October 30, 2025 • 55 mins
The conversation continues with guest Attorney Brandon Lawhead discussing the implications of sports gambling, player/coach guest appearances, fantasty leagues, and more. Is money ruining sports? Let's Talk! With hosts Carl Lee and Hollis Lewis.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yeah, you gotta work.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You gotta work, ry Shin. It's mine gotta show. Everybody
is my sign. You gotta wurk cry shine another mind.
I'm trying to die because day line don't tell you
gotta burk.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Welcome to Let's Talk with carl Lee and frequent guest
hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
(00:43):
by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
on Let's Talk.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
and we're missing one of our our co hosts, Lise
ODI's out today, but we do have Hollis Lewis and
Hello and Hollan's.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
One of the interesting things today.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Of the topic that we're gonna kind of address is
one that everybody probably knows and trying to figure out
it's a it's it's a lot of legal stuff involved
that I don't think the average person really knows. So
tell me a little bit about what you what, what
(01:30):
you what you're thinking, and then we've got a guest
that i'll introduce in just a second.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I just want to kind of see where you are
just as an overview.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, as you mentioned, there's a lot of illegal things
as far as you know criminality and also you know
policies within specifically the of the n b A. And
while these two stories are sort of cross reference between
one another, they're actually two individual charges. So you have
Chauncey Billups, who is alleged to have participated or been
(02:02):
a part of underground poker operations in which the games
were quote unquote rigged. And you have Damon Jones, who
was allegedly given insider information along with Terry Roseer of
the I think Damon Jones was a former player and
Terry Roseier is with the with the Miami Heat. So
these are two different issues as far as going on,
(02:25):
but they all revolve around the same gambling. Yes, and again,
just before we get started, coming from a legal background,
I always like to pit out this disclaimer that you know,
we're talking about this from an analysis standpoint to trying
to see, you know, how this is going to affect
things moving forward, the bigger question of gambling. But all
(02:47):
the individuals which we are mentioning are innocent until proven guilty.
So as of now, these are just charges and these
individuals are innocent.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
All right, So.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I'm glad you gave that that disclaimer there. So everybody
kind of knows that when you play sports, there's usually
somebody that's in and around you to kind of to
manage you.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And one of.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And today I have Brandon Lawhead, who is a guy
who I ended up meeting like right at the end
of my career, and he did a lot of things
to help me make the transition, to financially make the transition,
and all of those kind of things. So I and
so I thought about, because of all of this stuff
(03:34):
that's happening, I thought he would be a great guest.
So I wanted to make sure that I if I
could get him, and I do have him.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So he's on the phone. So Brandon say hello to everybody.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Hello, everybody, Hell you, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So so Brandon, I'm going to like jump right into
this thing, because like I have no legal background of
any anything that can make any kind of really true claim.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But I'm gonna go back and say, back in.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
The day, you know, when we were in Minneapolis and
we you saw all the games, you were part of it.
You were representing people I'm playing and all of that
kind of stuff. And I knew that, and everybody knew
that gambling was kind of the off. You could that
it was the no No of football. And I know
(04:28):
we're talking about basketball. But do you when you think
about this, where is the agent in this thing?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Because what what I mean, wouldn't you be able to
have stepped in or said something or do these guys
not have them now or or what do you what's
your thought?
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Well, I think first of all, I wanted to maybe
step back. You mentioned, you know what it was like
in your era, and in your era, Pete Roselle was
the commissioner. Pete Roselle in the NFL wanted nothing to
do with gambling. He wanted to go as far away
(05:10):
from it as he could. Even CBS, you know member
that used to have Jimmy the Creek on, Yeah, and
who was the guy that was setting the line embedding.
But you know, they were very careful. They never said
like three points or you know, seven points. They never
used points. They would say, you know, I think the
Vikings will win by a field goal, or I think
(05:31):
they'll win by a touchdown. But they never started putting
points out there because they didn't want the affiliation with gambling.
Of course, that goes back to you know, the Black
Sox and all of the you know stuff that went
on you know earlier so And I think it's interesting
because I was out in New York and Chuck Foreman
(05:55):
was going to be announcing the NFL Draft for the
Minnesota Vikings, and I saw Roger Goodell and we had
lunch with Roger, and Roger was talking about how the
NFL Draft was getting more viewership than you know, the
Super Bowl. Wow, and and and so. And that was
(06:20):
back in twenty thirteen. And of course what's driving that
is fantasy football. Fantasy football is now really a lot
of your viewers. You know, back in the eighties, fans
were much more about my team. My team is the Vikings.
(06:40):
I am, you know, I'm rooting for my Vikings, and
so on and so forth. And now you've got people
that are you know, cheering for individuals because of their
fantasy football team, see and which is good and you know,
and there's a lot of you know, good that comes
out of that. But all these sports agencies have now
(07:04):
you know, I think there was a sense that, uh,
the mafia was basically defeated, you know, based upon the
prosecutions in the eighties and so on and so forth,
and that that wasn't really a problem anymore. And I
think all of the major sports uh you know, leagues
have now really gotten into gambling because there's a lot
(07:27):
of money there and you even see that in the media.
You see the media is now you know, sponsored by
these casinos.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
And a lot of them have their own gaming books,
like esp different things.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
As far as what I'm hearing you say so far,
I think you're talking about the bigger cultural shift that's happening.
And now, you know, gambling is a part of sort
of the sports experience. So so within that frame of mind,
and when we look at these particular stories where you
have guys giving out insider information, you have guys you know,
(08:07):
with with rig games, and I have a specific question
about that. You know what sort of warning or what
sort of a what are you telling your clients about
participating in these sort of activities.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Well, I think, first of all, you know, it is
impossible if this is if you read the indictment and
the complaint. They are using contacts where they can you know,
special contacts where they can see on the back of
the card in alleged you know, fraudulent card games. They're
(08:48):
using various electronic methods to do that. Well, who would
know that, No agent would know it, and no player
would know it, you know, I mean Chauncey Billups if
he's you know, the thing is is that, you know,
people want the experience of playing cards with a great athlete,
(09:08):
you know, so it's like, hey, play poker with Carl Lee.
Well that's cool, that'll be fun. You know, Carl's a
good guy, and so people are you know. So that's
how they're luring or they're getting people to come to
the table, and the athlete's going to get paid and
that's as far as it goes. So if I were
you know, we don't know the facts, right, I think
(09:31):
I would find it very hard to believe that Chauncey
Billups knows that these card games are rigged. I just
find that really hard to believe. I think it's more like, hey,
Chauncey will pay you X number of dollars to come
and do this card game, and Chauncey's like, sure, sounds
(09:51):
good to me. And that's as far as it goes.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
He was because when I read it in it, like
I said, I've read it pretty extensively about it too,
it seemed like when you're talking about, like you know,
even Kevin Garnett or Chauncey, Billups or Damon Jones, those
who have been either mentioned or in or charged in
relation to this scheme, that they were sort of just
the bait. And then you know, you have a whole
(10:13):
slew of other people behind the scenes sort of setting
up the stage for these rigged games.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
But the question from just just.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Wait one question, one thing though on that bait. The
word bait, I've read that, but that's an explosive term
because that's implying that they're part of the scheme. And
I really question that. Okay, I think a lot of
(10:43):
athletes get themselves mixed up with people that are bad,
but the athlete goes in thinking it's it's good and
Let's remember in the indictment itself, the indictment talks about
money laundering. They're using shell company these as fronts for
laundering the money and everything. So I don't know what
(11:04):
the facts are on this, but it could be like, hey,
this is a you know, Sports USA company. We do stuff,
you know, to raise money for kids and youth sports
or whatever. And Chaunsey's like, yeah, cool, that's cool. That
comes good. So we don't know, and I and I
just am I. Most of the time I see in
(11:26):
athletes people that have a good intent and they want
to do well, and they want to use their fame
to help others. And of course, you know, doing a
card game with an athlete is no different than an
autograph session or you know, a conversation or a discussion
(11:47):
type session, where it's just an opportunity for a person
to hang out with an athlete.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So from your opinion, from again what I'm here, and
I think I'm with you on this, your opinion is
probably you know, Chauncey Bill was asked to, hey, host
this card game. We're going to raise money or we
have this business or something that we're doing over here.
Could you come in, guys, want to play with you
so that way we can raise the profile of this game.
(12:13):
And again from your opinion, which is stating is that
Chauncey Billupp probably didn't know all the other things that
were going on behind it, particularly the rigged part of
the game.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Well, and remember this is organized crime that they're charging too, right,
So the organized crime those guys are sitting there, they're
very good at rigging things, right. And I just really
question if Chauncey Billups is going to throw his career
away on a card game. I would say, you know,
(12:46):
he would not do that. And again I know nothing
other than what I've read and my sense in my intuition.
