Neal Boyle: Son of Kerry, Son of Sam

Neal Boyle: Son of Kerry, Son of Sam
Serial killer David Berkowitz aka ‘Son of Sam’ carried out eight deadly attacks between 1976 and 1977 in New York City. The horror of that time remains ingrained in American cultural memory but the man who caught the monster has, until now, remained in the shadows.

Forty years on, journalist Seán Mac an tSíthigh travels to New York to uncover the incredible story of how Irish born NYPD Deputy Inspector Timothy Dowd led the largest manhunt in New York history to capture one of America’s most notorious serial killers.

Directed by Neal Boyle, this captivating drama-doc journeys through the boroughs of New York and this extraordinary case. With remarkable access, the film retraces the NYPD investigation, to reveal the relentless steps Tim Dowd and his taskforce took to track down ‘Son of Sam’, under an intense political and media spotlight.

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Episode Transcript

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interesting show for again, covered the Sun of Sam case
many times from many different angles. On this show. Today
we have a friend from Ireland across the pond there,

(02:03):
as they'd like to say, okay, we have a big
Irish audience. We have Neil Boyle and he just produced
a documentary called Son of Kerry, Son of Sam.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Mister Boyle, are you there, hid, Yeah, I can hear you.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Okay, great, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Tell the audience who is Neil Boyle?

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Whom I am an Irish independent filmmaker. I've worked primarily
in documentary for over twenty years now, so I'm always
on the lookout for something interesting, a lot of foreign stuff.
It would be a norm for Irish people to look
abroad because we have such a broad diaspora, and America
is always a big pull as well. I think the
first thing I did when I started working for a

(02:44):
documentary company twenty odd years ago was Stories from Irish America,
which was a sixteen part series about the Irish in America.
That was fantastic, you know, so I stayed working. I
initially was a cameraman. I worked my way up to
becoming a producer director and now that's that's what the
business is. I make documentaries for Irish TV.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
And your website is iwrmedia dot com. And if people
want to get a hold of this film, A Son
of Kerry's Son of Sam, you should go to that
website and contact Meal Boil and work out a little
deal with a man cabin Is it just screened there
in Ireland, just recently screened, just in early May, so
it just came out. Now, what what caught your attention

(03:25):
to the Son of Sam case?

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, what I suppose I'm always in the lookout for
a story that I can tell. And you know, and
anybody who's in independent production out there will know, you
have to look at how you can finance something. And
in Ireland it's usually Irish interest is what catches a
broadcaster's attention. If an Irish audience is interested in it,
then you can tell the story. So a couple of

(03:49):
years ago, I just came across an article online that
said that the man responsible for catching the Son of
Sam was from Kerry in Ireland, and I thought, right, okay,
I believe that or not. I'm not sure it's worth
checking out because Son of Sam is like, I mean,
everybody's heard of some Sam, like I'm approaching fifteen now,

(04:09):
but you know it is a household name now, and
that's how big the case was forty years ago. So
I thought, if we're checking out, it was he a
cop who was just you know, in the area. Was
he there for the arrest? Was he something more senior?
Was he as they they are saying, the guy who
was responsible? So I checked him out and Timothy Doubt
was a detective deputy inspector and he ended up being

(04:32):
in charge of a make a Task Force which was
set up specifically to track Down the Son of Sam
or the forty four caliber killer as he was in
the beginning calls, and I thought, okay, this is interesting,
this is well worth a look at, and you know,
to get one this type of documentary made you look
at the broadcasters in your country and see who would
be interested in telling this type of the story. He's
from Kerry. The broadcaster here that would be kind of

(04:56):
you know, popular on the West coast would be the
Irish language station tg CAR. So I approached them as
straight away they were interested. They said, yeah, this is
this is a great story. We're interested. How are you
going to tell it? And what's the focus of the story.
And I said, well, the story focus is going to
be on Tim Down and that Tim obviously has passed away,
so you have to figure out how to tell that

(05:17):
story and get into it. And so then I began researching,
and obviously first port of call was to contact the
family and see if they'd be supportive, because they would be,
I mean, their blessing makes it possible, you know. So
that's how the initial interest came from that finding that
a carry man was involved in the Son of Sam case,

(05:38):
and we just went from there. I started researching, and
the more research. As I say, I knew something about
the case, but the more researched, I just thought, God,
this is just such a big story. How can I
fit it in and tell it? And also how can
you do justice to Tim Dad? And not just Tim,
but the other detectives are the detectives who works the case.
Tim was a deputy inspectors. They said he wasn't a detective,

(06:00):
but the guys who worked that case A toughcase, a
really really challenging one, and tell that story and get
across just from a police point of view, what it
was like to have a nameless killer with stranger and
stranger attacks the hardest type of thing to solve in
a city like New York. How did they do it?

(06:21):
So that's what I thought. I just thought, this is great.
This has everything. It's got drama, tension, real life consequences
and like sinister everything, textures, darkness, everything everything. I just said,
this is great. If I can get this documentary made,
I know I'm going to really enjoy it, and I
have to say I did. So that's how I came

(06:41):
about it.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Now, is this a well known case in Ireland?

