May 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Mark Stevens, author of several crime novels, including Trapline. His new novel No Lie Lasts Forever involves a reporter investigating a cold-case serial killer who may have returned.
00.00 Opening Thoughts
Jesse has returned from Ireland with a new appreciation of books—especially illuminated ones.
04:29 News
1) MIllion Lives Book Festival Disaster
2) Agatha Christie Rises to Teach Again
15:31 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers (Write Better Together) discusses the use of attachment theory when creating characters and character relationships.
21:30 Interview with Mark Stevens
42:20 Parting Words
LAST CALL for the WriterCon Cruise (May31-July 7). Seven days at sea touring Alaska—with lots of writing instruction when the boat is at sea. Over 20 hours of talks, small-group work, plus private interviews with an onbaord literary agent. Register now!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
00.00 Opening Thoughts
Jesse has returned from Ireland with a new appreciation of books—especially illuminated ones.
04:29 News
1) MIllion Lives Book Festival Disaster
2) Agatha Christie Rises to Teach Again
15:31 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers (Write Better Together) discusses the use of attachment theory when creating characters and character relationships.
21:30 Interview with Mark Stevens
42:20 Parting Words
LAST CALL for the WriterCon Cruise (May31-July 7). Seven days at sea touring Alaska—with lots of writing instruction when the boat is at sea. Over 20 hours of talks, small-group work, plus private interviews with an onbaord literary agent. Register now!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast, get.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yourself a Network. The words don't matter, the writing will come.
Get yourself in network, get yourself friends in the writing world.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
the want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thank you, Jesse l Rich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
joining us today. Everyone here at writer Con Central is
back from their travels or ready to go back to
the much more important work of being writers and podcasters
and sound engineers. Jesse, how was Ireland?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Ireland was lovely. It was like it was like the
southern Island of New Zealand, but which is a lot
more people, just like apparently we were blessed with incredibly
good weather. It sprinkled once and apparently supposed to rain
the entire time. It was like sunny and sixties and beautiful,
and everyone was very kind and sweet, and the food
(01:12):
and beer and whiskey was delicious.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Oh yeah, well yeah, Now all the posts I saw
were from Northern Ireland. Were you just there? Did you
go into the nation.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, yes, We started off in Belfast for Michelle and
I's anniversary, and then we met some friends in Dublin
and then did a couple days in Dublin, a couple
of days in Cork, and then went down to this
tiny port city to take a boat ride to the
island where they filmed all of like Luke Skywalker's intro
scenes in you know, A Force Awakens and Last Jedi,
(01:44):
and then went back to Dublin for a day and
then back to Belfast to fly out.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So you were in Dublin a lot. This is This
is a Book podcast. I got to ask, did you
see the Book of Kels.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
We did see the Book of Kells. The Book of
Kells exhibit was awesome. Also went to the Museum of
Irish Literature, which was very James Joyce heavy. Obviously they
actually had like one of the original copies that was
sent back to him of your listens. Yeah, and that
was really cool. The Book of Kels is incredible. And again,
(02:19):
as a Jewish person, I'm looking at the Book of
Kel's as just a really cool illustrated book, right pretty,
but it's it's fascinating, Like just the history of it
and everything. And by the way, for our listeners and viewers,
if you're ever in Ireland, make sure to stop by museums.
Their museums are incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So all right, especially and I'm never going to say
this again, especially the Titanic Museum in Belfast. Blown away
by this museum, it was incredible.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Okay, good to know, Laura. You just got back from
the OK Book Awards, where it looked to me that
about half of the nominees were books you edited. That
either you were slightly I.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Mean you were there. You were there as one of
the finalists, so huge congrats to you. I was, I was.
I did touch a lot of the books that were
finalists this year, which was wonderful. I was so excited
to see that come out. It doesn't it doesn't hit
the same as having one of your own books up there,
(03:26):
but I know I've been busy helping other people and
it also made for a very relaxed evening. There was
no anxiety. Fun.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
No, You're like tinkerbro You sprinkle fairy dust on other
people's books and they can fly.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I made that work so well. From Jesse. All right,
our interview today is with Mark Stevens, who is a
former reporter, pr man, and TV news producer who turned
his handwriting fiction. His award winning novel, The Fireballer was
named Best Baseball Novel in twenty twenty three, and he
(04:07):
has also written several crime and mystery novels, including Trapline,
which came out a couple of years ago and got
a lot of attention. His new novel is no Lie
Lass Forever, which involves a reporter investigating a cold case
serial killer who may have returned, but first the news
(04:44):
new story number one, the Million Lives Book Festival turns
out to be a disaster and possibly a complete scam.
You may have read this. It happened while I was
out of town, but I couldn't resist putting this on
the podcast anyway. Authors and visitors, they're about one hundred
authors and about forty visitors total, say that they are
(05:07):
out thousands of dollars after paying to attend or to
have sales exhibit tables at this Million Lives Book Festival
held in Baltimore and now go check it out. Dozens
of social media or TikTok posts videos authors saying they
were this is a quote duped into attending a low
(05:29):
quality book fair with poor attendants because there was really
nothing there except a big emptantee room. Some of you
are now probably harkening back to that fake Willy Wonka
experience I think was in the UK somewhere, or the
similar Bridgerton. Everybody shows up in costume and there's nothing
(05:49):
there here. People were told to come in black tie,
and people did. They're wearing these fancy ball gowns and
tuxes and nothing. I mean, I guess this is going
to happen, and everybody should check it out before they
show up. But I didn't expect to ever happen in
(06:10):
the book world, you know, I mean a fake book conference.
I guess it's a reminder of how important it is
to do your research and attend quality events, even if
they aren't necessarily the cheapest this one was. And look
what happened. Yeah, they lured so many people to this thing,
and you know, authors are hoping to get a little recognition,
(06:35):
maybe sell some books. Others are hoping to meet people,
and it's just a disaster that I think. Jesse's got
a video of the conference, which is basically this empty
convention center room. The TikTok videos show this undecorated room
with concrete floors and some folding tables chairs set up.
(06:56):
There was no program as such, and of course the
same page said no refunds. Not to be fair, the
one of the organizers may be backing off of that
and has sat on TikTok that they're going to try
and do refunds. But anyway, Wow, Jesse, how can people
distinguish frauds and amateurs and this was one or the other.
(07:22):
How can they distinguish that from real conferences?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I mean, I guess you just have to, like, yes,
you gotta do your research. You also have to see,
like is this new? Who's putting it on? Have they
put it on before? Because it seems like every industry
is going to have their fire their fire festival, you know,
or there. I was trying to make a James Fry
joke here, but I can't get the wording right friar festival.
(07:47):
Maybe anyway, there we go, nailed it all? Right? Uh yeah,
I mean it's gotta be careful. I mean there are
scams everywhere, and you know, we're we're onslide with spam
phone calls and tech these days and so you just
got to you gotta do your research and honestly, never
sign up for something that doesn't have a refund policy, right,
(08:09):
That's always a bad sign.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, that's yeah. Saying no refunds on the page where
you're supposed to lure people in, that is a bad sign.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
No refunds on something that's brand new, like, never a
good sign.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So, Laura, you know, and I think you agree. I
believe in writing conferences. We host one every year for
starters plause. I know many people who have gotten their
first agent or gotten their first deal at conferences or
cruises or retreats. How can people know what to do
and where to go to advance their writing careers.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
That's so difficult, especially if you're trying to give something
brand new a chance. I'm sure it did sound very enticing,
very fun. Who doesn't want to go to a black
type book event. I probably would have been showing it
to you if i'd seen it. Do you think, like
Jesse said, it's so important to check to see who's
(09:05):
behind it, who's putting it on, what kind of experience
they have. And he makes an excellent point. If there
is a no refunds on a brand new event like
nothing at all. It's so challenging, so many scams. I mean,
even when people reach out to me for potential editing,
(09:26):
they're many times apologetic. They're trying to you know, they're
asking me legitimate questions, and I come back and say,
these are smart questions. Do not apologize for being smart.
