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November 13, 2025 53 mins
South Charleston Mayor Frank Mullens on growth there, State Democratic Party Chair and Delegate Mike Pushkin, and Robb Reel from KWS on Turkey Drop.
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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:16):
The views and opinions expressed on this program do not
necessarily reflect the views and opinions of five ADWCHS, its employees,
or WVRC Media. From the studios of WVRC Media.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
The country, the United States of America, the state West Virginia,
the city Charleston. This is the Dave Allen Show on
five eighty Live, and your host.

Speaker 4 (00:43):
What we've got here is failure Milky.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
He's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 5 (00:50):
I have come here to chew bubble gug and kick
out at a fall autobl.

Speaker 6 (00:56):
Dave Allen, Welcome to the show. It's a Thursday edition
of the show. Big Ley Pigley Wiggly Hotline three zero
four three four five fifty eight fifty eight. Tony the
Taylor Text three zero four nine three five five zero
zero eight. We're in the Jared Construction studios, right on time,
right on budget visit Jared Danashconstruction dot com. We are
going to forego all of the normal intros this morning

(01:18):
because we got breaking news.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
Let's go to Jeff Jenkins in the newsroom.

Speaker 7 (01:20):
Good morning, Jeff, Hey, Good morning Dave. Yes.

Speaker 8 (01:22):
Of course, we've been following this since Saturday up at
the Rolling thunder mine near Swiss in Nicholas County, when
that mine flooded and seventeen miners were able to escape,
but the foreman there was not able to get out,
and so a rescue effort has been underway, mostly concentrated

(01:43):
on pumping out water from the flooded mine, and Governor
Morsey just tweeted this about less than ten minutes ago
that they had gotten enough water out at six o'clock
this morning to be able to enter the mine. And
then they did find the mind norman, and he did
not make it. Steve Lipscomb is his name, and so

(02:05):
the governor putting out a release about that. Let me
just quote a little bit of that. The team began
their search, examining every section as they advance underground. At
seven thirty seventy am, one two man team located the
body of missing minor foreman Steve Lipscomb cruiser worked tiresly
around the clock in twelve hour shifts to search for
their colleague, and then he went on to say, quote,

(02:27):
today we grieve for this terrible tragedy and honor the
life of one of our own. This morning's news is
absolutely heartbreaking, and so the governor and put out that statement.
We've got the story and you can read the full
statement at wv metronews dot com. But yeah, you knew
it was going to be You're hoping for the best,

(02:49):
rite but knew, you know, the longer it went, the
more difficult it might be. And we don't know, you know,
the circumstances around this time. Out later, you know there'll
be an investigation Diddy drowned or whatever or you know
happened there tragically. But yeah, not a not a not
a positive ending there for him, And we don't have it.

(03:09):
We don't have where he's from. With this release we
had we had learned that he's I think from the
Elkview area, that's what we I don't have that confirmed yet,
but that's some of the things we've heard in leading
up to this. But he was an experienced mind who's
a former there I think he had at least twenty
years in the minds. So we'll find out more about that.
But that's just just just breaking this morning.

Speaker 6 (03:30):
All right, and of course the talk line guys, and
we'll have more. We'll have it, and we'll have more
on midday as well. And this you know, the governor
I think at this time was scheduled to speak at
this energy someone which is going on in Charleston, So
I don't know if that's been delayed or what. Of course,
he and the first lady making that announcement earlier today.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
We'll keep you.

Speaker 8 (03:47):
Updated well, you know, and just from all the stories
that we have done, you know, they were as you
look at it. I mean, they did everything they could, right,
I mean, they had the resources there very quickly. They
started pumping that water out very quickly. Uh started that
on Saturday, you know some of those things on Saturdays.
It was so much water, uh that that had filled

(04:09):
the mining Exactly why it filled it? How come there's
that much water. That's all going to be part of
the investigation obviously coming up. But uh, but again just
for mister thoughts and prayers or with mister Lipskin's family
right now and those who knew and fellow fellow workers.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
And that community too. And there's something you know.

Speaker 6 (04:27):
I come from a cold wont mining background, as do
many of our listeners to this show. It is a
it is a close knit family that people that aren't
in it may not necessarily understand, right, And and so
the entire state of West Virginia's screaming at this time.

Speaker 8 (04:44):
Yep, yes, okay, if I go to the website, you
can read that. You can read the governor's full statement there,
and then we'll obviously have more during the day here.

Speaker 6 (04:51):
All right, Jeff, thanks a lot breaking news, and again,
uh uh, it was the it was the news that
we didn't want to hear, obviously. And the governor is
speaking I understand at this energy summit right now, and
he's he's at the podium as we speak right now.
So we'll have more on that on talk line coming

(05:11):
up a little bit later on certainly a Metro news
midday as well. But again, the breaking news coming within
the last fifteen minutes or so from the governor is
that that minor Nicholas County has been found dead.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
All right, let us move on.

Speaker 6 (05:27):
The phone calls, will get to a little bit later
on if we have any, of course, we always get texts.
Our service to big Ley Piggley Wiggley, Spring Street, Charleston.
Texting services courtesy of Tony the Taylor on Virginia Street
and Charleston.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
A couple dates to remember.

Speaker 6 (05:37):
November the eighteenth, he into Bolt sales save up to
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course he will be open for that, and December fourth
is the holiday trunk shows. Visit Bestmaster Taylor dot com
or Tony's Facebook page for more information. Coming up a
little bit later on State Democratic Party chair and Delicate

(05:57):
Mike Pushkin is going to join us. Also, Rob Riel
is to join this from her sister station ninety six
one KWS talk about next week's Turkey drop that is
happening one week from day on our parking not here
at eleven eleven Virginia Street, Charleston. I want to welcome
to the show now though the Mayor of South Charleston,
Frankmullin Junior, Good morning, sir, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
Good morning, Thanks for having me always and thank you
for being here.

Speaker 6 (06:16):
And you know, I'm going to give you an opportunity
because you you came in at nine o'clock this morning
and we were going to talk about some positive things
in South Charleston. This is certainly not the way we
wanted to start the show today, but I'm going to
give you an opportunity if you would like to say anything,
you know on behalf of the city of South Charleston
about the miner who was found in the c S.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Nicholas County.

