November 15, 2025 • 55 mins
Born in the gritty Navy town of Bremerton, Washington and raised in the south Seattle suburbs, John Michael Greer began writing about as soon as he could hold a pencil. SF editor George Scithers' dictum that all would-be writers have a million words of so of bad prose in them, and have to write it out, pretty much sums up the couple of decades between his first serious attempt to write a book and his first published book, Paths of Wisdom, which appeared in 1996. These days he lives in Cumberland, MD with his spouse Sara; serve as presiding officer -- Grand Archdruid is the official title -- of the Ancient Order of Druids in America (AODA), a Druid order founded in 1912; and writes in half a dozen nonfiction fields, nearly all of them focused on the revival of forgotten ideas, insights, and traditions of practice from the rubbish heap of history. - www.redroom.com/author/john-michael-greer
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All Henry, Welcome to the ex Zone.
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We're fact is fiction and fiction is reality. Now here's
your host, Rob vicconnell.
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I like treating.
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God, streaming convey you man. I like dreaming, closing my eyes.
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And feeling fine when let's go down. I'm holding you
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Gotcha mon.
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And it's charade to.
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The morning life.
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I see us saw on the shore.
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And welcome back to the xCE on every one. My
name is Rob McConnell, coming to from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
On the All New Xzone Broadcast Network and the Talk
Star Radio Network. My email address is Xzone at Xzonradio
TV dot com, on MSN messenger, x Zone Radio TV
at hotmail dot com, at our website www dot Xzonradio
(04:22):
tv dot com. My guest this hour is a good
friend of the x Zone. John Michael Greer is his name,
and John Michael Greer has been a student of monster,
lure and the occult since nineteen seventy five. He is
also the author of several books, including Naturalmagic, Potions and
(04:43):
Powers from the Magical Garden, Circles of Power, Ritual Magic
in the Western Tradition, and Inside a Magical Lodge. He
has written articles for Renaissance Magazine, Golden Down Journal, Meslim,
New Moon, Rising, Nassis, and Alexandria. As student and practitioner
(05:03):
of geomancy and sacred geometry for more than twenty years,
fluent in Latin and Medieval French for the past five years,
and a certified Tarot grand Master, John Michael Greer has
studied a geomatic text from the Middle Ages and Renaissance,
learning and testing out the techniques that were used when
(05:24):
geomanc was at its height. John Michael Greer is an
active member of five Fraternal and two Magical Lodges, and
he's joining us tonight to talk about his one of
his new books. This man writes more books than anyone
I know. The name of the book that we're going
to be talking about in the first part of the
show is the UFO phenomenon, Fact, Fantasy and Disinformation and
(05:47):
John Michael Greer, Welcome back to the X Zone. How
are you, John?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doing very well with a pleasure beyond again.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
It's great having you with us. John. Your new book
is about UFOs and the subtitle is Fact, Fantasy and Disinformation.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
HM.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Three very interesting aspects of eupology.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yes, oh yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Here we are. The thing is go go ahead, go ahead, sir.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
There's one of the problems with the whole UFO phenomenon
is that partly it isn't just one phenomenon. That's I
think the thing that has caused more confusion than anything
else is the fact that people have been trying to
get all of these extremely diverse experiences under a single head.
And there are some things going on that are unquestionably factual.
There are some things going on that are pretty clearly fantasy,
(06:37):
and there are some things going on that involve the
deliberate manipulation of information. Disinformation is the phrases.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I came up with a theory several months ago where
if there is a UFO conspiracy, it's not the government
that is maintaining it or perpetrating it, it's actually members
of the UFO community. Because as long as they are
pointing the finger in saying that there is a government conspiracy,
they do not have to produce any evidence to the
(07:06):
actual existence of UFOs because anything that they would want
to show has already been confiscated and taken by the
government in their so called conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
That's funny. So in other words, yeah, the government conspiracy
is so good that that's why we don't have any evidence.
It's all their fault.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, that's what the UFO community is saying.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It's like the people out there who insist that, oh, say,
the Freemasons or somebody around the world, and the fact
that there's no evidence for this just proves how clever.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
They are, exactly exactly, Well, I think one of.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
The things that has to be understood in dealing with
the UFOs and with that whole phenomenon and many other
phenomena is that there's not just one room of people
who are trying to manipulate the information.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
And you see, that's where the big surprise comes. Because
when it comes to the manipulation of information, according to
what uphologists and researchers would like us to believe, the
manipulation comes from the government.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Well, I would start by seeing which government, because not
all governments have the same agenda in this situation. It's
been tolerably well documented, for example, that the Soviet Union,
back when there was a Soviet Union, used quote UFO
sightings unquote as a cover for some of the aerospace TSK.
One of the things I suggested in my book is
that they basically caught that looks in the United States government,
(08:34):
which has been doing the same thing for a long time,
and that other countries around the world have used, Oh
it must be a UFOs as a very convenient cover
for having airplanes or other technologies someplace where they weren't
supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
John, stand by you and I have to take our
first break. John Michael Greer is our special guest. Here's
the website ex Oanation www dot zoom dot com. Forward
Slash author forward Slash John Dash Michael Dash Greer. We'll
be back on the other side of this break. Don't
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dot Future of God, Amen dot com. Whether you're a
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Exone TV show coming soon to screens of all sizes.
On the x Zone TV Show, we'll investigate UFOs, ghosts,
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unsolved mysteries, and all subject matter from within the world
of the paranormal and the science of parapsychology, and much
(12:29):
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Speaker 8 (13:00):
Start have a music and free whenever it starts, and
it's magic. If the music is moving, it makes you
feel happy, like an old time moveing.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
I'll tell you about the magic and a free on
soul and it's like Plana calls.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Danger balla rocking off Phonemagine, don't father and choose if
it's John fans music odom and Mother's just going listen
little sound a smile, the don't climb on your face
no matter how on your track we start tapping in.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
You can't see the fire.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
The ample, so your life. John Michael Greer is my
special guest at this hour. Www dot Redroom dot com.
Forward Slash author Forward Slash, John Hyphen, Michael Hyphen, and
(14:00):
Greer Mike John. We're more than sixty years into the
UFO era and a fair sized library of books have
been written about the phenomenon. Is there anything new to
say about it?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Or is it a go ahead now?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Or is it the same old, same old being hashed
over again.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, we've been hearing the same old, same old, same
old for about sixty years now. That doesn't mean there's
nothing that's left to say. It means that the entire
debate has become mired in a couple of completely unproductive assumptions.
Talk to almost anybody in the UFO community or these
days outside of it, and you'll find one of two opinions.
Either UFOs or space or nuts and bold spaceships from
(14:43):
some alien civilization, or they are entirely hoaxes, misidentifications and delusions.
Those are the only two hypotheses people are willing to
talk about, and there's an assumption that if one is false,
the other must be true. This is hardly logical, it's not.
I mean, the fact is that unidentified things seen in
(15:05):
the sky, which is what UFO means. After all, it
doesn't mean alien spacecraft. Unidentified things seen in the sky
can have many different origins, and we need to get
past those assumptions and actually start talking about what do
people actually see, what is influencing what they see, and
what might be behind it.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
What does the history of the phenomenon have to do
with figuring out what's really out there or up there?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, the history is crucial because, I mean, if you
are a scientist actually researching a phenomenon, instead of either
trying to debunk it or trying to insist on some
preconceived notion, you start by figuring out what is the phenomenon,
how does it change over time? And the thing that
you're going to find out if you track the UFO
phenomenon over time is that it changes in lockstep with
(15:51):
popular culture, and popular culture changes first across the board.
You see something in the UFO world out of popular
that you know, if you see something showing up in
the sky people report in UFOs, look back a few
years or even a couple of decades, and you'll find
that it was in popular culture. First. This doesn't offer
(16:14):
any support to the claim that these are aliens from space.
It does suggest there are some very complex feedback loops
going on.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And you know, we've seen this over the years. Where
a movie comes out, people go to see it. It
have less whether it's et close encounters of the third kind,
independence day after the movie, incidents rise and then they fall.