Speaker 3 (06:47):
I would say no, we wouldn't have followed the way
say people in New York would or even in the
States would have been heard of over here, Yeah, people
would know Son of Sam, Oh that was a serial killer?
Would they know the details of its Look, it's forty
years ago. I would not think the name Berkowitz, for example,
might not be, you know, attached to Son of Sam. Here,

(07:09):
it wouldn't be that well known. But it's like it's
out there in popular culture. You know, if I said
to any of my friends, you know what was Son
of Sam the inside American series killer? I think it
was New York. So it's there, It's in the popular culture.
It's still alive here, and obviously it's much stronger in
New York. And when we were filming, we did some
vox pops with ordinary New Yorkers and that was fascinating

(07:33):
just how much they knew about the case and could
remember the tension in the city at the time. But
in Ireland, yeah, we would definitely know Son of Sam
was it was a New York based serial color.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, yeah, Because I'm fifty five years old and I
grew up in the Bronx, so I was right in
the middle of all this and because it was on
the local news, you know, twenty four. You know, it
was constantly and like you said too in your documentary,
it's you know, I really appreciate too how you captured
the confusion of the time period and the chaos of

(08:07):
the time period, and how the police were overwhelmed and
how they hand those press conferences every single day with
nothing to report. There was really nothing new overnight, you know,
fascinating time.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
It was, and I suppose if you look at it
in terms of the press interest, it was a huge
media story when they finally put together that there were
four or that there was one man behind these killings,
and it was you know, after the fourth attack, they
were you know, beginning to suspect that, you know, maybe
there was one person behind it, and you have to

(08:41):
think about, Look, this is back in the mid seventies.
The let the amount of technology, how connected everybody was
even having a mobile phone, all of that just wasn't,
you know, at the level that we accept and expect today.
There were in nineteen seventy six, there were over one thousand,
six hundred homicides in New York, So random and connected
killings weren't automatically kind of joined together and you have

(09:04):
to say fair play to the NYPD. After the fourth killing,
the only link was that the caliber bullet looked to
be the same a forty fourth caliber from a Charter
Ramps Bulldog Snubnoes revolver. But ballistics wasn't making a positive match.
So once they put it together and the fit on

(09:25):
the side Virginia of Oscurcian that bullet matched the first one,
So they made that link. And then as you know,
Joseph Barley, who I interviewed, who was deputy to Tim Dad, said,
you know, George Simmonson Ballistics said that if A plus
B and B equals A, then you know B equals
A equals C. That's how they joined them all together

(09:46):
and proved that like, yes, there was one guy involved
in these cases. And Joseph Birley said, you know, you
kind of like have to look at and say you
have to tell the public, like the public to be warned. Now,
it wasn't his or Tim Dad's decision as head of
the task force, but once the public, you know, are

(10:08):
the press got hold of the idea that there was
a serial killer in New York killing people randomly, and
the story just it was like putting a match to
a flame, putting a flame to a fire. It was
just wash. Like you know, the media interest just kicked
off big time, and the competition between you know, the
newspapers for that story and forgetting the audience to buy

(10:29):
more papers. It was just it fueled the fear in
the city. Like definitely, as you say, you were in
the Bronx first attackers in the Bronx, and the Bronx
and Queens were where most of the attacks happened. Though
people definitely still remember that what that was like back then,
the amount of media interest and it was continually stoking

(10:51):
it and looking for more information and constant a constant
demand for more to fill newspaper interest, they needed to
print something. There had to be an answer every day.
And as Jared Shevlin, one of the detectives said, he said,
we had nothing. We truly had nothing like he couldn't
have been darker. And yet the media are still demanding
more and more and more information. So they were having

(11:12):
to come up with you know, what are we putting
out today? And you know, timmed Out as head of
the investigation, put himself forward as being the guy who
would manage the media and keep them away from the detectives,
leave the detectives to follow up in the cases and
work the job and not be you know, swamped by
media requests. And that is you know, I suppose in

(11:32):
one to his credit and he wasn't a glory hug
or anything like that. After the case, he just stood
back from the line. Might never did bookstones anything like that.
It wasn't his style. He was interested in just getting
the case to a successful Collusions conclusion, and part of
that was managing the media so his guys could get
out there and do the day job of actually trying
to track down all the leads they were getting from

(11:53):
the phone calls. And that was all stoked up by
the media as well. I suppose it was the idea
that you could get randomly shot just because you were
going out to a pub or a disco or whatever
meant that you were looking at. Maybe it's that strange
guy down the corner. Maybe it's you know, I have

(12:14):
an ext husband who's a bit of a don't like him.
He's quirky, he'sot I spoke to George Morscadini. He's not
in the documentary, but he was a detective on the
case in the early days. His partner John O'Connell was
interviewed in the documentary and George said it was anybody
and everybody was being turned in as a potential a
potential killer, and everything had to be followed upon. It

(12:38):
also said, you know that the chief of police couldn't
get in to talk to Tim down on the phone
line because the phone lines were jammed up. They had
to put in a separate line. The phone just rang incessantly.
He said, it was just constant all day, every day.
The phone rang with tips. You know.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
It also didn't help that they had all these different
sketches and none of they were all of different people.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, well, you know the first kill, well, the first attack,
which you know resulted in a homicide, and the Donald
Laurier attack. Jody Valenti gave quite a detailed description of
the killer and there was an artist sketch produced from that.
After that, Carls and I didn't see who shot on

(13:19):
Rose Muctin and didn't that was second, the second attack.
They didn't have any witnesses from that one. But as
the cases went on, different people saw a guy in
the area. Sometimes the victims kind of half remembered, but
none of the descriptions and none of the the art
of sketches, the police sketches matched each other. You know,

(13:42):
So as the case went on, you know, like as
as I said, Jerry Shevlin, the detective, one of the detectives,
said to me, and it's in the documentary, we had nothing,
truly nothing, And he said that that, you know, none
of the sketches matched. John O'Connell said, that was one
of the big frustrat things. He said, they were just
useless and that the sketches were, you know, misleading because

(14:05):
you're looking at how many people you know, from these sketches.
How many people could they be? I don't know, like
hundreds of thousands. So that was a big frustration that
they never really had a solid line on broad type
of a person other than a very broad description white male,
maybe six foot, maybe shorter or maybe big maybe not.