Speaker 9 (06:35):
Well, you know what what's saying, there's no thought you
hit the nail on the head. I was thinking the
same thing as what you mentioned was that obviously your
your your heart breaks for the family and heart and
bought some prayers go out to the family. But the
whole community, as you mentioned, it's a community. It affects
the whole community. It's such a tight knit group as
you mentioned, and so, yeah, it's a tough day. And

(06:57):
I didn't I just heard it when I walked in here,
and so it was. It kind of hits you kind
of hard, even from South Charleston.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yeah, it hits you.

Speaker 9 (07:05):
It hits you kind of hard so our whole community thoughts,
some prayers would be with the family in that community.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
Indeed.

Speaker 6 (07:11):
Indeed, and again they're going to have more on that,
the governor speaking now, we'll have more on that coming
up on talk Line with Meadows and Wilson at ten
o six and at Amanda and I will of course
have it in fold of tail coming up after ten
or after noon today on Metro News Midday.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
All right, let's get to some other things.

Speaker 6 (07:27):
Reason I brought you in here today, I wanted to
let you tell us about some things going on in
South Charleston. Got a lot of exciting things going on.
So just take it from the top. Every time I
turn around, man, I pick up, there's a business opening,
there's a ribbon cutting. Of course, you got the mall projects.
So what do you want to start?

Speaker 4 (07:43):
Well, that's that's it.

Speaker 9 (07:44):
I mean, we're we're going through it seems like we're
going through a rush here with new business coming to
South Charleston, which is a great thing. A matter of fact,
when I leave your show today, I'm going to another
ribbon cost Okay, going another this morning.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
And what is that? In spring Hill? A little Caesars
built a new store in spring Hill. So we're going
to go down and cut the ribbon on that here.
Do they say pizza pieza a ribbon ribbon? Absolutely?

Speaker 9 (08:02):
Yeah, yeah, But it's a it's a new restaurant in
our city. It's it's Little Caesars was already there, but
they built a new restaurant there. So that's what we're
gonna do. But sometimes, Dave, you know I've mentioned this
is these kind of ribbon cuttings. You know, you always
you know, you're took on to depth to get the
new business. And every when you have a business here
that reinvests in your community, that's every bit is important.

Speaker 6 (08:19):
Well, and I think mayor it goes to show and
this is a franchise and we love our you know,
we love because they employ a lot of people. We
love our small businesses too, But it's it says something
about South Charleston that the business wanted to say, hey,
we need to we need to pick up our game
a little bit, do a little refurbishing whatever.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
Obviously business is good or they wouldn't be doing that. That's
exactly right. And that's what I mean by the reinvestment.

Speaker 9 (08:40):
You know, those companies that do that that's a that's
a big deal as well, so we're thrilled with that
as well.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
But yeah, we've been calling on kind of a role
and it's not just the Park.

Speaker 9 (08:47):
Place, and I think maybe seeing a little bit of
a domino effect of that, which I've said numerous times
over the years, what what what That's going to be
one one thing we're gonna all all see is a
domino effect. What's going on to Park Place. But if
you go speaking of park Place, if you go by there,
you mentioned what's going on. So obviously the Kroger store,
which is going up tremendously fast. They've already moved their
opening date up a month into May of next year

(09:09):
instead of June, so it's really gone well. And there's
three other buildings going under construction there as we speak
as well. Two of them will house about seven businesses.
Of Peace will be fourteen there, and then you have
Mission Barbecue getting ready to start on the corner just
directly across the street from Chick fil A. There will
be the other two buildings I mentioned on how some
of the smaller businesses of three to five thousand square foot.
Although we've announced Sketcher's out coming it's about an eight

(09:32):
thousand square foot be the biggest one of those roofs there.
So Hughy mcgoo's is coming Pizza and Cream, which is
I think a really neat story. You know, we love
all of our businesses coming to park Place, but Pizzas
and Cream is a West Virginia business out of Clay County.
If you google them and see their story is basically
was created out of a brick oven building their property
out in Clay County. So it's a pretty cool story
to have that kind of homegrown business coming.

Speaker 4 (09:54):
To park Place. What what is leading all this? I mean,
why are people wanting to come to South Charles Well.

Speaker 9 (10:00):
I hope that it's because we have focused from the
day I got elected back in seven. One of the
things that we really wanted to stress was to be
in a business friendly community and all that that implies.
And I hope that that's a big part of it.
I think it is never one thing that it's always
a big package deal why people want to come here.
It's never about taxes only. It's never about you know,
location only or parking only. It's kind of the whole package,

(10:22):
you know, from free parking to our location to our
tax credits. We have in a book for new and
expanding businesses to just our our willingness to serve our
you know, I think our response to business community when
they call us about something. It could be something as
small as a crack sidewalk, but you respond to it.
You don't respond six months from now. You respawn tomorrow.
You know, you know you want to get things done
for them, and get things done quickly. So I think

(10:43):
all that stuff, you wrap it up in a nice bow,
and you make sure it's here to stay.

Speaker 10 (10:47):
You know.

Speaker 9 (10:47):
That's the other thing, Dave. You can't just do it
for a little while. You have to prove to everyone
it's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. We got
staying power here, and I think people realize now that
we have staying power.

Speaker 6 (10:58):
We had a couple of texture for you. One says,
any plans for the old Kroger building?

Speaker 9 (11:03):
Yes, the old Kroger building is already backfilled. I can't
make the announcement to who it is right now, but
there'll be two retailers going on there. One of them
will be new to West Virginia. So we're excited about that.
And that's one of the things I stressed from day
one when we did this thing with Kroger Marketplace coming
across the street, was to make sure we backfill Kroger
and not have an empty space over there.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
So that's been done. We had a text here.

Speaker 6 (11:23):
This was a personal text from a delegate jb Acres,
who said, thank the mayor for helping to coordinate Thanksgiving
meals and a couple of schools in my district.

Speaker 9 (11:31):
Now, and thanks JB as well. I mean he texted
me and reached out and kind of got that ball
roll and then so we it's a good program, and
so thank you, JB. I appreciate that. Another team effort.

