January 8, 2025 • 55 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Barry Friedman. Barry has been a prominent professional standup comic for decades, but in recent years, he’s started writing. He’s got six books published to date, including his warm and witty series about his father (Jack Sh*t). But he also has a popular humor/political newsletter, and he does…geology writing?
0:00 Opening Thoughts
Bill. Lara, and Jesse make book world predictions for 2025.
7:32 News
1) Deluxe Book Editions Surge in Popularity
2) Arkansas Judge Strikes Down Book-Banning Law
16:21 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers and Emily Brooks, the authors of Write Better Together, discuss the best approaches to narrating your character’s experiences, specifically targeting that old adage you’ve probably heard, “Show don’t tell.” What’s it mean?
19:25 Interview with Barry Friedman
In this hilarious interview, you will learn:
1) how Barry got started in standup comedy;
2) how he transitioned into writing;
3) dealing with grief and death in prose;
4) how his series honors his father; and
5) why he's moving to Portugal.
52:23 Parting Words
Join us for the WriterCon Alaskan Cruise (May 31-June 6, departing from Seattle). We have worked double-hard to find something beautiful but affordable. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and see glaciers. For more info, please visit our website. I’ll leave a link in the show notes. If you have any questions, just email: william@writercon.com.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
0:00 Opening Thoughts
Bill. Lara, and Jesse make book world predictions for 2025.
7:32 News
1) Deluxe Book Editions Surge in Popularity
2) Arkansas Judge Strikes Down Book-Banning Law
16:21 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers and Emily Brooks, the authors of Write Better Together, discuss the best approaches to narrating your character’s experiences, specifically targeting that old adage you’ve probably heard, “Show don’t tell.” What’s it mean?
19:25 Interview with Barry Friedman
In this hilarious interview, you will learn:
1) how Barry got started in standup comedy;
2) how he transitioned into writing;
3) dealing with grief and death in prose;
4) how his series honors his father; and
5) why he's moving to Portugal.
52:23 Parting Words
Join us for the WriterCon Alaskan Cruise (May 31-June 6, departing from Seattle). We have worked double-hard to find something beautiful but affordable. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and see glaciers. For more info, please visit our website. I’ll leave a link in the show notes. If you have any questions, just email: william@writercon.com.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
So you want to write, you sit down and do it.
And then once you do it, once you call yourself
a writer. Once you are a writer. If you're only
motivation is to keep writing, and you keep writing, there's
no getting tired, there's no burnout, there's no blank page.
That's your job.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Welcome to writer Con, the gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want Ln Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today and welcome. Welcome to twenty twenty five. I
hope you've settled into the new year today. As we
are recording, it is bitter cold outside with snow flurry
and so much wind. Buster first little cadio practically flew
(01:05):
across the yard. Did you notice that, Laura, so bad?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, feels like eight degrees.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
And if you hear it, if you hear Baxter the
dog barking, it's because it would just be cruel to
put them out in this So I apologize and if
you hear a noise that sounds like a banshee, that's
the wind I thought they're in this. We need to
make predictions for twenty twenty five, guys, for the book
world predictions. Let's what do you got, Lara? What is
(01:34):
one thing thing's going to happen in the book world
in or to whatever one thing you think is going
to happen in the book world in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I predict for sure that I will continue to be
irritated by the rise in AI people trying to use
AI to cut corners, which I just don't love it all.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You know, I.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Won't go into it that That's my big prediction. And
then my my hope for twenty twenty five is that
my next book is a huge hit.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
To share this, I like, that's a good that's a
good prediction. I predicted this year I'm going to be
incredibly successful, now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Is it. Let's manifest that.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Let's manifest like, yeah, the secret it's possible, thinking, yes,
what about you, Jesse? You got predictions for us?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I do, and listeners of the show, we'll know. We've
talked about how like Barnes and Noble has been trying
to like not reinvent itself but give each of its stores.
It's the ability to sort of like customize itself to
the region in which it lives. My prediction is there
is going to be a sort of resurgence of either
like quasi regional or national book chains like another one's
(02:54):
going to appear.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I feel like, for wanting to go, I think.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
People are going to want to go to a place
they want to go to a place has curated. When
TikTok gets shut down in March, I think there is
going to be a desire for places people can go
to see a curated list of books. And I feel
like either either like local bookstores are going to have
more of a resurgence, or one of the maybe chains
that's shut down or one of the regional chains that
(03:18):
sort of still exists is going to start expanding.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I hope you're right. Or maybe we should pool our
pennies and we should just start one.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Maybe we should do it.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
What's her bookstore going to be called? Writer con of course? Okay,
I'll make it come.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
From prediction everything.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
But James Patterson, Yeah, yeah, and no, just.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
No Patterson, there we go, No Patterson.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Did you guys predict though, that I will continue to
be greatly amused by Ralph's songs that he makes with Ai,
which come from Ai AI that I'm amused by.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you guys read the statistics about
Spotify and basically now they're selling more audiobooks than ebooks.
That's the first time this is I mean, not just Spotify.
That's across the board. We're selling audio books than e books,
(04:25):
but people are attributing it to Spotifying, Spotify doubling down
on audiobooks. As far as predictions, I'm going to predict
that the price books is going up because that's not hard,
especially since, as you probably know, books print books often
have paper in them, and most of our paper comes
(04:46):
from Canada. So if the yeah, there's some paper, there's
so if the predicted tariffs that somebody keeps talking about
going to place books are certain to go up because
the cost of paper is going to go up. I'm
also going to be even more bold and predict that
romanticy has plateaued or as close to it. I don't
(05:10):
know if you guys have looked at the sales figures,
but Rebecca Arris and others had a great twenty twenty five,
and I'm twenty four, and I bet they do all
right this year. But I can see that things are
shifting and there's an opening for something else to become
the next big thing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I have a prediction.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So if you remember in twenty four we talked about
the the hockey romance, you know, Jean, right, I think
I think twenty five is gonna be a year of
pickleball romance novels. So I think it's time.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I thought you were going to say that the hockey
was going to just grow and go maybe feel that.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Oh yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, has anyone written one? We
should do that? We should know.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Our daughters are reading right now ice Breaker.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
And it's a pickleball romance.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
No oh hockey, and they want me in on this.
We're gonna we're gonna read this together and discuss it.
But we maybe we need to branch out.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Quick quick Google search says some people have already done it,
but they don't look great.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Okay, good.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Pickleball second chance romance colon, a romance mystery thriller that's
clearly an AI written novel if I've ever seen one.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
So that's the new trend. When you people listen their
books on Amazon, they give it a long, windy description,
and so.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
The more true.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
I'm irritated by AI written books. It's happening, yeah, already,
all right.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Today we have the pleasure of interviewing a longtime friend
of the podcast and longtime friend of me, and that's
Barry Friedman. He has been a prominent professional stand up
comic for decades, and in recent years he started writing.
He's got six books published to date, including his warm
(06:58):
and witty series about his father. We talked to him
last year when the first volume came out, and now
there's a second one. Plus he's a humor and a
political columnist. He's got a newsletter and he does geography.
Let me say that again, geology writing. Okay, don't turn
(07:19):
it off for skip yet. It's going to be a
lot more interesting than it sounds. I promise. We will
talk to Barry about all that and more. But first
the news news story number one, deluxe editions of books
(07:51):
are hot. Here's one I never thought i'd be saying.
I can remember, like not that many years ago when
people were predicting that print would all be disappear, But
it seems that like Vinyl gen Z is bringing it
back because it's old fashioned and quaint and not just
winning any criminole paperback book or whatever. They are in
(08:13):
large numbers, buying fancy hardcover sometimes slipcase, almost always with
sprayed edges, and interior illustrations are decorated in it, decorated
in papers. That's what we call the deluxe editions. So
I mentioned Rebecca Yars a minute ago. They did the
(08:34):
second book in her series, The Iron Flame. This way,
they printed one hundred and fifteen thousand copies, and they
sold out, and these are higher priced deluxe books, and
then only if it sold out, they sold out quickly.
The publisher complained, eh, should have should have printed more,
But that's what publishers always say. It's either I should
(08:56):
have printed more or I should have printed fewer one
or the other. It's not limited to romanticy, though, although
it did seem to me to focus primarily on books
written by women for women. But for instance, Kristin Hannah,
who I've known forever and you know, not writing romanticy,
(09:16):
but very prominent, and she's got a beautiful deluxe edition
of her new books, so you know it's going all
through the publishing industry. You know what I mean by
the patterned edges when you can look at the side
of a book and it's just as pretty as the cover,
or metallic foil covers, which I should have. Do I
(09:41):
have one here? I'm sorry, I shouldn't look away from
the microphone. I remember when my first book came out
in ninety one and that was all the rage. Then
that embossed with foil covers, and I got one the
first time out. I don't really think it sold books,
but whatever, it looks cool. Some people doing reversible dust
(10:01):
jackets or more elaborate artwork, seeing more artwork on the
end papers. You know what's inside the hardcover before you
get to the pages. Sometimes people put maps there and whatnot.
People are even doing like ribbon bookmarks, you know, like
you saw in really old times bookmarks. It's attached to
the spine so it can go inside, and other kinds
(10:25):
of bonus content, and they seem to be sweeping the industry.
So thanks again, gen Z. You got me back to vinyl,
and now I guess you're going to get me back
to lots of books. Laura, is this going to be
good for publishing?
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I think it already is. It's a big hit. And
of course you've got those boxes that come periodically too.
I think maybe that's what helped spur this on initially.
Perhaps when you have the very loot box that comes
to you regularly, grade edges in them. Who could resist?
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Who could resist?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
We have a lot of books in our house, but
my goodness, you see something that beautiful you can't help
but want a copy of it.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, I think that's the theory, isn't that they're in
a way they're trying to get people to buy the
book a second time. You liked it, Now you want
the fans exactly what they do in the comic book world.
Right with there's the new issue with fourteen variant covers.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Right do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Do you know how many versions of the Lord of
the Rings movie trilogy I have bought in my life?