(14:28):
Different descriptions gave him a slightly tin tall or smaller.
So it was a broad spectrum of some sort of
a white male twenties to maybe forties, but even at that.
And I was impressed by the detectives that I spoke
to in this case that they had such open mindedness
in how they're approaching the case. Even at that it

(14:48):
could have been anybody outside that description either. So all
avenues were left open and the sketches didn't help. They
didn't ro it down for them. That was one of
the big problems that they had.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Now, when you talk to all these different detectives, did
they have an explanation of why that all the sketches
were so different?

Speaker 3 (15:06):
And I think that John occonnell said to me, and
it's not in the documentary, but it's part of when
we were talking about it before we recorded. It was
either John or Jared Shevlin said, ask someone a week
after they see something what they saw, and particularly in
a moment when it was high drama, the description will change.

(15:27):
They start to think what they saw as opposed to
what they actually saw, and things shift in your head.
They said, it's natural and it's something that they're trying
to deal with. But when you're looking at like you're
looking for very specific But he said, it's like, you know,
was there a scar? Was there something that will make
him stand out as opposed to the broad general description.

(15:49):
But the fact I suppose that Sam crept up from
behind He shot through the passenger window. He was Normally
couples were engaged kind of you know, they were making
out or whatever it was. Carl Denaro said he was
they weren't really aware of what was outside. And you know,
when the gun gets shot at you, that's it. Your

(16:12):
your attention is heightened, and it's also your stunned. And
the attacks were all quick, they weren't slow, they weren't brazen,
except for the Virginia of Oscar chian one where he
walked straight up to her, straight on, but she died
at the scene, so there was no you know, witness
statement out of that from her. For example, she would
have had you know, she was like basically facing him

(16:33):
when he shot her. So it's understandable that they you know,
didn't get a clear view of the killer. Obviously he
was sneaking. He didn't want to be caught. And one
of the interesting things as well is and there's an
interview with tinned out and he's he's asked, you know,
why does the killer go after courting couples and is

(16:58):
that what is modusper around his lover's lanes? And Tim says,
and it shows that he was a very broad minded person.
He says, no, like it's not a lover's lane is
a place where couples get together to do what they
have always done since time immemorial, is where he puts it.
And he said, in that instance, you will have a
few people, maybe a few cars there, And that's not
what he's looking for. He's looking for a quiet place,

(17:20):
a lay by, somewhere where one car would be or
one couple or he's an opportunist. And it wasn't just
couples and cars, but the media cup sort of the media.
We're branding and labeling things to drive the story. It
was couples and cars he was going for. It was
lovers lanes and stuff. But in reality, like you know,
two women were shot on their front doorstep, Virginia was

(17:41):
shot at seven in the evening on a street, and
other ones were in cars. He was an opportunistic killer
looking for people who were vulnerable because they were on
their own. Everyone except the last attack, which you could
say that one was lover's lane. There was a couple
of other cars in the area were couples in them,
but he avoided that. And I think it's interesting that
you know, Tim was, you know, not allowing the labeling

(18:03):
or the idea of what you know. The press were
sort of saying, it's this and you know, that's what
we have. The police were like very clearly saying it's not. That.
We're looking at a much broader spectrum of locations, which
you know makes it harder for them as well, because
in New York is big enough. It would be great
if it was only lover of Lanes, but it was

(18:24):
anywhere and everywhere. And that's one of the big challenges
that this case had for them. Stranger and stranger and
wherever people were out alone. He was an opportunistic kill her.
That was the challenge they faced. And as you said,
like the sketches didn't match, and yeah, that was it.

(18:45):
That was that was the challenge. That was the big
challenge in this case.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
You interviewed Carlton Arrow you mentioned, and I've had carl
on the show I think more than once a couple
of times, and and I'm also part of that whole
Moretary Facebook group with Carl and that carl is convinced
that there were multiple there was a cult involved, and
there were multiple shooters. Now did he mention that you
off the end, I'm sure, he did sho your What

(19:13):
did Carl have to say say about that history in
regard to that.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Well, Karl said, look, there's too many things with the
case after you know, and it wasn't something he became
aware of until much later. Obviously he was following it
right from the start because you know, I mean, he
was shot in the head that survived, thank god. But
he did say, yeah that you know, it was his opinion,

(19:39):
and he firmly believes that there were other people involved. Now,
it wasn't part of my story. My story was the
police investigation, and I didn't study that and research it.
But I do know what came up during the course
of the investigation was a yellow Ooksagen popped up as
a possible car. At a few of the locations. For example,
like the first killing in the Bronx, there was reports

(20:01):
of maybe a yellow somebody sitting in a in a
yellow car was described as a yellow car, not a
yellow Volkswagen. But I think at three or four of
the other killings, people's you know, were who's in the area,
who saw cars moving whatever, yellow Oolkswagen came up, And
in the last killing in the Bronx, a yellow car
was seen Volkswagen was seen, you know, leaving the scene.

