Episode 70: Sade's "Love Deluxe"

Any denier that all art is political need look no further than the smoothed-out soul slipstream of Sade, a group defined by its economics. Rare output, minimal arrangements, reserved volume, and, of course, the premium implied by “Love Deluxe”—a title derived from the idea that true love is among a precious few luxuries that can’t be bought. Our world’s clearly longing for more longing, and we discovered a truly transcendent delicacy as we unboxed Sade’s brand of desire.

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Episode Transcript

Kyle (00:00):
Today we're talking about Sade's Love Deluxe.
Or Love Premium for anadditional 2 99 a month.

Cliff (00:07):
You can buy any kind of love, but you can't get Love Deluxe, which
sounds like a thing that we're biddingat the top of this episode, but is a
real quote from an interview, and it'sprobably the least serious thing I've ever
heard come out of her particular mouth.
but, uh, is a pretty good to me, uh,intro to the unexpectedly, " in love

(00:33):
in process" I've had with this record.
another, one of the, I thought that Iknew where this sat and then the more
that I listened to it, something insideof me changed or became more like me.
I'm not sure which one.
Uh, but I found myself not onlylistening to Sade, but noticing
that I was listening to Sade andliking it about myself quite a bit.

Kyle (00:56):
Well, I love that I've had the CD in my truck since high school I
always revel that contrast a little.
you stretch me in new directionsmusically, and I, I bring you
closer to center that's the bargain.

Cliff (01:11):
I don't know whose directions you're stretching with a Sade
CD in your car in high school.

Kyle (01:18):
This is yet another episode where we're gonna try
to not make it all entendre.
We've already failed.
it's hard in 2025 not to make everyepisode political and to avoid making all
art political, but my first thought whenI read that quote that you just said it
opened a new door in the record and thenShaday as an artist for me, because I've

(01:42):
been thinking all the time because I'mforced to think all the time about the
like 2000 people, the ultra wealthy, whodictate every aspect of our lives, how
they're swag, less sexless, fucking dorks.
And that money is.
Is just an instrument thatthey think unlocks everything
in human existence to them.

(02:03):
And the one reassurance I can alwaysgive myself is that they can't buy cool.
They can't buy things that genuinelyconnect them to other people.
And so I would've never thought ofLove Deluxe as a political record,
uh, or a class consciousness record.
And I still really don't, I don't want tolike poison the beautiful vulnerability
and just the purity and the elegant,this is such an elegant record and mood.

(02:29):
So I just wanna say this thought andget it out of the way, but like, there's
an interesting dimension of Sade isfor us, or Sade is a good teacher and
I think more like specifically Sade Aduthe person than the rest of the band.
I don't, I don't wanna like applythis to all the dudes as well.
real love is the one thingthat money can't buy is such

(02:50):
a good and profound idea.
And I would like to just ground us aswe start in a, like every meme that
you've seen of sensuous delight, youknow, like the outline guy touching his
face with his fingers, or SpongeBob withheadphones in levitating into a rainbow.

(03:12):
Or just anybody doing likea sexy aunt dance in a gif.
anything that's like, dance, like noone's watching type feeling, just real.
Two glasses of red wine.
Leanne Womac, wine mom out in theopen at the Mexican restaurant.
Vibe, just the truest possible.

(03:33):
You, release your inhibitions.
Feel the rain on your skin.
Is that the second or third time in a row?
We've mentioned that on an episode.
Natasha Bedingfield.
She's everywhere.
I feel like we're on a hot streakof just reminding ourselves to touch
grass, like just another flavor of that.
everything's so fucked up and onceagain, here's music as a reminder.

(03:56):
This, is as good an example as Ithink we've had in the history of
the podcast of like, don't ignoreit as a person who, when he was much
younger, was always running aroundtelling people to stay positive, and
that felt like blissful, privilegedignorance in the face of the world.
What I love about this record is.
It carries the full weight of everythingand the sophistication of it comes

(04:20):
from, and I still choose to love anyway.
And in fact, that is the only thing to do.

Cliff (04:25):
Hell yeah.
Podcast over, I guess.

Kyle (04:29):
No, I wanna talk about this music real bad.
Ugh.
Nothing sounds like this.
Dude,

Cliff (04:35):
Normally we're putting on a play for all the people listening, where
it's like we build this big arc overto the thing you just did, and instead
we just like, yeah, no, we're there.
Let's go from here.

Kyle (04:45):
I want us to get there.
Yeah, you were like, let's drop right in.
So I was like, I want to getthere and stay there because
maybe I'm doing it for myself.
the person that like when he was16, started listening to Shaday
kind of ironically, 'cause itwas like schmaltzy, pure moods.
Whatever, you know, but also I knew thatlike older swaggy people listen to it.

(05:09):
So I was like, if I can close the gapbetween how it makes me feel right now
and how it makes people I think arecool, feel, then there's a spark there.
so anybody who can't close that gapin their mind or they watch shit on
TikTok with a Sade audio and it feelsa little silly or schmaltzy or like
something your mom and dad danceto in the kitchen, all that's real.

(05:31):
And I'm here for you and with you on that.
But I'm also telling you, likethe way with Funkadelic, we were
like, you're going to be able totouch the dark matter directly.
You know, you're gonna holdthe lightning in your hand.
This is whatever.
The opposite element in the yin yang is.
This is the white light thatyou can walk into and bathe in.

Cliff (05:52):
Can I tell you the stupidest thought I had that aligns
directly with what you are saying?

Kyle (05:56):
Fucking always Baby

Cliff (05:58):
I, yes.
We, this is another record on thejourney of Cliff's Body moves in ways
he didn't expect when he allows himself.
and.

Kyle (06:07):
Cliff's Body Podcast over.

Cliff (06:11):
And well, well as a person who does not experience the excitement
of music through, like, I reallyneed to move all my limbs right
now.
Okay.
Well, we've talked some in thepast about, uh, the unconventional
combinations of like outdoor sports,and it puts my body in a place where it
starts to interpret things in different
ways.
And Sure.
If anyone knew, and maybe they didas I rode by, I'm like, is that

(06:34):
homie listening to Sade right now?
as he careens at 30 miles anhour down the side of a mountain.
And yes, first of all.
Not only for the exercise of thispodcast, but because once again,
it unlocked some magical thing.
But, okay.
My stupidest thought, combination ofbeing fully blissed out, listening
to this record, enjoying myselfoutside, beautiful everything.

(06:58):
I'm alone with my thoughts and probablysome amount of being Colorado stoned
shore, but the, I start laughing outof absolutely nowhere because all
at once the thought occurs to me.
Well, there's one detail you probablyhaven't guessed yet, but I start
laughing, thinking about the Andre 3000merch, and I think to myself, don't

(07:20):
just listen to Sade man, listen to Sade,and like it was the stupidest thing,
and then I cannot leave it because it'sactually like a thing that's helping me,

Kyle (07:32):
You see it flash subliminally in your mind?
The the highlighter yellowshirt with just her face?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just like boom.
Listen to show.
Yes.
Yes.
Like you're receiving a messagefrom on high A little bit.
Yeah.
You were one with the new Blue sun.

Cliff (07:48):
and especially that the reason that made me laugh so much is 'cause like
we, we've seen that shirt a bunch, right?
That became like the thing to wearin Atlanta, especially for a year.
I received it, it maybe in the way itwas intended, which was just like kind
of a lighthearted joke in general, right?
Like, I am Andre 3000 making a band.

(08:10):
I don't really want to be here.
Totally.
And I don't want your money.
So like, this is sort of whatit's all about anyway, right?
And like, cool, I get it on that level.
And that was fun to me for a while.
And it was like, it's like it tookmy brain getting to its simplest
place and most open place to go.
okay.
But maybe those three words like meansomething very important to you and maybe

(08:32):
if you let it, it's gonna let you, changeyour perspective on this record entirely.
Because she, and they collectivelyas an artist are doing the thing
that we talk about so much.
They're doing subversion andthey're doing it by playing you
smooth jazz that feels sexy, andthen they play shit like a tattoo.

(08:57):
And if you didn't lock into it,it just sounds like something
that belongs on the record.
And then if you lock into it.
You are maybe weeping, I mean there'sjust like a fundamentally different set
of emotions that you get to experiencethrough most, but not all of these

(09:17):
songs, which I think is what makes itso wild to have noticed that shift.
It's like it's not every song is somesecret inverted underbelly, only some
of them, and they're kind of like hidingin the middle of the record and like To
have discovered that some early ninetiesBritish casual jazz ass thing is worth

(09:40):
the level of sifting and sorting that wetalk about doing with other records is
like that kept occurring to me over andover again until, and I kind of landed
in this place that I shared with you.
But, it confused me until I listenedto it as a funk record with a
different genre on top of it.

(10:01):
And then I got it.
Then it connected to like, freeyour mind and your ass will follow.
Or the opposite.
There we go.
and something about there helpedit make sense to me in a way that
made this different fundamentallyfrom, it's neither an overly serious
political record, nor though is it.

(10:23):
It's not like Barry Manalow trying tomake you sexy feeling music, you know?