It's like seven, Because like, technology gets better, and so
there's a newer version, and then there's a special version
that's got cool like you know, you know, book holders
or like a cool you know, hobbitant statue or whatever.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I'm like, fine, I'm right again.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yest's like, well, you got to have the latest and
greatest right.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That's right. Now.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
When James Patterson gets his eight Edges Deluxe book.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
How jeez like, there'd be so many books this law book.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's a book.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
It depends on how many words you put on the page.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
That's true, right. News story number two, this one is
also happy making. An Arkansas judge struck down the statewide
book banning law. This was we talked about it on
the podcast. I remember Arkansas law that could literally have
sent librarians and booksellers to prison for providing material that
(12:36):
supposedly might be considered harmful to minors. Of course, who
gets to decide that, you know, nobody's really well anyway,
it was a misdemeanor, but you can still get up
to a year in prison plus a huge fine if
you are found to have distributed a harmful item to
a minor. But the federal judge struck it down, saying
(12:58):
it was overbroad and violentce to the First Amendment. That
will of course be appealed, But in the meantime, the
thought police, do not fear, have taken control in Arkansas.
Here's a quote from Governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders, governor of Arkansas,
as everybody probably already knows Republican and she said, quote,
(13:21):
schools and libraries shouldn't put obscene material in front of
our kids in quote, but I don't think anybody ever
accused anyone of putting obscenity in front of it. Nobody's
gonna put obscenity in the kiddgarten. All the challenges are
most were about race or LGBTQ issues. Weren't they?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yes, yeah, yes they were.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
So that really is kind of content based censorship. I
don't know, Jesse, what do you think you can go happy? Sad?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean, I'm happy. Like again, it's one of those
things where the words they're using to describe the problem
they're trying to fix is are not describing the things
that are actually happening and are unnecessary in our current system.
Like one again, have people never met kids? Like you
tell a kid they can't read something, that's all they're
(14:13):
going to want to read, first of all, second of all,
like they're in search of a problem that doesn't exist.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Yes, yeah, yes, exactly, which makes it such a waste
of resources. We saw a news article on a case
in Florida where there's one person every day filing day
after day a book bin request over and over and
over again, and it's taking up valuable resources time. It's
(14:45):
incredibly frustrating, and it's going after a problem that, as
you said, doesn't even exist. He's determined that he's going
to decide what children should read. I don't want that
for my I wouldn't want that for my children. Parents
interviewed and it didn't want that for their children. Why
does one person think they Why would one person think
they get to decide what everyone's children should read.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Get a hobby, do something something anything.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
What I said, exactly what I said. That guy could
be putting all of that time and effort into something
truly beneficial, and instead he's wasting time and resources.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
He must have been one of those people who would
like back in the back in the day, would have
like typed on a you know, on a typewriter, like
a note to a TV show complaining about something that
was on that episode.
Speaker 7 (15:34):
Right, yes, yes, their letters and yeah, this is this
is the point where I once again brag because one
of my books was banned in Florida from the schools.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
This is one of my thrillers, Dark Eye. I want
f Yi Lar, I want that on my Tombstone band
in Florida.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
The point is there's nothing remotely racy in this book.
And why would people have a thriller in a junior
high school anyway? I mean, that doesn't belong in the library.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Again, you don't think teenagers this day are seeing much
racier things on the internet than in a library.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Let's announce with ourselves here.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, I agree. All right, let's turn to Kraft Corner today.
In Craft Corner we have John Myers and Emily Brooks.
They're the authors of Write Better Together, and they will
be discussing the best approaches to narrating your authors experiencing experiences.
(16:37):
And you know, you've probably heard that old adage about
show don't tell which. First time I heard it, I thought,
you're going to write a whole book without telling anyone anything.
That is not going to work. What does this actually mean? Well,
they're here to explain it. Take it away, John and Emily.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Quarter Welcome everybody to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm Don
Myers from Write Better Together. Hey, look, everybody's Emily Brooks.
Speaker 8 (17:07):
Hello John Myers. We're going to be talking about narrating
your character's experiences. You don't always have to say in
your narration when your character sees, feels, or even thinks something.
While it's okay to do that every once in a while,
it creates a deeper point of view for your character
if your narration simply shows us what they are experiencing
(17:30):
in the narration. So I have this example from Frederick
Bachman from a man call called Uva. I have altered
his paragraph. I'm going to read the altered paragraph, and
then I'm going to read his original paragraph. I'm added
language to describe his seeing things and thinking things. Ouva
spotted the cat sitting there with a nonchalant expression in
(17:52):
the middle of the footpath that ran between the houses.
He noticed it had half a tail and only one
ear patches of fur we're missing here there, which made
it seem to Uva like someone had pulled it out
in handfuls. He thought it wasn't a very impressive fee line. Okay,
so notice the words he spotted. He noticed made it
seem to Uva, and.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
He thought, I noticed the noticing.
Speaker 8 (18:15):
I'm going to read the original version now and hopefully
you'll notice the difference. The cat sat with a nonchalant
expression in the middle of the footpath that ran between
the houses. It had half a tail and only one ear.
Patches of fur were missing here and there, as if
someone had pulled it out in handfuls. Not a very
impressive feeline.
Speaker 6 (18:32):
It actually strengthens the descriptions. Right by doing it properly,
the pros is more impactful because the descriptors are stronger.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
That last line I think is especially important. It says
not a very impressive fee line. That's not in italics.
It doesn't say he thought that. It's just part of
the narration. I think that brings you closer into the
point of view of the character who's being narrated.
Speaker 6 (18:54):
Thank you, William, Laura and Jeffie for having us on
writer Gun.
Speaker 8 (18:59):
We couldn't have done it without you.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Thank you so much, John and Emily Jesse. It's time
to get zesty. Take us to Barry Friedman. Barry Friedman,
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Do I have the record?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I want to be the one who's been on the
broadcast more than anybody.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
I wouldn't be surprised. We need I think I said
this before. We need those jackets like they have on
SNL that you know, if you've hosted five times, then
you get a special jacket or something. But because there
anybody who's been on more than Barry, you think, so, yeah,
(19:46):
well that's it's always interesting, fun profound. I think I
am probably Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Anybody get close to my record, just call me up
on the show again. Okay, deal, Okay, trying to make
cookies right.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
We're going to talk about a lot of things. But first,
you know traditional first question. If you could offer writers
one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
All right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Remember the director Jose Cantero.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
No, and I know a lot of directors. Who is that?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Gen O'Neil He directed Eugene o Neil and Jason Robarts
on Broadway a million shows. He came to Tulsa. He
does a conference, He does a symposium, and somebody asked
him about acting, and he said, look, you want to act,
you act, You find friends, you find the garage, and
you act. So you want to write, you write. You
(20:43):
sit down and you write.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You've talked about this a million times. It really is true.
You just sit down and you do it. And if
you're lucky enough to actually make a living at it,
and you can't be motivated to keep writing, you lose me.
So you want to write it down and do it.
And then once you do it, once you call yourself
a writer. Once you are a writer. If your only
(21:05):
motivation is to keep writing, and you keep writing, there's
no getting tired, there's no burnout, there's no blank page.
That's your job.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Okay, So we got so many things we can talk
about with you, we should have him on more than once. Laura,
I'm just thinking, but first, you worked for you still
work decades as a stand up comic, and you've also
written what we're up to about six books now. But
first let's start at the beginning. How did this idea,
(21:39):
this dream of being a stand up comic? Where did
that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I was driving on I forty four with my first
wife and there was a message board in one of
the hotels that said comedy contest, first price one hundred dollars,
and she said, you seem kind of bored. Why don't
you try it, really write it?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And I won.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Not a big deal, but I won. Next week, same billboard,
same hotel, another contest, another one hundred dollars, entered that
one one again by a third week.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I'll let you just keep coming.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Well after they stopped doing that after a while, so
I went to the comedy club and started working on
an act because I had open mic nights, amateur nights,
no talent night, whatever you wanted to call it. And
I went and started coming every week writing material, trying
to do it, and about maybe three four months later,
a comedian who I met that week said, you want
(22:35):
to open for me and Rapid Soup Fall South Dakota.
So I had my first gig in Soup Fall South Dakota.
Did a bunch of one nighters in Kansas and Missouri
and Iowa for a year or two or three that
I auditioned for a club in Las Vegas and I
got into the club that catchurizing started Bally's, and then
I started working at Balle's every four or five weeks,
(22:58):
and then that led to another gig to another gig,
and by the nineties I was on this level anyway,
probably appearing in Vegas more than anybody else, because there's
three or four hotels that I was working.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I think you were at the Excelsior when I saw you. No,
not the ex Caliber, that's what.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, yeah, I was. That was one of the hotels,
and Bally's was in the MGM and the Riviera and
the old Maximum Hotel and dunes and a little bit
of the tropicanas. So that's how it all started, and
then from that we got into You to NSK. But
that's where the writing came from. The more you write,
that's where the first book came from, just writing about
the list the previous twenty years of the first twenty
(23:38):
years being a comedian.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, well, I mean you already were a writer because
you're writing this material, right, you're not writing books. But anyway,
go ahead, Lara.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
I just I'm jealous that you got to see him
when he was in Vegas. I think that sounds like
a blast.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I think I even appeared in one of Bill's early books,
don't I.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Oh yeah, at least one, yeah, probably one of the Yeah,
it's in one of the Susan Pulaski books, because they're
SI in Vegas. And so she goes to see a
show and it's you.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's right, Or she couldn't go because somebody was shot
and killed.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Oh well, that's worse, but she was headed to one
way or another. You're in the book. Oh okay. So
as a result of course, everybody expects everything you write
to be funny, and some of it is and some
of it isn't explain that to us.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, what's that great line about the difference between the
comedy is or drama is comedy plus time? I think
I heard that somewhere from somebody, and.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
That's what I would have thought. Comedy is tragedy plus time.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I knew i'd miss it up. That's it. There's time
in their distance and something to do with each other.
So what happened was after the Road Cooma came out,
and the one after.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
The follow that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I think the third fourth book was about my son
who died, as you know, of drugs, and I thought, well,
if I was a if I had any real skill, I
would build him something or plan something or do something
like that. But I didn't, and I thought, let me
see if I can write a story about his life,
particularly specifically the last four days five days right after
(25:35):
he died. And I wanted to see if I could
actually write that. And there's some funny things in that,
but obviously it's the aftermath of his death, and I
wanted to see if I could actually tell a story
about what it's like to experience the aftermath of somebody's
death who shouldn't die. Twenty four year olds are not
supposed to die, and you were nice enough to publish it.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
So at that point I realized.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Well, I can actually do this. I mean I can
do this because you can do it because you're looking
at It's one of the things about being a writer.