You know, it's a peak, but up and down goodbye.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Well, it's also the case that the type of incidents
that are reported are directly influenced by movies and other
media phenomenon in advance. For example, the flying sauce or
the disc shaped spacecraft buzzing through the sky that was
actually invented by science fiction magazine cover artists, the first
one that I've been able to track with in nineteen seventeen,
and only after they had saturated the magazine covers through
(17:04):
the era of the pulps in the thirties and forties,
especially on the pages of Amazing Science Fiction Ray Polmer's
extremely famous lowbrow science fiction rank. Do people start seeing
them in the sky in the same way abductions became
an issue after abduction started showing up in popular culture
in the form of books and movies.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
So how do we go through the people who are
making the claims of these sightings to those who have
actually had a citing of something that they cannot understand
within the realm of reality. To those who are just
profiting from the phenomenon, it's a challenge.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's a real challenge. One of the things that basically
needs to happen is to take a step back from
the individual cases, because especially the famous cases. These days,
you get a situation like Rosswell, you get the Benny
Barney Hill, the Betty and Barney Hill case, you get
you know, any of a dozen others that have become
the big cases. And at this point they are so
(18:10):
surrounded by layers of mythology, both pro alien and pro
debunker mythology, but it's almost impossible to figure out what
actually goes on. Look at the phenomenon over a broad
over a broader spectrum, say what changes are happening to
it in the forties and the fifties and the sixties
and the seventies, how does it change and what else
(18:31):
tracks those thing changes. Then you start getting a hint
of what's under, what's behind the whole thing, of the
very complex causes of this extremely complex phenomena.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
All right, when we look at the Betty and Barney
Hill case, we look at Roswell and let's just concentrate
on Roswell for a second. All these years afterwards, there's
a lot of hype, there's a lot of speculation, there's
a lot of he said, she said, he's saw they
saw in this entire scenario, and to coin the phrase
(19:05):
from the Little Wendy's Lady that where's the beef? There
is no proof, there is no evidence. And what would
have happened to the Roswell case if Stanton Friedman had
not written his book?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, well you have Stanton Friedman's book. You go back
before you get the one that Charles Berlitz did with
the other two researchers that really put it back on
the map. And the fascinating thing about that book is
that it actually lifted most of it, or many of
its details from an earlier book about a completely faked
UFO crash at Aztec One that was just invented by
(19:38):
her by a couple of con artists who sold the
story to Frank Scully. And so you get this situation.
Here's another place where history matters look at the details
and say where have I seen that before? And in
many cases, again you could trace it to popular culture.
You can trace it to themes moving through the UFO
community as they're elaborated in more and more versions. So
(19:59):
you could just kind of I get back and say,
what was actually going on in the summer of nineteen
forty seven, And that actually becomes a very interesting question
because you notice, among other things, that the kind of
UFOs that were being seen in nineteen forty seven are
not being seen today. The things that people reported and
(20:21):
photographed during the big UFO flap in the summer of
forty seven in late Juring early July nineteen forty seven
were silver, round or spherical objects at high altitude. That's
what they saw.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So how come that change?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, so there were sp We had these spherical daylight
objects which were seen quite frequently during that flap, and
a couple of others. Later after the mid nineteen fifties,
the phenomenon changed to bright lights at high altitude. Primarily
that was the thing. There are some other things that
were also experiencing. That becomes a complex matter of course.
We're I think everyone is now aware of the black
(21:03):
triangles which showed up in the very early nineteen eighties
and became a big deal for a while. Now ask
yourself this, who was doing something with spherical silver object
in the nineteen forties, lights at high altitude in the
nineteen fifties and sixties, Black triangles in.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The nineteen eighties, the US government, the.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
US Air Force, we're talking about a history of American
aerial espionage. In the nineteen forties and early nineteen fifties,
the hot technology for aerial espionage was held to balloons.
Nineteen fifty four saw the U two enter service. In
the early nineteen sixties you had the SR seventy one,
both of which you see anomal of life moving like
(21:45):
stars against the background at very high altitude at Donner
Dusk nineteen eighty. The hottest thing and the most secret
thing in the US military cupboard was the stealth the
first stealth planes.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
And I remember, I remember John, there were people who
would rent vans and dampler radar units in droves and
head up to the hills the surrounding area of fifty
one and see these lights in the sky and had
no idea why they were not getting a radar return.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
But there you go, because in fact that's where that's
where the stealth productype have Blue was being tested. That's
all the places. Yeah, and so and in fact, one
of the things that is most interesting to me about
the whole UFO phenomenon is that, except for the fact
that they got the one central thing wrong, many of
(22:34):
the UFO believers are right about a lot of things.
Are they right that there's something really really funny associated
with the UFOs going on at Area fifty one, Absolutely,
that's where America's spyplane fleet was based for me decades.
Are they right that the government's hiding something? Of course,
they're right, it's just that it's not spacecraft from another civilization,
(22:55):
it's you know, fairly well documented area lesbian our technologies.
Are they right that the government has been turning out disinformation? Absolutely.
What I don't think they've grasped is that the whole
story that these things are aliens from space is part
of the disinformation.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
And they're not grasping the fact that this is all
being done in a matter of national security.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's yeah, and totally well documented stuff. You can go
back and get a lot of information on the old
spy balloon tests of the forties and fifties. I mean,
the United States flew barrages of spy balloons over the
Soviet Union from one end to the other. The Russians.
Krushiav displayed one of them at a big international conference
(23:40):
in a high state of fury at one point. You know,
it's all very well documented, but because everyone's looking for
little green men or you know, graves from Zeta Reticula
or what have you, nobody's looking at Okay, what's the connection? Well,
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
What was?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It would have been seven No, no, what? Yeah. It's
a very short time before the whole UFO thing took off,
three years the preparations for D Day, when the United
States and Britain manufactured a complete fake army to buffalo
(24:17):
the Germans to thinking we were going to invade France
in a different place than we were.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Oh I remember this one, You remember that stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
One of the lessons of that that most people don't
realize is that you have several layers of deception. You
don't just hide the truth underneath own layer of fraud.
You set up at least two and maybe more than
two frauds in opposition to one another and get them
fighting back and forth. The German high command was in
a tizzy over which of the false invasion plans were true,
(24:45):
and they finally settled on the one across right across
from Dover at the Pat de Calais, because that's the
one that looked most most plausible. It's just that it
was made to look plausible. Isn't that where the actual
invasion was taking place in normal quite some distance away
and they didn't realize it.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Isn't that where they had tanks that were actually made
of balloon inflatable tanks and.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Other Yeah, they had inflatable tanks. They had entire military
bases that were stocked by There were staffed by small
cruiser actors who were supposed to scurry around looking as
busy as possible. They were planting fake documents. They had
aerial reconnaissance going in places where they had no intention
of invading. They had one group of people who were
set up to convince the Germans that we were going
(25:29):
to invade Norway, another batch that was trying to convince
them we're invade Grief.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Hey, John, stand by, friend. You and I have to
take our news break at the bottom of the hour. Yeah, John,
Michael Grien is our special guest, and John and I
will be back on the other side of this commercial
break as we continue from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Don't go away about them. Whether you're a skeptic or
(26:03):
a believer, Join me Rob McConnell on the Exone TV
Show coming soon to screens of all sizes. On the
x Zone TV Show, We'll investigate UFOs, ghosts, alien abductions,
demonic possession, psychic phenomenon, angels, lake, monsters, Bigfoot, unsolved mysteries,
and all subject matter from within the world of the
(26:25):
paranormal and the science of parapsychology, and much much more.
The Xzone TV Show with Yours Truly, Rob McConnell. Www
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Speaker 6 (29:59):
X welcome to the, xsone a place where fact is
fiction and fiction is. Reality now here's your, Host rob.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
McConnelly wait at The Music Stars, street just making the
(30:39):
most of a.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Dog but to that body is.
