is that she was upset with Daniel. She
felt like she was probably treated like a common drug addict.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
She was probably treated like a prostitute.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
She was probably treated like things and in a way
that offended her. He may have even made accusations towards
her to see if she would admit to anything. I
don't know, And I think she got home and I
think she was mad. And I think when you look
up her history and you look at the number of
times that she's been evicted from different homes that she's
lived in, and financial obligations that she hasn't meitt to

(50:02):
different people, and you look at the criminal histories of
the girlfriend's boyfriend and these sorts of things. I think
she came home and I think she was pissed, and
I think she was probably going to be Daniel's number
sixteen use of force complaint, because lots of people filed
the use of forts complaints against Daniel that didn't involve
any sort of sexual activity. And I think she came
home pissed off about that and was going to do that.

(50:23):
And I think probably, I honestly, for just looking at
the backgrounds of these individuals, I think that probably Janie's
daughter's adult boyfriend may have been the instigator of this
and said that ain't going to get you anywhere, you know,
him being rude to you. Let's up the ante, And
so I think that then she decided that she and
I don't know at what point or how quickly she

(50:44):
decided she had turned it into a sexual assault claim,
but I think they decided very early on they were
going to file a complaint that possibly there was money
to be made here Janie. Janie's flat broke, they're sharing
a car with her boyfriend, she's working part time basically
at a daycare center. The husband's working overnight. Shortly got
laid off too long after this. They're sharing a car.

(51:04):
She didn't have a driver's license. They're living in a
Section eight apartment with her with her daughter. She's dead broke,
and this is a pretty good way to try to
get some money. And as even the police investigators say,
they see this all the time. And I think at
some point they went from being just a complaint about
this officer, who let's up the antie and let's make
it a sexual assault.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
And I don't think that she had any idea that
this was going to become the firestorm that it became.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Did she ever describe why he told her he was
a duty.

Speaker 5 (51:36):
She just said that he had he had well, actually,
at some point he just mentioned, you know, that he
had just had a long day in a ship, and
then said something about to the effect of, let's you know,
hurry up and get this uh you know, uh oral
sex or whatever street term you want to use, out
of the way, and then I'm going to go home.
But he had indicated however it was, And even he

(51:58):
remembers telling her that I told her you know it's late,
I'm off I'm off duty. I want to get home.
I thought this was going to be something more serious
than it was.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
It's not.

Speaker 5 (52:07):
And so I'm going to let you go because, quite frankly,
I'm being lazy and I just want to go home
at this point if it's not going to be a
good arrest, because there is like a points system that
the officers get them fell in the arrests and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
This wasn't going to get Daniel any points.

Speaker 5 (52:20):
It wasn't worth turning his computer back on and taking
her downtown and not getting home for two or three
more hours.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
And so hearing that chit chat, she knew that he
had just gotten off work.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
And you said, your theory based on the boyfriend's background
and the daughter's background Section eight and stuff like that,
have you had a chance were they deposed, or have
you had a chance to anster view them yourself and
talk to them?

Speaker 5 (52:40):
Well, they don't, you know, they wouldn't do any depositions
in a case like this. All we have to go
by our police report. They conveniently did not record. Even
though they recorded all these other statements, they recorded none
of the statements of Janie Liggins or any of her
immediate family members. Another thing that I found from actually
from the get go, that made me question the true
truthfulness of Janie Wiggins. And actually, as soon as I

(53:02):
realized that she had a boyfriend of thirty years, yet
she's over at some other man's house until two o'clock
in the morning, I found that to be a little odd.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
But you know, everybody's different. I don't know.

Speaker 5 (53:11):
It's certainly not illegal, but she said she was headed home,
And anyone who's familiar with Oklahoma City, then you bring
up a map and you look at the corner of
Northeast fiftieth in Lincoln Boulevard. She basically would have been
heading in general the same direction Daniel was, and they
were heading the same direction. But at northeast fiftieth in Lincoln,
Daniel normally would have made a right hand turn going
north on Lincoln Boulevard and got onto the highway to

(53:33):
head to where he was going. Well, that's what Janie
should have done. Also, if she truly was headed home
at that intersection, she should have indicated that she wanted
to make a right hand turn or go north, got
on the highway and headed home instead. She didn't turn
on her blanker, and even she admits she went through
the intersection and was going to continue westbound, That's not
the way she would go if she was trying to
go home. Now, she could eventually get there, but she'd

(53:55):
have to go through some slower residential streets.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
She'd have to loop back then she can at home.

Speaker 5 (54:01):
I don't know what she was doing that night at
two am, whenever she left the other gentleman's house. I
do not believe that at that moment she was heading
straight home. And I don't know why she lied about
where she was going, but it doesn't make sense that
she was going the way that she was going and
she was truly heading home. So you take that, you
take the what are you doing at two am? What
are you doing at another guy's house? Why do you
say you're heading home when it obviously appears you're not

(54:23):
heading home. Why did you give specific details about the
stop that Daniel totally contradicts different things, being touched, stuff
like that, when there's zero evidence that had happened, and
it supports Daniel's side of the story. All of those
things tell me this person is not being truthful. I
don't know Why is it because they made up all
of the allegations. Is it because that's just they just

(54:44):
go through their life and don't necessarily tell the truth.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Okay, but again too, if she was heading against another
boyfriend's house and pick up drug wherever, she was going
somewhere other than home after the stop, she did ultimately
go home, so.

Speaker 5 (54:56):
That if you watch the and here's where she tried
to say, Well, I was going home that way, I
just would Yeah, I would have meandered through the neighborhood. Well,
when the traffic stop is over, what does she do?
She makes a U turn and doubles back to the corner.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Okay, good time. Taking a commercial break. We're with Brian
Bates is a private investigator. We're talking about the Daniel
holtzklaw case. Check out to holtz Claw prial dot com.
That's h O L t Zclawtrial dot com. We'll be
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Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
It's The Opperman Report.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
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Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Okay, welcome back to the Opperman Report. I'm your host,
Private investigator at Opperman. We're here today with Brian Bates,
private investigator from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. I guess we're talking
about the Daniel holts Claw trial Hoxclaw Trial dot com
and keep an eye out for Daniel's podcast coming up
to as well. Now, Now, as you mentioned to it,

(01:00:58):
and when we tried to do the pre interview that
she then went out and hired an attorney and started
doing media.

Speaker 5 (01:01:05):
Well what she did well, we know, you know, some
of the things we don't know for sure, but based
on the timeline I was able to put together. She
reports she has a traffic stop in reports on June eighteenth,
twenty fourteen, and makes accusations against Daniel. On the twenty third,
she does her first on camera interview. This is a

(01:01:26):
woman who claims to the sexual assault victim has been reassured,
and certainly the evidence was there that police are taking
her concerns extremely seriously. They're doing lots of interviews, they're
pulling surveillance tapes, They've pulled Daniel in, they immediately took
him off the streets and put him on administrative leave.
All these things are happening against the wishes of investigators.

