March 26, 2025 • 39 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Emily Carpenter, a former actor, producer, screenwriter, and behind-the-scenes soap opera assistant. She is also the author of the bestselling novels Burying the Honeysuckle Girls and The Weight of Lies. Her new novel is called Gothictown.
0:00 Opening Thoughts
The Oklahoma Book Awards love WriterCon writers!
3:13 News
1) Mass-Market Paperbacks are Disappearing Fast
2) Dogfluencers Get Major Book Deals
14:36 Craft Corner
Betsey Kulakowski (The Veritas Codex series) discusses imposter syndrome and how writers can avoid it.
18:36 Interview with Emily Carpenter
36: 35 Parting Words
WriterCon Alaskan Cruise: We have worked double-hard to find something beautiful but affordable. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and go see glaciers. It’s May 31-June 7 leaving from Seattle. For more info, please visit our website.
My novel, Challengers of the Dust, has been released. This is set in 1935 Dust Bowl Oklahoma. Two young men are forced to undertake an impossible mission—find a local bigwig’s wayward daughter—which sends them on a cross-country journey during which they meet many Depression-era people, including the famous or soon-to-be famous. A change of pace for me, but I hope a lot of fun and a good read, especially for those interested in the Great Depression, WWII era, the period that literally transformed America. In a good way.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
0:00 Opening Thoughts
The Oklahoma Book Awards love WriterCon writers!
3:13 News
1) Mass-Market Paperbacks are Disappearing Fast
2) Dogfluencers Get Major Book Deals
14:36 Craft Corner
Betsey Kulakowski (The Veritas Codex series) discusses imposter syndrome and how writers can avoid it.
18:36 Interview with Emily Carpenter
36: 35 Parting Words
WriterCon Alaskan Cruise: We have worked double-hard to find something beautiful but affordable. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and go see glaciers. It’s May 31-June 7 leaving from Seattle. For more info, please visit our website.
My novel, Challengers of the Dust, has been released. This is set in 1935 Dust Bowl Oklahoma. Two young men are forced to undertake an impossible mission—find a local bigwig’s wayward daughter—which sends them on a cross-country journey during which they meet many Depression-era people, including the famous or soon-to-be famous. A change of pace for me, but I hope a lot of fun and a good read, especially for those interested in the Great Depression, WWII era, the period that literally transformed America. In a good way.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast, I.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Would say be patient with your process and the book
you're writing and with your career.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
of the want ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Thank you, Jesse or Rich and hey they're writers. Thanks
for joining us today. Well, first of all, we have
some news because the Oklahoma Book Awards have come out
and my book Justice for All was nominated. But that's
not even the biggest news. The news is the did
I count right? Laura? I think you served as editor
(00:54):
on like half the books that are nominated. There's a
very appropriate thanks, Jesse. I mean there's mine, there's Marty's book.
Marty was on the podcast a few months ago. At
first I was afraid and Brody sin she's been on
(01:16):
the podcast to my Child.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Or My Child. I'm so proud of her. That's for
a debut novel to come out. And that's another another
finalist for Admission Press. And yes, I worked with her
very closely on that one, so.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And there are three other people nominated who are at
writer Con last year. So yeah, I'm going to take
credit for all the success.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
So it doesn't hit quite as does it hit quite
the same as having one of my own books as
a finalist. But this, this is a this is pretty good.
I'm pretty happy about this.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
And you can for people without having to worry about
your acceptance speech.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
That's that's exactly that's exactly right. And I'm telling myself
that helping others is just as good as getting those
books out there myself, because you know, we all have
limited time and I can't edit everything and write everything
and do everything.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Jesse, you should be taking credit too, because you record
all the sessions at writer Cons and make them available.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
All, well for our price afterwards. So you know, maybe
that was the key. They listened to all your recordings
and you know now they're nominated for a big award. Yeah,
it's all thanks to me. That's what I'm taking. That's
the right attitude. Our interview today is with Emily Carpenter,
who is a former actor, producer, screenwriter, behind the scenes
(02:44):
soap opera assistant. She's also the author of best selling
novels Burying the Honeysuckle Girls and the Weight of Lies.
And she has a new novel coming out, really interesting
stuff and a great read. It's called Gothic Town. We'll
talk to her about all that and much more, but
(03:05):
first the news news story number one. It looks like
(03:25):
there's been there that we're hammering in another nail into
the coffin of mass market paperbacks. Just to explain what
everybody listening probably already understands. When I say mass market paperbacks,
I'm talking about the little things.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Do I have any here.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Jesse saying, don't turn away from the microphone.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Bill, Well, if you are going to turn away, don't
also brush the microphone while you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Like this, I'm very fond of mass market paperback. My
first three books were mass market paperbacks. Of course, that
was back in the early nineties. Nowadays we go more
for trade paperbacks, which are a larger usually five and
a half by eight and a half size. Anyway, I remember,
you know, going to the grocery store or wherever and
(04:13):
buying a mass market paperback for a quarter, which seemed
like a big deal. The boy have I dated myself now? Anyway?
According to Sarkana, BookScan. Mass market paperbacks are now ready
for this three percent of overall print sales. That's not
even including ebooks, that's just a print sale. I bet
(04:34):
when I was started writing, it was sixty seventy percent
and now it's three. Mass Market paperback sales fell last
year to by over nineteen percent, and that's pretty dramatic.
Reader Link, which is a primary distributor to places like Walmart,
Walmart and Kroger, has said that they're just going to
(04:56):
stop carrying them at the end of this calendar year.
Of course, where have those former mass market paperback sales gone.
They've gone to digital books, ebooks, and more likely to
be acquired by subscription services like Kindel Unlimited than they
are at your local drug store. Laura, is this market
(05:18):
shift based on the preferences of readers or the desire
of corporations to make money or something else?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I just think it's more complicated than that. I think
our publishing industry has changed radically since those mass market paperbacks.
That used to be the way to deliver books cheaply
to as many readers as possible, and that's not the
(05:48):
model anymore. That's no longer the way to get books
as cheaply as possible into the hands of as many
readers as possible. So it's it's a bigger change than that.
So both of those things really. Of course, book publishers
want to make more money, but our reading preferences have
shifted as well, So I think all of that comes
(06:09):
together to explain what's going on there. I do miss them.