Speaker 7 (30:45):
BECOME i see you The snooky.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Can't you feel? Way welcome back. Everyone John Michael greer
(31:21):
is our special guest. Www dot redroom dot. Com Forward
slash Author Forward, Slash John Hyphen Michael Hyphen, greer and
we're talking About john's new. Book it's Entitled THE Ufo, Phenomena,
Fact fantasy And. Disinformation why is, It, john that people
(31:44):
have a desire to be part of THE ufo community
even if they have never seen A ufo but Their internet,
Experts so what do you believe? There their prime directive, is.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
WELL i, mean to some, extent that's that you can't make.
It you can't make an assumption like that without over.
Generalizing there's there's a lot of reasons why people get
caught up in something like, this and there's IT i
suspect it varies fairly dramatically from person to. Person THERE'S i,
mean there's always simple things like the you, know the
conviction that there's something going on and you, know we
(32:22):
need to we need to find out what it. Is
maybe you've maybe you believe, in you believe passionately in
the idea that you know there are alien civilizations out
there visiting and believing in UFOs is a way of
expressing that. Faith maybe you've become convinced that the world
is in deep trouble and that we have to get you,
know we have to have help from. Somewhere so your
faith IN UFOs, is you, know like Our christian's faith
(32:45):
in the imminence of The Second. Coming there's there's a
lot of things that that draw people to this, mythology
AND i think THE ufo thing needs to be, understood
As Carl jung pointed out a long time, ago as a,
mythology as a set of emotionally powerful narratives that many
people find very. Compelling that unfortunately also makes it very
(33:06):
difficult to talk sensibly about what's actually going on, there,
because as with any, mythology people don't like it when
you ask hard questions about the.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Facts but Didn't young also say that flying saucers were you,
know were actually psychological? Projection, well he.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Was he was not perfectly certain about, that he. Argued
he suggested at one point in his essay on the
subject that there might be a physical reality behind. Them
he suggested another point that whatever was going, on they
were certainly powerful symbols that came out of the split
world of the of the Cold war era as an
(33:50):
image of hole in this images of, totality kind of
A mandala, symbol and he found them popping up in
dreams like anything as you'd. Expect, really his essay on
the subject is one of the one of the more
useful things that have been written ABOUT, UFOs AND i
wish more people would pay attention to the kind of
the subtext that he's. Saying, look these are a creation
of a particular historical, period a projection of its, fears its,
(34:13):
hopes and its. Dreams if there is a physical reality
behind behind the, phenomenon or behind certain parts of the,
phenomenon we need to get past our own habit of
projecting our hopes and fears onto, it like so many
patterns on dooinning the, blot and actually look at what
people are, experiencing and then you, know some potentially very than,
(34:36):
usual potentially useful discoveries can be.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Made, john you also say the whole debate ABOUT UFOs
has gotten stuck in a quarrel between two belief, systems
and neither one of them is all that. Convincing now what.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Do you mean by, That, well look at the look
at the, debunkers and the and the what would you,
say the eth, people the extraterrestrial hypothesis. People if it's
the Uf if it's THE, ufo us be an alien.
Spaceship if it's A, ufo it must be a, hoax a,
delusion or as simple. Misidentification those are the belief, systems
are the only beliefs that most people are willing to
(35:10):
approach on the. Subject that didn't used to be true
back as late as the mid nineteen, Fifties so there
were actually a wide range of hypotheses about what these
mysterious lights and objects seen in the sky might. Be
but we've become stuck in these two alternative, views both
of which use an appalling range of false logic to
justify their. Claims and that is true of the, debunkers
(35:31):
by the, way as anyone. Else these folks who go
around calling themselves the defenders of reason use some of
the worst Logic i've seen in any public debate in
a long, time and neither one of them is grappling
with the basic rules of evidence and. Logic just because
something is seen in the sky does not mean you
(35:51):
can automatically assume it's either a delusion or of space
graptens into, riticulate and just because there's an object scene
in this sky doesn't mean that all objects seen in
this guy can be categorized in one you, know as
coming from a single. Cause both sides tend to make
that latter assumption all the, time and it reduces a
(36:12):
lot of what they're trying to say To.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Gibberish what are some of the things that you believe
UFOs could actually.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Be, well we've already talked about the possibility that a
fair number of UFOs of QUOTE ufo unquote sightings are
in fact i identified because they are secret aerospace. Technologies
the aerospace technology that were secret at the time they were,
cited whether high altitudes by balloons in the nineteen forties and,
fifties spy planes. Thereafter there are some QUOTE ufo crashes,
(36:44):
unquote there are pretty Clearly american spy, satellites and so
there's a whole range of things like. That there's also
a range of stuff that you can really only described
by calling a shamannic. Experience take your basic abduct key
story and compare it to a good anthropological account of.
(37:05):
Shamanism Mercello Mercella aliati's Book shamanism is a great, example
and you'll find that it's basically the same. Story you,
know people, are you, know they're lying in, bed or
they're in some kind of liminal, state and all of a,
sudden these mysterious beings come and fit them out of
themselves and take them into another world where strange things
they've done to, them and they come back and a
lot of times thereafter they report having psychic experiences and
(37:27):
things like. This it's basic. Shamanism it's just that we
don't believe in spirits, anymore so we have to call
our spirits little red men From zeta. Articular and then,
YOU i, mean there's at least one other. Phenomenon, arguably
there are balls of light that have been seen in
all different, cultures fairly close to the, ground bobbing, around
and nobody's quite sure what they. Are there have been
(37:49):
some very interesting speculations that they may be a a geomagnetic,
phenomenon may be a plasma. Phenomenon they are not intelligent
as far as we, know but they are all so
folded into THE, ufo THE ufo, mythology THE ufo, phenomenon
because any light in the sky has to be an
alien spacecraft so there are at least these three things going,
(38:10):
on and there's also probably quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
More what about all the evidence the government, involved you,
know the evidence of government involvement IN ufo, Sidings John.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
WELL i think that's totally, predictable given that THE ufo
phenomenon has been manipulated by THE us government and other
governments as a cover for their own. ACTIVITIES i personally
suspect that that involvement has gone to the extent of faking.
SIDINGS i, mean if you go, back especially in the
nineteen fifties and look at the number of quote classic
(38:45):
sidings unquote that were reported either by military personnel or
by people who were under certain military regulations airline, pilots for,
example who were for quite some years subject to federal felony.
Charges if they reported THE ufo, siding and yet they
REPORTED ufo sidings and nobody was prosecuted for, it that
(39:08):
makes perfect. Sense if THE ufo sidings quote unquote that
were under discussion Were american spypline tests and things like,
that and if the ones who reported things were being
requested to report things to muddy the. Waters you, know,
again we were talking about about THE D day cover
up or all that kind of stuff before the stuff
(39:28):
that was used to mislead The. Germans that kind of
thing is a standard deploy in, warfare has been for
a very long time during The Cold. War was there
reason to do? It of course there. Was were There
russian spies in The United, States, yes we know. That
were there other ways that The Soviet union was very
interested in getting information about our? Technologies? Well of, course
(39:49):
was there every reason why The United states might have
jumped on THE ufo thing or whatever it's original sources
might have been and used as as a cover.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Of, Course actually when they saw how the public was
going to gobble it, up and it gave them the
project perfect, Screen, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Exactly you. Know my own guess is that the original
nineteen forty seven flap was caused by a secret test
of spy, balloons and nobody thought nobody government in the
government thought that people were going to, go oh my,
god it's spacecraft from another. Planet but as soon as
they did, so you, know the guys IN Dc langly
and whatever looked together and, said you, know we could
(40:28):
make use of, this and so all through the fifties in,
particular then again especially during the stelf era of the
of the early, eighties before our stealth aircraft were made.
Public you, know it was deliberately, manipulated is a way
of providing a certain amount of camouflage for very very,
sensitive you, know aerospace. Things as far AS i can,
(40:50):
tell it's basically the whole thing has basically been folded
up at this. Point you noticed THAT ufo sightings have
just kind of dried.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Up, yes there.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
ARE i mean there's probably what maybe a billion people
in the world these days walking around with a cell
phone with a camera in, it and you'd think that
some of those people would like see the silvery disks
buzzing by instant pictures of, them and it's not. Happening
SO i think basically probably with the with the demise
of the stealth or possibly some of the the handful
(41:19):
of later, spieplanes The aurora, project which proved to be
such a wide elephant that you, know that whole operation
has been kind of folded up and stuck in a drawer.
