August 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Abigail O'Bryan, who recently released her first novel, Iron Rose—a dark YA reimagining of Beauty & the Beast meets Hunger Games.
0:00 Opening Thoughts
You are cordially invited to WriterCon, our annual writers conference, this year at the Skirvin Hilton in Oklahoma City over Labor Day weekend, starting Friday, August 29. Over 60 speakers and over 100 sessions, pitching, contests, manuscript reviews, private consultations, etc. But the best thing about it is that this is a real community of writers, people eager to help, people who have your back and understand the challenges of being a writer in today’s world. I think people are often surprised by how warm and welcoming the group is, and how many friends they make and keep after the conference is over.
04:36 News
1) AI Whistleblower Act Proposed
2) You Might Be Able to Copyright Your Face
11:07 Craft Corner
This week's writing craft chat comes from Friend of the Podcast Betsey Kulakowski, author of the bestselling Veritas Codex series and a new book, The Veil of Secrets. Today she addresses the gigantic benefit of attending writer conferences.
13:37 Interview with Abigail O'Bryan
33.21 Parting Words
Did I mention WriterCon yet? Of course I did. Come join us! Take your writing dreams to the next level.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
0:00 Opening Thoughts
You are cordially invited to WriterCon, our annual writers conference, this year at the Skirvin Hilton in Oklahoma City over Labor Day weekend, starting Friday, August 29. Over 60 speakers and over 100 sessions, pitching, contests, manuscript reviews, private consultations, etc. But the best thing about it is that this is a real community of writers, people eager to help, people who have your back and understand the challenges of being a writer in today’s world. I think people are often surprised by how warm and welcoming the group is, and how many friends they make and keep after the conference is over.
04:36 News
1) AI Whistleblower Act Proposed
2) You Might Be Able to Copyright Your Face
11:07 Craft Corner
This week's writing craft chat comes from Friend of the Podcast Betsey Kulakowski, author of the bestselling Veritas Codex series and a new book, The Veil of Secrets. Today she addresses the gigantic benefit of attending writer conferences.
13:37 Interview with Abigail O'Bryan
33.21 Parting Words
Did I mention WriterCon yet? Of course I did. Come join us! Take your writing dreams to the next level.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Writing groups, Get into writing group, maybe multiple.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award
winning author of the want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you, Jesse Orrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's August now, first podcast of the month.
So of course you know we're going to talk about
writer Con, the annual writers conference we host this year
at the Scurvin Hilton and Oklahoma City over Labor Day weekend.
See Jesse's already ready to go.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm excited. I like that hotel.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It's Friday, August twenty. Well, it's both historic and haunted.
Perfect hotel. Yeah, you guys have probably already heard me
talk about having over sixty speakers coming and over one
hundred sessions of this and that and the other thing,
and pitching and contests, manuscript reviews, private consultations, et cetera.
(01:14):
But you know what the coolest thing is, the best
thing about all this is that it really is a
genuine community of writers. It's like people eager to help,
people who have your back, and they understand the challenges
of being a writer in today's world. I think people
are often surprised by how warm and welcoming the group
(01:37):
is and how many friends they make and may keep
after the conference is over. I don't know, Laura, have
you made any friends at writer Cons?
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Yes, yes, absolutely. I met a couple of new people
just last year that I'm still in touch with and
that I've gone to have coffee with and have gone
to see some Shakespeare with. Honestly, it kind of feels
more like a family reunion to me when we meet up.
I feel very close to most of the people who
(02:08):
come to our conferences.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Jesse, you, of course, are so standoffish that that's just
a joke. Do you have a writer con personal experience
that stands out in memory?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
One individual one? I mean mostly I do enjoy the
karaoke night.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
That's what I was to say. So I guess we're
gonna have to do it again. We've been debating it,
but you may have just ended the division.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I don't want to listen. I just like to watch.
I did have I have participated in the past.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Just want to have fun.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That was a memory.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I had met those people that night twenty minutes earlier.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
So like friendly conference.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Writer con The people who I had not met before,
we were just sitting at the same table and we
just instantly bonded over like what songs you would do
at karaoke?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And then one of them happened.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
So you meet me, I'll tell you right now. In
the app, there's a current debate about which song we
will duet Bill.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We have been dwelling the last several years, haven't we.
