March 12, 2025 • 42 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Cynthia Pelayo, the author of a new novel, Vanishing Daughters. She is the Bram Stoker Award–winning author of Forgotten Sisters and other genre-blending novels that incorporate fairy tales, mystery, and horror elements. Esquire called her novel Loteria, one of the "Best Horror Books of 2023."
0:00: Opening Thoughts
Travel recaps, plus a discussion of which wives prefer, diamonds or acrostics.
5:01: News
1) ElevenLabs offers Universal AI-narrated Audiobook Options for Authors
2) Amazon Ends Downloads from Kindle Devices by USB
17:26 Craft Corner
Desire Duffy of Black Chateau and Writers Who Make You discusses how to get endorsements for your books.
22:19 Interview with Cynthia Pelayo
39:34 Parting Words
LDon't forget to register for the WriterCon Cruise. Our reserved room block is running out. Take advantage of the rookm discounts while you can. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and go see the icecaps melt. It’s May 31-June 7 leaving from Seattle. For more info, please visit our website. I’ll leave a link in the show notes. If you have any questions, just email.
Let me also remind you that my novel Challengers of the Dust has just been released. This is set in 1935 Dust Bowl Oklahoma. Two young men are forced to perform an impossible mission—find a local bigwig’s wayward daughter—which sends them on a cross-country journey during which they meet many Depression-era people, including the famous or soon-to-be famous. Change of pace, but I hope a lot of fun and a good read, especially for those interested in the Great Depression, WWII era, the period that literally transformed America. In a good way.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
0:00: Opening Thoughts
Travel recaps, plus a discussion of which wives prefer, diamonds or acrostics.
5:01: News
1) ElevenLabs offers Universal AI-narrated Audiobook Options for Authors
2) Amazon Ends Downloads from Kindle Devices by USB
17:26 Craft Corner
Desire Duffy of Black Chateau and Writers Who Make You discusses how to get endorsements for your books.
22:19 Interview with Cynthia Pelayo
39:34 Parting Words
LDon't forget to register for the WriterCon Cruise. Our reserved room block is running out. Take advantage of the rookm discounts while you can. You’ll get over 20 hours of writing instruction, scheduled when the boat is at sea, not when you’d rather get off and go see the icecaps melt. It’s May 31-June 7 leaving from Seattle. For more info, please visit our website. I’ll leave a link in the show notes. If you have any questions, just email.
Let me also remind you that my novel Challengers of the Dust has just been released. This is set in 1935 Dust Bowl Oklahoma. Two young men are forced to perform an impossible mission—find a local bigwig’s wayward daughter—which sends them on a cross-country journey during which they meet many Depression-era people, including the famous or soon-to-be famous. Change of pace, but I hope a lot of fun and a good read, especially for those interested in the Great Depression, WWII era, the period that literally transformed America. In a good way.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I think we need to just be a little bit
hinder to ourself, so just really enjoy the process.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Your hosts are William.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of the Red Sneaker
books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich and hey, they're writers, thanks for
joining us today. We are all three of us, I
think recently back from big travel expeditions. Laura and I
were in New York recently. And Jesse, you just got
back from the Star Trek.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Cruise, right, that is correct.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Did you have a decent time?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I did have a decent time. I did happen to
catch COVID on the way home. So oh that's been
a fun week.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
Yeah, so sorry.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
That's all right. I got some Pact slot bit on Thursday.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Feeling better now, I will say, the energy to get
ready for this recording took.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
A lot out of me. I'm like, oh, I am
more tired than but we'll talk quickly.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yes, but you're feeling at right now?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh yeah, the cruise was great.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You know, uh, the you know, each cruise has a captain, right,
like the sort of who they think the biggest celebrity.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
It was Kate Mogrew for this year because it was
a voyager and reverse year. And she's always great. She's
just like such an honest, earnest, deep person, Like any
time you get to get to hear it talk is fantastic.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
So more importantly for this podcast, when's she going to
write her book?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I think she was talking about that, so she's working
on it.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Possibly every star on that book on that boat may
be working on a memoir.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
We know there's an audience.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Seriously, the actress who plays you know her on Street
New Worlds, Like she's only twenty five years old. She's
already lived like a full life of doing shows and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, so yeah, impressive. Laura, we of course were on
New York kind of research slash fun visit. What was
your favorite part?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
You know, I hate picking favorites. Okay favorite, Yeah, I
get three, Okay, I could do three. So while you
were in the library doing your research, I went to
the Guggenheim Museum and that was amazing. I had a
really good time there and saw some fantastic artwork and
(02:40):
learned some art history, so that was wonderful. And of
course we we had we had pizza at an old
old history right right that establishment, Yes, that one of
our former podcasts.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Reviews.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Yeah, Thomas invited us and so we got to meet
him in real life, which was fabulous. And then of
course all the shows, that's my third thing, all the
shows that we saw, I'm gonna lump them all together.
I just loved it.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
We had to try to Tiffany's would at least make
the top three. But that's just my own selfish, very fun.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
There's my there's my new acquisition, which for.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Your well you're not wearing you're wearing another Tiffany thing.
Although that one, yes, yes, like before we were been married, right.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Yes, this one was.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
It's a classic now it.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Is vintage now they don't make them anymore. That was
your first Christmas present to me? Ever, yes, there before
I even knew what a little blue box meant.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Okay, Jesse, no pressure, But what was your first present
to Michelle?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
It was actually a uh I wrote a not a poem.
What does it call where you do a thing where
you use the first letter of a thing to start
a ligne?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, I made Michelle one of those.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
So oh, that's actually better.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Luckily, I'm very lucky that she does not care for diamonds,
so my gift budget is lower than most tonight.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Well, this one's not a diamond. I will say I
didn't much care for diamonds either, but Bill said, I
don't care. I want everyone to know that you spoke
for He wanted no misunderstanding on what that ring was.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It's clear that's true, all right. Our interview today is
with Cynthia Palaio. She is the Bram bram Stoker Award
winning author of Forgotten Sisters and many other genre blending
novels that incorporate fairy tale and mystery and horror elements.
(04:51):
Esquire called her novel Liuteria one of the best horror
books of twenty twenty three. She's written numerous short stories too,
and even a collection of poetry. Can't wait to talk
to her about all that, But first, the news news
(05:24):
story number one authors can now create AI narrated audio
books for free through the leading AI audio company eleven
labs and they can be distributed everywhere. This is a
big change for anybody who's involved in the audiobook business.
(05:44):
They've launched a subsidiary company called eleven Reader Publishing. I'll
put the link in the show notes. Authors can go
there and create and sell these AI narrated audiobooks, which
I'll just say again sound better than you think. Not
a substitute for real people, but not horrible, and free
(06:05):
and you can do it through their app, and it
doesn't cost anything up front. They take their cut on
the back end. They get a dollar ten per listener.
But when you think about what audiobooks cost, that's really
not very much. And the big thing is you can
distribute it anywhere. I mean we already have. Amazon can
(06:26):
generate an AI narrated audiobook, but you can only sell
it an Amazon. Google do the same thing, but you
can only sell it Google Play. This one you can
send anywhere. Even Spotify has announced that it's going to
team up with them and accept these AI narrated audio
books and find a Way Voices, which we've mentioned several
(06:49):
times as a great audio book producer. Well, they're now
owned by Spotify, So are you really surprised that they
will also distribute those audio books. But here's the catch.
Any audiobooks created with AI will be clearly marked as such. Laura,
is this good news for the world of writing and writers?
Speaker 5 (07:12):
So before I would hop into that, I would want
to go to the site. I'd want to hear some samples.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Magnificent is if they're magnificent?