SOMEPLACE i don't imagine that it's been completely, discontinued because you,
know any might be useful.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Someday where do you think THE ufo phenomenon will go from, Here, John.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
My, guess unless, again there's some really good reason to
float some new spiplane venture under its, cover and that
might be kind of pushing them. Atter at this, point
my guess is that it's just going to wind down
the way spiritualism, did the way so many other alternative
reality views have. Done In american. Culture we have this.
Thing we get into these fats and they'd become the huge,
(42:08):
cause they become you, know these massive, issues and there's
a lot of, bickering a lot of, debate and then
it just kind of dries, up and you end up
with these little cutteries of true believers off in the. Corner.
Somewhere one hundred years from, now there may still be
these LITTLE ufo groups who are talking About roswell And
betty And Barney hill and so, on and still still
(42:29):
insisting that, someday really, soon we're going to have full
disclosure and it's going to you, know the uf, all
The White House law or. Whatever because that's the way
these things. Happen it's become just another just another, subculture
just another alternative, subculture and sharply a variance with kind
of the mainstream, worldview and it can continue for a long.
TIME i, mean there's a lot of spiritualist churches still out,
(42:51):
there still basically doing the same thing that they're great
great great grandparents were doing in the in eighteen sixties and.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Seventies tell, Me, john do you believe we're are alone out?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
There not at? ALL i. THINK i think there's every
reason to think there are a lot of a lot
of planets with life on. Them we know there are
planets all over all over the. Universe our space tebleskilles
are starting to spot them at this point and to
the point that Is, jha another dozen planets, found AND
i think it's quite reasonable that they have life. FORMS
(43:21):
i have my doubts about the idea that it's possible
to travel from star to stars simply because of the
energy concentration that's. Needed you need so much energy to
cover through those immense distances and, energy you, know energy
in that kind of, concentration that kind of. Convenience, well
we're learning right now the. World you, know our planet
(43:41):
is starting to look at the limits to how long
it can maintain the kind of the kind of high energy.
Technology it hasn't now because we're rapidly exhausting our supplies
of fossil, fuels and nothing else is stepping up with the.
Plate it wouldn't surprise me a bit if you, know
out across the galaxies there are, many, many many other
intelligent species that have been through this exact same. Curve you,
(44:04):
Know they've had their sort of rise. Time they've developed
a high energy, technology had a brief period having lots of, big,
loud fancy, machines and maybe done a little space, travel
and then settled down and had to learn within their,
means or had to learn to live within their. Means
we may get a radio message for them. SOMEDAY i don't.
Know we may never, know BUT i suspect right now
there are, people you, know beings probably nothing like, us you,
(44:27):
know looking up at the sky from some distant planet
and you, know looking out of the stars and, GOING
i wonder if there's anyone out.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
THERE i talked To shawstak FROM seti a number of,
times AND i, Say i've, Said, seth how do you
know that the transmissions that they're sending will be able
to be received or even heard by THE seti. Program,
(44:55):
well we really don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
That, no they could be the could be sending out
things IN x ray bursts or. SOMETHING i, mean it's
a mistake to assume that we that another the technology of,
another a completely alien, species the product of a completely alien,
biosphere would be anything at all like what we call.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Technology, PLUS i, mean we're carbon based. Units they might
be silicon based.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Units they might be they might Be, yeah they could be.
Anything it could be a you, know a hot planet
with where metal salts are combining in ways that you,
know you don't get under any underneath any conditions you
find On. Earth they could be totally different. Chemistry and
even if they're carbon, based it's gonna be a completely different.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Sold on. There sorry about, That, John not a.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Problem it's gonna be completely different problems or a sort of.
Creature we just have no way of imagining what they're,
like what their technologies might. Be and and you, know
they could be sitting there listening to the, sky you,
know USING x ray life and, say, well we're not
getting any. Messages on the other, hand if they do
figure out you could be in. Trouble what if they
(46:09):
pick up old reruns of nineteen fifty.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Sitcoms, boy we would be in.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Trouble, Then, yeah they're going to go red line that you,
know that's The star. System those creatures are. Insane my
mother the?
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Car oh how about mister? Ed yeah, yeah how do
you do any they?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Write, yeah they write these animals that? Talk all?
Speaker 3 (46:31):
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John Michael greer is our special guest Of This Hour.
Explanation his website is www dot red room dot. Com
Forward slash, author Forward Slash John Hyphen Michael Hyphen Greer.
John the way that we've been analyzing THE ufo sightings
(51:13):
and the psychology behind, it it seems that this very
template could be used when it comes To. Ghostbusters it
could be used when it comes to bigfoot, lockness, monster crop.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Circles, oh that's crop circles in. PARTICULAR i, mean that's
one of those. Things it very quickly became an, industry
and a lot for quite a few, years a lot
of money was being made by luring Credulous american, tourists
Mostly american, tourists to do these expensive. Tours there WAS
(51:49):
i WAS i happen to be In britain in two
thousand and, three and there was postcard being sold fairly
commonly all over The West country and little places where
they had a typical, summer said farmer kind of hate
see type sitting there next to a satellite dish with
a pair of earphones and the stack of signs saying
crop circled this way one town entrancing and the thing
(52:11):
the words below the picture were phoning in the order
for next year's. CIRCLES i think it was pretty much
open that that was at a certain point it was being.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Done and yet there are so many there are so
many real mysteries in this world that we take for,
granted for for, Example Stone hinge and all the other
great landmarks that you AND i discussed over the. Years
do you see to, me these are the real. Mysteries
and then people are spending their lives looking in this
(52:48):
in the stive in the sky for UFOs that really aren't,
there in my, opinion or chasing out ghost said out of,
graveyards looking for a lock nest monster that, WELL i don't,
Know i'm seen nessy. Lightly and then there's all all
these other phenomenon that really can't be. Proven when you've
got so many wonderful mysteries that are so rich with
(53:10):
history right in front.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Of, you and we know so many mysteries within. Ourselves,
OH i, mean that's the final. Frontier that's the frontier
we need to be looking at the imagination that it
takes to create a mythology like, food like THE ufo
myth and to use it for all the many purposes
it's been used to to use it as a powerful
(53:32):
tool of motivation for in many different. Ways that's a
Wonder that's something we should be studying and thinking about
and learning from When i'm not not sitting there waiting
for the guys from they to reticulate of them to
get around to landing sixty years after the.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Fact they ain't coming that they they never.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Were but but there's so, Much but there's there's a
remarkable story to be told and a lot of very
interesting just it's a, fascinating very human story how, people you,
know much of the twentieth century came to believe that
we were being visited from other. Worlds that's one of
the Things i've tried to really talk about in the.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Book, JOHN i want to thank you so much for
joining us. Tonight as always a great pleasure talking to.
You let our listeners know how they can find out
about you and where they can get your.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Books, well the books can be Gotten most of my
books can be gotten, online pretty much all of. Them.
Actually if you go to the side that you've mentioned
dub dot redroom dot, com slash author, Slash John, Hyphen
michael Hypen, greer there are sales links on that page
to all my books or your favorite, lobook your favorite
to Local neighborhoo bookstore will happily order things for you
if they don't have them to. Stock it's probably your best.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Bet, John take care of yourself until you AND i
meet here in THE exe in the very near. Future take,
care my. Friend i'll look forward to another, conversation Right,
John take. Care John Michael greer has been our guest this,
hour and in the next Hour i've got a gentleman
coming on who's going to tell you how to get
fired from your. Job, now why anyone would want to
(54:59):
get fired from a job is beyond, Me but this
is the exone and we'll be back on the other
side of this. Brake don't go. Away
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Speaker 3 (00:54):
Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, join me Rob
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We'll investigate UFOs, ghosts, alien abductions, demonic possession, psychic phenomenon, angels,
lake monsters, bigfoot, unsolved mysteries, and all subject matter from
(01:17):
within the world of the paranormal and the science of parapsychology,
and much much more The x Zone TV Show with
Yours Truly, Rob McConnell. Www. Dot x zonetv dot com
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Has she been rescued or abducted by aliens?