(20:21):
So the police were convinced that there was someone in
the yellow Volkswagen. Of course they catched Burkewitz. He doesn't
own the yellow Folkswagen. Who was in the yellow Oakswagen?
And Carl said, you know, as I said, I haven't
looked into this in detail. It wasn't part of the
story I was telling, which was broad enough as it was.
I mean, those killings were over, you know, thirteen months,

(20:41):
so there was a lot of detail. But there were
other aspects of the case too, which I'm not up on.
I can't talk about it with any authority. The car
was saying, there there's a lot more that links the
idea of that Burkwitz might have been attached to a
Satanic coat, for example, and there was one in the
area where he was living. And yeah, it's possible. I mean,

(21:07):
and I can't say with any authority that I think
it's credible or not, but I know Carl does, and
he's done a lot more research. And as I said,
he knew Terry Murray, He's looked at all of that information.
And you know, he said to me, Terry Nailsen in
his books, you know he gets it right and he
believes that it's there and it's a possibility.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, you're talking about the book The Ultimate Evil by
Maury Terry, which really is thoroughly researched, and you know
it was in real time. A lot of the stuff
that came out during that book was coming out in
real time, deaths of witnesses and stuff. And we're here
with a Neil Boyle. The film we're talking about is
Son of Kerry, Son of Sam. You can get in

(21:48):
contact with Neil from his website I wormedia dot com.
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I'm your host, private investigator at Opperman. We're here with

(26:19):
the directed producer Neil Boyle just came out with a film,
Son of Carry's Son of Sam, and it aired over
there in Ireland and you can catch it. I'm gonna
have a link in the description on speaker and iHeart
and YouTube and all that kind of stuff where you
can click on a link and you can watch for
the next twenty days or so. A Son of Carry's
Son of Sam And if you really want to be

(26:39):
taken back to the feel of the seventies, there's a
lot of archival news footage that I've never seen before
as a matter of fact, in this film. But again, Neil,
when you talk to these detectives like Barelli and these guys,
did any of them bring up this idea that there
were more people involved or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
No, they didn't, And I did ask. I asked Joseph Browley.
I said, what do you think of that? And he said, look,
And this was afterwards when we were shooting the Breeze,
because I said that the documentary was about the investigation
and the challenges they faced. It wasn't. Once they caught
Burke withit. My sorry ended, but you know, their thinking

(27:22):
was that all of the killings were a forty four
caliber revolver. They got the gun. Burkewit's had a letter
ballistics matched the gun to Berkewitz's gun handwriting expert I
can't remember his name, matched the handwriting. They did a
photo spread and sent it up to Jody Valenti in

(27:43):
the Bronx. She said, if she ever saw the guy
who shot at her, and this was the very first killing,
if she ever thought him that she would be able
to identify him. So when they sent that up, she
immediately said, yeah, that's the guy. And that was kind
of slam dunk from their point of view. And I
suppose if you look at it from another perspective, there

(28:05):
were never any other son of Sam attacks or anything
like it in the you know, months afterwards, like nobody
took up the mantle and continued the killings. So did
they catch the shooter? They would say, yeah, one hundred
percent positives They had the guy. Plus he confessed, you know,

(28:26):
David Burkwitz. The minute they stopped them, John Fladiko said
identify yourself, who are you? And Jerry Shevlin says Saladiko
was taken aback because Burkewood didn't say, my name is
David Burkewoods. He said, I'm son of Sam. And as
Jerry Shelven said, Shelvin said, that's the quickest confession you

(28:48):
could ever have. Now, they still had to make the
case sick to be sure that they'd get a solid conviction.
They hadn't at that stage run the ballistics, have done
the photo spread. But straight off the bat that was
he wasn't David Burkwood's. He was son of Sam. And
you know, from their point view, you have to say it, Yes,
did they catch the guy who did those killings?

Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (29:08):
They did. Was there other people involved that there was
nothing to indicate to them? I would think Now, actually
I'm sort of saying that they didn't say that to me.
But the killings ended, they had the guy. He confessed.
I think they were happy that they had stopped the killings.
And the proof of that is that they didn't continue,
I suppose. So I would say that they were, they

(29:31):
had They're happy that they got the job they set
out to do. They got it done.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
So none of the other detectives that brought up the
idea that that they felt as strongly as carled and arrowfields,
And no they didn't.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
And in fairness, if I was telling that story, I
would have pushed a lot. I would have interviewed them
on those points, and I would have studied they stuffed
the Carls and our own time Murray had put together.
But as I said, that wasn't the story. And I
know it'd be great to hear that it was still
alive and there was you know, detectives thought there was,
but none of them did know. And they were happy

(30:06):
that they got their guy, like they really were. And
I know Tim daud was too, as Tim Dad's son Chuck,
who was in the NYPD himself, he actually rose to
a higher rank than Tim did. And he said they
had the guy, they had the gun, they had a letter.
He said they were sure they had the right guy.
It was job done and you know, the main name,

(30:27):
and you know Tim Dadd's daughter Melia said as well,
it was They just wanted to stop the killing. That
was what they wanted. And I think once they had
him and they had the gun and they'd made all
those ballistic matches, he'd confessed. The confession you know, was
on record. He never said he didn't do it.