You know, the difference between writers who were publishing writers
who aren't published is that somebody has published, and then
your whole perception changes of yourself. You know, a writer,
you look on the shelf, there I am, and that
changes how you write. That changes how you think about
(26:21):
yourself as a writer, and the changes the perception of
people when they know, oh, you're a writer. You write comedy,
and you write about your son, you write politics, you
write geology, whatever it is, and then the ball starts rolling.
Terrible cliche there, but it does happen that you then
start becoming this thing called the writer.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Ye you want to.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Put turn on on low because it's very pretentious, but
there is something to that. And you both know this
that you know when you write, when you sit down
and you do it, you realize there's a thing to
doing it. It's not just impulse and it's not just
the light from above that hits you. There is an
actual thing to doing it, and you have to honor
(27:02):
that thing about doing it. Whatever you're writing and wanting
to be a writer is kind of easy. Calling yourself
a writer is kind of easy, but actually doing it.
So the more you do it, the more I felt.
The more I did it, the more I felt like
I could actually call myself a writer. Interesting about that
was I knew a guy who was a toll take
toll taker back when they had toll takers.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I think, I know the guy you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Go ahead, and I remember thinking, I can't wake up
tomorrow morning and call myself a toll taker, because you
got to get trained, you got to get hired, you
got to get placed. But he could wake up and
call himself a writer the next day. I thought that
was tremendously unfair. You were just allowed to do that, right.
(27:50):
At some point, I thought, you need to treat it seriously,
and you need to however you need however that seriousness
becomes your life.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You didn't ask any of this, sorry, but that's how
that's really how it happens. You know Bill Martin, right,
that great story about when he came and we're at
the same conference and he told the writers that you
you get up every morning and you go to your workspace.
But before you go to workspace, you have breakfast, you
get dressed, you put on shoes, and you go to work.
(28:25):
I remember thinking, shoes. Nobody wears shoes. That's the whole
point being a writer. You don't have to wear shoes,
but he's dress that helps you take this seriously. You're
going somewhere to do this thing that you want to do,
that you love doing, that you think is important. So
if you don't know how to get started as a writer,
(28:45):
I would just tell you to put shoes.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
On, yeah, the most important, and then maybe write something. Yeah.
I don't, you know, I don't for that matter. I
never put on shoes. But I know people who are
very successful, but they still like take the train downtown
and go to their office and were and I think
I do that in my recliner every day. But it
works better for them if they like you're saying, if
(29:10):
you don't like a job, Okay, speaking of jobs, you
have just released this book Covering Over My Head, it's
the second book in your ongoing series of hilarious and
warm and witty tributes to your father, featuring a word
in the title that we can't say without getting banned
(29:30):
by the podcast police, but anyway you can probably figure
it out. It's Jack Blank two, which is appropriate. It's
an appropriate title for this book right.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Right, because the whole Jack series is about the last
twenty years of my father's life. And as you know,
and you coined the phrase, it will be the only
four part trilogy in the history publishing that The the
first section, the first segment was his years in Las Vegas.
(30:04):
The second segment, over your shoulder, is the years in
Tulsa before he went to the Tulsa Jewish Community retirement center,
which he calls the Hebrew Home. Be Part three that's
coming out this year, and then Part four will be
the last year of his life. I could not figure
(30:24):
out a way to join that with Part three, so
chapter four is just going to be the actual last
year of his life. And the thing about the book,
this serious part of the book is even from the beginning,
you know this man is going to die. There's no
and the problem or the obstacle was is that important,
(30:47):
and I found it really wasn't as important as those
last twenty years of his life. And it hit me
that the last twenty years of his life wasn't about
waiting to die. It literally was about going to buffets
and gambling and going to the bagel place. That really
what mattered were the moments, and those moments involved him
(31:09):
usually winning the conversation, usually having an insight, which now
seems a lot more profound than it was then. Just
a quick example about that he was doing. He was
an accountant and did accounting long after he should have stopped,
and at one point he was doing he was ninety
three at the time. He's doing an eighty five year
(31:31):
old Yugoslavian doctor's tax return who was also a landlord
in New York. These tax returns can be like twenty
pages long. My father had seven items filled out on
the seven lines of twenty pages. I said to my father,
the irs is going to audit Peter. You cannot send
him this tax return. And my father said, so they
(31:52):
don't like it, they'll send him a letter. That's your
quality control, all right. So what's funny about that? Was
I do that bit on stage and somebody comes up
to me an actual CPA and says, I got to
tell you some because I enjoyed that joke as much
as anybody. But that's exactly what the irs is gonna do.
They're not gonna send somebody out, they're not gonna arrest them.
(32:14):
They're gonna send him a letter. And I thought that's brilliant.
And it hit me that my father, in all these
comments and all these stories and all these absurdities and
these these weird connections he was making, was never entirely
wrong m hmm. And while it was going on, it
played for laughs. It was funny. It was my father's world.
(32:36):
The rest were just we're just visiting. But that's what
hit me ever since he died, that how close he
was to the truth and the insights all along. And
I thought I had captured most of those moments and
understood most of those moments, but even I missed it.
And the whole book, with the whole series, is about
not missing moments because you know he's not going to
be here soon. I don't know what soon meant, but
(33:00):
even then I missed it, and that's what hit me.
And that's what I did that Ted talk was that
The idea was to capture the person and not my
grief about the person dying trying to do that. Look
about Paul as well, The important thing was him, not me.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Well, that's what I love about these books. It's such
a it's a topical issue, it's weighty subject matter, and
yet they're delightful to read and very informative. I mean,
we're all just getting older, that's we're all going to
face this. And look how he continued to live to
(33:39):
the very end. He was he was enjoying himself and
making the most out of every day. That's what I
took out of the books, and I love it and
tell it so well.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
That's that's really what The last thing he said to me,
the last words he said to me, he was he
was in the hospital. He was aspirating, so he couldn't
have any walk her. He was you know, but if
he had any water, he drowned to death. This way,
he was just going to suffocate it. It's a terrible
way to die, but it was only a two days worth.
And I said, look at I cannot get you any water.
(34:10):
I couldn't explain to him, but I cannot get you
any water. He goes, what good do you get the
hell out of here? I said, you're throwing me. He said, yeah,
get out. I said, let me let me get the nurse.
Maybe she'll be able to get something for you cold wash, Gregg,
maybe you can bite into it or something. And he said,
she's not going to do anything. She's a Republican.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Was a joke.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Runs from the family.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
I understand that there's actually going to be four books.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Four books, Yes, four books, so.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
We're going to have the four book trilogy. So, just
like one of my favorite authors, Douglas Adams his Hitchhiker's
Hide to the Galaxy, it's a four book trilogy following
excellent footsteps.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Yeah, or five maybe. I seem to remember Adam saying
that the this is the fifth volume in the increasingly
inaccurately named trilogy something like that.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
I'm not sure that one was. I'm not sure it
was finished before.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
This one.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Doorish it. And again, Bill, thank you for letting me
do the fourth one because the third one could not
fit everything I wanted to put.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
In that well, it's better break it up than have
some huge, long thing. That's you know, that's part of
growing up at the moment when we realized that our
parents aren't quite as clueless as we thought they were
when we were younger. My dad, who passed a couple
of years ago, maybe the only person on earth who
(35:40):
actually benefited from an irs at audit. I mean, I
don't know why they came out, but they spent like
a month at our house messing around with the receipts
and finally not only did not find anything wrong, but
found a couple of deductions he'd missed. Hed he benefited
about fifteen thousand bucks as a result of ignat it.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
That's one of them.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
The other thing is that you probably got from your
father and mother obviously, but your father, is that at
some point, like in my father's case, that him being
my father wasn't as important as him being Jack Friedman.
That these people actually had lives before they had any
connection to you, before you were tethered to them. He
(36:26):
was Jack Friedman, and in his mind, there's a good
part of him that was always Jack Freedman, not Barry's
dad or Florence's husband, And that was something that it
took me a while to realize that's who I'm dealing with.
Here because at some point the parent child thing gets
discombobulated and you realize, I'm talking to a grown man
(36:47):
who's ninety three, who knows more than I think he does,
but can also understand that things are not working as
well as they used to.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah. Yeah. In addition to this book, you've also got
a newsletter, Yeah, distributed through substack, which is doing really well.
It's a sort of a blend of humor and politics
and sometimes other things.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Tell us about that again, it's it started out as
a political blog, and then it morphed into some comedy
and some weekly features like a Friday list where I
just have the ten craziest things that happened that week.
And also lately I have been featuring an author every
(37:31):
day with a quote from his or her work, and
I'm up to about ninety seven authors now. Started a
couple of years ago, and like last week, I did Momonodes.
Next week I'm going to do I think Tennessee Williams,
and then there's Gordoma, and then there's I mean, obviously
Joseph Heller have done and Philip Roth, Nolan Mayler, and
(37:53):
I try to find authors either that I have read
more likely should have read I should know their work,
and I actually just featured their work from five or
six of their books every week. That starts off the
week every morning. Then on Mondays I do a story
of something that happened in the news, and depth Wednesday
(38:15):
I do a sort of a fake headline list called
heads or Tails t a l e. S. Thursday I
do something with Thursday I do something with Charlie Peers
at Esquire. I submit something and he publishes it. And
Friday do my Friday List. And every other week I
do a political column that I wrote for publication called
(38:36):
Progressive Populist. So it seems to be working pretty well.
But again, as we talked earlier, that's pretty much it.
There were weeks I don't have a lot to say,
and I realized, wait a minute, people are paying money
now to hear you, to read you, so you can't
be motivated to sit down and write them something.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
At this job.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
This is what you wanted to do, and you can
do it, and you can't sit down to do it.
You can never complain about anything again. And it takes
me about, you know, ten minutes to get down there.
And interestingly, I hadn't really tracked this. Every time I
decide to post something, when I don't really feel like
posting something, I will invariably pick up a subscriber or too.