I always wanted to see one of my books as
a mass market paperback, but I think I think I'm
stuck with trade and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I'm probably okay without it. I mean, I remember when
mass market some books would just be mass market paperbacks,
like all those Gold Medal crime novels of the fifty
or science fiction in the early days, because New York
thought it was just a handful of nerds reading Kurt Vonnegut,
for Pete's sake, his first books were published, even The
(06:45):
Sirens of Titan, which I think is one of the
best books I ever written, originally a paperback, mass market paperback.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Well, I grew up singing the Beatles song paperback writer,
and that's that's always what I had in mind when
I was singing that singing that I wanted to be
a paperback writer, that's exactly what I was envisioning.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, Jesse, what do you think about all this?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think it's just a natural extension of ebooks
being the fastest way to get a book out to
its audience. And honestly, as someone who like had difficulty
reading paperback the paper because they're so small, like the
Texas so small, now that I have a kindle and
can make the fun bigger, like, I always want to
read it in that way, but I still want to
make sure the author gets something for it. So if
(07:28):
ebook ebooks is a much easier way to get a
book out there than you know, a mass paperback, So
I think this is just a natural extension of let's
save those trees and use that paper for you.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Yeah, also a good point.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I think one of the biggest trends last year we
saw this huge growth in graphic novels we'll call them
for one of the you know, big comic books, basically
because American pilatures saw how well Japanese manga we're doing,
and so now DC has, for instance, it's compact comics,
uh switch is basically comic books, but in that saying hand,
(08:05):
you know, palm size format.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
We saw a bunch of those in the bookstore in
New York City.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah that was fun. Yeah we did all right. Onto
news story number two, which is either going to warm
your heart or make you if you're trying to sell
a book, make you infuriated with these stupid dogs. But anyway,
here's the headline, Senior Yorkie Dog and yes that's an
online identity. Senior Yorkie Dog scores a dream publishing deal
(08:37):
based upon his social media stardom. Yes this is an
actual Actually there's more than one dog. So you know,
some of us waited for years to get a book deal,
but these guys got it a lot more quickly because
they are major social media in should I say dogfluencers
is that a word? Go with dog fluencers on TikTok.
(09:03):
And they're bringing out a new line of novels from
Kensington featuring and purporting to have been written by some
social media famous dogs like Senior Yorkie Dog and he's
a really cute Yorkshire Terrier. But there are others. There's
(09:24):
Tatum and Ducky who's also a Yorkie and these they're
called the Dog Agency Novels. It's a loose series of
books inspired by these canine social media stars in books
purportedly written by them. Although I don't know. I'm a
little suspicious. Maybe I'm just like that, But maybe it's
(09:48):
just me a dog called Yuki, no a dog called
Ducky who's a YORKI Did I say that right that day? Yeah,
it's a romance novel. It's a romance story. It could
have been put on the Hallmark channel. Laura, who's reading
these books?
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I don't think I'm the intended audience, don't. I don't
really know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
And is it frustrating? Given how long you and I
both were, well, in my case, putting manuscripts in the mail,
trying to get my first book published, and now some
dogs doing it? How do you feel about so?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Okay? So is there frustration?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yes, because a lot of it is based on just
social media and popularity, I suppose getting a lot of attention.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
But let me go ahead, and let me go ahead
pull the curtain back on the Lizard of Oz. Here uh,
spoiler alert, there's going to be an actual human writing
that book. So somebody, somebody got very is getting very
fortunate from this.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
There's actually a host of somebody's apparently, which includes some
well known genre writers like Micah Stone and Amanda K.
Morgan and others have ghosted books for the dogs, and
they're getting good reviews. I mean, basically, the formulas put
the dog in some heartwarming situation and dog lovers are
(11:25):
gonna sign up for it. I guess, Jesse, would you
read a book purportedly written by a dog?
Speaker 4 (11:34):
No, we're just the audience.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
We're not the audience for this. And this is one
of the things where like, sure have have the dog
write a book, the people who are gonna buy this
book weren't gonna be the people who were gonna buy
necessarily your book. So like taking away from exactly, also,
I just listen. I follow animals on social media. It's delightful,
but I don't. I don't want to pretend that they're
(12:01):
writing a book. I don't. At a certain point, I'm like, okay,
at least there.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I think I've told this story before. But I was
once at a conference with Fabio, you know, the Romance
cover novel, because at that time he was purportedly the
author of a series of the books, which he didn't
even I can tell you having seen it. He didn't
even pretend that he wrote the books or even knew
what they were about. He just an autographed the books.
(12:30):
He was really a great guy. But of course he
wasn't a dog, so.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
He was a man.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Jesse, what if it's a dog in a Star Trek uniform,
do you buy the book then.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
If he's writing about if he or she is writing
about his time in Starfleet in the future we have
universal translators where dogs can speak.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
There we go. That is very specific.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
But there was a yes, the memoirs of Spot, Yeah,
which is actually a cat, not a dog, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I would happily read that too. Apparently he was quite
the actor. So Brettzmayer was not a fan of the
multiple cat actors they had. Oh yeah, apparently it was terrible.
Like every I think they had like three or four
different Spots and they were all just would not do
what they're supposed to do because they're cats.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Because they were super spicy, weren't they.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, So I would definitely read I definitely read the
biography of those Spot actors. That'd be hilarious.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
How long do you think it'll be? But before James
Patterson releases his series already.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It's probably already in the pipeline.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
He'll be six next month. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
James Parrison and Pet, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
You've written by the Pets.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
By the pet who also has a ghost writing pet.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
And on that note will segue to Craft's Corner. Today,
we have a few words from Betsy Koulikowski, who has
been on the podcast many times. She's speaking on impostors syndrome,
which many people and I suspect many, if not most
writers suffer from at one time or another, but not Betsy.
(14:19):
She's got seven books out now in her Veritas Codex series,
Go Asy, and an eighth coming out later this year.
So take it away, Betsy Craft Corner, The Writer.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Con Family author Betsy Kolakowski here with today's Craft Corner
on imposter syndrome. Like many of you, I have struggled
with imposter syndrome for years, and I let the feelings
of self doubt interfere with my ability to become the
author I was always meant to be. So today we're
going to talk about it. So, first of all, what
is imposter syndrome. Well, it's the snaggy little voice that
(14:56):
says you're not good enough, you don't belong where you are.
You're only there because you've got lucky or you're a fraud.
And the truth is that many writers have felt this
at some point in their careers. And the key is
you can't let it hold you back. Those feelings are
a perception that are your unreliable narrator. Imposter syndrome is
(15:17):
not a reflection of your abilities, but it's a psychological
hurdle to overcome, and it happens when you are pushing
yourself outside of your comfort zone. John Azarov said that
your comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there,
so you got to get out of it. But how
do you do that when imposter syndrome is standing in
(15:37):
the way. Well, there's a couple of tips for you.
First of all, don't compare yourself to others. You may
see another author who is in the spotlight and they're
having success, and you think, I want that, I want
to be I want to be like them, and you
really need to focus on just being yourself, work on
your craft, hone your skills, and become the writer that
(15:58):
you are meant to be the successful. The other thing
is you have to separate your identity from the writing
just because you have a good writing day doesn't make
you a good writer. And you can have a bad
review or get a rejection on a manuscript, and that
doesn't mean that you're a bad writer. So you've got
to put those two things aside and know that they're separate.