Speaker 6 (30:46):
And.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
That was it. It was, you know, point of view,
because they caught the guy.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
So the focus of your film is from the perspective
of Tim Dowd. It's it's based on Tim Down because
he was from Ireland as connection there now, But did
he did Tim Down do anything else in his career
to this. Normally, when you got these guys in these
high profile cases, they kind of insert themselves into other
high profile cases. But that's not the case with Tim
Dad is.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
It Well depends on what you call a high profile case.
I mean, son of Sam was at the end of
his career. He retired shortly afterwards with the double promotion
for you know, successfully leading that case to a close.
Tim had been involved in a case with a drug
dealing case in Chinatown which many people saw of being

(31:34):
impossible to solve, and he did, after months of investigation,
managed to you know, cleared, you know, arrest the head
of this organized criminal guy called the Flying Dragons, and
people felt that, you know, that was an amazing feat

(31:55):
because we, like Westerners, trying to infilicate trade a Chinese
criminal organization was felt to be something that was just
not going to be possible for someone to do, you know,
but he managed to do it and arrested the leader
on the charge of murder for murdering a rival gang members,

(32:16):
you know, lead They were called the Ghost Shadows, and
David Wall was a victim and that effectively ended that
gang's activity in Chinatown. And that was seen as quite
a big case. And I don't know if that was
somebody said he was connected to the French connection and
drug gering. I didn't know whether they fined dragons were
receiving drugs through that trade route or not. But and

(32:39):
that was like did he have other huge, high profile cases. No,
And I suppose you have to say or not to
my knowledge, but how did he get involved in Sun
of Sam anyway? Because that was a big case. And
I think it was because he you know, you have
to remember Doud came into the police force in nineteen
forty and that was during the depression, and three thousand

(33:02):
people applied for three hundred places, so only the kremlin
of coempt the very best got in. And Joseph BURRELLI
you know, and I was talking to him, he said,
you know, he came in in that like nineteen forty
forties class. The class of nineteen forty was known as like,
you know, exceptionally talented people. So he was part of
that group, working their way up through it through the
ranks and having you know, careers that put them on

(33:25):
tough cases, you know, and Tim ended up on the
Summer sam case because the first killing was in the
Bronx and the next three were in Queen's And it
was after the fourth killing that Captain BURRELLI was the
captain in the I think it was the ninth homicide,
and he had the homicide squads under him, and George

(33:47):
Simmons and ballistics had passingly made a remark to I
think it was Joe Coffy was dealing with them on
one of the killing was probably the don At Demassi
Johann Limeo attack, which was the third one, and Simon said,
you know, I've seen this caliber, this style of you

(34:07):
know attack in another case up in the Bronx, and
Coffee said it to Brelli, and Brelly said, right, let's
put a call out everywhere, see if anybody has anything
that matches this, and they brought together the first four
killings that Diesel seemed to match the pattern, and that's
when they first had the inkling that you know, that

(34:29):
they were all connected. So the problem was that the
first killing was in the Bronx, the next three were
in Queens and the Bronx and the Queens both wanted
to be the lead in the case. They didn't at
that stage have a system to coordinate over the two Burrows.
There was a little bit of a rift developing there,

(34:52):
and Joseph Burley said, like, the solution was to bring
in an outsider. So, you know, Tim Daud was chosen
as the outsider of someone who was impartial, wouldn't be
either Queens or the Bronx, and that would keep everybody happy.
And as it happens, Tim came in and John O'Connell,
one of the detectives I interviewed, said, you know, Tim said, okay,

(35:12):
come with me. They were looking for somewhere to base
Omega because Omega wasn't particularly Queens or Bronx, it was both.
It was all of New York. It was I think
probably one of the first completely all of New York
task forces, and it was going to turn into the
biggest man hunts that New York had ever had. But
he went to the one on nine and there was

(35:34):
a room upstairs which just had a clerk in it,
and John said he walked in, Tim had a look,
said yeah, this will do. And he said, dude, pack
your stuff and get out that was it. The task
force had arrived, so it was based in the One
A Night on the first floor and that's where they
operated out of him. That's how Tim got involved. But
he was known as being meticulous, as being a detailed guy,

(35:56):
as being someone who was from as I said, that
great class of nineteen forty and I think, you know,
you don't get handed a case like a serial killer
if you're not capable of leading a team. So all
of that stands to him. Did he have stellar career
before that? He had cases that he had successfully brought

(36:17):
to a clothes that were very difficult, like that Chinatown
went with the Flying Dragons. So you know, he wasn't
a limelight hogger either. So you know, as people have said,
and I've done a lot of research on him, and
it's come up in a couple of books that Tim
dad and a story has never been done that we
don't really know much about him, and he was offered

(36:39):
book deals after the case, his family said, And you
know there were films made about Sana Sam. He you know,
he didn't act as an advisor on them or anything
like that. He wasn't looking for it. He was just
a cops cop that was like touch the guy, get
the case to a successful conclusion, move on. Very detailed orientated,
as I said, very pragmatic, and that's I think, you know,

(37:01):
you need that sort of a person when you're handling
a case is going to be that broad with that
many moving parts. And then by that I mean the
amounted detectives, the scale of it, and I think the
type of mind that you have to bring back in
the seventies when there wasn't as I say, computer internet,
even mobile phones, the type of mind that you have

(37:22):
to bring to catching someone in that old style way
that detectives worked. And I have to say speaking to
the other detectives and you know, very impressed with their
attitude towards how you catch, how you catch someone, how
they dealt with that case. And I know they all
worked horrendous hours. Everybody wanted this to end. But the

(37:46):
level of detail that they would go to, and you
know how diligent they were in looking at everything. Jared
Shevlin said, like they had a psychologist on the case,
Harvey Schlosberg, and I spoke to Harvey on the phone,
but Jerry Chavlin said to me, you know, you don't
make an arrest on a profile, and he said, I'm
not saying the profile isn't right, but it's not right either.