(39:21):
I don't think you see that's why you picked the
subscriber up. But he or she read something that they liked.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And so yeah, yeah, a big success. Though. Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
After living for decades in Tulsa, I hear you're contemplating
a move overseas.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Contemplation about that?
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Is that? Is that fair to share with the world.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, I'm going next month. I am moving to Portugal
University down there. And the adventure of it hit me
and Melissa, my wife, back in March. That had no
to do with politics, or very little to do with politics,
and we started the process and they have a really
attractive retirement visa which I could get and it was
(40:13):
all approved back in December last month and February fifteenth,
I go, and we'll see how it works.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Good thing.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You can still stay connected with people. But I'm going
to try and do it over there. Politics, you know,
since the election, has something to do with it, but
mostly it's just this window in my life. I guess
we all have these windows where you think I got
to do this now, because I wasn't going to do
it when my father was alive. I wasn't going to
leave Tulsoll he was here. I couldn't see having the
(40:43):
strength or inclination to do it when I was seventy
five or eighty. This just seems to be the moment
to do it. So we're going to try it. And
it may be a really stupid decision, but at least
we won't regret it.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
You won't spend the rest of your life saying darn,
we said gone to Portugal, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
But I don't think I'm going to spend the rest
of my life thinking damn, I should have stayed in Tulson.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
You can always come back, right, It can always come back.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
That's exactly right, can always come back.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
But there is one very important thing we've not discussed yet,
and that, of course, would be your geology writing.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, I've been writing.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Everybody listening right now is saying, what what's geology writing?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
A dear friend of mine thirty thirty five years ago
was the editor of the American Association of Petroleum Geologist
Explore magazine, and he thought I could write, and he
started giving me some features to write. And these associations
pretty much exist to give old white guys awards. That's
really why they have any reason to live. And they
(41:52):
all get awarded something and then there's features written about them.
Well I can do those, and I do other stories
that have involved too much scientific jargon. And you know,
really thank God for cutting paste, because I'm not sure
how I would lest otherwise. And you put this story
together and you understand what's allowable what's not. And it's
(42:18):
formulaic writing. But what I like about it is you
ever find either one of you when you write about
something you don't really care about viscerally, you find yourself
writing some of your best work. Does it ever hit you,
just the objectivity of it, that you're here and it's there.
(42:39):
Somehow your writing becomes more focused, certainly less self conscious,
and just you tackle the issues surprisingly even to yourself.
I mean, I've written some articles then I haven't thought
anything of I mean, the editor will call and say
I how to change your lead to go?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I mean, I really don't care. You do good, junt,
contentious job. But you know, if they don't like the
lead about these rocks, change the lead. But when people
have written I've written about will write me and say,
nobody's ever written that about when, or no one ever
dealt with that topic really, So it is kind of
(43:19):
a nice exercise for me to sit down and write
about something I don't really really care about. And I
guess the other reason, let's be frank about this is
that it pays a lot of the bills.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
That's always helpful too.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You know, you do this writing so you can do
the writing you want. But do I know anything about geology.
I know that when you have dirt you put water on,
it becomes mud. That's pretty much what I know about you.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Some of this is oil and gas related. I'm guessing
it's all oil and gas related, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
So I get to write about, you know, carbon capture,
and I get to write about geologic plays, and I
get to write about the Gulf of Mexico and try
and stay away from politics, which is impossible when it
comes to oil and gas exploration. But it's one of
these gigs that I've been known for a long time,
and every month he calls and says, do you have
(44:12):
any room on your plate for these articles? And I
have plenty of room on my plate to make money
as a writer, So I write them, and I always
write the geologist an email. I could talk to them,
but I would be lost if they talk back to me.
So if I send them a list of questions, they
answered me in the email, and then I have two
(44:34):
screens opening and I can actually move their words back
and forth. So yeah, it's one of those gigs that
I fell into, and I am amazed as anybody's still
knowing of.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
See, this reminds me of the writing I used to
do when I was practicing law, you know, and you're
having to write briefs and all that kind of stuff
every day. And not only do I not think that
was my best work, I kind of tremble at the
thought that someday I become so famous that some researcher
digs all that garbage up. Let it lie, guys.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Well, the one time I actually tried to insert something
in one of these articles, they were doing a story
about offshore drilling, California offshore drilling, and I remember reading
that Joan Didion once had a quote that the quote
was that one gets the feeling when one moved to
California the things had better work out there because there
(45:30):
we run out of continent. It was a great lead
for offshore drilling.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
We run out of continent.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
So I write that in. I actually weaved it in.
I thought it was a great lead to the story.
And when the story came out they dropped the whole
Joan Didion reference, even though her father was a jology apparently,
And I said, why would you drop it? It was
actually made sense, gave some color to this otherwise dry story.
And the editor said, because the higher ups had no
(45:58):
idea who she was.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
So there you go, There you go, Laura, I've been
totally hogging this interview. What's the one question you've always
wanted to ask? Barry?
Speaker 5 (46:12):
What does your writing process look like? You talked about
treating it like a job, and we absolutely are on
the same page that that's how the writing gets done.
And I think when I hear from people that are
stalled out, they don't they expect. They like the idea
(46:34):
of being a writer, but not actually sitting down and writing.
So what is your process like from day to day?
Obviously it's probably different when you're writing a geology article
or working on one of your books, but how do
you keep yourself moving forward on that.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Just a quick story. My daughter asked me one time,
she said, when you write, do you ever just write
just to write therapeutically or just to get through a moment?
And I said no, and she said, you'd be surprised
how many people write for just that very reason. Shaid,
everything you write has somewhere to go, and that changes how.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
You look at your writing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
You know, you actually say to yourself, I have to
get this to them. I have a deadline, and so
that is essentially what motivates me. And the other is
just simply if you look at your output. Now, Bill,
you have how many hundreds of books? You have sixty
books out?
Speaker 4 (47:35):
I think we're at sixty five published.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
You have ten seven seven.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Well, eighth manuscript is with my agent right now, being shocked.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Okay, now, both of you, if you decided you were
going to write just when you were motivated, just when
you felt like the light from above came to you,
I would say to you, you could do that. Look
at your output. However you've been doing this, this works
for you. I used to joke that if Bob Dylan
wrote mister Tambourine Man on Monday, he could take the
(48:06):
rest of the week off, you're done, done to work
for the week. So I think people if they don't
know whether they should sit down nine to five and
write or wait for that kind of strange impulse. That's
strange encouragement to look at your output and see what
you're writing and if you're writing and publishing or doing
the work and you're waiting for that impulse, and keep
(48:27):
doing that. But if your if your input output is
not there, excuse me. If your output is not there,
then sit down and make a schedule and treat it
like a job. So in my case, mostly I write
because I have things that need to be done, even
though it's a lot of it's my own deadlines. I
don't really write a certain amount every day unless I
(48:49):
have to, And invariably, when I will write something, it
will take much longer than I wanted to write, but
at least I know where it's going. So I have
a column coming out tomorrow which shouldn't have taken me
six hours, but it has because I can, and it's
not due till tomorrow, and it's mine and I want
it to be what it is. So I don't know
if that answers your question, but really depends on what
(49:10):
you want to do. If you're writing your first novel
and it's not working, or you're not having any time
to write because you're waiting to sit down for when
you feel like writing, then get up at five o'clock
in the morning before you go to work and write.
Speaker 5 (49:25):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
If it's not a board of you, then it's not
I mean, nobody's waiting for your book. But if you
really want to get that book done, you know, find
the time to do it. If you can't find the
time to do it, then you make the time to
do it.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Luckily.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
I like that. I've had people tell me that they
they can't follow this schedule or that schedule. My advice
is find the schedule that does work for you and
then stick to it.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
And when you think about how much time people spend
watching TV and being on Facebook or doing whatever, there's
probably an hour or two during the day where they're
doing other things besides writing, and by all means do it.
But if you want to write a novel, you're probably
gonna need that time. It's like reading, you know, It's like,
(50:13):
how do you read a book anymore? With there's so
many distractions. And I've decided there's a formula. So you
read two chapters, then you go check your email, you
get to then you get to read a chapter, and
then you can check Facebook. You cannot spend all your
time on social media or talking about writing and not
(50:34):
actually sitting down and doing it.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
Yeah, all right, Berry. One last question, what can we
look forward to seeing from you from the other side
of the Atlantic Ocean in the future.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Well, I'm actually thinking it's a great question. I'm actually
thinking that it would be too cliche to write my
first year in Portugal.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
No, I would think a lot of people have done
more with less, And I bet you would be a
sensational travel writer.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Yeah so, I think Mark.
Speaker 4 (51:05):
Twain was a humorist. His biggest hits, though, were his
travel books best sellers.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, so I think I'm going to do think about that. Uh.
I guess the political angle with that would be I
actually got out. I mean, there are people who do
want to leave the country, and a lot of it
is just that first impulse I hated here, I'm leaving.
But there's a whole process you got to go through.
Even though my process went pretty smoothly. It's it's it's
(51:32):
a it's a deal, it's a thing. So I think
that would be my first thought about Portugal. It's just
I'm here, my life is there. I know nobody in Portugal, nobody,
which means there's going to be nobody who knows me,
which means there's no restaurant, there's no table, there's no
(51:52):
special sandwich, nothing. And I think that could be an
interesting story about how you actually make it in a
foreign land. Or that's somewhat of a cliche, but I
think that's what I'm hoping for if I ever get
rid of the jack.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Sounds so good to me. Hey, if you're leaving, can
I have your table at the Babel bagel shop because
we get.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
We'll get it remade for it. Yea, for sure for
Barish people or Burry.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Here you Bury in company. Yeah, Barry, thanks for being
another podcast again. We really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
It, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Enjoyed it as always.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Let's see you both, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Now by.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Just a couple of parting words, I'm going to remind
you again that we've got the writer con Cruise coming
up in just a few months at the end of May.
I think, isn't it Laara April? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And
and you can read all about it at the website.
That's writercon dot com slash cruise, but it's an Alaskan
(53:03):
cruise leaving out of Seattle, and I think this is
going to be a blast. Plus when the boat's not in,
you know, in a port somewhere, we're going to do stuff.
We're going to be holding The writing classes will have
more than twenty hours of writing instruction. That's big group,
that's medium sized, that's very small, critique groups. Whatever you
(53:26):
are looking for, that's what we're going to provide because
we keep the group small so we can very much
tailor the presentation to the people who are there. Right
go to the website. If you have any questions, email me.