But you know, Chauncey Billups has spent a lifetime and
I'm just using him as an example here. He spent
a lifetime, you know, gaining his reputation and then to
have that, you know, thrown away in this I really
(13:08):
question that.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Let me so let me ask another question is related
to this, and then we can move on to uh,
Damon Jones, because I think those are Damon Jones and
Terry Rose there that those may be a little bit
more concrete, but as far as like because the question
that I have, and I have a criminal law background,
and the question that I have is that if these
(13:29):
are stated to be underground or illegal gaming operations, so
they're illegal in nature, So even to participate them as
just as a player, whether I win or lose, I
am doing something illegal. So what protection would I have
if I'm participating in something illegal and then I get
(13:51):
took from the people who are pitting on this illegal game.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Well, I mean so from an agent standpoint, when I
do a contract for a land one provision in the
contract is that the whoever, the you know, the the
company is that's using the athlete services they warrant and
represent as part of the terms and condition of the
contract that they are following state and federal law. That
(14:18):
I have that in my agreements. Okay, so that no
matter what whatever they're doing that I don't know about,
at the end of the day, in writing in the contract,
they are warranting that whatever they're doing is going to
be done according to laws, so that my clients aren't
getting caught up. And because you don't know, you don't know,
(14:41):
you know, I mean, they're just using the athlete's fame, right,
I mean, that's what they're using and you know, and
that's what they're hiring, frankly, and that's all that the
athlete knows, you know. And so I always, you know,
include that in my agreements because I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
But you know, all I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of
lean to the I'm gonna lean to the other side
for a second, you know. Okay, So Chauncey Bills, Okay,
you're a head coach, okay, and and.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You're out doing whatever, even if it's not.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Straight gambling, that's illegal, it's it's it's something.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
How do you what? What is the expectation for you
if he's coaching me? What?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And I know this is because you know, like we
know what coaches do. Coaches try to be sneaky, like
players try to be sneaky, and you always kind of
find out what they're doing. And if you know that,
if players know that, like like how you see him
in you see him gambling, you see him doing this,
(15:52):
you see him doing that, and then this comes out,
you have no other thought process that he's he's guilty.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
No, but I think you're I think to to to
the point that hasn't been brought up, is that we
don't really know the guys in which Billips was participating
my question.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
But but what I'm saying is.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
If he's involved, if he's gambling, if he's betting, if
he's doing this, and if.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
That's what he's part of, he's not the example he
and again, and this is what this is.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
This is just saying if by any chance he was
part of this, right he.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And and and Brandon.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
You know, like anytime a player sees a coach out somewhere,
like a coach should never be seen out where the
players are.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That's just that's just always been the kind of thing.
How is that happening? Like? What? What? What makes you
think that it's okay?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
I think? I think? And this is the real nexus
and what I was trying to kind of talk about
at the beginning here, And you put your finger right
on the pulse of the issue, Carl. Your generation of
athlete was very much conditioned that, Hey, if there's something
gambling related here, I'm going the other way. I don't
(17:20):
even want to be near it. I don't even want
to touch it. I want nothing to do with it.
But now the leagues have wrapped themselves in, you know, gambling,
and so now it's like, well, hey, I mean these
guys are paying my paycheck really, and so so now
it's like, well, it's it's kind of like, you know,
(17:41):
you know, do you do you do a you know,
some kind of an NFL race where you know, Budweiser
is a sponsor. Well, there would have been a time
where maybe, hey, no, I'm not because that's alcohol. But
the NFL has definitely, you know, said no, we're having
alcohol sponsorships and and everything else. And so now the
(18:04):
athlete's like, well, hey, I mean this is part of
the deal now, and so they kind of just slide
into it. I think, and and and to your point,
I think that's the real thing here. And I think
the leagues if there's going to be gambling, somewhere along
the way, there's going to be organized crime. There's somewhere
(18:26):
along the way there's gonna be fixing. And it's like
they have chosen to do a deal with the devil,
but the devil's going to come back and collect at
some point. And it's a real fine line. And I
don't know, and you know, like they they bet on
things that aren't even like the game, Like, you know,
(18:51):
how long is this guy gonna play or whatever. It's like,
right now, I can tell you for sure bet. The
first sure bet is that when Roger Craig the Hall
the Great forty nine er running Back goes into the
Hall of Fame, Eddie de Barbelow will be his presenter. Now,
maybe that doesn't come true for a variety of reasons,
but that's the kind of bet you could make right now,
(19:13):
right And it's like they allow you to bet on everything.
But when they allow you to bet on everything, it's like, boy,
that really and it's like, you know, so you know,
Roger kind of casually said to me, Yeah, well, Eddie's
going to be my presenter if I ever, you know,
go to the Hall of Fame. Well, okay, did Roger
intend that to be information that's leaked out that people
(19:36):
could use the path? No, he was just he was
just telling me right like. So that's where it really
gets into a slippery slope here, and that.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Leads me to my next question.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Because again we talked about Chohncey Billis, but Terry Rosere
and Damon Jones, part of their indictment is that they
gave inside their information. So to your point, when we
talk about gambling, and we talk about this thing as
far as from a cultural context, how do we escape it?
Because again to your point, and I love how you
(20:08):
framed it, they've made a deal with the devil and
now the devil wants his cut. So if you're coming
up in just an era in the culture where we
not only have you know, grown men who are taking
these bets, but a lot of teams, you know, next
to drug and alcohol and cigarettes abuse, the other thing
we have to worry about is them getting on that
app and constantly betting. And it starts innocently enough with
(20:31):
things like fantasy football. So so I don't know how
you weed it out of here, because again we've seen
what like a couple of years ago with Shay Show
Old Tani, right, we've seen this. We've seen a couple
of football players get long term suspensions due to you know,
this sort of gambling. So what what is far as
(20:51):
an agent standpoint, if you got a young athlete, what
conversations are you having about not getting entwined in this?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Well? And I think you know it's so I'll use
an example. Brett Favre. Brett Favre, you know, had this
you know thing in Mississippi and welfare and blah blah
blah and all that stuff, and and Brett's agent, Bus Cook.
I don't think Bus was really doing stuff for him.
But I know Brett, and Carl knows Brett, and he's
(21:19):
a great guy. He's an absolute stand up guy. And
I really have always felt very badly about that issue
because you know, at first, blush, why is a as
an athlete, you know, engaged in welfare funds? But yet
when you get past that, you start to say, well,
(21:41):
why is the NFL involved in armed forces?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Like the NFL gets paid to honor our military at
halftime things and whatever. Right, So an athlete can very
much look at this and say, well, this is what
the NFL is doing. So hey, I mean, you know,
my name, my likeness. I can go do some speaking
things and so on and so forth and talk about,
(22:06):
you know, pulling yourself up from your bo bootstraps from
you know, poverty and having a great life, and and
you think you're just totally great, you see, And then
you got some guy that you know wants to run
for governor and now he's going to make an example
out of that athlete because see, that's the headlines that
he's going to get his fame on. And so I
(22:27):
really the athletes I've dealt with, they have gotten drawn
into things, and the reason that they use athletes. I
really look at athletes most of the time in these
things as victims because they use athletes because people feel
like they know that athlete even though they don't. Right,
(22:48):
It's like, hey, that's you know that, that's uh, that's
my guy, you know, and I've been cheering for him
for ten years, and yeah, if he's doing it, then
I'll do it. And that's that's why frankly, athletes have sponsorships, right,
is that that that feeling of trust and such. So
it's a real it's just a really dicey road. And
(23:08):
I mean that's where you know, agents you can do
a lot. But look, man, you know, organized crime is
really good at hiding their involvement. They're always like three
or four walls away from stuff. They've got other people.
So to expect an athlete or an agent to flush
(23:30):
that out, I think it's nearly impossible. And I do
think that this gambling thing is really it's just gonna
be a problem for all these professional sports leagues. I
really think the leagues need to basically say, look, you
cannot participate it all at all in any form of gambling,
(23:54):
in any form of anything, period, because I just think
that it's it's a slippery slope and it's gonna bite
you in some way. You didn't even think of it.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Okay, hold that thought. We're gonna take a break because
I want to. I got some more questions related today.
We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
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Speaker 6 (24:13):
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Now back to the conversation.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
All right, So before we took the break, basically a
recommendation that you gave out was that these leagues essentially
need to say go back to the old way, noble gambling,
we're done with it. We're washing our hands. And I
would say, I don't think there's any other way to
sort of do these because the these issues are just
(26:01):
going to start to compound themselves, because again, not only
are we dealing with people who have a lot of
excess money, but we're dealing with the ultimate competitors, right,
We're dealing with athletes at the highest level. These guys,
particularly those athletes with a lot with a lot of money,
once they're playing career ends, they still have that competitive drive.
(26:22):
So you've seen, you know, Charles Barkley talk about going
to the casinos and losing millions, millions of dollars in
black jacket, different things of that nature. We've seen the
Floyd Mayweather's bet hundreds of thousand dollars on boxing matches.
So you know, how does that look as far as leagues,
if you know, if they followed your recommendations to say, hey,
we're just done with it, do you think that's even
(26:43):
feasible with the money that's coming in.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And before you answer that, Brandon, let me ask, let
me add to that. And I think Hollis is alluding
to this too. But like all of the commercials that
are happening during a football game, a basketball game, there,
they're alcohol, their gam laying there.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You know, it's all of the things that you're saying,
don't do.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
But you're taking that money and you're advertising that, and
that's becomes associated with the league, the players, and everybody
who's associated with it.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Am I not? Am I right on that?
Speaker 5 (27:20):
You're absolutely right? And I mean that's there's the The
real problem is that they have taken the money. It
is a lot of money. I thought I read the
Cherry Jones that Draft Kings, fantasy football, you know, gambling thing.