Speaker 6 (11:40):
Another question about the Kroger says that they called it
the Gucci Kroger. Now we got to get this straightened out. Okay, yeah,
Gucci Kroger is out at Ashton Place in Day's Valley.
We had the Pradakroger. Okay, so you guys are going
to have to come up with another name, all right.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (11:56):
I'm not sophisticated enough to come up with something. The uh, well,
we've got to come up with another name, the.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
Biggest and best, biggest and best.

Speaker 6 (12:04):
But it says that Kroger that they're building South Charleston. Uh,
Are they going to sell weed eaters too?

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Because it's huge.

Speaker 9 (12:11):
Well, their product line is going to going to go
above and beyond groceries because that's it is a marketplace
and the only one in West Virginia.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
So that's kind of why we agree to do this.

Speaker 9 (12:19):
When you say above and beyond mare, what's well, they
will sell other things they'll sell if you go to
different marketplaces around I've never been to I've only been
to one in Hilton Head when we've gone down on
a vacation and we went the one down there, and
depending on where it's at, I think is what they sell.
And down hilt Hill all it's all beach and beach
where and those kinds of things that go along with
with that community. But outdoor furniture, clothing, you know, just uh,

(12:43):
just a variety of different things that they'll sell there.
It's almost like a section of the Kroger is almost
like a mini Walmart type situa question.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
All right, So Charles and maror Frank Mallins.

Speaker 6 (12:51):
We had to catch a little bit short today because
of the breaking news, but I appreciate you being here man.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
Thanks so thanks for having me today. Appreciate good things
going on, keep going, keep doing good stuff.

Speaker 6 (12:59):
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Speaker 4 (13:20):
Your career starts here.

Speaker 6 (13:21):
We will take a break and be back State Democratic
Party Chair in delicate. Mike Pushkin is here and of
course Rob Real from his sister station ninety six one KWS.

Speaker 4 (13:29):
We are one week away from Turkey. Drop on our
parking on here.

Speaker 6 (13:32):
We talked Rob about that's and more coming up on
the Voice of Charleston WCCHS.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
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(15:10):
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Speaker 6 (15:26):
Nine twenty two, and you know, all this month we're
doing our part to try to salute veterans because that's
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to join us in saluting the heroes who's served our country.

Speaker 8 (15:37):
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Speaker 4 (15:37):
You can call our text line. As strange as that sounds,
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(16:23):
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out a couple of texts here South Charleston. It says,
it's called out migration. That's why South Charleston is such
a success. The big news, of course, this morning, just

(16:43):
broke about thirty minutes or so ago. Governor Patrick Morrissey says,
approximately six a m. This morning, water levels and the
rolling thunder mind Nicholas County receded sufficiently enough for rescue
crews to safely enter, and at seven thirty seven this morning,
a one one two man team located the body of
the missing minor. He was a foreman by the name

(17:04):
of Steve Lipskomb. We don't have any further information about that,
but his body was recovered, uh this morning. So stay
Democratic Party chair and delicate.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Mike Pushkin is here. Mike, I want to start with that.

Speaker 6 (17:17):
Give you an opportunity to weigh in on the death
of mister Lipskim And they discovered his body this morning.

Speaker 7 (17:22):
Yeah, that's just devastating news. I'm so sorry to hear
about that young man who was just going to work
to earn a living and has this sort of tragic end. Uh,
And you know, deep in that mind and uh, you know,
I'm just so sorry for his family and friends and

(17:42):
loved ones. It's devastating.

Speaker 6 (17:45):
Yeah, and it's a time when you know, we can
have our differences, and we frequently do in West Virginia
and across the country. But one of the things that
I think I like to think anyway, maybe I'm gonna,
you know, an optimist here, but one of the things
that I like to think, uh, is that West Virginians
can put things aside for a moment, you know, and uh,

(18:07):
and to grief because that was we don't know anything
about his name. He was a twenty year mind form.
And we do know that we know his name, presuming
family and things of that nature. And Republican Democrat, liberal
conservative on this issue, we can all come together. We all,
we we all, we all, we all grieve that.

Speaker 7 (18:22):
It absolutely doesn't doesn't matter what your ideology is in
times like like this. This is just uh, a guy
who is just going to work to make a living
and met this tragic end.

Speaker 8 (18:32):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (18:33):
And it's it's it's horrible, and it's just it's a
very dangerous job. And we keep that in mind. Yeah,
they're just you know, putting on those you know, their
boots every day, going to work to make sure that
America has power and uh and oftentimes risk their lives
and doing so.

Speaker 6 (18:47):
And we don't want again. There will be a full
investigation as to what happened as far as how this happened,
and and you know, uh, you know, the did he
suffered It was a sudden We don't we're not really
worried about that.

Speaker 14 (18:59):
Now.

Speaker 4 (18:59):
We can get into that a little.

Speaker 6 (19:00):
Bit later as there should be. But yeah, and there
and there will. The family deserves that and everybody deserves that.
But uh, I think the fact that, knowing what I
know about the coal mining industry, if he were a
if he was a foreman, and this has happened so
many times and other mind tragedies in the past, foreman's
are normally the last ones outbody. They take care of
their men, uh first and then And I don't know

(19:22):
if that's what happened in this case, but if I
were a betting person, I would say that's probably what
happened in this case. But well, we'll find all that
letter tragic news. Yeah, definitely, And indeed I do want
to mention here just uh, just real quickly. You and
I had an opportunity last night to attend a great
event here in Charleston, the Charleston Urban Works URBANID Awards,
honoring some great businesses and individuals doing good stuff here

(19:44):
and Charleston. Great to see the late Kitty Duly honored,
as well as the big award going to Adam Crason
of ZMN Architects and Engineers Woody Woods and I got
the MC the event. It was a great event last
night and you we weren't hanging out together just so
you know, we just happened to be there.

Speaker 7 (19:59):
That's the same.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
We hung out a little bit, and we did hang
out a little bit last night.

Speaker 7 (20:02):
Bit.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
But it was a great event for Charleston.