Kyle (10:28):
Right.
I think what has sort of emerged veryrecently for me as somebody who's like
the idea of Sade, probably more than the,the real content of Sade for a long time.
You know, I've always beenlike, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm a shot a fan.
there's a deeply spiritual component.
To it all.
I think the smoothness of it belies theidea that like, it's easy, it's just,

(10:54):
it goes down real smooth and it does,you can enjoy it like I have on that
level for 20 years and it just works.
but there is sort of a sublimefrequency that it's operating on.
and the Andre 3000 thing resonatesprofoundly with me 'cause you know,

(11:16):
better than anyone, that, you know,I was like kind of in a mental health
funk when New Blue Sun came along.
And that's the closest I've evergotten to following a jam band on tour.
'cause I saw him in four differentplaces and it was a totally
different experience every time.
And it was like.
What my consciousnessneeded at the moment.
But our buddy Colin and I went andsaw the very first new Blue Sun show,

(11:40):
and it was like a big secret andnobody knew what it was gonna be.
And there were no cell phones.
And, it was like pure searching, you know,it could have been a whole production, but
it was like a dude fumbling around withhis flute collection laid out on a rug in
a little black box theater in Brooklyn.
And it was the most honest thing,as a guy raised on punk, it was like

(12:01):
the most honest thing I'd ever seen.
And you walk in and the merch was set upright there as you're filing in, and a
bright yellow shirt says, listen to Sade.
And it just you wanna talk aboutsubversive, I loved the idea that
it was just like an advertisementfor, it's, it's so tuned Dig.
It's a bright yellow, it's a golden yellowshirt and it's listened to another artist.

(12:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.

Cliff (12:29):
that's actually a really good idea.
I'm just gonna pin that.
Keep.

Kyle (12:32):
So I was like, well, I need, I need to have that.
'cause I don't know if anyone'sever going to see these shows.
I, there was no real tour at that point.
So I was like, I need to remember thatI was here, but I really love what you
just cracked open for me, which is,it's it, like with Gang of four, we

(12:52):
talked about how it was, the density ofcritical theory writers and philosophers.
You gotta crack open the, theRussian nesting doll of this idea.
Building on this idea, buildingon this idea, sort of in the
inverse, like pointing back tohomage type spiritualist, right?
it's Andre 3000 telling youto go study the works of

(13:14):
Thich Han or somebody, go sit.
In your personal Walden or whatever,if you like how new Blue Sun makes you
feel, go sit in the woods, cross-leggedfor a day or something, write a poem.
Read some e Cummings.
so I don't want to attach the weightof political heaviness, but similarly,
I don't want to attach the weightof spiritual heaviness, but like,

(13:36):
I don't know, there's somethingthat Sade kind of naturally does, I
think makes you feel comfortable andsafe, going deep within yourself.
There is a real safety in the music.
I think a lot of that comes from thevulnerability, not only of the music,
the lyrics, but also in the sound.
I think the, the vulnerabilityof the sound and the space of

(13:57):
the band perfectly arranged.
The dynamics creates a. Safety.
I think it works as intimate musicbecause it is like, it is a total safety.
Like you feel like you cantrust them and what's happening.
even if you're a little inclinedto be like, all right, this
is, you know, mom and dad shit.
like it comes from a safety place.

(14:17):
It's really interesting to me.

Cliff (14:19):
There are some tight moms and dads, so that could be okay.

Kyle (14:22):
I'd like to think I'm one.
Yeah.
I'm a de, I'm a decently cool one.
I think, God forbid my daughter getsolder and unearth these recordings,

Cliff (14:33):
it will happen at the most embarrassing possible moment, so I cannot
wait and I will be there to support it.

Kyle (14:40):
At least she'll know.
My heart was always in a good place.
I cared a lot.

Cliff (14:44):
I didn't necessarily expect this to be such a good contrast then
to the inaccessibility we were tryingto discuss with Charles Mingus,
but now that I think about it.
Pretty good comparison actually,because what you're describing to
me at least is the sensation youget from jazz that is accessible.
It is a thing you understand andcan follow without being like super

(15:10):
locked into the music itself or, uh,otherwise like super musically inclined.

Kyle (15:15):
whoa.

Cliff (15:15):
like it's not,

Kyle (15:17):
The, the, cognitive dissonance of this has all the
ingredients of this should feel andaccessible, but it really doesn't.
So maybe that's a little silly.
that's really interesting, man.

Cliff (15:28):
Yeah, I mean even, even just kind of comparing the first one minute
of both of these albums, you will getthe sensation you just described, the
positive and negative feelings of it.
I am welcome here.
I am not welcome here.

Kyle (15:43):
Charles Manus is Sade.
Walk into a bar, sade's like,all right, this was a mistake.

Cliff (15:51):
My poor brain is trying to lay them on top of each other now.
And that is wild.

Kyle (15:57):
Sade leaves the house for the first time in a year, and then Charles
Manus is there and corners her, andshe's like, my God, what have I done?

Cliff (16:04):
he's like, I've played all of your songs in reverse
upside down in this 22nd clip.
Are you ready?
It's very creative.

Kyle (16:11):
Kind of an ass isn't.

Cliff (16:13):
but yeah, I think this is a more helpful way of talking about
smooth jazz, whatever smooth r and b.Fucking weather channel jazz type stuff.
Yeah, it has a reputation andmaybe Kenny G deserves some of it.
Sure.
But like, not all smooth jazzis simplistic or bad jazz.

(16:35):
Right.

Kyle (16:37):
I am just picturing you, you have to pitch to jazz dispensary, a
not all smooth jazz bumper sticker.

Cliff (16:47):
Keep honking.
I'm listening to smoothjazz, but it's good.
Yeah.

Kyle (16:51):
Keep on, I have my Bluetooth hooked up and I'm watching a
YouTube loop of the Weather channel.
Can I just say, when you were sayingthat shit about listening to Sade while
mountain biking out in Colorado, likedoing outside sports, there is such a
joy and a comfort in the smooth jazzof not only the Weather channel, but

(17:11):
I specifically thought of things likewave race and the fact that the aquatic
ambience audio from Mario is literallya trending audio for nostalgia tiktoks.
So that specific flavor of things,it just, clicked into all of that
for me because there's, we've seenit in ways, good and bad the past

(17:36):
half decade that the, the bliss ofnostalgia is a safety and a comfort.
But all that to say, I like thewave Race 64 style imagery of you
out on a 64 bit mountain bike.
jamming out to weather channeljazz with your pit vipers
on, just hell yeah, brother.

Cliff (17:56):
But also just to get the full picture, right.
I need to just try to imagineme, you're standing at the
bottom of a pretty big mountain.
You see me at the top.
I'm about to start riding down.
Okay.
I'm, it's si, it's silent.
You can tell I'm maybegrooving, but it's silent.
And then about a minute and a halfin, you just hear me do the harmony
to no ordinary love at the top ofmy voice and just like I have been.

(18:22):
man, this is a real littlesecret about myself.
I guess I picked up the secret of.
You can sing while you snowboard orwhatever if you want to, because like
the way that the outdoor works and speed,it's like no one can really hear you.
as long as you're not riding superclose behind besides somebody, no
one can hear what you're doing.
So it's just like a fun thing to do.
I have now crossed the Rubiconinto, I don't give a fuck if you

(18:46):
hear me singing Sade on my bicycle.
I don't care.
This is who I am.
I'm happy with who I am.
but it, it really got towhere it was cracking me up.
'cause like I'd hit, you know, thereare, there are real moments throughout
this album especially, and it justlike actually I'll go ahead and
mention especially that first bit onNo Ordinary Love, like, first of all,
an incredible song period, full stop.

(19:10):
But the way that you know what the hookof that song is, even when you haven't
heard it before and it makes you wait.
For like an extra
loop.

Kyle (19:21):
time.

Cliff (19:22):
Oh, it pulls on you until you are desperate for that hook to come in.
And like, it's those little bits like thatthat we, often talk about, not necessarily
knowing whether an artist means to doa thing like that intentionally, or
whether they're just like locked inthe right way and it ends up that way.
But it feels clearly intentionalhere in the sense that, and I'm sure

(19:47):
we'll talk about this more, right?
Their intentionally simplistic approachto writing and recording this music
in the particular approaches thatthey took, they convinced me that.
What decisions were made on this recordwere made with full intention all
the way through, because there are alimited number of choices that they made

(20:08):
here to me, like musically speaking.
and all of them feel so honed and perfect.
I'm sure part of that was not only like,we'll talk about how they recorded it,
but also, you know, as opposed to a lot ofalbums we talk about, which end up being
like a big buildup and then they recordit really quickly and then they're done.
This one had more time to bake in thestudio, and I think that maybe played out

(20:28):
in the exactness of all of these songs.
Mm-hmm.

Kyle (20:31):
Yeah, they chipped away at it.
yeah, yeah.
Which is not, I would saymy preferred approach.
If I do some real quick napkin mathon the records that I really like and
what I know about how they got made,normally what I like is a very primal
stamp out a photograph of yourself.
You know, do a, do areal quick photo booth.
Thing of your face of that moment in time.

(20:53):
the slow burn stuff tends to be like,I always think about the Dewey Cox
making the, Graceland album wherehe just like keeps adding layers
and like more monkeys, less monkeys,more tribal drums, less tribal drum.
You know, like I'm a bigbeliever that it's like very
easy to start over painting.
it rarely works, butproof's in the pudding Here.

(21:14):
Take all the time.
You need Shaday.
What, six albums in four decades?
Whatever.
Man, it's all great.
I'll take it.

Cliff (21:21):
That space between albums was one, just like little adjacent bit
of trivia about Sade that I enjoyedimmensely because she, I guess,
has the kind of vocal front of thisgroup, she never breaks character
in the sense of, Hey, why did ittake you so long to make this music?
Because I don't fucking make musicto make money or to make you happy.