I think we don't want to feel like we're being
rude or something like that. But you do have to
you do have to protect yourself. And I'm always happy
(09:48):
to answer all of those questions because I'm not the
business of scamming anyone.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So yeah, I'm just shocked that. You know, maybe I'm
being too puritanical, but I am confident that whoever was
behind this, they aren't writers. Writers don't do this sort
of thing to one another. To me, writers are the
most generous person person people on earth. And so if
it wasn't writers, who wasn't I mean, who said, ah,
(10:17):
I know how to get people to come to an
empty conference center. This is even better than Willie Wonka.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Writers like no no refund and black tie. That's two
red flax. I'm like, I'm like black tie, Like black
tie seems indulgent.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I've seen conferences that had costume parties or dress up.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Some of us, some of us really like an excuse
to break out.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Talks too, but like for like a convention where you're
meeting people, I don't know, Like, yeah, it seemed like
it's one of those details where like what does this
have to do with the process of the thing?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
True?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, all right, all right. News story number two, which
possibly is even creepier than the first one. This is
about Agatha Christie rising from the dead to teach you
how to write.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
She lives right.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You may be familiar with programs like Masterclass here in
the United States, websites that have James Patterson Jesse's Favorite,
or Dan Brown teaching people how to write. Well, there's
a BBC similar program in the UK which is now
for the first time, offering instruction from arguably the greatest,
(11:40):
certainly the most successful mystery writer who ever lived, despite
the fact that she died decades ago. Yes, the Christie
estate has improved an AI reconstruction. I mean there's an
actual avatar you see of Agata Christie talking to you,
offering writing. Some of them are clips from past interviews
(12:03):
but the truth is she didn't give very many interviews.
She didn't go into that sort of thing. Most are
simply AI generated of I don't know what writing bits
that they're putting in. I mean, it's pretty obvious stuff
being put in Agatha Christie's AI ellipse. Here's the advertising
on the website. Go check this out. It says, in
(12:24):
a world first, the best selling novelist of all time
offers you an unparalleled opportunity to learn the secrets behind
her writing in her own words, made possible today by
Agatha's family, an expert team of academics and cutting edge
audio and visual specialists, as if she were teaching you herself.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm right here, Agatha Christie. People, come on, you want
to hear it?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Are you willing to go to advice? Yeah? Are you ready?
You're ready to go?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Listen. I'm ready for this avatar to murder someone. Then
someone had to solve it. That would be right on brand.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Do you think we could get the Christy avatar to
come to Ryder Con and maybe give it talk fascinating?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It had to be remote, yeah, like a put it
on the screen, holographic projectory type type thing.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Could be a first it could be, and then our
competitors will imitate it the next year, So maybe it's
not worth doing. Laura, would you be willing to give
this kind of instruction a try?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
While I do think it's very important to keep learning
and be open to anything that helps you learn. I
don't know. Is there it's remote?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Isn't it?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Is there a trip to England involved that?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Nothing? So I think it's just staring at your computer screen.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I think I would want to know who was actually
feeding the information into the avatar before I did.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
If they had an AI engine and they fed it
all eighty or whatever it is of her novels, maybe
it could deduce a few things. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
It's it's weird that's not using like information she publicly
gave other than her books, right, She didn't give a
lot of interviews, so like, how how is she gonna
like characters in her books aren't able to tell you
how to write?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Is going to say the little gray cells? Yeah, write
your book.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I mean listen, it'll tell you probably tell you how
to commit a murder and get away with it, right
or fail.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It's always the least likely suspect.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That's right, you've met them early, but they were very
not not interesting. But you have to you have to
meet them early.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
I know that at least so you forgot about it, right.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Wow, the world just keeps getting weirder.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I want I want to put this on record right
now when James Parrison does this, and he will and
he will no one buy it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
He's already doing recorded interviews by but I guess this
would be even less work than that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Just yeah, oh yeah. Also, in one of the many
airports I was in on my way from Ireland back,
I saw a James Parrison Michael Crichton book and I
was like, shame on you, Michael Crane.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Well he is Also he's also gone, did they find
an unfinished manuscript.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Or something I need to look at that?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I was just like, wait, report back to us.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, all right, I'll.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Craft corner this time. In this episode, we're launching a
fabulous and I mean that new series from John Myers
about very various situation issues that come up for everybody
who attempts to write fiction. This time, he's going to
be talking about character development and specifically this really fascinating
(15:49):
idea of using relationship theory to create your characters with
more depth and more relatability. So take it away, John.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Craft Corner.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Welcome everybody to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm John Myers.
I'm half of Write Better Together. My business partner, Emily
Brooks and her husband are expecting a child and she's
taken time off for a little while, so I'm flying
solo here speaking of mothers and children today, I want
to talk to you about using attachment theory when you
(16:24):
developed your characters. Now, if you don't know what attachment
theory is, seventy years ago, they started an experiment by
putting a bunch of babies in a room with their mother.
After they were all calm and everything was good, they
removed a mother for a period of time, and then
they returned the mother afterwards. About half of the babies
took the mother back and were welcoming and we're pleased.
(16:47):
So those babies were determined to have a secure attachment style.
About twenty percent of the babies had what you would
call an anxious attachment style, and they were nervous while
the mother was gone and were reticent to accept the
mother back, but then eventually did. A third group of
babies were aloof and distant and aggravated when the mom
(17:12):
came back and ignored the mom and those babies were
deemed avoidant. Now some of these have different names, So
if you're familiar with attachment theory, it's evolved over the
last seventy years. The breakdown that I just gave you
was fifty percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious.
Well at least ten percent, doesn't it so In the nineties,
(17:34):
subsequent researchers classified those as disorganized or fearful avoidance. So
how does this affect you and your characters? Secure adults
tend to have healthy, trusting, and supportive relationships. Anxious adults
also called preoccupied, often crave intimacy and may struggle with
feelings of insecurity and fear of abandonment. Dismissive called avoidant,
(17:57):
are likely to avoid emotional closeness and may prioritize independence
over intimate relationships. Then the last one that disorganized a
fearful avoidant. They have a fear of getting too close.
Those are the least amount of people ten percent. Interestingly enough,
when they take surveys nowadays the percentages are about the same.
It was fifty three percent secure. One survey had fifty
(18:19):
eight percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious, then
ten percent disorganized fearfull avoidance. Now that you understand it,
I'm going to give you a practical application of how
to use it in your stories. Whether you're writing scenes
for screenplay or passages for a book. You want believable
tension and you want conflict. So if you have a
(18:40):
bunch of secure attachment characters in the same scene over
and over and over, how exciting is that going to be.
To the contrary, you can't have all the disorganized fearfull
avoidance because no one would want to read that book,
right if every character is despicable. These are the cheaters
who can't keep their commitment. They're getting married on Saturday,
(19:00):
but they have one last fling on Friday night. Those
are the disorganized attachment people. I try to think of
some examples from books to give you, but I'm gonna
have to use some movies as well. Trying to find
an example of secure adults in literature, that's a hard one, man.
All I could think of is Gomez and Rtitia Adams.
(19:21):
They have a loving relationship. They support each other no
matter what They speak positivity into Wednesday their daughter. They
might be a little bit over the top, but they
are definitely secure in their relationship. Anxious types. That one's easy.
So you have Ross from friends, you have Donkey and Shrek.
When you pair two of them together, you have Gats
(19:43):
being Daisy, both anxious types. However, even though Tom and
Daisy have problems, Tom is an example of a secure
attachment person, so that relationship is the more stable of
the two. As far as avoidance, early Harry Potter, he
goes to school, he doesn't want him to mesh with
the other student. That's a great example. Elsa and Frozen.
(20:06):
She's separated from her sister emotionally and physically, and they
don't want to get close to each other. Now, the
last one, the disorganized and fearful avoidant, just can't make
a commitment. If you watch the session, Shiv is that embodied.
She can't commit to anything. You can't have a story
(20:27):
with too many shives. So I'm in the middle of
adapting a sitcom into a novel. It'll be out in
time for writer Coon in September. It's really been eye
opening up when I've tried to apply these attachment theories
because you want the characters to push the plot forward.