(01:01:48):
She goes public and goes on the news with her
with her allegations against Daniel, and that happens on the
twenty third, and what becomes really weird was there's only
one accuser at this point, only one person has made
any sort of accusation against Daniel holts Claw, and that's
Janie Liggins. But literally we know from the police reports

(01:02:10):
that on what was it on six twenty two days
after she makes a report, the Oakland City Police Department
starts to create what later becomes the perfect victim profile,
even though they only have one accuser. They have now
decided that they believe Daniel holts Claw is a serial offender,
and they immediately a lieutenant Mudsny, I have the police

(01:02:32):
reports and they will be published, where he says, let's
pull the names of every female Daniel holts Claw stopped
while on duty over the last two months, and we're
going to start interviewing these women. Well, they find out
real quickly that list is huge, so he says, Okay,
this isn't going to work, so we're going to reduce
it from all women that he stopped. Let's reduce it

(01:02:52):
to black females. So they reduce it to black females. Well,
it's the northeast part of town, so it really doesn't
reduce the list very much. The list is still huge
for whatever reason. And even though this doesn't even fit
Janie Liggins's own profile, they say, and it's in the
police report. We reduced the list again, and we reduced
it to black females with a history of prostitution and

(01:03:13):
or drug arrests.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
And then they called that Daniel's profile.

Speaker 5 (01:03:19):
No black females with the history of prostitution and drug
arrests have made any allegations against Daniel. But they came
up with the profile first. That's called confirmation bias. They
decided this is who Daniel was and this is what
he was going to do, and they developed a bias
where they only sought information. They're reinforced a conclusion they

(01:03:40):
had already drawn. And that is not me saying that.
That is in the record, in the police record, and
all of those things will will be published. And they
became part of the trial, but for some reason didn't
have the weight that I think that they should have had.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
You know, you mentioned earlier that none of these cases
they had no direct forensic evidence. But there was a
seventeen year old that they found DNA on his zipper.
I heard DNA right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yep, Yes, there was.

Speaker 5 (01:04:09):
There was a seventeen year old, dear Gardener. She had
been stopped. She actually was stopped twice by Daniel. She
Initially he was on patrol and he saw Gardener with
another female and with a known black male pimp. I
believe he went by the street name Money, and he
pulls up because it looks like a prostitution deal happening,

(01:04:31):
and he pulls up. He actually lies when he pulls up,
and he tells him there was a call about a domestic.
I think he could see from a distance kind of
arms flying, they were yelling at each other or whatever.
So he just claims that someone called it a domestic
because then that makes them feel like, oh, the neighbors
are watching us. We better watch what we're doing because
we don't have to just hide.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
From the cops.

Speaker 5 (01:04:49):
The neighbors are going to call us in if we're
doing something wrong. So he tried to use his little
tactic kid learned in the Gang Unit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
So he did that.

Speaker 5 (01:04:56):
He starts questioning them and during the conversations, one of
the girls says, well, money here is trying to trying
to pimp us out, and you know, we're just talking
to him, and yeah, he's a pimp.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
We know he's a pin of blah blah blah.

Speaker 5 (01:05:10):
And Daniel asked Gardner to He asked everyone to see
their ID, and he asked for Gardener, and Gardener didn't
have an idea on her, and he gave She gave
a you know, a name and identifying information, and come
to find out, it was all of her identifying information.
Daniel didn't necessarily believe that she was who she said
she was, and she may have been someone hiding from
a felony warren or something. But he gets a call

(01:05:32):
to go somewhere else, so he leaves. He goes on
and and he goes on to another call, and then
a few hours later comes back lo and behold there's
a gardener again out on the side of the street,
kind of doing her thing. Looks like she's probably prostituting.
It's in an area of town that has a lot
of street prostitution that goes on. She has a history
of prostitution, and so he stops her again and he says,

(01:05:55):
you know, I still don't believe you are who you
say you are. And she goes, well, I am, and
I'm staying with my and she lives right around the
corner here, and I can prove that it's me. And
I'm just heading home right now. I'm walking home. Because
oh good, Well, if you're already heading home and it's
dark and this is a bad part of town and
you're not out prostituting, hop in, I'll take you home
and we'll verify.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Who you are. And she said okay, So she gets
in the car.

Speaker 5 (01:06:18):
They drive literally if you just round the corner, and
they pull up into a house and she gets out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
She goes, oh, my mom's car's not here.

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
Her mom's drives at the time, drove one of those
trucks around it. They sell meat door to door. They
don't know if you all have them there. So you
pork chops and steaks and stuff like that out of
the back of a truck.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Three times the price and we can get in at
it's three times the price you get in the store.

Speaker 5 (01:06:40):
Right, and no telling how long it's been around whatever.
I know, I'm not going to disparage, you know, anyone
that's out there doing that or whatever. So says she's
not here and Dange're like, well, that's convenient. So how
do I know you are who you say you are?
And she goes, oh, and I don't have a key
because he's like, we can you go inside and get
your id y, get something that shows who you are. Yeah,

(01:07:01):
I don't have a key on me either, so I
don't have an idea. I don't have a key the
house you brought me to, supposedly there's nobody here. They
didn't knock her anything. And she says at this point,
they're up by the door, because that's where she realizes, oh, oops,
I don't have a key, and she claims that Daniel
at that point bent her over on the on the
porch in front of her house and raped her right there.

(01:07:24):
I vaginally raped her and then just got in his
car and drove away. And then the interesting twist of
this was later on that evening there's mother says it
was around three am. We'll come to find out it
was only really about eleven pm. Daniel calls because Daniel,
Daniel says that, well, when I dropped her off, he goes,
I didn't know what I was supposed to do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I couldn't just sit there and babysitter till somebody showed up,
he said.

Speaker 5 (01:07:47):
So I sat there for a few minutes, and I
told her, I said, well, I'm going to verify that
you are who you are, and if I see you
again and you lied, and this really isn't your house
and those things you know, you're you're going to go
to jail.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
And she's like, no, it really is me. And come
to find out, she was being honest.

Speaker 5 (01:08:01):
And so Daniel drove away, and then that evening he
drives by the house. He's on patrol and he's worre
he's supposed to be. He drives around and he sees
there's lights on in the house. There's now car out front,
so he runs the address. A contact telephone number pops
up and that happens to be Gardner's mother, and so
he dials a number and when she answers the phone,

(01:08:23):
he says it's to Daniel holtz Claw and Eklana see
police officer.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Is there an Adaria Gardner that lives there?

Speaker 5 (01:08:28):
And the mom assumes that this is a guy, a
police officer calling for her seventeen year old daughter, because
the daughter has said, and I'll actually play this, you
can hear it here in a second, this is a
really odd thing. Mom gets home that night, Adara claims
that she's just been forcefully raped by a police officer
on the porch of her own house, and her mother

(01:08:49):
says that when she gets home, first thing her daughter
or sister is, hey, mom, I met this really hot
cop today who describes their rapist as the really.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Hot cop they met today.