Last year it was that number from Greece. You're the
one that I want for that I Got You Babe, yeah,
Sonny bono, which came very naturally actually, and.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Then it was Summer Love.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah, we like that grease.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think I think it'd be funny just to do
I Got You Babe over and over and over again
every years.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Very throw things at us. Okay, people, we can't decide
what song we should do this year, so put it
in the comments. What do you think we should Laura
and I should sing at Ryder Coon this year? Okay?
Important stuff, yep, yep, absolutely okay. And the website is
(04:02):
writercon dot com. Our interview today is with Abigail O'Brien.
She's a breakout fantasy author who not coincidentally, is speaking
at writer Con this year. She has recently released her
first novel called Iron Rose. It's a dark young adult
reimagining of Beauty and the Beast with some hunger games
(04:25):
mixed in there. It's getting rave reviews. We will talk
to her about the book, her writing, how she got published,
but first the news news story number one. Grassley introduces
(04:54):
AI Whistleblower Protection Act. I put this in because I
felt we probably and talk. We didn't talk about AI
at all on the last episode. So here we are again.
Senate Judiciary Committee Chair Chuck Grassley, Republican from Iowa, introduced
this AI Whistleblower Protection Act. The ideas to provide explicit
(05:20):
protections to whistleblowers to those developing and using AI. So
right now, you know people could be punished, they could
be subject to NDA's and all of that creates a
chilling effect on the industry. So here we're going to
(05:41):
deal with AI in a different way through potential whistleblowing. Jesse,
you're the only one here I think is qualified to
speak about this, Okay, and you've probably used AI more
than Laura, so at least i'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, of course it is. I mean I wish they would.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It's one of those things where, yes, we should, of
course protect whistleblowers. But like, the one thing America does
not have that other Western democracies have is actual privacy
protections rent into their laws, Like we need to protect
ourselves from all of our stuff being used. That then
companies then want to charge us for trained off the
(06:25):
things we've already done, Like we should be able to
control what of ours is on the internet. I know
this relates to another story we're about to do, but yeah,
whistleblower should always be protecting I know, I did, I did,
I did. Yeah, of course this is a good idea.
And you know, listen, props to Chuck Grassley, who's not
of an age to really think about AI that much.
(06:46):
I'm glad someone on the staff is like, we should
protect these people who could be gaining this information.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
We don't know what these companies are doing.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I don't want to be the anti corporation guy, but yikes,
I feel the same way.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Yes, yes, I do as much. I don't. I don't
use AI. I've caught a couple of students using on
papers and I don't appreciate that. But most of all,
I know a lot of writers whose work is being
skimmed and used, and they're not happy about it. And
(07:25):
I do think that protections are paramount. All right, And
I have a cat here? Sorry, well, lucky you jumping
against my computer?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Do we need to take a break so you can
boot him out?
Speaker 5 (07:38):
It's her? No, okay, I can't blame her.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
You can edit the cat stuff out later.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That's what the people want.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
If I thought you corporate, i'd pick her up and
show her off. She's just the most darling, beautiful little thing,
my little lady Winifred. But she's off looking at cats.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Now words and news story number two. Here's when you
maybe didn't see coming. You may be able to copyright
your own face. Why and who's ever even thought about
that before? Anyway? As Jesse said, this is about AI, which,
(08:22):
as you've probably heard, has made it possible for about
anybody with some computer skills to make a super realistic
clone of you doing or saying whatever. It's what they
call a deep fake. Denmark, the country of Denmark, however,
has a new solution that nobody else has tried before,
(08:44):
and that is giving everyone the right to copyright their
own face and voice, and then they brand a little
C with a circle around it on your for it. No,
they don't have to do that. You've just cover you know,
the cop right symbol. Yeah, oh, well, anyway, you don't
have to do that, but you can copyright your face
(09:06):
and your voice. This is a pioneering ideal idea. But
the idea, of course, is to give people more control
over their likeness by expanding it into the realm of
copyright law, control your own body in a whole different way.