He's an investor in that.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I mean, it's how it works. That would happen to me.
I didn't know that. I haven't heard that.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
That's what I had read. And and all I'm saying
is that what I think the league is trying to
do is they're trying to say, look, we're the owners,
we're going to do it, but players cannot, and and
and then it gets to, well, okay, but can a
(28:10):
player make an appearance at a casino? Right? You know,
can he make an appearance at you know, a card
game and and so on. Now you start to get
into this gray area, right, and and that's where if
the money is coming there. Well, obviously the casinos are
(28:32):
paying a fee and they're they're they're going to pay
they want that affiliation. But then what do you how
do you sell that? You sell that with players, don't you?
With appearances? You know? Yeah, And so it just gets
into such a mess. And I think on one of
these individuals, the NBA did their own independent review of it,
(28:56):
uh and they found no wrongdoing of the particular individual.
So it gets into a real dicey thing. And I
will say this because I think it needs to be said.
We have the former head of the FBI, James Comeny,
(29:17):
is under indictment. We have a slew of people that
have opposed the current administration that have had indictments brought
against them recently. And the NBA has gone headfirst into
DEI and has very much supported that. And that is
(29:41):
something that is out there and I do think it
has to be asked. Is the Justice Department doing this
to give the NBA a black eye? And this player
is a black guy, so it can advance its thoughts
on DEI.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
That is a very very interesting point, and I don't
think I don't think that would have been anything that
I thought would come out of this conversation at It's
a very interesting point, and we've heard and I think
that's what Stephen A. Smith probably was alluding to. I
don't think he said it as directly is what you
just stated, but he definitely, I believe, alluded to it
(30:23):
in his comments. And that can very well be true
because to your point, you know, like I said, I
just don't see how we are in a cultural culture
of gambling and then we're prosecuting people for participating in
the culture because it's going to happen, you know, this
is where we're at.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Well, like I said, I don't know all the fact,
I don't know all the evidence. At my first gut
instinct is these NBA players, boy, I really think they
got strong case for a quittal. Uh just from what
I'm reading. Okay, Now, I don't know, you know, but
(31:06):
I'm just saying like it just it smells to me,
and I.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, okay, so let's assume let's assume that happens. Okay,
And now there's a little mumbling going on with the
NFL that there could be something over there, right, and
let's assume something pops up over there, are we gonna
be in the same situation to where in one case
it looks really bad, but we don't really have any
(31:36):
locked in facts.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And now we gotta we gotta let him go. And
after you've.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Already said my name all over the country, now we're
talking about it. Every sports place is talking about it,
the news is talking about it. So you can't like,
you can't put that back in the bottle.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
That's gonna go with me for the rest of and
and let's let's let's let's let's let's put it very
squarely think about professional boxing. Professional boxing was the sport
in America until until we started to realize the impact
of head injuries and the fact that the mafia was
(32:23):
maybe rigging matches, okay, and so the credibility of the
sport and the fact, uh that it was dangerous. Now
we already got that with the NFL, the danger side.
So now you start going to the credibility. And now
right to your point, Carl, you know, if there's that
(32:45):
send out there, well, now people start to question the
you know, the sport, right, and they start to question
the credibility. They do it from a you know, a
credibility standpoint of of you know, a lot of different things.
And I think one thing that's really hard for people
to understand, which it was hard for me, is that
(33:09):
these athletes are unbelievable and they can have an injury
and go out there and you watch him when you're like,
doesn't look like he's injured to me, but he is,
you know what I'm saying, And like that's it's like
Carl talking about, you know, in his career when you
know he's got a separated shoulder and you know, they're
(33:32):
you've got all these issues going on, and they're they're
telling him, you know, we'll try to fall this way
so that you know, you deal with your forearm and
we don't get another separated shoulder kind of saying or whatever.
It's like, you know it. These athletes are unbelievable and
what they do. So for the untrained eye you're looking
at you're going look the wall, they look fine to me,
(33:53):
and you know the difference is you know, very minute
and the untrained I can't see it. And so yeah,
and I think.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
You know, as far as the credibility is concerned, I
think that may be one of the strongest cases to
you know, re examining gaming and gambling as it currently stands,
because when we look at this, you know, we've had
situations that Tim Donneghie's the referee of the NBA who
got caught up in that betting scandal. And now we're
(34:24):
having a plethora of players, you know, some quality not
making the news as much, and then we have this
explosive stories. So again we don't want to start, you know,
just questioning outcomes. And I think eventually this is not
only going to be you know, you know, you know,
news and professional sports, but it's going to get down
(34:45):
to that collegiate sports as well. When we talk about
you know what, what are the lines that players are
now going when it comes to gaming and gambling and
different things and using their name and image and likeness
to represent you know, see, you know, businesses and individuals
who are just offering a bunch of money up front.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And and and to that, Like when you start looking
at at a game, whether it's I'll just use football
and somebody a receiver who you you would expect to
make this catch, he drops this and he could have
and if he catches it, it's a touchdown, they win
the game, he drops it and they lose the game.
(35:30):
I'm in my head, I'm thinking there are people who
are never going to be able to let that go
and say, oh.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That looks like like he set that up.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
He's because he should have made that catch, where any
other time you could have just said, oh man, he
should have made that. Now you're thinking, oh, he might
have dropped that, or you know, he might be gambling
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
I see.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
And I think it's particularly you know, relevant because of
what you mentioned before. Brandon was talking about all the
prop bets. Now, so it's not just like a win
or lose. Right, you could be ahead of the game.
You could be winning and you just don't make that
next catch, or you don't or you just you know,
feel go to the left, but it really doesn't matter.
So it's not just a perspective of like just winning
(36:14):
and losing games. Now you dive deeper into that, and
you can really if you do a deeper analyst of
those things. And I think that's kind of the part
that's difficult to sort of analyze because you have all
you have these millions of prop bets, so you don't
know even that little thing, right, that little why why
I step out of bounds where I could have got
(36:34):
the two yards and different things of that nature, or
I'm fighting hard for those extra yards because you have
those gambling bets. So it's not just a question of
it's not like the big things. It could be a
series of little things and two and one of the
crazy things.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And listening to you, what was going through my head
is like how I'll go back to old school players
that I guess I fit into that window.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Like you, you would.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Never think about not making a play so that it
would it would you know, whatever the prop bet would be,
like I'm gonna I'm gonna give that. I can't like
I can't even because I don't want you to catch
the ball on me. I don't want you to get
a touchdown on me. I don't want to miss a
tackle so you get extra yards. So do are we are?
(37:25):
We are we saying are we thinking alluding to that
there are there could be potential players who are in
that situation today.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
I'm just saying, like I think it could be again
and not accusing anybody, but it's it's really something that's
relevant and I think as we start, because I don't
think we're going to see more and more stories like this.
I think this is just the start. Yeah, so this
these things are just to start. So, like I said,
we're in a culture of gaming. So if you're you know,
a twenty one year old kid, you're playing professional sports.
(37:59):
You grew up plan fantasy sports, you grew up, you know,
being on gaming apps. You grew up basically gambling your
whole life as far as nature, So your thought process
may be a little different. So outside of this, Brandon
like again, you are you are an agent, So what
professional organizations are you an agent? And what capacity do
you work in?
Speaker 5 (38:20):
So I'm a lawyer, and and I think I would
say this that anybody that hires an agent, that that
agent should be a lawyer because they have the sophistication
to understand some of these things and include some of
these things in their contracts and so on and so forth,
(38:41):
whereas an agent per se doesn't need to be a lawyer.
But you know, there is a difference, and so that's
that's that's a big thing. One thing though that you
guys were talking about that you know, the leagues have
gone all in on the money right with the gambling,
(39:04):
and it's a lot of money, and of course the
players are making higher salaries because of that money. So
as this relates one thing to think about, there's no
way that the league's gonna they're going to play every card.
No pun intended to keep this affiliation with gambling going
because they're making the money at it, and the players
(39:26):
are going to The players Association is going to support
it because that's how they're getting their salaries. Nobody's going
to want to go and take less money, right. And
so when you're a player that's getting pinched in something
like this, can you imagine the league and the league
kind of saying, hey, man, just plead guilty to this.
(39:47):
You know, we want this to go away. We don't
want this on the radar, you know, just plead guilty
and we'll take care of you later. Like I am
empathetic to the player or manager or whatever in this
because you know, these leagues there's so much money at stake.
I'm sure they would be happy to serve up an
(40:09):
individual and say, well, no, no, this isn't a league
wide problem. It's just this one badass, right, yeah, you see,
and the pressure, you know, and and and and everybody
knows that, you know, if you're a player in a league,
that there is pressure on those people to do things
(40:32):
or not do things, as the case may be. Uh.
And it's it's there and it's real, and I do
worry about that as it relates to these individuals and
this charge and and other charges in the future.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Now, do you also have that same worry for the media,
because in addition to providing sponsorships in partnerships with professional organizations,
these gaming companies also are providing big sponsorship dollars for
network in different programs. So do you worry abo that
the media won't, you know, give a fair analysis of
(41:08):
everything as far as relates to cases like this.