Speaker 5 (01:09:01):
And so all mom here is is my daughter met
this really hot cop who dropped her off at her house. Well,
then eleven o'clock at night, a cop calls and asks
if a Deera Gardner lives there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
Well, Daniel says he was calling to see if.

Speaker 5 (01:09:13):
There truly wasn't a Derek Gardner that lived there, and
he wanted to share with the mother that well, if
she gave her real identity, she's only seventeen and she's
hanging out with non pims and known prostitutes. This is
not a good thing. Well, the mom admits that she
doesn't let Daniel explain himself. As soon as he says
there's an Adara Gardner live there, she says, don't you
be calling my daughter anymore? And for whatever reason, throughout this,

(01:09:35):
this is a recorded interview that she has with the police.
With the detective, she keeps saying their daughter's thirteen. I
don't know why she keeps saying her daughter's thirteen. I
guess she doesn't know the age of her own daughter,
but her daughter was seventeen. And then just hangs up
on Daniel and she admits, I don't even let him respond,
but real quick, let me, I've got it cued up here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
I'll play the audio.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
This is a telephone conversation that occurred between sex crimes
detective Kim Davis and the mother of a there Gardner,
Amanda Gates. And this is this is just a portion
of their of their telephone call.

Speaker 6 (01:10:07):
Thank you.

Speaker 9 (01:10:18):
Became for there's a worry about it. He's look at
a day living.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Army. Look yeah, really are dead.

Speaker 9 (01:10:45):
It's so funny, okay, the morning.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
For him to do the things there you go.

Speaker 5 (01:11:33):
So, like I said, who in their right mind describes
the rapists as the hot top they're going to go
out with?

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
It was?

Speaker 5 (01:11:39):
She claims that Holtz Claw, that that Adera gave holds
Claw her mother's cell phone number, which doesn't make any sense.
Daniel has always said that, well, no, he didn't get
a phone number from her. He pulled up and ran
the address and phone, you know, a contact number pops
up for that address because the police have had contact
were before. And he saw that it was the mother
the person you know, it's a rent, but the person

(01:12:00):
who's supposed to be there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
And that's what he called. And that he didn't call and.

Speaker 5 (01:12:03):
Say, hey can I talk to Derek Gardner? He called
and said is there an a Derek Gardner that lives there?
I'm glad, seeah, you could take that as I'm asking
to talk to that person. But he's trying to verify
whether or not this person really lives there or not.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
Okay, now he's saying that he pulled up her cut
the mother's cell phone number on a rental homes database. Now,
you and we both use those databases, right, and you
know that would be very difficult to come up with
a cell phone number someone with the I saw a
picture of that house too. They down said, they're they're
a lot of good credit, these folks.

Speaker 5 (01:12:35):
It isn't the same database that you and I would
have access to. It's not a TLO or any of
those sorts of atabases. It's their own internal database that
only is available on their on their mobile data terminals.
And you bring it in and what it does is
it brings up you type in a person's name, you
get all kinds of notes about them. I've seen the
one for myself. I was allowed to take a cell

(01:12:55):
phone picture of it. It's kind of entertaining.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
And then you do an ad or you do a
person and tells you all their street names, all.

Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
Their known associates, things like that. If you type in
an address, it'll tell you all contacts that police have
had with that. It'll say people that have resided there.
You will give you all of their contact information. It's
just part of their intail that they have, So actually
it would be very calm. You could go up and
down the street and type in anyone's address and if
there's been any police contact or anything there before, you're

(01:13:22):
going to have the most recent contact. That's how they
go look for people during warrants, all those sorts of things,
so that it completely jibs with what and they they
didn't question that series of events because that wouldn't make sense.
What to me may really stood out was her describing
him as a hot pop mom admitting she never even

(01:13:43):
allowed Daniel to explain while he was calling, he was
simply calling to see does this seventeen year old actually
live there. It certainly wouldn't make sense for an officer
Paul and be trying to have a sexual liaison in
World War One with someone that he raped on the
front porch that she's now describing as hot, or to
ask this girl out again if you know, knowing that

(01:14:04):
she's underage and that he isn't. None of those details
made sense, And a couple of things you also have
to understand background wise, Adara wasn't being raised by her mother.
Adara was just in town visiting at the time. She
spent an awful lot of time in Detroit and in
other cities. She had a long documented history of being
involved in prostitution, where's based on her age, it would

(01:14:24):
actually be considered a human trafficking victim because she was
under eighteen, she couldn't even consent to the crime of prostitution.
But regardless of all of and she's had numerous arrests.
She's had arrest for breaking into a man's house and
attacking him with a machete. So this is a woman
you've got to be very careful about what she says.
So you just got to look at her actions around

(01:14:44):
this event, and those actions do not support that she
was a sexual assault victim. But then people go back
to the DNA. No, no way, wait before the decriminating DNA.
And I got to tell you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Wait, wait, Brian, before we get to the DNA. This
thing about the cell phone again, Now, has this been
because she's claiming she gave him the number and he's claiming, no,
I looked it up in his database. Has this been duplicated?
Have we been able to find out if it's in
this database. Has anybody tried to look there and see
if it's in there?

Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
I would have to go back onto the on the
transcripts and see. I know it didn't really become an
issue one way or the other, because either yes, he
could have pulled it up by just running the address
and finding out who was there through police systems, or
he could have insisted from a Derek Gardner, I want
to make sure this really is this house, and this
really is you? What's the contact phone number? And you

(01:15:32):
know it could have gone that way too. That's not
how I was told that that Daniel recalled it at
the time. Either way, both scenarios to me make perfect sense.
Either insisting on a phone number so that because you're
a minor, so I can make contact with with the
adult that lives here to find out why this miner
is kind of running free with known pimps and drug dealers,

(01:15:54):
or that you enter the inner the address into the
database and it tells you who to contact. To me,
either one's fine. It certainly wouldn't make sense that he
would rape her on the front porch. She'd say he's
this really hot cop, and then he'd be calling intentionally
knowing he's going to now get the miner's mother and
he would identify himself as a cop and try to
talk to her. Now, had he called and not identified

(01:16:15):
himself as a police officer, had he used a phone
number not associated to him in his patrol car, then yes,
that that would have been problematic.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
But that's not how it happened.

Speaker 3 (01:16:26):
Okay, But it sounds like from her point of view,
then this was from a person who has been human trafficked,
like you said, since a very young age, that she
would have low self esteem.

Speaker 5 (01:16:35):
To come back to is the You got to take
all the white ifs out of it because there's just
simply no evidence to show any of the any of
the white ifs. What we do know is that by
the time police made contact with a Derek, I mean,
this wasn't immediately after that it happened. I mean Adara
Gardner claims that this all happened back in June of fourteen.