But you can interchange some of the characters in some
of those plots to make the conflict bigger, or to
(20:49):
make the conflict more challenging. Just like the example I
gave with gatspying Daisy, if you put two anxious people
in the same scene in a screenplayer pass sit in
a book, it's going to be a different dynamic if
one of them is a peacemaker and has a secure
relationship attachment. Finally, I want to challenge you. Take your
work in progress and see if you can apply these
(21:12):
attachment theories to your characters. Then put your results down
in the comments underneath the episode, and thank you William,
Laura and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Thank you so much. John Meyer. Now let's talk to
Mark Stevens. Mark Stevens, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Thanks Emelie for having me, appreciate.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It, Thank you for coming. All right, traditional first question,
if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
would it be.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Get yourself a network. The words don't matter, the writing
will come. Get yourself a network. Get yourself friends in
the writing world, if they're fellow aspiring writers, if they're
anybody you can find who's a published writer. Chances are
they're going to help and give you help and introduce
you to people and make contacts and encourage you and
(22:10):
read your stuff when it's raw, read your stuff when
it's better, and read your stuff when it keeps getting better,
and be your cheerleader and hold you accountable for producing
some copy and encourage you to keep writing. There's plenty
of writing advice out there about the nuts and bolts
and making scenes or making great cliffhanger endings, whatever it
(22:33):
might be. But build your network, build it early.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's great advice. Well, of course I love that, because
that's what writer con is kind of all about me
meet up with some like minded people and help one
another and it usually works. Now, you had several careers
before you turn to writing. I think you were in
public relations and you're a reporter. You were in TV
news producing, right. Did you enjoy all that or and
(23:04):
have you left it behind now or.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah? Well, I've had the luckiest career. From about sixth
grade on, I knew I wanted to be a reporter.
I thought there was something, you know, just so interesting
and kind of just I don't think I thought it
was romantic at the time, but I loved the idea
of traveling and going to see things and learning about
the world. And my mother would bring home the Boston
(23:28):
Evening Globe. Of course, this is a long time ago,
because there was an evening paper, but I was in
the sixth grade and I'd take it to the couch
and go read the evening paper. In sixth grade and
just always wanted to be a reporter. I worked from
my high school newspaper, I worked for my college newspaper.
I was a full time journalist a couple of days
after I graduated, and yeah, I just thought it would
(23:50):
be a reporter forever. I spent the first twenty years
in journalism, oh yeah, and four different organizations, including working
for National News organization public broadcasting but still National News.
And then I switched over, much to my surprise, into
school public relations. I was shocked by that switch, but
(24:14):
I really had a great career both in journalism one
side of the fence throwing angernades on the other side
of the fence catching a grenades as a public relations
person trying to keep them from not exploding. But yeah,
so no, I'm still do a little bit of pr
and still actually do a little bit of journalism too.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But somehow along the way you turned your hand to
writing fiction. How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It happened in nineteen eighty three. Gulp, I shouldn't even
say that out loud. Yeah. Always been a reader of
books as a kid. My parents were both librarians. If
you can imagine growing up in such a wonderful as
old as that, I was the middle boy. I caught
the reading bug, but never really thought I could write
(25:06):
anything until somebody handed me a mystery. I didn't really
know mysteries or crime fiction or anything like that until
somebody handed me a Patricia Heismith novel in nineteen eighty three,
and I started devouring crime fiction, and I thought, I
think I could try this, at least take a stab
at it. It's a much longer story than that, but
(25:28):
it took another twenty three years to get published, but
that's not averaging. Yep, I did get published, and yepantastic.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, and I want to talk about all that crime
fiction for sure, and your new novel that's hovering over
my shoulder right now. But I just have to say,
you wrote an absolutely acclaimed baseball novel, right how'd that
come about?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, that came about the same guy who lured me
over from the world of journalism to school district public relations.
He was superintendent at them for public schools in the
mid nineteen nineties, and he offered me a chance to
come work with him. Smart, thoughtful, even keel guy, not showy,
not boisterous, not an egomaniac, just the opposite of all that.
(26:18):
But he ran this huge organization. I really respected the
heck out of him, went to work for him. We
became friends. In fact, the reason we became friends is
because he spotted me reading a mystery novel one time
outside of a board meeting. They were in a closed session,
executive session, and I had hours to kill. This is
pre internet, and I was reading a mystery novel and
(26:40):
he came over since I loved that book, and we
became friends. He hired me over. We were friends from
the mid nineteen nineties on, and when we were having
lunch one day out in the parking in Burrito, he
casually said, you should write a book about a novel
about a pitcher who ruins the game of baseball. And
I casually said, what do you mean? And he said,
(27:03):
you know, imagine a pitcher who throws the baseball so
fast that there's no time left to swing, which, at
the top speed of pitching today, it's just incredible feat
that a batter even manages to get a bat on
a ball, because it's such a hard, hard thing to do,
and if you just up that speed level a little bit,
there's literally no time for the bat to come around,
(27:26):
so it would be an existential threat to the game.
And I went home that night and I kind of
liked it, but I can't say I loved it. But
then another part of the book just kind of came
to me, and I called him back the next day
and bounced that idea off him. He loved that second
half of the idea, and then I called my agent.
My agent said, stop everything and write that book. Oh sweet, Yeah,
(27:52):
good agent who actually had experience in the minor league
system with the New York Yankees as a chief operating
officer for the Staten Island Yankees. Baseball love baseball, and
he liked the book as well and managed to get
it sold.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Yeah, so your latest book is titled No Light Lasts Forever.
Tell us about that one.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, the idea is basically two characters of protagonist and antagonist.
Maybe a start with the antagonist because it's a little
bit unusual. It's a retired serial killer, a guy who
has committed his murders. He has stopped for fifteen years.
He's gone off to reform himself kind of sort of
(28:42):
and join the civilized world and kind of disappear into
the urban landscape, so to speak, as just another guy.
And he wants to go down in history as somebody
who was successful, like many serial killers out there who
become infamous and have drinks after them and things like that.
(29:03):
In the other corner is a TV reporter, a female
TV reporter who's a veteran. She's been around. She thinks
she's graduated from covering crime fiction to going on to
cover meteor topics like the environment, things like that, and
one day she gets drawn into a hostage taking situation
on live TV. He does a few things that are
(29:24):
out of what the cops are asking her to do.
The tragedy happens, she gets suspended from her station and
she is on the outs from her TV station, and
right then brand new serial killer case emerges. Our retired
serial killer knows he did not do it, so he
(29:46):
needs help clearing his name and making sure that this
new victim is not attached to his legacy, and he
certainly doesn't want the cops re energized around investigating the
whole thing. So he contacts her, and of course, at
first she's like, you know, he thinks he needs help,
and he's going to ask her to help her figure
out who did this latest one. Of course, she is like,
(30:08):
no way, no, how are you the guy? I don't
believe you through these encrypted messages that are coming through.
So he figures out a pretty bold way to prove
to her that it's him, And once he is convinced
her that he's the real deal, it's kind of off
to the races, and you know, she he is feeding
her information, but she also is trying to figure out
(30:30):
who he is right now.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
It's a terrific premise. I start. I will have to
admit I didn't finish, but I got well into it
when I got my advanced copy and it was just
absolutely rivetting and full of surprises, plot twists. How do
you come up with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, for me, it's all organic. I have no idea
where it's going.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
That's just what the listeners want to hear is well,
go to the store and I pay a twenty dollars
fee every month. But that's how it works right now.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
It's just you know, just thinking of all the possibilities
in every given situation, and if the current, you know,
and plot environment is rich enough, you should have some options.
And it's always better to turn up the heat a
little bit than to cool it down. It's always better
to think of what is the worst thing that could
happen right now for either character, and what is the
(31:29):
last thing they want to have happened, and consider that
as a possibility in every every moment.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, So with all those plot twists and all of
the turns going on in your book, how do you
start your project? I mean, you said you're kind of
it comes very organically to you. Are you saying that
you're a pantser versus a planner? I mean, do you
start with an outline or how do you approach a
new project?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah? If I don't know what the word outline even means,
I have, you know, I could guess I could look
it up, and I I'm just mystified by people. Outline.