Speaker 5 (41:11):
I think it's an absolutely, it's a great point. And
I mean it's like they're all tied together. And and
I do think that you know, the if you're from Minnesota,
you'll remember a guy named Dan Barrero or there's another
guy named Patrick ROYCEI And they were very much kind
(41:33):
of anti establishment writers for the Star Tribune, and they
would criticize the team, they'd criticize players, they would you know,
they were pretty free in their their articles and their opinions.
You don't see that as much anymore. Most of the
media is raw, raw league, raw raw team and and
(41:55):
and there there is more of a control factor. You
don't see that contrarian journalists like you used to see,
you know, forty years ago. So yeah, I think that's
a It's a legitimate concern, no question about it.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Wow. So will we find something at the college level?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Do you think this is something that's even at that
level or is this an NFL specific thing at this point, NFL, NBA?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Is this just in the professional ranks at this point?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Will this fall down to to a collegiate level?
Speaker 5 (42:41):
Well, I think, first of all, this has always been there.
I would agree there's there has always been gambling. There
has always been players that are getting paid. It's just
that it was under the table, and now they're making
it over the table, and they're making it a more
on a system of what was really going.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well, now are they are they are they putting it
over the on top of the table or did this
just did this just sneak up and was sitting on
top of the table and everybody or somebody saw it
and they're saying, oh, this is this is not right?
Because I don't think that. I don't know if I'm
thinking that like this was that everybody meant this to
(43:25):
show up. I don't think this was this was something
that you wanted to come out.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
Oh no, no, no. The gambling. I'm saying gambling has gone
and it is and it's something that is there. I
don't think that the college sports, though, have made the
alliance with professional gambling like the major sports you know,
(43:53):
leagues have, right, and so as long as I think,
to me, the problem is is that that alliance now,
you know, it's like again, it's real simple in your mentality,
Carl from your era was like, hey man, you're just
not near that period. You don't go near that, and
(44:13):
that keeps it real simple. And I think that, you know,
the leagues, it's more complicated. I think college is still
on the on the track of hey, you don't go
near that, you know. Now, the fact that the pros
are doing that, does that? Does that cause issue as well? Yeah?
It does, But I thus far I think they've you know,
(44:36):
they haven't made an alliance that I know of well.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
And I was thinking too on the side of that
in IL money, with all this in I OL money
what do you you know, what do you do with that?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Will some of these guys think about betting, gambling with it.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And that's because to.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Me, I think if you an athlete and you're gambling,
I think it's going to be very difficult not to
slide over and bet somewhere in the in the sports.
Speaker 5 (45:10):
Well, I Carl, so you told me a story about
how you had like a broken you know, uh, forearm,
and they're taping this all up to get you to play.
And then they're telling you, well, don't you know, roll
on it a certain way and rebreak your forearm, because
that's a two week you're out Versus if you you know,
(45:32):
put your arm out, then you'll separate your shoulder and
that's six weeks. And and Okay, a normal person doesn't
do that, Carl, Okay, Like you know, at my point
is athletes are unbelievable gamblers. They have They are high
risk takers, that is who they are, Like, they are
way off the chart on willingness to take risk and
(45:55):
they like the gambling. Frankly, kind of that's kind of
the psychological makeup of a pro athlete, frankly, And so yeah,
I mean it's It's something that's always going to be
extremely alluring to an as it's such a challenge. Yeah,
it's a challenge, but it's also it feeds into their competitiveness.
It feeds into hey, this is how I've made my
(46:18):
money taking risks, absolutely all of it. It is a
real real issue, and yeah, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah I don't know what happened, but I got none
of that because I would.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I would.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I was in Vegas in for I was in Vegas
for a week and I might have spent twenty five
dollars the whole week.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
But I just don't think you came up seeing it
how these kids are seeing it now, I'm not I
would agree with that. One of the things I do
outside of the legislative is working you know, behavioral health,
and one of the things that we're seeing is that
you know, we want we run you know, one eight
hundred gamblers at the company I work for, one of
the helplines, and we're seeing it when young men again
(47:05):
twelve thirteen ten, they are coming up in it not
only in direct sports gaming, uh betting, but also like
the little roebucks that everything is tied to a sort
of quasi gambling sort of thing, even like the canster phone,
a chance to win if you know, you give this
and we're gonna you get a chance to win this.
So it's just it's just how you know, we're conditioned.
(47:29):
And I think that to your part, to your point,
Brandon we We, I believe not only do you know sports,
professional sports leagues, but I also think society we have
to take a second look at this and see if
this is the best methodology moving forward, because it creates
a whole stem of problems, whether it's gambling with your
your body, you know, gambling doing something you know, trying
(47:50):
to hit it big somewhere, or you know sports gaming and.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Both of you.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
Just take a lotteries guy, you know, States do these
lotteries and they make money off that. But that's gambling too, truth.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Right, I was gonna so I'm gonna ask you to, like,
do you think anybody I won't. I won't.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I don't know if I want to say anybody, But
there's a whole lot of people. And I think Collis
you were alluding to this just a second ago. You
have this desire of a challenge, of a risk. Does
that because of because of who you are as a
as an athlete. Are we saying that that person is
(48:36):
is a prime candidate for being getting in a situation
to where they could lose a bunch of money, they
could do it illegally, get caught, because they just it's
just a challenge that they are, they're they're going after.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
I would say, and I'll and I'll let you go
Brandon last, But I would say it's not necessarily just
them specifically being an athlete. But I think when you
talk about athlete, when you talk about someone with excess
amount of funds, and when you talk about someone who
is in the know, right, there's nowhere that we don't know, right,
So they're in spaces in rooms that we may not
(49:14):
be privy to. So and in those rooms, it's not
like you just going to casino you can win a
couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand bucks or hit a
slot machine. You may be in rooms where you could
you know, several hundred thousands of dollars or millions or
what have you. So I just think when you talk
about access, when you talk about you know, excess funds,
resources and just having a competitive disposition, it creates like
(49:39):
a cock uh, you know, a toxic cocktail that you
know we're seeing a result of.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
I agree. The only thing I would add to that
is think of, you know, why do people gamble. One
of it is, you know, kind of their constitutional makeup
and their brain. Usually those people have ADHD and they
get hyper focused on something and then the dopamine is
the win, right, And that's the kind of the Usually
(50:09):
those people fit into that mold. But now add to
it head trauma, head injuries. Now you have depression, and
depression is a symptom or one of the manifestations of
that is uncontrolled gambling, right, that is what happens when
people get depressed. So our athletes people that are very
(50:32):
much you know, subject that they absolutely are because those
are issues that they dealt deal with. And again that
that's kind of their personality makeup. So it's for sure
a huge, huge issue.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Well, holler, you got anything else? No, I appreciate you
coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
Provided some great insight and perspective, and yeah, this good
show today, Brandon.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I truly truly appreciate it, you know. And what's what's
funny to me that having you on and having this
kind of this type of conversation is It's kind of
crazy because I wouldn't have I would have never thought
we'd be sitting down having some of a conversation like
this about sports. You know, we you know now after
(51:22):
working with you for a long time, we usually are
sitting around laughing and joking and having a good time.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And you know, but I do truly, truly appreciate you
coming on.
Speaker 5 (51:32):
Thanks guys. It has been an honor and a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
All right, man, you take care, Hollis. I think we
got like a lot of good information. And I know
for you, you you being in that field, as well
as as as Brandon, you all communicated in a in
a way that I don't know if a whole lot
(51:54):
of people could communicate, you know, you knowing the facts
of the things that you know, his facts from where
he knows. And I thought that was I thought that
was interesting because I was learning listening to you all,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:06):
And I thought he made a great point. You know,
when we see these sort of things, and you know,
these headlines and you have these superstar well known athletes
and so forth, who are sort of not only maybe
the face whether knowingly or unknowingly of maybe these illegal
gambling operations and sort of they get wrapped up in it,
(52:26):
which is a whole host of other people who are
you know, involved in probably you know, doing the bulk
of setting it up and just far as you know him,
you know, spelling out the cultural peace to this when
you have you know, the other individuals NBA players or
associates who are evolved in this as far as giving
insider information. To me, that's the most dangerous side of this.
(52:52):
And how do we quell this not only from a
professional sports standpoint, but also from a society stamp point
because we are just so entrenched in gaming. Everywhere you look,
you know, I'm telling you, you look on your phone
for five minutes, you'll see a gaming ad, you look
on television, everywhere you look, it's gaming, gaming, game and gaming.
(53:15):
They're just enticing you to be a part of this.
So how do we you know, do we need to
have you know, disclaimers or do we need to have
where we can sort of you know, have limited ads,
Like what do we do about this? Because it's only
gonna get worse. And to his point, you can't make
a deal with the devil and then expect them not
(53:36):
to come out because it's gonna come out. So you know,
when you have an owner that has allegedly or and
I'll do my research on that, but may have you know,
you know, tithes or interests or investments in gaming sights.
How's that not a conflict of it? It has to be,
you know, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
You know, it's it's it's crazy, and I'm sure it's
only gonna get worse as we as as the days
and weeks past. Yeah, because it's gonna, it's gonna, it's
gonna show up, and it's gonna keep showing out. All right, Well,
ladies and gentlemen, we appreciate you being with us today
and we will be back again next week.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
Let's Talk with Carl Lee as presented by Attorney Frank
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(54:34):
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with carl Lee m
Speaker 5 (55:01):
It
Yeah, you gotta work.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You gotta work, ry Shin. It's mine gotta show. Everybody
is my sign. You gotta wurk cry shine another mind.