You know it is, you know, more complicated than I wish.
You got to pay for the course and then you've
(53:47):
got to call the cruise line and book your room.
But that's the only way we could do it. Use
the code that we provide on the website. Tell them
it's your part of writer Con. But uh, there is
you know, there are so many room choices. That's if
we did it, we'd have to give everybody the same room,
(54:09):
and everybody doesn't want the same room. Some people want
single double, some people want a balcony. Some people don't care.
So go to the website. If you have any questions,
email me W I. L L B E. R N
at gmail dot com. Would love to hear from you,
and I would especially love to have you on this
cruise because we're not only going to talk shop all out,
(54:30):
we're gonna have a great time. Let me also remind
you that writer Con has its own newsletter and magazine,
and man, you don't want to miss out on that
because they are both fabulous and the newsletter is completely free.
So go to substack, search for writer Con and join today.
All right, until next time, keep writing and remember you
(54:56):
cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you next
time
Speaker 2 (55:02):
And
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
So you want to write, you sit down and do it.
And then once you do it, once you call yourself
a writer. Once you are a writer. If you're only
motivation is to keep writing, and you keep writing, there's
no getting tired, there's no burnout, there's no blank page.
That's your job.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Welcome to writer Con, the gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want Ln Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today and welcome. Welcome to twenty twenty five. I
hope you've settled into the new year today. As we
are recording, it is bitter cold outside with snow flurry
and so much wind. Buster first little cadio practically flew
(01:05):
across the yard. Did you notice that, Laura, so bad?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, feels like eight degrees.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
And if you hear it, if you hear Baxter the
dog barking, it's because it would just be cruel to
put them out in this So I apologize and if
you hear a noise that sounds like a banshee, that's
the wind I thought they're in this. We need to
make predictions for twenty twenty five, guys, for the book
world predictions. Let's what do you got, Lara? What is
(01:34):
one thing thing's going to happen in the book world
in or to whatever one thing you think is going
to happen in the book world in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
I predict for sure that I will continue to be
irritated by the rise in AI people trying to use
AI to cut corners, which I just don't love it all.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You know, I.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Won't go into it that That's my big prediction. And
then my my hope for twenty twenty five is that
my next book is a huge hit.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
To share this, I like, that's a good that's a
good prediction. I predicted this year I'm going to be
incredibly successful, now.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Is it. Let's manifest that.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Let's manifest like, yeah, the secret it's possible, thinking, yes,
what about you, Jesse? You got predictions for us?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I do, and listeners of the show, we'll know. We've
talked about how like Barnes and Noble has been trying
to like not reinvent itself but give each of its stores.
It's the ability to sort of like customize itself to
the region in which it lives. My prediction is there
is going to be a sort of resurgence of either
like quasi regional or national book chains like another one's
(02:54):
going to appear.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I feel like, for wanting to go, I think.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
People are going to want to go to a place
they want to go to a place has curated. When
TikTok gets shut down in March, I think there is
going to be a desire for places people can go
to see a curated list of books. And I feel
like either either like local bookstores are going to have
more of a resurgence, or one of the maybe chains
that's shut down or one of the regional chains that
(03:18):
sort of still exists is going to start expanding.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I hope you're right. Or maybe we should pool our
pennies and we should just start one.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Maybe we should do it.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
What's her bookstore going to be called? Writer con of course? Okay,
I'll make it come.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
From prediction everything.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
But James Patterson, Yeah, yeah, and no, just.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
No Patterson, there we go, No Patterson.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Did you guys predict though, that I will continue to
be greatly amused by Ralph's songs that he makes with Ai,
which come from Ai AI that I'm amused by.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you guys read the statistics about
Spotify and basically now they're selling more audiobooks than ebooks.
That's the first time this is I mean, not just Spotify.
That's across the board. We're selling audio books than e books,
(04:25):
but people are attributing it to Spotifying, Spotify doubling down
on audiobooks. As far as predictions, I'm going to predict
that the price books is going up because that's not hard,
especially since, as you probably know, books print books often
have paper in them, and most of our paper comes
(04:46):
from Canada. So if the yeah, there's some paper, there's
so if the predicted tariffs that somebody keeps talking about
going to place books are certain to go up because
the cost of paper is going to go up. I'm
also going to be even more bold and predict that
romanticy has plateaued or as close to it. I don't
(05:10):
know if you guys have looked at the sales figures,
but Rebecca Arris and others had a great twenty twenty five,
and I'm twenty four, and I bet they do all
right this year. But I can see that things are
shifting and there's an opening for something else to become
the next big thing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I have a prediction.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So if you remember in twenty four we talked about
the the hockey romance, you know, Jean, right, I think
I think twenty five is gonna be a year of
pickleball romance novels. So I think it's time.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I thought you were going to say that the hockey
was going to just grow and go maybe feel that.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Oh yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, has anyone written one? We
should do that? We should know.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Our daughters are reading right now ice Breaker.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
And it's a pickleball romance.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
No oh hockey, and they want me in on this.
We're gonna we're gonna read this together and discuss it.
But we maybe we need to branch out.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Quick quick Google search says some people have already done it,
but they don't look great.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Okay, good.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Pickleball second chance romance colon, a romance mystery thriller that's
clearly an AI written novel if I've ever seen one.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
So that's the new trend. When you people listen their
books on Amazon, they give it a long, windy description,
and so.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
The more true.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
I'm irritated by AI written books. It's happening, yeah, already,
all right.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Today we have the pleasure of interviewing a longtime friend
of the podcast and longtime friend of me, and that's
Barry Friedman. He has been a prominent professional stand up
comic for decades, and in recent years he started writing.
He's got six books published to date, including his warm
(06:58):
and witty series about his father. We talked to him
last year when the first volume came out, and now
there's a second one. Plus he's a humor and a
political columnist. He's got a newsletter and he does geography.
Let me say that again, geology writing. Okay, don't turn
(07:19):
it off for skip yet. It's going to be a
lot more interesting than it sounds. I promise. We will
talk to Barry about all that and more. But first
the news news story number one, deluxe editions of books
(07:51):
are hot. Here's one I never thought i'd be saying.
I can remember, like not that many years ago when
people were predicting that print would all be disappear, But
it seems that like Vinyl gen Z is bringing it
back because it's old fashioned and quaint and not just
winning any criminole paperback book or whatever. They are in
(08:13):
large numbers, buying fancy hardcover sometimes slipcase, almost always with
sprayed edges, and interior illustrations are decorated in it, decorated
in papers. That's what we call the deluxe editions. So
I mentioned Rebecca Yars a minute ago. They did the
(08:34):
second book in her series, The Iron Flame. This way,
they printed one hundred and fifteen thousand copies, and they
sold out, and these are higher priced deluxe books, and
then only if it sold out, they sold out quickly.
The publisher complained, eh, should have should have printed more,
But that's what publishers always say. It's either I should
(08:56):
have printed more or I should have printed fewer one
or the other. It's not limited to romanticy, though, although
it did seem to me to focus primarily on books
written by women for women. But for instance, Kristin Hannah,
who I've known forever and you know, not writing romanticy,
(09:16):
but very prominent, and she's got a beautiful deluxe edition
of her new books, so you know it's going all
through the publishing industry. You know what I mean by
the patterned edges when you can look at the side
of a book and it's just as pretty as the cover,
or metallic foil covers, which I should have. Do I
(09:41):
have one here? I'm sorry, I shouldn't look away from
the microphone. I remember when my first book came out
in ninety one and that was all the rage. Then
that embossed with foil covers, and I got one the
first time out. I don't really think it sold books,
but whatever, it looks cool. Some people doing reversible dust
(10:01):
jackets or more elaborate artwork, seeing more artwork on the
end papers. You know what's inside the hardcover before you
get to the pages. Sometimes people put maps there and whatnot.
People are even doing like ribbon bookmarks, you know, like
you saw in really old times bookmarks. It's attached to
the spine so it can go inside, and other kinds
(10:25):
of bonus content, and they seem to be sweeping the industry.
So thanks again, gen Z. You got me back to vinyl,
and now I guess you're going to get me back
to lots of books. Laura, is this going to be
good for publishing?
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I think it already is. It's a big hit. And
of course you've got those boxes that come periodically too.
I think maybe that's what helped spur this on initially.
Perhaps when you have the very loot box that comes
to you regularly, grade edges in them. Who could resist?
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Who could resist?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
We have a lot of books in our house, but
my goodness, you see something that beautiful you can't help
but want a copy of it.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, I think that's the theory, isn't that they're in
a way they're trying to get people to buy the
book a second time. You liked it, Now you want
the fans exactly what they do in the comic book world.
Right with there's the new issue with fourteen variant covers.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Right do you know?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Do you know how many versions of the Lord of
the Rings movie trilogy I have bought in my life?
It's like seven, Because like, technology gets better, and so
there's a newer version, and then there's a special version
that's got cool like you know, you know, book holders
or like a cool you know, hobbitant statue or whatever.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I'm like, fine, I'm right again.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yest's like, well, you got to have the latest and
greatest right.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That's right. Now.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
When James Patterson gets his eight Edges Deluxe book.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
How jeez like, there'd be so many books this law book.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's a book.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
It depends on how many words you put on the page.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
That's true, right. News story number two, this one is
also happy making. An Arkansas judge struck down the statewide
book banning law. This was we talked about it on
the podcast. I remember Arkansas law that could literally have
sent librarians and booksellers to prison for providing material that
(12:36):
supposedly might be considered harmful to minors. Of course, who
gets to decide that, you know, nobody's really well anyway,
it was a misdemeanor, but you can still get up
to a year in prison plus a huge fine if
you are found to have distributed a harmful item to
a minor. But the federal judge struck it down, saying
(12:58):
it was overbroad and violentce to the First Amendment. That
will of course be appealed, But in the meantime, the
thought police, do not fear, have taken control in Arkansas.
