Wolf Man (2025) | Episode #473

In this episode, Josh, of Abyss Gazing, and Josh, from Brilliant But Lazy, navigate the multiple adaptations of The Wolf Man. From the 1941 version of the story up until the current version from Leigh Whannel, which version of the story stands out and which one falls flat?

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This episode of Victims and Villains is written by Josh “Captain Nostalgia” Burkey. It is produced by Burkey. Music by Mallory Jameson (https://bit.ly/expandmal) and Purple Planet (https://bit.ly/ppcoms).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Or Victims and Villains. My name is Josh, and today
I am joined by the other Josh here Victims and Villains.
Mister Goswell, how one half of the Brilliant but Lazy podcasters.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, brilliant but lazy we are. We are brilliant, but
we've been lazy lately and we haven't been putting out
any stuff. We got to talk about the Superman trailer,
we got to talk about Creature Commandos.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
We got to talk about a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm I'm ready to talk about it, but I'm in
the process of moving Alan. You know, he's got he's
got school and work, and so we're we've been a
little lazy lately, but we're gonna get together soon.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I swear that's where we are.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
It happens, you know, you give the people what they
want to give them. That update on the the Brilliant
but Lazy crew. They did just really, you guys just
just did just release an episode a couple of weeks ago,
covering Penguin and Agatha all along, and then I feel
like there was one Oh Craven which on the moving
That's right, thanks for taking that.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's not surprising that the Craven part was forgettable, just
like the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
But yeah, well, we are here today to span the
decades of talking about the multiple interpretations of Wolfman, or
in some versions of the story, the wolf Man. We're
going to be talking about nineteen forty one, twenty ten,
as well as the Leewanell modern reboot that just hit

(01:32):
theaters not super long ago. But yeah, I will be
the first one to say where wolf movies are not
my favorite genre of the horror genre, and so I
really it takes a lot for me to kind of

(01:52):
really connect and want to revisit these films. And Lon
Chaney obviously from the original forties, the original era of
Universal Monsters has always been a standout for this subgenre.
And I always recommend this to that movie to people.
It's taken me a long time. It's probably my least
favorite of the original six, but it's still a good film.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So nineteen forty one was the first,
and then what we had a twoenty ten remake, and
then these these go different than most of the remax.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Most of the time when you see a remake.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
The way they change it up is they put the
in front of the title, but in this case, it's
the reverse. The forty one and the twenty ten version
had the wolf Man, and then the twenty twenty five
version is just Wolfman, And so that was the choice,
and well, I don't you know, I'm interested to get

(02:53):
your thoughts on if it was a good choice overall.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, we could start with the most modern take on it.
I think we're going to be kind of hitting things
off and on throughout the course of this episode.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
But are we doing spoilers or spoiler free?

Speaker 1 (03:07):
We'll do spoiler free at first. I will say this
movie kind of a let down I really had. I'm
a huge Winel fan. I love Salt. It's one of
my favorite horror franchises of all time. I really do
enjoy him in the Insidious movies. I really do, really

(03:28):
loved freaking loved The Invisible Man, so I read really
high hopes for this one, especially because it looks like
he's kind of taking that same kind of approach with
like the more intimate mental health aspects of it. And
I'll get into that, but I think for the most
part this movie works, and then it just really fumbles

(03:50):
the landing, Like it's the last probably forty minutes of
this movie like hurt the overall product.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
You know, I'm a big fan of Frank Grillo and
I liked the Purge, but this was just the Purge
with were wolves and scientists and oh no, wait that
was were wolves. That was two months ago. We're talking
about wolf Man. Uh not the Frank Guilla Gorilla were
wolf Man. Another another sad movie, sad were wolf movie

(04:24):
of the last year. No, I say, I really enjoyed
Invisible Man. I thought that that was a much better
modern retelling of that than what was the Kevin Bacon
one hollow Man hollow Man. And I did like hollow
Man or parts of hollow Man for what it was

(04:44):
back in the day. But the more I walked it,
the more I'm like, this is just lacking. But Invisible
Man I really enjoyed. And you know, they seem to
bring oneell on to do these modern, interesting retellings for
not a lot of money.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
And the thing is it.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Really worked with Invisible Man because he's invisible. So you know,
you have to have a compelling story and eventually show
some tech and some stuff, but you can do a
lot when you don't have to see the villain in
this case, they really tried to do the same, and
in parts the body Horror worked, I think. But the

(05:27):
problem was, at least for me, was kind of the location.
They started off with this grand location and this epic,
just Yellowstone esque spread, and then the more the movie
goes on, you realize they're just kind of running back
and forth from the house to the barn, to the garden,

(05:48):
to the house to the barn to the truck, and
it feels like such a small film that's redundant pretty quickly,
redundant in multiple ways. There there were things that I liked,
but man, it just it seemed to be way too
long for what it needed to be and it didn't
cover much ground, and it Yeah, it was definitely disappointing

(06:12):
for me in terms of just how they went about it.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
I didn't even consider the location as it because you're
you're right, like when you kind of have that cold
opening where you're getting to see Blake and the relationship
between his father, like it's this very large, grand scope,
and also like the opening kind of scroll introduces this
like mythology that the as this is called wolf with

(06:40):
a face or face face of a man. Yeah, like
it's it's this very like grand almost kind of Native
American h lore that they have to it. And I
really was kind of like intrigued by that. I thought
that was like an interesting spin on it. And then
the more the film got on, the less they actually

(07:03):
like did with it. Yeah, Like it feels like this
film is so frontloaded that by the time it actually
gets to kind of that payoff portion, you never actually
see it.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, and it works to build up the tension. I
mean that opening scene was.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
You know, pretty good, pretty good. I liked it.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I was like, Okay, you know, I don't know if
there's multiples of this thing out here, but this is clearly,
you know, a predator, and the big you know, the
badass dad is even scared. I loved the breath effects.
It was just a cool opening scene, and I'm like,
all right, this is good building tension. But then, yeah,