I'm trying to die because day line don't tell you
gotta burk.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Welcome to Let's Talk with carl Lee and frequent guest
hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
(00:43):
by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
on Let's Talk.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
and we're missing one of our our co hosts, Lise
ODI's out today, but we do have Hollis Lewis and
Hello and Hollan's.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
One of the interesting things today.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Of the topic that we're gonna kind of address is
one that everybody probably knows and trying to figure out
it's a it's it's a lot of legal stuff involved
that I don't think the average person really knows. So
tell me a little bit about what you what, what
(01:30):
you what you're thinking, and then we've got a guest
that i'll introduce in just a second.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I just want to kind of see where you are
just as an overview.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Yeah, as you mentioned, there's a lot of illegal things
as far as you know criminality and also you know
policies within specifically the of the n b A. And
while these two stories are sort of cross reference between
one another, they're actually two individual charges. So you have
Chauncey Billups, who is alleged to have participated or been
(02:02):
a part of underground poker operations in which the games
were quote unquote rigged. And you have Damon Jones, who
was allegedly given insider information along with Terry Roseer of
the I think Damon Jones was a former player and
Terry Roseier is with the with the Miami Heat. So
these are two different issues as far as going on,
(02:25):
but they all revolve around the same gambling. Yes, and again,
just before we get started, coming from a legal background,
I always like to pit out this disclaimer that you know,
we're talking about this from an analysis standpoint to trying
to see, you know, how this is going to affect
things moving forward, the bigger question of gambling. But all
(02:47):
the individuals which we are mentioning are innocent until proven guilty.
So as of now, these are just charges and these
individuals are innocent.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
All right, So.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I'm glad you gave that that disclaimer there. So everybody
kind of knows that when you play sports, there's usually
somebody that's in and around you to kind of to
manage you.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And one of.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And today I have Brandon Lawhead, who is a guy
who I ended up meeting like right at the end
of my career, and he did a lot of things
to help me make the transition, to financially make the transition,
and all of those kind of things. So I and
so I thought about, because of all of this stuff
(03:34):
that's happening, I thought he would be a great guest.
So I wanted to make sure that I if I
could get him, and I do have him.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So he's on the phone. So Brandon say hello to everybody.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Hello, everybody, Hell you, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So so Brandon, I'm going to like jump right into
this thing, because like I have no legal background of
any anything that can make any kind of really true claim.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But I'm gonna go back and say, back in.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
The day, you know, when we were in Minneapolis and
we you saw all the games, you were part of it.
You were representing people I'm playing and all of that
kind of stuff. And I knew that, and everybody knew
that gambling was kind of the off. You could that
it was the no No of football. And I know
(04:28):
we're talking about basketball. But do you when you think
about this, where is the agent in this thing?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Because what what I mean, wouldn't you be able to
have stepped in or said something or do these guys
not have them now or or what do you what's
your thought?
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Well, I think first of all, I wanted to maybe
step back. You mentioned, you know what it was like
in your era, and in your era, Pete Roselle was
the commissioner. Pete Roselle in the NFL wanted nothing to
do with gambling. He wanted to go as far away
(05:10):
from it as he could. Even CBS, you know member
that used to have Jimmy the Creek on, Yeah, and
who was the guy that was setting the line embedding.
But you know, they were very careful. They never said
like three points or you know, seven points. They never
used points. They would say, you know, I think the
Vikings will win by a field goal, or I think
(05:31):
they'll win by a touchdown. But they never started putting
points out there because they didn't want the affiliation with gambling.
Of course, that goes back to you know, the Black
Sox and all of the you know stuff that went
on you know earlier so And I think it's interesting
because I was out in New York and Chuck Foreman
(05:55):
was going to be announcing the NFL Draft for the
Minnesota Vikings, and I saw Roger Goodell and we had
lunch with Roger, and Roger was talking about how the
NFL Draft was getting more viewership than you know, the
Super Bowl. Wow, and and and so. And that was
(06:20):
back in twenty thirteen. And of course what's driving that
is fantasy football. Fantasy football is now really a lot
of your viewers. You know, back in the eighties, fans
were much more about my team. My team is the Vikings.
(06:40):
I am, you know, I'm rooting for my Vikings, and
so on and so forth. And now you've got people
that are you know, cheering for individuals because of their
fantasy football team, see and which is good and you know,
and there's a lot of you know, good that comes
out of that. But all these sports agencies have now
(07:04):
you know, I think there was a sense that, uh,
the mafia was basically defeated, you know, based upon the
prosecutions in the eighties and so on and so forth,
and that that wasn't really a problem anymore. And I
think all of the major sports uh you know, leagues
have now really gotten into gambling because there's a lot
(07:27):
of money there and you even see that in the media.
You see the media is now you know, sponsored by
these casinos.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
And a lot of them have their own gaming books,
like esp different things.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
As far as what I'm hearing you say so far,
I think you're talking about the bigger cultural shift that's happening.
And now, you know, gambling is a part of sort
of the sports experience. So so within that frame of mind,
and when we look at these particular stories where you
have guys giving out insider information, you have guys you know,
(08:07):
with with rig games, and I have a specific question
about that. You know what sort of warning or what
sort of a what are you telling your clients about
participating in these sort of activities.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Well, I think, first of all, you know, it is
impossible if this is if you read the indictment and
the complaint. They are using contacts where they can you know,
special contacts where they can see on the back of
the card in alleged you know, fraudulent card games. They're
(08:48):
using various electronic methods to do that. Well, who would
know that, No agent would know it, and no player
would know it, you know, I mean Chauncey Billups if
he's you know, the thing is is that, you know,
people want the experience of playing cards with a great athlete,
(09:08):
you know, so it's like, hey, play poker with Carl Lee.
Well that's cool, that'll be fun. You know, Carl's a
good guy, and so people are you know. So that's
how they're luring or they're getting people to come to
the table, and the athlete's going to get paid and
that's as far as it goes. So if I were
you know, we don't know the facts, right, I think
(09:31):
I would find it very hard to believe that Chauncey
Billups knows that these card games are rigged. I just
find that really hard to believe. I think it's more like, hey,
Chauncey will pay you X number of dollars to come
and do this card game, and Chauncey's like, sure, sounds
(09:51):
good to me. And that's as far as it goes.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
He was because when I read it in it, like
I said, I've read it pretty extensively about it too,
it seemed like when you're talking about, like you know,
even Kevin Garnett or Chauncey, Billups or Damon Jones, those
who have been either mentioned or in or charged in
relation to this scheme, that they were sort of just
the bait. And then you know, you have a whole
(10:13):
slew of other people behind the scenes sort of setting
up the stage for these rigged games.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
But the question from just just.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Wait one question, one thing though on that bait. The
word bait, I've read that, but that's an explosive term
because that's implying that they're part of the scheme. And
I really question that. Okay, I think a lot of
(10:43):
athletes get themselves mixed up with people that are bad,
but the athlete goes in thinking it's it's good and
Let's remember in the indictment itself, the indictment talks about
money laundering. They're using shell company these as fronts for
laundering the money and everything. So I don't know what
(11:04):
the facts are on this, but it could be like, hey,
this is a you know, Sports USA company. We do stuff,
you know, to raise money for kids and youth sports
or whatever. And Chaunsey's like, yeah, cool, that's cool. That
comes good. So we don't know, and I and I
just am I. Most of the time I see in
(11:26):
athletes people that have a good intent and they want
to do well, and they want to use their fame
to help others. And of course, you know, doing a
card game with an athlete is no different than an
autograph session or you know, a conversation or a discussion
(11:47):
type session, where it's just an opportunity for a person
to hang out with an athlete.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So from your opinion, from again what I'm here, and
I think I'm with you on this, your opinion is
probably you know, Chauncey Bill was asked to, hey, host
this card game. We're going to raise money or we
have this business or something that we're doing over here.
Could you come in, guys, want to play with you
so that way we can raise the profile of this game.
(12:13):
And again from your opinion, which is stating is that
Chauncey Billupp probably didn't know all the other things that
were going on behind it, particularly the rigged part of
the game.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Well, and remember this is organized crime that they're charging too, right,
So the organized crime those guys are sitting there, they're
very good at rigging things, right. And I just really
question if Chauncey Billups is going to throw his career
away on a card game. I would say, you know,
(12:46):
he would not do that. And again I know nothing
other than what I've read and my sense in my intuition.