Here's a quote from Governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders, governor of Arkansas,
as everybody probably already knows Republican and she said, quote,
(13:21):
schools and libraries shouldn't put obscene material in front of
our kids in quote, but I don't think anybody ever
accused anyone of putting obscenity in front of it. Nobody's
gonna put obscenity in the kiddgarten. All the challenges are
most were about race or LGBTQ issues. Weren't they?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yes, yeah, yes they were.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
So that really is kind of content based censorship. I
don't know, Jesse, what do you think you can go happy? Sad?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean, I'm happy. Like again, it's one of those
things where the words they're using to describe the problem
they're trying to fix is are not describing the things
that are actually happening and are unnecessary in our current system.
Like one again, have people never met kids? Like you
tell a kid they can't read something, that's all they're
(14:13):
going to want to read, first of all, second of all,
like they're in search of a problem that doesn't exist.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Yes, yeah, yes, exactly, which makes it such a waste
of resources. We saw a news article on a case
in Florida where there's one person every day filing day
after day a book bin request over and over and
over again, and it's taking up valuable resources time. It's
(14:45):
incredibly frustrating, and it's going after a problem that, as
you said, doesn't even exist. He's determined that he's going
to decide what children should read. I don't want that
for my I wouldn't want that for my children. Parents
interviewed and it didn't want that for their children. Why
does one person think they Why would one person think
they get to decide what everyone's children should read.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Get a hobby, do something something anything.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
What I said, exactly what I said. That guy could
be putting all of that time and effort into something
truly beneficial, and instead he's wasting time and resources.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
He must have been one of those people who would
like back in the back in the day, would have
like typed on a you know, on a typewriter, like
a note to a TV show complaining about something that
was on that episode.
Speaker 7 (15:34):
Right, yes, yes, their letters and yeah, this is this
is the point where I once again brag because one
of my books was banned in Florida from the schools.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
This is one of my thrillers, Dark Eye. I want
f Yi Lar, I want that on my Tombstone band
in Florida.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
The point is there's nothing remotely racy in this book.
And why would people have a thriller in a junior
high school anyway? I mean, that doesn't belong in the library.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Again, you don't think teenagers this day are seeing much
racier things on the internet than in a library.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Let's announce with ourselves here.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, I agree. All right, let's turn to Kraft Corner today.
In Craft Corner we have John Myers and Emily Brooks.
They're the authors of Write Better Together, and they will
be discussing the best approaches to narrating your authors experiencing experiences.
(16:37):
And you know, you've probably heard that old adage about
show don't tell which. First time I heard it, I thought,
you're going to write a whole book without telling anyone anything.
That is not going to work. What does this actually mean? Well,
they're here to explain it. Take it away, John and Emily.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Quarter Welcome everybody to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm Don
Myers from Write Better Together. Hey, look, everybody's Emily Brooks.
Speaker 8 (17:07):
Hello John Myers. We're going to be talking about narrating
your character's experiences. You don't always have to say in
your narration when your character sees, feels, or even thinks something.
While it's okay to do that every once in a while,
it creates a deeper point of view for your character
if your narration simply shows us what they are experiencing
(17:30):
in the narration. So I have this example from Frederick
Bachman from a man call called Uva. I have altered
his paragraph. I'm going to read the altered paragraph, and
then I'm going to read his original paragraph. I'm added
language to describe his seeing things and thinking things. Ouva
spotted the cat sitting there with a nonchalant expression in
(17:52):
the middle of the footpath that ran between the houses.
He noticed it had half a tail and only one
ear patches of fur we're missing here there, which made
it seem to Uva like someone had pulled it out
in handfuls. He thought it wasn't a very impressive fee line. Okay,
so notice the words he spotted. He noticed made it
seem to Uva, and.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
He thought, I noticed the noticing.
Speaker 8 (18:15):
I'm going to read the original version now and hopefully
you'll notice the difference. The cat sat with a nonchalant
expression in the middle of the footpath that ran between
the houses. It had half a tail and only one ear.
Patches of fur were missing here and there, as if
someone had pulled it out in handfuls. Not a very
impressive feeline.
Speaker 6 (18:32):
It actually strengthens the descriptions. Right by doing it properly,
the pros is more impactful because the descriptors are stronger.
Speaker 8 (18:41):
That last line I think is especially important. It says
not a very impressive fee line. That's not in italics.
It doesn't say he thought that. It's just part of
the narration. I think that brings you closer into the
point of view of the character who's being narrated.
Speaker 6 (18:54):
Thank you, William, Laura and Jeffie for having us on
writer Gun.
Speaker 8 (18:59):
We couldn't have done it without you.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Thank you so much, John and Emily Jesse. It's time
to get zesty. Take us to Barry Friedman. Barry Friedman,
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Do I have the record?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I want to be the one who's been on the
broadcast more than anybody.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
I wouldn't be surprised. We need I think I said
this before. We need those jackets like they have on
SNL that you know, if you've hosted five times, then
you get a special jacket or something. But because there
anybody who's been on more than Barry, you think, so, yeah,
(19:46):
well that's it's always interesting, fun profound. I think I
am probably Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Anybody get close to my record, just call me up
on the show again. Okay, deal, Okay, trying to make
cookies right.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
We're going to talk about a lot of things. But first,
you know traditional first question. If you could offer writers
one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
All right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Remember the director Jose Cantero.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
No, and I know a lot of directors. Who is that?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Gen O'Neil He directed Eugene o Neil and Jason Robarts
on Broadway a million shows. He came to Tulsa. He
does a conference, He does a symposium, and somebody asked
him about acting, and he said, look, you want to act,
you act, You find friends, you find the garage, and
you act. So you want to write, you write. You
(20:43):
sit down and you write.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
You've talked about this a million times. It really is true.
You just sit down and you do it. And if
you're lucky enough to actually make a living at it,
and you can't be motivated to keep writing, you lose me.
So you want to write it down and do it.
And then once you do it, once you call yourself
a writer. Once you are a writer. If your only
(21:05):
motivation is to keep writing, and you keep writing, there's
no getting tired, there's no burnout, there's no blank page.
That's your job.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Okay, So we got so many things we can talk
about with you, we should have him on more than once. Laura,
I'm just thinking, but first, you worked for you still
work decades as a stand up comic, and you've also
written what we're up to about six books now. But
first let's start at the beginning. How did this idea,
(21:39):
this dream of being a stand up comic? Where did
that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I was driving on I forty four with my first
wife and there was a message board in one of
the hotels that said comedy contest, first price one hundred dollars,
and she said, you seem kind of bored. Why don't
you try it, really write it?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And I won.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Not a big deal, but I won. Next week, same billboard,
same hotel, another contest, another one hundred dollars, entered that
one one again by a third week.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I'll let you just keep coming.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Well after they stopped doing that after a while, so
I went to the comedy club and started working on
an act because I had open mic nights, amateur nights,
no talent night, whatever you wanted to call it. And
I went and started coming every week writing material, trying
to do it, and about maybe three four months later,
a comedian who I met that week said, you want
(22:35):
to open for me and Rapid Soup Fall South Dakota.
So I had my first gig in Soup Fall South Dakota.
Did a bunch of one nighters in Kansas and Missouri
and Iowa for a year or two or three that
I auditioned for a club in Las Vegas and I
got into the club that catchurizing started Bally's, and then
I started working at Balle's every four or five weeks,
(22:58):
and then that led to another gig to another gig,
and by the nineties I was on this level anyway,
probably appearing in Vegas more than anybody else, because there's
three or four hotels that I was working.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I think you were at the Excelsior when I saw you. No,
not the ex Caliber, that's what.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, yeah, I was. That was one of the hotels,
and Bally's was in the MGM and the Riviera and
the old Maximum Hotel and dunes and a little bit
of the tropicanas. So that's how it all started, and
then from that we got into You to NSK. But
that's where the writing came from. The more you write,
that's where the first book came from, just writing about
the list the previous twenty years of the first twenty
(23:38):
years being a comedian.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, well, I mean you already were a writer because
you're writing this material, right, you're not writing books. But anyway,
go ahead, Lara.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
I just I'm jealous that you got to see him
when he was in Vegas. I think that sounds like
a blast.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I think I even appeared in one of Bill's early books,
don't I.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Oh yeah, at least one, yeah, probably one of the Yeah,
it's in one of the Susan Pulaski books, because they're
SI in Vegas. And so she goes to see a
show and it's you.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's right, Or she couldn't go because somebody was shot
and killed.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Oh well, that's worse, but she was headed to one
way or another. You're in the book. Oh okay. So
as a result of course, everybody expects everything you write
to be funny, and some of it is and some
of it isn't explain that to us.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, what's that great line about the difference between the
comedy is or drama is comedy plus time? I think
I heard that somewhere from somebody, and.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
That's what I would have thought. Comedy is tragedy plus time.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I knew i'd miss it up. That's it. There's time
in their distance and something to do with each other.
So what happened was after the Road Cooma came out,
and the one after.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
The follow that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I think the third fourth book was about my son
who died, as you know, of drugs, and I thought, well,
if I was a if I had any real skill, I
would build him something or plan something or do something
like that. But I didn't, and I thought, let me
see if I can write a story about his life,
particularly specifically the last four days five days right after
(25:35):
he died. And I wanted to see if I could
actually write that. And there's some funny things in that,
but obviously it's the aftermath of his death, and I
wanted to see if I could actually tell a story
about what it's like to experience the aftermath of somebody's
death who shouldn't die. Twenty four year olds are not
supposed to die, and you were nice enough to publish it.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
So at that point I realized.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Well, I can actually do this. I mean I can
do this because you can do it because you're looking
at It's one of the things about being a writer.
You know, the difference between writers who were publishing writers
who aren't published is that somebody has published, and then
your whole perception changes of yourself. You know, a writer,
you look on the shelf, there I am, and that
changes how you write. That changes how you think about
(26:21):
yourself as a writer, and the changes the perception of
people when they know, oh, you're a writer. You write comedy,
and you write about your son, you write politics, you
write geology, whatever it is, and then the ball starts rolling.
Terrible cliche there, but it does happen that you then
start becoming this thing called the writer.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Ye you want to.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Put turn on on low because it's very pretentious, but
there is something to that. And you both know this
that you know when you write, when you sit down
and you do it, you realize there's a thing to
doing it. It's not just impulse and it's not just
the light from above that hits you. There is an
actual thing to doing it, and you have to honor
(27:02):
that thing about doing it. Whatever you're writing and wanting
to be a writer is kind of easy. Calling yourself
a writer is kind of easy, but actually doing it.