(01:16:58):
She wasn't contact did until or the mother wasn't contact
that it wasn't identified into contacted until October of fourteen.
At that time of Era wasn't at home, She didn't
spend very much time in the news at this point.
Then her daughter calls in and says, Yep, I'm one
of those victims too. It's all very convenient because you
have to keep in mind the police had to go

(01:17:20):
out and find all of these accusers, all of these
alleged victims, the police, they had to go out and
find them.

Speaker 3 (01:17:26):
Okay, so the police had suspend, you know, they wanted
to find more victims. They contacted these the Gardner family,
and then they googled it and they saw all we
have these these accusations and just coincidentally, they just happened
to have this old background of some kind of attraction
or contact with each other on that port and you
know what I'm saying, man, And then there was her

(01:17:47):
DNA was found on.

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
His zipper, right, And that, to me, that was the
most compelling evidence against Daniel. And it was one of
the reasons that the whole time I worked on the case,
which you have to understand, I wasn't his defense I
was an investigator, really hired by the defense attorney to
try to figure out what Daniel was telling the truth
about and what he might be lying about. Because a
lot of people don't realize it. Criminal defendants lie to

(01:18:10):
their defense team all the time, and the worst thing
you want to do is be lied to and set
yourself up to step into a trapid trial. And the
DNA was one of those things. I kept telling Daniel,
I don't know an awful lot about DNA, and so
this is one that really bothers me. It was only
two weeks before trial that we met with the DNA expert,
and the DNA expert looked over the DNA test looked

(01:18:31):
over the testimony and said, this DNA evidence means absolutely nothing.
And several DNA experts now have come forward after the
fact we've reviewed the DNA evidence and said, this is
a problem that we face in today's CSI society where
we watched CSI too much and we see DNA and
we think it's saying something that it's not. And that's

(01:18:51):
what Daniel ran into. Well, I didn't know anything about
DNA or the different types of DNA, But what ends
up getting testified to even by the prosecution, was that
the DNA evidence was simply skin cells. She claims that
she was bent over and vaginally raped. Even the prosecution
admitted the DNA expert, Elane Taylor, that there was no

(01:19:13):
indications of any bodily fluids, There was no indications of semen,
there was no indications of saliva, there was no indications
of vaginal fluids anywhere. And that the DNA that was
present on the zipper, and the DNA present on the
zipper was in such small amounts that they actually found
more DNA belonging to Daniel on just a door handle

(01:19:33):
of a car where you literally touch it for a
second than they found on the zipper, And that it
was simply skin cells that could have come from any
part of your body. Well, I still think of all
the places where it end up, your zippers a pretty
bizarre place for that to happen. That's what's going on
through my mind. DNA expert point I said, well, here's
the problem with it. They didn't test anywhere but the zipper.

(01:19:54):
So for all we know, her DNA was inside of
his pockets, her DNA was on the cuff of his pants.
Her DNA could have been anywhere that Daniel would have touched.
Because one of the things that did stick out was
from the reports. When Daniel stopped the three individuals, a gardener,
the other female in the pimp, he patted everybody down,
and by Gardner's own admission, she was wearing this little

(01:20:15):
crop top kind of thing. She had skin that was exposed.
The male officers are allowed to pat the women down.
They do it, you know, they have a certain procedure they.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
Follow, but they can make hand you know, skin to
skin contact with them.

Speaker 5 (01:20:27):
Patted them down. But then Daniel also and Derek Gardner
admitted to this a trial. Daniel spent a lot of
time going through her purse looking for contraband she had
combs inside there. She had many personal items that would
have had her DNA on them, and his hands.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
Are all over those items.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
Now, at any point Daniel goes to as guys will do,
adjust himself, goes to use the restroom, goes to do
any of those sorts of things. Any DNA that could
be on his hand could be transferred, and they call
it transfer DNA or touch DNA. The one thing that
bothers me the most and should bother people when this
thing came to trial, two things bothered me. One Elaine

(01:21:06):
Taylor testified to an awful lot of things about the DNA.
She was the state's DNA expert for the police department.
One thing that she never bothered to disclose was that
she was the mother in law of lead investigator Rocky Gregory.
She never says that, oh, I may have a little
conflict here because the second lead investigator is my son
in law. We thought that was a little problematic. But

(01:21:27):
the big thing scientifically was she testified that they found
this girl's DNA on there. But what she didn't testify
to and what her test clearly show, and it's part
of Daniel's appeal, is that she also found DNA belonging
to other people on the fly of Daniel's pants, males,
and that she testified that Daniel was excluded as being

(01:21:49):
one of the contributors. So she testified that another male's
DNA was also on the zipper of his pants, and
she testified she had excluded Daniel.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
It wasn't him.

Speaker 5 (01:21:59):
So if you're going to claim to the DNA of
Adaric Gardner being on his zipper proves that he sexually
assaulted her, then you also have to assert that I
guess he also raped some man that never came forward,
and I think people would have to make your starting
to look a little desperate at that point. I don't
know a lot about DNA, but I know I educated
myself on it. When you start googling touch DNA or

(01:22:21):
transferred DNA, it is really scary. There have been instances
where individuals were charged with crimes and come to find
out they were never at the scene, they never touched
the murder weapon. But if you and I shake hands
and then I go pick up a gun, there is
a relatively good chance your DNA is on that gun
and you've never even seen that gun before. That's how

(01:22:43):
specific and precise DNA testing has become at this point.
It didn't used to be that specific and precise, but
it is now. And they never admitted to that. And
what was scary was the jurors admitted later that they
were actually ready to acquit Daniel Holtzklow because there simply
was any direct evidence. But it was the DNA that

(01:23:03):
really convinced them that something must have happened. And the
problem with that came with the prosecutor, Assistant District Attorney
Galen Gigger. The very last thing he was allowed to
say to the jury before they went back.

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
To deliberate was he specifically said.

Speaker 5 (01:23:18):
That that DNA came from the vaginal walls of a
seventeen year old and that's how it got on his zipper.
And that is not as what was testified to their
own DNA experts said there was no presence of vaginal fluid,
semen or any other fluids, and that that DNA was
simply skin cells vaginal DNA, and I guess assumed somebody
would object at that point, but it's closing arguments, so

(01:23:39):
you get a lot of leeway. And they admitted later
that it was a DNA testimony that convicted you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
Know, Okay, we got to take a commercial break with
Brian Bates, a private investigator. We're talking about the Daniel
Holtzklaw case, and you find it at Holtzklaw Trial dot com.
If you just tuned in keep an eye on for
Daniel's podcast and be coming up. You can find that
at Holtsclaw Trial dot com. And also so if you
need a PI over there in Oklahoma, check out the

(01:24:07):
real quick what is this saying again, Bates Investigates, Bates
Investigates dot com. We'll be right back after these messages
with more Brian Bates and the Daniel Holtzclaw case.

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Opperman Report. We're here with Brian Bates, private investigator. We're

(01:28:39):
talking about the Daniel holtzklaw case. So now, Brian, I
got I'm confused about something here because we talked about
he had the Ligands accusation and he was pulled. He
was pulled off patrol right after that allegation, right right.