(21:44):
That's why uh, just every timejust be because I had a child it.

Kyle (21:49):
She's got a real cliff ass way about her with that type stuff.
What do you mean?
Why?
Why would

Cliff (21:55):
Right.
Why did you decide that?
Because I already decided it.
Next question.
Yeah.

Kyle (22:01):
Yeah.
I'm already bored of this conversation.
You'll get another onewhen you get another one.
Jesus Christ

Cliff (22:08):
See, yes.

Kyle (22:10):
Don't, wasn't the last one enough.
Like it'll last man shelf stable.
This music

Cliff (22:17):
To that end, I am trying to make sure we used to kind of come
right out with like, let's giveyou kind of external accolades of
music and then we'll convince you.
Uh, over, over time our conversationshave shifted into, Hmm, that's
actually less important.
We want to convince you in a more funway and we can start wherever we want to.
That said, like, when we do haveimportant ones to bring up, I think

(22:40):
it's worth making sure we at leastmake a quick pit stop at that.
'cause Sade as an artist.
I had quite a bit of accolade ingeneral, but this particular record
too, like we don't need to make thisdebate happen on this podcast one way
or the other, but this is arguablynot necessarily the best shot a album.
It could be maybe, but like, this isn'tlike the pinnacle of the career and then

(23:03):
everything else is sort of a supportingact the way it can be sometimes.

Kyle (23:07):
right.

Cliff (23:08):
and so I think that's important because there's a lot of space
between releases, which means thereis a lot of music to consume, but
it, you can potentially digest itdifferently than artists who are doing
records that twice that clip, right?
Like the, your interaction withgenres are fundamentally different

(23:29):
when you have like five-ish year gapsbetween the things that you're doing.
anyway, so all that preamble to say, Firstof all, no ordinary love, which we already
talked about, like one in 94 Grammy,which I also did because I was a child.
I did not remember that.
This one got most of itspopularity from indecent proposal.

(23:50):
a movie that

Kyle (23:51):
I did not remember that either.
Wow.

Cliff (23:53):
things that were happening culturally, like right at the beginning
of our consciousness and awareness.
so yeah, so that's not where I found outabout it personally because I was seven,

Kyle (24:03):
92 you or no?
94. You weren't, you weren't rocking it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For first grade, what was thefirst R-rated movie you watched?
Do you remember?

Cliff (24:12):
apocalypse.
Is that right?
The one with the asteroids?

Kyle (24:16):
Armageddon was
R-rated.

Cliff (24:17):
thank you.
Yes.
Maybe that was PG 13.
Wow.
You can tell I reallyworked my way up slowly.
If I'm confusing R and PG13 as a kid, I'm not sure.
I'll have to think about this.

Kyle (24:28):
Mine was face off and Con air.

Cliff (24:32):
Yeah, Coner was an early one for me too.
Nicholas Cage.
Speaking of accessibility in a genre,Nicholas Cage is a very good invitation
into, the more fucked up of themovies than you would normally want to
watch.
I was dragged to a horror movie not toomany years ago just because he was in it.
I did not enjoy it, but he was in it.

Kyle (24:50):
Mandy,

Cliff (24:51):
Yes,

Kyle (24:52):
my man,

Cliff (24:54):
it was good and I didn't enjoy it.
That is

Kyle (24:56):
all ju just Shaday and Mandy.
Two super romantic things.
All about love.
Love is the answer.

Cliff (25:03):
so we got a Grammy for that song, but also like this
album, four times Platinum.
And.
They

Kyle (25:09):
Number three on the billboard 200, a consciousness cracking thing.
And in the two hundreds on theRolling Stone 500, which, you know,
who gives a fuck, but it's something.

Cliff (25:22):
yes.
But also like WI mean, many ofthe artists we talk about have
some sense of internationalaccolade, but Sade, by virtue of.
Being British probably centered themin a way that also extended their
popularity probably in different ways.
So not only were all those thingstrue about American sales, uh,

(25:45):
and it was popular in Britain andall that, but Platinum and Canada,
France, Japan, and Germany as well.
So well known, well appreciated.
and arguably at the time, like a realcultural moment coming out of, speaking
of nostalgia, there was sort of likea knock on movement to jazz nostalgia
from the mid eighties in Britain,which this record sort of represented.

(26:11):
And then, speaking of takingbig swings here, like one
thing we also mentioned was.
Even though so much of what we're talkingabout here are effectively jazz elements
presented, smoothly and pleasantly.
The sort of downstream impact of a lotof this music was actually all the quiet
storm and neo soul and r and b stuff.

(26:34):
So like this energetically andculturally pushed things and less so
in a sense musically, which I think islike a really cool thing to point out.
Like that's not usually the trajectorythat things will always follow.
And in this case, like you cansort of see the reverberations of
this band more so than here is aband that sounds like Shaday now,

Kyle (26:57):
I would like to believe, I choose to believe that a lot of people
probably sat in the studio and triedto one of one sound like this band.
And then they were like, holy shit,we sound exactly like this band
that only sounds like themselves.
How can we get to this vibe?

(27:18):
How can we back our way into this vibe?
you can't facsimile the Sadesound at all ' cause it like.
To this day, I don't thinkanything sounds like it.
There are a lot of moments on thisrecord where I hear things and I know
we'll, we'll talk about that at the end,but it's like, oh, she's such a clear
influence on so many things, but nobody'stouching those key sounds or the depth

(27:44):
of the mix or the sort of, lull, youknow, the like out on the ocean, sort of
light, rhythmic, bounce, sort of the antican, like if can made an ambient thing.
Closest thing, I guess would belike future days can, absolutely.
Nothing sounds like this.

Cliff (28:02):
and if you think that what was just said is not like literally true, go
listen to some of these songs and noticehow they're basically just using like the
default Casio keyboard sounds and theystill make songs that sound singular.
Wild, wild stuff.
To that end, I think one importantbit worth drawing out here that maybe,

(28:23):
and this is sort of a guess, but maybedraws out this, like how did they do
less better and create a casual vibetype thing while also being so precise.
Two things seem to change with this recordin particular about the recording process.
first of all, they, they did this overlike a four month period physically
making the album, uh, and did it in abunch of different locations in 1992.

Kyle (28:46):
Four, correct.
The Hit Factory in New York.
LA Studio, a London studio.

Cliff (28:53):
Condor in Venice Ridge Farm in Surrey, England, the hit
factory in New York, like youmentioned in image recording in la

Kyle (29:00):
Venice, man.
I bet that sucked.

Cliff (29:04):
Yeah, I was just thinking that is, that's such a terrible sentence.
Wow.
You had to record across thesemultiple locations, and I'm sure
everyone hated that you were there.
Like what a cool moment for sure.
so the, the band members come back,this is after a. Four year break that
they'd taken after touring to supportStronger than Pride, which came out in 88.

(29:27):
So they're already doing a prettyintentional, like almost mindfulness
level band, mental health thing.
and they come back together torecord this over those four months.
They do two things differently.
One is they decide not tobring in an external producer.
So this is self-produced,but with a familiar engineer.

(29:50):
So, over the course of thispodcast, we've told a lot of stories
that sort of are this, right?
there is a moment when an, a lot ofartists are reaching a place where they
go, that producer used to pull me in adirection and now I'm in a place where
I'm pulling production and I like, Ineed to be so on top of this that we
take a different approach entirely.
So.

(30:10):
Lot of self-direction with familiarengineering in beautiful places over
a long period of time with peoplewho know and trust each other and
who have taken their own breaks tocalm down and get energized and all
this stuff coming back together.
So they're in charge of a lot of it.
And secondly, uh, apparently atleast most if not all of this was

(30:33):
recorded without live drumming.
So I personally, maybe I'm puttingtoo much weight on that particular
bit, but I have a hard time imaginingthat that didn't create some of the
vibe that we are like pointing atin this music where it can feel.
Like it moves so much.

(30:55):
the fact that they ostensibly would'veput these things together prior
to applying the rhythm to it meansthat they would've wanted to fill
out those sounds and then use therhythm to do another thing with it.
And like, I think, I would imaginethat approaching it from that angle
is probably what allowed them toopen up and create such space with

(31:17):
otherwise pretty concise music.
Like I know No, or OrdinaryLove is a pretty long song,
which is itself super cool.
But this whole record'svery concise to the point.
and I think those two things happening atthe same time, I can only guess that some
of those change factors help produce it.
'cause that's a huge shift.

Kyle (31:36):
I mean, if you are a a person of a rock and roll orientation where
everything starts with the rhythm,the beat, it's almost hard to fathom.
How does a song.
Move what are parts without, thisthing has this rhythm and then you
switch to this thing, it's just a riffor a sound is just part of an idea.

(31:57):
I thought a lot when I was drivingaround listening to the record
about how like tone, you know, likeguitar tone or whatever, and texture
exists on a continuum together.
And I, I would've said that they wereanalogous, they were words for slightly
different variations on the same thing.
But I, and it's probablynot the right way.

(32:19):
It's probably not the right binary.
but there's an idea in there thatI've been thinking about a lot with
the sounds on this record where likea tone is, it's got some attack.
it's present.
it's a note with a shapetrying to do a thing.
And then a, a texture ismore of a. A feel, it doesn't

(32:40):
present itself all the way.
And there's so much of the ladderhere, where like nothing gets all
the way to a fully formed flavor.
You know, there's, there's little keyboardflickers or there's a saxophone that sits
back in the mix a little on this one.
Or when there is drumprogramming, it's pretty flat.