I think there's it must be some alien creatures from
a distant dark planet who know how to do that.
I am baffled by that whole notion, and I kind
(32:20):
of respect it. But for me, if I were to
have outlined, I would have in my mind entertained myself
all the way to the end of the book, and
I wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be motivated to
write it anymore, because I would know me, I write
to kind of entertain myself and to see where it's going.
So and people ask me if you ever write out
a sequence, And even those people are just I think
(32:41):
they're crazy and need to be put away, because there's
just impossible for me to imagine any other way than
starting with a beginning the beginning might change, but then
following that along and at least developing a draft. But
people who can write, like, oh, I thought of a
middle scene, or I thought of the ending, so I
wrote the ending first. I'm I'm I don't know what
(33:02):
school they went to.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I'm with you on that I've had. I've had that
question asked of me at conferences and such, and I
I can't think of any time that I ever stopped
where I was at and went to write another scene
down the line, thinking I'll use this later, but now
the story kind of develops in my mind. So notes
or anything, or do you really just open up your
(33:26):
laptop and just start typing?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You just go, yeah, no notes. I mean, I mean, sure,
I'll keep track of certain things or names or characteristics
things like that, but it basically your everything you've written
at that point is one big set of notes to
go back to. And if your characters are clear enough
in your mind and sharp enough in your mind, you
(33:49):
shouldn't have to go back too often. I mean figuring
out little logistics and making sure that it's all consistent
in the end, but that can come out in the
editing process. So yeah, yeah, it's just sort of like
a story just unfolding, and I just want to see
where it goes. And so I.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Don't know, that's fascinating. It's intriguing to me. We interview
a lot of people, and I think we get a
different approach from almost everyone, and I think it's just
wonderfully brilliant that so many people can come at it
from a different place and yet end up with a
great book at the end. What does a typical writing
(34:29):
day look like for you, like, what's your process?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, I have been at the five Am Writers Club
since nineteen eighty three that I realized I was working,
you know, full time. We start having kids. We had
two daughters in ninety two and ninety six, and you know,
I realized that if I was going to make a
commitment to this, that the only way I was going
(34:55):
to be able to be productive on a regular basis
was to get up and get at it for two
hours every day, weekends too. I mean, I don't kill
myself or beat myself up if I miss a day
or something's happening. I do like on the road, traveling,
even you know, just getting up from the hotel room
and going downstairs to the coffee shop. That's just it
(35:15):
just becomes part of your system. And and you know,
if you're if your writer brain is thinking about the
story and where you are in the story, you've got
to go produce so you can keep filling in that
next question for the day of where we go from here.
So it's a dining room table. It's used to be.
(35:36):
I wrote by hand first, like six or so books.
We're all by hand, and I've slowly switched over to
a laptop because because of the because of the I
started to get some deadlines from editors and things like that.
So it's a little bit faster. Good problem to have, though, Yes, yeah, yeah, indeed.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I also still like writing in my spiral notebook, my
first draft and then transitioning that into the word documents.
My process hasn't changed, and I don't think that it probably.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Will excellent good for you. I wish I was still
there in some ways. I love that. People ask why
do you like that? And I say, I love two
things about it. No possibility for jumping on the internet,
because it's just my notebook, dining room table and the pen.
And the other crazy thing is I love the sound
of writing. It sounds crazy, it's just that little scratch.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'm there with you.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Now.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
You wrote this novel in present tense? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I noticed that too? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Did you? Was that a challenge for you?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Or like?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
What led you to make that artistic choice?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Okay, quick, quick story. I'll make this as fast as
I can. This story actually is a book I started
writing in two thousand and one. Idea for this book
came to me in two thousand and one, and I
got a couple of little odd offers from agents at
the time, and I basically shut that process down, and
I just kept in my back pocket and kept working
(37:12):
on it, and I got in the rhythm of writing
my mystery series, and then when that ended in lots
of little agent back and forth I won't go into.
When it finally sold and went to its first editor
in April of twenty fourteen, thirteen months ago. It's very
(37:34):
first editor. My agent had had it for about six years.
He always liked the novel. We got into the baseball
novel produced that the editor who liked the baseball novel
didn't want to see my crime fiction. So I wrote
another novel for her, which is still being shopped because
she didn't care for the follow up, and so I
pulled out the no lie When it sold in April
(37:58):
of twenty fourteen, and I opened it up and it
was in past tense, and I couldn't I knew the
minute I saw the opening pages, I said, this is
wrong I had written. I just didn't feel right. So
I in a month, I converted the whole thing to
present tense without even asking the editor if that was okay.
(38:20):
I quickly bounced it off. My agent showed him a
couple of pages and he said, that's absolutely the right
way to go. And I've had many people, you know,
comment on it. I just think it lends an immediacy
to it. It was it's tricky in spots to pull off,
but it just adds a little little level of urgency
(38:41):
for a thriller. It's kind of a mystery, but it's
also got some thriller vibes, I think in terms of
how its structured. So I just I just knew. I
I mean, I really almost recoiled when I was reading it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Past tense.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
I see a lot of books we're seeing a shift
to that. I mean, five ten years ago, it was
far more rare to see a book written in present tents.
But we're we're moving more and more in that direction.
It's I'm even getting used to it. It used to
jar me when I would open a book and start
reading and it was in present tense. But I'm getting
(39:19):
accustomed to it. I can adapt. This is going, This
is your is your third novel? Have I got that right?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
This is number seven? Seven? Yeah, seven five books, five
books in the mystery series, Alison Coyle Mystery series.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Then the Fireballer and then this, So, what are some
things that you've learned so far? I mean, that's a
pretty good writing journey. Are there some things you can
share for our listeners?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, even even after being published, you get better, At
least for me, I must be. I'm a really slow learner,
but reading some of my things that did get published.
In fact, when the five books in my Mystery series
worked with three different small publishers, the last of which
(40:10):
was Midnight, Inc. Which medium sized national house out of
Minnesota that had about eighty or so crime fiction authors,
but they shut down.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Another mine was published by then I knew where you
were going with that.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
And so I got my rights back from all three
publishers and I republished all five books under my own
name to keep them alive. And thank God for the
tools and systems of independent publishing to be able to
do that. But when I republished book one, I had
to rewrite it. My standards had changed, my idea of
(40:48):
sentence craft, paragraph organization, extraneous crap, just things that matter
and did matter. I knew I had to rewrite it.
I couldn't put that back out and feel good about it. So,
you know, even if you think you're good, I would
really urge you to leave open the possibility of the
(41:08):
fact that you might get better and to be keeping
open that open mind, will you know, benefit you for
a long long time. And you know, just I would
if being open mind to your own level of of
what quality you're shooting for, and also really being open
(41:30):
minded to the editors you get to work with when
you sell a book.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
And you have just described exactly why I have never
reread any of my early novels and never will, I mind,
I wouldn't love the experience. So before we sign off, Mark,
what's coming up next or what are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, the editor's reading a sequel. I thought it was
a standalone. She told me, no, this is not a standalone.
You need to find a way to keep this story.
It'll be a tight three book trilogy if all goes well,
over and out with my main character, Flynn Martin, and
then the uh, there's a rock and roll there's a
books in the world of rock and roll that my
agent is selling right now.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
It's on the market. So that's what's next crossed. Yeah,
I want to read that one. Thank you so much
for being on the podcast. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Thank you for all you do. Yeah, you bet.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Just a few parting words. This will probably be the
last time this year you'll hear me talk about the
writer Con cruise. But that's because it's about to happen.
So if you're going to join us, join up fast,
and I really hope you will. We have worked double
hard to find a cruise that is beautiful but affordable
and still leaves us plenty of time to do the
(42:56):
writing work. In fact, I made the schedule yesterday and
mapped out we're at sea this day, so we'll meet more.