(07:46):
there was a point in the film where it just
kind of like it just you know, cut out any
momentum it had underneath it, and and I was just like,
all right, my guy, when we finishing this up, you know,
I know where this is going, sadly, and you know,
I guess I'm just here for whenever you guys decide
to wrap it up, and you know it would just Yeah,

(08:10):
it was just kind of lackluster for me.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
I think, really, what would hurt this movie and this
this is like we you know, living in the age
of social media and tabloids and information now there's nothing
that kind of really goes without the knowledge of the public.
So we kind of we really watched this film through
the lens of the pandemic being developed as kind of
a dumpster fire right where Winnell originally was only supposed

(08:38):
to write it. They had another director attached to it,
and then that director drops. They had another director and
I think it was like two or three before when
now actually was like, you know what, I'll I'll direct
this one. And also Ryan Gosling was originally supposed to
play the Christopher Abbot role, which I interesting not to
say that like Abbot does a tear job. I think

(09:00):
he's fine for what he is, But I think this
movie could have been elevated, especially with what we've seen
from Gossling in the last few years. I think this
would have been like a really different role than you know,
fall Guy or Barbie, And I think this kind of
would have allowed him to kind of flex some of
those muscles that we've seen in earlier films from him,
like Drive, Place Beyond the Pines, et cetera. And I

(09:25):
think some of the some of the behind the scenes
drama of this ultimately unfortunately ended up hurting the final product.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well first tuned in to a lot of you know,
Hollywood behind the scenes stuff, as I tend to be,
I didn't know any of that. I see that Ryan
Gosling is attached producer, probably because you know he was
going to be starring in it. But honestly, if I
were to think of everything you just brought up, I

(09:54):
don't think it was directed horribly.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
I don't think the.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Cast was the issue I on it. Think the writing
was the issue.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
It really it it.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
It was an hour and forty three minute movie that
was very redundant that anytime it did present you with
something that was different or cool, it then presented that
four or five more times, and by the fourth or
fifth time, it's not cool anymore, and you're just like, Okay,
are you just stalling to draw this film out? Is

(10:28):
there a point to this? The fact that it's over
one night just felt like they were cramming a lot
of stuff in, and you know, it just there was
a lack of lore, There was a lack of development.
It was just like bam bam, bam bam, accepted or
don't credits, and I just, uh, you know, I thought

(10:52):
there could have been more.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
To the story. Yeah, And it felt like the the
third act in particular, felt like there was there was
to be more to it because you know, in the
first act, like we spend time actually kind of understanding
the dichonomy between Charlotte and Blake and kind of the
marital struggles that they're having, and also kind of seeing

(11:14):
the relationship between Blake and his daughter and how that
is different than him and his father. And you know,
by the time that we actually get to the third act,
it just felt like there was like maybe like twenty
minutes that just felt absent from this film that like,

(11:34):
because this is I don't know how you feel that.
I feel like this film just kind of ends abruptly,
very and it's so jarring when you think about the
pacing of the first two acts and then you kind
of get this this climax that we'll talk about in
the spoilers, but that climax feels like it's over as
quick as it began. And then from there your Charlotte

(11:58):
and daughter are just kind of of just kind of
exist and that it's kind of like black screen credits
directed by Lee Winell, and it's just kind of it's
so jarring to think about.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
There's just thing, you know, Yeah, I'm I think this
needed some fleshed out. I don't think it needed to
be longer. I think needed to be fleshed out. And
you know, it's fine if you didn't want to remake
The Wolf Man, if you wanted a modern take on it,
if you wanted it to be more like a kind
of disease that comes on quickly, But there were just

(12:38):
elements that if you're gonna go that way, go that way,
you know, it felt too much like a like a
zombie film for a while, or a zombie in And
then of course there's there's the things that happen in
every movie that is like this. Oh every other version

(12:58):
of this is just a mindless predator. But for some reason,
when the main character gets infected, they're not they're the
different ones and they remember who they are kind of
or they they you know, still love you and it's like, okay,
but why you know there? It just there's a lot

(13:19):
of tropes thrown into this that were better in other
movies or have been done so many times that I
was just like, all right, I know exactly where this
is going. Also, going back to the location, I think
they originally kind of present you with this to give
you the sense of, oh, this is such a grand

(13:40):
country that things like this can happen in this area
and people might not know well about it. But the
more it shows this predator and the likelihood that there's
multiple I'm like, how would people not know about this
after forty years of this thing being out there? You know,

(14:01):
we're multiple decades of this thing. And then is it
only a predator when the main character comes home, Like,
as nobody else died from this crazy predator that seems
to just be bloodthirsty consistently? Did it go on hibernation
for thirty years?

Speaker 3 (14:17):
You know?

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Like there was just a lot of things. I had
more questions going out of it, only because I just
thought that the writing was subpart.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, it's it's not It's not one else's finest hour.
I'll give him that. Yeah, I feel like every artist
is kind of entitle to take.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Oh yeah, I'm not saying fire this guy, never hire
him again, you know, or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, I think beyond the location, I think also the
the fact that this takes place over the course of
one night also really hurts it as well, because I
go back to the pacing, you know, the I liked,
I really did like. I guess here, I'm gonna get

(15:02):
into spoilers, So we're gonna take a quick commercial break.
We'll come back and we'll talk about the spoilers for
a Wolfman. We'll be right back.