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Speaker 5 (02:46):
All Henry, Welcome to the ex Zone.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
We're fact is fiction and fiction is reality. Now here's
your host, Rob vicconnell.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I like treating.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
God, streaming convey you man. I like dreaming, closing my eyes.
Speaker 7 (03:36):
And feeling fine when let's go down. I'm holding you
so times.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Gotcha mon.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
And it's charade to.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
The morning life.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
I see us saw on the shore.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And welcome back to the xCE on every one. My
name is Rob McConnell, coming to from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
On the All New Xzone Broadcast Network and the Talk
Star Radio Network. My email address is Xzone at Xzonradio
TV dot com, on MSN messenger, x Zone Radio TV
at hotmail dot com, at our website www dot Xzonradio
(04:22):
tv dot com. My guest this hour is a good
friend of the x Zone. John Michael Greer is his name,
and John Michael Greer has been a student of monster,
lure and the occult since nineteen seventy five. He is
also the author of several books, including Naturalmagic, Potions and
(04:43):
Powers from the Magical Garden, Circles of Power, Ritual Magic
in the Western Tradition, and Inside a Magical Lodge. He
has written articles for Renaissance Magazine, Golden Down Journal, Meslim,
New Moon, Rising, Nassis, and Alexandria. As student and practitioner
(05:03):
of geomancy and sacred geometry for more than twenty years,
fluent in Latin and Medieval French for the past five years,
and a certified Tarot grand Master, John Michael Greer has
studied a geomatic text from the Middle Ages and Renaissance,
learning and testing out the techniques that were used when
(05:24):
geomanc was at its height. John Michael Greer is an
active member of five Fraternal and two Magical Lodges, and
he's joining us tonight to talk about his one of
his new books. This man writes more books than anyone
I know. The name of the book that we're going
to be talking about in the first part of the
show is the UFO phenomenon, Fact, Fantasy and Disinformation and
(05:47):
John Michael Greer, Welcome back to the X Zone. How
are you, John?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doing very well with a pleasure beyond again.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
It's great having you with us. John. Your new book
is about UFOs and the subtitle is Fact, Fantasy and Disinformation.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
HM.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Three very interesting aspects of eupology.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yes, oh yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Here we are. The thing is go go ahead, go ahead, sir.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
There's one of the problems with the whole UFO phenomenon
is that partly it isn't just one phenomenon. That's I
think the thing that has caused more confusion than anything
else is the fact that people have been trying to
get all of these extremely diverse experiences under a single head.
And there are some things going on that are unquestionably factual.
There are some things going on that are pretty clearly fantasy,
(06:37):
and there are some things going on that involve the
deliberate manipulation of information. Disinformation is the phrases.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I came up with a theory several months ago where
if there is a UFO conspiracy, it's not the government
that is maintaining it or perpetrating it, it's actually members
of the UFO community. Because as long as they are
pointing the finger in saying that there is a government conspiracy,
they do not have to produce any evidence to the
(07:06):
actual existence of UFOs because anything that they would want
to show has already been confiscated and taken by the
government in their so called conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
That's funny. So in other words, yeah, the government conspiracy
is so good that that's why we don't have any evidence.
It's all their fault.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, that's what the UFO community is saying.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It's like the people out there who insist that, oh, say,
the Freemasons or somebody around the world, and the fact
that there's no evidence for this just proves how clever.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
They are, exactly exactly, Well, I think one of.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
The things that has to be understood in dealing with
the UFOs and with that whole phenomenon and many other
phenomena is that there's not just one room of people
who are trying to manipulate the information.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
And you see, that's where the big surprise comes. Because
when it comes to the manipulation of information, according to
what uphologists and researchers would like us to believe, the
manipulation comes from the government.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Well, I would start by seeing which government, because not
all governments have the same agenda in this situation. It's
been tolerably well documented, for example, that the Soviet Union,
back when there was a Soviet Union, used quote UFO
sightings unquote as a cover for some of the aerospace TSK.
One of the things I suggested in my book is
that they basically caught that looks in the United States government,
(08:34):
which has been doing the same thing for a long time,
and that other countries around the world have used, Oh
it must be a UFOs as a very convenient cover
for having airplanes or other technologies someplace where they weren't
supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
John, stand by you and I have to take our
first break. John Michael Greer is our special guest. Here's
the website ex Oanation www dot zoom dot com. Forward
Slash author forward Slash John Dash Michael Dash Greer. We'll
be back on the other side of this break. Don't
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Exone TV show coming soon to screens of all sizes.
On the x Zone TV Show, we'll investigate UFOs, ghosts,
alien abductions, demonic possession, psychic phenomenon, angels, lake, monsters, Bigfoot,
unsolved mysteries, and all subject matter from within the world
of the paranormal and the science of parapsychology, and much
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much more. The Xzone TV Show, with Yours Truly. Rob
McConnell www dot xzonetv dot com is a realmer McConnell
Media Company and Airplay Media Production.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
Start have a music and free whenever it starts, and
it's magic. If the music is moving, it makes you
feel happy, like an old time moveing.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
I'll tell you about the magic and a free on
soul and it's like Plana calls.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Danger balla rocking off Phonemagine, don't father and choose if
it's John fans music odom and Mother's just going listen
little sound a smile, the don't climb on your face
no matter how on your track we start tapping in.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
You can't see the fire.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
The ample, so your life. John Michael Greer is my
special guest at this hour. Www dot Redroom dot com.
Forward Slash author Forward Slash, John Hyphen, Michael Hyphen, and
(14:00):
Greer Mike John. We're more than sixty years into the
UFO era and a fair sized library of books have
been written about the phenomenon. Is there anything new to
say about it?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Or is it a go ahead now?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Or is it the same old, same old being hashed
over again.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, we've been hearing the same old, same old, same
old for about sixty years now. That doesn't mean there's
nothing that's left to say. It means that the entire
debate has become mired in a couple of completely unproductive assumptions.
Talk to almost anybody in the UFO community or these
days outside of it, and you'll find one of two opinions.
Either UFOs or space or nuts and bold spaceships from
(14:43):
some alien civilization, or they are entirely hoaxes, misidentifications and delusions.
Those are the only two hypotheses people are willing to
talk about, and there's an assumption that if one is false,
the other must be true. This is hardly logical, it's not.
I mean, the fact is that unidentified things seen in
(15:05):
the sky, which is what UFO means. After all, it
doesn't mean alien spacecraft. Unidentified things seen in the sky
can have many different origins, and we need to get
past those assumptions and actually start talking about what do
people actually see, what is influencing what they see, and
what might be behind it.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
What does the history of the phenomenon have to do
with figuring out what's really out there or up there?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, the history is crucial because, I mean, if you
are a scientist actually researching a phenomenon, instead of either
trying to debunk it or trying to insist on some
preconceived notion, you start by figuring out what is the phenomenon,
how does it change over time? And the thing that
you're going to find out if you track the UFO
phenomenon over time is that it changes in lockstep with
(15:51):
popular culture, and popular culture changes first across the board.
You see something in the UFO world out of popular
that you know, if you see something showing up in
the sky people report in UFOs, look back a few
years or even a couple of decades, and you'll find
that it was in popular culture. First. This doesn't offer
(16:14):
any support to the claim that these are aliens from space.
It does suggest there are some very complex feedback loops
going on.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And you know, we've seen this over the years. Where
a movie comes out, people go to see it. It
have less whether it's et close encounters of the third kind,
independence day after the movie, incidents rise and then they fall.