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yes, because those those Amazon audiobook narrations that you're talking
about are still in beta. That's not available to everyone.
So that's kind of a flaw there. It's great for
people who have access to it, but not everyone does.
I mean great if you want to use it, right,
(07:44):
I'd like, I mean, I'll go look at it. I'll
go look at it and check it out. But as
far as what they keep, I think it is less
than it's it's less than what ACX takes. It seems
like it could be something that for help independent authors.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Yeah, or so small publishers. A small publishers just we're
not trying to disor eliminate human narrators, some of whom
are the best, but they're also expensive and some people
just can't afford that or don't want to share profits. Well,
here's a workaround for that, Jesse, would you buy AI
(08:24):
narrated audio? You listened to audio books, right?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I actually I don't listen to audio book which is
podcasts podcast yeah, okay, I don't. Mentally it's better for
me to read it than it is for me to
listen to it. Me too, yeah, which iron considering the
work I do, but other than taking money directly out
of my pocket, I don't think I would listen to
(08:49):
if I was going to listen to an aisle because
I have listened to some I don't think. I don't
think I could put up with an AI narrator because
I would be able to tell. And that might be
because of the work I do. And I also think
most people will probably pick up on it because it's
not going to be perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It never is. And I also don't like that it's free.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Like like free things, it's one of the things where
the money's coming from somewhere, so they're either yes, they're
getting money on the back end, but that means they're
also probably using your book to help train whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And that's one of those you know.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
I'm going to say, an ACX, you don't pay them
anything up front, ACX when you log in and create
that it is free. They take their money for every
book sale. So that's why I'm saying, I'd want to
go look at it, like you said, I would like
to look for some kind of fine print or some
kind of catch like you're talking about them. I'm with you.
(09:43):
I'm like, if it's free, what do we think. But
ACX was like that too. They just take a huge
piece of it and you don't get a lot. And
it's a little discouraging. We hear all the time about
how audiobooks are exploding and blowing up and you can
make so much money from audiobooks. And I'm sure for
some people that is true, But I've used ACX in
(10:07):
the past, and discouraging and dismayed are good words there.
It's it resulted in something, which is always better than nothing.
But even having a narrator who was willing to share
loyalties with me so that there was no upfront cost
for either of us, yeah, I felt I felt disappointed
(10:29):
with the results. And she's she's great.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I like her.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But yeah, now, Jesse, when you record audio books, you're
usually recording for the author, right an author wants to
read their own book, and you know, anybody with that
big an ego, They're still going to read their own books, right,
And yes, I'm talking about you Berry out in Portugal.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I hope you're.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Listening to this. That's Barry Friedman, frequent guest on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
He seems to be having fun, so.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, I miss him.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I know.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Okay, news story number I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Did you have you seen like the cost of audio
books through that? Because that's another thing I hear from
some people that if you don't have a subscription service
to Audible or someplace something like that, that audiobooks are
actually kind of expensive and some people shy away from
them for that reason. So if it made the audiobook costless,
(11:26):
perhaps that's open additional doors and get more people listening
to that.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And like, this would ben interesting question for our listeners.
Like everyone I know who's a big audiobook listener has.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
An Audible subscription.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yeah, they don't buy the audiobooks, correct, And you know,
so that means like would they buy, would they listen
to more? Would they you know, what would they pay
for it? If it wasn't in the Audible subscriptions that
I would like to change that out.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I got to
point out, you know, when I did the audio books
for all of those books on writing, the Red Sneaker
Books and the I Can't Story structure and creating character
and all those, I did the audio books and they
sold like crazy in the first years because I think
(12:12):
they're relatively short, and so the price was lower. So
price really does matter to people. Okay. New story number two,
Amazon Kindle is removing the download option via USB. If
you use any kind of Kindle device, you may have
seen this announcement because it went into effect on February
(12:35):
twenty six.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Helpful.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
The users will no longer be able to download purchase
purchased ebooks onto your computer via USB, which sometimes people
would do to have a backup copy if they're going
to be someplace when they're not connected to Wi Fi,
or for various other reasons. Some people just like it,
(12:57):
I think, to get out of the store, or because
sometimes files are updated, the author makes a minor change,
and then it goes everywhere, except not if you've already
saved a cup a copy to your computer, which maybe
why Amazon's doing it. I don't know. They don't explain themselves.
They just announce changes. It doesn't affect users' ability to
(13:18):
manually copy documents to their kindles using the sin to feature.
But you're not going to be able to leave us
be it down to your computer, Laura, what's the motive here?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
I'm not sure even fully understand.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
I mean, I always load up on books before we
travel so that I have something to read on the.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Airport on your ica. You're not saying yes on my iPad.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Yes, but you used to be able to download them
to a computer and now, oh.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
I've never done that, So I since I'm unaffected, I
I assume that they're trying to stop piracy, or at
least that's their argument that they're probably I don't. I
don't really know.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And it does point out that when you buy an
e book, you're not actually buying an emails. You're licensing the.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Licensing that's right, which is.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
A big difference. Jesse, have any thoughts on this, well, I.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Do, as someone who has pirated UH ebooks before.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
This is this is clearly.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
A the FBI is not listening.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, uh, I.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Don't come back and listen if it makes a feeling better.
It was like the Wheel of Time books, which you
know are long.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I probably need three computers to hold it.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right, Yeah, it's fun it's funny how small ebook sized
books are. Even for ginormous books, it's still like, you know,
a couple of hundred kilobytes and that's it. This goes
to the fact that these companies think we don't own
the things we buy, and that's very upsetting and annoying,
Like we're not license, that's not what we agree to,
that's not how our capitalistic, capitalistic system normally works.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And I don't like it, right, right, I think you're
right about that.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Okay, it sounds like I shall be unaffected, so I'm
not arms. Yeah, that's it now.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Well, I mean, like for example, like Jesse, no, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Well, like I'm thinking of like moving to a Cobo
reader instead of a Kindle, and will I be able
to get the books that I bought?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And then you know, use Kleebri, which is a free,
open source program it's great for like managing e books.
Will I be able to use that to convert it
into the format that you know, a Cobo could use,
or we're gonna have to re buy everything, which really
changes my decision. And it's also a little uh, you know,
what's a that's very monopoly esque of Amazon to do.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
But if you bought something for a Nook, it would
likewise be specific to the Nook. When Cobo announced they
were going to have a reader, how new is that.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, Cobo reader has been around for a while.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Around for a while.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yeah, you can now actually buy them on Amazon. It's
been a long problem where you couldn't get them on
an Amazon didn't want.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
To sell it anything on Amazon, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Except competitors to Amazon products most of the time.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Well, that's that's that's part of it. I mean, people
who are specific to Nook can only get the Nook.
And so now it sounds like the Cobo is going
to be specific to cobone. You're going to have to
figure out where you are.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Every other e reader other than Amazon uses the same format,
the format. Amazon's the only one that has their own
modified format, but.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
That's going out. They've announced that in March they're no
longer going to accept dot mobi files what we used
to call mobi files is their own. Not only are
they not going to accept it if you've done it
in the past, which you know at one point you
were required to do by Amazon, but you're going to
(16:47):
have to replace all those files now with epubs.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
But they've been so we've been. I've been uploading kindle
epub files for a while now because we heard this
was coming. Is it still different? Is it a different
epub file?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, Well, as far as I know, they have their
own format, which is like dot I think something something,
which yeah, maybe.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
It might still be neat.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Well, we will find out. That'll be the top story
in a week, so stay tuned. In the meantime. Today
in craft Corner we have longtime writer, con friend and
sponsored Desiree Duffy of Black Chatteau and Books that Make You.