And it's first of it's kind in Europe. Okay, Laura,
(09:27):
your face should be copyrighted just because it's so gorgeous.
But do you think this Denmark law is a good idea?
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I like anything that stops exploitation. I just don't like
to see anyone exploited, So I'm intrigued. I would like
for us to follow this and see how it works
for Denmark, although I can't imagine we could make it
happen here right now, but I'm interested with it.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Yeah, Jesse, what do you think I'm guessing you're not totally.
I mean, some deep fakes could be harmless if it's
done in fun at I guess.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, I do love the Star Trek defics, for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
But if losing those is the cost of making sure
that we both citizens, politicians, leaders aren't deep faked and
we have a legal mechanism for stopping those, I'm one
hundred percent on board for that.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Fun is subjective. One person thinks is fun, somebody else
could find offensive or and anyone might be bothered if
their images being used in a way that they don't
approve of or weren't in on. That feels very intrusive.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I mean, I doubt either of you watched the one
South Park episode they released for their newest season that
involves some dep fakes of our president. And actually, okay, good, delightful.
You know, I don't want that to be out loud,
but you know my face, Yes, don't run for office, Yeah,
don't worry for office.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
All right, let's move on to Kraft Corner because this
time around, we've got a return visit from friend of
the podcast, Betsy Kolakowski, author of the best selling Barrettas
Codex series, and she's also got a new book out
called The Veil of Secrets. Today she addresses and I
(11:26):
believe me, you won't believe me. But just to be clear,
believe I did not tell her to address this subject.
But the timing is perfect. She's talking about the gigantic
benefit of it to writers of attending writing conferences. So
take it away, Betsy.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Craft Corner Hey, writer Con Family. Betsy Kolakowski, best selling
author of the Veritas Codex paranormal thriller series. And if
you're a writer, whether you're just getting started or you
have a slew of books on the show, the one
investment in your career as a writer that pays off
consistently is attending writers' conferences. And for me, writer con
is the best, and here's why. It's where I got
(12:10):
my start and it can help you too. Writing can
be a very solitary pursuit. It's easy to doubt yourself
when you don't have any kind of feedback, when you
don't have an audience and you don't have a path
to publication. I had at least a dozen manuscripts sitting
by in a folder and had no path to get
them published, no idea what to do with them or
if there were even any good Until I started attending
(12:32):
writers' conferences. The first one I attended was the Roe
State Writers Conference, which later became the Red Stinker Writer's Conference,
which later became writer Con, and now it is the
one conference that is on my agenda every year, every
Labor Day weekend. Don't ask me to go to the Lake.
I will be at writer Con every year without fail.
I got my start there because that's where I found
(12:54):
my tribe. I met other writers, I met industry professionals,
and I learned the lessons that were offered and I
became a better writer as a result. And because of that,
I found my publisher, and I got my books published
and I got started as a professional writer. And now
I'm doing it full time. I've retired from the day
job and I'm writing all the time, new books coming
(13:16):
out right and left. And that's why you should come
to writer Con, because you find your tribe and you
can't do this alone, and there are people there who
will help you. So I hope that I will see
you this year Labor Day weekend at writer Con, and
if not this conference, maybe I'll see it another conference
down the road. But every year, I will be at
writer Con and I hope you will be too.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Thank you so much, Betsy. Now let's talk to Abigail O'Brien.
I'igaela O'Brien. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Oh, thank you for coming. Okay, we always ask the
same first question, if you can offer writers one piece
of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Writing groups? Get into a writing group, maybe multiple. I
feel like positive peer pressure has been absolutely invaluable. And
then you never know with networking, like who's going to
be the first person to make a connection that's going
to be helpful to you in the future, Or maybe
these people are going to be your critique partners. Maybe
(14:27):
they're just going to be cheerleaders for you, and obviously
you're doing that for them too, Right, writing.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The perfect answer to give when we're talking about writer Con,
which you are of course coming to and we're less
than a month away. Remind everyone, what are you going
to be doing at writer Con.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I am going to be teaching a couple courses, so
marketing for introverts on the business side, it.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Would be like everyone who ever thought to write a book, right,
I have.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
A man I remember having the thought when of as
creating this course that like, gone are the Austinian days
where you get to be anonymous and slide a manuscript
under a publisher's door and disappear Like that's just not
how it goes anymore. But I think a lot of
us wish.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Of course, in those days you also would have been
paid peanuts and wouldn't have been able to sign your
own contracts, So there's some given there, and like if you.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Were a woman, maybe it would go so well either.