Your success will happen when it's meant to happen. The
(16:21):
other thing is, remember you're not alone. You know we
talk it writer con about you found your tribe. Well,
here we are. You're not alone. There are other writers
out there and just like you, we're having our doubts
and our struggles and all of our setbacks, but we're
not alone. We're all in it together. So you know,
find your tribe. The other thing is you want to
(16:42):
visualize your success. And this is something that Olympic athletes
do all the time. You might see them on the
sidelines before they get ready to perform their routines, just
visually going through what it looks like, letting their muscles
tense and plex so that they know what it feels like.
And they find their success through knowing the sas and
our processes tend to change and fluctuate, but just knowing
(17:05):
that you've got this and going through that routine and
visualizing what success looks like for you is one of
the best ways to overcome imposter syndrome. The thing to
keep in mind is that it's not about perfection. You're
not going to have a perfect first manuscript, maybe not
even a second manuscript or a third manuscript or tenth manuscript.
But that's what editors are for. So it's not about perfection.
(17:27):
It's about progress. You're going to get better with every
book that you write. I promise you it'll happen. Overcoming
imposter syndrome won't happen overnight, and for some people it
never happen. Some people struggle with it forever. But remember
you're a writer because you write, and the world needs
your unique gift. They need to hear your voice, they
need your perspective. So keep going and trust the process.
(17:51):
We all know that imposter syndrome is a sign that
you're pushing yourself to grow and it's something to be
proud of. And I always focus on what Bill says,
you can not fail if you refuse to quit, So
keep writing.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Thank you so much, Betsy. Now let's talk to Emily Carpenter.
Emily Carpenter, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
I'm glad to have you. Okay, traditional first question, If
you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I would say, be patient with your process and the
book you're writing, and with your career.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, so you've been through a few careers, as it happens,
before you got here, right because you started in show business,
you were acting and directing, doing some writing. I think
talk about the little bit.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I started off as a a kid and a teenager
and a college age person doing theater, and I really
wanted to be an actress. I got married very young.
My husband and I moved to New York and I
got a job with the CBS soap operas Guiding Light
as the World Turns. And I wasn't acting. I was
(19:23):
on the other side. I was reading scripts. So that
was always a part of storytelling what I loved. So
it's definitely informed my writing. It just kind of was
a different sort of job in the storytelling genre.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Very different. I would think, did you enjoy that work?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Oh? I loved it. I loved it. I grew up
in a very strict household with strict around the rules
of television. I was not allowed to watch soap operas.
So the first thing I did when I got the
job picked up the phone and I was like, Mom,
I'm working for two soap operas, and she just laughed
(20:08):
and yeah, but I loved it.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Maybe that was her secret strategy or something. Maybe maybe
just steered your My dad wouldn't permit comic books, and
now I have several thousands.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So seeing me, yeah, it could be reverse psychology.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, well, my undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance,
so we are we are kindred spirits.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I think, Oh, listen, I would have majored in theater
if I could sing. I can dance, not sing.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Nice, excellent.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So how did you segue from performing arts to the
relatively quieter world of books.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, what I ended up after my stint in New York.
I really thought, you know, instead of acting, I'd really
like to write. But what I thought I wanted to
do was write movies. As it turns out, that's a
really difficult business to break into, and so I sort
of pivoted and I thought this might actually just it
(21:17):
was just sort of an expedient decision.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
This might be an.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Easier way to tell a story and to still be
able to write. And yeah, it wasn't easy, but it
was a little more accessible. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So were you surprised then when your book was accepted
and then sold really well?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You know, Yeah, that's such an interesting question because in
a way I.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Were maybe just relieved.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, it was both. I think it is a tough
business to get into, but by the time I went
through the whole thing of writing the book and getting
the agent and then going on submission, by that time
I did feel like I kind of earned my strikes,
you know. I was like, Yeah, I think I think
(22:09):
I'm okay at this. I think I can write pretty well,
and I think I've got a great book. So I
was surprised and relieved.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, Well, tell us about this new book which just
has been released and has terrific reviews. This book hovering
over my shoulder, Gothic town.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Tell us about that, Yes, hovering like a you know, vulture.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Looming.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. I got the idea for this book back in
twenty seventeen. I was reading some articles about small cities
in the US that were sort of putting feelers out
for people to move to their towns. Like Topeka, Kansas,
and I think there was a town in South Dakota
(22:59):
really trying to kind of give their economies a boost,
and I just thought, you know, that's interesting, and then
I kind of had this idea rumbling in my brain.
And then I read an article a few years later
about a medieval village in Italy that was offering villas
(23:20):
for one euro and I was like, well, obviously that
town is full of vampires and they need new blood.
Mine immediately went, you know, to dark plate says, and
I just thought, you know, I don't know anything about Italy,
but I can absolutely sort of turn this into a
(23:43):
Southern Gothic story.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So that was kind of the origins of that.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, congratulations, it sounds terrific.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
And you seem to like books that are poor or
maybe horror adjacent, but blended elements of other genres as well.
Do you think that's a fair assessment.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I've written five books before this, and they've all sort
of they're all Southern, and they're all sort of suspense.
Some lean a little more towards thriller, they have a
little more action, but they're all sort of that slow
burned suspense, and I think, you know a lot of
them do have that horror element. This Gothic Town really
(24:28):
was the first has been the first book where I
had an editor say to me, let's lean into those
horror elements. And I was like, I'm ready.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
Let's go. It's like Stephen King, miss thing, Yes.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Terrific you just mentioned your editor. I know you have
publicly praised your agent. I know this because I read
it on your website today, so it must be true.
And of course, for a lot of the people listening
to this podcast, getting an agent is like the dream.
Can you describe how you went about it?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, So I'm actually uh with my second agent. My
first agent was uh with me for we were together
for eight years. And then I actually got another agent,
and each situation was very different. The first one was
just cool, you know, querying with this first book, and
(25:29):
it was just you know, being.
Speaker 7 (25:30):
Picked out of the slash pile.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I actually had an appointment with her at a conference.
Speaker 7 (25:36):
And the second agent.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
That I got in twenty twenty one, she was you know,
I had already written some books and so I had
material at a track record. But still it you know,
it's tough out there. It's a it's a very competitive business.
And yeah, so I was surprised. I just thought I
(26:00):
was going to snap my fingers and you know, find
somebody holds in it.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
But you made it work in the end, which is
all that matters.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Yeah, let's talk about your writing process. How do you
approach a new project. Do you like to outline or
do you work for notes or are you just a pantherer?
How do you come at it?