So the more you do it, the more I felt.
The more I did it, the more I felt like
I could actually call myself a writer. Interesting about that
was I knew a guy who was a toll take
toll taker back when they had toll takers.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I think, I know the guy you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Go ahead, and I remember thinking, I can't wake up
tomorrow morning and call myself a toll taker, because you
got to get trained, you got to get hired, you
got to get placed. But he could wake up and
call himself a writer the next day. I thought that
was tremendously unfair. You were just allowed to do that, right.
(27:50):
At some point, I thought, you need to treat it seriously,
and you need to however you need however that seriousness
becomes your life.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You didn't ask any of this, sorry, but that's how
that's really how it happens. You know Bill Martin, right,
that great story about when he came and we're at
the same conference and he told the writers that you
you get up every morning and you go to your workspace.
But before you go to workspace, you have breakfast, you
get dressed, you put on shoes, and you go to work.
(28:25):
I remember thinking, shoes. Nobody wears shoes. That's the whole
point being a writer. You don't have to wear shoes,
but he's dress that helps you take this seriously. You're
going somewhere to do this thing that you want to do,
that you love doing, that you think is important. So
if you don't know how to get started as a writer,
(28:45):
I would just tell you to put shoes.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
On, yeah, the most important, and then maybe write something. Yeah.
I don't, you know, I don't for that matter. I
never put on shoes. But I know people who are
very successful, but they still like take the train downtown
and go to their office and were and I think
I do that in my recliner every day. But it
works better for them if they like you're saying, if
(29:10):
you don't like a job, Okay, speaking of jobs, you
have just released this book Covering Over My Head, it's
the second book in your ongoing series of hilarious and
warm and witty tributes to your father, featuring a word
in the title that we can't say without getting banned
(29:30):
by the podcast police, but anyway you can probably figure
it out. It's Jack Blank two, which is appropriate. It's
an appropriate title for this book right.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Right, because the whole Jack series is about the last
twenty years of my father's life. And as you know,
and you coined the phrase, it will be the only
four part trilogy in the history publishing that The the
first section, the first segment was his years in Las Vegas.
(30:04):
The second segment, over your shoulder, is the years in
Tulsa before he went to the Tulsa Jewish Community retirement center,
which he calls the Hebrew Home. Be Part three that's
coming out this year, and then Part four will be
the last year of his life. I could not figure
(30:24):
out a way to join that with Part three, so
chapter four is just going to be the actual last
year of his life. And the thing about the book,
this serious part of the book is even from the beginning,
you know this man is going to die. There's no
and the problem or the obstacle was is that important,
(30:47):
and I found it really wasn't as important as those
last twenty years of his life. And it hit me
that the last twenty years of his life wasn't about
waiting to die. It literally was about going to buffets
and gambling and going to the bagel place. That really
what mattered were the moments, and those moments involved him
(31:09):
usually winning the conversation, usually having an insight, which now
seems a lot more profound than it was then. Just
a quick example about that he was doing. He was
an accountant and did accounting long after he should have stopped,
and at one point he was doing he was ninety
three at the time. He's doing an eighty five year
(31:31):
old Yugoslavian doctor's tax return who was also a landlord
in New York. These tax returns can be like twenty
pages long. My father had seven items filled out on
the seven lines of twenty pages. I said to my father,
the irs is going to audit Peter. You cannot send
him this tax return. And my father said, so they
(31:52):
don't like it, they'll send him a letter. That's your
quality control, all right. So what's funny about that? Was
I do that bit on stage and somebody comes up
to me an actual CPA and says, I got to
tell you some because I enjoyed that joke as much
as anybody. But that's exactly what the irs is gonna do.
They're not gonna send somebody out, they're not gonna arrest them.
(32:14):
They're gonna send him a letter. And I thought that's brilliant.
And it hit me that my father, in all these
comments and all these stories and all these absurdities and
these these weird connections he was making, was never entirely
wrong m hmm. And while it was going on, it
played for laughs. It was funny. It was my father's world.
(32:36):
The rest were just we're just visiting. But that's what
hit me ever since he died, that how close he
was to the truth and the insights all along. And
I thought I had captured most of those moments and
understood most of those moments, but even I missed it.
And the whole book, with the whole series, is about
not missing moments because you know he's not going to
be here soon. I don't know what soon meant, but
(33:00):
even then I missed it, and that's what hit me.
And that's what I did that Ted talk was that
The idea was to capture the person and not my
grief about the person dying trying to do that. Look
about Paul as well, The important thing was him, not me.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Well, that's what I love about these books. It's such
a it's a topical issue, it's weighty subject matter, and
yet they're delightful to read and very informative. I mean,
we're all just getting older, that's we're all going to
face this. And look how he continued to live to
(33:39):
the very end. He was he was enjoying himself and
making the most out of every day. That's what I
took out of the books, and I love it and
tell it so well.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
That's that's really what The last thing he said to me,
the last words he said to me, he was he
was in the hospital. He was aspirating, so he couldn't
have any walk her. He was you know, but if
he had any water, he drowned to death. This way,
he was just going to suffocate it. It's a terrible
way to die, but it was only a two days worth.
And I said, look at I cannot get you any water.
(34:10):
I couldn't explain to him, but I cannot get you
any water. He goes, what good do you get the
hell out of here? I said, you're throwing me. He said, yeah,
get out. I said, let me let me get the nurse.
Maybe she'll be able to get something for you cold wash, Gregg,
maybe you can bite into it or something. And he said,
she's not going to do anything. She's a Republican.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Was a joke.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Runs from the family.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
I understand that there's actually going to be four books.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Four books, Yes, four books, so.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
We're going to have the four book trilogy. So, just
like one of my favorite authors, Douglas Adams his Hitchhiker's
Hide to the Galaxy, it's a four book trilogy following
excellent footsteps.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Yeah, or five maybe. I seem to remember Adam saying
that the this is the fifth volume in the increasingly
inaccurately named trilogy something like that.
Speaker 5 (35:07):
I'm not sure that one was. I'm not sure it
was finished before.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
This one.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Doorish it. And again, Bill, thank you for letting me
do the fourth one because the third one could not
fit everything I wanted to put.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
In that well, it's better break it up than have
some huge, long thing. That's you know, that's part of
growing up at the moment when we realized that our
parents aren't quite as clueless as we thought they were
when we were younger. My dad, who passed a couple
of years ago, maybe the only person on earth who
(35:40):
actually benefited from an irs at audit. I mean, I
don't know why they came out, but they spent like
a month at our house messing around with the receipts
and finally not only did not find anything wrong, but
found a couple of deductions he'd missed. Hed he benefited
about fifteen thousand bucks as a result of ignat it.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
That's one of them.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
The other thing is that you probably got from your
father and mother obviously, but your father, is that at
some point, like in my father's case, that him being
my father wasn't as important as him being Jack Friedman.
That these people actually had lives before they had any
connection to you, before you were tethered to them. He
(36:26):
was Jack Friedman, and in his mind, there's a good
part of him that was always Jack Freedman, not Barry's
dad or Florence's husband, And that was something that it
took me a while to realize that's who I'm dealing with.
Here because at some point the parent child thing gets
discombobulated and you realize, I'm talking to a grown man
(36:47):
who's ninety three, who knows more than I think he does,
but can also understand that things are not working as
well as they used to.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah. Yeah. In addition to this book, you've also got
a newsletter, Yeah, distributed through substack, which is doing really well.
It's a sort of a blend of humor and politics
and sometimes other things.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Tell us about that again, it's it started out as
a political blog, and then it morphed into some comedy
and some weekly features like a Friday list where I
just have the ten craziest things that happened that week.
And also lately I have been featuring an author every
(37:31):
day with a quote from his or her work, and
I'm up to about ninety seven authors now. Started a
couple of years ago, and like last week, I did Momonodes.
Next week I'm going to do I think Tennessee Williams,
and then there's Gordoma, and then there's I mean, obviously
Joseph Heller have done and Philip Roth, Nolan Mayler, and
(37:53):
I try to find authors either that I have read
more likely should have read I should know their work,
and I actually just featured their work from five or
six of their books every week. That starts off the
week every morning. Then on Mondays I do a story
of something that happened in the news, and depth Wednesday
(38:15):
I do a sort of a fake headline list called
heads or Tails t a l e. S. Thursday I
do something with Thursday I do something with Charlie Peers
at Esquire. I submit something and he publishes it. And
Friday do my Friday List. And every other week I
do a political column that I wrote for publication called
(38:36):
Progressive Populist. So it seems to be working pretty well.
But again, as we talked earlier, that's pretty much it.
There were weeks I don't have a lot to say,
and I realized, wait a minute, people are paying money
now to hear you, to read you, so you can't
be motivated to sit down and write them something.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
At this job.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
This is what you wanted to do, and you can
do it, and you can't sit down to do it.
You can never complain about anything again. And it takes
me about, you know, ten minutes to get down there.
And interestingly, I hadn't really tracked this. Every time I
decide to post something, when I don't really feel like
posting something, I will invariably pick up a subscriber or too.
(39:21):
I don't think you see that's why you picked the
subscriber up. But he or she read something that they liked.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
And so yeah, yeah, a big success. Though. Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
After living for decades in Tulsa, I hear you're contemplating
a move overseas.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Contemplation about that?
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Is that? Is that fair to share with the world.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, I'm going next month. I am moving to Portugal
University down there. And the adventure of it hit me
and Melissa, my wife, back in March. That had no
to do with politics, or very little to do with politics,
and we started the process and they have a really
attractive retirement visa which I could get and it was
(40:13):
all approved back in December last month and February fifteenth,
I go, and we'll see how it works.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Good thing.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You can still stay connected with people. But I'm going
to try and do it over there. Politics, you know,
since the election, has something to do with it, but
mostly it's just this window in my life. I guess
we all have these windows where you think I got
to do this now, because I wasn't going to do
it when my father was alive. I wasn't going to
leave Tulsoll he was here. I couldn't see having the
(40:43):
strength or inclination to do it when I was seventy
five or eighty. This just seems to be the moment
to do it. So we're going to try it. And
it may be a really stupid decision, but at least
we won't regret it.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
You won't spend the rest of your life saying darn,
we said gone to Portugal, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
But I don't think I'm going to spend the rest
of my life thinking damn, I should have stayed in Tulson.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
You can always come back, right, It can always come back.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
That's exactly right, can always come back.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
But there is one very important thing we've not discussed yet,
and that, of course, would be your geology writing.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, I've been writing.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Everybody listening right now is saying, what what's geology writing?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
A dear friend of mine thirty thirty five years ago
was the editor of the American Association of Petroleum Geologist
Explore magazine, and he thought I could write, and he
started giving me some features to write. And these associations
pretty much exist to give old white guys awards. That's
really why they have any reason to live. And they
(41:52):
all get awarded something and then there's features written about them.