Speaker 7 (20:04):
It is and it always is. And Charleston Urban Works
does such a great job of lifting up small businesses
and you know, businesses that have been here a while,
new businesses, and that's a great night each year for
the urban Ide Awards to honor the city of Charleston
and the people that make this city so great. The
mayor was in attendance, of course, she presented. Uh, the
you know, the urban Ide Award that you mentioned went

(20:26):
to Adam Crayson who zmm does you know you know,
rebuilt the Charleston Skyline really completely another style of Charleston. Yeah,
and just done great work for the community. And of course, yeah,
we honored Kitty Dooley. Uh unfortunately, you know, posthumously honored
Kitty Dooley that we lost just recently. And what a

(20:46):
great person and an advocate for for Charleston and all
of West Virginia, just you know, people everywhere that she
was a real champion for justice and and uh, you
know somebody I considered a good friend and somebody I
often called for advice on things, and she is going
to be missed, but she was definitely deserving of the
honor that she received last night. All right, so the

(21:07):
shutdown is over, Yes, it is for now. For now.
You know, I will say I disagree with the If
you want to come and put up air quotes here,
you can't see them on the radio. Was the strategy
of the seven Democrats and the one Independent that I felt, well,
I think we could have gotten a deal on healthcare.

(21:29):
And that's what's important. West Virginians are set to see
the largest premium increases in the entire country. It's not
just going to affect the folks in the marketplace, because
when you're talking about increases that high, when you have,
you know, a small business owner or an independent contractors
whose premium goes from four hundred some dollars a month
to two thousand some dollars a month, what's going to

(21:50):
happen is they're going to cease to be insured. They're
not going to be Nobody can afford that, and that's
going to pull people out of the pool and cause
everybody's premiums to go up. It is a crime. That's
why it is so disappointing to see this, uh, you know,
this one beautiful bill whatever you want to call it,
which is what we're really talking about. To see that
not just supported by Jim Justice and Shelley Moore Capito

(22:12):
and Carol Miller and Riley Moore, but they were real
champions for it, and it's going to disproportionately hurt West Virginians.
But yes, the the the good news is that you know,
the snap benefits should go out, Federal employees are going
back to work, air traffic controllers going back to work.
It's safer to fly. That's all good news. And also
it brought the House of Representatives back in. And what

(22:35):
did we see yesterday is the House Oversight Committee released
a huge drop of emails that was it was horrible
and just disgusting and put the President in I mean,
placed him at Jeffrey Epstein's house exactly what it said,
spent hours with one of the victims, victims meaning girls,

(22:58):
not young women, but girls who are trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein.
And it shows that the president not only knew about it,
but he was participating in it.

Speaker 6 (23:07):
And you know what the Republicans are going to say, though,
is that this was cherry picked, that they that they
that it was just starting to.

Speaker 7 (23:12):
Course, they're going to release the they released ten thousand
emails yesterday. Okay. Of course, the ones that people are
talking about are the ones that implicate the you know,
chief executive of the United States. Understood, he's the president.
That's why people are talking about that. But in all
the other emails that were released by the Republicans, there's
nothing in there that exonerates him. He said, And I'll

(23:33):
tell you, I would love to take calls and texts
over this too, because I don't see how you defend this.
I really don't, Okay.

Speaker 6 (23:39):
And again, that's one of the things I that I
respect about you, one of the few, I'm kidding. One
of the things I do respect about you is when
you come and you sit down this microphone, you always say,
I'll take phone calls and I'll take texts, So we'll
so they're there are open open phone lines. If you'd
like to talk to mister Pushkin this morning, you are
certainly more than welcome to the shows.

Speaker 7 (23:58):
If anything that shows that they're a was a real
relationship between President Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, they were more
than just acquaintance suspense at his house. He says he
kicked him victim and he and he did. The President
did say that he kicked.

Speaker 6 (24:12):
Out uh Epstein, Uh, he kicked him off mar A
Lago one.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
At one point he said that.

Speaker 7 (24:18):
No, his press secretary said that yesterday. The president he
said that for varying reasons, there were some First it
was over a business deal, Okay, then it changed, then
it was still employees. Yeah, because they were taking girls
who worked at mar A Lago and taking them to
Epstein is that And that was in the emails yesterday.
He said he knew about the girls. That's why he

(24:39):
asked uh, uh, I don't know pronounce your name, Maxwell.

Speaker 6 (24:42):
Asked her to sorry, had just asked her to asked
her to stop, asked her to stop what taking And
I'm not going to say they're young women.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
They're not.

Speaker 7 (24:51):
They were girls. They're underage girls and taking them from
mar A Lago to Epstein Island. So that's what he
kicked them out over. There is nothing in there that exonnery.
It's this president all.

Speaker 6 (25:01):
Right, Well, if you want to weigh in on it.
You're more than welcome to. I have a text here
for you. It says, can you ask Pushkin if the
Democrats are the Washington generals the Republican's Harlem globetrotters right now,
they seem like paid opposition there to give people the
illusion of choice.

Speaker 7 (25:16):
Well, I would say that the Washington Look, I love
the globetrotters, and the Washington generals never win. But I'd say,
look what happened last Tuesday. So I'd say, well, no,
we're not the Washington generals. Okay, not even the Washington commanders.
We've been more than that.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
Pushkin would make a better governor than the one we
have now. At least he's from West Virginia to the
texture hard to get right here in Charleston. Somebody's got
you running for governor.

Speaker 7 (25:41):
Well we'll talk later. Really, the governor's not up for
re election this year. I'm focused on twenty twenty six
and giving voters choices up and down the ballot, and
we'll see what happens. If you look at what happened
in neighboring Virginia, every single county in virgin and your
trended Democratic last week. So we like our chances here.

(26:05):
The important thing is to give voters choices, and that's
what we plan to do Texas.

Speaker 6 (26:10):
Very few people care about any that's talking about the
Ebstein files. I mean, I don't like Trump, but this
isn't even a story and won't move the needle one bit.