Speaker 7 (26:24):
I have a bit of a combination.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I'm very careful to not start writing until I have
thoroughly sort of cooked the idea in my brain and
I feel like that it.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
Has enough.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Almost visual interest to keep having to have some really
cool stet pieces. And then also I do a very
basic I actually use a screenplay, the sid Field screenplay
outline that is the basic three X structure, and I
do have all of that sort of charted out for myself,
(27:01):
just to make sure it's a book and not just
an idea. Yes, yeah, And then I have a like
a little kind of superstitious thing about having the right
character ideas, Like I'm not going to start writing till
I know everybody's name, and I feel really like I
know who they are and they have the right name.
(27:21):
And then yeah, because once I sit down and write.
Speaker 7 (27:24):
I do.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I followed the outline, but it's like it's like a
high high wire act. You know, I'm going, I'm I'm
doing two thousand words a day, seven days a week.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
It's a momentum thing. So I just want to.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Make sure everything's in place before I step out on that.
Speaker 7 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
That sounds like a planner to me. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
How about how about your daily writing life?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (27:53):
What does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 7 (27:58):
I like to write in the morning.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I feel like I'm fresher, and especially the older I get,
I'm like ready for bet at eight thirty six. Ye,
so yeah, right, especially you know, if I'm drafting, I
want to be at my desk at like no later
than nine. And when i'm drafting a new book, two
(28:20):
thousand words or more that's my goal. And if I'm
on a roll, I keep going. But you know what,
there's when I'm done. I'm done, and I don't write
for a few weeks, and I can go as long
as a month without writing. I'm always thinking of ideas,
maybe jotting down you know, new pitches, and then editing,
(28:44):
like I'm editing right now and I'm a little less
disciplined about that, but still the morning come out into my.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Literally admire which you said that every time I finish
a book, I think, Okay, I'm just going to take
a break break, a vacation time, and that lasts about
three days, and then I start getting really antsy and
start making notes, and pretty soon I'm on the next book.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
I do.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I do feel like there's a bit of a for
people who are born to write. I think if you're
not writing, you have to be careful that.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I think you get very restless. I think when it's
when it's in your blood, you just get very restless.
Any superstitions you mentioned, the superstition of needing all your
character names, anything like that with your writing process. Do
you need to have your cat nearby, or special coffee
(29:41):
or tea? No, anything like that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
No, I write in different loc No, not really. It
really is more about the structure of hitting word goals,
because I think I can just do the thing, get
the words down. Eventually, I know I'm to finish, you know,
eighty to ninety thousand words and I'm going to have
(30:04):
a book. I'm going to have that you know, sandbox
full of sand that eventually I can build a castle.
Speaker 7 (30:10):
So no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I don't have any really like special copies or candles
or really.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I get asked a lot if I listened to certain
music when I write, and I think no, because then
I would just start singing along with the songs and
I would not.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Be able to write anymore, right, that would Sometime I've
had like soundtracks that I've written to that have helped
me a ton, but then the next time, yeah, yeah, yeah,
the next time I went back to them, I was like,
it didn't work for the next book. It's all very
sort of what you discover. I think each book has
(30:49):
its own process.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
I should say that I do believe.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Finitely Well, speaking of discovery, what are some things that
you've learned in you're writing journey.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I have learned to trust my process that sometimes I
would like to skip from the beginning to the end.
I would I would like to have to make the
discoveries learn about the character quicker. But unfortunately, or fortunately,
(31:26):
you know, the process is I do not know exactly
who my characters are or what this story really is
about until I'm done writing it, and I can't. There
are no shortcuts. I just have to go through that
first edit, that second, that painful second edit that you know,
a little less painful third edit. I know some people
(31:49):
are very careful writers, but I'm not that way. So
it does take me a lot of edits to get
to where I want to be. And then you know,
sometimes then it's, you know, the tenth at it that
I'm like, oh, that's what this story is about.
Speaker 7 (32:07):
That's what I would trying to get.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
But I want a shortcut and there is no shortcut,
and so I just every time I just say, just
you know, calm down, trust the process. It's going to come.
And the other thing is ideas. I think I have
learned that for me, there's always going to be plenty
(32:30):
of ideas, and so to just not be impatient with
that and just let them simmer until it's time to
go back to them.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Now there's been a break between your previous book, a
break of years and this current one. Is that because
you were waiting for the idea or did you revise
it four hundred and twelve times or what happened?
Speaker 7 (32:59):
No, actually, it was.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I actually got dropped by my first publisher, which is look,
it happens to almost all writers at some point, and
I think, like, the more honest we are about that
this process, the business is not reliable in that way that.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
A business and we are not really business people.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, correct, and but that it happens, and so yeah,
So I was dropped by my publisher, and during that
process was actually when I ended up getting a new agent.
But then I also had a book with my new
agent that we sent out that just wasn't getting any traction,
(33:50):
and really quickly I was like, all right, let's pull
that back in. That is not going to be the
book that that I want to come out of the
gate with. And I was working on Gothic Town at
the time, so I thought, you know, I've got this
other book that I'm excited about.
Speaker 7 (34:07):
Let's see if that works. And it did, so, yeah,
it was. That was a big reason.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
That's such a great title too. Maybe it's just I mean,
I got my masters in Victorian literature, which is the
same time period, but still I love Gothic novels. How'd
you come up with that title?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's a great I don't remember exactly it just appear.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
In my.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Question asked, I do like, what do you what is
the the grammar term of words two words put together
to make one. I do like those kind of words,
and and so I I do remember I had a
(34:56):
friend once say something about to me about the mayor
of crazy Town, and you know.
Speaker 7 (35:04):
We laughed about that.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
So that might have been where I got it from.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, are you working on something now? What can we
look forward from you next?
Speaker 7 (35:15):
So six? I have another.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Four years next year.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, that's the book I'm editing now. Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's called A Spell for Saints and Centers and it's
also kind of very Gothic key. It's about a psychic
who works in Savannah and she has inherited her grandmother's
psychic business like palm reading and or reading.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
She ends up.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Doing a session with a bride to be who is
the daughter of one of the wealthiest men and family
in Savannah, and she does this really incredible reading, really
hits the nail on the head, and she gets drawn
into this family sort of decadent lifestyle and all their
(36:09):
secrets and yeah, shenanigans in sue. Yeah, So that's coming
out next March.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Sounds so good. I'm going to go I'm going to
go follow you on like Amazon and so I'll get
noticed when those next when that next book comes out.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You know, and then maybe we get you back on
the podcast to talk about that one.
Speaker 7 (36:34):
Would love to. I'd love to.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Emily, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
Thank you all for having me. This has been a
lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just a couple of parting words. Let me say again,
it is not too lying, too late to sign up
for the writer Con Cruise, but we're kind of getting there.
So take a look at the website writercon dot com
and see if this is a good fit for you.
We have worked double time to get good prices for
(37:18):
you on this Alaskan cruise that leaves on May thirty
first from Seattle. We're going to have a great time.
