December 20, 2024 • 38 mins
Happy holidays! This is our last episode for 2024, but we will be back in January with more news and interviews!
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview DC Frost.
(0:00) Opening Thoughts
Lara and Jesse make New Years resolutions.
(3:26) News
1) Taylor Swift Self-Publishes Eras Tour Book Thru Target. (This segment was recorded before the boo-boo-ridden book was released and dubbed the "Errors Tour Book.")
2) TikTok Expands its Publishing Ventures
(14:25) Craft Corner
Desiree Duffy of Black Chateau and Books That Make You offers suggestions for writers in 2025.
(19:04) DC Frost discusses writing and her books and so muhc more!
(35:47) Parting Words
Bill mentions two Christmas books: his novel, The Midnight Before Christmas and an anthology he edited featuring writers using their series characters in holiday stories, Christmas Tapestry. Lara's holiday offering is Christmas Spirit, the 5th in her Wantland Files series.
Happy holidays!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview DC Frost.
(0:00) Opening Thoughts
Lara and Jesse make New Years resolutions.
(3:26) News
1) Taylor Swift Self-Publishes Eras Tour Book Thru Target. (This segment was recorded before the boo-boo-ridden book was released and dubbed the "Errors Tour Book.")
2) TikTok Expands its Publishing Ventures
(14:25) Craft Corner
Desiree Duffy of Black Chateau and Books That Make You offers suggestions for writers in 2025.
(19:04) DC Frost discusses writing and her books and so muhc more!
(35:47) Parting Words
Bill mentions two Christmas books: his novel, The Midnight Before Christmas and an anthology he edited featuring writers using their series characters in holiday stories, Christmas Tapestry. Lara's holiday offering is Christmas Spirit, the 5th in her Wantland Files series.
Happy holidays!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Take a time, one time to day, get yourself a routine.
He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
number of hours you're going to write and do it
every single day.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Burnhardt, Award
winning author of the Want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich and Ho Ho Ho Writers. Thanks
for joining us for another episode of this podcast. I
know you're busy. Christmas is just write around the corner.
Hanaka is just writer around the corner, And we very
much appreciate you carving out time for this podcast. Just
(00:53):
don't get so busy you forget to write every day
or as often as possible. We here at the podcast
are going to take a holiday hiatus until January, but
we'll be back with more episodes after this when in
twenty twenty five. But since we won't be around on
the first, I thought this is the time to talk
(01:14):
about not only the December holidays, but New Year's as well. Laura,
have you got any book related resolutions planned for twenty
twenty five?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yes? My resolution for next year is to find more
time to write my own books. I have been very
blessed with being able to work with a lot of
really talented authors this year, which brings me great satisfaction,
lots of joy in and of itself when I'm working
(01:48):
with someone to edit their book and help bring that
into the world. But my time is limited, and so
what's happened is I did finish a book and it's
out on submission right now, but I would have liked
to have had more writing of my own done as well.
So that's my plan for next year look a good one.
(02:09):
I have a little bit better balance, maybe keep helping others,
but also allow more time for myself perfection.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
That should be everyone's resolution, Jesse, no pressure, But what
are you going to do differently next year?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, I'm hoping I can continue the momentum that I
actually started this week, which is focusing on myself first
and then getting my life in order so I can
then better help others going forward. So you know, you know,
self help, not taking on too many things.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, they do always tell you on the airplane, put
the air mask on yourself first, Yes, then take care
of other people.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
It makes so much sense, but it's it really is
a tough balance to find because I I do enjoy
all the projects that come to me, and it can
be very difficult to find enough time for yourself to
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Give me like getting your life and older enough to
then be able to spend the time that you want
on the creative things that you enjoy doing. That is
my goal for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That's a good work life balance. But first the news.
(03:41):
In today's news segment, we're going to discuss three new
publishing platforms and some that may surprise you. Maybe not
the first one, because new story number one is about
Taylor Swift, and who could be surprised by anything she
did at this point, Well, she's going to publish her
first book, and guess what, She's self publishing it. So
(04:06):
next time you hear someone making negative remarks about people
who's self published, you can bring up not only JK. Rowling,
not only James Batterson to some extent, but also now
Taylor Swift because her first book Taylor Swift. The Era's
Tour book is going to be published and distributed by
(04:31):
you guessed it, Taylor Swift. It's going to be self
published under a new imprint. She's creating Taylor Swift Publications.
So this billionaire singer, now writer, now prose writer. I
should say, she's always written her songs, but she's bypassing
traditional publishers and distributing what entirely and releasing it exclusively
(04:55):
with Target. Of course, if I could get an exclusive
deal with i'd listen. But right, you know, celebrity titles
every year bring millions of dollars to traditional publishing. It's
one of the most reliable kinds of books they publish.
So this is a big deal and could be the
(05:17):
start of even a bigger deal, even though it's I
don't know why it would be surprising. That's how she's
always done. She's always been entrepreneurial, run her own show,
and she clearly has the fan base to support it.
But it is making people wonder if this is the
start of something new or just the next step in
(05:42):
the diminishing influence of the Big five publishers. I don't know, Laura,
what do you think is this good for publishing or.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Bad publishing, meaning the big traditional.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Publishers sure go that way.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm sure that they think this is very bad. They
would have loved to have had Taylor Swift's book to
bring out to the world, So yeah, it's it's not
good for them. But I think that we're going to
continue to see publishing move in this direction where more
(06:16):
people who have the fan base can just bring their
own books out and cut out the need for that
middle person. And that's unfortunate because you're talking about those
celebrity books that's turned into I think a little more
of their bread and butter. They've got their back list
and their celebrity books, but I think maybe that wasn't
(06:38):
necessarily the best way for them to go. They stopped
trying to develop new authors and bring out new talent,
and we went elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah. Well, and it certainly makes self publishing a bible.
Although is this really different from people like Hugh Howie,
who you know would let the big five publishers print
books but kept the e book rights or JK. Rowling
I mentioned before she recovered the e book rights so
she could sell them herself, because that just makes sense.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
This does seem like another step forward to me, because
Taylor Swift went completely around them, completely, and she has
the ability to approach Target and say, hey, I'll release
it here with you guys, if you will, if you
will have them in your store, And.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Who wouldn't have I bet Target was all over there.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Target did prideam Layer finish the sentence. There's a guest, yes, right, yes,
Taylor says, so, yes, whatever.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
It is exactly so, she's in an enviable position and
he doesn't. Yes, not a business model that will work
for the vast majority of us, But I'm thrilled for her.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well not yet. But isn't that how it always starts
when we have these paradigm shifts in any industry, There's
got to be somebody who who blazes the trail, and
it's got to be somebody with some clout like Rolling
or Taylor Swift. Jesse, I don't. I know you've got
a thing about Jesse, about James Patterson, but I'm not
(08:13):
sure how you feel about someone who might actually even
be more wealthy and more famous. Are you a secret swifty?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I'm not secret swifty. I mean again, how you like?