But you know, Chauncey Billups has spent a lifetime and
I'm just using him as an example here. He spent
a lifetime, you know, gaining his reputation and then to
have that, you know, thrown away in this I really
(13:08):
question that.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Let me so let me ask another question is related
to this, and then we can move on to uh,
Damon Jones, because I think those are Damon Jones and
Terry Rose there that those may be a little bit
more concrete, but as far as like because the question
that I have, and I have a criminal law background,
and the question that I have is that if these
(13:29):
are stated to be underground or illegal gaming operations, so
they're illegal in nature, So even to participate them as
just as a player, whether I win or lose, I
am doing something illegal. So what protection would I have
if I'm participating in something illegal and then I get
(13:51):
took from the people who are pitting on this illegal game.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Well, I mean so from an agent standpoint, when I
do a contract for a land one provision in the
contract is that the whoever, the you know, the the
company is that's using the athlete services they warrant and
represent as part of the terms and condition of the
contract that they are following state and federal law. That
(14:18):
I have that in my agreements. Okay, so that no
matter what whatever they're doing that I don't know about,
at the end of the day, in writing in the contract,
they are warranting that whatever they're doing is going to
be done according to laws, so that my clients aren't
getting caught up. And because you don't know, you don't know,
(14:41):
you know, I mean, they're just using the athlete's fame, right,
I mean, that's what they're using and you know, and
that's what they're hiring, frankly, and that's all that the
athlete knows, you know. And so I always, you know,
include that in my agreements because I think it's important.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
But you know, all I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of
lean to the I'm gonna lean to the other side
for a second, you know. Okay, So Chauncey Bills, Okay,
you're a head coach, okay, and and.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You're out doing whatever, even if it's not.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Straight gambling, that's illegal, it's it's it's something.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
How do you what? What is the expectation for you
if he's coaching me? What?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And I know this is because you know, like we
know what coaches do. Coaches try to be sneaky, like
players try to be sneaky, and you always kind of
find out what they're doing. And if you know that,
if players know that, like like how you see him
in you see him gambling, you see him doing this,
(15:52):
you see him doing that, and then this comes out,
you have no other thought process that he's he's guilty.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
No, but I think you're I think to to to
the point that hasn't been brought up, is that we
don't really know the guys in which Billips was participating
my question.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
But but what I'm saying is.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
If he's involved, if he's gambling, if he's betting, if
he's doing this, and if.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
That's what he's part of, he's not the example he
and again, and this is what this is.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
This is just saying if by any chance he was
part of this, right he.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And and and Brandon.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
You know, like anytime a player sees a coach out somewhere,
like a coach should never be seen out where the
players are.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That's just that's just always been the kind of thing.
How is that happening? Like? What? What? What makes you
think that it's okay?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
I think? I think? And this is the real nexus
and what I was trying to kind of talk about
at the beginning here, And you put your finger right
on the pulse of the issue, Carl. Your generation of
athlete was very much conditioned that, Hey, if there's something
gambling related here, I'm going the other way. I don't
(17:20):
even want to be near it. I don't even want
to touch it. I want nothing to do with it.
But now the leagues have wrapped themselves in, you know, gambling,
and so now it's like, well, hey, I mean these
guys are paying my paycheck really, and so so now
it's like, well, it's it's kind of like, you know,
(17:41):
you know, do you do you do a you know,
some kind of an NFL race where you know, Budweiser
is a sponsor. Well, there would have been a time
where maybe, hey, no, I'm not because that's alcohol. But
the NFL has definitely, you know, said no, we're having
alcohol sponsorships and and everything else. And so now the
(18:04):
athlete's like, well, hey, I mean this is part of
the deal now, and so they kind of just slide
into it. I think, and and and to your point,
I think that's the real thing here. And I think
the leagues if there's going to be gambling, somewhere along
the way, there's going to be organized crime. There's somewhere
(18:26):
along the way there's gonna be fixing. And it's like
they have chosen to do a deal with the devil,
but the devil's going to come back and collect at
some point. And it's a real fine line. And I
don't know, and you know, like they they bet on
things that aren't even like the game, Like, you know,
(18:51):
how long is this guy gonna play or whatever. It's like,
right now, I can tell you for sure bet. The
first sure bet is that when Roger Craig the Hall
the Great forty nine er running Back goes into the
Hall of Fame, Eddie de Barbelow will be his presenter. Now,
maybe that doesn't come true for a variety of reasons,
but that's the kind of bet you could make right now,
(19:13):
right And it's like they allow you to bet on everything.
But when they allow you to bet on everything, it's like, boy,
that really and it's like, you know, so you know,
Roger kind of casually said to me, Yeah, well, Eddie's
going to be my presenter if I ever, you know,
go to the Hall of Fame. Well, okay, did Roger
intend that to be information that's leaked out that people
(19:36):
could use the path? No, he was just he was
just telling me right like. So that's where it really
gets into a slippery slope here, and that.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Leads me to my next question.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Because again we talked about Chohncey Billis, but Terry Rosere
and Damon Jones, part of their indictment is that they
gave inside their information. So to your point, when we
talk about gambling, and we talk about this thing as
far as from a cultural context, how do we escape it?
Because again to your point, and I love how you
(20:08):
framed it, they've made a deal with the devil and
now the devil wants his cut. So if you're coming
up in just an era in the culture where we
not only have you know, grown men who are taking
these bets, but a lot of teams, you know, next
to drug and alcohol and cigarettes abuse, the other thing
we have to worry about is them getting on that
app and constantly betting. And it starts innocently enough with
(20:31):
things like fantasy football. So so I don't know how
you weed it out of here, because again we've seen
what like a couple of years ago with Shay Show
Old Tani, right, we've seen this. We've seen a couple
of football players get long term suspensions due to you know,
this sort of gambling. So what what is far as
(20:51):
an agent standpoint, if you got a young athlete, what
conversations are you having about not getting entwined in this?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Well? And I think you know it's so I'll use
an example. Brett Favre. Brett Favre, you know, had this
you know thing in Mississippi and welfare and blah blah
blah and all that stuff, and and Brett's agent, Bus Cook.
I don't think Bus was really doing stuff for him.
But I know Brett, and Carl knows Brett, and he's
(21:19):
a great guy. He's an absolute stand up guy. And
I really have always felt very badly about that issue
because you know, at first, blush, why is a as
an athlete, you know, engaged in welfare funds? But yet
when you get past that, you start to say, well,
(21:41):
why is the NFL involved in armed forces?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Like the NFL gets paid to honor our military at
halftime things and whatever. Right, So an athlete can very
much look at this and say, well, this is what
the NFL is doing. So hey, I mean, you know,
my name, my likeness. I can go do some speaking
things and so on and so forth and talk about,
(22:06):
you know, pulling yourself up from your bo bootstraps from
you know, poverty and having a great life, and and
you think you're just totally great, you see, And then
you got some guy that you know wants to run
for governor and now he's going to make an example
out of that athlete because see, that's the headlines that
he's going to get his fame on. And so I
(22:27):
really the athletes I've dealt with, they have gotten drawn
into things, and the reason that they use athletes. I
really look at athletes most of the time in these
things as victims because they use athletes because people feel
like they know that athlete even though they don't. Right,
(22:48):
It's like, hey, that's you know that, that's uh, that's
my guy, you know, and I've been cheering for him
for ten years, and yeah, if he's doing it, then
I'll do it. And that's that's why frankly, athletes have sponsorships, right,
is that that that feeling of trust and such. So
it's a real it's just a really dicey road. And
(23:08):
I mean that's where you know, agents you can do
a lot. But look, man, you know, organized crime is
really good at hiding their involvement. They're always like three
or four walls away from stuff. They've got other people.
So to expect an athlete or an agent to flush
(23:30):
that out, I think it's nearly impossible. And I do
think that this gambling thing is really it's just gonna
be a problem for all these professional sports leagues. I
really think the leagues need to basically say, look, you
cannot participate it all at all in any form of gambling,
(23:54):
in any form of anything, period, because I just think
that it's it's a slippery slope and it's gonna bite
you in some way. You didn't even think of it.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Okay, hold that thought. We're gonna take a break because
I want to. I got some more questions related today.
We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
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Now back to the conversation.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
All right, So before we took the break, basically a
recommendation that you gave out was that these leagues essentially
need to say go back to the old way, noble gambling,
we're done with it. We're washing our hands. And I
would say, I don't think there's any other way to
sort of do these because the these issues are just
(26:01):
going to start to compound themselves, because again, not only
are we dealing with people who have a lot of
excess money, but we're dealing with the ultimate competitors, right,
We're dealing with athletes at the highest level. These guys,
particularly those athletes with a lot with a lot of money,
once they're playing career ends, they still have that competitive drive.
(26:22):
So you've seen, you know, Charles Barkley talk about going
to the casinos and losing millions, millions of dollars in
black jacket, different things of that nature. We've seen the
Floyd Mayweather's bet hundreds of thousand dollars on boxing matches.
So you know, how does that look as far as leagues,
if you know, if they followed your recommendations to say, hey,
we're just done with it, do you think that's even
(26:43):
feasible with the money that's coming in.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And before you answer that, Brandon, let me ask, let
me add to that. And I think Hollis is alluding
to this too. But like all of the commercials that
are happening during a football game, a basketball game, there,
they're alcohol, their gam laying there.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You know, it's all of the things that you're saying,
don't do.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
But you're taking that money and you're advertising that, and
that's becomes associated with the league, the players, and everybody
who's associated with it.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Am I not? Am I right on that?
Speaker 5 (27:20):
You're absolutely right? And I mean that's there's the The
real problem is that they have taken the money. It
is a lot of money. I thought I read the
Cherry Jones that Draft Kings, fantasy football, you know, gambling thing.
He's an investor in that.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I mean, it's how it works. That would happen to me.