We're going to do more than twenty hours of class
and work, some of a big group, some of a
small group, and all of it when the book is
at sea. So we'll not interfere with your site. Seeing
(37:42):
sign up soon so you get advantage of the deep
discount that we negotiated. Okay, writer Con Cruise, I'll put
a link in the show notes, and I mean, how
can I not remind you that I've got a new
book out, and that's Challengers of the Dust, which has
just been least. It's a historical novels at nineteen thirty
(38:03):
five dust Bowl, Oklahoma. My mother has been trying to
get me to write a book set in the in
the World War two era for roughly fifty years, so
now I've come close. It's two man on. You know,
Steinbeck sent his OKI's west, so I sent my east
(38:25):
on this forced mission to find a local big wigs daughter.
And they encounter all kinds of people, rail writers and
hobo camps and rainmakers, and also a lot of people
who either are already famous or soon will be. It's
a lot of fun and I'd appreciate it if you
(38:47):
check that out. It's Challengers and the Dust. All right,
until next time, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail
if you refuse to quit. See you next time.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
And
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Span and my fa
This week on the writer Con podcast, I.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Would say be patient with your process and the book
you're writing and with your career.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
of the want ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Thank you, Jesse or Rich and hey they're writers. Thanks
for joining us today. Well, first of all, we have
some news because the Oklahoma Book Awards have come out
and my book Justice for All was nominated. But that's
not even the biggest news. The news is the did
I count right? Laura? I think you served as editor
(00:54):
on like half the books that are nominated. There's a
very appropriate thanks, Jesse. I mean there's mine, there's Marty's book.
Marty was on the podcast a few months ago. At
first I was afraid and Brody sin she's been on
(01:16):
the podcast to my Child.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Or My Child. I'm so proud of her. That's for
a debut novel to come out. And that's another another
finalist for Admission Press. And yes, I worked with her
very closely on that one, so.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And there are three other people nominated who are at
writer Con last year. So yeah, I'm going to take
credit for all the success.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
So it doesn't hit quite as does it hit quite
the same as having one of my own books as
a finalist. But this, this is a this is pretty good.
I'm pretty happy about this.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
And you can for people without having to worry about
your acceptance speech.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
That's that's exactly that's exactly right. And I'm telling myself
that helping others is just as good as getting those
books out there myself, because you know, we all have
limited time and I can't edit everything and write everything
and do everything.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Jesse, you should be taking credit too, because you record
all the sessions at writer Cons and make them available.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
All, well for our price afterwards. So you know, maybe
that was the key. They listened to all your recordings
and you know now they're nominated for a big award. Yeah,
it's all thanks to me. That's what I'm taking. That's
the right attitude. Our interview today is with Emily Carpenter,
who is a former actor, producer, screenwriter, behind the scenes
(02:44):
soap opera assistant. She's also the author of best selling
novels Burying the Honeysuckle Girls and the Weight of Lies.
And she has a new novel coming out, really interesting
stuff and a great read. It's called Gothic Town. We'll
talk to her about all that and much more, but
(03:05):
first the news news story number one. It looks like
(03:25):
there's been there that we're hammering in another nail into
the coffin of mass market paperbacks. Just to explain what
everybody listening probably already understands. When I say mass market paperbacks,
I'm talking about the little things.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Do I have any here.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Jesse saying, don't turn away from the microphone.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Bill, Well, if you are going to turn away, don't
also brush the microphone while you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Like this, I'm very fond of mass market paperback. My
first three books were mass market paperbacks. Of course, that
was back in the early nineties. Nowadays we go more
for trade paperbacks, which are a larger usually five and
a half by eight and a half size. Anyway, I remember,
you know, going to the grocery store or wherever and
(04:13):
buying a mass market paperback for a quarter, which seemed
like a big deal. The boy have I dated myself now? Anyway?
According to Sarkana, BookScan. Mass market paperbacks are now ready
for this three percent of overall print sales. That's not
even including ebooks, that's just a print sale. I bet
(04:34):
when I was started writing, it was sixty seventy percent
and now it's three. Mass Market paperback sales fell last
year to by over nineteen percent, and that's pretty dramatic.
Reader Link, which is a primary distributor to places like Walmart,
Walmart and Kroger, has said that they're just going to
(04:56):
stop carrying them at the end of this calendar year.
Of course, where have those former mass market paperback sales gone.
They've gone to digital books, ebooks, and more likely to
be acquired by subscription services like Kindel Unlimited than they
are at your local drug store. Laura, is this market
(05:18):
shift based on the preferences of readers or the desire
of corporations to make money or something else?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I just think it's more complicated than that. I think
our publishing industry has changed radically since those mass market paperbacks.
That used to be the way to deliver books cheaply
to as many readers as possible, and that's not the
(05:48):
model anymore. That's no longer the way to get books
as cheaply as possible into the hands of as many
readers as possible. So it's it's a bigger change than that.
So both of those things really. Of course, book publishers
want to make more money, but our reading preferences have
shifted as well, So I think all of that comes
(06:09):
together to explain what's going on there. I do miss them.
I always wanted to see one of my books as
a mass market paperback, but I think I think I'm
stuck with trade and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I'm probably okay without it. I mean, I remember when
mass market some books would just be mass market paperbacks,
like all those Gold Medal crime novels of the fifty
or science fiction in the early days, because New York
thought it was just a handful of nerds reading Kurt Vonnegut,
for Pete's sake, his first books were published, even The
(06:45):
Sirens of Titan, which I think is one of the
best books I ever written, originally a paperback, mass market paperback.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Well, I grew up singing the Beatles song paperback writer,
and that's that's always what I had in mind when
I was singing that singing that I wanted to be
a paperback writer, that's exactly what I was envisioning.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, Jesse, what do you think about all this?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think it's just a natural extension of ebooks
being the fastest way to get a book out to
its audience. And honestly, as someone who like had difficulty
reading paperback the paper because they're so small, like the
Texas so small, now that I have a kindle and
can make the fun bigger, like, I always want to
read it in that way, but I still want to
make sure the author gets something for it. So if
(07:28):
ebook ebooks is a much easier way to get a
book out there than you know, a mass paperback, So
I think this is just a natural extension of let's
save those trees and use that paper for you.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Yeah, also a good point.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I think one of the biggest trends last year we
saw this huge growth in graphic novels we'll call them
for one of the you know, big comic books, basically
because American pilatures saw how well Japanese manga we're doing,
and so now DC has, for instance, it's compact comics,
uh switch is basically comic books, but in that saying hand,
(08:05):
you know, palm size format.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
We saw a bunch of those in the bookstore in
New York City.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah that was fun. Yeah we did all right. Onto
news story number two, which is either going to warm
your heart or make you if you're trying to sell
a book, make you infuriated with these stupid dogs. But anyway,
here's the headline, Senior Yorkie Dog and yes that's an
online identity. Senior Yorkie Dog scores a dream publishing deal
(08:37):
based upon his social media stardom. Yes this is an
actual Actually there's more than one dog. So you know,
some of us waited for years to get a book deal,
but these guys got it a lot more quickly because
they are major social media in should I say dogfluencers
is that a word? Go with dog fluencers on TikTok.