(33:04):
Like maybe if I have one beef withthe whole thing is that maybe it's
arguably a little too flat, but that'sjust my probably hip hop love bias.
And there is a little bit of likeproto hip hop type vibe on this.
But I also, as soon as I have thatthought, I'm like, well, the bass guitar
or the bass notes are occupying that mix.

(33:26):
The nost part of thewhole mix is the bass.
For sure very base forwardin a reggae kind of way.
so think thinking about like how,
how much can you chew on a sound?
how present and shaped is it versuslike a thing stacked in space.
Like when you're, uh, when you're in aPowerPoint and it does the thing where

(33:47):
it like goes 45 degrees on you and youcan pull things forward or backwards.
I really get that feel visually when I'mlocking in to the instrumentation here.
I wanna know your thoughts on, I'd liketo get into the cold listen bit of things
like what jumps out at you initially,where would you start with this?

(34:07):
You've already talked abouthow no ordinary love right
from the rip pulls you in.
But the Mingus thing that you broughtup last time of like listen to it
very loud is still top of mind for me.
So talk about cold, listen and thentell me, because I'm curious ' cause
I have a point of view, what volumedo you most commonly listen to This?
At

Cliff (34:28):
You've prompted me in one way, you know, and one way you
don't know, so this could be fun.

Kyle (34:32):
Neat!

Cliff (34:33):
My cold listen experience this time.
I will answer your question, buthad less sort of to do with the
volume experience of it, and moreto do with my mental engagement.
I listened again the first time,but with that old brain that
me and you sort of talked aboutwith the like, yeah, I like this.
I know that I like
this.

(34:53):
And I listened to it andI went, yeah, I like this.

Kyle (34:56):
Check.

Cliff (34:56):
Yeah.
It was only the second time where Icaught myself to the degree that I started
laughing out loud because I realized,oh, well, I'm in the habit of never
listening to what anyone says on a recordat all, and all of a sudden feel no pain.
So no ordinary love is just, itis, well, what it is, like, I'm

(35:18):
not saying that to oversimplify it.
I'm just saying, uh, cold, warm,listen to me, that's a gift that
keeps on giving, regardless,just an incredible album opener.
But song number two.
Oh, oh.
We, oh, everyone is gettinglaid off, aren't they?
Okay.

Kyle (35:38):
Yeah, it's a little too right now, isn't it?

Cliff (35:40):
y I have a word to say about the song.
It can happen now or later, butit's happening in this podcast.
But
regardless, well,

Kyle (35:48):
Start it now.
Do it live.

Cliff (35:50):
I was obviously immediately struck not just by it's not like the
lyrics to feel no pain are so complex.
Like, I had to thinkthrough it to understand it.
It was instead two things, it was thelike, which we just laughed about.
It was sort of the brutalityof how prescient it still is.

(36:14):
but secondly.
The, and this is a thing Ithink I'm putting on it, not
a thing that was intended, butit still jives in that moment.
I felt very aware of how normal it isfor us to put that sort of conversation.
Kind of under the covers,we got a life to live.
I gotta stay happy.

(36:35):
This stuff is happening.
We know that it's happening,but it's sort of over there.
It's in the song.
This song is bouncy.
It has a different vibe than that.
so I'm gonna ride the vibe and I'mgonna leave the words over here.
And there's nothing fundamentallywrong with what I'm describing, but
it was sort of the, that combo oflike, this is still true for us.

(36:58):
Even though this is a record that waswritten in the nineties, which even as
children in the nineties, we've talkedabout this before, like the sensation
was America is over the hump of solvingso many of its problems that we should
become aware of the larger global problemsthat we can contribute to solving now.
Whereas now we look 30 years down theroad and actually it turns out we were

(37:20):
rotting from the inside the entire time.
And like that.
Precision in the moment being

Kyle (37:27):
And doing and doing liquor store robberies all over the world
in order to stay, stay liquid.

Cliff (37:34):
Yes.
And that sharpness hit me really hard.
And then, I tried to applywhat I had laughed about before.
If I'll listen to Sade,what does this mean?
And I had a sincerely profoundkind of experience with this song.
This like overly simple song.

Kyle (37:54):
That, that, by the way, musically feels a little silly

Cliff (37:58):
yes,

Kyle (37:59):
Listen, it's like,

Cliff (38:00):
yes.

Kyle (38:01):
am gold reggae type, whatever.
And what grounded it forme was Oumou Sangare.
Oh, this is a, grio telling a story.
Type of moment.
This is a wise person painting a picturefor us in the simplest terms possible.

(38:21):
And doing it in a beautifulway, like tackling something
ugly with beauty so that we cansee that contrast creates hope.
Right there.
There's an underlying hope in it.
Uh, we don't want people to have tosing the blues, teach them to strive.
I, I just, I love the hopeas a strategy bit of it.

(38:43):
And so going from no ordinary love tothat for a while I was like, man, I,
I don't know that I fuck with this.
but then I started to really like it.
and it was nice that like, themusic keeps you from being too down
about the subject matter, but itkeeps you thinking about it too.
It doesn't, it's not likewe're in a recession.

(39:04):
Go dance like Kesha, you know?
you're present with it, but you aremore likely to wanna engage because
of the overall feel of it all.

Cliff (39:13):
Yeah, and that that is the unexpected dimension of the record.
To me, it's like that, thatcombination of feelings.
Is unexpected.
It's not musical surprise here,and it's not even lyrical surprise.
It is like the specific combinationand deployment of those two things.
And to your point, like the way thatthe music sounds silly over the subject

(39:35):
matter is I literally could not tell youare they winking into the camera or not.
It like, is this just a plain, simplesong and this is the way it turned out?
Or did they make a plain, simplesong on purpose to make a statement?
I actually have no idea.
And it's I don't feel the need tofigure it out, but specifically then

(39:56):
when I engage with it that way, andto what you just called out in the
chorus, like helping people, right,help them to strive, help them to move
on, help them to have some future.
it was sort of like at first,again, it felt surface and silly.
Hey, people are poor.
You should help.
Okay, thank you.
Yes, I get it.
the Somalian woman's like,life hurts, like new shoes.

(40:19):
Like I understand.
I get it.
but then it was, wait a minute, whydid they say listen to the blues?
And then that like kicked off a thingfor me where, I don't think I'm imbuing
it with too much extra, but I feelin this moment comfortable saying,
we've talked a lot about the blues.
We are not experts or likeprofessional historians.

(40:40):
but we're pretty well-versedin this and what it means.

Kyle (40:43):
I think being a lifelong enthusiast, grandfather, as I said, growing
up in the birthplace of the blues.

Cliff (40:50):
I have listened to Sun House enough times to be in this club.

Kyle (40:53):
Yeah.
Everything I ever listened togrowing up was directly informed by
it.
So there is that little bit.

Cliff (41:00):
So in our, you know, tens of hours of discussion, you, I'm
sure can hear about this from us.
Like a, a lot of what we come tounderstand about the blues is like you,
you engage with it at another level.
'cause at the surface of it, there are.
Simple chords and open est stringedguitars and sloppy slide guitars and

(41:22):
people singing stupid stories honestly,that like are overly simplistic and
you know, sometimes they're likeheavily misogynistic and like there're,
there's these sort of like simplisticproblems that are all involved with it.
But the thing is that looking under it iswhere you discover all of what's inside of

(41:42):
there is like a people and a history andstruggle and success and terror and horror
and motivation and there's so much packedinto the little bit of it that you have to
engage with it to sort of understand it.
And I think when it hit me that maybethis meant something specifically

(42:04):
the line, like don't let themstay home and listen to the blues.
That clicked into 2025for me, first of all.
Okay, now we're, nowwe've gotten to the word.
Thank you for the preamble.
there are a lot of people outthere without jobs right now.
I know that we are sort of, we in aroyal sense are in an unexpected amount

(42:25):
of mounting propaganda that's makingyou feel in different ways about how
many people are and aren't withoutjobs and how hard it is in a place.
And like that's not even limited tojust the current Republican government.
The governments do a pretty goodjob of telling you that what you're
looking at is not actually happening.
Don't worry if someone lost their job.

(42:46):
It's easy for them to find one.
We know though that that's not true.
We know that that's not real and weknow that a lot of people have lost
their jobs and are having a lot oftrouble finding jobs and that a lot
of those people, and I'm saying like.
I am positive that me and you,Kyle, literally both know people.
I am positive that everyone listeningknows someone, like it's pervasive.

(43:10):
And it begins to stretch into I mean,when someone goes 6, 12, 18 months as
a skilled professional without beingable to find a job, in our culture,
like this is, that's death man.
That is some of the hardest stuffpossible to have to deal with,
especially if, if you feel that someonerelies on you for your income, once

(43:34):
that settles and you start to feellike you can't get out of that trap,
that is a fundamentally differentplace for people to get stuck in.
And to me, walking the lines of thislyric and thinking about what's our
modern version of this, you know, ina realistic sense and realizing like.
30 years ago, people didn't havethe little boxes that changed our

(43:57):
brains that we look at all day.
And now the kind of version ofthis is just like you can just
sit at home on your phone all day.
I certainly don't mean for this to besome like overly square put down your
phone moment, but I do mean it like, ifyou know someone who is in that difficult
place in life and they are strugglingto like click into that next place of

(44:22):
being able to participate in the economyand like do the things that we were
taught we were supposed to do every day.
I think that's an impossible situationto deal with well, in general.
But the one thing you've got to dois keep people from going so far
down that hole that our brains cango down now that you can't come
back out and see I'm a human being.