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(15:29):
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Speaker 1 (16:53):
Welcome back to the Victims and Villain's podcast. If you
guys have not seen Wolf mayn we're about to jump
into the spoilers. So how at the Moon helped to
your local theater? And check it out. You've been warned.
But going back to what I was saying before the
commercial break is when you look at I think I
think that fact hurts it really bad is the fact

(17:15):
that it takes place in one night, essentially the bulk
of the story, because I mean, yeah, like you have
there are some like development that obviously kind of sits
outside of that one night, but the you know, ninety
five percent of the story takes place over one night,
I think that really is what hurts it. Whereas like
you look at how slowly Blake transforms, and I really

(17:40):
liked that they took their time with that transformation stuff
that you kind of didn't really know what was wrong.
You kind of got to see him kind of take
shape into being the wolf Man, where we haven't really
seen a lot of that stuff in the earlier the
other two adaptations. But on the flip side of that,
the other two adaptations, especially nineteen forty one, I mean,

(18:03):
I guess I both do you know it takes place
over several days if not, you know, like a week
or two, And I think I think in terms of
timing that works out better, especially for the nineteen forty
one version. But I think it really hurts this one.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Mhm, yeah, well I think I mean, I think they
just needed a little more.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
So.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
The film starts off with young Blake. You know, he's like,
what ten, maybe you know, somewhere around there hunting with
his dad. His dad is being a good dad, teaching him, Hey,
you gotta be careful out here. It's beautiful country, but
there's plenty of things that can hurt you, and you
need to pay attention to me. And then they come

(18:46):
across a predator, maybe two predators, and you know, even
the dad is scared, and you're like, okay, this is intense.
But then it immediately cuts to like twenty years in
the future or something like that. Thirty years okay, so
he's either forty or he was much younger than ten.

(19:08):
But you don't know, like, did Blake live in that
house till he was eighteen? Did he move away a
long time ago? You get the sense that he hasn't
talked to his dad in a while, his dad's been
missing for a while. Was that since he was a teenager?
Has his dad only been missing for five years? If
Blake grew up in this home and then moved away

(19:29):
to college and say never moved back, he would still
have a better sense of the dangers of this area.
And then if they found two predators that day, are
you telling me that those predators never came and attacked
the house or anybody else when Blake continued to grow
up there. But the literal second he's back on the

(19:50):
radius of the house, the predator comes and attacks, you know,
Like it just it was just very convenient that, oh,
he's been gone for thirty years, but the second he's back,
this predator is here and won't stop, you know. And
if that's the case, why hasn't anybody else been killed
by these predators? Especially if the transformation is that correct

(20:16):
he gets scratched and turns into one of these things overnight,
I would think there'd be an epidemic of these things
if that was the case. And then the other part
of it, like I was alluding to, he seems to
transfer over time but still have an affection for his family,

(20:38):
Like he's a little farah, he's a little loyal and
is that just him? Does he have the magic touch?
It was just like you're skipping blocks here. That would
have made the story a little more interesting if you
filled in the.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Blitz, So I don't disagree with you. However, I think
you're overlooking a small detail from the beginning of the film.
So when he gets the paperwork kind of from the
lawyer's office essentially announcing that they his father had been
officially declared dead and been giving back you know, you

(21:13):
got to go come back, get the effects, so on and
so forth, he mentioned at that dinner that he hasn't
you know. He talks to his daughter at some point
in the film and says, you know, I basically like
left when I could and never came back, and I
haven't talked to my father in you know, a very

(21:33):
long time. So it's it's kind of inferred that, you know,
when he's of legal age, Boom goes off to college,
doesn't look back. And I think, I think you're right,
But I also kind of I kind of think, you know,
going back to something I brought up a little bit
earlier is kind of the canine vision as we kind

(21:54):
of see where it's I don't know how you felt
about it. I liked the touch. I thought it was
an interesting interpretation of it that you're kind of getting
to see this guy peral, but you're also getting to
see that that transformation through his eyes, Whereas we kind
of always in other adaptations of not only this property
but other werewolf movies, you see everything kind of from

(22:16):
the perspective of those around the wolf or the around
the effect it, Whereas this time you've got to see
not only that trope be played out, but also kind
of getting to see it through it. And so I
think those those visions and those points where Charlotte is
communicating to him or his daughter's trying to break through
to him, like you can kind of see that there's
like this like almost like hopeless because he can't understand him,

(22:39):
like he can't actually see I think at one point
in we kind of get in that canine headspace, you
actually hear him say, I can't understand what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
I did like that when when they first showed it,
it gave this sense of, you know, you can see
the confusion and the panic on his face, and then
when it does the kind of split screen and switches
to his perspective, you know, him saying I can't understand you,
and their eyes glowing and their words not making any sense,

(23:10):
it did add.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
To the ah I feel for this guy.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Like he's he is here trying, you know, and and
but then it just continues to do that throughout the film,
and I'm like, I got it the last time you
did that. Oh I got it the last three times
you did that. It just felt like a stalling technique
towards the end, you know, like, oh, we ran to

(23:34):
this location, Let's do it again. We ran up to
the second floor, Let's do it again. The artificial the
artificial ways to extend the chase were just this dude
could break through a windshield. This dude could break down
a door, but he's not smart enough to jump through
a window. Or the family, you know, crawled up on

(23:58):
top of the garden, you know, plastic thing, and the
feral beast can only think to stand below and jump.
He can't chase him up the side. Like there was
all these artificial things that the riders just wrote to
extend the chase, and at some point it was just like, Okay,

(24:21):
I'm just I'm just long for the ride. It's not
making sense. Oh, they're gonna do another They're gonna do
another werewolf vision thing. This was cool the last couple
of times houses gonna end, and then it just does you.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Know, I didn't necessarily mind the the overplaying on that.
I thought it wasn't like I said, I thought it
was an interesting touch. Probably does overstays welcome a little bit,
it probably does become a little bit redundant, but overall,
like I didn't find it to be like overly annoying.
I think, you know, for me especially, I had never
seen the twenty ten version of this, and out of

(24:59):
all all three of these, it's definitely the worst, which
is just mostly because it's it's boring, like it looks good.
It it looks good, it's acting good, it's it's well written.
It's just it's overshot and overstaying. But I digress. The
reason I bring that up is because in it's not

(25:21):
it's not a story element. In the forty one version
where it is Larry who is that film's werewolf, that
he is, you know, the descendant of werewolves, it's never
a thing that's actually touched until the twenty ten version
and they have that scene with between him and Ben