(09:03):
And they're bringing out a new line of novels from
Kensington featuring and purporting to have been written by some
social media famous dogs like Senior Yorkie Dog and he's
a really cute Yorkshire Terrier. But there are others. There's
(09:24):
Tatum and Ducky who's also a Yorkie and these they're
called the Dog Agency Novels. It's a loose series of
books inspired by these canine social media stars in books
purportedly written by them. Although I don't know. I'm a
little suspicious. Maybe I'm just like that, But maybe it's
(09:48):
just me a dog called Yuki, no a dog called
Ducky who's a YORKI Did I say that right that day? Yeah,
it's a romance novel. It's a romance story. It could
have been put on the Hallmark channel. Laura, who's reading
these books?
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I don't think I'm the intended audience, don't. I don't
really know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
And is it frustrating? Given how long you and I
both were, well, in my case, putting manuscripts in the mail,
trying to get my first book published, and now some
dogs doing it? How do you feel about so?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Okay? So is there frustration?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yes, because a lot of it is based on just
social media and popularity, I suppose getting a lot of attention.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
But let me go ahead, and let me go ahead
pull the curtain back on the Lizard of Oz. Here uh,
spoiler alert, there's going to be an actual human writing
that book. So somebody, somebody got very is getting very
fortunate from this.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
There's actually a host of somebody's apparently, which includes some
well known genre writers like Micah Stone and Amanda K.
Morgan and others have ghosted books for the dogs, and
they're getting good reviews. I mean, basically, the formulas put
the dog in some heartwarming situation and dog lovers are
(11:25):
gonna sign up for it. I guess, Jesse, would you
read a book purportedly written by a dog?
Speaker 4 (11:34):
No, we're just the audience.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
We're not the audience for this. And this is one
of the things where like, sure have have the dog
write a book, the people who are gonna buy this
book weren't gonna be the people who were gonna buy
necessarily your book. So like taking away from exactly, also,
I just listen. I follow animals on social media. It's delightful,
but I don't. I don't want to pretend that they're
(12:01):
writing a book. I don't. At a certain point, I'm like, okay,
at least there.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I think I've told this story before. But I was
once at a conference with Fabio, you know, the Romance
cover novel, because at that time he was purportedly the
author of a series of the books, which he didn't
even I can tell you having seen it. He didn't
even pretend that he wrote the books or even knew
what they were about. He just an autographed the books.
(12:30):
He was really a great guy. But of course he
wasn't a dog, so.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
He was a man.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Jesse, what if it's a dog in a Star Trek uniform,
do you buy the book then.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
If he's writing about if he or she is writing
about his time in Starfleet in the future we have
universal translators where dogs can speak.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
There we go. That is very specific.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
But there was a yes, the memoirs of Spot, Yeah,
which is actually a cat, not a dog, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I would happily read that too. Apparently he was quite
the actor. So Brettzmayer was not a fan of the
multiple cat actors they had. Oh yeah, apparently it was terrible.
Like every I think they had like three or four
different Spots and they were all just would not do
what they're supposed to do because they're cats.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Because they were super spicy, weren't they.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, So I would definitely read I definitely read the
biography of those Spot actors. That'd be hilarious.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
How long do you think it'll be? But before James
Patterson releases his series already.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It's probably already in the pipeline.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
He'll be six next month. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
James Parrison and Pet, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
You've written by the Pets.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
By the pet who also has a ghost writing pet.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
And on that note will segue to Craft's Corner. Today,
we have a few words from Betsy Koulikowski, who has
been on the podcast many times. She's speaking on impostors syndrome,
which many people and I suspect many, if not most
writers suffer from at one time or another, but not Betsy.
(14:19):
She's got seven books out now in her Veritas Codex series,
Go Asy, and an eighth coming out later this year.
So take it away, Betsy Craft Corner, The Writer.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Con Family author Betsy Kolakowski here with today's Craft Corner
on imposter syndrome. Like many of you, I have struggled
with imposter syndrome for years, and I let the feelings
of self doubt interfere with my ability to become the
author I was always meant to be. So today we're
going to talk about it. So, first of all, what
is imposter syndrome. Well, it's the snaggy little voice that
(14:56):
says you're not good enough, you don't belong where you are.
You're only there because you've got lucky or you're a fraud.
And the truth is that many writers have felt this
at some point in their careers. And the key is
you can't let it hold you back. Those feelings are
a perception that are your unreliable narrator. Imposter syndrome is
(15:17):
not a reflection of your abilities, but it's a psychological
hurdle to overcome, and it happens when you are pushing
yourself outside of your comfort zone. John Azarov said that
your comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there,
so you got to get out of it. But how
do you do that when imposter syndrome is standing in
(15:37):
the way. Well, there's a couple of tips for you.
First of all, don't compare yourself to others. You may
see another author who is in the spotlight and they're
having success, and you think, I want that, I want
to be I want to be like them, and you
really need to focus on just being yourself, work on
your craft, hone your skills, and become the writer that
(15:58):
you are meant to be the successful. The other thing
is you have to separate your identity from the writing
just because you have a good writing day doesn't make
you a good writer. And you can have a bad
review or get a rejection on a manuscript, and that
doesn't mean that you're a bad writer. So you've got
to put those two things aside and know that they're separate.
Your success will happen when it's meant to happen. The
(16:21):
other thing is, remember you're not alone. You know we
talk it writer con about you found your tribe. Well,
here we are. You're not alone. There are other writers
out there and just like you, we're having our doubts
and our struggles and all of our setbacks, but we're
not alone. We're all in it together. So you know,
find your tribe. The other thing is you want to
(16:42):
visualize your success. And this is something that Olympic athletes
do all the time. You might see them on the
sidelines before they get ready to perform their routines, just
visually going through what it looks like, letting their muscles
tense and plex so that they know what it feels like.
And they find their success through knowing the sas and
our processes tend to change and fluctuate, but just knowing
(17:05):
that you've got this and going through that routine and
visualizing what success looks like for you is one of
the best ways to overcome imposter syndrome. The thing to
keep in mind is that it's not about perfection. You're
not going to have a perfect first manuscript, maybe not
even a second manuscript or a third manuscript or tenth manuscript.
But that's what editors are for. So it's not about perfection.