I didn't know that. I haven't heard that.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
That's what I had read. And and all I'm saying
is that what I think the league is trying to
do is they're trying to say, look, we're the owners,
we're going to do it, but players cannot, and and
and then it gets to, well, okay, but can a
(28:10):
player make an appearance at a casino? Right? You know,
can he make an appearance at you know, a card
game and and so on. Now you start to get
into this gray area, right, and and that's where if
the money is coming there. Well, obviously the casinos are
(28:32):
paying a fee and they're they're they're going to pay
they want that affiliation. But then what do you how
do you sell that? You sell that with players, don't you?
With appearances? You know? Yeah, And so it just gets
into such a mess. And I think on one of
these individuals, the NBA did their own independent review of it,
(28:56):
uh and they found no wrongdoing of the particular individual.
So it gets into a real dicey thing. And I
will say this because I think it needs to be said.
We have the former head of the FBI, James Comeny,
(29:17):
is under indictment. We have a slew of people that
have opposed the current administration that have had indictments brought
against them recently. And the NBA has gone headfirst into
DEI and has very much supported that. And that is
(29:41):
something that is out there and I do think it
has to be asked. Is the Justice Department doing this
to give the NBA a black eye? And this player
is a black guy, so it can advance its thoughts
on DEI.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
That is a very very interesting point, and I don't
think I don't think that would have been anything that
I thought would come out of this conversation at It's
a very interesting point, and we've heard and I think
that's what Stephen A. Smith probably was alluding to. I
don't think he said it as directly is what you
just stated, but he definitely, I believe, alluded to it
(30:23):
in his comments. And that can very well be true
because to your point, you know, like I said, I
just don't see how we are in a cultural culture
of gambling and then we're prosecuting people for participating in
the culture because it's going to happen, you know, this
is where we're at.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Well, like I said, I don't know all the fact,
I don't know all the evidence. At my first gut
instinct is these NBA players, boy, I really think they
got strong case for a quittal. Uh just from what
I'm reading. Okay, Now, I don't know, you know, but
(31:06):
I'm just saying like it just it smells to me,
and I.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, okay, so let's assume let's assume that happens. Okay,
And now there's a little mumbling going on with the
NFL that there could be something over there, right, and
let's assume something pops up over there, are we gonna
be in the same situation to where in one case
it looks really bad, but we don't really have any
(31:36):
locked in facts.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And now we gotta we gotta let him go. And
after you've.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Already said my name all over the country, now we're
talking about it. Every sports place is talking about it,
the news is talking about it. So you can't like,
you can't put that back in the bottle.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
That's gonna go with me for the rest of and
and let's let's let's let's let's let's put it very
squarely think about professional boxing. Professional boxing was the sport
in America until until we started to realize the impact
of head injuries and the fact that the mafia was
(32:23):
maybe rigging matches, okay, and so the credibility of the
sport and the fact, uh that it was dangerous. Now
we already got that with the NFL, the danger side.
So now you start going to the credibility. And now
right to your point, Carl, you know, if there's that
(32:45):
send out there, well, now people start to question the
you know, the sport, right, and they start to question
the credibility. They do it from a you know, a
credibility standpoint of of you know, a lot of different things.
And I think one thing that's really hard for people
to understand, which it was hard for me, is that
(33:09):
these athletes are unbelievable and they can have an injury
and go out there and you watch him when you're like,
doesn't look like he's injured to me, but he is,
you know what I'm saying, And like that's it's like
Carl talking about, you know, in his career when you
know he's got a separated shoulder and you know, they're
(33:32):
you've got all these issues going on, and they're they're
telling him, you know, we'll try to fall this way
so that you know, you deal with your forearm and
we don't get another separated shoulder kind of saying or whatever.
It's like, you know it. These athletes are unbelievable and
what they do. So for the untrained eye you're looking
at you're going look the wall, they look fine to me,
(33:53):
and you know the difference is you know, very minute
and the untrained I can't see it. And so yeah,
and I think.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
You know, as far as the credibility is concerned, I
think that may be one of the strongest cases to
you know, re examining gaming and gambling as it currently stands,
because when we look at this, you know, we've had
situations that Tim Donneghie's the referee of the NBA who
got caught up in that betting scandal. And now we're
(34:24):
having a plethora of players, you know, some quality not
making the news as much, and then we have this
explosive stories. So again we don't want to start, you know,
just questioning outcomes. And I think eventually this is not
only going to be you know, you know, you know,
news and professional sports, but it's going to get down
(34:45):
to that collegiate sports as well. When we talk about
you know what, what are the lines that players are
now going when it comes to gaming and gambling and
different things and using their name and image and likeness
to represent you know, see, you know, businesses and individuals
who are just offering a bunch of money up front.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And and and to that, Like when you start looking
at at a game, whether it's I'll just use football
and somebody a receiver who you you would expect to
make this catch, he drops this and he could have
and if he catches it, it's a touchdown, they win
the game, he drops it and they lose the game.
(35:30):
I'm in my head, I'm thinking there are people who
are never going to be able to let that go
and say, oh.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That looks like like he set that up.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
He's because he should have made that catch, where any
other time you could have just said, oh man, he
should have made that. Now you're thinking, oh, he might
have dropped that, or you know, he might be gambling
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
I see.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
And I think it's particularly you know, relevant because of
what you mentioned before. Brandon was talking about all the
prop bets. Now, so it's not just like a win
or lose. Right, you could be ahead of the game.
You could be winning and you just don't make that
next catch, or you don't or you just you know,
feel go to the left, but it really doesn't matter.
So it's not just a perspective of like just winning
(36:14):
and losing games. Now you dive deeper into that, and
you can really if you do a deeper analyst of
those things. And I think that's kind of the part
that's difficult to sort of analyze because you have all
you have these millions of prop bets, so you don't
know even that little thing, right, that little why why
I step out of bounds where I could have got
(36:34):
the two yards and different things of that nature, or
I'm fighting hard for those extra yards because you have
those gambling bets. So it's not just a question of
it's not like the big things. It could be a
series of little things and two and one of the
crazy things.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
And listening to you, what was going through my head
is like how I'll go back to old school players
that I guess I fit into that window.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Like you, you would.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Never think about not making a play so that it
would it would you know, whatever the prop bet would be,
like I'm gonna I'm gonna give that. I can't like
I can't even because I don't want you to catch
the ball on me. I don't want you to get
a touchdown on me. I don't want to miss a
tackle so you get extra yards. So do are we are?
(37:25):
We are we saying are we thinking alluding to that
there are there could be potential players who are in
that situation today.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
I'm just saying, like I think it could be again
and not accusing anybody, but it's it's really something that's
relevant and I think as we start, because I don't
think we're going to see more and more stories like this.
I think this is just the start. Yeah, so this
these things are just to start. So, like I said,
we're in a culture of gaming. So if you're you know,
a twenty one year old kid, you're playing professional sports.
(37:59):
You grew up plan fantasy sports, you grew up, you know,
being on gaming apps. You grew up basically gambling your
whole life as far as nature, So your thought process
may be a little different. So outside of this, Brandon
like again, you are you are an agent, So what
professional organizations are you an agent? And what capacity do
you work in?
Speaker 5 (38:20):
So I'm a lawyer, and and I think I would
say this that anybody that hires an agent, that that
agent should be a lawyer because they have the sophistication
to understand some of these things and include some of
these things in their contracts and so on and so forth,
(38:41):
whereas an agent per se doesn't need to be a lawyer.
But you know, there is a difference, and so that's
that's that's a big thing. One thing though that you
guys were talking about that you know, the leagues have
gone all in on the money right with the gambling,
(39:04):
and it's a lot of money, and of course the
players are making higher salaries because of that money. So
as this relates one thing to think about, there's no
way that the league's gonna they're going to play every card.
No pun intended to keep this affiliation with gambling going
because they're making the money at it, and the players
(39:26):
are going to The players Association is going to support
it because that's how they're getting their salaries. Nobody's going
to want to go and take less money, right. And
so when you're a player that's getting pinched in something
like this, can you imagine the league and the league
kind of saying, hey, man, just plead guilty to this.
(39:47):
You know, we want this to go away. We don't
want this on the radar, you know, just plead guilty
and we'll take care of you later. Like I am
empathetic to the player or manager or whatever in this
because you know, these leagues there's so much money at stake.
I'm sure they would be happy to serve up an
(40:09):
individual and say, well, no, no, this isn't a league
wide problem. It's just this one badass, right, yeah, you see,
and the pressure, you know, and and and and everybody
knows that, you know, if you're a player in a league,
that there is pressure on those people to do things
(40:32):
or not do things, as the case may be. Uh.
And it's it's there and it's real, and I do
worry about that as it relates to these individuals and
this charge and and other charges in the future.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Now, do you also have that same worry for the media,
because in addition to providing sponsorships in partnerships with professional organizations,
these gaming companies also are providing big sponsorship dollars for
network in different programs. So do you worry abo that
the media won't, you know, give a fair analysis of
(41:08):
everything as far as relates to cases like this.
Speaker 5 (41:11):
I think it's an absolutely, it's a great point. And
I mean it's like they're all tied together. And and
I do think that you know, the if you're from Minnesota,
you'll remember a guy named Dan Barrero or there's another
guy named Patrick ROYCEI And they were very much kind
(41:33):
of anti establishment writers for the Star Tribune, and they
would criticize the team, they'd criticize players, they would you know,
they were pretty free in their their articles and their opinions.