We're in sick of that day, so we'll just meet
have the boat pulls out. You know, you'll have plenty
of time for sight seeing and some beautiful country, but
we're also gonna roll up the sleeves and get some
real writing work done, trying to take what you've got
(43:20):
and push it to the next level. That's May thirty
first through June seventh, that leaves from Seattle, and it's
not too long too late to sign up. Just go
to Writercon dot com and look at the cruise page
and if you have any questions click on contact and
I'll get back to.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
You as soon as possible.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
All right, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
What, it's almost too late, so don't wait too much longer.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, you'll wait and wait.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Where else are you gonna like work on your book
and get to see whales like it's gonna be so
much fun And I'm so ready ready to get by
you guys?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Ready?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
A valid point? All right? Everybody? Until next time, keep
writing and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
See you next time.
This week on the writer Con podcast, get.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yourself a Network. The words don't matter, the writing will come.
Get yourself in network, get yourself friends in the writing world.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
the want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thank you, Jesse l Rich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
joining us today. Everyone here at writer Con Central is
back from their travels or ready to go back to
the much more important work of being writers and podcasters
and sound engineers. Jesse, how was Ireland?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Ireland was lovely. It was like it was like the
southern Island of New Zealand, but which is a lot
more people, just like apparently we were blessed with incredibly
good weather. It sprinkled once and apparently supposed to rain
the entire time. It was like sunny and sixties and beautiful,
and everyone was very kind and sweet, and the food
(01:12):
and beer and whiskey was delicious.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Oh yeah, well yeah, Now all the posts I saw
were from Northern Ireland. Were you just there? Did you
go into the nation.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, yes, We started off in Belfast for Michelle and
I's anniversary, and then we met some friends in Dublin
and then did a couple days in Dublin, a couple
of days in Cork, and then went down to this
tiny port city to take a boat ride to the
island where they filmed all of like Luke Skywalker's intro
scenes in you know, A Force Awakens and Last Jedi,
(01:44):
and then went back to Dublin for a day and
then back to Belfast to fly out.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So you were in Dublin a lot. This is This
is a Book podcast. I got to ask, did you
see the Book of Kels.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
We did see the Book of Kells. The Book of
Kells exhibit was awesome. Also went to the Museum of
Irish Literature, which was very James Joyce heavy. Obviously they
actually had like one of the original copies that was
sent back to him of your listens. Yeah, and that
was really cool. The Book of Kels is incredible. And again,
(02:19):
as a Jewish person, I'm looking at the Book of
Kel's as just a really cool illustrated book, right pretty,
but it's it's fascinating, Like just the history of it
and everything. And by the way, for our listeners and viewers,
if you're ever in Ireland, make sure to stop by museums.
Their museums are incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So all right, especially and I'm never going to say
this again, especially the Titanic Museum in Belfast. Blown away
by this museum, it was incredible.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Okay, good to know, Laura. You just got back from
the OK Book Awards, where it looked to me that
about half of the nominees were books you edited. That
either you were slightly I.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Mean you were there. You were there as one of
the finalists, so huge congrats to you. I was, I was.
I did touch a lot of the books that were
finalists this year, which was wonderful. I was so excited
to see that come out. It doesn't it doesn't hit
the same as having one of your own books up there,
(03:26):
but I know I've been busy helping other people and
it also made for a very relaxed evening. There was
no anxiety. Fun.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
No, You're like tinkerbro You sprinkle fairy dust on other
people's books and they can fly.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I made that work so well. From Jesse. All right,
our interview today is with Mark Stevens, who is a
former reporter, pr man, and TV news producer who turned
his handwriting fiction. His award winning novel, The Fireballer was
named Best Baseball Novel in twenty twenty three, and he
(04:07):
has also written several crime and mystery novels, including Trapline,
which came out a couple of years ago and got
a lot of attention. His new novel is no Lie
Lass Forever, which involves a reporter investigating a cold case
serial killer who may have returned, but first the news
(04:44):
new story number one, the Million Lives Book Festival turns
out to be a disaster and possibly a complete scam.
You may have read this. It happened while I was
out of town, but I couldn't resist putting this on
the podcast anyway. Authors and visitors, they're about one hundred
authors and about forty visitors total, say that they are
(05:07):
out thousands of dollars after paying to attend or to
have sales exhibit tables at this Million Lives Book Festival
held in Baltimore and now go check it out. Dozens
of social media or TikTok posts videos authors saying they
were this is a quote duped into attending a low
(05:29):
quality book fair with poor attendants because there was really
nothing there except a big emptantee room. Some of you
are now probably harkening back to that fake Willy Wonka
experience I think was in the UK somewhere, or the
similar Bridgerton. Everybody shows up in costume and there's nothing
(05:49):
there here. People were told to come in black tie,
and people did. They're wearing these fancy ball gowns and
tuxes and nothing. I mean, I guess this is going
to happen, and everybody should check it out before they
show up. But I didn't expect to ever happen in
(06:10):
the book world, you know, I mean a fake book conference.
I guess it's a reminder of how important it is
to do your research and attend quality events, even if
they aren't necessarily the cheapest this one was. And look
what happened. Yeah, they lured so many people to this thing,
and you know, authors are hoping to get a little recognition,
(06:35):
maybe sell some books. Others are hoping to meet people,
and it's just a disaster that I think. Jesse's got
a video of the conference, which is basically this empty
convention center room. The TikTok videos show this undecorated room
with concrete floors and some folding tables chairs set up.
(06:56):
There was no program as such, and of course the
same page said no refunds. Not to be fair, the
one of the organizers may be backing off of that
and has sat on TikTok that they're going to try
and do refunds. But anyway, Wow, Jesse, how can people
distinguish frauds and amateurs and this was one or the other.
(07:22):
How can they distinguish that from real conferences?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I mean, I guess you just have to, like, yes,
you gotta do your research. You also have to see,
like is this new? Who's putting it on? Have they
put it on before? Because it seems like every industry
is going to have their fire their fire festival, you know,
or there. I was trying to make a James Fry
joke here, but I can't get the wording right friar festival.
(07:47):
Maybe anyway, there we go, nailed it all? Right? Uh yeah,
I mean it's gotta be careful. I mean there are
scams everywhere, and you know, we're we're onslide with spam
phone calls and tech these days and so you just
got to you gotta do your research and honestly, never
sign up for something that doesn't have a refund policy, right,
(08:09):
That's always a bad sign.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, that's yeah. Saying no refunds on the page where
you're supposed to lure people in, that is a bad sign.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
No refunds on something that's brand new, like, never a
good sign.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So, Laura, you know, and I think you agree. I
believe in writing conferences. We host one every year for
starters plause. I know many people who have gotten their
first agent or gotten their first deal at conferences or
cruises or retreats. How can people know what to do
and where to go to advance their writing careers.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
That's so difficult, especially if you're trying to give something
brand new a chance. I'm sure it did sound very enticing,
very fun. Who doesn't want to go to a black
type book event. I probably would have been showing it
to you if i'd seen it. Do you think, like
Jesse said, it's so important to check to see who's
(09:05):
behind it, who's putting it on, what kind of experience
they have. And he makes an excellent point. If there
is a no refunds on a brand new event like
nothing at all. It's so challenging, so many scams. I mean,
even when people reach out to me for potential editing,
(09:26):
they're many times apologetic. They're trying to you know, they're
asking me legitimate questions, and I come back and say,
these are smart questions. Do not apologize for being smart.