Her topic is getting editorial book reviews, which can be
(17:36):
challenging but very important, so take it away, Desiree.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Craft Quarner.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
There are three main types of book reviews editorial which
we covered in Part one. Endorsements were recovering now in
Part two, as well as consumer types of reviews. Talk
about those later. Right now, let's dive into author endorsements,
influencers and expert types of book reviews. These are solicited
(18:10):
endorsements and reviews from respected figures, and that includes best
selling authors or other authors, high profile influencers, or celebrities, experts,
or academic peers. The purpose of these types of reviews
is to leverage name, recognition and authority to build your credibility.
(18:33):
You lean on their brand a little bit to help
uplift yours. You align the book with respected individuals or
even niche influencers who resonate with your target audience. Because
you might share a target audience. Let's kind of purse
(18:54):
that out just a little bit more. When it comes
to author endorsements, your publisher may have similar authors that
they will reach out to. There might not be too
much for you to do if you're with a traditional
publisher because they know other authors who can blurb or
give a recommendation about your book. If you're an indie
author or self published maybe worth a small press or
(19:17):
a hybrid press, and they don't necessarily have those connections, well,
you can use your connections as an author with similar
authors can even swap endorsements with one another. When it
comes to influencers or celebrities, let's purse that down just
a little bit further. You can identify these influencers who
(19:39):
are on social media, bookstrogrammers for example, and booktop creators
or even bloggers look for them in your genre. As
an author, you should be doing this months even years
before your book is out. You should be part of
the community that is already out there talking about the
type of book that you are writing. You can reach
(20:00):
out to these types of influencers with personalized pitches. Offer
them free copies or an arc of your book swag
if you got any merch or anything. Give them some previews,
and don't be surprised, especially if they have large followings
if they're looking for compensation as well. Now, if they're
(20:21):
more of a celebrity, or maybe a journalist with a
premium platform think New York Times or LA Times, or
an athlete for example. In those cases, you probably want
to find out who represents them, their publicists or their agent,
or even their publisher to make that formal request. When
(20:42):
it comes to experts or academic reviews, use your network
of professionals in your niche Chances are you know people already.
This is especially true in nonfiction books or anything that
might be in the world of academia. You're going to
know who to talk to, probably more so than your
(21:02):
publisher does. Reach out to these folks. You can do
anything from that formal request that we just talked about,
or a letter to a direct message and email, and
if you know them well enough, okay, just give them
a call or text them yourself. The benefits of these
types of endorsement reviews is that they can go on
(21:24):
the back cover of your book, in press releases, in ads.
Those people have name recognition and you're going to be
able to utilize that. Influencers create a oftentimes a visual
buzz that goes along with your book. Think of Instagram
esthetics and TikTok videos. Influencer and celebrities can reach their
(21:48):
audience and that creates word of mouth buzz that oftentimes
can go beyond what an author or a publisher's reach
can accomplish. These types of reviews also have the most
potential to go viral. A big thank you goes up
to William Burnheart and the team for making me a
(22:08):
part of Craft Corner.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Thank you so much, Desiree. Now let's talk to Cynthia Palio.
Cynthia PALAIOH, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Oh, I'm glad you could be here all right. Traditional
first question, if you could offer writers one piece of
advice what would it be.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think we need to just be a little bit
kinder to ourselfs, so just really enjoy the process. It's
sometimes I think we're a little overwhelmed with the overabundance
of advice and it's nice just to kind of step
back and remember why we're doing it this we really
(22:56):
enjoy it, and when you find that point of your joy,
the writing will come so much easier.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's deadlines that always killed the joy for me, right,
It's like, I've got to get this done. And how
did you get interested in writing books?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So? I was a journalist back in the nineties and
early two thousands, and you know, journalism is its entire
own field. And I left it because I was working
in marketing research and I still wanted to continue writing,
and I pursued Masters of Fine Arts and writing. I
(23:35):
experimented with short story form and it was there that
I started developing longer length work and I've been in
love with it since then.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Apologies to anybody that I'm maligning, but I think you
are the first guest we've ever had who is an
actual Bram Stoker Award winner, which is pretty cooled just
for the uninitiated that is the award in the world
of horror. That must have been a big deal. How'd
(24:10):
you feel when you found out about that?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I had to be practically carried to the stage by
my friend. He walked around, picked me up out of
my seat and helped direct me to the stage because
I could not believe it. It was shocking and an honor.
And I yes, the entire time.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
That's fantastic. And which book was that for?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
This was for a book of poetry titled crime Scene,
where I wrote a not a poem like a novee
verse about following one detective across the life of crime.
And I did it as a long pong a.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Serious crime is I want that? Yeah? Checking that out tonight?
Speaker 5 (25:01):
Excellent, I'll borrow it. Okay, Well, tell us about your
new book, Vanishing Daughters, So now we're intrigued by your
crime scene.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Vanishing Daughters follows Briar Rose Thorne, who returns home after
her mother died. Her mother left their ancestral home to
her crumbling mansion on Chicago's South Side. The family made
their wealth and radios, but radios aren't really that they
will turn to anymore, and so she's overwhelmed with grief,
(25:34):
overwhelmed with the maintenance of this massive property. And as
she starts she's a journalist, and so as she starts
researching her next article, she stumbled upon a series of connected,
unsolved murders of women in the new in the neighborhood,
and she determines that there's likely a serial killer operating
(25:58):
and she gets too close to the real color, and
he sets his heights on her.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Oh, oh, very good. Well, your work has been described
as genre blending. Was that intentional? And what do you
think people mean when they describe it that way.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
I don't like intentionally set out to say I'm going
to create a piece of work that leans detective and
mystery or whatnot. I just start writing, and I know
I I noticed that certain elements would just balance out
a little bit. Further So, most of my works are
(26:40):
fairy tale adaptations. So Vanler deals heavily with the fairy
tale of sleeping beauty, and in it, the serial color
is obsessed with putting women to sleep. And then I
think horror is sort of like the underlying like foundation
I have, but from there I built upon it. Because
(27:03):
some of my major influences were like Ageta Christie and
even like Sir Conan Doyle and so I think for me,
mystery just makes sense, and it appears really with horror
as well as like detective fiction and the procedure.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
So in Vanishing Daughters, you talked about serial killers and
things we associate with thrillers or mystery crime novels, but
I think there's also some horror.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
What do you call it?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
What do I call it? Cause it a thriller?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Really?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Okay, I will.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Admit that I think most of my novels should are
just genre funding they're a little bit they sort of
do defy genre. They have like fantastical elements to them,
a little bit of natural, so they're not based in realism.
Might be you know, reading thing and it's you feel
like it's based in reality, and then a ghost will appear.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I love it. It sounds really good to me.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
I'm not sure how many thrillers I've ever read that
I really thought were credible, but they don't always have
ghosts exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I usually caution, like the mystery reader or a traditional
thriller reader, that my works are like supernatural supernatural thriller
or supernatural mystery.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
That's really I mean, yeah, sounds really good.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
And you're not only you know, mixing and matching and
messing around with genres, you're also dealing with different literary forms.
Like you've already said, you've written short stories, you've written
poetry or verse, you've written novels. How do you decide
you get that great idea, how do you decide what
kind of project it's going to be?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Oh, so I think it right now. I think a
lot of the short story projects are come to me. Well,
I'll be in by it to a lot of projects.
Generally with my novels, those need to be very multi layered.
(29:09):
So a short story will just be like one idea
as opposed to a novel, I'll have like multiple themes involved.
So like in Vanishing Daughters, there's like the theme of grief.