(25:44):
Benicio del Toro and Anthony Hopkins kind of having the
were wolf fight. Having watched that for the first time
and having that in my mind, I felt like the
moment that they kind of introduce the source or like
the actual like beast of it. As Blake was transforming,
I was like, it's going to be his dad, like
like it just it felt too predictable for me that

(26:07):
you know, it's never actually like he's declared dead, but
there's no like body or anything along those lines.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, and then you're like, so are the other ones
still out there? Because there might be at least two
other ones out there? And then do they only come
out when Blake comes home? You know, like are they
have they not been killing anything for thirty years? Has
no one like the neighbor does say hey, you know
you've been around here. You should know you don't go

(26:37):
out after night. That's fine. I feel like that's the
general rule. But if there was a wolf man predator
multiple that are out there, I would feel like more
people would know about it. Over forty years now. In
the beginning, the dad reaches out to the dad of
the neighbor kid and says, I saw it. You know,

(26:59):
the rumors are true. I'm gonna get that fucker. And
it makes sense. But if there's multiple, you know, like
this this area is grand, but it ain't that grand.
You know, and and these things don't seem to be hiding,
you know, like they didn't even get up to the
house and it was already on the road. You know,

(27:21):
there's plenty of wildlife in these woods, but it's attracted
to a moving truck, so it doesn't seem to be
scared to be among the human elements. So I would just,
you know, if there was something that alerted out, like
maybe it is attracted to things that it knows and
it only came out when it's sun came home, I

(27:42):
would think that could have been something they would add.
But I just thought the writing was thin. And you know,
we're gonna talk about the other two. You know, the
first Wolfman was a very straight, straightforward plot. The second
wolf the twenty ten wolf Man, took a lot of

(28:03):
elements from that and then added some things and maybe
added too much. But then going back to this, I
get it they wanted a simplistic approach. It was just
too simple and it was too bottled, and just the
bottling of the location, the pacing and keeping it to

(28:23):
one night just felt like, Okay, there's just not a
lot to this movie, and it's too long for it
for it's good.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, there's a lot that I want to react to
a lot of the things you just said. And you know,
I think talking about the like you said, like the
nineteen forty one, I feel like kind of set the
modern standards for what we know as were wolf films
as a whole. You know, it kind of is one

(28:51):
of the first major subgenre releases of the genre subgenre,
and a lot of those we've seen kind of take
shape in you know, other adaptations that have gone on
to become the iconic. With you talking about American Werewolf
in London, you know, Ginger snaps a lot of the
other ones. And but you know, you mentioned that you

(29:13):
joked earlier about when we started this about were wolves
from last year with Frank Grillo, one of the worst
films off last year. I will say that is a
is a bottom five for me personally. But I think
one thing that it got right with that this film
misses the opportunity on is actually creating the werewolf as

(29:35):
a threat. Where not to say that the werewolf isn't
a threat in this but you said that like this,
this predator has been out here for you know, twenty
thirty years, there should be a whole horde of them.
You know, there should be an entire village of them.
Anyone that enters in to this, you know, should be infected,
you know, but we kind of don't see that. And

(29:56):
there's there's a moment where early on when they kind
of are lost to break down, you're introduced to a
fellow neighbor whose name is escaping me at this moment,
but he like goes on to be killed and like
definitely should have you know, been infected. Like I just

(30:17):
I think that's one of those things that like has
always uh really gotten me about the werewolf genre is
that there's nover like these like clear rules of the
genre that are laid out to where it's like who
gets infected and who gets eaten? And like how do
you define that difference?

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, well, and you saw parts of his body later,
so so I guess he got eight And and maybe
the werewolf just wasn't hungry enough and scratched the other guy.
I don't know, but I mean, and and at first
you don't even think he got scratched. It kind of
looked like the glass just hit him in the arm,
you know, and then it but but it really was

(30:59):
like that and maybe that's what they were trying to say,
is it was such a chance that he got scratched,
and maybe most people don't make it out of there alive.
But I still can't believe that it's only like one
a decade. You know, these things seem to be pretty present.
And I really did feel like in the beginning, when

(31:19):
they're running to the house and you see it blurry
in the distance, like crossing the field, I got that tension.
I was like, this thing's moving, you know, get the
hell in the house. But as soon as they got
in the house, it was like they were safe. Like
you know this glass or the glass is super strong,
it can't go through a window or anything.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Like.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Their safety only seemed to be in jeopardy when they
left the house for some reason. And if there was
a reason for that, if there was, if they were
trying to say, well, this was his house and maybe
he doesn't want to fuck up the house, Okay, but
you got to fill that in me come up up
with that just feels like I'm making excuses for the film.

Speaker 5 (32:05):
But yeah, I'm kind of curious how you feel about
the other two films because we've kind of talked about them,
and I've kind of hinted where I lie with them,
but I'm kind of curious how you feel about them.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
So I've never seen the nineteen forty one movie, and
I ended up watching it. And it's a short film.
It's not a short film. It's an hour and ten minutes.
It's kind of what films used to be, you know,
and it's very direct and very simple, and I really
enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
It was just it had.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
The lore, it had mentions of the French lore with
were wolves. There's a really there's a lot. I'm actually
working on a Where Creature book right now, and the
lore of were wolves going back to France is just
really interesting and they make mention of that, and so

(32:55):
I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the just the basic premise
of Larry and uh, you know he's into Gwynn and
uh there's there's some some gypsies and some lore and
then it's just you know, Larry gets infected and and
uh you don't want to believe it's him, but it

(33:17):
is him. And then at the end, uh, you know,
he goes after gwyn and you're like, I'm you know,
he's gonna be He's gonna He's not gonna hurt her
because he loves her. That's not where they went with this.
He was a creature, he was he succumbed like everybody else.
And I appreciated that it was simple and I really

(33:37):
liked that first wolf Man. I thought, I thought it
was a cool story. Yeah have you seen that story
multiple times?

