Ep. 143 Is this the world's most effective role play?

When it comes to your training participants, two of the dirtiest, or perhaps scariest, words you can say during a session may be: role play. In today's podcast, John Crook, Head of Learning at Intersol Global, offers some thoughts on how to make role plays more authentic and robust.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Trainlike You listen of podcasts about all things
learning and development and bite size chunks. I'm Brian Washburn, I'm your host.
I'm also the co founder of aninstructional design company called Endurance Learning,
and today I am joined by JohnKrook, who is the head of learning
at Interestol Global. We're going totalk to him in just a minute about

(00:33):
role play scenarios and the role thatpaid actors might be able to play in
a training program. But before weget to any of that, I'm going
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(01:15):
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I'm here with John correct, thehead of learning at Interrasoll Global.
Thank you for joining us, Johnthe Pleasures Mind Brian, thank you for
helping me. I'm excited for thisconversation. We spoke a little while ago

(01:37):
and I was like, Oh,that would be really cool to bring into
a podcast, because well, I'mjust gonna let you actually kind of paint
a picture for the audience about thekind of work that you do at Interrasall
Global and more specifically, why wouldsomeone hire you to do some training for
them. Yeah. So install Globalwas formed twenty routine working with global banks

(02:02):
assisting the auditors in how best tomanage audit meetings or difficult conversations, so
how to ask difficult questions, howto obtain evidence or information as ethically as
possible. So insult Global is startoff as a training company. So we

(02:23):
trained something called investigative interviewing, whichis based in psychology and it's a way
of what is sometimes described in alot of the areas that we're working across
different sectors as soft skills, sosome of the listeners might recognize them as
soft skills how to interact with otherhuman beings. We specialize in that area

(02:46):
to obtain information in a timely manner, effectively and ethically working through those different
areas that we work in. Soyeah, so we're a small company.
We've there's about faulty five employees.So we're a small company based in the

(03:06):
UK, and we specialize in differentareas, but mainly around investigative ins viewing.
And it's interesting that you kind ofdescribe your core focus as soft skills,
right, it's talking to people,it's interviewing. It's trying to listen
for not just what the person's saying, but maybe what they're not saying,

(03:27):
and try to determine, you know, is what's happening or is what I'm
being told? Is it truthful?Is honest? And one of the things
I find so fascinating about your trainingis that in order to do this,
you bring in paid actors for certainelements of your training programs. Can you
share a little bit about what theactors bring to a training session that you

(03:50):
can't simply do through role play betweentwo training participants, or even a role
play where a participant would come upand you know, speak to you as
a facilitator. Yeah. So it'san area that we've developed in Brian and
about two years ago probably forced intous with COVID and obviously alike. I'm

(04:10):
sure a lot of a lot ofbusinesses across different areas were struggling with COVID
and how best to create a bitof a unique point for ourselves. We
felt that it would be worth exploringbringing in actors to create as live a
possible situation as we can, because, like you say, it's not the

(04:31):
skills that we teach or develop andnot simply about asking questions. He's not
simply about listening to a story,although human beings are storytellers and we will
utilize some of that as we gothrough the training. So we found that
using role play sometimes creates a situationwhere people were with another delegate either too

(04:57):
helpful or not helpful enough for Urealistic, So we brought in actors.
We were really fortunate to come acrossa young man who he's got lots of
contacts with young actors and actors.I say young, I don't meaning age,
but in experience so we've we've oneof our actors has appeared on a

(05:18):
soap op opera here in the UK, so we've been on TV. We've
had no film stars as yet,so they what they brought is a reality
to our training. So we wereable to brief them to follow a brief
getting to role effectively and play thatpart as real as possible, because we

(05:39):
certainly found that there is lots oftheory. We do have lots of theoretical
didactic sessions and lots of exploring withtabletop exercises how best to do this,
but it's such a practical skill thatwe felt that we needed to add that
extra dimension. If you like,It did cause us some issues. Got

(06:00):
to say that from a training manager'sperspective, that's caused some issues using actors.
There's a cost implication. Obviously there'slogistical issues around it. In this
type of scenario work we're chatting NoBrian on online through Zoom or something similar,
we could manage it, but actuallygoing out onto locations became more difficult.