I think we don't want to feel like we're being
rude or something like that. But you do have to
you do have to protect yourself. And I'm always happy
(09:48):
to answer all of those questions because I'm not the
business of scamming anyone.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So yeah, I'm just shocked that. You know, maybe I'm
being too puritanical, but I am confident that whoever was
behind this, they aren't writers. Writers don't do this sort
of thing to one another. To me, writers are the
most generous person person people on earth. And so if
it wasn't writers, who wasn't I mean, who said, ah,
(10:17):
I know how to get people to come to an
empty conference center. This is even better than Willie Wonka.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Writers like no no refund and black tie. That's two
red flax. I'm like, I'm like black tie, Like black
tie seems indulgent.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I've seen conferences that had costume parties or dress up.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Some of us, some of us really like an excuse
to break out.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Talks too, but like for like a convention where you're
meeting people, I don't know, Like, yeah, it seemed like
it's one of those details where like what does this
have to do with the process of the thing?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
True?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, all right, all right. News story number two, which
possibly is even creepier than the first one. This is
about Agatha Christie rising from the dead to teach you
how to write.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
She lives right.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You may be familiar with programs like Masterclass here in
the United States, websites that have James Patterson Jesse's Favorite,
or Dan Brown teaching people how to write. Well, there's
a BBC similar program in the UK which is now
for the first time, offering instruction from arguably the greatest,
(11:40):
certainly the most successful mystery writer who ever lived, despite
the fact that she died decades ago. Yes, the Christie
estate has improved an AI reconstruction. I mean there's an
actual avatar you see of Agata Christie talking to you,
offering writing. Some of them are clips from past interviews
(12:03):
but the truth is she didn't give very many interviews.
She didn't go into that sort of thing. Most are
simply AI generated of I don't know what writing bits
that they're putting in. I mean, it's pretty obvious stuff
being put in Agatha Christie's AI ellipse. Here's the advertising
on the website. Go check this out. It says, in
(12:24):
a world first, the best selling novelist of all time
offers you an unparalleled opportunity to learn the secrets behind
her writing in her own words, made possible today by
Agatha's family, an expert team of academics and cutting edge
audio and visual specialists, as if she were teaching you herself.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm right here, Agatha Christie. People, come on, you want
to hear it?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Are you willing to go to advice? Yeah? Are you ready?
You're ready to go?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Listen. I'm ready for this avatar to murder someone. Then
someone had to solve it. That would be right on brand.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Do you think we could get the Christy avatar to
come to Ryder Con and maybe give it talk fascinating?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It had to be remote, yeah, like a put it
on the screen, holographic projectory type type thing.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Could be a first it could be, and then our
competitors will imitate it the next year, So maybe it's
not worth doing. Laura, would you be willing to give
this kind of instruction a try?
Speaker 4 (13:33):
While I do think it's very important to keep learning
and be open to anything that helps you learn. I
don't know. Is there it's remote?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Isn't it?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Is there a trip to England involved that?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Nothing? So I think it's just staring at your computer screen.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I think I would want to know who was actually
feeding the information into the avatar before I did.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
If they had an AI engine and they fed it
all eighty or whatever it is of her novels, maybe
it could deduce a few things. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
It's it's weird that's not using like information she publicly
gave other than her books, right, She didn't give a
lot of interviews, so like, how how is she gonna
like characters in her books aren't able to tell you
how to write?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Is going to say the little gray cells? Yeah, write
your book.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I mean listen, it'll tell you probably tell you how
to commit a murder and get away with it, right
or fail.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It's always the least likely suspect.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That's right, you've met them early, but they were very
not not interesting. But you have to you have to
meet them early.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
I know that at least so you forgot about it, right.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Wow, the world just keeps getting weirder.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I want I want to put this on record right
now when James Parrison does this, and he will and
he will no one buy it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
He's already doing recorded interviews by but I guess this
would be even less work than that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Just yeah, oh yeah. Also, in one of the many
airports I was in on my way from Ireland back,
I saw a James Parrison Michael Crichton book and I
was like, shame on you, Michael Crane.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Well he is Also he's also gone, did they find
an unfinished manuscript.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Or something I need to look at that?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I was just like, wait, report back to us.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, all right, I'll.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Craft corner this time. In this episode, we're launching a
fabulous and I mean that new series from John Myers
about very various situation issues that come up for everybody
who attempts to write fiction. This time, he's going to
be talking about character development and specifically this really fascinating
(15:49):
idea of using relationship theory to create your characters with
more depth and more relatability. So take it away, John.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Craft Corner.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
Welcome everybody to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm John Myers.
I'm half of Write Better Together. My business partner, Emily
Brooks and her husband are expecting a child and she's
taken time off for a little while, so I'm flying
solo here speaking of mothers and children today, I want
to talk to you about using attachment theory when you
(16:24):
developed your characters. Now, if you don't know what attachment
theory is, seventy years ago, they started an experiment by
putting a bunch of babies in a room with their mother.
After they were all calm and everything was good, they
removed a mother for a period of time, and then
they returned the mother afterwards. About half of the babies
took the mother back and were welcoming and we're pleased.
(16:47):
So those babies were determined to have a secure attachment style.
About twenty percent of the babies had what you would
call an anxious attachment style, and they were nervous while
the mother was gone and were reticent to accept the
mother back, but then eventually did. A third group of
babies were aloof and distant and aggravated when the mom
(17:12):
came back and ignored the mom and those babies were
deemed avoidant. Now some of these have different names, So
if you're familiar with attachment theory, it's evolved over the
last seventy years. The breakdown that I just gave you
was fifty percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious.
Well at least ten percent, doesn't it so In the nineties,
(17:34):
subsequent researchers classified those as disorganized or fearful avoidance. So
how does this affect you and your characters? Secure adults
tend to have healthy, trusting, and supportive relationships. Anxious adults
also called preoccupied, often crave intimacy and may struggle with
feelings of insecurity and fear of abandonment. Dismissive called avoidant,
(17:57):
are likely to avoid emotional closeness and may prioritize independence
over intimate relationships. Then the last one that disorganized a
fearful avoidant. They have a fear of getting too close.
Those are the least amount of people ten percent. Interestingly enough,
when they take surveys nowadays the percentages are about the same.
It was fifty three percent secure. One survey had fifty
(18:19):
eight percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious, then
ten percent disorganized fearfull avoidance. Now that you understand it,
I'm going to give you a practical application of how
to use it in your stories. Whether you're writing scenes
for screenplay or passages for a book. You want believable
tension and you want conflict. So if you have a
(18:40):
bunch of secure attachment characters in the same scene over
and over and over, how exciting is that going to be.
To the contrary, you can't have all the disorganized fearfull
avoidance because no one would want to read that book,
right if every character is despicable. These are the cheaters
who can't keep their commitment. They're getting married on Saturday,
(19:00):
but they have one last fling on Friday night. Those
are the disorganized attachment people. I try to think of
some examples from books to give you, but I'm gonna
have to use some movies as well. Trying to find
an example of secure adults in literature, that's a hard one, man.
All I could think of is Gomez and Rtitia Adams.
(19:21):
They have a loving relationship. They support each other no
matter what They speak positivity into Wednesday their daughter. They
might be a little bit over the top, but they
are definitely secure in their relationship. Anxious types. That one's easy.
So you have Ross from friends, you have Donkey and Shrek.
When you pair two of them together, you have Gats
(19:43):
being Daisy, both anxious types. However, even though Tom and
Daisy have problems, Tom is an example of a secure
attachment person, so that relationship is the more stable of
the two. As far as avoidance, early Harry Potter, he
goes to school, he doesn't want him to mesh with
the other student. That's a great example. Elsa and Frozen.
(20:06):
She's separated from her sister emotionally and physically, and they
don't want to get close to each other. Now, the
last one, the disorganized and fearful avoidant, just can't make
a commitment. If you watch the session, Shiv is that embodied.
She can't commit to anything. You can't have a story
(20:27):
with too many shives. So I'm in the middle of
adapting a sitcom into a novel. It'll be out in
time for writer Coon in September. It's really been eye
opening up when I've tried to apply these attachment theories
because you want the characters to push the plot forward.