Then there's also a lot of about Coggle's history with
being a home to like multiple serial killers, which is
(29:32):
very strange John Wayne Gacy, H Charles. And then there's
also this concept of true crime element where nearly fifty
one or over fifty one women have been murdered in
the Chicagoland area, which is true, and it seems like
that serial killer is at Lace. So I will weave
in multiple things and see if they compliment one another,
(29:55):
and then that will be a novel.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Interesting. And before we move on, I just got to
ask because Laura and I work with writers all the
time and many are writing short stories, and then they
ask and where do I send it? And I'm like, yeah,
that's tough. How do you get your short stories published?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So those it depends, because it's true the market for
short stories is very slim. There are a lot of
online magazines still that will publish short stories, and it's
important to you know, be involved in writing communities. There's
different websites now that will give like the timelines and
(30:38):
be aware of like submission deadlines. There's also calls for
anthologies where that's a great place if you can get
your short story placed and an anthology. I would really
recommend that, especially for like you writers, because that's an
opportunity to have your work showcased with established authors alongside,
(30:59):
and that would be a great opportunity to get more
eyes on your.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
That's excellent advice. How do you how do you start
a new project? You've talked about how you consider your
themes and what elements you want to include, but do
you do you outline take notes? Would you call yourself
a panther or a planner?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I gosh, I am struggling right now with my next project,
which is interesting. I think it is true for some
writers say that every project it's a little bit different.
I am an out and I love taking copious amounts
of notes. So I love just stocking up on notebooks
(31:43):
when I'm going to start writing a new project. And
I love your research. I love, you know, going to
coffee shops and listening in on conversations that might kind
of be able to weave in to my stories from
how But I typically will write out my outline and excel.
(32:03):
It just makes sense for me because there's different fields,
and so I will break the note down chapter by chapters,
so I'm usually I write about thirty five is chapters,
So I tend to know like the midpoint is going
to be in the middle of the novel, and then
from there I'm able to kind of plot out where
(32:24):
the beats will fall. I usually write my novels more
based on like a traditional three act structure. No, it's
easier to map that out.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Well, I've just got to ask what are in the
different cells or the columns in your Excel spreadsheet. Is
that like chapter, plot, character or what.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, so I'm going to open one of mine that
I was actually looking at.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
I used, I used an Excel sheet once I tried that.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It is a yeah, it's a little overwhelming, but I
call it my map, novel map. So what I will
have like on one column it's like the chapters, and
then over on the other tabs I will have like
so for example, I have you heard of Saved the Cat?
Speaker 8 (33:09):
Of course yes, So I will have a series of columns,
so I have the Saved the Cat, and for example,
I have a column there that says save the cat.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Opening image generally happens between zero to one percent. And
so then I know, right chapter one, I'm going to
have to have my opening image around there. But then
next to save the Cat, I also have two other
comparable columns, a horror beat sheet and then a mystery
beat sheet. So in the mystery beat sheet column, I
(33:43):
have it written dramatic opening, an incident that sets the
story into motion. That's usually what within a mystery, something's
happening we're in there. And then with the horror beat
sheet column that says the world is not what it seems.
And then across that I will have like the character names,
(34:04):
what history. I'll have something written out in history so
that I can start pinning and understanding. It sounds really complicated.
It's difficult to that way, I know, all right. In
chapter one, this is what I'm going to target. I'm
targeting and opening sequence that says things in motion that
(34:25):
will make it seem like everything isn't what it seems,
and it will have that opening image from Saving the Cat.
And then I will list out for the characters within
that chapter. So it's overwhelming. It doesn't work for everyone,
but you can do it and outline in different ways.
You can just have an outlining word. I've told people
(34:47):
who don't like outlining think of it as even developing
something that's a guide post. You don't have really detailed
because the fun is sometimes just discovering. You can just
write down like one sentence or a few so that
you know these certain things are happening in this chapter
and you can continue building from there.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
M M. You are very much a planner. I like that,
and I might revisit the Excel street I used. I
found it helpful to a point. And then I did
get kind of overwhelmed and reverted back to my just
line by line outline that I work from.
Speaker 6 (35:23):
But I really like that, so thank you for sharing
that with this. And every novel is different. So what
ever worked for one novel, I'm seeing now what I'm
used to were from my previous novels isn't quite working
for this novel. So I'm tweaking my good advice.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
So now can you describe your daily writing process so
that gets you started, and then how do you approach
the work each day to get it finished.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So I am a mom of two, yes nice, it
really my days are chaotic for any parents out there
daring for a love ones. So I generally in the morning,
I will try to wake up before everyone, get a
few things, a few key things done, shuffle everyone off
(36:10):
to school, and then when I come home, I have
a nice block of time and that's my time to
really write. And I am a big proponent of just
get the words down, however messy they look. They cause
can't edit what you don't have. So I just absolutely
and there'll be typos and things that don't make sense
(36:32):
now and it's you're not and it's just a jumble mess,
and then I get everybody back home, and then my
evening is sort of my opportunity to plan what I'm
going to do tomorrow. So like I'll look at my
outline and then I kind of like repull the levers
and tweak things around, because just because you're outlining, that
doesn't mean that that's set in stone. You can keep
(36:55):
tweaking things along. So my days are a little chaotic,
but I get the writing. However, I need to get it.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Done, and you are getting it done, and you've been
doing it for a while. Now, what are some of
the lessons you've learned along the way about writing or
publishing or something you didn't know when you started but
is apparent to you now.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Oh gosh, I just there's just so much. It's a
very I think it's a it's just an overwhelming industry,
the business aspect of it all. And I think what
I wish I knew then is that you have to
separate both of them. Yes, in your mind, there is
(37:41):
one component, which is the business, and you have no
control over that, and then there is the other component,
which is your writing, which is all that you have
control over. And as long as you're enjoying the writing.
Then that's like the best part because you can't control
all the other stuff. So I wish I didn't put
(38:04):
so much pressure on myself to feel like I had
to be, you know, perfect and everything and everything had
to work out. I think I would have just focused
more on me what I've learned, and so I'm back.
I think I've recalibrated and all of my energy is
back and to just focusing on the writing. And you know,
(38:26):
thankfully I'm agented. And then I just send stuff off
to my agent and then hi in a corner and
tel every reads it.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
All right, fantastic. Well you sort of suggested you're working
on something. Now, what's coming out next? After Vanishing Daughters?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm working on a historical horror novel that takes place
in World War two. So right now I am really
just involved in all things research. Well, I hope to
for you all hon to see that soon, so we'll
see how it goes. But there's that's a fascinating time period. Yeah,
(39:02):
and in time, so it's just a lot of research,
no doubt.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Well, maybe a year from now, when you've gotten all
that worked out, we can have you back on the podcast.
To talk about that one which fairy tale will that
involve your pan? Oh, that's really intrigued, But it is.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Did I say world War two? I said World War One?
So it's World War one? Okay, So yeah, so that's
what I'm working on right now.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Sounds fantastic. Hey, well, good luck with Vanishing Daughters, and
thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Thank you, this is lovely. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Just a few parting words. Let me remind you that
we are getting ever closer to the writer Con Cruise,
which is May thirty first to seven, going to Alaska,
leaving from Seattle, and I want to emphasize that we
have reserved a block of rooms and have gotten a
great discount I mean a serious discount for people coming
(40:10):
for writer Con, you know, for the writing classes on board.
But it is not infinite and when it runs out,
it's gone. So if you're thinking about this register now
and take advantage of that discount, pluck. You're going to
get twenty hours of writing instructions scheduled while the boats
at sea, not when you want to go off and
(40:32):
see the ice cap, smelt or whatever. And we always
have a great time and get a lot done. Laura
Quick final jeopardy. How many people who have come on
that quiz? Would you guess? Are published now on the cruise?