Well I can do those, and I do other stories
that have involved too much scientific jargon. And you know,
really thank God for cutting paste, because I'm not sure
how I would lest otherwise. And you put this story
together and you understand what's allowable what's not. And it's
(42:18):
formulaic writing. But what I like about it is you
ever find either one of you when you write about
something you don't really care about viscerally, you find yourself
writing some of your best work. Does it ever hit you,
just the objectivity of it, that you're here and it's there.
(42:39):
Somehow your writing becomes more focused, certainly less self conscious,
and just you tackle the issues surprisingly even to yourself.
I mean, I've written some articles then I haven't thought
anything of I mean, the editor will call and say
I how to change your lead to go?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I mean, I really don't care. You do good, junt,
contentious job. But you know, if they don't like the
lead about these rocks, change the lead. But when people
have written I've written about will write me and say,
nobody's ever written that about when, or no one ever
dealt with that topic really, So it is kind of
(43:19):
a nice exercise for me to sit down and write
about something I don't really really care about. And I
guess the other reason, let's be frank about this is
that it pays a lot of the bills.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
That's always helpful too.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
You know, you do this writing so you can do
the writing you want. But do I know anything about geology.
I know that when you have dirt you put water on,
it becomes mud. That's pretty much what I know about you.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Some of this is oil and gas related. I'm guessing
it's all oil and gas related, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
So I get to write about, you know, carbon capture,
and I get to write about geologic plays, and I
get to write about the Gulf of Mexico and try
and stay away from politics, which is impossible when it
comes to oil and gas exploration. But it's one of
these gigs that I've been known for a long time,
and every month he calls and says, do you have
(44:12):
any room on your plate for these articles? And I
have plenty of room on my plate to make money
as a writer, So I write them, and I always
write the geologist an email. I could talk to them,
but I would be lost if they talk back to me.
So if I send them a list of questions, they
answered me in the email, and then I have two
(44:34):
screens opening and I can actually move their words back
and forth. So yeah, it's one of those gigs that
I fell into, and I am amazed as anybody's still
knowing of.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
See, this reminds me of the writing I used to
do when I was practicing law, you know, and you're
having to write briefs and all that kind of stuff
every day. And not only do I not think that
was my best work, I kind of tremble at the
thought that someday I become so famous that some researcher
digs all that garbage up. Let it lie, guys.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Well, the one time I actually tried to insert something
in one of these articles, they were doing a story
about offshore drilling, California offshore drilling, and I remember reading
that Joan Didion once had a quote that the quote
was that one gets the feeling when one moved to
California the things had better work out there because there
(45:30):
we run out of continent. It was a great lead
for offshore drilling.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
We run out of continent.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
So I write that in. I actually weaved it in.
I thought it was a great lead to the story.
And when the story came out they dropped the whole
Joan Didion reference, even though her father was a jology apparently,
And I said, why would you drop it? It was
actually made sense, gave some color to this otherwise dry story.
And the editor said, because the higher ups had no
(45:58):
idea who she was.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
So there you go, There you go, Laura, I've been
totally hogging this interview. What's the one question you've always
wanted to ask? Barry?
Speaker 5 (46:12):
What does your writing process look like? You talked about
treating it like a job, and we absolutely are on
the same page that that's how the writing gets done.
And I think when I hear from people that are
stalled out, they don't they expect. They like the idea
(46:34):
of being a writer, but not actually sitting down and writing.
So what is your process like from day to day?
Obviously it's probably different when you're writing a geology article
or working on one of your books, but how do
you keep yourself moving forward on that.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Just a quick story. My daughter asked me one time,
she said, when you write, do you ever just write
just to write therapeutically or just to get through a moment?
And I said no, and she said, you'd be surprised
how many people write for just that very reason. Shaid,
everything you write has somewhere to go, and that changes how.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
You look at your writing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
You know, you actually say to yourself, I have to
get this to them. I have a deadline, and so
that is essentially what motivates me. And the other is
just simply if you look at your output. Now, Bill,
you have how many hundreds of books? You have sixty
books out?
Speaker 4 (47:35):
I think we're at sixty five published.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
You have ten seven seven.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Well, eighth manuscript is with my agent right now, being shocked.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Okay, now, both of you, if you decided you were
going to write just when you were motivated, just when
you felt like the light from above came to you,
I would say to you, you could do that. Look
at your output. However you've been doing this, this works
for you. I used to joke that if Bob Dylan
wrote mister Tambourine Man on Monday, he could take the
(48:06):
rest of the week off, you're done, done to work
for the week. So I think people if they don't
know whether they should sit down nine to five and
write or wait for that kind of strange impulse. That's
strange encouragement to look at your output and see what
you're writing and if you're writing and publishing or doing
the work and you're waiting for that impulse, and keep
(48:27):
doing that. But if your if your input output is
not there, excuse me. If your output is not there,
then sit down and make a schedule and treat it
like a job. So in my case, mostly I write
because I have things that need to be done, even
though it's a lot of it's my own deadlines. I
don't really write a certain amount every day unless I
(48:49):
have to, And invariably, when I will write something, it
will take much longer than I wanted to write, but
at least I know where it's going. So I have
a column coming out tomorrow which shouldn't have taken me
six hours, but it has because I can, and it's
not due till tomorrow, and it's mine and I want
it to be what it is. So I don't know
if that answers your question, but really depends on what
(49:10):
you want to do. If you're writing your first novel
and it's not working, or you're not having any time
to write because you're waiting to sit down for when
you feel like writing, then get up at five o'clock
in the morning before you go to work and write.
Speaker 5 (49:25):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
If it's not a board of you, then it's not
I mean, nobody's waiting for your book. But if you
really want to get that book done, you know, find
the time to do it. If you can't find the
time to do it, then you make the time to
do it.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Luckily.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
I like that. I've had people tell me that they
they can't follow this schedule or that schedule. My advice
is find the schedule that does work for you and
then stick to it.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
And when you think about how much time people spend
watching TV and being on Facebook or doing whatever, there's
probably an hour or two during the day where they're
doing other things besides writing, and by all means do it.
But if you want to write a novel, you're probably
gonna need that time. It's like reading, you know, It's like,
(50:13):
how do you read a book anymore? With there's so
many distractions. And I've decided there's a formula. So you
read two chapters, then you go check your email, you
get to then you get to read a chapter, and
then you can check Facebook. You cannot spend all your
time on social media or talking about writing and not
(50:34):
actually sitting down and doing it.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
Yeah, all right, Berry. One last question, what can we
look forward to seeing from you from the other side
of the Atlantic Ocean in the future.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Well, I'm actually thinking it's a great question. I'm actually
thinking that it would be too cliche to write my
first year in Portugal.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
No, I would think a lot of people have done
more with less, And I bet you would be a
sensational travel writer.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
Yeah so, I think Mark.
Speaker 4 (51:05):
Twain was a humorist. His biggest hits, though, were his
travel books best sellers.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, so I think I'm going to do think about that. Uh.
I guess the political angle with that would be I
actually got out. I mean, there are people who do
want to leave the country, and a lot of it
is just that first impulse I hated here, I'm leaving.
But there's a whole process you got to go through.
Even though my process went pretty smoothly. It's it's it's
(51:32):
a it's a deal, it's a thing. So I think
that would be my first thought about Portugal. It's just
I'm here, my life is there. I know nobody in Portugal, nobody,
which means there's going to be nobody who knows me,
which means there's no restaurant, there's no table, there's no
(51:52):
special sandwich, nothing. And I think that could be an
interesting story about how you actually make it in a
foreign land. Or that's somewhat of a cliche, but I
think that's what I'm hoping for if I ever get
rid of the jack.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Sounds so good to me. Hey, if you're leaving, can
I have your table at the Babel bagel shop because
we get.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
We'll get it remade for it. Yea, for sure for
Barish people or Burry.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Here you Bury in company. Yeah, Barry, thanks for being
another podcast again. We really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
It, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Enjoyed it as always.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Let's see you both, bye bye.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Now by.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Just a couple of parting words, I'm going to remind
you again that we've got the writer con Cruise coming
up in just a few months at the end of May.
I think, isn't it Laara April? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And
and you can read all about it at the website.
That's writercon dot com slash cruise, but it's an Alaskan
(53:03):
cruise leaving out of Seattle, and I think this is
going to be a blast. Plus when the boat's not in,
you know, in a port somewhere, we're going to do stuff.
We're going to be holding The writing classes will have
more than twenty hours of writing instruction. That's big group,
that's medium sized, that's very small, critique groups. Whatever you
(53:26):
are looking for, that's what we're going to provide because
we keep the group small so we can very much
tailor the presentation to the people who are there. Right
go to the website. If you have any questions, email me.
You know it is, you know, more complicated than I wish.
You got to pay for the course and then you've
(53:47):
got to call the cruise line and book your room.
But that's the only way we could do it. Use
the code that we provide on the website. Tell them
it's your part of writer Con. But uh, there is
you know, there are so many room choices. That's if
we did it, we'd have to give everybody the same room,
(54:09):
and everybody doesn't want the same room. Some people want
single double, some people want a balcony. Some people don't care.
So go to the website. If you have any questions,
email me W I. L L B E. R N
at gmail dot com. Would love to hear from you,
and I would especially love to have you on this
cruise because we're not only going to talk shop all out,
(54:30):
we're gonna have a great time. Let me also remind
you that writer Con has its own newsletter and magazine,
and man, you don't want to miss out on that
because they are both fabulous and the newsletter is completely free.
So go to substack, search for writer Con and join today.
All right, until next time, keep writing and remember you
(54:56):
cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you next
time
Speaker 2 (55:02):
And
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