(44:43):
I am worth things.
This technology is fucking stupid.
I am worth a thing.
I can do this.
I will find a job eventually, or I willfind a way to survive or something.
And like that little device that weall learn to have to me Represents
the dark side of the blues.
That feeling that youcan say, I live here now.

(45:04):
I will not be leaving thisdepression like I exist here.
This is my identity.
And now I will use it to say, my lifeis hard because this is who I am.
that is the place wecan't let people get to.
And the fact that this whole thoughtof bullshit that I've been on for
the last five minutes came out oflistening to a Sha Day song while I

(45:24):
was outside casually is the point.
this took me to totallydifferent places when I let me,
or when, when I allowed it to.
And this was just like the foremostexample to me that like lit me
on fire in the middle of nowhere.
'cause I'm listening to a song from1992 that's not even about right now.
And I don't know, I just, uh.

(45:45):
On top of feeling like I wanted tosay a thing to anyone who listens
to us that came out of this.
Yes.
It also was just another one of thosemoments that we talk about where I'm
fully overwhelmed by the magic of music.

Kyle (45:57):
Every time I. Read or hear someone do the, it's the dam,
it's those damn phones routine.
I'm always like, uh, butthen I know it's right.
As much as we've been enrichedby all the things, it's given us
access to all the unknown unknowns.
It's illuminated for us.

(46:20):
It can make the good stuff lotsbetter, but it damn sure doesn't
make any of the bad stuff better.
And because of the design of the hardware,and especially all the software in it
all the systems in the little box, it'sdesigned to trap you in those holes.

(46:40):
and as humans, our physiologycan't resist those traps.
I mean, you work in this world every dayand you talk about the philosophy and
ethics of it with people in your field.
So I know, I know you live it, like Ilive climate and the planet type stuff.
And it, you see it in every,atom of your existence.

(47:04):
it's radicalizing, but it is, it gives methat like Rick and Morty type of comfort.
That's actually not a comfort at all.
It's only a comfort 'cause it's thetruth that that thing that we're
experiencing right now that's sobrutal has actually always been there.
that doesn't make it better atall, but it just makes it real and

(47:25):
grounded and like, none of this.
I agree with you.
None of this is a direction thatI anticipated going when we.
Certainly when we like pickedout Shaday on the calendar.
but that's probably what makes it, one ofthe, one of the more beautiful things that
we've covered, period, is love and painaren't just flip sides of the same coin.

(47:50):
they're like the twohalves of yin and yang.
And the older I get, you know, when Iwas younger there's the debate about can
artists create without suffering, like asuffering, a prerequisite for good art?
That's the thesis of the TeddyPerkins episode in Atlanta.
And it's been kind of atheme of this podcast.

(48:11):
The older I get, the moreI'm like, unfortunately I
don't know that, that it can.
There's something like a brain receptoror a cosmic energy thing or some
combination of all of those elements.
But they're all the same feelingwith slightly different flavor.

(48:32):
So that's why Nirvana at the endof the journey is not happiness.
It's not the plus side of thebattery, it's the absence of
any of those things because theyare in fact all the same thing.
So here we are back at listento Shaday on a yellow shirt,
The tao of Sade Adu.

(48:52):
It really is that deep, for everybodyhaving that debate raging on in
the social media wasteland in 2025.
Yes, you illiterate fucks.
It really is all that deep.

Cliff (49:03):
This feelings conversation is also timely because literally today I had a
therapy session and my therapist, as theydo, will occasionally go, Hmm, okay, it's
time to bring out the feelings wheel soyou can tell me what you really feel.
And we talk today about how, um,uh, after my usual, uh, preamble
about all of it, I was just like,is there a way that I could stand on

(49:26):
the line between sad and mad though?
Because I, I actually don'texperience them as one or the other.
For the most part.
I sort of experienced this mixtureof those two things as an intensity.
And then what I do with it fromthere is how I feel about it.

Kyle (49:44):
Oh, the next note is what defines the note.
Yeah.

Cliff (49:48):
Oh no.
I have Miles Davis to my emotional life,

Kyle (49:53):
Well, I mean the, the feelings wheel could be the Coltrane love supreme
draw, you know, religious drawing thing.
The, the

Cliff (50:01):
the circle of his Yeah,

Kyle (50:03):
The circle of fists.
Yeah.
Your feelings are a circle of fifths.
That's, that's more jazz dispensary shit.
The cliff seals circle of,circle of fifths feelings.
I also cannot resist the temptation.
when you said, bringing it into thepresent day, like this present moment,
I really thought you were going to say,contrast this with the new Taylor Swift

(50:28):
album, which is in emotion and depth.
the actual complete opposite ofthis in every way and is for semi
literate, emotionally stuntedboneheads, Disney adulthood, the album,

Cliff (50:45):
you can buy any kind of love, but you can buy Love Taylor's edition.
Yeah,

Kyle (50:51):
well, you can't buy Love Deluxe, but you can buy Love Target Deluxe Red
Swirl vinyl version 12 of 42 to keep meon the charts in lieu of Charlie XCX.

Cliff (51:05):
I, I do
hate that you've taken.

Kyle (51:07):
I will, violate the no hating rule that you, that you have
worked me into for almost no one.
I will observe the Beatles maxim of ifwe are about to start hating, let's move
on and talk about loving Taylor Swiftand Drake can always catch these hands.
Proverbially speaking.

Cliff (51:28):
I, I hate that you've dragged me down this road, which I had intentionally
not turned down, but now that we're here,

Kyle (51:34):
That's what I'm here for.
Baby, to drag you down.
you're always wanting to leavethe bar and I'm like, Nope, Nope.
Not till we get in a fight.

Cliff (51:44):
that

Kyle (51:44):
Not till we leave in handcuffs, motherfucker.

Cliff (51:47):
I will say since I'm now a professional at finding Silver Linings,
at least though she is doing a thing Iwish other artists would do, which is she
did a track by track commentary versionand that from her, no, I don't need, but

Kyle (52:04):
I was gonna say, uh, yes, but anyone but her and then, and then going
on another interview and saying, hahauh, satire doing the Tommy Wiseau.
Yes.
Thank you for coming to my comedy film.
That was definitely a comedy.

Cliff (52:19):
You should have to be pre-cleared

Kyle (52:21):
Taylor, that that album is Taylor being like, anyway,
mark has your sex life.

Cliff (52:27):
At least we buried this discussion in the middle of the episode.
This is good.

Kyle (52:31):
No, this is gonna be the social media clip.
We're

Cliff (52:35):
will

Kyle (52:36):
doxed.
We're gonna get doxedfor the Shawday episode.
That's how Tuned Dig ends.
We went out with love.
Hate love, hate, love.
That's the Allison Chain songis the theme of this episode.

Cliff (52:54):
So I have a sense that maybe we have less specific answers
here than we normally do, butnow I'm curious to check the box.
So we sort of touched on ways tofocus, and for me that was just
like listening to the words ingeneral, which was a cool step.
But like I can't say that I hadthe same moments I usually have
with other albums where I went.

(53:15):
I can find a thing to likehone in on, on this record.
It feels wrong to me,to be honest with you.
And I prefer to stay zoomed out on it.
I'm curious if you found something else orif that aligns with how you were feeling.

Kyle (53:30):
So I'm totally with you.
I think that is totally fair and valid.
I. I keep coming back to that ideaof elegance and like, if you're
gonna focus, only focus a little,not too much for not too long, right?
I've talked about the misfit she thingson a number of episodes where it's,
that's the best chorus 'cause theyonly did it once and then it goes away.

(53:50):
Doing a move that you know is areally great move not enough, is
one of my favorite things in music.
There's a great Earl sweatshirt interviewearlier in his career where he talks
about the importance of mystery andlike, that's why Tom Waits is one of the
greats because you never get to know himall the way, and when you do it's wrong.
It's a lie.

(54:11):
So there is a sensuality tostaying zoomed out, right?
It's, once again, it's theCliff Seal don't turn the
lights on in Space Mountain.

Cliff (54:21):
Well said just there.
Holy shit.
Yes.
Perfect word.
Thank you.

Kyle (54:26):
I respect that deeply.
I do think there isn't a bit of an artform to just like, oh, isn't that nice?
You know, like, don't rewind thewhole tape to make everybody go
back and listen to the thing.
But if you catch it on the nextone, on your ride home, you know,
just a little kiss on the cheek.
So a lot of it is lyrics.

(54:47):
The string swell to open pearlsand then there is a woman
in Somalia, like five words.
It's like, I sat up in my chair and Iwas like, oh shit, I'm about to cry.
It's about to happen.
She cries to the heaven abovethere is a stone in my heart.
She lives a life she didn't choose.
And it hurts.
Like brand new shoes.
The sun gives her no mercy, the samesun we lay under, burns her to the bone.

(55:12):
Like there's so many lines I wish Ihad written and the economy, I don't
wanna zoom in too much because theeconomy of words here is just so good.
Oh my God.
Hearing the words delivered, but thenreading the words feels like walking
around in a museum, like I feel reverent.

(55:34):
About the words.
So

Cliff (55:35):
like I,
should be wearing pants whenI listen to this record.
Yeah.

Kyle (55:40):
which is the opposite of what I would've said before we
really started concentrating on it.
Like no pants
definitely required.

Cliff (55:47):
Deluxe.