Speaker 5 (01:28:52):
The afternoon of the eighteenth. He was he was they
took it well, actually, if you watch the interrogation online,
they took his badge, they took his gun, they took
his clothes from him. He took his pants off during
the interview because those are the same pants that he
had on, which is interesting. The pants they found the
DNA on were the pants that he had on. Now,

(01:29:13):
she claims that she was raped on the seventeenth, which
would have been you know, he had a shift that
started on the seventeenth into two am on the eighteenth.
They're claiming that he sexually assaulted three women on his
final shift. He sexually assaulted a Daria Gardner, who's a
seventeen year old, a woman by the name of Kayla Lyles,
and Jannie Liggins, a grandmother, all three within one shift.

(01:29:34):
They take his pants and yet they found the DNA
of a Darra Gardner, but it's skin cell DNA. They
find no evidence of any sexual fluids on his pants
at all, but they don't find DNA from the other
two alleged victims. And something else that I found interesting.
Even though he offers it up, he says, I'll do anything.
I'll take a light detector, you can search anything, do

(01:29:55):
whatever you got to do. They don't even go to
his apartment and grab his He has three more changes
of uniform. They don't even take his underwear. They think
this guy is a serial rapist, and they let him
keep his underwear on. They don't take him. They don't
go to his house and get into his dirty clothes
hamper to get other clothes that he had on or
other underwear so they can try to find more DNA.

(01:30:16):
They don't take his cell phone to examine it. They
don't take his computers to try to examine them. They
don't do any of those things that you would assume
just would be police work.

Speaker 1 (01:30:24):
One oh one, oh boy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:27):
But you, hey, man, he might have gotten lucky because listen,
you know, if you're a claiming okay, it's so common
to get you you pull somebody over on a traffic
stop and you get their DNA and your zipper. Then
he would have all these women's DNA on his zipper
and his underwear and his socks, now, wouldn't he, he's.

Speaker 5 (01:30:45):
Saying, man, just like you pointed out, yeah, then you
also get mailed DNA there too, So you either got
to decide does that mean he has mailed victims or
are you willing to concede. It's just very common to
pass DNA around when you come into contact with DNA
because you can. I'm into physical contact with people all
day long. Are you saying he had male and female victims,
or are you willing to admit that DNA simply is transferred

(01:31:07):
a whole lot easier than the general public understands.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
No, DNA has transmitted a lot easier than the general
public understands. I'll absolutely say that. But now are you
trying to tell me, though, that you believe that I'm
not saying that he deserves two hundred years or a
life sentence for his contact with this traffic seventeen year old.
But do you believe that his contact back and forth
with his seventeen year old picking her up off the street,
on a second contact with her, driving her home, having

(01:31:32):
some kind of where she feels that she went to
the extreme effort of telling him that I've just met
a hot cop who wants to date me, then calling
the home there and then all of this activity with
the seventeen year old. You find that appropriate?

Speaker 5 (01:31:46):
Well, I think, well I didn't. There certainly wasn't anything
illegal about what was being said. I could certainly see
a seventeen year old. If you get Daniel Holtzklaw, who
is a big guy, a big good looking guy. He stops.
He's he probably was acting friendly with her, trying to
get her to feel comfortable with him and share some
additional information and details.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
And she thinks, you know, he's a good looking guy,
and she's.

Speaker 5 (01:32:07):
Spent the better part of her young life, you know,
involved in sexual activities, either either consensually or non consensually,
and so she probably she may have perceived him most
women probably perceived him as a good looking guy. But
to try to think that she was raped and then
referred to him as a hot cop, and that she

(01:32:27):
gave out her mother's phone number to him, and he
called her mother, knowing that she's a miner to try
to talk to her. None of those things makes sense
at all. And when Danga wasn't able to explain himself,
because she even admits I just hung up on him
as soon as she as soon as he said as
an Adrek Gardner lived there, you know, it didn't give
a chance for him too, even to defend himself. But

(01:32:48):
what there isn't present is there is not any evidence
that a sexual assault occurred. And of course we've talked
about two of the thirteen that leaves eleven.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
But of those two Janie Liggins.

Speaker 5 (01:32:58):
He received twenty one years for her accusation, not a
shred of evidence that a crime was committed. Many of
her details didn't match Daniel's details, but Daniels held up
under the scrutiny of forensic examination. Yet he's still got
twenty one years. A Derek Gardner, which there was DNA present,
but the DNA was simply skin cell DNA, and she's
referring to her supposed rapist as a hot cop never

(01:33:20):
claims that she's been raped until they google him find
out that he's accused of raping somebody. He gets fifty
years from her. But that's not the one that should
blow your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
Before we get to that last one, let me just
test it this. This is a cop who has twenty
twelve aggressive cop complaints against him in twenty four months, okay,
And now he's talking to his mother. He's calling into
according to him, to investigate this girl to find out
what them to warn the mother, and the mother just says,
I don't want to talk to you. I'm hanging up,
And this aggressive cop doesn't call back and say, wait

(01:33:52):
a minute, hold on, this is a police investigation. I
need to talk to you. I'm coming over there right now.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
Well, it wasn't a police investigation. She hadn't committed a crime.

Speaker 5 (01:34:00):
He simply wanted to verify that the person that was
giving him the identifying information, that's who that person was,
and if it was, he simply wanted to inform the
mother that your minor daughter is running around with people
that I know to be pimson prostitutes. And it either
needed to serve as a warning or the mom would
be like, son of your damn business, who my daughter
runs around with?

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:34:21):
Earlier that day, something we didn't talk about. Earlier that day,
the mother had had a confrontation with her daughter because
she had just reported her daughter as a runaway for
the umpteenth time. She remarked to the police officer, she
runs away all the time. She ran away that day?
Where did her mother go to? Looking for on the
stroll where all the street prostitutes are. So she drove
over to the south part of town, another area where

(01:34:42):
there's lots of prostitution, and she assumed her mother wouldn't
find her. Her mother drives down there, sees her daughter
out on the street South Robinson, most likely prostituting confronts
her daughter. Her daughter hits her in the face. Mother
calls police and says, I want to report my daughter
as a runaway because she's a miner, and I want
to report that she assaulted me. She signs a ticket
for assault and battery against her daughter. At trial under oath,

(01:35:06):
her mother denies all of it, denies everything. No, we
didn't get into a confrontation. No, she didn't hit me, ma'am.
Here's the ticket you signed. Oh, I didn't know what
I was signing, ma'am. At the top it says really
big domestic assault and battery. Yeah, I didn't. I don't
remember signing that. I don't think I ever did. Her
mother is not to be trusted or believed. Obviously, the
daughter has a troubled pass so there's no telling how

(01:35:27):
she's perceiving things or what she.

Speaker 1 (01:35:30):
Might have thought. Daniel, you know a guy being nice
to her? What does that mean? Oh? Is he flirting
with me? Or ah? Is he just being nice to me?