How can you have a heart and a soul and
not one enjoy her music and two enjoy her success
like good for her. I'm I'm happy for her. I'm
happy that she's starting her own publishing arm again. I
feel like more competition allows for more authors gain their
books out there. And you know, just like with like
(08:45):
Oprah's Book Club, if this is another way for new
authors to get a bump because Telshift's like, I want
to publish your book that feels like that feels like
good and a good addition to our system that we
currently have.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well we talk about the Big Five. If I'm not
sure this is her groove, but if she wanted to
expand this imprint and publish more books, she could be
the sixth entry in the Big Five overnight. I suspect.
And speaking of other people doing similar things, remember former
(09:17):
NFL player Colin Kaepernick who started his own publishing company
like four years ago, mostly focusing on comic books graphic novels,
And now he's launched something called Loomy. That's Lumi, which
is going to be a self publishing platform for people
writing comic books and graphic novels. He's already raised four
(09:40):
million for that, and that of course leads us to
my official news story number two, which is about another
publishing venture, this one coming from TikTok. Because Byte Dance,
the Chinese tech giant company that owns TikTok, They've already
been publishing digital books, but now they've got a print
(10:04):
imprint they call Eighth note Book Eighth Note Press, and
they're going to focus on, of course, the genres that
would appeal to the TikTok audience, most meaning romance, romanticy
and young adult fiction obviously targeting targeting younger readers and
(10:25):
book talk influencers and the people have made Colleen Hoover
and a lot of other writers huge. So Laura, as
we've been saying, I like it when authors have alternatives.
I'm always pro author, But at some point, I mean,
if TikTok becomes the Big six or Tailor's who if
(10:49):
it becomes seven. I mean one of the main reasons
people go to traditional publishers is to get their books
in bookstores. These TikTok books are probably never going to
show up in Barnes and Noble unless they become incredibly popular,
but clearly they think they can reach their audience another way,
(11:11):
meaning through their app is this a good trend for publishing?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Well, maybe not for bookstores if we're talking about fewer
and fewer books going to the bookstores. But we continue
to see things change, and if eventually maybe they could
start putting those books in bookstores. I mean, yeah, take care.
(11:41):
Colleen Hoover and her books are everywhere. We saw her
books in Egypt. They're literally everywhere. So in that regard,
it could be considered good for them, but not if
everyone keeps going around. But again, maybe we're just gonna
We're going to see a little shifts in the business
(12:01):
and how it works and how those books wind up
in those bookstores.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
It seems like there's a difference though, between you know,
book talk influencers saying go buy this book by Colleen
Hoover at your bookstore and TikTok now starting their own
imprint Eighth Note Press, which you know might get in books.
You know you're not going to see Burns and Noble
(12:26):
offering anything that was published by Amazon, right, That's never happened,
never will happen. I don't know if they'll be similarly
hostile to TikTok or not. So I should ask you, Jesse,
because you are a complete TikTok addict. I know, and uh.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Love making what love the TikTok again? TikTok probably the
most distracting thing I could ever do. Really Yeah, yeah,
just instant videos like it's it's bad.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I was just kidding. But okay, Well, would you buy
a TikTok published book?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah? I mean, if it's a book I'm interested in,
I don't care who publishes it, and there we care
if I can write it.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
That's the thing a lot of people who are in
our world don't realize because you know, we're all, oh,
I got this publisher or that publisher. But most people
buying books, especially online, they noticed the author's name, they
read the book description. They don't notice who published it.
They don't care who published.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
No, why why would any like, why would any reader care?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, trestiese factor is I think dispear.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
More importantly, I think it used we as authors used
to believe that that coveted book deal with a larger
publisher would result in greater sales. Higher visibility getting into
the bookstores meant more. But we talked about a couple
of episodes ago. We talked about where the majority of
(13:54):
sales are coming from and so many of the sales
are coming from digital versions of books now, so it's growing.
It's a smaller and smaller revenue source, and I think
it's not going to Maybe the TikTok publish, the Taylor
(14:14):
Swift published, these other publishers can start to get you
more of that visibility. Those might become the more covetive
book publishers as we move forward, because they're going to
result in what we're really after, which is more visibility
and more book sales.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right, So here's the takeaway for you writers out there.
The book world is changing. All the ideas, predispositions, prejudices
you may have formed forty years ago or twenty or
even ten, we do not live in that world anymore.
(14:51):
The publishing world has changed, it will continue to change,
and you need to stay on top of what's going on.
Can change with it when appropriate, so you can get
your books out there. Okay, Well, today in Kraft Corner
we have Desiree Duffy, a longtime friend of this podcast.
She's Got She of course runs Black Chateau and Books
(15:14):
That Make You. She is the go to expert on
the subject of bookmarketing. Marketing and since we're rapidly approaching
the new year, she's going to offer some tips on
marketing your book in the coming year. In the New Year,
take it away Desiree Craft Corner.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
The new year is a pivotal time for books, readers
and writers because our focus shifts to what's coming next,
and in times of dramatic change, we often also look
for sources of comfort, escape, and knowledge. That's where books
come in this twenty twenty five, maybe more so than ever,
(15:58):
Every new year has folks stocking their reading list or
there to be read list. Want to see what people
are putting on theirs, Search TBR as a hashtag and
see what's trending on various social media platforms. This means
you're using the TBR hashtag to do a bit of
(16:19):
your own market research. What books are trending in genres
like yours. Notice any trends that you can take advantage
of in the new year. Are there other authors who
are similar that you can position yourself with? Then use
the TBR hashtag in your own campaigns. If you are
releasing a book in twenty twenty five, use hashtag TBR
(16:42):
and hashtag TBR twenty twenty five to jump on the
hashtag bandwagon. Then consider writing blog content and posting it
to your own website with your TBR recommendations for readers
who enjoy your book's genre or similar subject matter. Posts
(17:03):
like this, often called listicles, are a favorite among the
reading communities, and as a marketer, I know listicles can
have far reaching and even viral results. Example, let me
break this down for you. If you happen to have
a new novel coming out, let's say it's a dystopian
(17:23):
and it's releasing in twenty twenty five, list several popular
other dystopian novels that are also coming out. Add in
some from similar authors or from your friends, associates, or
the writers that you might know from writer con or
your writing group, and for good measure, throw in a
classic or two. Then use that blog post as part
(17:47):
of your content strategy and post it several times between
December and even into late January. Remember use the hashtags
and pro tip. Many readers who create a team do
so far in advance. Try and hit them while they're
planning theirs in late twenty twenty four, host the blog
(18:08):
with your listical with all those other books. Post it
on social media several times, and if you have author
friends in this list, ask them to do the same together.