Kyle (55:51):
Ah,
I no longer hope that my daughterone day listens to this episode.
but then, uh, what wasthe one in Feel No pain?

Cliff (56:03):
The bridge maybe.

Kyle (56:05):
Oh, no.
the third verse of like a tattoo.

Cliff (56:09):
Okay.

Kyle (56:10):
Which, the story of that song is crazy.
Like she's just relaying a storyshe was told in a bar in New
York, which it's good to know.
That happens to other people too,where you're just at a bar by
yourself and then somebody tells youabout the most harrowing experience
of their entire life and the guiltthat they live with because of it.

(56:30):
Alright, well I'm gonna,I'm gonna, I'm gonna go
and I'm never gonna see you again.
But thanks for haunting mefor the rest of my life.
Uh, she said, I remember his handsand the way the mountains looked.
The light shot diamonds fromhis eyes, hungry for life and
thirsty for the distant river.

(56:51):
But even me reading it, even theworst possible way to, to have these
lyrics delivered to you, sent a. Fullchill, top to bottom of my spine.
So there's little like, oh wow.
Oh wow.
Moments with the lyrics.
And then you gotta workfor musical moments.

(57:12):
the first time I reallydialed in with Feel No Pain, I
thought my phone was buffering.
'cause like at a minute and a half itstops and, she does the sing the blues,
and then there's the bass like, woo, move.
it was so cool, but so understated.

(57:32):
And then, the keyboard sound, thekey's tone in Kiss of Life, which
if it were too high in the mix.
Would probably make thewhole song sound cheesy.

Cliff (57:46):
Yes.

Kyle (57:47):
So it was specifically like, Ooh, I really like the like mouth feel of that.
You know, like a musical texture alwayshas a, a real tactile thing to me.
And then my second thing was like,it's a good spice, but there's
not too much of it in the dish.
It sits at just the rightplace in the palette.
And so there were a lot of moments of,I guess like walking around the museum

(58:11):
feeling of just being like, wow, wow.
You, oh, full O and Wilson.
Wow.
Like feeling theexpanding feeling from it.
it's a lot of showing and not telling.
I think it's a very adult record in thatway, and that it's like, here it is.
We've captured a feeling perfectly and.

(58:32):
Held it in our hands and stretched it outacross a good amount of time and space.
and most artists would be braggingabout their ability to do that.
They'd be flexing.
And there's none of that here.
There's so much, a gentleman as someonewho can play the accordion but doesn't.

Cliff (58:49):
Yeah.

Kyle (58:50):
so it's like an anti masterclass masterclass.
I just really, reallyappreciate the elegance.
It's like, it's full of secrets.
It'll never tell you, andyou're good with that.

Cliff (59:03):
And on the off chance that you listener think that we are even being
slightly like intellectually lazy bybeing like there's sort of a thing.
We don't know how to talk aboutthe inside of here, but it's there.
There is a quote from Sade that I thinkunderscores all of this, and we can
also talk about this song in particularif you want, but she was asked.

(59:24):
In a 1992 interview.
So this album is still Fresh Charade.
What is your favorite song on Love?
Deluxe quote.
If I had to pick one, it would beCherish the Day, but I don't know why.
I just like it.
I think it's really quite deep, butat the same time it's a love song.
It's funny, most of the song, I can'ttell you if I really like them or not.

(59:46):
It's really hard to be objectiveabout it, but cherish the day.
I know if I heard it on the radioI would say, God, this is good.
Who is this?
there's such a like detachment at play.
Like the song is thesong we made the song.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I like 'em.
Yeah, I made them well like what'syour, what is your question?

(01:00:07):
And like that's like afundamentally different and unique.
Perspective on music, especially again,because it's slow rolled music that's
been like slow cooked for a long time.
It's been a lot of thought anditeration that's gone into it.
And most artists, maybe it's becausethey feel the need to have it be

(01:00:31):
self-important at that point, butlike most of them are going to tell
you like, yeah, here's my favoritesong, or that's a stupid question.
Here's how I th you know, here'show I think about my songs.
And like to be right on the otherside of this multi-platinum record on
the other side of touring the globe.
And just be like, you know, now thatI think about it and I'm not really
sure which one is great 'cause reallywhat makes them great to begin with,

Kyle (01:00:54):
Yeah, it's very self-actualized.
That's another dimensionthat makes it mature.
Yeah, it never feels the need to explainitself, and one of them like famously.
One of the most well known thingsabout Sade is her reclusiveness.
And there is so little material,interview wise or whatever, you're just
not gonna get a lot of source material.

(01:01:15):
So I don't think it's intellectually lazy.
it's, you just are, you'regetting to conjecture very fast.
Like, here's my opinion on this.
They're not out there talking aboutit a lot like some of these other
artists, you know, where, where a gangof four have talked extensively about
entertainment, where Missy and Timhave talked a lot about Super Dupa Fly.

(01:01:37):
There's just not much of it.
There's very little from Sade and there'sborderline even less from the band.
Do you have a favorite song on the record?

Cliff (01:01:47):
Man, I hate that you asked me this right after I just talked about
how Sade thinks about it because I, I'mdefaulting to wanting to borrow that idea.
I, I don't have a favorite, I havefavorites of different categories, the
side of me Cliff, who likes intensityand Subversion that's like directly in

(01:02:08):
your face and making eye contact loveslike a tattoo more than anything else.
it's so intense and to the point.
again, I always bring up how much Idon't like lyrics so that everyone knows
when I'm talking about lyrics, I amdoing it with like extreme sincerity.
I do not feel the need tobolster anyone's words ever.

(01:02:29):
I think it's a waste oftime for the most part.
But you just talked about the lyricson like a tattoo and you mentioned
the light shot diamonds from his eyes.
Like she in that song never says theword shot and uses that sentence to
say the word without ever talking aboutwhat actually happens in that story,

Kyle (01:02:50):
how many artists have we talked about lyrics are a third rail sometimes
on this podcast, and how many times havewe gotten into our, like going back to
our AP English class level analysis ofshot is only used in the context of eyes
and not in the, not in the literal yet.

(01:03:10):
That's, God, I hadn't even noticed that.
That's
so good.

Cliff (01:03:14):
She says the thing without saying the thing to me like that
is, that was part of what makesthat song incredible to me.
It's not like fun to listen to, butthat the, the intentional subversion
goes all the way down, all the way downinto, I can tell you this story without
actually having to tell you anythingthat happened in it because, and this

(01:03:36):
got to me too when I started thinkingabout it, but like, because you're a
human being and it doesn't matter whoyou are, you know what this is about.
And I don't give a shitwhat war you've been in.
You know what she's talking about.
like it hits you at such a place thatgoes beyond politics and religion and

(01:03:56):
everything else that we put up as wallsto decide what we think about things.
And it goes right into you and looksyou at the eyeball and says like,
do you think you shoot a person?
Because this person regrets it forever.
that level of engagement tothe listener is powerful.
Not only because it's intentional,but because it's rare on the record

(01:04:20):
they're engaging with you differently.
But in that moment, like that songto me is a story from someone told
by Shaday about you, the listener.
I, and I know that's me editorializingon it, but like the, the shape
of the way that the story istold feels like a question to me.
Do you see yourself in this?
Or would you have done something differentand like that to hit me with that

(01:04:44):
halfway through a like 40 minute, smoothjazz record that I'm trying to shake
my ass to, will you please support me?
I never do this.
and then to just liketo get hit with that is.
It was deeply meaningful to me.
And even further, I think, you know,we mentioned this earlier, but I
had to like sort that out logically.
How does that seriousnessmake its way into this?

(01:05:07):
And that is where for the first time Iagain went, this is something like funk

Kyle (01:05:14):
It not only doesn't throw me out of the flow of the rest of the record, but
feels necessary to it, which is, try thihaving that thought and then going off
and making your own album and trying to dothat intentionally and it'll never work.

Cliff (01:05:31):
No.
And I will then give you aseparate and cheaper answer.
One of my favorite songs is Mermaid.
There's an instrumental

Kyle (01:05:39):
Okay.
That's why I asked.
I thought it would be the instrumentaland honestly I think it might be mine too.

Cliff (01:05:48):
It has such a familiar sound to it.

Kyle (01:05:52):
yeah, the, so the aquatic ambiance thing I brought up earlier, I think
it's like, if that were a love song,

Cliff (01:05:58):
Hmm.

Kyle (01:05:58):
I think it's like meeting your person in a dream is
what it sounds like to me.
And, and knowing, I alwaysthought it was Kiss of Life.
Like Kiss of Life is on my favoritesplaylist, my like all time favorites.
and I don't mean thatin a spiritual sense.
I mean, literally on my favorites

Cliff (01:06:17):
Yeah.
Kyle has literal playlists.
Yeah.

Kyle (01:06:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's two, 200 songs deep.
because I I love the way it makes youfeel like somebody's child-free aunt with
her eyes closed and her hands above herhead, my big fat Greek wedding style,
just like L-I-V-I-N, there's no purefeeling of freedom then the way that,

(01:06:41):
so I was like slipping into a warm bath.
Just, it's delightful.
It's nerv.
But mermaid caught me by surprise,and I was like, maybe I haven't
been listening to this record allthe way through all these years.
but man, it is a jam.
And there's, I guess another one ofthe like, don't focus too hard, but if

(01:07:03):
you focus a little, you'll be rewarded.
This is not a guitar record.
we, so many of the records we talkabout are guitar records, or we
find the guitar forwardness in them.
Certainly there's been a lot of thatthis year, but there's a couple of
moments of really interesting guitarand there's not nearly enough of it.