Yeah is good quiz, but on the crewise this.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Is the Cruise now published quite a few, with more
in the pipeline, and some of them are starting to
win aboards for their work.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Ooh good point. Yeah. Anyway, it's really worth doing if
you're interested in bringing or writing up to the next level.
Not to mention seeing the beauty of Alaska. I'm so excited,
Google writer con I'll leave a link in the show
notes and may I also mentioned that I got a
new novel out's coming out next Oh, it'll be yesterday
(41:25):
when this book is released, when this podcast is released.
I can't get anything right today. But it is Challengers
of the Dust change a pace for me because it's
set in nineteen thirty five dust Bowl, Oklahoma. Two young
men are forced to undertake an impossible mission find the
(41:45):
local big wigs wayward daughter, which sends them on a
cross country trek during which they meet a lot of
Depression era people, including some famous and soon to be
famous people. It's a change pace, but it's a lot
of fun, and especially if you're interested in history or
the time period the Depression, World War two, the period
(42:08):
that literally transformed America in a good way. Here's your book,
Challengers are the dest Okay.
Speaker 5 (42:15):
I think I heard that you had a pretty good
editor for that too.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
I have a pretty good editor on all of my works,
and it's just so good. I made her a co
host on the podcast. So and on that note, until
next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail if
you refuse to quit. All right, See you next time.
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I think we need to just be a little bit
hinder to ourself, so just really enjoy the process.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Your hosts are William.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of the Red Sneaker
books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich and hey, they're writers, thanks for
joining us today. We are all three of us, I
think recently back from big travel expeditions. Laura and I
were in New York recently. And Jesse, you just got
back from the Star Trek.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Cruise, right, that is correct.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Did you have a decent time?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I did have a decent time. I did happen to
catch COVID on the way home. So oh that's been
a fun week.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
Yeah, so sorry.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
That's all right. I got some Pact slot bit on Thursday.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Feeling better now, I will say, the energy to get
ready for this recording took.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
A lot out of me. I'm like, oh, I am
more tired than but we'll talk quickly.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yes, but you're feeling at right now?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh yeah, the cruise was great.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You know, uh, the you know, each cruise has a captain, right,
like the sort of who they think the biggest celebrity.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
It was Kate Mogrew for this year because it was
a voyager and reverse year. And she's always great. She's
just like such an honest, earnest, deep person, Like any
time you get to get to hear it talk is fantastic.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
So more importantly for this podcast, when's she going to
write her book?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I think she was talking about that, so she's working
on it.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Possibly every star on that book on that boat may
be working on a memoir.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
We know there's an audience.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Seriously, the actress who plays you know her on Street
New Worlds, Like she's only twenty five years old. She's
already lived like a full life of doing shows and whatnot.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, so yeah, impressive. Laura, we of course were on
New York kind of research slash fun visit. What was
your favorite part?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
You know, I hate picking favorites. Okay favorite, Yeah, I
get three, Okay, I could do three. So while you
were in the library doing your research, I went to
the Guggenheim Museum and that was amazing. I had a
really good time there and saw some fantastic artwork and
(02:40):
learned some art history, so that was wonderful. And of
course we we had we had pizza at an old
old history right right that establishment, Yes, that one of
our former podcasts.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Reviews.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Yeah, Thomas invited us and so we got to meet
him in real life, which was fabulous. And then of
course all the shows, that's my third thing, all the
shows that we saw, I'm gonna lump them all together.
I just loved it.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
We had to try to Tiffany's would at least make
the top three. But that's just my own selfish, very fun.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
There's my there's my new acquisition, which for.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Your well you're not wearing you're wearing another Tiffany thing.
Although that one, yes, yes, like before we were been married, right.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Yes, this one was.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
It's a classic now it.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Is vintage now they don't make them anymore. That was
your first Christmas present to me? Ever, yes, there before
I even knew what a little blue box meant.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Okay, Jesse, no pressure, But what was your first present
to Michelle?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
It was actually a uh I wrote a not a poem.
What does it call where you do a thing where
you use the first letter of a thing to start
a ligne?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yes, I made Michelle one of those.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
So oh, that's actually better.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Luckily, I'm very lucky that she does not care for diamonds,
so my gift budget is lower than most tonight.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Well, this one's not a diamond. I will say I
didn't much care for diamonds either, but Bill said, I
don't care. I want everyone to know that you spoke
for He wanted no misunderstanding on what that ring was.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It's clear that's true, all right. Our interview today is
with Cynthia Palaio. She is the Bram bram Stoker Award
winning author of Forgotten Sisters and many other genre blending
novels that incorporate fairy tale and mystery and horror elements.
(04:51):
Esquire called her novel Liuteria one of the best horror
books of twenty twenty three. She's written numerous short stories too,
and even a collection of poetry. Can't wait to talk
to her about all that, But first, the news news
(05:24):
story number one authors can now create AI narrated audio
books for free through the leading AI audio company eleven
labs and they can be distributed everywhere. This is a
big change for anybody who's involved in the audiobook business.
(05:44):
They've launched a subsidiary company called eleven Reader Publishing. I'll
put the link in the show notes. Authors can go
there and create and sell these AI narrated audiobooks, which
I'll just say again sound better than you think. Not
a substitute for real people, but not horrible, and free
(06:05):
and you can do it through their app, and it
doesn't cost anything up front. They take their cut on
the back end. They get a dollar ten per listener.
But when you think about what audiobooks cost, that's really
not very much. And the big thing is you can
distribute it anywhere. I mean we already have. Amazon can
(06:26):
generate an AI narrated audiobook, but you can only sell
it an Amazon. Google do the same thing, but you
can only sell it Google Play. This one you can
send anywhere. Even Spotify has announced that it's going to
team up with them and accept these AI narrated audio
books and find a Way Voices, which we've mentioned several
(06:49):
times as a great audio book producer. Well, they're now
owned by Spotify, So are you really surprised that they
will also distribute those audio books. But here's the catch.
Any audiobooks created with AI will be clearly marked as such. Laura,
is this good news for the world of writing and writers?
Speaker 5 (07:12):
So before I would hop into that, I would want
to go to the site. I'd want to hear some samples.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Magnificent is if they're magnificent?
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yes, because those those Amazon audiobook narrations that you're talking
about are still in beta. That's not available to everyone.
So that's kind of a flaw there. It's great for
people who have access to it, but not everyone does.
I mean great if you want to use it, right,
(07:44):
I'd like, I mean, I'll go look at it. I'll
go look at it and check it out. But as
far as what they keep, I think it is less
than it's it's less than what ACX takes. It seems
like it could be something that for help independent authors.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Yeah, or so small publishers. A small publishers just we're
not trying to disor eliminate human narrators, some of whom
are the best, but they're also expensive and some people
just can't afford that or don't want to share profits. Well,
here's a workaround for that, Jesse, would you buy AI
(08:24):
narrated audio? You listened to audio books, right?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I actually I don't listen to audio book which is
podcasts podcast yeah, okay, I don't. Mentally it's better for
me to read it than it is for me to
listen to it. Me too, yeah, which iron considering the
work I do, but other than taking money directly out
of my pocket, I don't think I would listen to
(08:49):
if I was going to listen to an aisle because
I have listened to some I don't think. I don't
think I could put up with an AI narrator because
I would be able to tell. And that might be
because of the work I do. And I also think
most people will probably pick up on it because it's
not going to be perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It never is. And I also don't like that it's free.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Like like free things, it's one of the things where
the money's coming from somewhere, so they're either yes, they're
getting money on the back end, but that means they're
also probably using your book to help train whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And that's one of those you know.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
I'm going to say, an ACX, you don't pay them
anything up front, ACX when you log in and create
that it is free. They take their money for every
book sale. So that's why I'm saying, I'd want to
go look at it, like you said, I would like
to look for some kind of fine print or some
kind of catch like you're talking about them. I'm with you.