You're stronger. And you can also boost or advertise it
on meta or on other advertising platforms that you may use,
(18:28):
and put the listicle in your email, newsletter or substat
however you reach your fan base. Shout out your TBR
twenty twenty five. I'm Desire Duffy, founder of Black Chattel,
the book Fast and Books that Make You. We promote
a lot of books using listicles like this in the
new year and throughout. Ever need a hand in your
(18:50):
book promotion, don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you to William,
Laura Jesse and the whole writer Con podcast team for
inviting me to share during this craft Corner.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
DC Frost, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Thank you so much. Just wonderful to be here.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Okay, I'm going to call you Denise from now on.
Is that okay? Because that is good calling somebody DC.
It's just like you don't know him very well. Plus
to me, DC means comic books. We don't want to
get off on the wrong tangent. I mean, I'm actually
wearing this right now, so.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I have a comic book character in my book, and
my name is actually yes, I do, and my name
is Denise Cecilia. But that always sounds like when my
mom would call me and get mad at me.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
So I get that.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
I get that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
All right, Well, we have a traditional first question. If
you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I'm going to tell you what my therapist showed to
me during the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
This is the first. Okay, Yes, well I.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Had I actually had a very dear friend who had cancer,
and I I did take I did listen to a
therapy or I actually worked with therapists for a long time.
And one of the things he told me when I
said I'm having trouble writing, and he was absolutely right,
pick a time, one time a day, get yourself a routine.
He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
(20:16):
five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
number of hours you're going to write and do it
every single day, and your muse will show up if
you're there. And it's true. I started writing, I was
probably about three quarters of the way through the book,
which i'd been for many, many, many many months, and
that really propelled the book forward, helped me rewrite it,
(20:39):
help me finish it. It was just everything. And it
also just gives you a routine and a rhythm. And
if you show up, your writing will show up.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah. I think that's terrific advice. All Right, we're going
to talk about your new first book. But before you
got to this point, you had other jobs and impact.
You did a lot of work for nonprofits, right.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
I did.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I worked for many years for Public Television, a local
station case Et in Los Angeles, which doesn't really exist anymore.
And I also worked for Public I actually worked for PBS.
We had a group, a sponsorship group, so that was
very exciting. And I worked for Variety for a short
period of time before I worked at a small Yeah,
(21:28):
it's it was. It was eye opening. And then I
worked for a small liberal arts college in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Did you write for Variety? Were you interviewing celebs or anything?
Speaker 5 (21:41):
Cool?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I was actually working No, I wasn't doing anything cool.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
I was actually working in it's a cool job.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's cool. It's cool.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I was working in marketing. But actually, how places like
Variety at that time made their money was to focus
on a producer, a star, a director, and you would
do a special on them, meaning that there'd be a
story on them, and of course you would sort of
leverage every all their friends and their working colleagues to
honor them by taking out an ad And so that's
(22:12):
what I did. And I have to say I expected
the writers to be all like wonderful and happy, and
I thought, this is going to be so exciting. I'm
going to meet all these writers. But in Hollywood it
kind of works a little bit differently. It's not so
much fun working for I think in entertainment magazine and
then working with the studios. It's a pretty tough job actually,
(22:33):
and you're still recording news. So I had a real
eye opening experience doing that, but it was exciting.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
How did you get interested in writing, because it sounds
like you already had enough to do.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Really, Ever since I've been a kid, I've written. I
would watch TV shows and write scripts. And then when
I was learning the guitar when I was about twelve,
I learned by writing songs. It just that's the way
I learned. And so I started writing short stories, and
I've had about four or five literary stories published in
(23:08):
journals around the United States. Had a mentor, so I've
always written. It's been really important to me. But I
loved mysteries when I was I started with Nancy Drew
and wrapped up to Agatha Christie in high school, and
then during the pandemic, I reread every Agatha Christie and
I just I like to see the world, and first
(23:29):
of the world is mysterious, and I like to see
the world through mysteries. And I like to explore regions.
When I go to a different area, I like to
pick up something by a local author because you get
the sense of a place, how it is to live there.
And somebody gets murdered, but you know what, can you say?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It is a mystery after.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
All, this mystery.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So that brings us to this great, wonderful new book,
your first book, yes, called A Punishing Breed. Tell us
about it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
So it takes place on a small liberal arts campus
in the heart of Los Angeles, and it explores just
the kind of a melting pot of what Los Angeles is,
but also what a small liberal arts college is, particularly
a residential campus, where you've got the trustees, who I
think are sort of the overseers of this world. You've
(24:21):
got the faculty who are. I'm not going to say
they're indentured servants, but they're indentured in some ways because
they tend to spend their career there, so their connection
to that institution is much different than the people who
are passing through the staff. And then you've got the
students who are there for four years and want to
make their mark and a lot of protests, a lot
(24:43):
of a lot of like learning and trying to really
discover themselves. So it's just a very interesting sort of
like environment that I think you can introduce a lot
of themes and thoughts into. So there's a character who
obviously is but it also explores what it really means
to belong to a place and how you actually negotiate
(25:06):
that and discover yourself through being in a particular place.
That's really I think focused on self discovery and learning.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I can't help but notice you mentioned working for at
a small liberal arts college, and now you're describing the
setting and your book as being one is there. Did
you kind of infuse the story with some of your
actual experiences or was this just kind of something you're
familiar with and decided it was a good place to
(25:38):
place the story.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I think more just felt it was a place that
I could place. It was a setting I could place
the story, and really the characters there are an amalgam
of different people I've met throughout my career. And I
think that when you're younger and you want to work
at nonprofits, you think it's going to be a completely
different experience than working at a four profit, and I
(26:00):
think it's really not. I think human beings are human beings.