You know, there are a lot of there are a
lot of ways where the modern world is better. But
the unfortunate truth is that even introverts have to market.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Okay, marketing for introverts, it will help with that, And
I think I cut you off. Was there something else?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yes? And then so two other courses more on the
writing side, so thrilling action scenes that make sense. I
even though my novel is primarily a beauty in the
beast retelling, it has gotten recognition both nationally and internationally
for its action. And so I am bringing that expertise
(16:06):
in and really laying out not formulas, but more of
a framework for how to make really clear, engaging action
regardless of the genre of your book. And then the
last class that I'm doing is using nature to create
monsters and magic. And I'm so excited about this one.
(16:31):
Nature is so weird, and I feel like this is
just going to help give the tools that you need
to be able to do your own research and figure
out how to extrapolate these natural phenomenas to be able
to make just weird and impactful monsters and magic systems.
(16:53):
I think that one is just going to be a
load of fud.
Speaker 5 (16:56):
I'm going to just added that one to my agenda.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
You do that on the app I'm coming thing. I
don't really understand it, but it's cool. App sound like
great classes. So tell us how'd you get started writing?
Speaker 6 (17:11):
Well?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Was it something you always wanted to do or go ahead? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, I was a reader, which I think is a
lot of people's answers.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I imagine somebody who wants to be a writer but
doesn't read, forget it. I don't think that's happening.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, So that's where it all started for me, And
I think what really cemented it in for me is
just learning that I am not particularly good at anything
where you're supposed to come to a specific answer. And
I was pretty good at anything where I could like
(17:48):
extrapolate and synthesize and be able to like explain why
this was my take. So geometry not so much for me.
Language arts was a yes. So I just kind of
leaned in hard to the things that I actually was
good at. And I found that a lot of the
stuff that I was writing for myself, primarily my classmates,
(18:13):
were really enjoying, and so I began to do that
a little bit more seriously. And then I found a
story that I was really invested in, and that is
Iron Rose. So that has actually that's the story that
made me decide, like, this is the career that I
want to have, this is what I want to pursue educationally.
(18:36):
And here we are today.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Yeah, and that's your debut novel, which you managed to
not only write but sell. While I think you're married,
you've got two children. I think you're also house shopping.
How do you find i'me to write?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Oh? I think in a lot of ways, I'm still
learning how to do that. I have had to put
into the fires this idea that there's just going to
be one system and one rhythm that works for me,
and maybe it's maybe it's different for different people. I
(19:17):
certainly know people who like faithfully wake up at like
five in the morning. I'm not one of them. If
I wake up in five five in the morning, I'm
a basket case all day. That's not when I'm going
to start being created. But no, I think the reality
is that I write at writing group, and I try
to set aside times for myself. But also I acknowledge
(19:39):
that there there are months where I don't write because
I am doing other things. So, for instance, leading up
to this conference, there's a number of things that I
need to get done, and I know that my creative
bucket gets poured out with marketing, with like hiding classes,
(20:01):
that kind of stuff. And so I know now that
I need to not pressure myself to be writing creatively
while I have those other things going on. And so
once like after writer con that the fall is set
aside for me to be writing.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Well, let's talk about this debut novel, Iron Rose. You
mentioned and this is in the PR two that it's
sort of a Beauty and the Beast retelling with maybe
a little Hunger Games mixed in. Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, there you go, beating the Beast meets Hunger Games.