(09:43):
I'm like, if it's free, what do we think. But
ACX was like that too. They just take a huge
piece of it and you don't get a lot. And
it's a little discouraging. We hear all the time about
how audiobooks are exploding and blowing up and you can
make so much money from audiobooks. And I'm sure for
some people that is true, But I've used ACX in
(10:07):
the past, and discouraging and dismayed are good words there.
It's it resulted in something, which is always better than nothing.
But even having a narrator who was willing to share
loyalties with me so that there was no upfront cost
for either of us, yeah, I felt I felt disappointed
(10:29):
with the results. And she's she's great.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I like her.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But yeah, now, Jesse, when you record audio books, you're
usually recording for the author, right an author wants to
read their own book, and you know, anybody with that
big an ego, They're still going to read their own books, right,
And yes, I'm talking about you Berry out in Portugal.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I hope you're.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
Listening to this. That's Barry Friedman, frequent guest on this podcast.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
He seems to be having fun, so.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, I miss him.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I know.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Okay, news story number I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Did you have you seen like the cost of audio
books through that? Because that's another thing I hear from
some people that if you don't have a subscription service
to Audible or someplace something like that, that audiobooks are
actually kind of expensive and some people shy away from
them for that reason. So if it made the audiobook costless,
(11:26):
perhaps that's open additional doors and get more people listening
to that.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And like, this would ben interesting question for our listeners.
Like everyone I know who's a big audiobook listener has.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
An Audible subscription.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yeah, they don't buy the audiobooks, correct, And you know,
so that means like would they buy, would they listen
to more? Would they you know, what would they pay
for it? If it wasn't in the Audible subscriptions that
I would like to change that out.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I got to
point out, you know, when I did the audio books
for all of those books on writing, the Red Sneaker
Books and the I Can't Story structure and creating character
and all those, I did the audio books and they
sold like crazy in the first years because I think
(12:12):
they're relatively short, and so the price was lower. So
price really does matter to people. Okay. New story number two,
Amazon Kindle is removing the download option via USB. If
you use any kind of Kindle device, you may have
seen this announcement because it went into effect on February
(12:35):
twenty six.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Helpful.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
The users will no longer be able to download purchase
purchased ebooks onto your computer via USB, which sometimes people
would do to have a backup copy if they're going
to be someplace when they're not connected to Wi Fi,
or for various other reasons. Some people just like it,
(12:57):
I think, to get out of the store, or because
sometimes files are updated, the author makes a minor change,
and then it goes everywhere, except not if you've already
saved a cup a copy to your computer, which maybe
why Amazon's doing it. I don't know. They don't explain themselves.
They just announce changes. It doesn't affect users' ability to
(13:18):
manually copy documents to their kindles using the sin to feature.
But you're not going to be able to leave us
be it down to your computer, Laura, what's the motive here?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
I'm not sure even fully understand.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
I mean, I always load up on books before we
travel so that I have something to read on the.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Airport on your ica. You're not saying yes on my iPad.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Yes, but you used to be able to download them
to a computer and now, oh.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
I've never done that, So I since I'm unaffected, I
I assume that they're trying to stop piracy, or at
least that's their argument that they're probably I don't. I
don't really know.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And it does point out that when you buy an
e book, you're not actually buying an emails. You're licensing the.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Licensing that's right, which is.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
A big difference. Jesse, have any thoughts on this, well, I.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Do, as someone who has pirated UH ebooks before.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
This is this is clearly.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
A the FBI is not listening.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, uh, I.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Don't come back and listen if it makes a feeling better.
It was like the Wheel of Time books, which you
know are long.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I probably need three computers to hold it.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right, Yeah, it's fun it's funny how small ebook sized
books are. Even for ginormous books, it's still like, you know,
a couple of hundred kilobytes and that's it. This goes
to the fact that these companies think we don't own
the things we buy, and that's very upsetting and annoying,
Like we're not license, that's not what we agree to,
that's not how our capitalistic, capitalistic system normally works.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And I don't like it, right, right, I think you're
right about that.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Okay, it sounds like I shall be unaffected, so I'm
not arms. Yeah, that's it now.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Well, I mean, like for example, like Jesse, no, it's fine.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Well, like I'm thinking of like moving to a Cobo
reader instead of a Kindle, and will I be able
to get the books that I bought?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And then you know, use Kleebri, which is a free,
open source program it's great for like managing e books.
Will I be able to use that to convert it
into the format that you know, a Cobo could use,
or we're gonna have to re buy everything, which really
changes my decision. And it's also a little uh, you know,
what's a that's very monopoly esque of Amazon to do.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
But if you bought something for a Nook, it would
likewise be specific to the Nook. When Cobo announced they
were going to have a reader, how new is that.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, Cobo reader has been around for a while.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Around for a while.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yeah, you can now actually buy them on Amazon. It's
been a long problem where you couldn't get them on
an Amazon didn't want.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
To sell it anything on Amazon, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Except competitors to Amazon products most of the time.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Well, that's that's that's part of it. I mean, people
who are specific to Nook can only get the Nook.
And so now it sounds like the Cobo is going
to be specific to cobone. You're going to have to
figure out where you are.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Every other e reader other than Amazon uses the same format,
the format. Amazon's the only one that has their own
modified format, but.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
That's going out. They've announced that in March they're no
longer going to accept dot mobi files what we used
to call mobi files is their own. Not only are
they not going to accept it if you've done it
in the past, which you know at one point you
were required to do by Amazon, but you're going to
(16:47):
have to replace all those files now with epubs.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
But they've been so we've been. I've been uploading kindle
epub files for a while now because we heard this
was coming. Is it still different? Is it a different
epub file?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, Well, as far as I know, they have their
own format, which is like dot I think something something,
which yeah, maybe.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
It might still be neat.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Well, we will find out. That'll be the top story
in a week, so stay tuned. In the meantime. Today
in craft Corner we have longtime writer, con friend and
sponsored Desiree Duffy of Black Chatteau and Books that Make You.
Her topic is getting editorial book reviews, which can be
(17:36):
challenging but very important, so take it away, Desiree.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Craft Quarner.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
There are three main types of book reviews editorial which
we covered in Part one. Endorsements were recovering now in
Part two, as well as consumer types of reviews. Talk
about those later. Right now, let's dive into author endorsements,
influencers and expert types of book reviews. These are solicited
(18:10):
endorsements and reviews from respected figures, and that includes best
selling authors or other authors, high profile influencers, or celebrities, experts,
or academic peers. The purpose of these types of reviews
is to leverage name, recognition and authority to build your credibility.
(18:33):
You lean on their brand a little bit to help
uplift yours. You align the book with respected individuals or
even niche influencers who resonate with your target audience. Because
you might share a target audience. Let's kind of purse
(18:54):
that out just a little bit more. When it comes
to author endorsements, your publisher may have similar authors that
they will reach out to. There might not be too
much for you to do if you're with a traditional
publisher because they know other authors who can blurb or
give a recommendation about your book. If you're an indie
author or self published maybe worth a small press or
(19:17):
a hybrid press, and they don't necessarily have those connections, well,
you can use your connections as an author with similar
authors can even swap endorsements with one another. When it
comes to influencers or celebrities, let's purse that down just
a little bit further. You can identify these influencers who
(19:39):
are on social media, bookstrogrammers for example, and booktop creators
or even bloggers look for them in your genre. As
an author, you should be doing this months even years
before your book is out. You should be part of
the community that is already out there talking about the
type of book that you are writing. You can reach
(20:00):
out to these types of influencers with personalized pitches. Offer
them free copies or an arc of your book swag
if you got any merch or anything. Give them some previews,
and don't be surprised, especially if they have large followings
if they're looking for compensation as well. Now, if they're
(20:21):
more of a celebrity, or maybe a journalist with a
premium platform think New York Times or LA Times, or
an athlete for example. In those cases, you probably want
to find out who represents them, their publicists or their agent,
or even their publisher to make that formal request. When
(20:42):
it comes to experts or academic reviews, use your network
of professionals in your niche Chances are you know people already.