Speaker 7 (26:18):
I disagree. I think, first of all, we're talking about
children who are victims of sex trafficking. I think that
we should care about this, and I think a lot
of people do care about this. I'll tell you one
person who really cares about it, and that's President Trump.
And that's why he's trying to block the release of

(26:38):
all of this information. That's why he has his FBI director,
Cash Battel, who has come a long way on this
issue since before he became the director of the FBI,
he was screaming for the to release the files. But
now he's singing a different too, now that he's in
a position of power. So Cash Btel and Pam Bondi,
the Attorney General, supposed to be working for us. Apparently

(27:00):
last night they had pulled a member of course, yesterday
they pulled a Member of Congress Bobert into the situation
room to try to coerce her to pull her name
off of that discharge petition, which which she didn't. And
now because they swore in the new congresswoman from Arizona,
they had the required amount of names on the discharge

(27:22):
position to bring a vote to the floor. I will
say I'm disappointed that Carol Miller and Riley Moore did
not sign that petition, but they will have a chance
to redeem themselves because there is going to be a
full vote and you'll see how many Republicans do care
about it for your text her there because there I
think a lot of Republicans are going to vote to

(27:43):
release those files and then will it will move to
the Senate and then we'll see how our senators vote.
We'll see how Jim Justice votes on that. What would
you saybody who was a high school girls basketball coach.
Let's see if he you know, protects you know, the
girls that he used to coach and votes the right
way on And we'll see how she any more capital
votes on this if they released the information. Uh so

(28:04):
these victims can have.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
Just what would you say to those that say, look that?
And then and I'm not necessarily.

Speaker 6 (28:09):
Agreeing with this, but there will be those that say
that when they're not by an administration that they could
have also released them as well.

Speaker 7 (28:15):
Well, not this information that came out yesterday. I don't
believe they had it. And first of all, it was
part of a of a pending court case I believe
against Maxwell. And uh. This this this new data dump
came from the Epstein estate and of course they didn't
have that, you know, before he was murdered, I'm sorry,
before he committed suicide. Uh. And it's just something that

(28:38):
they that they more recently had. But you know what
the point is, it should be released as soon as
they had. It should be released. It should be released now.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
And you and you as a state, I don't care
who is on they're going to ask, Yes, I don't
care Republican.

Speaker 7 (28:51):
I remember if they're if they're implicated on there, they
should face the consequence.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
I respect that.

Speaker 6 (28:57):
But Dave Allen showing five eighty LIVEE has brought to
you part by fresh Air Field Tay's Valley Fresh Air
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says Pushkin, there's no hope for magas they're so deep
in the cult, there's nothing that will change their minds.

Speaker 7 (29:15):
Well, I think a lot of the MAGA movement was
calling for the release of the Emstein files. I mean,
I know Cash Pateel, did, I know jd Vance did,
Pam BONDI did. But they're not all now singing a
different tune. So I think a lot of people that
consider themselves part of the MAGA movement would definitely be
for the protection of children and to bring justice to pedophiles.

(29:37):
So I disagree with that take. I think there are
a lot of people that are that could consider themselves
MAGA that agree with me on this that we should
need to release the files, get all the information that
the cards fall, they where they lie, and prosecute those
who are guilty sex as.

Speaker 6 (29:52):
Republicans don't care that the sex abuser is a sex
abuser who party with sex trafficking pedophiles. Republicans would gladly
let Trump abuse their kids, wives, do moms, et cetera.
There's video of Trump partying with Epstein. Trump said it
was fun to party with Epstein. Republicans have no honor
or integrity, says a Texter. All right, somebody sent me
a big graph here. It's really hard for me to
read those on the air. I do, I do appreciate it,

(30:15):
but I'll take a look at that later. Tex says
both parties will be devastated if that list is released.

Speaker 7 (30:24):
Release it.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
That's what that's released.

Speaker 7 (30:26):
I'm a machir of the West Virginia Democratic Party. I'm
for I'll go on the record. Release it everything that
you have.

Speaker 6 (30:32):
Texas Florida guy here, tell Mike there's nothing bad in
the files on Trump, because the Democrats would have released
anything bad before the election. The girl of the story
said Trump did nothing wrong, asid Maxwell.

Speaker 7 (30:42):
And she's no longer with us. The girl in the story, unfortunately,
she took her own life.

Speaker 6 (30:50):
Timbership proposed as a textra to release the Epstein files yesterday.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
Democrats blocked it.

Speaker 15 (30:55):
There.

Speaker 7 (30:55):
Well, that was let's talk about that. He was doing
that so they wouldn't have to go on record. The
Democrats want a roll call vote because people need to
go on the record. We need to know how Riley
Moore votes on this. We need to know how Carol
Miller votes on this. So that was a cowardly move
to try to do a voice vote. I'm in the legislature.
I understand what that means. That means nobody goes on

(31:15):
the record on how they vote, and they can just
cower in the back of the room and not say
anything and let it pass without their vote because they're
afraid of the president. Instead of doing their job and
standing up to protect children, they're afraid of this president.
So no, they need to go on the record, and
that was the right call. We're going to get a vote.
It's it's the House rules. The petition had enough signatures

(31:37):
without Riley Moore's signature, without Carol Miller's signature, because of
they seated the congresswoman who's elected what seven weeks ago,
because they finally seated her, they had enough. Yeah, they
seated her. Yesterday she signed a petition and now there
will be a vote, and it will be a roll
call vote.

Speaker 6 (31:54):
Tex says Democrats hid the name of the victim of
the Epstein emails. This is her testimony exonerating President Trump.
They did not want the public to see it. Where
was your demands to release it.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
Oliver Biden.

Speaker 7 (32:04):
It's nothing in there that exonerates President Trump. If there
was he would be putting it on government websites.

Speaker 6 (32:11):
Text says, hold on a second, do you thank god?
There are still a few Democrats that had some common
sense that helped the government to open up. This is
why the Democrats in West Virginia are minority in leadership.

Speaker 7 (32:25):
I think the point is the healthcare issue, and Republicans
need to go to the table and I hope they
hold their end of the bargain and take a vote
on extending the subsidies and the tax credits for the
Affordable Care Act. Otherwise a whole lot of West Virginians
are not going to be able to see a doctor
if they get sick. They're going to be the healthcare

(32:45):
will not be affordable for them. When you're talking about
going from roughly four hundred dollars a month, and I've
heard from constituents they told me these exact numbers, around
four hundred dollars a month. With the subsidies, you lose those,
it goes up to over two thousand dollars a month.
Nobody can afford that. Nobody can afford that, and that's
a crisis, and that's what the fight was about. So
I think it was a mistake to go to the

(33:09):
table without you know, without making that getting a promise
of that, because I don't think the Republicans are going
to make.