So it's a standalone. Yeah, it's a standalone, so you
get closure. There's no spice, but there's swoony romance, really
deep characters. I feel like the love story is really
meaningful and real. I've also had a number of people
(20:56):
reach out saying that they really relate to the main
female character who has to be strong for other people
and really give up a lot of herself in order
to protect the people and the things that she loves,
and just the exhaustion that she carries. Which I'm someone
(21:18):
who writes happy endings, so you can know that it's
gonna end hopefully. But ultimately it is it's a book
about hope, and so if you need something that has short,
punchy chapters with action that pulls you through with romance,
maybe something that you can read with your spouse, like
(21:39):
this is. I've had men and women really enjoy this book.
But if ultimately you need something right now that is
going to affirm that even when the world and people
are very broken and hurting, that there is hope and
there's real goodness, this might be the book for you.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Speaking of your pr materials, they also mentioned that you
are a big fan of Anglo Saxon poetry. I'm not
sure I've ever heard that.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
From any that hasn't come up before.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Or maybe outside of the podcast either, So I'm very intrigued.
Tell me about that, is that that's something that is true?
And how did how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So this makes me laugh because in my I believe
this was my freshman year, I was like, gung ho, sorry,
freshman year of college. I had decided, like, okay, Ian
Rose is really worth like doing. Well, I'm gonna, like,
I'm going to go to college for a creative writing degree,
(22:48):
and I'm going to figure out how to like just
do it, and I'm going to get it done. I'm
going to get it published. And then I find out
that fifty percent of my coursework is poetry and I
was incensed.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
And that's just part of the degree plan of that.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
That yeah, university, And so I hope not too precociously,
but like, I really have to know why I'm learning
something in order to engage with it. I asked my
professor just like in the middle of class. This was
not private. I was like, so, why why are we
(23:27):
doing poetry when like basically the entire class was there
to write stories, and she was like, poetry is the
art of expressing with beauty a whole concept in a
very short amount of words. Do you think that would
(23:50):
be valuable for you as a prose writer? And of
course I was like, nice, I'll sit down out, let's
get to work. And so it was through that course
that I encountered Anglo Saxon. Anglo Saxon poetry, and the
thing that I love about it is that it doesn't
(24:13):
have end rhymes. That's not where the poetry comes from.
The poetry comes from alliteration. And so this is something
that like, no one is going to notice this, no
one except for me. But the Beast character he has
a curse that has made him beastly inform but also
(24:35):
it is actively like trying to take over his mind.
And whenever the animal, which is what I call that,
whenever the animal takes over, I actually do Anglo Saxon
like a lot of alliteration, because for me, when I
was writing it, I was tapping into Grendel.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Okay, tell me that your beast wasn't cursed because he
was rude to a lady at the door when he
was four. Okay, because that's just that never seemed right
to me. Thank you, I'll thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's that's where the whole story started. So I'm so
glad that you brought that up. I have gotten a
lot of I guess the most common feedback that I
get on this book is like, this is Beauty and
the Beast, and also it's unlike any Beauty in the
Beast retelling I've ever read before. And I think the
(25:26):
reason for that is that I took the questions that
I had about the fairy tale, like, you know, if
you're looking at like the Disney movie. I've read the
other ones too, obviously, but like, if you look at
the Disney movie and you do the math based off
of the songs and the outfit changes and the rose
and all that kind of stuff, the Enchantress curses a
(25:50):
fifth grader for not letting her in, which seems evil,
And so that was a total shift for me because
I'm like, that means that the Beast character doesn't deserve
to be cursed. It means that they had the Enchantress
had some ulterior motive. What happens when the monarchy disappears
and someone with that kind of power and that kind
(26:12):
of malice is left, and then for the Bell character,
my question is like, Okay, if that's the environment she's
growing up in, what kind of person is she, especially
because she needs to be someone who can be in
the same room as a beast and then fall in
love with them reasonably. And so that's where the entirety
(26:37):
of Iron Rose was born from. Was like, I love
this fairy tale and I just wanted to reach into
the holes and pull out a story that had a
cohesive and satisfying narrative.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
You made it better. It's an update, right, Yeah, I
mean that's what you hope for.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
I'm intrigued. I think I'm gonna have to read this one.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Great.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I've read that you live in the shadow of the
Wasatch Range. Where is that Salt Lake City?