This is especially true in nonfiction books or anything that
might be in the world of academia. You're going to
know who to talk to, probably more so than your
(21:02):
publisher does. Reach out to these folks. You can do
anything from that formal request that we just talked about,
or a letter to a direct message and email, and
if you know them well enough, okay, just give them
a call or text them yourself. The benefits of these
types of endorsement reviews is that they can go on
(21:24):
the back cover of your book, in press releases, in ads.
Those people have name recognition and you're going to be
able to utilize that. Influencers create a oftentimes a visual
buzz that goes along with your book. Think of Instagram
esthetics and TikTok videos. Influencer and celebrities can reach their
(21:48):
audience and that creates word of mouth buzz that oftentimes
can go beyond what an author or a publisher's reach
can accomplish. These types of reviews also have the most
potential to go viral. A big thank you goes up
to William Burnheart and the team for making me a
(22:08):
part of Craft Corner.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Thank you so much, Desiree. Now let's talk to Cynthia Palio.
Cynthia PALAIOH, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Oh, I'm glad you could be here all right. Traditional
first question, if you could offer writers one piece of
advice what would it be.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think we need to just be a little bit
kinder to ourselfs, so just really enjoy the process. It's
sometimes I think we're a little overwhelmed with the overabundance
of advice and it's nice just to kind of step
back and remember why we're doing it this we really
(22:56):
enjoy it, and when you find that point of your joy,
the writing will come so much easier.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's deadlines that always killed the joy for me, right,
It's like, I've got to get this done. And how
did you get interested in writing books?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So? I was a journalist back in the nineties and
early two thousands, and you know, journalism is its entire
own field. And I left it because I was working
in marketing research and I still wanted to continue writing,
and I pursued Masters of Fine Arts and writing. I
(23:35):
experimented with short story form and it was there that
I started developing longer length work and I've been in
love with it since then.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Apologies to anybody that I'm maligning, but I think you
are the first guest we've ever had who is an
actual Bram Stoker Award winner, which is pretty cooled just
for the uninitiated that is the award in the world
of horror. That must have been a big deal. How'd
(24:10):
you feel when you found out about that?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I had to be practically carried to the stage by
my friend. He walked around, picked me up out of
my seat and helped direct me to the stage because
I could not believe it. It was shocking and an honor.
And I yes, the entire time.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
That's fantastic. And which book was that for?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
This was for a book of poetry titled crime Scene,
where I wrote a not a poem like a novee
verse about following one detective across the life of crime.
And I did it as a long pong a.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Serious crime is I want that? Yeah? Checking that out tonight?
Speaker 5 (25:01):
Excellent, I'll borrow it. Okay, Well, tell us about your
new book, Vanishing Daughters, So now we're intrigued by your
crime scene.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Vanishing Daughters follows Briar Rose Thorne, who returns home after
her mother died. Her mother left their ancestral home to
her crumbling mansion on Chicago's South Side. The family made
their wealth and radios, but radios aren't really that they
will turn to anymore, and so she's overwhelmed with grief,
(25:34):
overwhelmed with the maintenance of this massive property. And as
she starts she's a journalist, and so as she starts
researching her next article, she stumbled upon a series of connected,
unsolved murders of women in the new in the neighborhood,
and she determines that there's likely a serial killer operating
(25:58):
and she gets too close to the real color, and
he sets his heights on her.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Oh, oh, very good. Well, your work has been described
as genre blending. Was that intentional? And what do you
think people mean when they describe it that way.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
I don't like intentionally set out to say I'm going
to create a piece of work that leans detective and
mystery or whatnot. I just start writing, and I know
I I noticed that certain elements would just balance out
a little bit. Further So, most of my works are
(26:40):
fairy tale adaptations. So Vanler deals heavily with the fairy
tale of sleeping beauty, and in it, the serial color
is obsessed with putting women to sleep. And then I
think horror is sort of like the underlying like foundation
I have, but from there I built upon it. Because
(27:03):
some of my major influences were like Ageta Christie and
even like Sir Conan Doyle and so I think for me,
mystery just makes sense, and it appears really with horror
as well as like detective fiction and the procedure.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
So in Vanishing Daughters, you talked about serial killers and
things we associate with thrillers or mystery crime novels, but
I think there's also some horror.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
What do you call it?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
What do I call it? Cause it a thriller?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Really?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Okay, I will.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Admit that I think most of my novels should are
just genre funding they're a little bit they sort of
do defy genre. They have like fantastical elements to them,
a little bit of natural, so they're not based in realism.
Might be you know, reading thing and it's you feel
like it's based in reality, and then a ghost will appear.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I love it. It sounds really good to me.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
I'm not sure how many thrillers I've ever read that
I really thought were credible, but they don't always have
ghosts exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I usually caution, like the mystery reader or a traditional
thriller reader, that my works are like supernatural supernatural thriller
or supernatural mystery.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
That's really I mean, yeah, sounds really good.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
And you're not only you know, mixing and matching and
messing around with genres, you're also dealing with different literary forms.
Like you've already said, you've written short stories, you've written
poetry or verse, you've written novels. How do you decide
you get that great idea, how do you decide what
kind of project it's going to be?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Oh, so I think it right now. I think a
lot of the short story projects are come to me. Well,
I'll be in by it to a lot of projects.
Generally with my novels, those need to be very multi layered.
(29:09):
So a short story will just be like one idea
as opposed to a novel, I'll have like multiple themes involved.
So like in Vanishing Daughters, there's like the theme of grief.
Then there's also a lot of about Coggle's history with
being a home to like multiple serial killers, which is
(29:32):
very strange John Wayne Gacy, H Charles. And then there's
also this concept of true crime element where nearly fifty
one or over fifty one women have been murdered in
the Chicagoland area, which is true, and it seems like
that serial killer is at Lace. So I will weave
in multiple things and see if they compliment one another,
(29:55):
and then that will be a novel.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Interesting. And before we move on, I just got to
ask because Laura and I work with writers all the
time and many are writing short stories, and then they
ask and where do I send it? And I'm like, yeah,
that's tough. How do you get your short stories published?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So those it depends, because it's true the market for
short stories is very slim. There are a lot of
online magazines still that will publish short stories, and it's
important to you know, be involved in writing communities. There's
different websites now that will give like the timelines and
(30:38):
be aware of like submission deadlines. There's also calls for
anthologies where that's a great place if you can get
your short story placed and an anthology. I would really
recommend that, especially for like you writers, because that's an
opportunity to have your work showcased with established authors alongside,
(30:59):
and that would be a great opportunity to get more
eyes on your.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
That's excellent advice. How do you how do you start
a new project? You've talked about how you consider your
themes and what elements you want to include, but do
you do you outline take notes? Would you call yourself
a panther or a planner?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I gosh, I am struggling right now with my next project,
which is interesting. I think it is true for some
writers say that every project it's a little bit different.