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Or yeah? I uh So, during the pandemic, I got
really big into two VHS collecting, and uh Eric and
I had been slowly watching a lot of those early
Universal films up to that point in the last couple
of years, and Wolfman was the one that we could
just never find, and so I randomly found it on

(34:04):
VHS for a good price and we watched it. And
I've seen it. I've seen a handful of times, and
I have to say, out of all of the Universal monsters,
is probably my least favorite. And that's not a knock
on quality, it's it's just preference. But I really enjoyed

(34:25):
a lot of that lore. It's it's a really simple.
It actually like dives down and it doesn't. I think
it also it is reminiscent of another era, but I
feel like more in this like post world of like
the Disney Renaissance where you had you know, like Little
Mermaid and Lion King and all these other things come

(34:48):
in where it's those films have really had an impact
on pop culture and the way that we do storytelling,
where it's now we need to have these really happy endings,
whereas when you look at this film, like it's it's
like you said, like he doesn't. He sircumbs to the

(35:08):
darkness and kind of really invests and ultimately ends up
taking the life of his beloved. And I really wish
that we still got films like that. I really loved
a lot of the lore with the pentagram and you know,
the fact that like that's how you could tell that
you were one if you had the sign or if

(35:29):
you know, you looked in like the hand of that
was going to be your next victim. And so I
liked a lot of that stuff, and I feel like
they've just kind of gotten away from that. I don't
I don't know if that's like the French touch and
lore to it, but I really appreciate that, and I
really wish that in future Wolfman interpretations that we would

(35:49):
get more of that.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, So the twenty ten film, I love the twenty
ten film. But I will agree that it's boring. I
I went to see it in theaters. I was so
excited for I fell asleep in theaters watching it. I
remember falling asleep, and I told myself down the road,
you were tired, That's why you fell asleep. So when

(36:12):
it came out on Blu ray or DVD or whatever
it was, and they released the extended cut, I'm like,
I'm an extended cut guy, I'm going to watch this.
And I do remember the first time I watched the
extended cut, I did fall asleep, and so I fell
asleep the first two times I watched this film. But
I so I will admit that it's boring and that

(36:35):
it's pacing is a little out there. I can't remember
if the extended cut is the hour and fifty nine
minutes or if that's the original timeline. But there's a
lot of things that I love about the film. They
bring a lot of nods to the original. They bring
the wolfhead cane back into it, they bring there's a

(36:56):
lot of nods. There's a lot of expansion with the
father and the storyline. I love Benizio del Toro in
the film. I love Anthony Hopkins, Emily Blunt's great Hugo
weavings great. It's a great cast. They bring the Gypsies back,
they add a lot more. You know, there wasn't a

(37:16):
lot of action death horror in the original, but they
really ramp that up. He is an untamed creature that
just kills until he passes out and wakes up in
the morning covered in blood.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Like I loved all that.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
I love the doctor angle and the you know, the
science angle of it, and then you can't contain the beast.
You know, it's a It was a It did feel
like out of all of the adaptations and the remakes
and the times that Universal has tried to restart their
Monster franchise, this was the one that they put the

(37:52):
most effort into, not necessarily modernizing it, but like paying
tribute to the original and just giving it the a
fresh new code of paint. And maybe because it didn't
do well and they spent a lot of money on it,
then they've tried to walk that back and do these
other you know, Tom Cruise, Mummy and and all the

(38:14):
I mean they had they were they were gonna go
strong with this new version of all these monsters.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
At one point.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, and I think it's a stark reminder that you
don't need big budgets to tell good stories. Yeah. And
you know, one of my one of my friends said
when he got out of the Mummy from Tom Cruise,
it's if you come in with the expectation of the
Brandon Fraser or the original thirties, you're gonna be disappointed.
This is essentially a Mission Impossible spin off. And there

(38:46):
are things that I I I would admit it's not
a great movie. There are things that I strongly appreciate
about it. I go back and watch it every couple
of years. But I think for for me, like the
the twenty ten version, and I remember seeing like bits
and pieces of it. I owned it at one point
on DVD, and I just it's one of those things

(39:07):
that I just never actually sat down to watch it
and ultimately like lost it or sold it. I don't
have it anymore. But this was the first time that
I actually like sat down and watched it from start
to finish. And I think the hour fifty nine I'm
pretty sure is the extended cut, because I think the

(39:28):
version that I watched was like like a little over
one hundred minutes, so probably like one forty something. I
think for me, like it's just a it's a very
slow story, and I think, you know, for me, one
of the things that that kills it when you look
at the original and even this this remake now in

(39:49):
twenty twenty five, is the practical effects really do work.
And really, I think that's always what's kind of helps
me when I think back about other werewolf movies that
are really like whether you're talking about The Howling or
American War Wolf in London or Ginger Snaps, practical effects
are always the heartbeat of those stories and the reason

(40:11):
that I think the character designs work so well. The
scene in particular where he's like locked up in the
straight jacket in front of like all of the scientists
and you know, they're trying to, like Marvel and you know,
kind of explain away how he's been able to commit
all these murders, and that CGI transformation always kills me.