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (27:09):
Okay, we've flown through there.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
It's worth the stop, truly. The mountains are gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, been there, but not in a while. What's a
normal writing day look like for you, Abigail? Now? I
realize you don't always write, but when you are writing,
what's the day look like?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I so I tend not to do like full writing
days unless I'm at a writing retreat, which I try
to do a couple times a year. I know some people,
like my husband, for instance, he can sit down and
be like, ah, eight hours and then just like go.
That's not how I function. What I tend to do
is a cycle of like I'll listen to music that
(27:59):
feels in tune with what I'm trying to figure out.
I'll pre write a scene, and sometimes that's on my phone.
If I'm feeling distracted and fidgety, I will write on
my phone because I already want to pick it up,
and then that way I'm getting something down. And whenever
I'm writing on my phone or writing on a piece
(28:20):
of paper, there are just some inhibitions that aren't there
for me, like they are whenever I'm sitting at a computer.
So I will usually pre write something like that and
then I will go in and actually write the scene.
Now I don't write linearly. I kind of I haven't
(28:45):
heard a method for this. I mean quilting has been
thrown out there. But basically I tend to start in
the middle because I know people are like, oh, no,
like the mucky middle. It's all I don't know, just
like hard to figure out. But for me, I love
the middle. The middle is like where all of the
(29:05):
sweetness happens for me, and so I start there and
then I sort of bleed out and figure out like,
in order for this to be impactful, it means that
it has to be going in this direction. So the
ending needs to be kind of like this. And then
in order for this to be important, then it means
that it needs to be set up in the beginning.
(29:26):
And so it's kind of chaos. I would love to
say that it's not chaos, but that's how That's how
I end up writing. And basically I'm accompanied by a
lot of coffee.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
And coffee's good, yeah, especially if you don't like getting
up early in the morning.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Right, process, Like, how do you approach a new project?
So when you're actually writing, you start in the middle,
you work way out. Do you have it mapped out already?
Have you outlined things? Or are you more of like
a kind of write it as you go?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I guess I'm kind of a write it as I go.
I am neither a plotter nor a pantser.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Which category to know it?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Man, this is the story of my life. It's like
the Ven diagram is like, here's one circle of like
what is generally accepted and known. Here's the other circle,
And I'm like, is there hold on raising my hand?
Is there an in between? Because I'm not in either,
But yeah, I essentially there are keystone scenes. Currently I'm
(30:39):
doing fairy tale retellings, and so what I start with
is that same kind of process that I was talking
about with Iron Rose, which is like, what are the
things that I think are essential to the story that
have to stay and what are the things that I
feel like need to go. And with fairy tales, a
lot of it is like, hey, that's super problematic.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
So for instance, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I am currently working on a gender bent sleeping beauty
retelling where there's a cursed king and a thread witch
and the like. Gender Bent came in very early on
because I was like, you know what, super problematic men
thinking that they can kiss women when they're asleep.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
We're not going to do We're just not going to
do that in the case of snow White, but whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Right right, there's just all sorts of weirdness with that,
and so obviously I want to like, I'm still making
sure that it is consensual, but making sure that like
we're just not going to perpetuate some of those things,
so I isolate what those things are where I'm like, well,
these things have to change, and then there's a lot
(31:55):
of stuff that I get to play with, Like the
whole magic system is based off of like threads and spindles,
because I thought that would be a fun way to
nod to the fairy tale while expanding on stuff that
just really isn't touched on.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So is that what we should expect to see from
you next? Yes, God, but it's work in progress, right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I will say many people have many projects at one time.
I just hold one little flame in my hand at
a time, and I carry it until I can find
a torch for it, and then I let it go
and then I go find another little flame. But like,
I don't carry multiple at a time. My brain just
(32:43):
doesn't switch back and forth.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Although you have a family, so it must a little.
But I understand what you're saying. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Actually, whenever you said writing day and I was like,
I don't do eight hours, I was also thinking, like,
part of my writing process is really just getting interrupt
did a lot, which makes it difficult to get to follow.