But you can interchange some of the characters in some
of those plots to make the conflict bigger, or to
(20:49):
make the conflict more challenging. Just like the example I
gave with gatspying Daisy, if you put two anxious people
in the same scene in a screenplayer pass sit in
a book, it's going to be a different dynamic if
one of them is a peacemaker and has a secure
relationship attachment. Finally, I want to challenge you. Take your
work in progress and see if you can apply these
(21:12):
attachment theories to your characters. Then put your results down
in the comments underneath the episode, and thank you William,
Laura and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Thank you so much. John Meyer. Now let's talk to
Mark Stevens. Mark Stevens, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Thanks Emelie for having me, appreciate.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It, Thank you for coming. All right, traditional first question,
if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
would it be.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Get yourself a network. The words don't matter, the writing
will come. Get yourself a network. Get yourself friends in
the writing world, if they're fellow aspiring writers, if they're
anybody you can find who's a published writer. Chances are
they're going to help and give you help and introduce
you to people and make contacts and encourage you and
(22:10):
read your stuff when it's raw, read your stuff when
it's better, and read your stuff when it keeps getting better,
and be your cheerleader and hold you accountable for producing
some copy and encourage you to keep writing. There's plenty
of writing advice out there about the nuts and bolts
and making scenes or making great cliffhanger endings, whatever it
(22:33):
might be. But build your network, build it early.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's great advice. Well, of course I love that, because
that's what writer con is kind of all about me
meet up with some like minded people and help one
another and it usually works. Now, you had several careers
before you turn to writing. I think you were in
public relations and you're a reporter. You were in TV
news producing, right. Did you enjoy all that or and
(23:04):
have you left it behind now or.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah? Well, I've had the luckiest career. From about sixth
grade on, I knew I wanted to be a reporter.
I thought there was something, you know, just so interesting
and kind of just I don't think I thought it
was romantic at the time, but I loved the idea
of traveling and going to see things and learning about
the world. And my mother would bring home the Boston
(23:28):
Evening Globe. Of course, this is a long time ago,
because there was an evening paper, but I was in
the sixth grade and I'd take it to the couch
and go read the evening paper. In sixth grade and
just always wanted to be a reporter. I worked from
my high school newspaper, I worked for my college newspaper.
I was a full time journalist a couple of days
after I graduated, and yeah, I just thought it would
(23:50):
be a reporter forever. I spent the first twenty years
in journalism, oh yeah, and four different organizations, including working
for National News organization public broadcasting but still National News.
And then I switched over, much to my surprise, into
school public relations. I was shocked by that switch, but
(24:14):
I really had a great career both in journalism one
side of the fence throwing angernades on the other side
of the fence catching a grenades as a public relations
person trying to keep them from not exploding. But yeah,
so no, I'm still do a little bit of pr
and still actually do a little bit of journalism too.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
But somehow along the way you turned your hand to
writing fiction. How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It happened in nineteen eighty three. Gulp, I shouldn't even
say that out loud. Yeah. Always been a reader of
books as a kid. My parents were both librarians. If
you can imagine growing up in such a wonderful as
old as that, I was the middle boy. I caught
the reading bug, but never really thought I could write
(25:06):
anything until somebody handed me a mystery. I didn't really
know mysteries or crime fiction or anything like that until
somebody handed me a Patricia Heismith novel in nineteen eighty three,
and I started devouring crime fiction, and I thought, I
think I could try this, at least take a stab
at it. It's a much longer story than that, but
(25:28):
it took another twenty three years to get published, but
that's not averaging. Yep, I did get published, and yepantastic.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, and I want to talk about all that crime
fiction for sure, and your new novel that's hovering over
my shoulder right now. But I just have to say,
you wrote an absolutely acclaimed baseball novel, right how'd that
come about?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, that came about the same guy who lured me
over from the world of journalism to school district public relations.
He was superintendent at them for public schools in the
mid nineteen nineties, and he offered me a chance to
come work with him. Smart, thoughtful, even keel guy, not showy,
not boisterous, not an egomaniac, just the opposite of all that.
(26:18):
But he ran this huge organization. I really respected the
heck out of him, went to work for him. We
became friends. In fact, the reason we became friends is
because he spotted me reading a mystery novel one time
outside of a board meeting. They were in a closed session,
executive session, and I had hours to kill. This is
pre internet, and I was reading a mystery novel and
(26:40):
he came over since I loved that book, and we
became friends. He hired me over. We were friends from
the mid nineteen nineties on, and when we were having
lunch one day out in the parking in Burrito, he
casually said, you should write a book about a novel
about a pitcher who ruins the game of baseball. And
I casually said, what do you mean? And he said,
(27:03):
you know, imagine a pitcher who throws the baseball so
fast that there's no time left to swing, which, at
the top speed of pitching today, it's just incredible feat
that a batter even manages to get a bat on
a ball, because it's such a hard, hard thing to do,
and if you just up that speed level a little bit,
there's literally no time for the bat to come around,
(27:26):
so it would be an existential threat to the game.
And I went home that night and I kind of
liked it, but I can't say I loved it. But
then another part of the book just kind of came
to me, and I called him back the next day
and bounced that idea off him. He loved that second
half of the idea, and then I called my agent.
My agent said, stop everything and write that book. Oh sweet, Yeah,
(27:52):
good agent who actually had experience in the minor league
system with the New York Yankees as a chief operating
officer for the Staten Island Yankees. Baseball love baseball, and
he liked the book as well and managed to get
it sold.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Yeah, so your latest book is titled No Light Lasts Forever.
Tell us about that one.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, the idea is basically two characters of protagonist and antagonist.
Maybe a start with the antagonist because it's a little
bit unusual. It's a retired serial killer, a guy who
has committed his murders. He has stopped for fifteen years.
He's gone off to reform himself kind of sort of
(28:42):
and join the civilized world and kind of disappear into
the urban landscape, so to speak, as just another guy.
And he wants to go down in history as somebody
who was successful, like many serial killers out there who
become infamous and have drinks after them and things like that.
(29:03):
In the other corner is a TV reporter, a female
TV reporter who's a veteran. She's been around. She thinks
she's graduated from covering crime fiction to going on to
cover meteor topics like the environment, things like that, and
one day she gets drawn into a hostage taking situation
on live TV. He does a few things that are
(29:24):
out of what the cops are asking her to do.
The tragedy happens, she gets suspended from her station and
she is on the outs from her TV station, and
right then brand new serial killer case emerges. Our retired
serial killer knows he did not do it, so he
(29:46):
needs help clearing his name and making sure that this
new victim is not attached to his legacy, and he
certainly doesn't want the cops re energized around investigating the
whole thing. So he contacts her, and of course, at
first she's like, you know, he thinks he needs help,
and he's going to ask her to help her figure
out who did this latest one. Of course, she is like,
(30:08):
no way, no, how are you the guy? I don't
believe you through these encrypted messages that are coming through.
So he figures out a pretty bold way to prove
to her that it's him, And once he is convinced
her that he's the real deal, it's kind of off
to the races, and you know, she he is feeding
her information, but she also is trying to figure out
(30:30):
who he is right now.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
It's a terrific premise. I start. I will have to
admit I didn't finish, but I got well into it
when I got my advanced copy and it was just
absolutely rivetting and full of surprises, plot twists. How do
you come up with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, for me, it's all organic. I have no idea
where it's going.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
That's just what the listeners want to hear is well,
go to the store and I pay a twenty dollars
fee every month. But that's how it works right now.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
It's just you know, just thinking of all the possibilities
in every given situation, and if the current, you know,
and plot environment is rich enough, you should have some options.
And it's always better to turn up the heat a
little bit than to cool it down. It's always better
to think of what is the worst thing that could
happen right now for either character, and what is the
(31:29):
last thing they want to have happened, and consider that
as a possibility in every every moment.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, So with all those plot twists and all of
the turns going on in your book, how do you
start your project? I mean, you said you're kind of
it comes very organically to you. Are you saying that
you're a pantser versus a planner? I mean, do you
start with an outline or how do you approach a
new project?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah? If I don't know what the word outline even means,
I have, you know, I could guess I could look
it up, and I I'm just mystified by people. Outline.
I think there's it must be some alien creatures from
a distant dark planet who know how to do that.
I am baffled by that whole notion, and I kind
(32:20):
of respect it. But for me, if I were to
have outlined, I would have in my mind entertained myself
all the way to the end of the book, and
I wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be motivated to
write it anymore, because I would know me, I write
to kind of entertain myself and to see where it's going.