And I think there's that uh that you know that
that quote. I think that people say it's by Henry Kissinger,
but I think it's about something else about You're in
this small liberal arts college and it's just as vicious
anywhere else. But what is it? It's that but that
(26:22):
the uh, the the the challenges are are there, but
the what it's worth is very small. What he was
trying to say, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, academic politics are the worst because the stakes are
so low.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I thought that was fascinating. I think that's a
fascinating thing because it doesn't really matter where you are,
that you're you're still dealing with human beings who are
some are good, some are not, some are you know, thoughtful,
some are not. So I just used that, but I
think really a lot of characters came from people I've
known throughout the years, and also being Latino half Latino,
(27:09):
I really wanted to explore what it feels like to
be sort of connected to your culture, but to be
two or three generations away from it, and so you're
always trying to figure out how that plays into your
thoughts in your life. And you've got your grandparents who
are close to who maybe from Mexico, but you're not,
And so how does that really work, you know, in
(27:30):
your life, and how does that influence you.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Speaking of characters, tell us about your protagonist.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
So dj Arius is my protagonist, and he is not
particularly a very happy, go lucky guy. In fact, a
lot of people think he is a terrible person, but
he does have an arc. I think by the end
of the book he does change a little. And I
really wanted to write a character that was male because
I think a lot of men write characters that are women,
(27:58):
and I wanted to really explore what that felt like
to be a woman writing a male character. And I
wanted the women in my story to be protagonists and
to be smart I really sometimes bristle at mysteries that
are for women, where women can't really see that the
person there with is like a jerk, controlling and yes,
(28:23):
and all these friends and everybody telling this person.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Here blind to it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, blind to it. So I really wanted to turn
it on its head and maybe have the male character
be that, but also be someone who has to learn lessons,
maybe over and over again, like we all do.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Yes, I like it. That's good. So what does a
typical writing day look like for you? You mentioned your
music comes at five am? So what how can you
talk to us about your process a little bit? I'm
an eye owl, and so every time I hear someone
say that they're a five am writer, I just I
(28:58):
just cringe.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
But please sure your process with us.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's not so hard because my husband is also
he's a reporter, so he gets up about four point thirty,
so we're kind of an early rise house. And I've
always been a morning person. So I get up about
five o'clock. I go into my office. I write for
at least two hours, but if things are good, it'll
go longer than that, maybe three hours. And I've just
recently retired, so I am extending that time and then
(29:26):
I toodled around and then I rewrite and I'm just
actually getting used to not having a day job. So
that's been very interesting. Thank you, it's been It's been
really an interesting transition. I'm still trying to get to
normalize it. I've had some family issues here with some
health with my mom, so we're trying to get into
(29:48):
a routine. But I really do believe that showing up
for your writing is so important. And to me, if
I can write, I feel like my life has more
meaning and it's more just because I understand things better
when I sort of write them. And I find that
that being a writer, and you know, both of you,
(30:09):
I think maybe we all have that same experience where
we write something and we go back and look at
it a year later and think, oh, I discovered something,
and I had discovered it, but I didn't realize it
it was through my writing. And so I think that,
you know, exploring, I think we work out a lot
of issues in our writing that maybe aren't so conscious,
(30:31):
but we realize later that that that's what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It's a fair point, and I know I get very
restless and anxious and can't be still when I'm not writing.
When when I'm not allowing that process to come through
for me, I get very uncomfortable. So I do think
as writers, we need to be writing or we just
will not be satisfied.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I think that's true.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah, here's a question I always ask everyone. Are you
a panther or a planner? And do you know what
I mean by panser? Do you write by the seat
of your pants or do you kind of start with
an outline and then move forward from there.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I'm a pancer. So I started writing literary fiction, and
I had a mentor and he really believed that it's
in your you write and the answer will come as
you work through your story. And then when I did
start writing a novel, I thought, well, that's crazy because
suddenly you're in the middle of you know, one hundred
(31:34):
pages and you're like, where is this going? But it's
very interesting. I don't know you've I'm sure you've read this.
I know you all read this book by Stephen King
on writing. And I had read all these books you
should outline, you shouldn't outline, and I just did not
want to outline. And I read the Stephen King book,
and I really liked what he said. You know, he said,
(31:55):
it's like flying on a trapeze and you go and
if you don't let yourself fly, you won't discover these
things that are out there in the air. And I
love that sort of analogy of just like discovering things.
And I do think he's right. I think that you
realize that suddenly you're writing chapter thirty and you realize, oh,
(32:18):
that directly correlates back to chapter two, where you had
this symbolic sort of thing in there. And I feel
like that does happen in a way, your first draft
becomes your outline. And when you go back, like when
I'm three quarters, Yeah, when I'm three quarters the way through,
which I did in my first book, and I'm doing
now in my second book, I'm rewriting it, and I realized,
(32:39):
in a lot of ways, that is your outline.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
I'm cutting off.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You cut a lot of stuff away, but that wouldn't
have been there, I think if I had planned it
all out. But I think you just have to do
what's best for you, what you really feel comfortable with,
and what you really what makes you feel like you
are really getting to the truth of the story.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
I think that's the most important thing. When people tell
me that they just absolutely can't outline, I say, well,
then don't, because if it hinders you from writing at all,
then it's not a good tool. So I think it's
important to find where you fall on that spectrum and
work within it. Just like when you write, you have
to find what works for you and go that way,
(33:23):
that route.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think what you said is really important. I'm sorry,
I know I think this is so important because I
hear people say this. You know, I think you write,
just write because and you're right, don't let anything stop
you from writing. And that's why I think it's so
important to have an appointment with yourself. You can always
go back and you can rewrite it, or you can
(33:45):
say this will lead you to somewhere else, and maybe
that first page you wrote will disappear. But I you know,
so many people say they want to write, and they
just become paralyzed by actually sitting up writing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
I have someone at a conference once come up to
me after having just listened to someone say that you
have to get up at five in the morning, which
works great for you, Husza, but he came up and said,
I can't get up that early, so I guess I
can't be a writer. And I was like, that's the
wrong message to take from this. Where can you write
just fine time and make it for yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Absolutely? Well, my best friend's a late night person, so
I think it's whenever you have that ability to concentrate
and do whatever you need to do.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
That's all. Yeah, all right, one last question, Denise, what's next?
I'm guessing this is the first book in a series, right,
it is seven ext we'll see more.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, so dj Aris is coming back, and I'm I've
set the beginning in Mexico City because we have family
there and I find that city to be fascinating. And
then it also moves into more what the entertainment industry
is in Law Angelos in California, because it is an
industry and it's a hard working one, and I think
you see a lot of times Los Angeles portrayed it's
(35:07):
a glitzy place, when really it's a pretty hard working place.
My son is works for a director, and you know,
if he works fourteen fifteen hours a day, it's not
you know, it's not like a drug adult movie stars
running around. I mean maybe part of that is but
there's a lot of very hard working people that you know,
and this is a very big industry, and I feel
(35:29):
that California and Los Angeles is sometimes portrayed in a
way that makes it seem not as hard working and
not as creative and not as industrious as it really is.
So that's one of the things I really would like
to change.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Sure, well, we will anxiously await the release of that
second book. Maybe we can get you back to talk
about that. Denise, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
(36:12):
Just a few parting words. First of all, let me
remind you that your hosts have written Christmas books, and
when would be a better time to read them than
right now. I wrote that book Hovering over my Shoulder
the midnight before Christmas a few years ago, but I
got to tell you it's still one of my favorites
if you choose to read it. And you're wondering, where
(36:34):
did you get this wacky idea for the ceramic coopie dolls.