(06:23):
So there are some downsides to it. But we have found that the
delegates themselves, that the attendees ofour courses have phone real value to having
this real person playing the part ofthe interviewee. I was going to ask
you, where is the reaction ofthe participants or the attendees when you say,

(06:44):
all right, now we're going topractice, but we're not actually going
to do role play. I mean, if somebody was to say that in
a training, I'm sure everybody.We don't have to do roleplay, but
we're bringing in actors, so we'regoing to actually stimulate the situation. What's
the difference that you found between theattendees just doing like a typical role play
where it's attendee to attendee and workingwith actors who have been kind of given

(07:11):
personas that they take on. Sowe have to be very careful from a
trainer perspective. So like yourself,Brian experienced in training, experiencing making the
safe learning environments for delha Goods andexplain you have to be really clear that
this is going to happen through thetraining, so on a joining instruction situation

(07:32):
in those initial contacts with the company. That and we mainly work with companies
or although we do have a smallamount of individuals who come through our website
to just doing individually. Mostly it'scompanies, So we have to be very
careful and explain it, and youdo get exactly like you've identified from your

(07:53):
experience, Brian. The initial youknow, well, I'm glad I don't
have to do role play because it'snot every bodies you know, everybody's thing,
although some people really do enjoy it. Then to the realization that,
oh goodness, you know, thisis another person who's going to be introduced
to I don't know, so Ihave to go through all the formal rup

(08:15):
or building getting into so that theycan demonstrate to this person that I can
be trusted and then I can anddeal with it. And some of the
some of our training machine is quitesensitive, so we deal with some sensitive
issues of misconducts in a workplace orin an establishment. So some of those
are some of the most sensitive thanothers. So sometimes it will be a

(08:37):
financial matter, sometimes it will bea more personal matter, depending on the
client, but it is it's sorefreshing to hear from you the identification of
what was the issue. I wouldsay that to anyone listening to this considering
with actors, you've got to bevery careful and really clear about the instructions
to the learners so that they canmaximize they are going to obtain from from

(09:01):
the section. And so for thosewho are listening who are thinking, man
if I had an unlimited budget,I absolutely bring actors in the programs too,
But I don't have an unlimited budget. Some left to do a roleplay.
What advice might you offer to raisetheir quality of effective role play activities?

(09:24):
Like what's your secret sauce? Whatmakes the actors so effective? And
what might people be able to doif they don't quite have the budget to
bring in actors to make their roleplaysprofective. So I'll deal with it in
two different sides that Brian. Sowith the actors, ye have got to
be really fortunate to be able toengage with something that is affordable. So

(09:46):
we over here in the UK,I'm show there's something similar. There's a
rate of which actors under their equityrules, I think, which is like
the Unione fault for actors in theUK and New Roup. Actually we haven't
used them in North America, butwe have floward actors across to a different
part of Europe to utilize their skills, so they have a rate. But

(10:07):
it's about clear instructions for the actors. So it's it's about investing your time
as the trainer to write clear rolesabout what you want them to do and
step by step as it goes through, so create the persona of the person.
So what I learned from doing thatwith actors and briefing them directly is
the confidence to directly instruct delegates andwhat you want them to do and how

(10:33):
you want them to do it,and ultimately being confident enough that if something
goes slightly wrong in the role playerto just call a time out, stop
the situation, reset everyone, makesure even if you have to take the
actor out so it can break down, can't It could be laughed, it
could be people drying up, theydon't know what to ask. So all

(10:54):
those things, I think it's theconfidence of view as the lead trainer and
recognize. Actually one of the thingsthat we talk a lot about in our
training because it's it's those soft skills, is that if you consider a position
of hierarchy, if I'm interviewing someonewho's reporting a misconducting a workplace, certainly

(11:15):
is an external person out of theworkplace or a manager, I sit in
a position of hierarchical dominance. Withthat that individual, So we talk a
lot about that and how that mightinfluence the situation. So we can utilize
that hierarchy to make sure we clearlyinstruct the person who's role playing and it's