Speaker 6 (33:15):
So you have an issue with the Fetterman and some
of the others. That's what you're saying, right, You don't
you tend to decide. I don't want to put words, but
you tend to decide with some of the.

Speaker 7 (33:24):
Other with the majority of Democrats kind of just incentive
but across the Conkamp all right, so we care about people,
let me finish, care about people's access to health.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
Let me finish. Text here and I got to get
you on the road.

Speaker 6 (33:33):
Text says Dave. Mike needs to get out of politics.
He's like a broken record. Anything to put down President
Trump and the Republicans and the people.

Speaker 7 (33:38):
Don't hey read the emails, read what was release and
hadn't come back and tell me that you support that.
It's disgusting.

Speaker 4 (33:46):
The Democrats say, this is about protecting children.

Speaker 6 (33:48):
The Democrats says, the texture made the United States citizens
suffer for forty three days. Thankful a few Democrats couldn't
torture the citizens anymore and voted to open up the
government Texas. Thank you, Mike Pushkin shame on Congress, unwilling
and able to do their job. As one representative said,
they had a plan for healthcare. To date, they have
done nothing to take away affordable health insurance during open enrollment.
It's cruel and pathetic, pathetic on all.

Speaker 7 (34:09):
Of them in there. The Republicans have had fifteen years
to come up with a better plan than the ACA.
Fifteen years and they've had what we say in my culture,
bubcuss bubcus. That's what they first time that's ever been
said on the show. Right, I'm glad I could be
the first great barriers on here. But they've come up
with absolutely nothing. For those of you that don't speak
you it ish out there. It means nothing. They got nothing,

(34:31):
nothing on healthcare. Fifteen years, they've had a chance to
come up with a plan.

Speaker 6 (34:35):
All right, two more texts here at Texas. Do you
think that the government should have remained closed?

Speaker 7 (34:40):
I think that the Republicans need to come to the
table on healthcare. And I think that Shelley Moore Capito
and Jim Justice and Riley Moore and Carol Miller need
to realize that their state, the state that they are
supposed to be representing, West Virginia is going to be
the most devastated by this failure to provide a plan

(35:02):
on healthcare, to let these subsidies just run out, and
we are going to see premium skyrocket in this state
and a lot of people aren't going to be able
to see a doctor, They're not going to be able
to get preventative care. It is a crisis for this
state and I think it needs to be treated that way,
and these folks need to do something.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
My final text.

Speaker 6 (35:20):
They were calling for the release when Biden and the
Clintons were thought to be on it. Magas didn't think
Trump was in it because they wear blinders and Republicans
care about children. Question mark, they litigated against funding snap
final Here's.

Speaker 7 (35:31):
The proof right here. If this exonerated Trump, he would
be releasing it. Instead, he's doing everything that he can
to block it. He's trying to block it. He's having
his director of the FBI and his Attorney General call
in Lauren Bobert to the situation room, a room that
is reserved for whin there's a war, actual war crisis,

(35:52):
and are calling her into the situation room to try
to bully her and taking her name off of that
petition and thankfully she stood up to them, like a
lot of Repubs lookings are going to do. You're going
to see this, A lot of them are going to
stand up to them because they know it's wrong. This
is about protecting children, that's it. Not about protecting the
President of the United States. Is about justice.

Speaker 6 (36:11):
All right, We got to leave it there. Appreciate you
being here, man, Thanks thanks for having me on. It's
nine forty three. But Dave Alan Chowing five eighty Live
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Speaker 4 (39:02):
Welcome back to the show.

Speaker 6 (39:03):
Fourteen minutes away from Tamba Day Island Show on five
Adyeline Brown to you part by your hometown baseball team,
the Charleston Dirty Birds, the Selango Law Light The Night
returns to go Mark Ballpark the twenty first of November,
running through January. First, pick up your tickets in advance,
and please, please please get your tickets in advance. That's
what they're asking you to do. Visit Dblightthnight dot com
for more information. Of course, the big story this morning

(39:23):
within breaking within the last hour, so the body of
that miner Nicholas County was found seven thirty seven am.
A two man team located to the body of the
missing miner who was Foreman Steve Lipscomb, trapped in the
Rolling thunder mine in Nicholas County on Saturday. And you
know the story by now. The Governor and the first
Lady said in their statement they are heartbroken to learn

(39:45):
of the tragic loss. Keeping mister Lipscomb's family and friends
in prayers, and more details are going to come out
about this later. It was twenty years of experience mister
Lipscomb had, and it is believed and there are various
various places that are reporting this that that he in

(40:05):
then I and I and I said this, it's it's been.
It's believed that he died in saving his man, because
that's what that's what my informant do, and that's one
hundred percent what they do. You see the military operations,
you see it in whatever. And so they're gonna have
more in that coming up on talk Line at ten
o six this morning. Of course, Amanda and I will
have more in that coming up on Metro News midday

(40:27):
as well. Let me knock out a couple of texts
before I introduced a man who has a giant turkey
on his head in the studio textas what a croc.
Obamacare was supposed to be the holy grail of healthcare
that solved all this. Remember, if you like your plan,
you keep your plan. If you like your doctor, you
keep your doctor. We got to pass the bill to
see what's in it. Families are going to save twenty
five hundred dollars a year. Get out of here, says

(40:48):
a textra text says it's not it was not testimony. Uh,
it's an email. The name is redacted to protect the victim.
Keep loving the sex abuser who's an obvious pedophile. Maga
You're in a cult, says a texture. G Mike sounds
a little bit like you all the ones that are
scared of the president, and now once again you think

(41:10):
that you actually have something to get him on. As
a texture, millions of people says the texture of gain
Medicaid coverage through Affordable Healthcare Acts or ACA. That's what
it's called your medical insurance.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
The skyrocket Medicaid doesn't cover the cost of care, says
a texture. Text says, good morning, Dave.