That's what my grandmother Bernhardt used to give me every
year for Christmas. There's also Christmas Tapestry, an anthology of tales,
including one by me. Authors writing Christmas stories involving their
series characters. And Lara's fifth book in the Wantland File series. Right,
(36:59):
that's Christmas, it isn't it.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Yep, seventh book but fifth in that series. Absolutely correct.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right, And while you're in the Christmas period, remember what
Jesse was saying earlier. Don't get so wrapped up in
the shopping and the hustle and the bustle that you
forget to take time for yourself and your family and
the things that actually matter most, including your writing. Right
every day if you can, even Stephen King claims he
(37:27):
takes off Christmas, but remember the things that are most
important to you and your heart as well. All right,
until next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail
if you refuse to quit. Merry Christmas, everybody, see you
next year.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
A psident spent
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Take a time, one time to day, get yourself a routine.
He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
number of hours you're going to write and do it
every single day.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Burnhardt, Award
winning author of the Want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich and Ho Ho Ho Writers. Thanks
for joining us for another episode of this podcast. I
know you're busy. Christmas is just write around the corner.
Hanaka is just writer around the corner, And we very
much appreciate you carving out time for this podcast. Just
(00:53):
don't get so busy you forget to write every day
or as often as possible. We here at the podcast
are going to take a holiday hiatus until January, but
we'll be back with more episodes after this when in
twenty twenty five. But since we won't be around on
the first, I thought this is the time to talk
(01:14):
about not only the December holidays, but New Year's as well. Laura,
have you got any book related resolutions planned for twenty
twenty five?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yes? My resolution for next year is to find more
time to write my own books. I have been very
blessed with being able to work with a lot of
really talented authors this year, which brings me great satisfaction,
lots of joy in and of itself when I'm working
(01:48):
with someone to edit their book and help bring that
into the world. But my time is limited, and so
what's happened is I did finish a book and it's
out on submission right now, but I would have liked
to have had more writing of my own done as well.
So that's my plan for next year look a good one.
(02:09):
I have a little bit better balance, maybe keep helping others,
but also allow more time for myself perfection.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
That should be everyone's resolution, Jesse, no pressure, But what
are you going to do differently next year?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, I'm hoping I can continue the momentum that I
actually started this week, which is focusing on myself first
and then getting my life in order so I can
then better help others going forward. So you know, you know,
self help, not taking on too many things.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, they do always tell you on the airplane, put
the air mask on yourself first, Yes, then take care
of other people.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
It makes so much sense, but it's it really is
a tough balance to find because I I do enjoy
all the projects that come to me, and it can
be very difficult to find enough time for yourself to
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Give me like getting your life and older enough to
then be able to spend the time that you want
on the creative things that you enjoy doing. That is
my goal for twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That's a good work life balance. But first the news.
(03:41):
In today's news segment, we're going to discuss three new
publishing platforms and some that may surprise you. Maybe not
the first one, because new story number one is about
Taylor Swift, and who could be surprised by anything she
did at this point, Well, she's going to publish her
first book, and guess what, She's self publishing it. So
(04:06):
next time you hear someone making negative remarks about people
who's self published, you can bring up not only JK. Rowling,
not only James Batterson to some extent, but also now
Taylor Swift because her first book Taylor Swift. The Era's
Tour book is going to be published and distributed by
(04:31):
you guessed it, Taylor Swift. It's going to be self
published under a new imprint. She's creating Taylor Swift Publications.
So this billionaire singer, now writer, now prose writer. I
should say, she's always written her songs, but she's bypassing
traditional publishers and distributing what entirely and releasing it exclusively
(04:55):
with Target. Of course, if I could get an exclusive
deal with i'd listen. But right, you know, celebrity titles
every year bring millions of dollars to traditional publishing. It's
one of the most reliable kinds of books they publish.
So this is a big deal and could be the
(05:17):
start of even a bigger deal, even though it's I
don't know why it would be surprising. That's how she's
always done. She's always been entrepreneurial, run her own show,
and she clearly has the fan base to support it.
But it is making people wonder if this is the
start of something new or just the next step in
(05:42):
the diminishing influence of the Big five publishers. I don't know, Laura,
what do you think is this good for publishing or.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Bad publishing, meaning the big traditional.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Publishers sure go that way.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm sure that they think this is very bad. They
would have loved to have had Taylor Swift's book to
bring out to the world, So yeah, it's it's not
good for them. But I think that we're going to
continue to see publishing move in this direction where more
(06:16):
people who have the fan base can just bring their
own books out and cut out the need for that
middle person. And that's unfortunate because you're talking about those
celebrity books that's turned into I think a little more
of their bread and butter. They've got their back list
and their celebrity books, but I think maybe that wasn't
(06:38):
necessarily the best way for them to go. They stopped
trying to develop new authors and bring out new talent,
and we went elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah. Well, and it certainly makes self publishing a bible.
Although is this really different from people like Hugh Howie,
who you know would let the big five publishers print
books but kept the e book rights or JK. Rowling
I mentioned before she recovered the e book rights so
she could sell them herself, because that just makes sense.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
This does seem like another step forward to me, because
Taylor Swift went completely around them, completely, and she has
the ability to approach Target and say, hey, I'll release
it here with you guys, if you will, if you
will have them in your store, And.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Who wouldn't have I bet Target was all over there.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Target did prideam Layer finish the sentence. There's a guest, yes, right, yes,
Taylor says, so, yes, whatever.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
It is exactly so, she's in an enviable position and
he doesn't. Yes, not a business model that will work
for the vast majority of us, But I'm thrilled for her.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well not yet. But isn't that how it always starts
when we have these paradigm shifts in any industry, There's
got to be somebody who who blazes the trail, and
it's got to be somebody with some clout like Rolling
or Taylor Swift. Jesse, I don't. I know you've got
a thing about Jesse, about James Patterson, but I'm not
(08:13):
sure how you feel about someone who might actually even
be more wealthy and more famous. Are you a secret swifty?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I'm not secret swifty. I mean again, how you like?
How can you have a heart and a soul and
not one enjoy her music and two enjoy her success
like good for her. I'm I'm happy for her. I'm
happy that she's starting her own publishing arm again. I
feel like more competition allows for more authors gain their
books out there. And you know, just like with like
(08:45):
Oprah's Book Club, if this is another way for new
authors to get a bump because Telshift's like, I want
to publish your book that feels like that feels like
good and a good addition to our system that we
currently have.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well we talk about the Big Five. If I'm not
sure this is her groove, but if she wanted to
expand this imprint and publish more books, she could be
the sixth entry in the Big Five overnight. I suspect.