Speaker 5 (01:35:36):
But I don't think under any stretch of the imagination,
you describe your rapist as a hot cop, and then
you have a mother that signs domestic assault and battery
complaints against her own daughter, and then goes into a
court and doesn't care that she's under oath and says, no,
it didn't happen, even though her signature is on the
complaint from that day. Again, when you dealing with cases

(01:35:57):
that don't have any direct forensic evidence, don't have any witnesses,
the only thing you can rely on is credibility, and
they've yet to produce a single credible witness. And again,
like I was saying, the one that should blow your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
But let me get to that, and I want to
get to it. But what about polygraphs? Were there any
polygraphs in this investigation?

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
Daniel?

Speaker 5 (01:36:16):
As you see if you watch the interrogation video, he
offered to do a polygraph and said he would do one,
and they said they weren't prepared to give him one
on that day. Well, as soon as he leaves he
is because he's part of the Paternal Order of Police,
he initially became under their legal guidance. And when they
contacted the FOP for him to do a polygraph exam,
their attorney of Susan Knight I believe is their name,

(01:36:39):
she said, no, we don't allow any police officers to
do polygraph tests.

Speaker 1 (01:36:43):
We don't allow them to do them. And Daniel didn't
know about this.

Speaker 5 (01:36:46):
He wasn't told about it till later when we got
the case, when he hired private council because FOP stopped
representing him. When he got private counsel, we offered him
up for a light detector and said, you know, we'll
give him light detector under the conditions that any of
the accusers that he passes, whether it's one of them
or all of them, you drop the charges associated with

(01:37:07):
that accuser. And the prosecutor would not agree to that.
And I know why the prosecutor wouldn't agree to it's
Galen Gigger. He knows that mister Adams, the attorney, he's
not going to offer somebody up for a light detector
if he thinks that they're going to fail. And he
didn't want to get into an agreement with this high
profile case all of a sudden falls apart in front
of him. Is because the defendant passes a light detector.
And people can say whatever they want about light detectors,

(01:37:29):
but they're used routinely in law enforcement. Daniel had to
take one before he got on the force. Our county
routinely uses light detectors to decide whether or not they're
going to file charges against somebody regardless of their admissibility
in a courtroom. And when we got ready for trial
and we offered Daniel up for a light detector and
they said no, it's because they feared the results of
that light detector.

Speaker 3 (01:37:50):
We did not, but none of the victims either took
a line detecting.

Speaker 5 (01:37:54):
No, they would know there'd be no expectation for a
sexual assault victim or accuser to take a light detector test,
so that was never even offered to them.

Speaker 3 (01:38:02):
Okay, we got fifteen minutes. I know you want to
sum it up as good as you can in fifteen minutes.

Speaker 5 (01:38:07):
The last get a couple of key things people need
to understand. One is accuser Sherry Ellis. And the whole
reason I point her out is because Daniel received the
most number of years from her allegations alone. He got
sixty two years. That in itself is a life sentence.
He got sixty two years. What's key to note about
her is she told the police very specifically, and I'm
getting ready to play the audio clip. She told police

(01:38:29):
that her rapist was a short black man, short black man,
Daniel is six foot two, pale, white in complexion, and
she swears at her attacker is a short blackmail. Also,
for anyone who's ever attended a trial, there's always this
procedural thing where they say, can you pick out the
defendant the person who committed the crime against you? And

(01:38:50):
it's a no brainer. It's it's the guy in handcuffs,
sweating his ass off, sitting over there in the corner.
She looks around the court room and says, no, I
cannot still sixty two years. I want you to hear
this real quick in case anyone that doubts me. This
is this is her. She's in an interrogation room and
she's talking to Detective Kim Davis.

Speaker 1 (01:39:08):
Let me ask you this. Do you give me tell
me your descriptions him?

Speaker 3 (01:39:19):
How tall? Could you tell us?

Speaker 6 (01:39:24):
How old are you?

Speaker 10 (01:39:28):
How tall are you?

Speaker 7 (01:39:29):
Final eleven?

Speaker 5 (01:39:40):
There you go. It's a black male. She is five eleven,
and he's shorter than her. It's a short black male.
Daniel's several inches taller than her and pale and complexion.
And he gets a life sentence the most number of
years based on her claim alone. And here's the other
thing about it. Everyone wants to talk about the GPS
or what's actually referred to as a VA well, and

(01:40:00):
that's the GPS within the patrol car. She was stopped
while she was walking on the street, and she admits
that she had an eye to eye, face to face
conversation with Daniel. Daniel ran her like he ran so
many other women, and she had warrants, but they're misdemeanor warrants.
They weren't for new crimes. They were for not paying
your ticket. You get arrested, you're supposed to pay a

(01:40:22):
jail fee, and you got to pay a ticket and
some court costs. And virtually nobody on the north east
side of town does those sorts of things. So they
admitted everyone's got these warrants that are walking around out there.
But Daniel uses that an opportunity of can you tell me,
you know, I see you got these warrants, but it's
no big deal. We can let them go. What's the
drug activity? Who are the big players? Where the drug
houses on this part of town? She says, like so

(01:40:44):
many other people, I can't be seen out here talking
to you about stuff. I will be branded a snitch.
Bad things happen to snitch snitches Daniel says, fine, get
in the car, So she gets in the car. They
start driving. She starts telling him things, but Daniel's like,
it's all the drug house, the drug houses we all
know about it, to drug houses that were closed down
three or four months ago. This information's no good. He

(01:41:05):
drives past, as they call it, the abandoned school yard,
but it's actually where school used to be, and it's
now public park with actually some pretty nice equipment on it.
He lets her out and he goes on. She claims
that no, they had the conversation. He puts her in
the car. He drives her to the abandoned school. He
parks his car, he gets her out of the car,
he bends her over, he sexually assaults her. Then he

(01:41:26):
tells her she can go. The problem is the GPS
or the AVL in his car does not match that story.
It shows him pulling up and stopping. He radios her in.
He's not trying to hide it. It's part of the
radio traffic. He calls her in.

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
That's how you find out that she's got some warrants.
Then it shows him driving through the park area and
proceeding on. He never stops his car at no time
does the GPS give a zero speed reading, So there
was at no time that he stopped his car and
bent her over and sexually assaulted her. But none of
that seemed to Matt.

Speaker 5 (01:41:59):
It didn't seem to matter with the jury that he's
not short, he's not black, and the GPS doesn't match.
They gave him sixty two years anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:42:06):
But there was a second victim who mentioned that same park, right.
He was an additional.

Speaker 5 (01:42:11):
Victory, Kayla Lyles, which was the third of that last
and he was found not guilty of that assault.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
Really, yep, And it was just what's.