Speaker 6 (41:26):
It's a great morning where I have managed to not
be a pedophile deviant, a skill not shared with Donald J. Trump,
Peter Thiel, former Prince Andrew the former Secretary of Treasury, Summers,
New York Times.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
Reporters, et cetera.

Speaker 6 (41:38):
It's the GOP realizing or maybe yet that Epstein is
just another Trump catch and kill operational strategy he has
used for years as a texture. But Dave aland showing
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(42:01):
Check out Pinnacle Corp dot NAP because what you don't
know can't hurts you. Rob Reel from her sister station
ninety six one KWS joins us in studio this morning.
I'm having a serious throwdown discussion here with the Democratic
Party chair Mike Pushkin, and I look through the window
and there's a giant turkey staring through the glass at me.
And the first thing I thought was, don't do shrooms

(42:23):
before you go on the air, Dave. And then I realized, Okay,
it's Rob Reel and a turkey hat. So of course,
of course I'd be the one to have a turkey hat.
What's interesting about this one stand by for double barrel
to obscure reference. It appears as though the Cocoa Puff's
mascot Sonny had a one night stand with the turkey
Turki Bird from Georgia of the Jungle. That's that may

(42:45):
be the most obscure reverence Upberk, thank you, Resk. You
you won the obscure Championship belt today. So turkey drop
have been one week from today in our parking lot
here at eleven eleven Virginia Street, use and Charleston.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
You know the routine by now.

Speaker 6 (42:58):
We set up the tents, we set up the vans,
and we send our staff outside as best we can.
We always got somebody out there, but you know there's
that whole radio thing gets in the way sometimes seven
am until six pm. Next Thursday, we're asking people to
bring us turkeys. Just that's the hardest part to get
for the holiday meal is the frozen turkey, because well

(43:19):
it's perishable, and it takes up a lot of space
and it's the most expensive thing. So food banks tend
to do very well this time of year with all
of the non perishable and the side type stuff. But
we want to get turkeys on tables and politics aside.
Even with you know, bills being voted on and signed,

(43:40):
it still takes a while to get a stopped aircraft
carrier to start moving again. And that's what the federal
government is. It is an aircraft carrier and it's been
dead in the water for forty three days and it's
going to take some time to get that moving. So
this is going to be an even tougher year for
lots of folks here in West Virginia. And we are

(44:01):
in no politics zone up real early on ninety six
to one kws.

Speaker 4 (44:05):
So I just want to feed people, That's all I
want to do. I want to feed people on some
reasons or whatever. And this is something I mean, you know,
this is not as you said.

Speaker 6 (44:15):
It's this has been put on steroids because of the
government shut down, all right, However, we've been doing things
similar to this for some time because this people are
hungry in West Virginia before this ever happened. This is
our third year of the drive through Turkey Drop. App
Latch and Power Company has come on board, so app
Co is powering it.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
Union Mission is our partner. They do all the heavy lifting.

Speaker 6 (44:37):
And I don't just mean the frozen turkeys that you
hand us through the window, or maybe you've got a
bunch in the back.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
You can just pop the hatch.

Speaker 6 (44:43):
You do not have to get out of your nice, warm,
comfortable vehicle. We will do all of the work of
taking the turkeys and stacking them. Cash and check donations
are always warmly accepted.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
Green is always the right color.

Speaker 6 (44:56):
Whatever you can spare is always the right size because
let me tell you, Jason and everybody at Union Mission, boy.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
Can they stretch those dollar donations. I mean they will.
They're good at it.

Speaker 6 (45:05):
I mean yeah, those organizations like Union Mission and others,
and you know, whether it's the Feeding Hunger Food Bank
or whatever, these folks do a lot better with strat
Now I want to have them come do my grocery
shopping for me, because they're a whole lot better at
it rob than what we are. And I can cite
all of the data that says how much farther they
can make the money go. I also understand that it

(45:27):
is human nature to want to have something tangible to handover.
That's that's why we're doing the frozen turkeys. And for
those of you playing our home game, yes, it's kind
of inspired by the Turkeys Away episode of w KRP
in Cincinnati.

Speaker 4 (45:41):
That's the turkey drop of it all. But you just you.

Speaker 6 (45:44):
Swing through our parking lot. It will not take you long.
So as you're as you're getting ready to do maybe
your weekend grocery shopping, maybe you're already planning your own
Thanksgiving feast and starting to get the things. If you're smart,
you are, Yeah, you don't want to be shopping on
Wednesday or Thursday morning, but go ahead and yeah, well
it'll look like a bomb went off at your local store.

(46:06):
But also it takes a while for the turkey to thaw.
We we have timed out the best arc of how
to use these turkeys to have them for folks ready
for Thanksgiving, and the Thursday before is the day to
do it. And so for our third go round, I
would love for this to be our biggest year, all right, and.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
It'll be next Thursday.

Speaker 6 (46:25):
We wanted to go ahead make as you said, people
are doing grocery shopping this weekend. We want to go
ahead and get an under schedule. And we're out on
the parking. All of our stations are this is kind
of your baby, but we all but we all help. Yes,
so the mountain to beat B one hundred. We're all
going to be out there, you know, seven am to
six pm next week.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
I was looking at that for what it's worth.

Speaker 6 (46:43):
The extended forecast next Thursday a slight chance of ran
in sixty one. It doesn't matter whether it snows whatever.
We're going to be out there anyway.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
All right. Quick text for you, hey.

Speaker 6 (46:54):
Guys, Kroger frozen whole turkeys are on sale now for
only seventy nine cents a pound that started yet yesterday.
Not sure that the twenty five dollar purchase is required.
I know it is for the ninety nine cents per
pound butterballs Pigley Wiggley twenty nine cents a pound with
a fifty dollars purchase.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Wherever you shop there is a deal on turkeys.

Speaker 6 (47:11):
I hope that, I hope that garage freezer has enough
room for a couple to hang on for a week.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
And we'll see you on Thursday.

