Symbiotic is Revolutionizing Crypto Staking! with Jillian Friedman

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, folks, we're recording at chain Links Smart Cohn and
joining me is Jillian Friedman, who is the chief operating
officer at Symbiotic. Jillian, great to have.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
You, Thank you for having me. Excited.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yeah, excited to dive into Symbiotic. I would love to
start with your background, because you have a very fascinating background.
You were in TRADFI, you also ran a debt, so
tell us a bit about yourself there.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Sure, I actually launched my career as a bitcoin lawyer
back before there only was bitcoin, got to deal with
all of those initial legal challenges around icos when Ethereum
was launched in twenty fourteen. Sure kind of spent the
first half of my career beating the crypto blockchain drum

(00:48):
to the traditional finance world with varying degrees of success.
And then as the I was the head of digital
asset strategy at one of Canada's big banks. But right
before Symbiotic, I was the COO and CFO of one
of the first digital asset treasury companies called ether Capital,

(01:09):
before they were a thing, and so really got to
experience firsthand staking, institutional staking and like what that frontier
looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
That's incredible. You're an OG jillion, I'm old. Yeah, you
I mean you're around when was just a bitcoin and
then being early to dats as well is pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yes, and a lot of the challenges related to dats
as well. Yeah, it's been really interesting seeing the evolution
from the institutional perspective, and like, you know, there's that
expression that people people overestimate how quickly technology will impact things,

(01:52):
and they underestimate what the impact will be. Sure, kind
of burgering it, but like I think that's true. Right,
like ten years ago, we were kind of just using
different words for the same thing, Like they weren't RWA's,
they were called something else. They weren't called stable coins,
they were called something else. But it's really exciting now
because you're seeing some of that stuff actually manifest So

(02:12):
it's been really cool to watch.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Is it validating for you, you know, being an OG
and seeing all the adoptions happening, I would tradify it
seems everybody is looking to integrate blockchain in some way
or some fashion.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's definitely validating, And it's also I take things with
a big grain of salt because I still believe that
product market fit is a lot further away than people
think for a lot of these different tech solutions. Sure,

(02:51):
And what is exciting though, is seeing product market fit
happen with, for example, stable coins, like we run almost
our entire business on stable coin rails. Sure, that's really exciting.
But yeah, so it's validating and it also gives like
some perspective of like, okay, yeah, like some of this
stuff is happening with some of this stuff is further

(03:12):
away than we realize. Not from a tech perspective, Okay,
it's really from a product market fit.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
And do you think the product market fit lag if
you want to call it, that is related to lack
of crypto legislation or clarity in addition to we're still
in the trial and error phase for some of these things.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think it's a mix, regulation being one of them,
but not the only one. Sure, if you're talking about
like retail for example, or just mass adoption, the on
off apps and like the ease of access is critical.

(03:53):
If you're talking about capital markets, which is more I
would say institutional adoption, and where I think, you know,
like we could speak about symbiotic as well, and like
what we're doing, there's there's missing, there's there's missing pieces
that need to be built, but there's also like the
need to and we're talking about this before, like communicate,

(04:15):
communicate the opportunity and like switch things from very very
technical to like speaking the language of whether it's capital
markets people or martial bankers or etc. And like making
them understand opportunity and vice versa.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, it feels like some of that is happening, but
it's not fully there yet.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Like I think some of it's happening, yeah, and it's yeah,
like the floodgates are open. I think this is the
most exciting time, yeah, to be in crypto, other than
like maybe ten plus years ago, when it was like
everything was like the first time stuff was happening right,
but it was still so uncertain, like is e theory
I'm going to be a thing like what's bitcoin? Bitcoin's

(04:57):
died like twenty times or something. Right to have to
have the access that you have now and the political
will that you have now and the regulatory clarity from
like the world's biggest markets, absolutely can't like no better
time to be in the space.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
It's exciting. And here in the United States going to
you're not based in the United States, Here in Canada,
we're waiting on that Market Structure Clarity Act, and I
can't wait to see the innovation and the economic boom
that comes from that once everybody knows what the rules
of the role are.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yes, and I would qualify that with a with a butt,
and I think this is happening. This is going to
happen as well in Canada. There's actually a budget coming
out today and it's very likely that there will be
insight into how they plan to regulate stable coins and
just the crypto markets in general. And take for example,
the issue of yield bearing stable coins and the fact

(05:57):
that in like the US bills, it seems like it's
still still like complicated and unclear how an entity could
issue and launch a yield bearing stable cooin on how
that could like circulate in the market.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Sure, and you.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Know it's clearly like the banks and many financial institutions
make a lot of money keeping that yield for themselves.
And so this is another like, yes, clarity is important,
but also like what type of clarity and what kind
of like openness it creates for innovation and competitiveness in