And speaking of other people doing similar things, remember former
(09:17):
NFL player Colin Kaepernick who started his own publishing company
like four years ago, mostly focusing on comic books graphic novels,
And now he's launched something called Loomy. That's Lumi, which
is going to be a self publishing platform for people
writing comic books and graphic novels. He's already raised four
(09:40):
million for that, and that of course leads us to
my official news story number two, which is about another
publishing venture, this one coming from TikTok. Because Byte Dance,
the Chinese tech giant company that owns TikTok, They've already
been publishing digital books, but now they've got a print
(10:04):
imprint they call Eighth note Book Eighth Note Press, and
they're going to focus on, of course, the genres that
would appeal to the TikTok audience, most meaning romance, romanticy
and young adult fiction obviously targeting targeting younger readers and
(10:25):
book talk influencers and the people have made Colleen Hoover
and a lot of other writers huge. So Laura, as
we've been saying, I like it when authors have alternatives.
I'm always pro author, But at some point, I mean,
if TikTok becomes the Big six or Tailor's who if
(10:49):
it becomes seven. I mean one of the main reasons
people go to traditional publishers is to get their books
in bookstores. These TikTok books are probably never going to
show up in Barnes and Noble unless they become incredibly popular,
but clearly they think they can reach their audience another way,
(11:11):
meaning through their app is this a good trend for publishing?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Well, maybe not for bookstores if we're talking about fewer
and fewer books going to the bookstores. But we continue
to see things change, and if eventually maybe they could
start putting those books in bookstores. I mean, yeah, take care.
(11:41):
Colleen Hoover and her books are everywhere. We saw her
books in Egypt. They're literally everywhere. So in that regard,
it could be considered good for them, but not if
everyone keeps going around. But again, maybe we're just gonna
We're going to see a little shifts in the business
(12:01):
and how it works and how those books wind up
in those bookstores.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
It seems like there's a difference though, between you know,
book talk influencers saying go buy this book by Colleen
Hoover at your bookstore and TikTok now starting their own
imprint Eighth Note Press, which you know might get in books.
You know you're not going to see Burns and Noble
(12:26):
offering anything that was published by Amazon, right, That's never happened,
never will happen. I don't know if they'll be similarly
hostile to TikTok or not. So I should ask you, Jesse,
because you are a complete TikTok addict. I know, and uh.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Love making what love the TikTok again? TikTok probably the
most distracting thing I could ever do. Really Yeah, yeah,
just instant videos like it's it's bad.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I was just kidding. But okay, Well, would you buy
a TikTok published book?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah? I mean, if it's a book I'm interested in,
I don't care who publishes it, and there we care
if I can write it.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
That's the thing a lot of people who are in
our world don't realize because you know, we're all, oh,
I got this publisher or that publisher. But most people
buying books, especially online, they noticed the author's name, they
read the book description. They don't notice who published it.
They don't care who published.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
No, why why would any like, why would any reader care?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, trestiese factor is I think dispear.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
More importantly, I think it used we as authors used
to believe that that coveted book deal with a larger
publisher would result in greater sales. Higher visibility getting into
the bookstores meant more. But we talked about a couple
of episodes ago. We talked about where the majority of
(13:54):
sales are coming from and so many of the sales
are coming from digital versions of books now, so it's growing.
It's a smaller and smaller revenue source, and I think
it's not going to Maybe the TikTok publish, the Taylor
(14:14):
Swift published, these other publishers can start to get you
more of that visibility. Those might become the more covetive
book publishers as we move forward, because they're going to
result in what we're really after, which is more visibility
and more book sales.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right, So here's the takeaway for you writers out there.
The book world is changing. All the ideas, predispositions, prejudices
you may have formed forty years ago or twenty or
even ten, we do not live in that world anymore.
(14:51):
The publishing world has changed, it will continue to change,
and you need to stay on top of what's going on.
Can change with it when appropriate, so you can get
your books out there. Okay, Well, today in Kraft Corner
we have Desiree Duffy, a longtime friend of this podcast.
She's Got She of course runs Black Chateau and Books
(15:14):
That Make You. She is the go to expert on
the subject of bookmarketing. Marketing and since we're rapidly approaching
the new year, she's going to offer some tips on
marketing your book in the coming year. In the New Year,
take it away Desiree Craft Corner.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
The new year is a pivotal time for books, readers
and writers because our focus shifts to what's coming next,
and in times of dramatic change, we often also look
for sources of comfort, escape, and knowledge. That's where books
come in this twenty twenty five, maybe more so than ever,
(15:58):
Every new year has folks stocking their reading list or
there to be read list. Want to see what people
are putting on theirs, Search TBR as a hashtag and
see what's trending on various social media platforms. This means
you're using the TBR hashtag to do a bit of
(16:19):
your own market research. What books are trending in genres
like yours. Notice any trends that you can take advantage
of in the new year. Are there other authors who
are similar that you can position yourself with? Then use
the TBR hashtag in your own campaigns. If you are
releasing a book in twenty twenty five, use hashtag TBR
(16:42):
and hashtag TBR twenty twenty five to jump on the
hashtag bandwagon. Then consider writing blog content and posting it
to your own website with your TBR recommendations for readers
who enjoy your book's genre or similar subject matter. Posts
(17:03):
like this, often called listicles, are a favorite among the
reading communities, and as a marketer, I know listicles can
have far reaching and even viral results. Example, let me
break this down for you. If you happen to have
a new novel coming out, let's say it's a dystopian
(17:23):
and it's releasing in twenty twenty five, list several popular
other dystopian novels that are also coming out. Add in
some from similar authors or from your friends, associates, or
the writers that you might know from writer con or
your writing group, and for good measure, throw in a
classic or two. Then use that blog post as part
(17:47):
of your content strategy and post it several times between
December and even into late January. Remember use the hashtags
and pro tip. Many readers who create a team do
so far in advance. Try and hit them while they're
planning theirs in late twenty twenty four, host the blog
(18:08):
with your listical with all those other books. Post it
on social media several times, and if you have author
friends in this list, ask them to do the same together.
You're stronger. And you can also boost or advertise it
on meta or on other advertising platforms that you may use,
(18:28):
and put the listicle in your email, newsletter or substat
however you reach your fan base. Shout out your TBR
twenty twenty five. I'm Desire Duffy, founder of Black Chattel,
the book Fast and Books that Make You. We promote
a lot of books using listicles like this in the
new year and throughout. Ever need a hand in your
(18:50):
book promotion, don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you to William,
Laura Jesse and the whole writer Con podcast team for
inviting me to share during this craft Corner.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
DC Frost, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Thank you so much. Just wonderful to be here.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Okay, I'm going to call you Denise from now on.
Is that okay? Because that is good calling somebody DC.