(17:27):
It's about progress. You're going to get better with every
book that you write. I promise you it'll happen. Overcoming
imposter syndrome won't happen overnight, and for some people it
never happen. Some people struggle with it forever. But remember
you're a writer because you write, and the world needs
your unique gift. They need to hear your voice, they
need your perspective. So keep going and trust the process.
(17:51):
We all know that imposter syndrome is a sign that
you're pushing yourself to grow and it's something to be
proud of. And I always focus on what Bill says,
you can not fail if you refuse to quit, So
keep writing.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Thank you so much, Betsy. Now let's talk to Emily Carpenter.
Emily Carpenter, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
I'm glad to have you. Okay, traditional first question, If
you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
it be.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I would say, be patient with your process and the
book you're writing, and with your career.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, so you've been through a few careers, as it happens,
before you got here, right because you started in show business,
you were acting and directing, doing some writing. I think
talk about the little bit.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I started off as a a kid and a teenager
and a college age person doing theater, and I really
wanted to be an actress. I got married very young.
My husband and I moved to New York and I
got a job with the CBS soap operas Guiding Light
as the World Turns. And I wasn't acting. I was
(19:23):
on the other side. I was reading scripts. So that
was always a part of storytelling what I loved. So
it's definitely informed my writing. It just kind of was
a different sort of job in the storytelling genre.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Very different. I would think, did you enjoy that work?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Oh? I loved it. I loved it. I grew up
in a very strict household with strict around the rules
of television. I was not allowed to watch soap operas.
So the first thing I did when I got the
job picked up the phone and I was like, Mom,
I'm working for two soap operas, and she just laughed
(20:08):
and yeah, but I loved it.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Maybe that was her secret strategy or something. Maybe maybe
just steered your My dad wouldn't permit comic books, and
now I have several thousands.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So seeing me, yeah, it could be reverse psychology.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, well, my undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance,
so we are we are kindred spirits.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I think, Oh, listen, I would have majored in theater
if I could sing. I can dance, not sing.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Nice, excellent.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So how did you segue from performing arts to the
relatively quieter world of books.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, what I ended up after my stint in New York.
I really thought, you know, instead of acting, I'd really
like to write. But what I thought I wanted to
do was write movies. As it turns out, that's a
really difficult business to break into, and so I sort
of pivoted and I thought this might actually just it
(21:17):
was just sort of an expedient decision.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
This might be an.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Easier way to tell a story and to still be
able to write. And yeah, it wasn't easy, but it
was a little more accessible. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So were you surprised then when your book was accepted
and then sold really well?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You know, Yeah, that's such an interesting question because in
a way I.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Were maybe just relieved.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, it was both. I think it is a tough
business to get into, but by the time I went
through the whole thing of writing the book and getting
the agent and then going on submission, by that time
I did feel like I kind of earned my strikes,
you know. I was like, Yeah, I think I think
(22:09):
I'm okay at this. I think I can write pretty well,
and I think I've got a great book. So I
was surprised and relieved.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, Well, tell us about this new book which just
has been released and has terrific reviews. This book hovering
over my shoulder, Gothic town.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Tell us about that, Yes, hovering like a you know, vulture.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Looming.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. I got the idea for this book back in
twenty seventeen. I was reading some articles about small cities
in the US that were sort of putting feelers out
for people to move to their towns. Like Topeka, Kansas,
and I think there was a town in South Dakota
(22:59):
really trying to kind of give their economies a boost,
and I just thought, you know, that's interesting, and then
I kind of had this idea rumbling in my brain.
And then I read an article a few years later
about a medieval village in Italy that was offering villas
(23:20):
for one euro and I was like, well, obviously that
town is full of vampires and they need new blood.
Mine immediately went, you know, to dark plate says, and
I just thought, you know, I don't know anything about Italy,
but I can absolutely sort of turn this into a
(23:43):
Southern Gothic story.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So that was kind of the origins of that.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, congratulations, it sounds terrific.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
And you seem to like books that are poor or
maybe horror adjacent, but blended elements of other genres as well.
Do you think that's a fair assessment.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I've written five books before this, and they've all sort
of they're all Southern, and they're all sort of suspense.
Some lean a little more towards thriller, they have a
little more action, but they're all sort of that slow
burned suspense, and I think, you know a lot of
them do have that horror element. This Gothic Town really
(24:28):
was the first has been the first book where I
had an editor say to me, let's lean into those
horror elements. And I was like, I'm ready.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
Let's go. It's like Stephen King, miss thing, Yes.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Terrific you just mentioned your editor. I know you have
publicly praised your agent. I know this because I read
it on your website today, so it must be true.
And of course, for a lot of the people listening
to this podcast, getting an agent is like the dream.
Can you describe how you went about it?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, So I'm actually uh with my second agent. My
first agent was uh with me for we were together
for eight years. And then I actually got another agent,
and each situation was very different. The first one was
just cool, you know, querying with this first book, and
(25:29):
it was just you know, being.
Speaker 7 (25:30):
Picked out of the slash pile.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I actually had an appointment with her at a conference.
Speaker 7 (25:36):
And the second agent.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
That I got in twenty twenty one, she was you know,
I had already written some books and so I had
material at a track record. But still it you know,
it's tough out there. It's a it's a very competitive business.
And yeah, so I was surprised. I just thought I
(26:00):
was going to snap my fingers and you know, find
somebody holds in it.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
But you made it work in the end, which is
all that matters.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Yeah, let's talk about your writing process. How do you
approach a new project. Do you like to outline or
do you work for notes or are you just a pantherer?
How do you come at it?
Speaker 7 (26:24):
I have a bit of a combination.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I'm very careful to not start writing until I have
thoroughly sort of cooked the idea in my brain and
I feel like that it.
Speaker 7 (26:36):
Has enough.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Almost visual interest to keep having to have some really
cool stet pieces. And then also I do a very
basic I actually use a screenplay, the sid Field screenplay
outline that is the basic three X structure, and I
do have all of that sort of charted out for myself,
(27:01):
just to make sure it's a book and not just
an idea. Yes, yeah, And then I have a like
a little kind of superstitious thing about having the right
character ideas, Like I'm not going to start writing till
I know everybody's name, and I feel really like I
know who they are and they have the right name.
(27:21):
And then yeah, because once I sit down and write.
Speaker 7 (27:24):
I do.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I followed the outline, but it's like it's like a
high high wire act. You know, I'm going, I'm I'm
doing two thousand words a day, seven days a week.
Speaker 7 (27:38):
It's a momentum thing. So I just want to.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Make sure everything's in place before I step out on that.