You know, it's a peak, but up and down goodbye.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Well, it's also the case that the type of incidents
that are reported are directly influenced by movies and other
media phenomenon in advance. For example, the flying sauce or
the disc shaped spacecraft buzzing through the sky that was
actually invented by science fiction magazine cover artists, the first
one that I've been able to track with in nineteen seventeen,
and only after they had saturated the magazine covers through
(17:04):
the era of the pulps in the thirties and forties,
especially on the pages of Amazing Science Fiction Ray Polmer's
extremely famous lowbrow science fiction rank. Do people start seeing
them in the sky in the same way abductions became
an issue after abduction started showing up in popular culture
in the form of books and movies.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
So how do we go through the people who are
making the claims of these sightings to those who have
actually had a citing of something that they cannot understand
within the realm of reality. To those who are just
profiting from the phenomenon, it's a challenge.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's a real challenge. One of the things that basically
needs to happen is to take a step back from
the individual cases, because especially the famous cases. These days,
you get a situation like Rosswell, you get the Benny
Barney Hill, the Betty and Barney Hill case, you get
you know, any of a dozen others that have become
the big cases. And at this point they are so
(18:10):
surrounded by layers of mythology, both pro alien and pro
debunker mythology, but it's almost impossible to figure out what
actually goes on. Look at the phenomenon over a broad
over a broader spectrum, say what changes are happening to
it in the forties and the fifties and the sixties
and the seventies, how does it change and what else
(18:31):
tracks those thing changes. Then you start getting a hint
of what's under, what's behind the whole thing, of the
very complex causes of this extremely complex phenomena.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
All right, when we look at the Betty and Barney
Hill case, we look at Roswell and let's just concentrate
on Roswell for a second. All these years afterwards, there's
a lot of hype, there's a lot of speculation, there's
a lot of he said, she said, he's saw they
saw in this entire scenario, and to coin the phrase
(19:05):
from the Little Wendy's Lady that where's the beef? There
is no proof, there is no evidence. And what would
have happened to the Roswell case if Stanton Friedman had
not written his book?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, well you have Stanton Friedman's book. You go back
before you get the one that Charles Berlitz did with
the other two researchers that really put it back on
the map. And the fascinating thing about that book is
that it actually lifted most of it, or many of
its details from an earlier book about a completely faked
UFO crash at Aztec One that was just invented by
(19:38):
her by a couple of con artists who sold the
story to Frank Scully. And so you get this situation.
Here's another place where history matters look at the details
and say where have I seen that before? And in
many cases, again you could trace it to popular culture.
You can trace it to themes moving through the UFO
community as they're elaborated in more and more versions. So
(19:59):
you could just kind of I get back and say,
what was actually going on in the summer of nineteen
forty seven, And that actually becomes a very interesting question
because you notice, among other things, that the kind of
UFOs that were being seen in nineteen forty seven are
not being seen today. The things that people reported and
(20:21):
photographed during the big UFO flap in the summer of
forty seven in late Juring early July nineteen forty seven
were silver, round or spherical objects at high altitude. That's
what they saw.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So how come that change?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, so there were sp We had these spherical daylight
objects which were seen quite frequently during that flap, and
a couple of others. Later after the mid nineteen fifties,
the phenomenon changed to bright lights at high altitude. Primarily
that was the thing. There are some other things that
were also experiencing. That becomes a complex matter of course.
We're I think everyone is now aware of the black
(21:03):
triangles which showed up in the very early nineteen eighties
and became a big deal for a while. Now ask
yourself this, who was doing something with spherical silver object
in the nineteen forties, lights at high altitude in the
nineteen fifties and sixties, Black triangles in.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The nineteen eighties, the US government, the.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
US Air Force, we're talking about a history of American
aerial espionage. In the nineteen forties and early nineteen fifties,
the hot technology for aerial espionage was held to balloons.
Nineteen fifty four saw the U two enter service. In
the early nineteen sixties you had the SR seventy one,
both of which you see anomal of life moving like
(21:45):
stars against the background at very high altitude at Donner
Dusk nineteen eighty. The hottest thing and the most secret
thing in the US military cupboard was the stealth the
first stealth planes.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
And I remember, I remember John, there were people who
would rent vans and dampler radar units in droves and
head up to the hills the surrounding area of fifty
one and see these lights in the sky and had
no idea why they were not getting a radar return.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
But there you go, because in fact that's where that's
where the stealth productype have Blue was being tested. That's
all the places. Yeah, and so and in fact, one
of the things that is most interesting to me about
the whole UFO phenomenon is that, except for the fact
that they got the one central thing wrong, many of
(22:34):
the UFO believers are right about a lot of things.
Are they right that there's something really really funny associated
with the UFOs going on at Area fifty one, Absolutely,
that's where America's spyplane fleet was based for me decades.
Are they right that the government's hiding something? Of course,
they're right, it's just that it's not spacecraft from another civilization,
(22:55):
it's you know, fairly well documented area lesbian our technologies.
Are they right that the government has been turning out disinformation? Absolutely.
What I don't think they've grasped is that the whole
story that these things are aliens from space is part
of the disinformation.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
And they're not grasping the fact that this is all
being done in a matter of national security.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's yeah, and totally well documented stuff. You can go
back and get a lot of information on the old
spy balloon tests of the forties and fifties. I mean,
the United States flew barrages of spy balloons over the
Soviet Union from one end to the other. The Russians.
Krushiav displayed one of them at a big international conference
(23:40):
in a high state of fury at one point. You know,
it's all very well documented, but because everyone's looking for
little green men or you know, graves from Zeta Reticula
or what have you, nobody's looking at Okay, what's the connection? Well,
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
What was?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It would have been seven No, no, what? Yeah. It's
a very short time before the whole UFO thing took off,
three years the preparations for D Day, when the United
States and Britain manufactured a complete fake army to buffalo
(24:17):
the Germans to thinking we were going to invade France
in a different place than we were.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Oh I remember this one, You remember that stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
One of the lessons of that that most people don't
realize is that you have several layers of deception. You
don't just hide the truth underneath own layer of fraud.
You set up at least two and maybe more than
two frauds in opposition to one another and get them
fighting back and forth. The German high command was in
a tizzy over which of the false invasion plans were true,
(24:45):
and they finally settled on the one across right across
from Dover at the Pat de Calais, because that's the
one that looked most most plausible. It's just that it
was made to look plausible. Isn't that where the actual
invasion was taking place in normal quite some distance away
and they didn't realize it.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Isn't that where they had tanks that were actually made
of balloon inflatable tanks and.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Other Yeah, they had inflatable tanks. They had entire military
bases that were stocked by There were staffed by small
cruiser actors who were supposed to scurry around looking as
busy as possible. They were planting fake documents. They had
aerial reconnaissance going in places where they had no intention
of invading. They had one group of people who were
set up to convince the Germans that we were going
(25:29):
to invade Norway, another batch that was trying to convince
them we're invade Grief.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Hey, John, stand by, friend. You and I have to
take our news break at the bottom of the hour. Yeah, John,
Michael Grien is our special guest, and John and I
will be back on the other side of this commercial
break as we continue from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Don't go away about them. Whether you're a skeptic or
(26:03):
a believer, Join me Rob McConnell on the Exone TV
Show coming soon to screens of all sizes. On the
x Zone TV Show, We'll investigate UFOs, ghosts, alien abductions,
demonic possession, psychic phenomenon, angels, lake, monsters, Bigfoot, unsolved mysteries,
and all subject matter from within the world of the
(26:25):
paranormal and the science of parapsychology, and much much more.
The Xzone TV Show with Yours Truly, Rob McConnell. Www
Dot xzonetv dot com is a Realmer McConnell media company
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Com my name Is Michael, Taltar canada's leading a mental
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Speaker 7 (29:51):
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Speaker 7 (30:09):
McConnelly wait at The Music Stars, street just making the
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Speaker 3 (30:40):
Dog but to that body is.
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BECOME i see you The snooky.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Can't you feel? Way welcome back. Everyone John Michael greer
(31:21):
is our special guest. Www dot redroom dot. Com Forward
slash Author Forward, Slash John Hyphen Michael Hyphen, greer and
we're talking About john's new. Book it's Entitled THE Ufo, Phenomena,
Fact fantasy And. Disinformation why is, It, john that people
(31:44):
have a desire to be part of THE ufo community
even if they have never seen A ufo but Their internet,
Experts so what do you believe? There their prime directive, is.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
WELL i, mean to some, extent that's that you can't make.