Speaker 5 (01:42:18):
Weird, And I'll admit this is a bizarre This is
what tells me that I don't care what the jury says.
They didn't take this case seriously. They were afraid about
the chanting. They were afraid of the fact that we
literally had black panthers showing up in full military uniform
sitting in the audience. They openly talked about what's going
to happen if we acquit this guy, They're going to
burn the city down. They were literally chanting outside the window,

(01:42:42):
giving life, give him life. During the trial, this is
going on, and one of the legal observers commented that
even when the judge told the jury, oh, disregard those
the chanting going out on outside the window, it was
like throwing a skunk into the room and telling people
not to smell it. All of this is going on,
and the jury was actually absolutely petrified what was going

(01:43:04):
to happen if they found him guilty. So they literally,
as the lead prosecutor even said.

Speaker 1 (01:43:08):
They split the baby.

Speaker 5 (01:43:10):
They took the thirty six counts, They divided him in half.
Wherever they falls, wherever they fall. In the Kayla Lyles case,
and I'll get into this on my podcast in depth,
but in that case, it was a frustrating one because
there just wasn't much evidence there at all. It was
just this stop that happened. She claims she was taken
to this abandoned school yard and she was rape. Well,
the GPS actually shows that he was in that abandoned

(01:43:30):
school yard and that his vehicle actually did come to
a zero speed and actually did stop. But the jury
said not guilty. There wasn't anything that proved or disproved it.
Not guilty. You got a woman saying all these terrible
things happened to her, but he's a short black man
and we stopped here. But the GPS says that you
really didn't stop there. But he's guilty of that one,
and we're going to give him life. To me, what

(01:43:52):
that proved that the jury did not take their obligation
seriously in that court room.

Speaker 3 (01:43:59):
You know, I watched Michelle Malcoln. Yes, right, and now
she makes a big point of that Black Lives Matter
was outside put it looked like twenty five people out
there protesting that.

Speaker 5 (01:44:10):
No, there were every day. It was different, different times
of the day, it was different. There was a lot
of people out the courtroom. We were in a pretty
decent sized courtroom. Was they were turned people away, people
were packed out. If you saw any of the photos,
people were pushing and shoving them their way in. People
were caught taking photos of the jurors during the trial.

(01:44:30):
You only take pictures of jurors for one reason. You
take a picture of a juror because you're trying to
intimidate them. You're trying to let them know if you
don't come back with a verdict that we want, we
will find out who you are.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
Now. Michelle Malkin, she has a background of anti immigration.
She's very much against Black Lives Matter. Now, do you
have an opinion on that kind of thing or do
you have a bias toward Black Lives Matter?

Speaker 5 (01:44:52):
Well, no, And it isn't even something that if someone said,
you know, tried to detail Black Lives Matter in the movement,
I probably couldn't give you very accurate one because it's
just it isn't anything I've ever been involved in. I
certainly can say this. People who know me locally know
I am not a cheerleader of police. As a matter
of fact, the very first thing Daniel said to me
when I walked in the room and introduced myself is

(01:45:14):
he looked up any kind of smirked, kind of a
cocky guy look up and smirked and said, I know
who you are. They taught us about you at the academy.
I'm someone that the police does not look at as
a friend. So to say that Daniel and I were
very unlikely allies, that's an understatement. I'm not someone who
cheerleads the police. I have filed several grievances with the police.

(01:45:36):
Every single time those grievances are found in my favor,
unless I don't have it recorded, which is the magic
thing if it's on tape and it's indisputable, it's in
your favor. If it's not on tape, it's never going
to be in your favor. So yes, I certainly think
that there are parts of the Black Lives Matter movement
about violence against minorities and all I think are extremely valid.

(01:45:56):
I think when you're showing up to a courtroom wearing
military uniform, you're outside the window yelling give him life
instead of letting the judicial process play out that I
don't care whose lives you say that matter. You're disrespecting
the process and you're not allowing somebody a fair shot
at justice.

Speaker 3 (01:46:14):
What's the hope of getting a new trial, and what
would you base it on. Were there any errors or
that you get an appeal?

Speaker 5 (01:46:20):
Well, you know, I think there were some pretty big errors.
I think one of the biggest errors was in the DA.
Here's what you have to look at. You could eliminate
four or five or two or three whatever of the
accusers he was found guilty of, and he would still
have enough years that it makes it a life sentence.
What you have to appeal on, you have to appeal
on things that affected each and every one of the accusers,

(01:46:40):
and I think the DNA is that and I think
that that's played out because the jurors have come forward
and say it was a DNA testimony that most convinced
them that Daniel must have done something. So I think
where the appeal stands the best chance is where they
can show that one Elaine Taylor is a direct relative
of one of the investigators, so therefore she was exposed
to an awful lot of conversations that she wouldn't have

(01:47:03):
otherwise known. I think that she falsely and testified outside
the scope of her experience.

Speaker 1 (01:47:08):
When all after Daniel was convicted.

Speaker 5 (01:47:10):
And they immediately filed an appeal based on her DNA testimony,
she immediately retired, literally retired within days of Daniel being sentenced,
because the appeal had to be filed in so many
days after his sentence. And then they had If you
google it, there's a lot of news stories on it.
They start having closed door secret meetings, specifically about Elaine Taylor,

(01:47:31):
the DNA expert. Daniel and his lawyer were not allowed
to attend the Court of Criminal Appeals. Just within the
last week came out and said that was an error
that his attorneys should have been allowed to attend these
very secretive hearings, and it's something that the appeals court
is looking at. But I think if he's granted an appeal,
I think what will happen. He will be a new trial,
and won't They won't simply just throw out all the

(01:47:53):
charges and releasing. What I hope is what he'll get
is a new trial will be based on the fact
that there was false testimony with the DNA, and that
false testimony ultimately affected every single count.

Speaker 3 (01:48:06):
I gotta tell you, Brian, I'm really impressed with your
the way you present this case. You know, your advocate
for your client, and I got a lot of respect
I can. I can tell you know you're good at
your work, and you obviously you've done one hundred million
times more you know, looking into this than I have.
You know, I have to I have to give that
a lot of weight. You know, you spend a lot
of time working on this and you've come to this conclusion.

(01:48:28):
It's just from the these things that I have a
lot of problems with these other issues, especially with the
seventeen year old girl. Is contact with the seventeen year old.
But again, I guess we could come to a conclusion
he could be factually found not guilty if you could
throw out the DNA. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
In my mind, the most I'm asking for for people.

Speaker 5 (01:48:52):
People don't have the intimate knowledge the discovery that I do.
So the most I'm asking for people is the expectation
of our judicial system. And before we lock somebody up
in prison for life, do we at least have an
expectation that it's based on direct evidence and or a
third party, independent witness testimony, or are we willing to

(01:49:13):
give to the end of the whims of groups like
a Black Lives Matter or the social climate at the time.
And are we now telling prosecutors as long as you
pile on accusers, you get a conviction, even if there
is no evidence, even if there are not witnesses. If
you can pile on, you will win, and people will
be sent to prison for the rest.

Speaker 1 (01:49:31):
Of their life.