(11:35):
not too I'm trying not to usetoo many kind of local colloquialisms here from
the UK, but wholely if thatmeans anything, right, So a bit
too not clear enough with your instructions, and that would be what I would
say in role plays that our experiencesis you've got to be really clear,

(11:56):
set some really firm guidance and rulesaround the part, and be careful about
what kind of role players you're askingthem to do. So we work,
for example, some of our workersour own sexual misconduct, and that's a
very difficult thing to ask another delegateto talk about. You've got to consider
people's lived experiences and all those areasso sensitive thoughtful control with the actors and

(12:22):
the cost perspective. We found thatby utilizing actors early career actors, they
love the experience they were able tobuild their own. They call them show
wheels here in the UK, wherewe can recall the situations and they can
use them on their show. Wheels, so they're developing their own career and

(12:43):
learning, so they get as muchout of our training as we get from
them. Really, and we utilizewe use a recording we're working partnership with
the company called in Deco. Wewere Scandinavian company who do a lot of
the recording solutions for workplace interviews orlaw enforcement interviews or anything like that.

(13:05):
So their company might be recognized bysome of people listen to this over in
the United States and they offer arecording solution on an iPhone or a tablet,
and we find that by recording thesituation, we can give that the
person self reflection learning and we havevicarious tasks for the observers. So yeah,

(13:26):
so it's demanding for you as atrainer because you've got to be on
it all the time. You're notsending people away to do spenty minute exercises
and you can just go and visitthem as they're going through it. You've
got to be really thoughtful maximize thelearning. So I feel that I'm really
fortunate as a training manager of ourcompany that we can utilize to maximize that
learning but equally have experience from acost perspective. Sometimes from clients where we

(13:54):
use other delegates to role player.And that's been my learning, is that
real clear, real play a guidancesomebody what you want people to do when
they're working with you. Yeah,I heard you've mentioned three things here.
I heard you mentioned the clear guidanceand it's interesting. One of the things
when we do roleplay will give guidanceto both parties and the role play right,
So the person who's supposed to bepracticing the skill, but also the

(14:16):
person who is kind of in thequote unquote actor role right, so they
have some clear guidance as well.And we also will sometimes say, hey,
don't actually give them this information unlessthey ask the right questions, or
don't say this unless they ask theright questions. The other two other things
I heard you mention was it's okayto stop the roleplay in the middle and

(14:41):
reset if it seems to go offthe rails, or if it's going in
the wrong direction, or if it'snot accomplishing you what needs to be accomplished,
stop it, reset it, right, That's what practice is for.
And the third thing I heard youmentioned is recording. And we've found that
by recording scenarios, the participants willtake it much more seriously, and then

(15:01):
they can actually see themselves in actionafterwards, so that any feedback that they
get, they can compare that feedbackto the video. And it's super helpful
because it's really easy to say,Okay, thank you for that feedback.
I don't think I say are somuch or I don't I don't think that
I was asking the wrong questions whatever. When you see in the video,
the video doesn't lie. So Ithink that those are kind of three big

(15:24):
takeaways that I heard you mentioned.I think it's really it's really important around
around role place. Absolutely right fromyour experience and anyone working in this area
that don't forget both parties, allthree people. If you've got three people
role playing, you know in differentareas, so maybe a note taker or

(15:46):
a minute taker is in there aswell to make it real for the learners.
Yeah, absolutely make sure that youare clear with everyone around what you
want them to do. And equallyas well, like you said, if
things go a little bit right,you might you might be stoked it up
in that role play. That isjust a real opportunity for learning objectives and

(16:07):
maximizing and we might even stop itfor something that's just really excellent work you
just want to flog up to everyone. John Crook, head of Learning Interest
Global, thank you so much forgiving us some time just to hear about
how you bring in paid actors inorder to practice some very very specific skills

(16:29):
that a typical roleplay may not actuallybe as effective in using. So John,
thank you for your time. Thankyou everyone else for listening to another
episode of Train like you listen.If you know somebody who might find today's
topic on creating realistic stimulations and roleplayscenarios to be important, go ahead and
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(16:51):
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And if you're interested in learning moreabout a broad range of learning and development
strategies, including role play and whyit might be a radioactive element, you
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(17:15):
at Amazon dot com that was writtenby yours truly. Until next time,
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