(40:34):
It's the one scene I remember from that movie, and
watching that in context with the rest of the film,
I was like, Man, I was like, this, not only
is this movie boring, but it looks terrible at the
same time. And that's that's again that's just personal preference.
But this movie did not age well visually.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
It definitely had that twenty ten CGI. It kind of
reminded me of what was that first Hulk movie? When
did that come out? That came out in two thousand
and three. It definitely reminded me of that era of CGI,
for sure. I just there were so many things I
loved about it. I love the locations. I love the

(41:13):
grandeur of it. I loved Anthony Hopkins looking like a
fucking mess from most of the films, but on the
nights of the Full.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Moons he was done up.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
You know, He's combed his hair, he had eyeliner, he
was wearing his fancy gear, he had combed his beard,
you know, like it was a part of the ritual
for him. I loved Hugo Weaving just as the Inspector,
just you know, unflinching and running into the fight every time.
Unlike the nineteen forty one. Yes, they definitely extended on

(41:46):
the story, but they kept on, like giving us more
action scenes. You know, it attacks the gypsy village, it
gets loose in the city and goes rampant and starts
killing people, and it really is like a you know,
it just kills.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
It's just once.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
The look of the wolf also, you know, I get
it they were looking they were going for more diseased
looked in the new film. I really like this twenty
ten look like it was. It was formidable. It was
wolf like but man like, and always had like a
slice of clothing on it. It just looked cool, you know.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
And I think maybe they.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Just overdid it a bit with the story. But I
always commend them for really trying with this because there
were so many nods to the original that I saw
after just watching the forty one classic, and I just
wish maybe it was a little tighter and it had
been received a little a little better because they just

(42:51):
I appreciate this new surge of let's make horror movies
on a small budget so we don't lose a lot
of money, and it forces creators to be creative, and
that works a lot. Especially in recently we've seen a
lot of low budget horror movies that are just stellar.
But I do believe that Wolfman it needed better writing,

(43:13):
it needed a better budget, and and maybe that was
too much of a crutch for them to make it
make it work.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
I really have a love hate relationship with the character
design here because, like you said, like I really love
Laan Chaney's wolf man. I think it's a it's a
classic design. It's the one design that a lot of
people know. It's the one that we've really kind of
based a lot of our lore and kind of modernization

(43:43):
of that character on. So to deny its impact on
the genre as a whole would be a big, big letdown.
I really do. I think for as much as as
I was born and the issues of it, I really
do like the character design of the Del Toro one.

(44:04):
I think it really works in the kind of the
final form for as goofy as, I think it kind
of is in the movie the final boss fight between
him and Anthony Hopkins in the werewolf forms, I think
really worked really well. I really did enjoy kind of
their character design. And I had a love hate relationship
here with Winnell's character design because when you kind of

(44:27):
see Blake's father as the werewolf, that werewolf design is
closer to the Cheney design from forty one, but it's
not quite there. It's kind of somewhere between like the
man that he was up until like that and it's
probably maybe like sixty percent wolf forty percent man kind

(44:51):
of thing. And I go back to, you know, I
think it goes back to your comment about the writing
in this movie. The character design of like the final
form so to say, of Abbott's character is it just
looks really bad from that perspective, it's not quite he

(45:14):
kind of It kind of reminded me of that the
Hector Hammond character designed from Green Lantern, just without the
mustache where you know, he's kind of like really progressively sweaty.
He's not overly hairy, you know. It just it didn't
really work for me, like I, Like I said, I

(45:35):
really enjoyed like the slow burned transformation aspect of it,
But for us to believe that that's the final form
of his wolf just kind of seemed like a slap
in the face.

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Speaker 2 (46:51):
It just I mean, and what they had they had
linked the look of this, and apparently the director was
very upset about this, but they had They had something
at Universal Hollywood Horror Nights Halloween Horror Nights in October
where they had a booth and they had somebody looking
like the Dad and I guess it wasn't the final design,

(47:13):
but they had that and a lot of people were like, oh,
this ain't it, you know, And it definitely didn't work
under Comic Con lights out in the open, you know,
I think they could you can get away with a
lot in darkness and on filmed, but you know, when
you can walk up to it in the lights, it
doesn't look great. And apparently that was one of the

(47:35):
designs for it, and they they did edit it a
bit from there, but the director wasn't happy that that
was out there. And from when I first saw that,
I was like, this seems more wrong turn for me
than a werewolf thing. If not seeing the werewolf scratch,
I would think this is some mutant, you know, family

(47:57):
in the woods type thing. And I get it they
were going for a disease thing, but it just it
just didn't ring wolf man to me, you know, and
you know, I get it you need to have some
type of element to modernize it, but it did feel
more like a disease. But then again, going back to

(48:20):
that opening scene when the kid is looking through the
scope and he sees a hairy figure standing on two
legs in the forest, that definitely looked like a wolf,
you know, and maybe that one was just really old
or something, but that gave me high hopes that maybe
eventually these other ones would turn into that.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
But yeah, the design was off for me.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
I think, you know, kind of going back to the
comparison between Invisible Man and a wolf man. One of
the things that you know, when you look at thematically,
you know, here in Invisible Man, you have a woman
that has undergone this really abusive relationship and kind of
like the last trick of everything of Adrian in that

(49:05):
film is to essentially like gaslight her, and you know,
which is very is a very common thing that happens
with victims or survivors of abusive relationships, whether it's physical
or sexual or any any thing along those lines. And
I think it really worked for that. And here, I

(49:25):
don't know how you felt about it, but I think
I think I think the one thing that if you're
talking about mental health that they were really trying to
capture is you essentially have this like kind of somewhat
again tackling those themes of abuse, you know, where you
had a father that was very hostile, you know, again

(49:47):
going back to I think he was just kind of
didn't really know. But it ended up having this like
long lasting impact on Blake as a character, who he
was as a father, who he was as a husband.
And I think they kind of like did a good
job at kind of like bringing the conversation of like,
you know, if you repress trauma or anything that you

(50:09):
classify as trauma in your life. Eventually it's going to
come back. And you kind of see that very early
in the film, where he you know, kind of comes
back and him kind of coming face to face with
the wolf and that source of you know, trauma almost
kind of felt like it was a personification of that trauma.