I am an out and I love taking copious amounts
of notes. So I love just stocking up on notebooks
(31:43):
when I'm going to start writing a new project. And
I love your research. I love, you know, going to
coffee shops and listening in on conversations that might kind
of be able to weave in to my stories from
how But I typically will write out my outline and excel.
(32:03):
It just makes sense for me because there's different fields,
and so I will break the note down chapter by chapters,
so I'm usually I write about thirty five is chapters,
So I tend to know like the midpoint is going
to be in the middle of the novel, and then
from there I'm able to kind of plot out where
(32:24):
the beats will fall. I usually write my novels more
based on like a traditional three act structure. No, it's
easier to map that out.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Well, I've just got to ask what are in the
different cells or the columns in your Excel spreadsheet. Is
that like chapter, plot, character or what.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, so I'm going to open one of mine that
I was actually looking at.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
I used, I used an Excel sheet once I tried that.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It is a yeah, it's a little overwhelming, but I
call it my map, novel map. So what I will
have like on one column it's like the chapters, and
then over on the other tabs I will have like
so for example, I have you heard of Saved the Cat?
Speaker 8 (33:09):
Of course yes, So I will have a series of columns,
so I have the Saved the Cat, and for example,
I have a column there that says save the cat.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Opening image generally happens between zero to one percent. And
so then I know, right chapter one, I'm going to
have to have my opening image around there. But then
next to save the Cat, I also have two other
comparable columns, a horror beat sheet and then a mystery
beat sheet. So in the mystery beat sheet column, I
(33:43):
have it written dramatic opening, an incident that sets the
story into motion. That's usually what within a mystery, something's
happening we're in there. And then with the horror beat
sheet column that says the world is not what it seems.
And then across that I will have like the character names,
(34:04):
what history. I'll have something written out in history so
that I can start pinning and understanding. It sounds really complicated.
It's difficult to that way, I know, all right. In
chapter one, this is what I'm going to target. I'm
targeting and opening sequence that says things in motion that
(34:25):
will make it seem like everything isn't what it seems,
and it will have that opening image from Saving the Cat.
And then I will list out for the characters within
that chapter. So it's overwhelming. It doesn't work for everyone,
but you can do it and outline in different ways.
You can just have an outlining word. I've told people
(34:47):
who don't like outlining think of it as even developing
something that's a guide post. You don't have really detailed
because the fun is sometimes just discovering. You can just
write down like one sentence or a few so that
you know these certain things are happening in this chapter
and you can continue building from there.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
M M. You are very much a planner. I like that,
and I might revisit the Excel street I used. I
found it helpful to a point. And then I did
get kind of overwhelmed and reverted back to my just
line by line outline that I work from.
Speaker 6 (35:23):
But I really like that, so thank you for sharing
that with this. And every novel is different. So what
ever worked for one novel, I'm seeing now what I'm
used to were from my previous novels isn't quite working
for this novel. So I'm tweaking my good advice.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
So now can you describe your daily writing process so
that gets you started, and then how do you approach
the work each day to get it finished.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So I am a mom of two, yes nice, it
really my days are chaotic for any parents out there
daring for a love ones. So I generally in the morning,
I will try to wake up before everyone, get a
few things, a few key things done, shuffle everyone off
(36:10):
to school, and then when I come home, I have
a nice block of time and that's my time to
really write. And I am a big proponent of just
get the words down, however messy they look. They cause
can't edit what you don't have. So I just absolutely
and there'll be typos and things that don't make sense
(36:32):
now and it's you're not and it's just a jumble mess,
and then I get everybody back home, and then my
evening is sort of my opportunity to plan what I'm
going to do tomorrow. So like I'll look at my
outline and then I kind of like repull the levers
and tweak things around, because just because you're outlining, that
doesn't mean that that's set in stone. You can keep
(36:55):
tweaking things along. So my days are a little chaotic,
but I get the writing. However, I need to get it.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Done, and you are getting it done, and you've been
doing it for a while. Now, what are some of
the lessons you've learned along the way about writing or
publishing or something you didn't know when you started but
is apparent to you now.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Oh gosh, I just there's just so much. It's a
very I think it's a it's just an overwhelming industry,
the business aspect of it all. And I think what
I wish I knew then is that you have to
separate both of them. Yes, in your mind, there is
(37:41):
one component, which is the business, and you have no
control over that, and then there is the other component,
which is your writing, which is all that you have
control over. And as long as you're enjoying the writing.
Then that's like the best part because you can't control
all the other stuff. So I wish I didn't put
(38:04):
so much pressure on myself to feel like I had
to be, you know, perfect and everything and everything had
to work out. I think I would have just focused
more on me what I've learned, and so I'm back.
I think I've recalibrated and all of my energy is
back and to just focusing on the writing. And you know,
(38:26):
thankfully I'm agented. And then I just send stuff off
to my agent and then hi in a corner and
tel every reads it.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
All right, fantastic. Well you sort of suggested you're working
on something. Now, what's coming out next? After Vanishing Daughters?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm working on a historical horror novel that takes place
in World War two. So right now I am really
just involved in all things research. Well, I hope to
for you all hon to see that soon, so we'll
see how it goes. But there's that's a fascinating time period. Yeah,
(39:02):
and in time, so it's just a lot of research,
no doubt.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Well, maybe a year from now, when you've gotten all
that worked out, we can have you back on the podcast.
To talk about that one which fairy tale will that
involve your pan? Oh, that's really intrigued, But it is.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Did I say world War two? I said World War One?
So it's World War one? Okay, So yeah, so that's
what I'm working on right now.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Sounds fantastic. Hey, well, good luck with Vanishing Daughters, and
thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Thank you, this is lovely. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Just a few parting words. Let me remind you that
we are getting ever closer to the writer Con Cruise,
which is May thirty first to seven, going to Alaska,
leaving from Seattle, and I want to emphasize that we
have reserved a block of rooms and have gotten a
great discount I mean a serious discount for people coming
(40:10):
for writer Con, you know, for the writing classes on board.
But it is not infinite and when it runs out,
it's gone. So if you're thinking about this register now
and take advantage of that discount, pluck. You're going to
get twenty hours of writing instructions scheduled while the boats
at sea, not when you want to go off and
(40:32):
see the ice cap, smelt or whatever. And we always
have a great time and get a lot done. Laura
Quick final jeopardy. How many people who have come on
that quiz? Would you guess? Are published now on the cruise?
Yeah is good quiz, but on the crewise this.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Is the Cruise now published quite a few, with more
in the pipeline, and some of them are starting to
win aboards for their work.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Ooh good point. Yeah. Anyway, it's really worth doing if
you're interested in bringing or writing up to the next level.
Not to mention seeing the beauty of Alaska. I'm so excited,
Google writer con I'll leave a link in the show
notes and may I also mentioned that I got a
new novel out's coming out next Oh, it'll be yesterday
(41:25):
when this book is released, when this podcast is released.
I can't get anything right today. But it is Challengers
of the Dust change a pace for me because it's
set in nineteen thirty five dust Bowl, Oklahoma. Two young
men are forced to undertake an impossible mission find the
(41:45):
local big wigs wayward daughter, which sends them on a
cross country trek during which they meet a lot of
Depression era people, including some famous and soon to be
famous people. It's a change pace, but it's a lot
of fun, and especially if you're interested in history or
the time period the Depression, World War two, the period
(42:08):
that literally transformed America in a good way. Here's your book,
Challengers are the dest Okay.
Speaker 5 (42:15):
I think I heard that you had a pretty good
editor for that too.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
I have a pretty good editor on all of my works,
and it's just so good. I made her a co
host on the podcast. So and on that note, until
next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail if
you refuse to quit. All right, See you next time.
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