(06:34):
the market.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, well, put, I think to your point, like the
Genius Act was pastor in the United States, but there's
still some pushback from some of the banks. There's still
talks of how this will be implemented and executed and
so forth. So it's still still some work to be done. Sure,
I want to make sure we are able to talk

(06:57):
about symbiotic. Yeah, what is symbiotic?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Okay, So symbiotic is universal staking framework. We built the
rails to enable assets on chain that are not being utilized,
to enable them to become productive by securing or underwriting
risk on chain. And so think of like symbiotic as

(07:25):
the progression of staking into the establishment of risk transfer
markets on chain, which, like circling back to what we
were talking about before, is really a critical piece for
a capital markets ecosystem to thrive on chain, whether that's

(07:46):
DeFi or the next like iteration of DeFi. Sure, so
like kind of v one of like the staking primitive
was eth staking, like just proof.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Of steak right.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Version two restaking, which is what we are involved in,
which is taking staked capital or even unstaked capital, but
as it's on chain. Even now with bitcoin, we have
a number of vaults that have wrapped bitcoin that are
securing via staking, not just networks, but a whole range

(08:21):
of on chain activities, whether it's like fast finality, interoperability,
data availability, and then version three or what we're building
towards is now additional like financial products.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
And you mentioned wrap bitcoin, you mentioned e theorem. Are
you supporting a variety of proof of steake blockchains like
Solana and others.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
So the great thing about our infrastructure is how modular
it is and composable, like not to drop a bunch
of buzzwords, but like it actually accurately describes the symbiotic stack.
So it's really designed for any any chain, network or

(09:09):
activity that requires some sort of economic security can leverage
our plumbing to plug into economic security so long as
there is capital willing to secure that activity.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Got it. So you're very much interoperable with many different
block chains. You're kind of infrastructure for staking essentially and
giving a broader reach for ye.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's basically like proof of steak as a service in
a way that's actually interoperable. Because we see the way
that the space is evolving. Interoperability is super important. Projects
are being built in an interoperable way. Sure you know
you can stake once secure many chains. We're also we've

(10:02):
announced I think last week or maybe it was this week,
a new endeavor with chain Link and Solve. A couple
of weeks earlier was with chain Link and Lombard. And
so are users that are utilizing like the c c
IP interoperability can plug into symbiotics shared security two secure

(10:30):
like the data that's being executed and moved around there.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Oh sure, and your your infrastructure that can be used
by institutions globally if whether it be in a crypto
exchange or a black rock or things like that.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Of course can be used by It can be used
by anyone. And I think what's really interesting about having
institutions be getting to the point that they can operate
in the restaking or universe staking world is that they
bring a certain flavor of expertise that will be very

(11:08):
useful for the next generation of activities that are being
secured or underwritten via staking. So imagine collateral guarantees of
credit facilities. That there's a credit facility, if there's a

(11:30):
default on the credit, there's a guarantee or like some
people call it insurance, but really a guarantee that is
represented via a vault that has assets in it. And
so those assets get paid out a yield as part
of like the interest payments. But then if there's a
default on the credit facility, then those assets would get

(11:52):
like slashed or they wouldn't be burned, but they would
be like redistributed back to the original lender. This is
the type of thing that traditional commercial lending markets have
been engaging in for centuries, like having the concept of
like guarantees on loans.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Sure, we're just.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Like optimizing it for DeFi and a permissionless market.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
That's great. I know institutions and even look the average
show all us in hunt for yield and had to
get the most interest because banks they're not giving as
much interests anymore. And I personally steak and I earn
more interest than I do from my savings account. So
that's really great. And are you able to say what

(12:41):
type of institutions are using your service? Any names that
you can drop, It's okay.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
If not, so it's like yes and no. The reality
is our service is permissionless. Okay, so we know through
for example, one of our newer would I would to
say products, but newer types of services that are infrastructure

(13:06):
securing is called CAP and that's really we're underwriting stable
coin yield strategies and a number of their partners are
like traditional financial institutions. I think Franklin Templeton is one
of them, and so like we welcome any partner or
whether it's traditional finance, a partner of traditional finance to

(13:30):
come and build on Symbiotic. You know, right now most
of the interactions are with more DeFi native, but we're
starting to see that change, and like hopefully we'll have
some announcements soon, but I can't really share.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, well, on a note, what are some of the
things that are on your roadmap that we could potentially
expect in twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, so definitely some things to be excited about is
the transition towards additional yield. A lot of a lot
of projects that will be generating fees or like having tgs,