(50:32):
And then somewhere along the lines they were like, oh, yeah,
we're making a creature feature horror film. You know, it
can't be as smart and as slick as it was
in The Invisible Man. I think that was kind of
the biggest disappointment for me, is it felt like the
Wolfman aspect felt like an extension of that trauma, and

(50:52):
then they kind of backpedaled to where they're like, actually, psych.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, well, his Invisible Man was very well written. It
was very I really enjoyed it. It had a lot
of tension, It had a lot of mental health themes,
It had a lot of development of those characters, and
I appreciated the hell out of that.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
You know, it was an excellent film. I love that film.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
This film has the building blocks for a similar situation,
but it just it just has no room to develop it.
You get introduced to this couple. You can see he's
struggling not to become his father. That's a big part
of his life. She's struggling with her career. She seems
to have a more like they're both have a career,

(51:43):
but her career is more out of the home, and
she's struggling with that and her relationship with her daughter
versus he seems to get a little more time because
he works remotely or something like that. So those are
the building blocks for this development. But then literally the
second that they get on the road to the house,
they get attacked and then it doesn't stop. And had

(52:07):
this not been over one night, had this been over
a week, you know, and maybe he got infected and
it started to gnaw at him throughout the week, and
the tensions grew and they tried to recouple their relationship,
but it didn't.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
You know, I'm not trying to rewrite the film.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I hate it when people do that, but I just
feel like the fact that this was all in one night,
it just kept on going, you know. It didn't give
the time the characters time to It didn't give them
time to develop. And then it also didn't make a
lot of sense, because I'm sorry, if the wife and
the husband are already kind of feeling a part and

(52:43):
she witnesses him chewing on his own arm, she's not
gonna go to another room in the house looking for
something and leave him with his daughter. Like like there
were just there was character moments that she was too
trusting of her husband, and after she sees him become
this thing, you know, and I was just like I

(53:06):
didn't know who to root for, Like I just I
didn't care about these characters because they didn't give me
a reason to care about him, honestly, So I just
looked it up.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
I agree with everything you're saying, but you know, I
think it comes back to something I said earlier in
this film of like, you know, not only wanting to
have the time that we already have fleshed out a
bit more kind of expanded over, kind of ditching the
one night aspect and kind of going for like maybe
a weekend, you know, even kind of starting out something,

(53:39):
you know, somewhat smaller. I think this movie could have
done a whole lot better. So The Visible Man has
a runtime of two hours and five minutes. This this
one here has an hour forty seven so again I
come back to my statement from earlier in the show,
where I was like, I think this movie could benefit
from a you know, ten even a ten to fifteen

(54:03):
minute kind of extension and kind of really fleshing out
and really developing a lot of that stuff. I think.
I think the stuff in the beginning with Blake's father,
I think it works. I think it's a little bit
longer than I necessarily think it needed to be, you know,

(54:24):
and turning that on its head, I think you also
could potentially like kind of flesh out a lot more
of that stuff at the cabin. Like I also think
we spend a little bit too much time in the city.
You know, you can you can already define like the
things that you need to define, Like there's problems in
their marriage, he's closer to the daughter, and he's got

(54:45):
trauma from his childhood. Those are the three things that
the story really didn't need as expanded on. And you know, again,
it kind of comes to this problem that we see
in a lot in modern cinema where the stories are
force feeding too much exposition to the audience and not
allowing the audience to kind of make those educated guesses

(55:07):
and really kind of develop other aspects of the story.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Yeah. Yeah, it's just disappointment for me.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
I wouldn't say were wolves are my favorite monsters, but
I thinking about it when prepping for this, I realized
there's a lot of werewolf properties that I love. You know,
I understand a lot of people don't like the twenty
ten Wolf Man, but I do appreciate that. I loved
the Teen Wolf movies growing up. I love the I

(55:37):
love the MTV remake of Teen Wolf. I thought that
was interesting. I love the Underworld movies. There's so many
American werewolf in London, so many great I think what
was the other one, Dog Soldiers, I think was one.
There's a lot of great werewolf properties out there, and
this one was an interesting take. And I'm not gonna

(56:01):
lie that opening crawl talking about the disease. I read
that and in my mind I immediately had a battle.
I'm like, this is either gonna be an interesting take
on the lore and I'm gonna dig it, or this
is going to be their excuse for a bad design
and a lackluster transformation. And it ended up for me

(56:23):
being that second one.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
So yeah, even going back to that opening scroll, I mean,
you had the opportunity with that introduction alone to really
kind of take a prey type approach to the story where,
you know, for for reference, I'm talking about the Predator
sequel from a prequel from a few years ago. I

(56:47):
think kind of getting away from you know, the I
liked it that this film got away from the Talbots
and we got to see kind of other takes on this.
But I think you kind of miss it entirely by
trying to, you know, teasing that this comes from an
entire another culture, all of this lord and then being like,
but we're actually gonna focus on the culture that you.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
Do know, mm hmmm, uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
I just you know, it's perfectly fine if you're gonna
do a new take. Everybody is, you know, I think
everybody should get the chance to do it, and we've
seen it work, especially with him. I hope he doesn't
get type cast into being the guy that they go
to to do a new take on these things, because
everybody that gets put in any type of type cast,

(57:33):
whether it's m Night, Shyamalan or or any of the
other greats, eventually, you know, they're gonna get burnt out
or people are gonna have unrealistic expectations. And I just
hope that doesn't turn out to be the case for
this because while I really did not care for this film,
I loved Upgrade. I loved Saw, I love the Invisible Man.

(57:56):
This guy has a lot of great creativeness within his veins.
So maybe maybe you know, and I know, he's done
a lot of insidious things. You know, maybe let's give
him a break from from redoing a classic and let
him do something else, because Upgrade wasn't a remake of
something else. Sure it had a lot of similar themes

(58:16):
to other things, but he knows how to do the
body horror stuff. He knows how to add this sci
fi horror angle to it. What else you got?

Speaker 3 (58:25):
You know?