So I don't recommend it, but it is part of
my writing day.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah, all right, Well we have to wrap this up unfortunately,
but it's been a pleasure and thank you and I
look forward to seeing you in very short time at
writer Con.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm
really looking forward to it.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Bye bye bye. Just a few parting words. Writer Con
(33:43):
August twenty nine to September one, Oklahoma City at the
historic and Haunted Scurf in Hilton Laura and I will
be there, Jesse'll be there, Abigail will be there, and
about sixty other writers and agents and publishers and people
connected to the publishing industry. You can review the schedule
on our website. It's writercon dot com.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Is this won't be there? He's very upset about it.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Is this the year you take writing from something you
think about in your spare time to something you actually
do regularly and successfully. If so, think about joining us
at writer Con. All right, until next time, keep writing,
and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
(34:35):
See you next time.
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Writing groups, Get into writing group, maybe multiple.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award
winning author of the want lnd Files book series.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Thank you, Jesse Orrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's August now, first podcast of the month.
So of course you know we're going to talk about
writer Con, the annual writers conference we host this year
at the Scurvin Hilton and Oklahoma City over Labor Day weekend.
See Jesse's already ready to go.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm excited. I like that hotel.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It's Friday, August twenty. Well, it's both historic and haunted.
Perfect hotel. Yeah, you guys have probably already heard me
talk about having over sixty speakers coming and over one
hundred sessions of this and that and the other thing,
and pitching and contests, manuscript reviews, private consultations, et cetera.
(01:14):
But you know what the coolest thing is, the best
thing about all this is that it really is a
genuine community of writers. It's like people eager to help,
people who have your back, and they understand the challenges
of being a writer in today's world. I think people
are often surprised by how warm and welcoming the group
(01:37):
is and how many friends they make and may keep
after the conference is over. I don't know, Laura, have
you made any friends at writer Cons?
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Yes, yes, absolutely. I met a couple of new people
just last year that I'm still in touch with and
that I've gone to have coffee with and have gone
to see some Shakespeare with. Honestly, it kind of feels
more like a family reunion to me when we meet up.
I feel very close to most of the people who
(02:08):
come to our conferences.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Jesse, you, of course, are so standoffish that that's just
a joke. Do you have a writer con personal experience
that stands out in memory?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
One individual one? I mean mostly I do enjoy the
karaoke night.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
That's what I was to say. So I guess we're
gonna have to do it again. We've been debating it,
but you may have just ended the division.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I don't want to listen. I just like to watch.
I did have I have participated in the past.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Just want to have fun.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That was a memory.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I had met those people that night twenty minutes earlier.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
So like friendly conference.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a great.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Writer con The people who I had not met before,
we were just sitting at the same table and we
just instantly bonded over like what songs you would do
at karaoke?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And then one of them happened.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
So you meet me, I'll tell you right now. In
the app, there's a current debate about which song we
will duet Bill.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
We have been dwelling the last several years, haven't we.
Last year it was that number from Greece. You're the
one that I want for that I Got You Babe, yeah,
Sonny bono, which came very naturally actually, and.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Then it was Summer Love.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah, we like that grease.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think I think it'd be funny just to do
I Got You Babe over and over and over again
every years.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Very throw things at us. Okay, people, we can't decide
what song we should do this year, so put it
in the comments. What do you think we should Laura
and I should sing at Ryder Coon this year? Okay?
Important stuff, yep, yep, absolutely okay. And the website is
(04:02):
writercon dot com. Our interview today is with Abigail O'Brien.
She's a breakout fantasy author who not coincidentally, is speaking
at writer Con this year. She has recently released her
first novel called Iron Rose. It's a dark young adult
reimagining of Beauty and the Beast with some hunger games
(04:25):
mixed in there. It's getting rave reviews. We will talk
to her about the book, her writing, how she got published,
but first the news news story number one. Grassley introduces
(04:54):
AI Whistleblower Protection Act. I put this in because I
felt we probably and talk. We didn't talk about AI
at all on the last episode. So here we are again.