So and people ask me if you ever write out
a sequence, And even those people are just I think
(32:41):
they're crazy and need to be put away, because there's
just impossible for me to imagine any other way than
starting with a beginning the beginning might change, but then
following that along and at least developing a draft. But
people who can write, like, oh, I thought of a
middle scene, or I thought of the ending, so I
wrote the ending first. I'm I'm I don't know what
(33:02):
school they went to.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I'm with you on that I've had. I've had that
question asked of me at conferences and such, and I
I can't think of any time that I ever stopped
where I was at and went to write another scene
down the line, thinking I'll use this later, but now
the story kind of develops in my mind. So notes
or anything, or do you really just open up your
(33:26):
laptop and just start typing?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You just go, yeah, no notes. I mean, I mean, sure,
I'll keep track of certain things or names or characteristics
things like that, but it basically your everything you've written
at that point is one big set of notes to
go back to. And if your characters are clear enough
in your mind and sharp enough in your mind, you
(33:49):
shouldn't have to go back too often. I mean figuring
out little logistics and making sure that it's all consistent
in the end, but that can come out in the
editing process. So yeah, yeah, it's just sort of like
a story just unfolding, and I just want to see
where it goes. And so I.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Don't know, that's fascinating. It's intriguing to me. We interview
a lot of people, and I think we get a
different approach from almost everyone, and I think it's just
wonderfully brilliant that so many people can come at it
from a different place and yet end up with a
great book at the end. What does a typical writing
(34:29):
day look like for you, like, what's your process?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, I have been at the five Am Writers Club
since nineteen eighty three that I realized I was working,
you know, full time. We start having kids. We had
two daughters in ninety two and ninety six, and you know,
I realized that if I was going to make a
commitment to this, that the only way I was going
(34:55):
to be able to be productive on a regular basis
was to get up and get at it for two
hours every day, weekends too. I mean, I don't kill
myself or beat myself up if I miss a day
or something's happening. I do like on the road, traveling,
even you know, just getting up from the hotel room
and going downstairs to the coffee shop. That's just it
(35:15):
just becomes part of your system. And and you know,
if you're if your writer brain is thinking about the
story and where you are in the story, you've got
to go produce so you can keep filling in that
next question for the day of where we go from here.
So it's a dining room table. It's used to be.
(35:36):
I wrote by hand first, like six or so books.
We're all by hand, and I've slowly switched over to
a laptop because because of the because of the I
started to get some deadlines from editors and things like that.
So it's a little bit faster. Good problem to have, though, Yes, yeah, yeah, indeed.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I also still like writing in my spiral notebook, my
first draft and then transitioning that into the word documents.
My process hasn't changed, and I don't think that it probably.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Will excellent good for you. I wish I was still
there in some ways. I love that. People ask why
do you like that? And I say, I love two
things about it. No possibility for jumping on the internet,
because it's just my notebook, dining room table and the pen.
And the other crazy thing is I love the sound
of writing. It sounds crazy, it's just that little scratch.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'm there with you.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Now.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
You wrote this novel in present tense? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I noticed that too? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Did you? Was that a challenge for you?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Or like?
Speaker 4 (36:46):
What led you to make that artistic choice?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Okay, quick, quick story. I'll make this as fast as
I can. This story actually is a book I started
writing in two thousand and one. Idea for this book
came to me in two thousand and one, and I
got a couple of little odd offers from agents at
the time, and I basically shut that process down, and
I just kept in my back pocket and kept working
(37:12):
on it, and I got in the rhythm of writing
my mystery series, and then when that ended in lots
of little agent back and forth I won't go into.
When it finally sold and went to its first editor
in April of twenty fourteen, thirteen months ago. It's very
(37:34):
first editor. My agent had had it for about six years.
He always liked the novel. We got into the baseball
novel produced that the editor who liked the baseball novel
didn't want to see my crime fiction. So I wrote
another novel for her, which is still being shopped because
she didn't care for the follow up, and so I
pulled out the no lie When it sold in April
(37:58):
of twenty fourteen, and I opened it up and it
was in past tense, and I couldn't I knew the
minute I saw the opening pages, I said, this is
wrong I had written. I just didn't feel right. So
I in a month, I converted the whole thing to
present tense without even asking the editor if that was okay.
(38:20):
I quickly bounced it off. My agent showed him a
couple of pages and he said, that's absolutely the right
way to go. And I've had many people, you know,
comment on it. I just think it lends an immediacy
to it. It was it's tricky in spots to pull off,
but it just adds a little little level of urgency
(38:41):
for a thriller. It's kind of a mystery, but it's
also got some thriller vibes, I think in terms of
how its structured. So I just I just knew. I
I mean, I really almost recoiled when I was reading it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Past tense.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
I see a lot of books we're seeing a shift
to that. I mean, five ten years ago, it was
far more rare to see a book written in present tents.
But we're we're moving more and more in that direction.
It's I'm even getting used to it. It used to
jar me when I would open a book and start
reading and it was in present tense. But I'm getting
(39:19):
accustomed to it. I can adapt. This is going, This
is your is your third novel? Have I got that right?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
This is number seven? Seven? Yeah, seven five books, five
books in the mystery series, Alison Coyle Mystery series.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Then the Fireballer and then this, So, what are some
things that you've learned so far? I mean, that's a
pretty good writing journey. Are there some things you can
share for our listeners?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, even even after being published, you get better, At
least for me, I must be. I'm a really slow learner,
but reading some of my things that did get published.
In fact, when the five books in my Mystery series
worked with three different small publishers, the last of which
(40:10):
was Midnight, Inc. Which medium sized national house out of
Minnesota that had about eighty or so crime fiction authors,
but they shut down.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Another mine was published by then I knew where you
were going with that.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
And so I got my rights back from all three
publishers and I republished all five books under my own
name to keep them alive. And thank God for the
tools and systems of independent publishing to be able to
do that. But when I republished book one, I had
to rewrite it. My standards had changed, my idea of
(40:48):
sentence craft, paragraph organization, extraneous crap, just things that matter
and did matter. I knew I had to rewrite it.
I couldn't put that back out and feel good about it. So,
you know, even if you think you're good, I would
really urge you to leave open the possibility of the
(41:08):
fact that you might get better and to be keeping
open that open mind, will you know, benefit you for
a long long time. And you know, just I would
if being open mind to your own level of of
what quality you're shooting for, and also really being open
(41:30):
minded to the editors you get to work with when
you sell a book.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
And you have just described exactly why I have never
reread any of my early novels and never will, I mind,
I wouldn't love the experience. So before we sign off, Mark,
what's coming up next or what are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, the editor's reading a sequel. I thought it was
a standalone. She told me, no, this is not a standalone.
You need to find a way to keep this story.
It'll be a tight three book trilogy if all goes well,
over and out with my main character, Flynn Martin, and
then the uh, there's a rock and roll there's a
books in the world of rock and roll that my
agent is selling right now.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
It's on the market. So that's what's next crossed. Yeah,
I want to read that one. Thank you so much
for being on the podcast. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Thank you for all you do. Yeah, you bet.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Just a few parting words. This will probably be the
last time this year you'll hear me talk about the
writer Con cruise. But that's because it's about to happen.
So if you're going to join us, join up fast,
and I really hope you will. We have worked double
hard to find a cruise that is beautiful but affordable
and still leaves us plenty of time to do the
(42:56):
writing work. In fact, I made the schedule yesterday and
mapped out we're at sea this day, so we'll meet more.
We're in sick of that day, so we'll just meet
have the boat pulls out. You know, you'll have plenty
of time for sight seeing and some beautiful country, but
we're also gonna roll up the sleeves and get some
real writing work done, trying to take what you've got
(43:20):
and push it to the next level. That's May thirty
first through June seventh, that leaves from Seattle, and it's
not too long too late to sign up. Just go
to Writercon dot com and look at the cruise page
and if you have any questions click on contact and
I'll get back to.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
You as soon as possible.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
All right, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
What, it's almost too late, so don't wait too much longer.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, you'll wait and wait.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Where else are you gonna like work on your book
and get to see whales like it's gonna be so
much fun And I'm so ready ready to get by
you guys?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Ready?
Speaker 3 (44:00):
A valid point? All right? Everybody? Until next time, keep
writing and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
See you next time.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.