It's just like you don't know him very well. Plus
to me, DC means comic books. We don't want to
get off on the wrong tangent. I mean, I'm actually
wearing this right now, so.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I have a comic book character in my book, and
my name is actually yes, I do, and my name
is Denise Cecilia. But that always sounds like when my
mom would call me and get mad at me.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
So I get that.
Speaker 5 (19:39):
I get that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
All right, Well, we have a traditional first question. If
you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I'm going to tell you what my therapist showed to
me during the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
This is the first. Okay, Yes, well I.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Had I actually had a very dear friend who had cancer,
and I I did take I did listen to a
therapy or I actually worked with therapists for a long time.
And one of the things he told me when I
said I'm having trouble writing, and he was absolutely right,
pick a time, one time a day, get yourself a routine.
He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
(20:16):
five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
number of hours you're going to write and do it
every single day, and your muse will show up if
you're there. And it's true. I started writing, I was
probably about three quarters of the way through the book,
which i'd been for many, many, many many months, and
that really propelled the book forward, helped me rewrite it,
(20:39):
help me finish it. It was just everything. And it
also just gives you a routine and a rhythm. And
if you show up, your writing will show up.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah. I think that's terrific advice. All Right, we're going
to talk about your new first book. But before you
got to this point, you had other jobs and impact.
You did a lot of work for nonprofits, right.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
I did.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I worked for many years for Public Television, a local
station case Et in Los Angeles, which doesn't really exist anymore.
And I also worked for Public I actually worked for PBS.
We had a group, a sponsorship group, so that was
very exciting. And I worked for Variety for a short
period of time before I worked at a small Yeah,
(21:28):
it's it was. It was eye opening. And then I
worked for a small liberal arts college in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Did you write for Variety? Were you interviewing celebs or anything?
Speaker 5 (21:41):
Cool?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I was actually working No, I wasn't doing anything cool.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
I was actually working in it's a cool job.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's cool. It's cool.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I was working in marketing. But actually, how places like
Variety at that time made their money was to focus
on a producer, a star, a director, and you would
do a special on them, meaning that there'd be a
story on them, and of course you would sort of
leverage every all their friends and their working colleagues to
honor them by taking out an ad And so that's
(22:12):
what I did. And I have to say I expected
the writers to be all like wonderful and happy, and
I thought, this is going to be so exciting. I'm
going to meet all these writers. But in Hollywood it
kind of works a little bit differently. It's not so
much fun working for I think in entertainment magazine and
then working with the studios. It's a pretty tough job actually,
(22:33):
and you're still recording news. So I had a real
eye opening experience doing that, but it was exciting.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
How did you get interested in writing, because it sounds
like you already had enough to do.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Really, Ever since I've been a kid, I've written. I
would watch TV shows and write scripts. And then when
I was learning the guitar when I was about twelve,
I learned by writing songs. It just that's the way
I learned. And so I started writing short stories, and
I've had about four or five literary stories published in
(23:08):
journals around the United States. Had a mentor, so I've
always written. It's been really important to me. But I
loved mysteries when I was I started with Nancy Drew
and wrapped up to Agatha Christie in high school, and
then during the pandemic, I reread every Agatha Christie and
I just I like to see the world, and first
(23:29):
of the world is mysterious, and I like to see
the world through mysteries. And I like to explore regions.
When I go to a different area, I like to
pick up something by a local author because you get
the sense of a place, how it is to live there.
And somebody gets murdered, but you know what, can you say?
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It is a mystery after.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
All, this mystery.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So that brings us to this great, wonderful new book,
your first book, yes, called A Punishing Breed. Tell us
about it.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
So it takes place on a small liberal arts campus
in the heart of Los Angeles, and it explores just
the kind of a melting pot of what Los Angeles is,
but also what a small liberal arts college is, particularly
a residential campus, where you've got the trustees, who I
think are sort of the overseers of this world. You've
(24:21):
got the faculty who are. I'm not going to say
they're indentured servants, but they're indentured in some ways because
they tend to spend their career there, so their connection
to that institution is much different than the people who
are passing through the staff. And then you've got the
students who are there for four years and want to
make their mark and a lot of protests, a lot
(24:43):
of a lot of like learning and trying to really
discover themselves. So it's just a very interesting sort of
like environment that I think you can introduce a lot
of themes and thoughts into. So there's a character who
obviously is but it also explores what it really means
to belong to a place and how you actually negotiate
(25:06):
that and discover yourself through being in a particular place.
That's really I think focused on self discovery and learning.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I can't help but notice you mentioned working for at
a small liberal arts college, and now you're describing the
setting and your book as being one is there. Did
you kind of infuse the story with some of your
actual experiences or was this just kind of something you're
familiar with and decided it was a good place to
(25:38):
place the story.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I think more just felt it was a place that
I could place. It was a setting I could place
the story, and really the characters there are an amalgam
of different people I've met throughout my career. And I
think that when you're younger and you want to work
at nonprofits, you think it's going to be a completely
different experience than working at a four profit, and I
(26:00):
think it's really not. I think human beings are human beings.
And I think there's that uh that you know that
that quote. I think that people say it's by Henry Kissinger,
but I think it's about something else about You're in
this small liberal arts college and it's just as vicious
anywhere else. But what is it? It's that but that
(26:22):
the uh, the the the challenges are are there, but
the what it's worth is very small. What he was
trying to say, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, academic politics are the worst because the stakes are
so low.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I thought that was fascinating. I think that's a
fascinating thing because it doesn't really matter where you are,
that you're you're still dealing with human beings who are
some are good, some are not, some are you know, thoughtful,
some are not. So I just used that, but I
think really a lot of characters came from people I've
known throughout the years, and also being Latino half Latino,
(27:09):
I really wanted to explore what it feels like to
be sort of connected to your culture, but to be
two or three generations away from it, and so you're
always trying to figure out how that plays into your
thoughts in your life. And you've got your grandparents who
are close to who maybe from Mexico, but you're not,
And so how does that really work, you know, in
(27:30):
your life, and how does that influence you.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Speaking of characters, tell us about your protagonist.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
So dj Arius is my protagonist, and he is not
particularly a very happy, go lucky guy. In fact, a
lot of people think he is a terrible person, but
he does have an arc. I think by the end
of the book he does change a little. And I
really wanted to write a character that was male because
I think a lot of men write characters that are women,
(27:58):
and I wanted to really explore what that felt like
to be a woman writing a male character. And I
wanted the women in my story to be protagonists and
to be smart I really sometimes bristle at mysteries that
are for women, where women can't really see that the
person there with is like a jerk, controlling and yes,
(28:23):
and all these friends and everybody telling this person.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Here blind to it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, blind to it. So I really wanted to turn
it on its head and maybe have the male character
be that, but also be someone who has to learn lessons,
maybe over and over again, like we all do.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Yes, I like it. That's good. So what does a
typical writing day look like for you? You mentioned your
music comes at five am? So what how can you
talk to us about your process a little bit? I'm
an eye owl, and so every time I hear someone
say that they're a five am writer, I just I
(28:58):
just cringe.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
But please sure your process with us.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's not so hard because my husband is also
he's a reporter, so he gets up about four point thirty,
so we're kind of an early rise house. And I've
always been a morning person. So I get up about
five o'clock. I go into my office. I write for
at least two hours, but if things are good, it'll
go longer than that, maybe three hours. And I've just
recently retired, so I am extending that time and then
(29:26):
I toodled around and then I rewrite and I'm just
actually getting used to not having a day job. So
that's been very interesting. Thank you, it's been It's been
really an interesting transition. I'm still trying to get to
normalize it. I've had some family issues here with some
health with my mom, so we're trying to get into
(29:48):
a routine. But I really do believe that showing up
for your writing is so important. And to me, if
I can write, I feel like my life has more
meaning and it's more just because I understand things better
when I sort of write them. And I find that
that being a writer, and you know, both of you,
(30:09):
I think maybe we all have that same experience where
we write something and we go back and look at
it a year later and think, oh, I discovered something,
and I had discovered it, but I didn't realize it
it was through my writing. And so I think that,
you know, exploring, I think we work out a lot
of issues in our writing that maybe aren't so conscious,
(30:31):
but we realize later that that that's what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It's a fair point, and I know I get very
restless and anxious and can't be still when I'm not writing.