It you can't make an assumption like that without over.
Generalizing there's there's a lot of reasons why people get
caught up in something like, this and there's IT i
suspect it varies fairly dramatically from person to. Person THERE'S i,
mean there's always simple things like the you, know the
conviction that there's something going on and you, know we
(32:22):
need to we need to find out what it. Is
maybe you've maybe you believe, in you believe passionately in
the idea that you know there are alien civilizations out
there visiting and believing in UFOs is a way of
expressing that. Faith maybe you've become convinced that the world
is in deep trouble and that we have to get you,
know we have to have help from. Somewhere so your
faith IN UFOs, is you, know like Our christian's faith
(32:45):
in the imminence of The Second. Coming there's there's a
lot of things that that draw people to this, mythology
AND i think THE ufo thing needs to be, understood
As Carl jung pointed out a long time, ago as a,
mythology as a set of emotionally powerful narratives that many
people find very. Compelling that unfortunately also makes it very
(33:06):
difficult to talk sensibly about what's actually going on, there,
because as with any, mythology people don't like it when
you ask hard questions about the.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Facts but Didn't young also say that flying saucers were you,
know were actually psychological? Projection, well he.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Was he was not perfectly certain about, that he. Argued
he suggested at one point in his essay on the
subject that there might be a physical reality behind. Them
he suggested another point that whatever was going, on they
were certainly powerful symbols that came out of the split
world of the of the Cold war era as an
(33:50):
image of hole in this images of, totality kind of
A mandala, symbol and he found them popping up in
dreams like anything as you'd. Expect, really his essay on
the subject is one of the one of the more
useful things that have been written ABOUT, UFOs AND i
wish more people would pay attention to the kind of
the subtext that he's. Saying, look these are a creation
of a particular historical, period a projection of its, fears its,
(34:13):
hopes and its. Dreams if there is a physical reality
behind behind the, phenomenon or behind certain parts of the,
phenomenon we need to get past our own habit of
projecting our hopes and fears onto, it like so many
patterns on dooinning the, blot and actually look at what
people are, experiencing and then you, know some potentially very than,
(34:36):
usual potentially useful discoveries can be.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Made, john you also say the whole debate ABOUT UFOs
has gotten stuck in a quarrel between two belief, systems
and neither one of them is all that. Convincing now what.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Do you mean by, That, well look at the look
at the, debunkers and the and the what would you,
say the eth, people the extraterrestrial hypothesis. People if it's
the Uf if it's THE, ufo us be an alien.
Spaceship if it's A, ufo it must be a, hoax a,
delusion or as simple. Misidentification those are the belief, systems
are the only beliefs that most people are willing to
(35:10):
approach on the. Subject that didn't used to be true
back as late as the mid nineteen, Fifties so there
were actually a wide range of hypotheses about what these
mysterious lights and objects seen in the sky might. Be
but we've become stuck in these two alternative, views both
of which use an appalling range of false logic to
justify their. Claims and that is true of the, debunkers
(35:31):
by the, way as anyone. Else these folks who go
around calling themselves the defenders of reason use some of
the worst Logic i've seen in any public debate in
a long, time and neither one of them is grappling
with the basic rules of evidence and. Logic just because
something is seen in the sky does not mean you
(35:51):
can automatically assume it's either a delusion or of space
graptens into, riticulate and just because there's an object scene
in this sky doesn't mean that all objects seen in
this guy can be categorized in one you, know as
coming from a single. Cause both sides tend to make
that latter assumption all the, time and it reduces a
(36:12):
lot of what they're trying to say To.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Gibberish what are some of the things that you believe
UFOs could actually.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Be, well we've already talked about the possibility that a
fair number of UFOs of QUOTE ufo unquote sightings are
in fact i identified because they are secret aerospace. Technologies
the aerospace technology that were secret at the time they were,
cited whether high altitudes by balloons in the nineteen forties and,
fifties spy planes. Thereafter there are some QUOTE ufo crashes,
(36:44):
unquote there are pretty Clearly american spy, satellites and so
there's a whole range of things like. That there's also
a range of stuff that you can really only described
by calling a shamannic. Experience take your basic abduct key
story and compare it to a good anthropological account of.
(37:05):
Shamanism Mercello Mercella aliati's Book shamanism is a great, example
and you'll find that it's basically the same. Story you,
know people, are you, know they're lying in, bed or
they're in some kind of liminal, state and all of a,
sudden these mysterious beings come and fit them out of
themselves and take them into another world where strange things
they've done to, them and they come back and a
lot of times thereafter they report having psychic experiences and
(37:27):
things like. This it's basic. Shamanism it's just that we
don't believe in spirits, anymore so we have to call
our spirits little red men From zeta. Articular and then,
YOU i, mean there's at least one other. Phenomenon, arguably
there are balls of light that have been seen in
all different, cultures fairly close to the, ground bobbing, around
and nobody's quite sure what they. Are there have been
(37:49):
some very interesting speculations that they may be a a geomagnetic,
phenomenon may be a plasma. Phenomenon they are not intelligent
as far as we, know but they are all so
folded into THE, ufo THE ufo, mythology THE ufo, phenomenon
because any light in the sky has to be an
alien spacecraft so there are at least these three things going,
(38:10):
on and there's also probably quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
More what about all the evidence the government, involved you,
know the evidence of government involvement IN ufo, Sidings John.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
WELL i think that's totally, predictable given that THE ufo
phenomenon has been manipulated by THE us government and other
governments as a cover for their own. ACTIVITIES i personally
suspect that that involvement has gone to the extent of faking.
SIDINGS i, mean if you go, back especially in the
nineteen fifties and look at the number of quote classic
(38:45):
sidings unquote that were reported either by military personnel or
by people who were under certain military regulations airline, pilots for,
example who were for quite some years subject to federal felony.
Charges if they reported THE ufo, siding and yet they
REPORTED ufo sidings and nobody was prosecuted for, it that
(39:08):
makes perfect. Sense if THE ufo sidings quote unquote that
were under discussion Were american spypline tests and things like,
that and if the ones who reported things were being
requested to report things to muddy the. Waters you, know,
again we were talking about about THE D day cover
up or all that kind of stuff before the stuff
(39:28):
that was used to mislead The. Germans that kind of
thing is a standard deploy in, warfare has been for
a very long time during The Cold. War was there
reason to do? It of course there. Was were There
russian spies in The United, States, yes we know. That
were there other ways that The Soviet union was very
interested in getting information about our? Technologies? Well of, course
(39:49):
was there every reason why The United states might have
jumped on THE ufo thing or whatever it's original sources
might have been and used as as a cover.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Of, Course actually when they saw how the public was
going to gobble it, up and it gave them the
project perfect, Screen, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Exactly you. Know my own guess is that the original
nineteen forty seven flap was caused by a secret test
of spy, balloons and nobody thought nobody government in the
government thought that people were going to, go oh my,
god it's spacecraft from another. Planet but as soon as
they did, so you, know the guys IN Dc langly
and whatever looked together and, said you, know we could
(40:28):
make use of, this and so all through the fifties in,
particular then again especially during the stelf era of the
of the early, eighties before our stealth aircraft were made.
Public you, know it was deliberately, manipulated is a way
of providing a certain amount of camouflage for very very,
sensitive you, know aerospace. Things as far AS i can,
(40:50):
tell it's basically the whole thing has basically been folded
up at this. Point you noticed THAT ufo sightings have
just kind of dried.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Up, yes there.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
ARE i mean there's probably what maybe a billion people
in the world these days walking around with a cell
phone with a camera in, it and you'd think that
some of those people would like see the silvery disks
buzzing by instant pictures of, them and it's not. Happening
SO i think basically probably with the with the demise
of the stealth or possibly some of the the handful
(41:19):
of later, spieplanes The aurora, project which proved to be
such a wide elephant that you, know that whole operation
has been kind of folded up and stuck in a drawer.