(01:07:25):
And I think that's one of the thingsthat makes what you get so good.
So like in no ordinary love, there'sreally crunchy, what some critics
described as heavy metal guitar,which is, you know, hilarious for
in the context of this podcast.
Um, like Trap Them andSweetback or whatever the the
band without Sade is called.

Cliff (01:07:45):
Love that.
Hm.
Two they used in the Neo Soul records.
Yeah.

Kyle (01:07:49):
but then they do like a little bit of a crunchy solo, not even a solo.
I mean, it's like.
Six or eight notes orsomething in No Ordinary Love.
But then Mermaid has this cool,clean jazz tone Mac, DiMarco,
EI, I can't even Pat Metheny.
I don't like, I don't know what it,what it reminds me of, but it's the

(01:08:13):
kind of guitar where I just want tosit and listen to an individual person,
do that for long stretches of time.
and then it's got some, like, you know,you're talking about funk is interesting.
It's sort of like we talked about, it'sthe inverse energy of maggot brain.
But I think Mer Mermaid and maggot brainare like an interesting thing to mash up.

Cliff (01:08:35):
For sure.

Kyle (01:08:35):
right up against each other.

Cliff (01:08:37):
Eddie Hazel could easily play a guitar riff over Mermaid
and it would be very tight.

Kyle (01:08:44):
Yeah.

Cliff (01:08:44):
yes.

Kyle (01:08:45):
Yeah, for sure.

Cliff (01:08:46):
then maybe we can now take the fun venture of saying what next?
There's a lot of what next potentialhere, which is pretty cool.
I actually don't feel nearly as walledin as I normally do in this sort
of moment of like, I gotta tell, Igotta tell the people where to go.
there aren't a whole lot of wronganswers, including just very literally

(01:09:09):
just listen to Sade in a largersense beyond this album in general,
until you're tired of doing that.
one thing I should say out loud,this was definitely, I noticed it
about myself, my most repeated.
A continuously repeated record ever thatwe've ever listened to for this podcast.
I was just getting to the end and justover, just keep going again, let's do

(01:09:30):
another, and like Mermaid was part of it.
It just, it feels like an interlude thatasks you, are you finished with this yet?
Or would you like to do another round?

Kyle (01:09:39):
Are you still watching?

Cliff (01:09:40):
yeah.

Kyle (01:09:41):
Yes.

Cliff (01:09:42):
And that was, I don't know why that is necessarily, but

Kyle (01:09:45):
Do you feel like I, I feel like we've come too far in the
podcast and we know too much nowfor it to be the same, but like.
The religious transformative experiencethat I had with Voodoo that I've talked
about a million gazillion times on this.
Did you get some of that withthis, it sounds like maybe.

Cliff (01:10:03):
This made me, the sensation you're asking me about made me feel
even more capable of listening toeven more music than I have before.
And I didn't even know that thatwas a thing I needed to feel.

Kyle (01:10:14):
Hmm.
Wow.
It's beautiful.
I feel so lucky to have them, her as ateacher, I know she would not want this.
I can say that with certainty, but I amadopting her as a spiritual guide when
we are constantly disappointed by thepeople who make the art that we love, and

(01:10:34):
that's become more and more of a theme,the more artists we've talked about.
It's like there's so little.
Sade out there.
And what it is, is a, a potentand directed energy, and we
are told explicitly by her,it's all there in the music.
You don't need anything else.
I can take the teachings asgood guideposts for my own life.
So where do you go from here, bud?

Cliff (01:10:54):
Currently I'm, trapped envisioning Sade being like, sent
by a cosmic entity to help us.
but in the, unfortunately my mind lockedinto like, but she's Roma Downey and
touched by an angel, and she's just like,
I'm an angel sent by Curtis Mayfieldto help you with your music.

Kyle (01:11:16):
Biblically accurate.
Sade, be not afraid.
My child.

Cliff (01:11:21):
I think one thing that might be kind of unusual to say
that might be cool to start withis like, maybe where not to go.
And I don't mean in a, you shouldn'tdo this sense, but I think, and
I'm not trying to place people intoo strong a categories, right.
But Sade, to me, represents.
such a kind of singular moment and partof the genre that was such a collection

(01:11:45):
of standout historical musical figures.
That to me, asking you to go back andtry to understand who inspired Sade would
just be like, go learn who inspired theBeatles and come back and let me know.
I did learn that.
I don't know that I actually learnedanything though on the other side of
that, because everyone on the otherside is a famous singular musician.

(01:12:09):
So I'm sort of saying that in the senseof even more than usual, I like the idea
of sort of exploring where this went.
So specifically.
Then I think, and, and we mentionedthis earlier, my biggest curiosity
for listening next is the.
Genre known as Quiet Storm, but like evenwe've talked about the Miseducation of

(01:12:33):
Lauryn Hill, we've talked about D'Angelo,we, we've touched on the places that
ended up downstream of all of this.
And I think, I mean, even D'Angelo'sVoodoo, like listening to that record
again, hot off of a Sade, listen, Ithink will actually change the way that
you receive that record and what you'rehearing, because just like it might

(01:12:59):
be overwhelming to try to go back anddissect what you know resulted in a
Shaday, trying to map the precise places.
That love Deluxe or Shaday in generalimpacted music seemed harder to me than
looking for the places where peoplefelt moved by her and by this artist.
and I, again, I'm, I'm sort of likestepping back from being specific, only

(01:13:22):
because it's helped me to look more andbetter at what should I listen to now.
And to me that helps put quiet storm, neosoul, a lot of that stuff in more context.
Like these records don't sound likeSade, but they do sound like someone
who listened to a lot of Shaday.
And I think that helps me draw somethingelse out, in other forms of music.

(01:13:46):
So to me, like I, you know,I've sort of fully gotten stuck
in that next step of things.
Like I, I truly didn't know thatthat was sort of like an objectively
agreed upon one, two step.
What is happening on this record?
And then quiet stormstype stuff downstream.
I, I would've thought that was more ofa tangential conjecture level thing.

(01:14:09):
And I do, I will say one more bit that,I mean, if I'm being honest as a bit
like less interesting musically, butinteresting culturally in order to
feel out that sort of timescale andeffect, I did learn a lot more about,
and you mentioned nostalgia earlier.
There was a nostalgia jazz movement in theeighties in Britain especially, which sort

(01:14:34):
of, interestingly enough did a, this'll befun to describe like a 1980s version of.
What they thought listening tojazz was like for jazz heads in
the sixties and seventies, and it'ssort of like a British cosplay of

(01:14:55):
things a bit, but I think had like a.
Know, I, I'm trying not toimbue it with like bad vibes.
Like it feels weird andkind of cheap, honestly.
But I can also see that thosewere people going to jazz clubs.
Okay.
so now we're connecting itagain to the Mingus thing.
Like you're listening to a thingin jazz clubs, but what's different

(01:15:16):
between the people who were goingto Mingus in the late sixties and
seventies or whatever, and thenpeople who were doing this sort of.
Jazz revival thing in the eighties isthey needed more accessible forms of jazz.
So then all this stuff gets smoothedout and compressed, and we come with
new kind of flatter genres of jazz thatare ironically still designed for the

(01:15:37):
experience of you sitting there enjoyingit, but instead of challenging you with
it to sort of lock into it, it's now it'sgoing back to the thing that we think of
as a you know, as the jokey jazz stuff.
It's dinner background music, it'sstuff that you can hear, but it
doesn't distract you from conversation.
And so those things together to me,just like examining the time period

(01:16:02):
sort of immediately before and after,which both felt unexpected were, to
me, the more interesting places to go.

Kyle (01:16:08):
I like all that.
I love that you mentionedMiseducation specifically because.
This felt like a culmination of, itwas like a greatest hits of everything
that we've ever covered on the podcast.
and to your point, not literallysonically, but the ideas that a
lot of these albums have come torepresent for us over the years.

(01:16:31):
So like you mentioned, they had thesedistinct soul influences, a big one of
which is Marvin Gaye, Marvin Gaye beinga forebearer of quiet storm type stuff.
But I think I Want You specificallyus having talked about that feels

(01:16:52):
in the spiritual lineage of thisbecause it's like getting in a mood
sonically and kind of staying there.
So if you like the idea, if youlike the way that love Deluxe.
Sort of hits a frequency andmanages to sustain it for an
unusually long amount of time.
I want you does that as well.

(01:17:14):
One of the things that surprised methinking about this being 1992 when
massive attacks, blew lines would havecome out and sent shock waves throughout
the uk and in addition to the nostalgiajazz thing, jazz is also getting refracted
into house and dub and can't underscoreenough the importance in the UK of like

(01:17:41):
club subcultures and how electronicmusic is starting to morph all of that.
But Portishead Dummy, one ofthe first albums we ever covered
is not out at this point.
When you talk about trip hop, whichlike this record, in my opinion, most
definitely is a trip hop record, andI never would've thought that before

(01:18:03):
the context of this podcast slotting itin with blue lines and Portishead, and
even stuff like Nina Cherry, or tricky.
it's really interesting, like triphop and hip hop like I would've like
put it perpendicular to all thatstuff, but it is very similar to it.

(01:18:25):
I heard some Bjork in this, especiallywhen she gets orchestral or poignant
or like the moments that stick outfrom the other moments feel like
Bjork feel like homogenic, Bjork.
So if you like, uh,like a tattoo or Pearls,

Cliff (01:18:43):
gonna say pearls could be on Homogenic.