(38:11):
So the profile says the guy, he's a young guy,
he's in his thirties, he's a loaner, he doesn't mix well,
he keeps to himself. That's three hundred thousand people in
the city. That's no use to me. So they were
the challenges they were looking at, and those detectives they
were very they're very straight about that. And you just
know these guys are serious men. You know, they're they're

(38:31):
good at their job. They're they're also well used to
this type of work and doubt as well. When he
was getting that task force, he was told he had
the pick of whoever he wanted, so he pulled together
the best people. Now O'Connell and Shevlin were already part
of the task force. BURRELLI had set up a small
unit dedicated to those first four five homicides and before

(38:52):
Omega was announced and tim Dad was brought in. But
he had the pick of the best to bring in
and put on to work. You So, yeah, they were
and their their memories and the recollections forty years later,
the details of the case of how they tracked it
down of each of the crime scenes of what they
came across was really impressive. You know.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's when you think back to the seventies, the crime
scene investigation was so different. I don't even think they
had crime scene tape, you know. I think they would
just walk in and out of the crime scene just
and different detexts would just handle all the evidence and stuff.

Speaker 6 (39:29):
Just.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Even crime evidence bags and anything had evidence bags back
in those days, like when they showed up at a
crime scene. Was just totally totally different.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, it was a different well, you know, today you'd
say you don't want to damage any of the forensics.
Back forensics weren't as developed as they are today. So
you know, as John occonnell says, no DNA, you know,
and it wasn't the technology that that could you know,
deliver a result back then. So you know, George Chadlin
said when he arrived at the pun homicide, Robert Bolanti

(40:02):
was already gone in the ambulance. He survived. They see
Muscots was still in the car. She died at the scene,
and he said, until the coroner releases the coroner has
to come and release the crime scene, so he's to
pronounce the person dead. Say, now you can get at
the crime scene. So there is as Jared's said, there was,

(40:24):
there is a routine when you get to a crime scene.
There are things you have to do in the right order.
But the order of what they did back then and
how they handle the crime scene is different to how
you would do it today. And that's you know, a
lot of it is because of how technology and forensic
science has moved on and the type of tools you
can bring to bear. I mean, look at it this way.

(40:45):
After the first letter, it was the first letter, knows
it was the Bresen letter, the second letter. After the
second letter, they had a partial, two partial fingerprints, and
a partial PAM. If that was today and that person
within the database, you'd have an arrest that day. But

(41:06):
back then, Jerry Chavin very straight about it. He said
you had to have the warm body besides you to
make a match. He said, you could have you could
type that fingerprint in all day into the system. You
just it would not match up. It just wasn't The
technology wasn't there, So you know, I mean, you're down
to comparing partial tips with paper files of fingerprints with

(41:26):
magnifying glasses. That's the reality of what it was back then.
So they there were handicaps, but they're only handicaps if
you you know, know in the future of what's going
to make things easy for you. I mean, you know,
the type of technology that's in New York today, particularly
post nine to one one is you know, astanding, like gunshots,

(41:48):
sensors and everything. The minute of the gunshots heard, Like
we had to have MYPD on location when we were
filming the reconstructions. Now we weren't we were using a gun,
but we weren't firing blanks. But if we were firing blanks,
it would have triggered the response that there's a gunshot
in an area, and the NYPD would have known within
minutes and there would have been Carl's dispatched, you know,

(42:09):
ready for you know, right eotantually a deadly situation. But
you know that's that's how extreme the difference is. But
you know, I suppose today we're saying these are the
things we're looking at. In forty years time, we'll be
looking back saying, God, forensic scigns, it had really come on.
But imagine if they had today, they were so handicapped.
Today we think, great, we've got all these great tools.

(42:31):
Back then, they had diligence and they had really smart coups.
Not saying we own today, but back then they did
work in a very methodical way. And you spoke to
Carl Denaro. You know, Carl was the second attack. At
the time, it wasn't known that they was part of
a serial killing. And they assumed, or one of the

(42:52):
theories was that Carl was a drug dealer, because you know,
he'd long hair and he did smoke a bit of pot.
But like he was twenty, who didn't you know, So
that was one of the theories. But at the same time,
even though that was a theory, they also came up
with a list of everybody in his circle, everybody in
the area who'd ever had any kind of a prior
or they'd ever come across. And they came to him

(43:13):
and they said, do you know any these people, any
of them have a grudge against you? Like they weren't
just saying this is our theory, this is the single
thing we're pinning it on. They were I think diligent
cops and detectives who were saying, okay, this is a
theory we have within the case of cars Naro, possible
drug link, but what are the other options? And they