Speaker 2 (58:25):
I want to I want to give him some free reign.
Hopefully this doesn't, you know, this doesn't stop them from
giving him one for him, because I really want to
see his next film.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Yeah, and I mean to to. Uh, you know, we're
we are getting another MUMMIU that's kind of the next
Universal Monster. But Lee Coryn, who directed The Evil Dead
Rise from a couple of years ago, is set to
do that one next year. And I'm I think I agree,

(58:56):
Like I want to see what other filmmakers are able
to do with these properties. You know, I don't think
that they need to be go the way of you know,
Tom Cruise's movie. But I think when you take you know,
stories like this or or Invisible Man and you kind

(59:16):
of make them these like really intimate monster movies, I
feel like it ups the stakes and really brings a
refreshing take on that. And you're also addressing some more
modern things that I feel like are are important conversations
that we need to have, like you know, what it
looks like to end a toxic relationship or stepping out
of that, what the aftermath that looks like, and also

(59:39):
the lasting effects of childhood trauma. And I think I
think some of the more personal things work here for Wolfman,
but I think it's ultimately what ends up kind of
souring my experience with this is just the fact that
there's a lot of missteps that they do with the
actual Wolfman store. I think a lot of the more

(01:00:02):
dramatic elements really really do work here. I think it's
really I think it's well acted. You know, we didn't
kind of talk about that that I think the directions
kind of hit or miss sometimes, but overall, like, I
think this is one of those movies that has the
like you said, like it has the building blocks of

(01:00:23):
something that could have been an exceptional story and a
really like awesome take on this this mythology, and it
just kind of fumbles itself.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I think the only last things I could say about
this is I really appreciate the cast as actors for
who they are. Julia Garner I have loved her ever
since the Jason Bateman show Ozarks. I think she's fantastic.
I am so intrigued by her career, and every time

(01:00:54):
she gets a new role, I'm intrigued. I'm even intrigued
by her silver surfer thing. I think that is a
crazy choice, but let's see if it works. I like
her a lot. I don't know a lot about Abbot,
Christopher Abbot. I again, I don't think the actors themselves

(01:01:14):
were the issue. I think the writing, because I just
didn't understand why Blake was presented so dumb, because even
if he hated growing up with his dad, even if
he didn't like the rules or the strictness, and he said,
you know what, as soon as I can get out,
I'm gonna move to the city. I'm gonna be a
different person. That's fine. But if he was there to

(01:01:39):
a point where he was able to leave on his own,
there would have been things ingrained in him that that
neighbor said, well almost basically said you should know better,
you know. And if he's gonna come back to get
the stuff out of his house, I don't think he
would have forgotten the ten fifteen years he lived there.
That was like, hey, this is harsh country. You don't

(01:01:59):
go wout after dark, you know. And he comes here
like a stupid tourist and immediately get puts his family
in danger. And I was just like, did you forget?

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
And and maybe he did, And maybe that's part of
the flesh, Like maybe we needed a therapist scene where
he's like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
I blocked out a lot of the stuff of my childhood.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
You know. It was just it was just traumatic for
me and I really can't remember living there. That would
have been five seconds that would have helped me understand
his character, because from the get go, I'm like, man,
you were just way too casual about this. And and
you're an old neighbors calling you out, you know, like
and and then immediately they're in danger and the neighbor's dead,

(01:02:42):
and I didn't like the character, so I think I
think he could use some more touches.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Yeah, I agree with all that stuff, and I think
it's again, I think this is just just kind of
continues to expand upon the problem that Universal has with
these properties, with not really knowing the right person to
bring in. And I think for for them, they saw
the success and the both the critical and even probably

(01:03:10):
I don't know about the finances of Invisible Man because
it was released on the cusps of the world shutting
down the pandemic, but you know, it was received very well.
I think it's I think outside of the original like forties,
I think it's probably the highest uh like critically acclaimed
of these these types of Universal Monsters films. I think ultimately,

(01:03:35):
I think you just need the right people in this
these these these things, and it will now you know,
for giveness track record, you know in Insidious, uh, in
the Insidious movies, the Saw movies, uh, the you know
upgrade as you mentioned, and Invisible Man. I mean, this
guy's got a brilliant track record. You know that track
record doesn't always hit and this is just kind of

(01:03:56):
one of those things that I feel like just doesn't
really hit. I would love to see a director's cut
of this version, should it exist out here. But this
film just it seems like it's the skeletons of a
great film rather than actually being a great film.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Yeah, you know, I don't know how much the budget
on this was. If it's anything like his other movies,
it's probably going to be low.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
So I hope, okay, well.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I don't, you know, I hope it at least makes
that back. It's a pretty low number for them to
make back, so hopefully it makes that back. And you know,
I don't think this should be held against him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
I mean other than you know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Literally can't think of one director that doesn't have a
film that you know, ah, that wasn't your best film,
you know. So this, this definitely isn't going to be
the end of this guy. I'm excited for his next film. Yeah,
this just doesn't didn't hit for me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
But it was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
It was fun to go back and look at all
the other It is interesting that we've only had three
wolfmen compared to how many mummies have we had, and
how many other attempts of how many Dracula films that
were universal involved in, and you know, if you think
about the Dracula un Told and Dracula two thousand and
just you know, Uh, I guess let's do this Mummy.

(01:05:19):
I feel like Tom Cruise's Mummy was just last week,
so let's see if they can get that back on track.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Yeah, so I think it's gonna do it for us
on this episode of Abiscusing. That's a different podcast, Villains.
But where can people find you online?

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
My guy, I'm out there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
A Fierce Literature is my website and that has all
my social media. I'm getting ready for Planet Comic Con
up in March. I'm moving between now and then, so
it's going to be a hectic next couple of months.
But yeah, so a lot of exciting stuff coming up.
And yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Yeah, you guys can find me every Wednesday, I'm over
at a biscasing wherever you guys get your podcasts from
six pm Eastern Standard time. Also every other Monday on
that's high praise a Nicholas Cage podcast. But also just
want to plug this out. We also did just release
a David Lynch podcast tribute in memorial of him, So

(01:06:24):
it's on this feed as well, So go check that
out now that you've done figure talking to us about Wolfman.
But if you guys go to victims at villains dot net,
you guys will find links to all of the podcasts
that we've teased thus far, as well as social media
and most importantly, our mental health resource library. But until
next time, we'll see you, guys, and we'll be howling

(01:06:45):
at the moon.