You don't see that as much anymore. Most of the
media is raw, raw league, raw raw team and and
(41:55):
and there there is more of a control factor. You
don't see that contrarian journalists like you used to see,
you know, forty years ago. So yeah, I think that's
a It's a legitimate concern, no question about it.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Wow. So will we find something at the college level?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Do you think this is something that's even at that
level or is this an NFL specific thing at this point, NFL, NBA?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Is this just in the professional ranks at this point?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Will this fall down to to a collegiate level?
Speaker 5 (42:41):
Well, I think, first of all, this has always been there.
I would agree there's there has always been gambling. There
has always been players that are getting paid. It's just
that it was under the table, and now they're making
it over the table, and they're making it a more
on a system of what was really going.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well, now are they are they are they putting it
over the on top of the table or did this
just did this just sneak up and was sitting on
top of the table and everybody or somebody saw it
and they're saying, oh, this is this is not right?
Because I don't think that. I don't know if I'm
thinking that like this was that everybody meant this to
(43:25):
show up. I don't think this was this was something
that you wanted to come out.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
Oh no, no, no. The gambling. I'm saying gambling has gone
and it is and it's something that is there. I
don't think that the college sports, though, have made the
alliance with professional gambling like the major sports you know,
(43:53):
leagues have, right, and so as long as I think,
to me, the problem is is that that alliance now,
you know, it's like again, it's real simple in your mentality,
Carl from your era was like, hey man, you're just
not near that period. You don't go near that, and
(44:13):
that keeps it real simple. And I think that, you know,
the leagues, it's more complicated. I think college is still
on the on the track of hey, you don't go
near that, you know. Now, the fact that the pros
are doing that, does that? Does that cause issue as well? Yeah?
It does, But I thus far I think they've you know,
(44:36):
they haven't made an alliance that I know of well.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
And I was thinking too on the side of that
in IL money, with all this in I OL money
what do you you know, what do you do with that?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Will some of these guys think about betting, gambling with it.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And that's because to.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Me, I think if you an athlete and you're gambling,
I think it's going to be very difficult not to
slide over and bet somewhere in the in the sports.
Speaker 5 (45:10):
Well, I Carl, so you told me a story about
how you had like a broken you know, uh, forearm,
and they're taping this all up to get you to play.
And then they're telling you, well, don't you know, roll
on it a certain way and rebreak your forearm, because
that's a two week you're out Versus if you you know,
(45:32):
put your arm out, then you'll separate your shoulder and
that's six weeks. And and Okay, a normal person doesn't
do that, Carl, Okay, Like you know, at my point
is athletes are unbelievable gamblers. They have They are high
risk takers, that is who they are, Like, they are
way off the chart on willingness to take risk and
(45:55):
they like the gambling. Frankly, kind of that's kind of
the psychological makeup of a pro athlete, frankly, And so yeah,
I mean it's It's something that's always going to be
extremely alluring to an as it's such a challenge. Yeah,
it's a challenge, but it's also it feeds into their competitiveness.
It feeds into hey, this is how I've made my
(46:18):
money taking risks, absolutely all of it. It is a
real real issue, and yeah, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah I don't know what happened, but I got none
of that because I would.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I would.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I was in Vegas in for I was in Vegas
for a week and I might have spent twenty five
dollars the whole week.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
But I just don't think you came up seeing it
how these kids are seeing it now, I'm not I
would agree with that. One of the things I do
outside of the legislative is working you know, behavioral health,
and one of the things that we're seeing is that
you know, we want we run you know, one eight
hundred gamblers at the company I work for, one of
the helplines, and we're seeing it when young men again
(47:05):
twelve thirteen ten, they are coming up in it not
only in direct sports gaming, uh betting, but also like
the little roebucks that everything is tied to a sort
of quasi gambling sort of thing, even like the canster phone,
a chance to win if you know, you give this
and we're gonna you get a chance to win this.
So it's just it's just how you know, we're conditioned.
(47:29):
And I think that to your part, to your point,
Brandon we We, I believe not only do you know sports,
professional sports leagues, but I also think society we have
to take a second look at this and see if
this is the best methodology moving forward, because it creates
a whole stem of problems, whether it's gambling with your
your body, you know, gambling doing something you know, trying
(47:50):
to hit it big somewhere, or you know sports gaming and.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Both of you.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
Just take a lotteries guy, you know, States do these
lotteries and they make money off that. But that's gambling too, truth.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Right, I was gonna so I'm gonna ask you to, like,
do you think anybody I won't. I won't.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I don't know if I want to say anybody, But
there's a whole lot of people. And I think Collis
you were alluding to this just a second ago. You
have this desire of a challenge, of a risk. Does
that because of because of who you are as a
as an athlete. Are we saying that that person is
(48:36):
is a prime candidate for being getting in a situation
to where they could lose a bunch of money, they
could do it illegally, get caught, because they just it's
just a challenge that they are, they're they're going after.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
I would say, and I'll and I'll let you go
Brandon last, But I would say it's not necessarily just
them specifically being an athlete. But I think when you
talk about athlete, when you talk about someone with excess
amount of funds, and when you talk about someone who
is in the know, right, there's nowhere that we don't know, right,
So they're in spaces in rooms that we may not
(49:14):
be privy to. So and in those rooms, it's not
like you just going to casino you can win a
couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand bucks or hit a
slot machine. You may be in rooms where you could
you know, several hundred thousands of dollars or millions or
what have you. So I just think when you talk
about access, when you talk about you know, excess funds,
resources and just having a competitive disposition, it creates like
(49:39):
a cock uh, you know, a toxic cocktail that you
know we're seeing a result of.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
I agree. The only thing I would add to that
is think of, you know, why do people gamble. One
of it is, you know, kind of their constitutional makeup
and their brain. Usually those people have ADHD and they
get hyper focused on something and then the dopamine is
the win, right, And that's the kind of the Usually
(50:09):
those people fit into that mold. But now add to
it head trauma, head injuries. Now you have depression, and
depression is a symptom or one of the manifestations of
that is uncontrolled gambling, right, that is what happens when
people get depressed. So our athletes people that are very
(50:32):
much you know, subject that they absolutely are because those
are issues that they dealt deal with. And again that
that's kind of their personality makeup. So it's for sure
a huge, huge issue.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Well, holler, you got anything else? No, I appreciate you
coming on.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
Provided some great insight and perspective, and yeah, this good
show today, Brandon.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I truly truly appreciate it, you know. And what's what's
funny to me that having you on and having this
kind of this type of conversation is It's kind of
crazy because I wouldn't have I would have never thought
we'd be sitting down having some of a conversation like
this about sports. You know, we you know now after
(51:22):
working with you for a long time, we usually are
sitting around laughing and joking and having a good time.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And you know, but I do truly, truly appreciate you
coming on.
Speaker 5 (51:32):
Thanks guys. It has been an honor and a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
All right, man, you take care, Hollis. I think we
got like a lot of good information. And I know
for you, you you being in that field, as well
as as as Brandon, you all communicated in a in
a way that I don't know if a whole lot
(51:54):
of people could communicate, you know, you knowing the facts
of the things that you know, his facts from where
he knows. And I thought that was I thought that
was interesting because I was learning listening to you all,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:06):
And I thought he made a great point. You know,
when we see these sort of things, and you know,
these headlines and you have these superstar well known athletes
and so forth, who are sort of not only maybe
the face whether knowingly or unknowingly of maybe these illegal
gambling operations and sort of they get wrapped up in it,
(52:26):
which is a whole host of other people who are
you know, involved in probably you know, doing the bulk
of setting it up and just far as you know him,
you know, spelling out the cultural peace to this when
you have you know, the other individuals NBA players or
associates who are evolved in this as far as giving
insider information. To me, that's the most dangerous side of this.
(52:52):
And how do we quell this not only from a
professional sports standpoint, but also from a society stamp point
because we are just so entrenched in gaming. Everywhere you look,
you know, I'm telling you, you look on your phone
for five minutes, you'll see a gaming ad, you look
on television, everywhere you look, it's gaming, gaming, game and gaming.
(53:15):
They're just enticing you to be a part of this.
So how do we you know, do we need to
have you know, disclaimers or do we need to have
where we can sort of you know, have limited ads,
Like what do we do about this? Because it's only
gonna get worse. And to his point, you can't make
a deal with the devil and then expect them not
(53:36):
to come out because it's gonna come out. So you know,
when you have an owner that has allegedly or and
I'll do my research on that, but may have you know,
you know, tithes or interests or investments in gaming sights.
How's that not a conflict of it? It has to be,
you know, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
You know, it's it's it's crazy, and I'm sure it's
only gonna get worse as we as as the days
and weeks past. Yeah, because it's gonna, it's gonna, it's
gonna show up, and it's gonna keep showing out. All right, Well,
ladies and gentlemen, we appreciate you being with us today
and we will be back again next week.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
Let's Talk with Carl Lee as presented by Attorney Frank
Walker and the all new historic Choyr Diner. Come in
on episodes, ask the crew questions or suggest topic on
our Facebook page. Search forard Let's Talk with Carl Lee,
and remember to like the page to become part of
the conversation. Subscribe by searching Let's Talk with Carl Lee
wing your favorite podcast service and tune in Thursday evenings
(54:34):
at seven or Sunday nights at eight for let's talk
with carl Lee m
Speaker 5 (55:01):
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