(43:34):
were pulling up all these names. They were looking at everything,
and that was the style of police for back then.
In the Donald Laurier Jody Valenti attack, which was the
first one in the Bronx, one of the theories was
that it could be mob related because my bacteria activity
had increased in the area. And you know that that

(43:59):
was how they were looking at these things. Where was
the motive? What was the motive? And the funny thing
to the whole case, there was never a motive like
there just wasn't. It was random. It was random killing.
Once they knew it was a serial killer, all of
those series went away. But the police were looking at everything,
and when they knew it was a random killer, it
was a single guy traveling around with a forty four

(44:19):
caliber bulldog gun. They continued to look at all options
and everything. So every tip that came in, and this
was one of the problems with how public this case became.
Every tip that came in had to be followed up
on and in the old way, and if you think
about it, you want to know, like who lives in
a house these days, a couple of seconds on your
iPhone will get you the answer back then paper records.

(44:40):
You know, that was the reality of, you know, how
much time had to be given to every single lead,
and every lead had to be followed up. Joseph Barelli
said that Tim and him came up with a method
of investigation that they called the three eye method of investigation.
He said, we gave it a fancy name because it
sounded and it's exactly the sort of thing that Timothy

(45:02):
Dowd would have, you know, come up with, which was
when the leads came in, they would say what's immediate,
like should be given to a detective as soon as
they come in. What's important, which is, get the immediate
stuff out of the way, get onto the important ones.
Clear all of those Do those detectives of ground and
follow down those people, find out where they were when

(45:23):
the shootings happened, See if they sit the profile, all
that kind of stuff. Just they were the hot leads,
and then the third was ignored. The third pile was ignore,
And Joseph Braley said, like, and which did me and
Tim looked at We looked at ignore. Well, the cops
were out doing the good leads. They were looking at
those things, and the idea that was that Tim said, like,

(45:45):
nothing can slip through everything is in unless we fully
disqualified it. And his own son, Chuck said, you know,
his attitude was, you know, when the killing happens, everybody
in that area is to suspect everybody. And if you
had the name of everybody in that area, then you
have the name of the killer. So all you have

(46:05):
to do is work your way through those names, cancel
off each one as you go, until eventually you get
to the killer. Now, this is New York. What was
the population back then? Was the fifteen million? Probably? I
don't know, but it's you know, that was a hell
of a job to be faced with, you.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Know, yeah, especially if to be doing it by hand
where you can't scrub it with these computer databases like
you have. Now, let's take it on the commercial break
with Neil Boyle, the director and producer of Son of Kerry,
Son of Sam. You can get ahold of this through
his website iwormedia dot com. But also too, there's gonna
be a link in our description and you can get
a competist. And I really do encourage people to go back.

(46:48):
Even you put on the subtitles because there's something they
talk in Irish sometimes you can't understand, but just to
get a flavor back of New York City back in
the seventies. Is a lot of archival footage and now
a word from our.

Speaker 5 (47:03):
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(50:38):
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Investigates on YouTube. Okay, welcome back to the Operaman Report.

(51:26):
I'm your host, private investigator at Operman and we're here
with the Neil Boyle who's the producer director of Son
of Kerry's Son of Sam. You can find it at
to contact them through iwrmedia dot Com. Another thing too,
I enjoyed about the film is, and I think it's
so important when you look back at that time, is
the blackout and the riots that took place, especially in
the Bronx at the time, because and there is such

(51:49):
a connection between that and the Son of Sam. Now,
but how would you know that from Ireland? Did the
cops bring that up and say, hey boy, then we
had this riot? And is that all that came about?

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Funny? I asked about the riot and when I was
researching it, you know, you know, the riots were mentioned,
and you know, I liked the Spike Lee film was
what was his called Summer of Sam. Yeah, but the
idea of that summer was a baking hot summer, you know,
and it was like a tinderbox. And those riots it

(52:23):
seemed like and I know, look, the city gets hot,
you know, tensions get a little afraid and all that,
and then there's a blackout and you know, looting and
riots start and all that. I was curious to know
did they you know, did that put more pressure on them?
I mean they were already stretched that that investigation had

(52:44):
gone up to three hundred detectives and how many other
people like you know working the case as well from
you know, ordinary police. And then suddenly, you know, you
have riots and you know, the Bronx on fire and
stuff like that. And I said, like, you know, was
that did that put more pressure on you? Did it
like really interfere with the investigation? Did you worry that

(53:06):
you would miss another killing during that? And they kind
of said, no, it didn't. They didn't think of it
in that kind of way. They didn't. That was I mean,
obviously it wasn't a Son of Sam related event, but
it was something that they had to deal with at
the time. So while it's part of the texture and
the color color of that year and it was one

(53:28):
of the bigger events to hit the media, what it
did do was put more pressure on the mayor, Mayor
Beam and the police department to do their jobs right
and to you know, get control of a tough situation.
And Son of Sam was in that mix. And there's
a great conference with Mayor Beam and he's angry and

(53:50):
he says, I'm damned angry, you know, And it's not
really funny because you know, they were, you know, dealing
with Iran. It's like another attack from the forty four
caliber killer, which is a label that the press had
put on some as sim in the early days before
he wrote his first letter looting. And in that footage