Speaker 6 (47:18):
All right, thanks a lot, Rob, We got to take
a break with Dave Allen Show on five Adyline broad too.
Impired by Live Healthy West Virginia presented by WVU Medisine,
a podcast promoting healthier lifestyle. Is going to be on
the State Check app of latest episodes, wv metronews dot
com of the podcast menu. Back after this on the
Voice of Charleston WCCHS. Brought to you by the Eric
Jtar Family Businesses. Eric Jtar Family Businesses bring first class

(47:40):
businesses to your community.

Speaker 18 (47:42):
I'm John Carruthers, the owner of Best Virginia Heating and Cooling.
I'm born and raised right here in West Virginia. I've
got three daughters, so I absolutely care who comes into
my home. Every technician we send to your home has
been drug tested and background check. I guarantee the best
client experience or your money back. We have the best
team and the best processes that built around a FOB

(48:03):
star experience. Call Best Virginia today at six' eight one
six' five five one two.

Speaker 10 (48:10):
One four what if the market drops after? You retire
what if healthcare costs continue? To rise what if you outlive?
Your savings if these questions keep you up, At night
you're not alone and you don't have to figure it.
Out alone i'm jombered Out With Fourth avenue FINANCIAL and
i specialize in retirement. Income planning let's turn your what
ifs into a plan you can. Count on schedule your
free consultation Today At Fourth avenue financial.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Dot Com Fourth.

Speaker 10 (48:33):
Avenue Financial Retirement Done.

Speaker 5 (48:35):
Right securities offered THROUGH Genap Coo Financial Incorporated Member Finracipic
advisory services Offer Through Jennibuca.

Speaker 19 (48:40):
Advisors incorporated seasons, are changing the kids are back in
school and cooler weather is on, the way but one
thing that always remains consistent is the car buying Experience
At walker's Chevrolet. In nitro, you see That's because Gene
and ryan built their business the old fashioned way by.
Making friends there are no, Gimmickser, games walker, just honest,

(49:01):
fair deals and the Process at walker is. Remarkably simple
they help you find a vehicle that you love and
a deal that makes. You smile and. Don't forget walker
is still buying. Cars Too now all makes and models,
are welcome and they'll give you a top dollar, for
it even if you plan to buy.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Somewhere else but why? Would you?

Speaker 19 (49:19):
You know it's good to know that in a world
full of, constant change there are some things that remain
consistent and that some car dealers still believe in treating
you like a friend with a smile AND A handshakee
Head To walker Chevrolet and nitro in the shadow Of
The interstate bridge just Off the nitro EXIT of i.
Sixty Four, walker chevrolet, making friends one deal at.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
A time.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
Welcome back to.

Speaker 6 (49:49):
The show three minutes away from Ten To Dave alan
show on FIVE E. D live browd to you Part
Abou Husbands pizza, This month get a large Et anditch.
Pepperoni pizza add an eight inch chocolate. Chip cookie twenty
three Ninety Nine find you're. Nearest house thanks For delivery
dinam or pick up At usins pizza. Dot, com also
do want to remind you that we still have those
tabs available WITH the. Qr, CODE actually i should say
At wv metro news. Dot com if you'd like to
make a donation To The Facing Hunger food Bank or

(50:11):
Mouth And Air, food bank you can go To Wv
metro news dot com and SCAN the. Qr code W
V Rc media cares About. The community TEXT says i
remember WHEN the aca, Was passed republicans did everything they
could to make. It terrible definitely a team Effort give
americans terrible. Healthcare options Text Says Heil king trump four. More,
years well it's not exactly four, MORE. Years tj it's

(50:32):
not going to be four more years.

Speaker 4 (50:34):
If, he's king it'll be until.

Speaker 6 (50:35):
He, does, YEAH okay i hain't doing, My friend.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
I'm good how are? You well i'm.

Speaker 6 (50:41):
Doing well we started the show with, you know breaking
News With. JEFF jenkins I know jeff's going to come
on with, you guys and you guys are going to.
Cover it the death Of the now the body has
been recovered of the coal Miner Mister lipscombe nicholas county.
That coming during the seven o'clock hour, this Morning the
governor's out with. The statement there'll be more statements on
the throughout. The day but, you know it was not

(51:03):
the outcome obviously that. Anyone wanted and the investigations will.
Will continue but your. Thoughts here you come from a
coal mining area JUST like. I do, i mean this
Hits Every, WEST.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
Virginia tj but for those of us that are from
coal country families were all, in mining it hits a
little closer.

Speaker 15 (51:23):
To home you go underground and you take, a risk you,
know that and the brave men and women that do
that take a risk, every day and they do that
to be able to provide a good life for. Their
family so we turn our thoughts to the. Grieving family
we pray for peace for that family through, this tragedy
that they can somehow find some peace as they deal

(51:46):
with what. Has HAPPENED and i think we also turn
to understand what, Has happened how did this come? To
be why didn't he make? It out where did this water?
Come from did we know the water?

Speaker 7 (51:58):
Was there.

Speaker 15 (52:00):
Those ARE questions i think that, deserve answers and for
the family and for, the industry because you need to
learn from these incidents as much as you can to.

Speaker 6 (52:08):
Make, them say as tragic as it is to say
every innovation that the coal mining industry has made a
great deal, Of them i'll say have come from a.
Previous tragedy and that's true of, any industry as, you
know sure absolutely learn.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
This day, all right what else you got on the?

Speaker 15 (52:21):
SHOW Today Wvu President mike benson at ten oh six.
Joins us we'll talk a little bit about the governor's.
Announcement today he Did announce dave a new natural gas fired,
power plants a merchant Plant In, harrison county six hundred
and twenty five, mega wants so that's the second natural
gas plant as many weeks that have. Been announced we'll
get into that talk With the Committee For responsible government
on this shutdown deal and, the budget that and much

(52:43):
much more.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
Coming up at ten.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
Oh six i'll be back later Today With Metro news
midday powered By A selingo law With thirteen News in
NightLive Anchor manda Bear and i'll see you then, till
then have fun and.

Speaker 4 (52:51):
Love somebody.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Mm hmmmm why W H s a ninety six point
five That's in charleston.

Speaker 4 (53:06):
One oh four Point Five, cross lane A w vrc.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Media station

Speaker 4 (53:11):
We're proud to live, here too
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