When when I'm not allowing that process to come through
for me, I get very uncomfortable. So I do think
as writers, we need to be writing or we just
will not be satisfied.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I think that's true.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah, here's a question I always ask everyone. Are you
a panther or a planner? And do you know what
I mean by panser? Do you write by the seat
of your pants or do you kind of start with
an outline and then move forward from there.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I'm a pancer. So I started writing literary fiction, and
I had a mentor and he really believed that it's
in your you write and the answer will come as
you work through your story. And then when I did
start writing a novel, I thought, well, that's crazy because
suddenly you're in the middle of you know, one hundred
(31:34):
pages and you're like, where is this going? But it's
very interesting. I don't know you've I'm sure you've read this.
I know you all read this book by Stephen King
on writing. And I had read all these books you
should outline, you shouldn't outline, and I just did not
want to outline. And I read the Stephen King book,
and I really liked what he said. You know, he said,
(31:55):
it's like flying on a trapeze and you go and
if you don't let yourself fly, you won't discover these
things that are out there in the air. And I
love that sort of analogy of just like discovering things.
And I do think he's right. I think that you
realize that suddenly you're writing chapter thirty and you realize, oh,
(32:18):
that directly correlates back to chapter two, where you had
this symbolic sort of thing in there. And I feel
like that does happen in a way, your first draft
becomes your outline. And when you go back, like when
I'm three quarters, Yeah, when I'm three quarters the way through,
which I did in my first book, and I'm doing
now in my second book, I'm rewriting it, and I realized,
(32:39):
in a lot of ways, that is your outline.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
I'm cutting off.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You cut a lot of stuff away, but that wouldn't
have been there, I think if I had planned it
all out. But I think you just have to do
what's best for you, what you really feel comfortable with,
and what you really what makes you feel like you
are really getting to the truth of the story.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
I think that's the most important thing. When people tell
me that they just absolutely can't outline, I say, well,
then don't, because if it hinders you from writing at all,
then it's not a good tool. So I think it's
important to find where you fall on that spectrum and
work within it. Just like when you write, you have
to find what works for you and go that way,
(33:23):
that route.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think what you said is really important. I'm sorry,
I know I think this is so important because I
hear people say this. You know, I think you write,
just write because and you're right, don't let anything stop
you from writing. And that's why I think it's so
important to have an appointment with yourself. You can always
go back and you can rewrite it, or you can
(33:45):
say this will lead you to somewhere else, and maybe
that first page you wrote will disappear. But I you know,
so many people say they want to write, and they
just become paralyzed by actually sitting up writing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
I have someone at a conference once come up to
me after having just listened to someone say that you
have to get up at five in the morning, which
works great for you, Husza, but he came up and said,
I can't get up that early, so I guess I
can't be a writer. And I was like, that's the
wrong message to take from this. Where can you write
just fine time and make it for yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Absolutely? Well, my best friend's a late night person, so
I think it's whenever you have that ability to concentrate
and do whatever you need to do.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
That's all. Yeah, all right, one last question, Denise, what's next?
I'm guessing this is the first book in a series, right,
it is seven ext we'll see more.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, so dj Aris is coming back, and I'm I've
set the beginning in Mexico City because we have family
there and I find that city to be fascinating. And
then it also moves into more what the entertainment industry
is in Law Angelos in California, because it is an
industry and it's a hard working one, and I think
you see a lot of times Los Angeles portrayed it's
(35:07):
a glitzy place, when really it's a pretty hard working place.
My son is works for a director, and you know,
if he works fourteen fifteen hours a day, it's not
you know, it's not like a drug adult movie stars
running around. I mean maybe part of that is but
there's a lot of very hard working people that you know,
and this is a very big industry, and I feel
(35:29):
that California and Los Angeles is sometimes portrayed in a
way that makes it seem not as hard working and
not as creative and not as industrious as it really is.
So that's one of the things I really would like
to change.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Sure, well, we will anxiously await the release of that
second book. Maybe we can get you back to talk
about that. Denise, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
(36:12):
Just a few parting words. First of all, let me
remind you that your hosts have written Christmas books, and
when would be a better time to read them than
right now. I wrote that book Hovering over my Shoulder
the midnight before Christmas a few years ago, but I
got to tell you it's still one of my favorites
if you choose to read it. And you're wondering, where
(36:34):
did you get this wacky idea for the ceramic coopie dolls.
That's what my grandmother Bernhardt used to give me every
year for Christmas. There's also Christmas Tapestry, an anthology of tales,
including one by me. Authors writing Christmas stories involving their
series characters. And Lara's fifth book in the Wantland File series. Right,
(36:59):
that's Christmas, it isn't it.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Yep, seventh book but fifth in that series. Absolutely correct.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right, And while you're in the Christmas period, remember what
Jesse was saying earlier. Don't get so wrapped up in
the shopping and the hustle and the bustle that you
forget to take time for yourself and your family and
the things that actually matter most, including your writing. Right
every day if you can, even Stephen King claims he
(37:27):
takes off Christmas, but remember the things that are most
important to you and your heart as well. All right,
until next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail
if you refuse to quit. Merry Christmas, everybody, see you
next year.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
A psident spent
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