(54:10):
that you saw of that of the riots that I
got the cups and they have it in the opening,
they're like, you know, they were shots fired, and the
presenter goes on that you can't hear because of the voice.
Everybody says like, you know where the shots fired at
you and is yeah, you know, shots fire the police.
So they were, you know, under severe pressure, and for

(54:31):
someone like the mayor and you know police commissioner, the
real pressure with them would have been to you know,
assure the people of New York that they, you know,
were capable to do their job, that they were able
to keep the city safe. So, you know, Sounasan was
in that mix as part of one of the big
challenges that they were facing. And like an impossible one
stranger around stranger, a random killer in a city the

(54:52):
size of New York. And I didn't appreciate how big
New York was because anytime I've been there in the
past that they had primarily been in Manhattan. But on
this one we stayed in the Bronx and we drove,
you know, all over out to Long Island to where
some of the like you know, Joseph Brilliant Times Justice
live out in Long Island. And we were up and

(55:14):
Tim's family still love live up in the in Yonkers
in that area. But the scale and traveling around Queens
through the different crime scenes, it was how you could
face the task of catching someone with that broad of
spread is unreal. So, yeah, the riots and the looting

(55:36):
and you know, that blackout was just another pile of
pressure heaped onto you know, and it would have filtered
down to Tim. Tim as the person as the leader
of that investigation. It's like anything. The book stopped somewhere
and you know, the chief of police and the police
commissioner and you know would have been you know, constantly
on Tim saying where are we, how are we doing?

(55:56):
Where are we going? So he would have shielded the
tea from that sort of political pressure. And I asked,
anybody who spoke to was Tim dad under pressure? Is
that we never knew? It never filtered down to us.
He always kept that to himself. But you can imagine
it must have been immense. It must have been really
really big. You know.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Oh yeah, Neil, we're out of time. What do you
want to leave us with? You only got a couple
of minutes left?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
All right? Well where the want to leave it? Look,
I think you know, timmed out with an Irish American
and he came and he served the police in the
city that adopted and took him in. And his role
really in his career, and it was the son of
Sam case, was to make the city safe. He wasn't

(56:44):
a glory hunter, he wasn't looking for praise or anything
like that. He was just confident and extremely bright, meticulous.
And I think that sort of the influence of the
Irish in America and how they've served in America is
what I think this document is really about. And I
think Tim is an exempt for example of the best
of you know, what Irish Americans have to offer American society.

(57:08):
Then I'm still today, you know, So I'd like to
leave it as I'd also like to say, Look, everybody
who was on the team, Joseph Brelli in the early
days before Tim was involved, had pieces together. Jerry John O'Connell,
who I interviewed, everybody had talked to, but particularly Jarge Shevlin,
who passed away two months ago. Just to say a
huge thanks to all those guys for talking to me,

(57:30):
and I hope they're happy that this documentary has reflected
the huge challenge they have and the success they had
in solving the case.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Neil Boyle, son of Kerry, son of Sam, thank you
so much.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Thanks Ed, good night.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Okay, well they had Neil Boyle, son of Cary Sun Sam.
I'm going to do something different after this show. I'm
going to do a little commentary that'll be up in
the members section, and I'm going to start doing this
with pretty much all my interviews after this, because I
got a ton of notes here, different things I wanted
to ask and talk about that they didn't get a
chance to get in. So that'll be like new feature
we'll have here. Then when I do these interviews, we'll
have a commentary like a half hour that'll be up

(58:05):
in a member section that you can either purchase or
join and become a member, which we really need members,
by the way, right now with the in fact, we
have no funds to continue for next month right now.
That's to where we are right now, and I started
early this month. I started way before the fifteenth try
and you trying to explain to the audience. So we
need funding to keep the show going. And the way
to fund the show is to become a member. You

(58:25):
send me to contact me at Opperman Report at gmail
dot com. I'll give you thirteen months membership for sixty bucks.
If you're already a member, will add the thirteen months
to your existing membership. You don't lose any time. If
we don't get the memberships, I can't continue doing it.
So it's just as simple as that. We just sent
that an email last night and all like it says
a bunch of you know, the only people that comment

(58:45):
back with people insulting me, you know, for begging for money.
But I'm doing the show for free. I'm doing I'm
paying for the show to put the show on for you.
So I'm asking for support here, guys. Either we don't
get to support, the show's over nothing we can do,
so contact me at opperman Report dot com. You can
become a member there or if you want a big discount,
Oppermanreport at gmail dot com. And I'm gonna be doing

(59:06):
something different like I said. Also too, if you want
to advertise on a show, we got great advertising rates
for you. It looks like I'm going to be losing
our TA sponsor. So if you want to buy some tea,
do it right away and get the Tea dot com
and tell him you know you you purchased it because
I heard it on the Opera Report. That would help out.
But Tim Dawd, the story of Tim Dowd, who's little
known NYPD detective Neil Boyle, son of son of Kerry,

(59:29):
son of Sam, and I really do recommend his documentary.
Even though it doesn't get into this stuff we normally
get into the Son of Sam, it really does pick
up the flavor of the archival footage, like seeing the
old pictures of Jimmy Breslin when he had a little
laugh row going on. That's it's worth it for that alone,
said check out Neil Boyle, son of Kerry, son of Sam.
And there's going to be a link in the description.

(59:51):
So once again too join a member section. Email me
at Operamanreport at gmail dot com. I'll hook you right
up with a membership. Good night,