Speaker 3 (01:49:32):
Right But they prosecutors normally wouldn't been able to pile
on unless they had victims won't come forward, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:49:39):
But they had to knock on doors. And here's the problem.

Speaker 5 (01:49:41):
And this has played out and I know we don't
have time for it, but tape after tape after tape.
They didn't go to these people and say, come, we'd
like to talk to you. Was there anything inappropriate or
anything that happened during a police stop in the last
year or so that you would like to let us
know about.

Speaker 1 (01:49:55):
They didn't do that.

Speaker 5 (01:49:56):
They literally knocked on doors and said, we believe that
you are victim of a sexual assault by an Oklahoma
City police officer.

Speaker 1 (01:50:03):
Tell us about it.

Speaker 5 (01:50:04):
And if that person didn't answer the door, they told
their relatives about it, and the relatives over and over again.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
Through testimony, it was.

Speaker 5 (01:50:10):
Revealed they admitted that they had seen the reports on
the news. They googled the information, and they contacted people
and let them know. These accusers did not come forward
on their own. Their doors had to be knocked on.
They had to been told that not only do we
think that you're a victim, but you we want you
to tell us about it, and then they magically became victims.
One of the one of the ones that really stuck

(01:50:33):
out the most was of Carla Rains. Seven times during
her recorded interview said I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm not the victim of anything. How did you even
get my name? I don't understand none of that was
listed in Rocky Gregory's report. He didn't list a single
time that she said no. He kept on her and
kept saying, this is a really bad dude. We've got
to get him off the streets. Surely there's something you

(01:50:55):
remember that he did, like maybe exposed in yourself, maybe whatever.
And then she literally says, oh, wait, I get it.
I get where you're coming from. I get it now. Yeah,
there was this one time. That's not how you conduct
an investigation.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
Brian Bates. I got to take my hat off to you, man,
Brian Bates, Bates investigates dot com. If you're in trouble
down there in Oklahoma, run to Brian Bates came in
Bates Investigates dot com, a very passionate advocate for his client.
I got to take my hat off to that man.
Holtzclaw Trial dot Com is the website that covers is
Brian holtz Claw case. There's going to be a podcast

(01:51:32):
about this and I'm eagerly awaiting it. Brian. Anytime, if
anything new comes up in this case, you want to
come back on the air, just call me up, I
put your repick on, we'll book it. Because you're very
flexible with your schedule too, so we'll do it right away. Man,
I really appreciate this. You're a great guest.

Speaker 1 (01:51:46):
Hey, I appreciate it too. I appreciate the.

Speaker 5 (01:51:47):
Time, and all I'm asking for your audience is take
the time to educate yourself and don't leave it to
the media and to the headlines. Do the investigative work yourself.
It's all going to be there, it's all going to
be online. You'll be able to read it, every word
of it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:00):
I gotta agree with that too. Being involved in a
lot of high profile cases, what you see on TV
is not what's really going on day to day in
these cases. They have their own version of events. But
thank you, Brian Bates, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:52:12):
Ah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
Can I I really like Brian Bates. I like this guy.
But again, still, I'll be doing a little wrap up
on this. I have a little thirty minute wrap up.
I got Vic here today. She's going on vacation for
two weeks. I'm gonna we're gonna go out for a
little Whi'm gonna come back and do the wrap up
about thirty minutes on this. I could talk about this
for hours, though, Man, I got a lot of opinions
on this, but we'll be right back after these messages.

(01:52:35):
I'll be a little wrap up.

Speaker 7 (01:52:37):
he not?

Speaker 8 (01:52:41):
by the best seller Double Cross for Blood, an independent
investigation of the trial of this century, the live, the myths,

(01:53:02):

Speaker 7 (01:53:04):
Don't miss Spence Rising.

Speaker 3 (01:53:07):
Vimeo Videos on Demand. Watch it for one dollar and
ninety nine cents. Okay, thank you so much. Brian Bates
Bates Investigates dot Com. Trust me, if you're in trouble
over there in Oklahoma City or that Oklahoma area, contact
Brian Bates even before you contact an attorney, and he'll

(01:53:30):
help you get an attorney. Trust me in this this
kuy knows what he's doing. He's very, very passionate advocate
for his clients. This guy's no joke. I do a
lot of investigators out there, all right. And then even
though the run across the guy even know the name
of this client. The ninety percents out. Okay, I'm gonna
have a lot to say about this. I have my

(01:53:51):
own opinions on this, but then again, I haven't started
this case the way Brian has. But you know, just
some stuff that just jumps right at me. Man, I'm
not uncomfortable with having this man behind me. Let's put
it that way from the information I have so far,
and I'll just comment on that, but again, tipping my
hat to Brian Bates is doing great work. My commentary
will be about thirty minutes. It'll be in the members

(01:54:11):
section at Operamanreport dot com. Now, what's in the member section.
We have about one hundred and twenty five one hundred
and thirty exclusive shows in there that you won't hear
live on the radio. You won't hear it on the
internet stations. It's not on YouTube, it's not on a preaker,
it's unavailable. But for the membership section. The member the
membership section is very inexpensive. Okay, it's only six bucks

(01:54:35):
a month, So you can't go wrong with this man
and help. It's helped support the show, helps keep the
show on the air. Besides our great sponsors like cartking
dot com. This is what keeps the show on the air,
and this is what helps us get on more stations
and get bigger guests and stuff like that. So if
you want to support the show, if become a member,
if you want to contact me directly, I'm going to
give you a discount on the membership. Don't give you

(01:54:56):
thirteen months for only sixty bucks. So as you can see,
get in like three months free. It's a great, great, great,
great deal. Three or four months free. It works at
a great deal. Be contact me directly at opperaman Report
at gmail dot com. You hear all my commentaries on
the show, which you just started doing. I have court
docs in there, we have photographs in there, I have
some videos in there, all kinds of great content at

(01:55:18):
Operamanreport dot com. Contact me directly at opperman Report at
gmail dot com for a big discount and just say, hey, Ed,
I want that big discount, and I'll email it back
and I'll say, hey man, you got it. Okay, And
that's pretty much how it goes. Try and hit the
conversations down to a middle. Okay. I appreciate what he
was wanting to become a member. But come on, hey

(01:55:38):
can I Yeah, I get like two hundred emails a day. Guys,
you have no idea contact. We got others well bought
to these shows and hey, Ed, can you do me
a favorite? Yeah, to your favor, give me a break man,
So support the member section there that way the videos
court documents. I got another twenty four page a letter

(01:56:00):
Jeffrey Epstein claims that he created the Clinton Foundation. You
know you don't find it anywhere else, uh McMartin preschool,
Tim Tait, who was the director and producer, was high
conspiracy of silence, great stuff, Steve Bannon's porn and meth
house stuff you're not gonna find anywhere else. Exclusive content.

Speaker 1 (01:56:21):
M h m.

Speaker 3 (01:57:20):
Remember all these shows on Awake are brought to you
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Speaker 6 (01:58:14):
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(01:58:35):
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