(14:19):
which means that if you're staking or restaking to secure
these networks, like the yield that you generate will become
more interesting. Sure, we're also really excited about this expansion
of the use cases with our tech infrastructure. So like

(14:42):
we started with restaking to secured networks and various like
blockchain activity, now it's transitioning first with cap but soon
with others to be announced to underwrite or secure financial activity.
And so so we have the tech, we have the
infrastructure to do that. We have like proof of proof

(15:06):
of concepts or like a great very successful product market
fit there with underwriting these stable coins and so that's
you know, an area that we're actively building building into.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
This may seem like a silly question, but I'm very
curious about it. So you mentioned like wrap bitcoin, stable
coins and so forth, and outside of just regular proof
of steak blockchains like Ethan Solona that where you can
earn off the network. Is does this infrastructure allow to
pretty much wrap anything like even tokenized assets and put
it to work.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, I mean, like in short, the answer is yes.
You know, we say, like you can stake almost any
asset to secure almost any network without getting into like
the technical components, which I can't I'm not the best
person to speak to about that. But really the the
the answer is more about demand and interest, like is

(16:07):
there appetite or an interest to secure a network with
like an RWA that represents ownership in a condo association?
Is there? Like it's it's really more about like the tech,
the tech can do almost anything. Like that's that's not
the the obstacle or the thing that we need to

(16:27):
stop and think about. It's really about PMF and about
finding the right like commercial sweet spot for for how
to best utilize these assets. Like an easier example with
that is even stable coins, stable coins proxy for the
US dollar. It's it's sort of it's a question of

(16:49):
like cost of capital, like can you if you can
generate whatever like money market yield is in an account
through a money market account, or even like chain, what's
the how does that compete with like the yield that
you would get by restaking a stable coin. And up
until recently, like that analysis has resulted in like stable

(17:13):
there's not like a ton of stable coins and restaking
to get yield. Okay, I think that will change, sure,
but you know, it's it's a question of economics as well.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm excited for the future
of staking. You know, at one point here in the
United States that got shut off.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
I know, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, it's been turned back on. Yeah, but what do
you think the future of staking looks like? I know
that's a very open ending question and very macro, but
you know, what let's say twenty thirty twenty thirty five,
with more people are coming on chain, how do you
think they interact with steaking?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, like this is one take, could you know, finger
to the wind, crystal ball. I don't hold me to it,
but I think like the definition of what staking means
is evolving to like really just reference the concept of
allocating something of value to a certain activity or to

(18:16):
ensure underwrite a certain activity, and then in return for
yield with the and the risk exposure is slashing. Like
I find staking, the concept of staking, the concept of slashing.
The concepts of like rewards or like they have all

(18:40):
versions in traditional markets and in like financial structures that
have been around for a long time. So I think
the future of staking is to absorb more of that
that type of activity, and so could mean more than
just securing a network and curing transactions and validating transactions.

(19:03):
It could mean underwriting as I mentioned, like credit markets,
it could mean ensuring a whole range of different types
of activities, whether it's on chain or off chain. Sure,
and so that's how I see staking evolving. And then
and of course with restaking to also secure networks and

(19:25):
like the backbone of blockchain is economic security, so staking
will always be there. It's like a question of like
how much can we optimize it, Like vanilla steaking is
like step one, right.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, yeah, I'm curious to see how it evolves, especially
when institutions coming in and then having a more global
or having more participants globally in the crypto asset class.
So it's exciting, yeah, bullish, Yeah for sure, Jillian, Thank
you so much, looking forward to the future updates around Symbiotic.
Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you
for having me this episode. It is brought to you

(20:00):
by Treasure. Treasure makes beautifully crafted hardware wallets that allow
you to easily and safely store your crypto assets. Treasure
has been in the game for a very long time,
since twenty thirteen. They were the pioneers of hardware wallets
and the seed phrase setup, and their hardware wallets are
open source. In fact, my favorite is the Treasure Save five.

(20:21):
It's a beautifully designed and easy to use hardware wallet guys,
and it's my go to And they support a variety
of coins, all your top crypto tokens, your big coins,
your x orp Ethereum, Solana, and much more and even
new coins, even black Rocks Biddle token so they support
coins on the institutional side where you have tokenization of

(20:42):
different assets and much more. And they even offer a
great service that helps you to get your treasure device
set up. You get one on one customer support from
their team, so you can check that out as well.
So once again, I'm a big fan of this hardware wallet.
So if you'd like to learn more, visit the link
in the description.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Symbiotic is Revolutionizing Crypto Staking! with Jillian Friedman

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills

All Episodes

Symbiotic is Revolutionizing Crypto Staking! with Jillian Friedman

Stuff You Should Know