SOMEPLACE i don't imagine that it's been completely, discontinued because you,
know any might be useful.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Someday where do you think THE ufo phenomenon will go from, Here, John.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
My, guess unless, again there's some really good reason to
float some new spiplane venture under its, cover and that
might be kind of pushing them. Atter at this, point
my guess is that it's just going to wind down
the way spiritualism, did the way so many other alternative
reality views have. Done In american. Culture we have this.
Thing we get into these fats and they'd become the huge,
(42:08):
cause they become you, know these massive, issues and there's
a lot of, bickering a lot of, debate and then
it just kind of dries, up and you end up
with these little cutteries of true believers off in the. Corner.
Somewhere one hundred years from, now there may still be
these LITTLE ufo groups who are talking About roswell And
betty And Barney hill and so, on and still still
(42:29):
insisting that, someday really, soon we're going to have full
disclosure and it's going to you, know the uf, all
The White House law or. Whatever because that's the way
these things. Happen it's become just another just another, subculture
just another alternative, subculture and sharply a variance with kind
of the mainstream, worldview and it can continue for a long.
TIME i, mean there's a lot of spiritualist churches still out,
(42:51):
there still basically doing the same thing that they're great
great great grandparents were doing in the in eighteen sixties and.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Seventies tell, Me, john do you believe we're are alone out?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
There not at? ALL i. THINK i think there's every
reason to think there are a lot of a lot
of planets with life on. Them we know there are
planets all over all over the. Universe our space tebleskilles
are starting to spot them at this point and to
the point that Is, jha another dozen planets, found AND
i think it's quite reasonable that they have life. FORMS
(43:21):
i have my doubts about the idea that it's possible
to travel from star to stars simply because of the
energy concentration that's. Needed you need so much energy to
cover through those immense distances and, energy you, know energy
in that kind of, concentration that kind of. Convenience, well
we're learning right now the. World you, know our planet
(43:41):
is starting to look at the limits to how long
it can maintain the kind of the kind of high energy.
Technology it hasn't now because we're rapidly exhausting our supplies
of fossil, fuels and nothing else is stepping up with the.
Plate it wouldn't surprise me a bit if you, know
out across the galaxies there are, many, many many other
intelligent species that have been through this exact same. Curve you,
(44:04):
Know they've had their sort of rise. Time they've developed
a high energy, technology had a brief period having lots of, big,
loud fancy, machines and maybe done a little space, travel
and then settled down and had to learn within their,
means or had to learn to live within their. Means
we may get a radio message for them. SOMEDAY i don't.
Know we may never, know BUT i suspect right now
there are, people you, know beings probably nothing like, us you,
(44:27):
know looking up at the sky from some distant planet
and you, know looking out of the stars and, GOING
i wonder if there's anyone out.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
THERE i talked To shawstak FROM seti a number of,
times AND i, Say i've, Said, seth how do you
know that the transmissions that they're sending will be able
to be received or even heard by THE seti. Program,
(44:55):
well we really don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
That, no they could be the could be sending out
things IN x ray bursts or. SOMETHING i, mean it's
a mistake to assume that we that another the technology of,
another a completely alien, species the product of a completely alien,
biosphere would be anything at all like what we call.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Technology, PLUS i, mean we're carbon based. Units they might
be silicon based.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Units they might be they might Be, yeah they could be.
Anything it could be a you, know a hot planet
with where metal salts are combining in ways that you,
know you don't get under any underneath any conditions you
find On. Earth they could be totally different. Chemistry and
even if they're carbon, based it's gonna be a completely different.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Sold on. There sorry about, That, John not a.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Problem it's gonna be completely different problems or a sort of.
Creature we just have no way of imagining what they're,
like what their technologies might. Be and and you, know
they could be sitting there listening to the, sky you,
know USING x ray life and, say, well we're not
getting any. Messages on the other, hand if they do
figure out you could be in. Trouble what if they
(46:09):
pick up old reruns of nineteen fifty.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Sitcoms, boy we would be in.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Trouble, Then, yeah they're going to go red line that you,
know that's The star. System those creatures are. Insane my
mother the?
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Car oh how about mister? Ed yeah, yeah how do
you do any they?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Write, yeah they write these animals that? Talk all?
Speaker 3 (46:31):
Right stand By johnny AND i have to take your
final Life John boys our special guest as a Website
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It what if you invested twenty years of your life in?
Him what if he tested his substances on your? Child
what if your child makes brain damaged as a. Result
meet Doctor Tyler, bellknapp a fast Talking texas admin turned
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(47:35):
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(48:27):
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she believes all gods and goddesses are valid and that
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Speaker 3 (49:11):
Com rob McConnell here presenting an overview For Nicholas Paul,
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revealed By, egyptologist facts that enable us to understand Why
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(49:52):
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Time Come.
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John Michael greer is our special guest Of This Hour.
Explanation his website is www dot red room dot. Com
Forward slash, author Forward Slash John Hyphen Michael Hyphen Greer.
John the way that we've been analyzing THE ufo sightings
(51:13):
and the psychology behind, it it seems that this very
template could be used when it comes To. Ghostbusters it
could be used when it comes to bigfoot, lockness, monster crop.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Circles, oh that's crop circles in. PARTICULAR i, mean that's
one of those. Things it very quickly became an, industry
and a lot for quite a few, years a lot
of money was being made by luring Credulous american, tourists
Mostly american, tourists to do these expensive. Tours there WAS
(51:49):
i WAS i happen to be In britain in two
thousand and, three and there was postcard being sold fairly
commonly all over The West country and little places where
they had a typical, summer said farmer kind of hate
see type sitting there next to a satellite dish with
a pair of earphones and the stack of signs saying
crop circled this way one town entrancing and the thing
(52:11):
the words below the picture were phoning in the order
for next year's. CIRCLES i think it was pretty much
open that that was at a certain point it was being.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Done and yet there are so many there are so
many real mysteries in this world that we take for,
granted for for, Example Stone hinge and all the other
great landmarks that you AND i discussed over the. Years
do you see to, me these are the real. Mysteries
and then people are spending their lives looking in this
(52:48):
in the stive in the sky for UFOs that really aren't,
there in my, opinion or chasing out ghost said out of,
graveyards looking for a lock nest monster that, WELL i don't,
Know i'm seen nessy. Lightly and then there's all all
these other phenomenon that really can't be. Proven when you've
got so many wonderful mysteries that are so rich with
(53:10):
history right in front.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Of, you and we know so many mysteries within. Ourselves,
OH i, mean that's the final. Frontier that's the frontier
we need to be looking at the imagination that it
takes to create a mythology like, food like THE ufo
myth and to use it for all the many purposes
it's been used to to use it as a powerful
(53:32):
tool of motivation for in many different. Ways that's a
Wonder that's something we should be studying and thinking about
and learning from When i'm not not sitting there waiting
for the guys from they to reticulate of them to
get around to landing sixty years after the.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Fact they ain't coming that they they never.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Were but but there's so, Much but there's there's a
remarkable story to be told and a lot of very
interesting just it's a, fascinating very human story how, people you,
know much of the twentieth century came to believe that
we were being visited from other. Worlds that's one of
the Things i've tried to really talk about in the.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Book, JOHN i want to thank you so much for
joining us. Tonight as always a great pleasure talking to.
You let our listeners know how they can find out
about you and where they can get your.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Books, well the books can be Gotten most of my
books can be gotten, online pretty much all of. Them.
Actually if you go to the side that you've mentioned
dub dot redroom dot, com slash author, Slash John, Hyphen
michael Hypen, greer there are sales links on that page
to all my books or your favorite, lobook your favorite
to Local neighborhoo bookstore will happily order things for you
if they don't have them to. Stock it's probably your best.
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Bet, John take care of yourself until you AND i
meet here in THE exe in the very near. Future take,
care my. Friend i'll look forward to another, conversation Right,
John take. Care John Michael greer has been our guest this,
hour and in the next Hour i've got a gentleman
coming on who's going to tell you how to get
fired from your. Job, now why anyone would want to
(54:59):
get fired from a job is beyond, Me but this
is the exone and we'll be back on the other
side of this. Brake don't go. Away
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