Speaker 7 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
That sounds like a planner to me. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
How about how about your daily writing life?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (27:53):
What does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 7 (27:58):
I like to write in the morning.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I feel like I'm fresher, and especially the older I get,
I'm like ready for bet at eight thirty six. Ye,
so yeah, right, especially you know, if I'm drafting, I
want to be at my desk at like no later
than nine. And when i'm drafting a new book, two
(28:20):
thousand words or more that's my goal. And if I'm
on a roll, I keep going. But you know what,
there's when I'm done. I'm done, and I don't write
for a few weeks, and I can go as long
as a month without writing. I'm always thinking of ideas,
maybe jotting down you know, new pitches, and then editing,
(28:44):
like I'm editing right now and I'm a little less
disciplined about that, but still the morning come out into my.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Literally admire which you said that every time I finish
a book, I think, Okay, I'm just going to take
a break break, a vacation time, and that lasts about
three days, and then I start getting really antsy and
start making notes, and pretty soon I'm on the next book.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
I do.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I do feel like there's a bit of a for
people who are born to write. I think if you're
not writing, you have to be careful that.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I think you get very restless. I think when it's
when it's in your blood, you just get very restless.
Any superstitions you mentioned, the superstition of needing all your
character names, anything like that with your writing process. Do
you need to have your cat nearby, or special coffee
(29:41):
or tea? No, anything like that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
No, I write in different loc No, not really. It
really is more about the structure of hitting word goals,
because I think I can just do the thing, get
the words down. Eventually, I know I'm to finish, you know,
eighty to ninety thousand words and I'm going to have
(30:04):
a book. I'm going to have that you know, sandbox
full of sand that eventually I can build a castle.
Speaker 7 (30:10):
So no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I don't have any really like special copies or candles
or really.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I get asked a lot if I listened to certain
music when I write, and I think no, because then
I would just start singing along with the songs and
I would not.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Be able to write anymore, right, that would Sometime I've
had like soundtracks that I've written to that have helped
me a ton, but then the next time, yeah, yeah, yeah,
the next time I went back to them, I was like,
it didn't work for the next book. It's all very
sort of what you discover. I think each book has
(30:49):
its own process.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
I should say that I do believe.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Finitely Well, speaking of discovery, what are some things that
you've learned in you're writing journey.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I have learned to trust my process that sometimes I
would like to skip from the beginning to the end.
I would I would like to have to make the
discoveries learn about the character quicker. But unfortunately, or fortunately,
(31:26):
you know, the process is I do not know exactly
who my characters are or what this story really is
about until I'm done writing it, and I can't. There
are no shortcuts. I just have to go through that
first edit, that second, that painful second edit that you know,
a little less painful third edit. I know some people
(31:49):
are very careful writers, but I'm not that way. So
it does take me a lot of edits to get
to where I want to be. And then you know,
sometimes then it's, you know, the tenth at it that
I'm like, oh, that's what this story is about.
Speaker 7 (32:07):
That's what I would trying to get.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
But I want a shortcut and there is no shortcut,
and so I just every time I just say, just
you know, calm down, trust the process. It's going to come.
And the other thing is ideas. I think I have
learned that for me, there's always going to be plenty
(32:30):
of ideas, and so to just not be impatient with
that and just let them simmer until it's time to
go back to them.
Speaker 7 (32:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Now there's been a break between your previous book, a
break of years and this current one. Is that because
you were waiting for the idea or did you revise
it four hundred and twelve times or what happened?
Speaker 7 (32:59):
No, actually, it was.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I actually got dropped by my first publisher, which is look,
it happens to almost all writers at some point, and
I think, like, the more honest we are about that
this process, the business is not reliable in that way that.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
A business and we are not really business people.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, correct, and but that it happens, and so yeah,
So I was dropped by my publisher, and during that
process was actually when I ended up getting a new agent.
But then I also had a book with my new
agent that we sent out that just wasn't getting any traction,
(33:50):
and really quickly I was like, all right, let's pull
that back in. That is not going to be the
book that that I want to come out of the
gate with. And I was working on Gothic Town at
the time, so I thought, you know, I've got this
other book that I'm excited about.
Speaker 7 (34:07):
Let's see if that works. And it did, so, yeah,
it was. That was a big reason.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
That's such a great title too. Maybe it's just I mean,
I got my masters in Victorian literature, which is the
same time period, but still I love Gothic novels. How'd
you come up with that title?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's a great I don't remember exactly it just appear.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
In my.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Question asked, I do like, what do you what is
the the grammar term of words two words put together
to make one. I do like those kind of words,
and and so I I do remember I had a
(34:56):
friend once say something about to me about the mayor
of crazy Town, and you know.
Speaker 7 (35:04):
We laughed about that.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
So that might have been where I got it from.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, are you working on something now? What can we
look forward from you next?
Speaker 7 (35:15):
So six? I have another.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Four years next year.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, that's the book I'm editing now. Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's called A Spell for Saints and Centers and it's
also kind of very Gothic key. It's about a psychic
who works in Savannah and she has inherited her grandmother's
psychic business like palm reading and or reading.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
She ends up.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Doing a session with a bride to be who is
the daughter of one of the wealthiest men and family
in Savannah, and she does this really incredible reading, really
hits the nail on the head, and she gets drawn
into this family sort of decadent lifestyle and all their
(36:09):
secrets and yeah, shenanigans in sue. Yeah, So that's coming
out next March.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Sounds so good. I'm going to go I'm going to
go follow you on like Amazon and so I'll get
noticed when those next when that next book comes out.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You know, and then maybe we get you back on
the podcast to talk about that one.
Speaker 7 (36:34):
Would love to. I'd love to.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Emily, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
Thank you all for having me. This has been a
lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just a couple of parting words. Let me say again,
it is not too lying, too late to sign up
for the writer Con Cruise, but we're kind of getting there.
So take a look at the website writercon dot com
and see if this is a good fit for you.
We have worked double time to get good prices for
(37:18):
you on this Alaskan cruise that leaves on May thirty
first from Seattle. We're going to have a great time.
We're going to do more than twenty hours of class
and work, some of a big group, some of a
small group, and all of it when the book is
at sea. So we'll not interfere with your site. Seeing
(37:42):
sign up soon so you get advantage of the deep
discount that we negotiated. Okay, writer Con Cruise, I'll put
a link in the show notes, and I mean, how
can I not remind you that I've got a new
book out, and that's Challengers of the Dust, which has
just been least. It's a historical novels at nineteen thirty
(38:03):
five dust Bowl, Oklahoma. My mother has been trying to
get me to write a book set in the in
the World War two era for roughly fifty years, so
now I've come close. It's two man on. You know,
Steinbeck sent his OKI's west, so I sent my east
(38:25):
on this forced mission to find a local big wigs daughter.
And they encounter all kinds of people, rail writers and
hobo camps and rainmakers, and also a lot of people
who either are already famous or soon will be. It's
a lot of fun and I'd appreciate it if you
(38:47):
check that out. It's Challengers and the Dust. All right,
until next time, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail
if you refuse to quit. See you next time.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
And
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Span and my fa
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