Kyle (01:18:45):
pearls could be a homogenic song.
I think a lot of the texturalnature of this felt like cocteau
twins and specifically, uh,heaven or Las Vegas cocteau twins.
there's a lot of resonance in theway they feel sonically to me.
I think it feels pretty clear thatFiona Apple as a lyricist would've

(01:19:07):
been influenced by somebody like Sade.
Big feelings put intoeconomical, turn a phrase.
I heard some, maybe a littletangerine dream in the band.
You know, trying to go kind ofelectronic, get kinda lush with it.
I think if you like thecharacter of sade's voice.

(01:19:29):
Being great, but mostly 'cause it'sunique, not because it's Aretha Franklin.
Chelsea Wolf could be aninteresting place for you to go.
kick ass vocalist.
all too easy to mention JeffBuckley early to mid nineties.
Highly emotive, very sensuous,one of one type music.
Yes, I agree that you try not to saygo listen to a bunch of neo soul after

(01:19:53):
this, you know, do the DeAngelo Maxwell.
And the band did help producethe first two Maxwell albums,
so natural lineage there.
I should probably be physicallyrestrained from continuing to tell
people every time I open my mouthto listen to DeAngelo's Voodoo.
But there are a couple momentsspecifically where I heard Erica Badu.

(01:20:16):
like a tattoo.
The chord progression reminded me ofAD2000 from Mama's Gun and a little bit
of Andre three thousand's prototype.
So like we talked about Stan Conia on thepodcast, but I hear a lot of love below.
It's so funny that you openedComparing 3000 and Sade.

(01:20:37):
Sade, obviously hugeinfluence on Three Sacks, but

Cliff (01:20:40):
Damn.
Oh ho.
Sorry.
Yeah.
I need to go listen to thatrecord with that in mind now.
Holy

Kyle (01:20:45):
Lo Love

Cliff (01:20:47):
stuff's coming to mind.

Kyle (01:20:48):
Yeah, Yeah,

Cliff (01:20:49):
Wow.

Kyle (01:20:50):
yeah.
Spread pink and blue,

Cliff (01:20:54):
That would've been the first time that DRE could be like, this is
my Sade influence here, right here.
Oh, that makes so much sense.

Kyle (01:21:02):
Yeah.
Love Below and love Deluxe.
I kind of want to hear somebodydo a gray album, mashup of them.
if that doesn't exist, it needs to, thething that I thought I hated about Frank
Ocean, we talked about Channel Orange,but I'm thinking more specifically
of blonde, the formlessness of it,the lack of percussion and how tones
and textures occupy the space first.

(01:21:23):
and on a lot of blonde, he didn't evenfeel the need to do the drum programming
like they eventually did on Love Deluxe.
But, there are songs that fade in andout on Love Deluxe that feel very Franco
like Fran Ocean has not been shy abouttalking about what an influence shot a is.
But if you like that, fleeting in and outof your consciousness, ethereal aspect

(01:21:46):
of Frank Ocean, I, you have a reallygood spiritual ascendant in Sade here.
we talked about awakened my love.
I don't think that record would exist,especially the more ethereal moments,
like a terrified, like the quieter partsof me and your mama, um, or baby boy.

(01:22:06):
that to me is still the beststuff Donald Glover ever did.
cause it was just really pure distilled.
He called it an exercise in feeling.
So if you like that record, you know,there'd be no red bone without Sade.
I feel pretty strongly about that.
And then another thing thatlike, is still so shocking to
me that TikTok made it popular.

(01:22:26):
I don't know if you remember, but theDeftones covered no ordinary love.
and it's very tune diggy in the factthat on that covers and BSides whatever.
Record that is to call it amixed bag, is a, is about as
complimentary as I can be about it.
There's also a simple man cover, andit feels very, very Kyle Stapleton,

(01:22:52):
in his Ford F-150 in high school,CDR, that Sade and Skynyrd would
be on the same track listing.
But if you like the Sensuousness ofDeftones and you can't listen to any
other heavy shit, but you love theDeftones, that is because of Sade.
Huge influence on the Deftonesand on Chinos specifically.

(01:23:14):
And Greg Puciato from Dillingerand now better lovers has also
cited them as an influence.
And if you don't like his heavy vocals.
That makes you wonder, like, why did JerryCantrell pick him to be the guy to go out
and sing Lane Staley vocals every night?
That's why.
'cause he is got a soulthing, a dimension.
So like all of the things that are likethe capital R, capital a real artist,

(01:23:39):
things to all those folks we justmentioned, that's why they all love
or are spiritually connected to Sade.
Like there, there's, there'ssuch a pure, it's not even punk,
it's, it's like disrespectfulto be like, wow, it's so punk.
I think subversive is a good wordfor it, but even that signals intent.

(01:24:00):
And she's not trying tosurf, she's just surfing.
You know, that's, that's what makesher a bit of a spiritual figure is
like, it all, it all just is man.
It exists in a pocketdimension beyond time.
And it really is all that deep with Sade.
and the other thing that Isaw, was an Elton John quote.

(01:24:20):
Another great in their own right,sir Elton John said they made so many
great records and when you go back andrevisit 'em, pure class, pure beauty,
and maybe that's what it is, man.
It's just it's such a rare thing to feelpure beauty in this world, and that's
what they managed to bottle and deliver.
I love it so much.

Cliff (01:24:42):
I love that you mentioned both Chino and Greg.
Those were two little quotes Iwanted to make sure at least got
tossed in here somewhere as evidenceof the broader sense of influence
that Shawday has had on music.
Like these are people who care about doingvocals well, who are doing very different
styles of music, who are all telling you,this person, this person inspires me.

(01:25:05):
This was really, really good.

Kyle (01:25:07):
Do you remember, how many Sade shirts we saw at Furnace Fest that we
pointed it out to each other like, andwe thought it was just to be cheeky
and then eventually realize oh no,it's just like game recognized game.
Anybody who music makesthem feel very deeply, no.
Like this is, this, is it Youlook, you're staring directly

(01:25:28):
at the Sun of Deep Feeling.

Cliff (01:25:29):
You do the cheeky thing enough and you tell on yourself.
So yeah,

Kyle (01:25:34):
Yeah.

Cliff (01:25:34):
a lot of people wearing Sade shirts and a lot of good vibes between them.
And to that end, like, just howreally fill in this picture, like
this is like Sade as a person.
Let me give you the funny ones first,Drake has tattoos of Sade, okay?
in 2010, like Kanye West was like, Sadejust had new music, and this is better

(01:25:55):
than everything else in existence, right?
but then like MF Doom,sampled Kiss of Life, right?
Rakim Tole Kule, Joey Badass, LL Cool,J Mob, deep Nipsey Hussle, Freddy Gibbs
all sampled Interpolated something Sade'smusic so it's, People doing vocals?
Well, it's people doing soul.

(01:26:15):
It's people doing hip hop.
It's all the trip hoppeople you mentioned.
It is maybe even more than most ofthe other records we talked about,
a downstream just constellationof people who were not inspired
specifically by a musical thing.
They could pick out and reproduce,but instead somehow by the vibe.

(01:26:38):
Just the vibe.

Kyle (01:26:39):
you know the through line that I hear when you run down that
list, we talk about Furnace Festand seeing somebody wearing a big
shot, a shirt in the Mind Force pit.
We talk about somebody like FreddyGibbs who's the most machismo dude
ass rapper you could possibly imagine.

(01:27:02):
You talk about Greg Puciato, wholiterally breathes fire on stage.
And the thing that I hear remindsme of that thing we said on the
Brooks and done episode of like, mensimply do not be yearning anymore.
Maybe Sade is a gateway drug toending the toxic masculinity crisis.

(01:27:24):
You know, 'cause the signal that I hearfrom the man averse in there being an
appreciation for Sade is like, well, Ican't talk to my boys about anything deep.
You know, I'll go two days hangingout with my boys and still not
know that his pet died or whatever.
But I guarantee you, a group of dudes whoall listen to Shaday, have cried together

(01:27:47):
or, or like actually know things aboutwhat's going on in each other's lives.
So, once again, maybe the lesson inthis is, um, men don't deserve women.
But I sure am happy that we can learnfrom, we can be blessed by the matriarchy.

Cliff (01:28:02):
Honestly, that's a very good takeaway for everybody
is the next time you're aroundsome people that you care about.
you need to evolve just a littlebit to be a little bit more closer
together, and you look directly intothe camera and you put on Love Deluxe.
And when they ask you, Hey bro, what's up?
You do not falter.
Do not move back.

(01:28:23):
Do not second guess.
This is Sade's Love Deluxe, andwe'll be listening to this now.
Okay.

Kyle (01:28:31):
I am,
I just cannot shake the visual of youputting on Love Deluxe very loud when
you pick up a friend from the airportand doing the Paul Walker, staring
directly at them from the driver's seatand saying, me the deepest fear that you
haven't been able to express to anyone.

Cliff (01:28:52):
Tell me something
you've never told anyone else before.

Kyle (01:28:55):
that's right, and then they're totally and thoroughly fucked up.
You park the car and you say,all right, we're here at dinner.
Let's go eat.
That's the Cliff Seal friendshipexperience, and I hope everybody
gets that in their life.

Cliff (01:29:07):
Not too far from the truth.

Kyle (01:29:08):
Go have yourself a yearn, gentlemen.
The world will be better for it.