Senate Judiciary Committee Chair Chuck Grassley, Republican from Iowa, introduced
this AI Whistleblower Protection Act. The ideas to provide explicit
(05:20):
protections to whistleblowers to those developing and using AI. So
right now, you know people could be punished, they could
be subject to NDA's and all of that creates a
chilling effect on the industry. So here we're going to
(05:41):
deal with AI in a different way through potential whistleblowing. Jesse,
you're the only one here I think is qualified to
speak about this, Okay, and you've probably used AI more
than Laura, so at least i'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, of course it is. I mean I wish they would.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It's one of those things where, yes, we should, of
course protect whistleblowers. But like, the one thing America does
not have that other Western democracies have is actual privacy
protections rent into their laws, Like we need to protect
ourselves from all of our stuff being used. That then
companies then want to charge us for trained off the
(06:25):
things we've already done, Like we should be able to
control what of ours is on the internet. I know
this relates to another story we're about to do, but yeah,
whistleblower should always be protecting I know, I did, I did,
I did. Yeah, of course this is a good idea.
And you know, listen, props to Chuck Grassley, who's not
of an age to really think about AI that much.
(06:46):
I'm glad someone on the staff is like, we should
protect these people who could be gaining this information.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
We don't know what these companies are doing.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I don't want to be the anti corporation guy, but yikes,
I feel the same way.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Yes, yes, I do as much. I don't. I don't
use AI. I've caught a couple of students using on
papers and I don't appreciate that. But most of all,
I know a lot of writers whose work is being
skimmed and used, and they're not happy about it. And
(07:25):
I do think that protections are paramount. All right, And
I have a cat here? Sorry, well, lucky you jumping
against my computer?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Do we need to take a break so you can
boot him out?
Speaker 5 (07:38):
It's her? No, okay, I can't blame her.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
You can edit the cat stuff out later.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That's what the people want.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
If I thought you corporate, i'd pick her up and
show her off. She's just the most darling, beautiful little thing,
my little lady Winifred. But she's off looking at cats.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Now words and news story number two. Here's when you
maybe didn't see coming. You may be able to copyright
your own face. Why and who's ever even thought about
that before? Anyway? As Jesse said, this is about AI, which,
(08:22):
as you've probably heard, has made it possible for about
anybody with some computer skills to make a super realistic
clone of you doing or saying whatever. It's what they
call a deep fake. Denmark, the country of Denmark, however,
has a new solution that nobody else has tried before,
(08:44):
and that is giving everyone the right to copyright their
own face and voice, and then they brand a little
C with a circle around it on your for it. No,
they don't have to do that. You've just cover you know,
the cop right symbol. Yeah, oh, well, anyway, you don't
have to do that, but you can copyright your face
(09:06):
and your voice. This is a pioneering ideal idea. But
the idea, of course, is to give people more control
over their likeness by expanding it into the realm of
copyright law, control your own body in a whole different way.
And it's first of it's kind in Europe. Okay, Laura,
(09:27):
your face should be copyrighted just because it's so gorgeous.
But do you think this Denmark law is a good idea?
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I like anything that stops exploitation. I just don't like
to see anyone exploited, So I'm intrigued. I would like
for us to follow this and see how it works
for Denmark, although I can't imagine we could make it
happen here right now, but I'm interested with it.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Yeah, Jesse, what do you think I'm guessing you're not totally.
I mean, some deep fakes could be harmless if it's
done in fun at I guess.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, I do love the Star Trek defics, for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
But if losing those is the cost of making sure
that we both citizens, politicians, leaders aren't deep faked and
we have a legal mechanism for stopping those, I'm one
hundred percent on board for that.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Fun is subjective. One person thinks is fun, somebody else
could find offensive or and anyone might be bothered if
their images being used in a way that they don't
approve of or weren't in on. That feels very intrusive.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
I mean, I doubt either of you watched the one
South Park episode they released for their newest season that
involves some dep fakes of our president. And actually, okay, good, delightful.
You know, I don't want that to be out loud,
but you know my face, Yes, don't run for office, Yeah,
don't worry for office.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
All right, let's move on to Kraft Corner because this
time around, we've got a return visit from friend of
the podcast, Betsy Kolakowski, author of the best selling Barrettas
Codex series, and she's also got a new book out
called The Veil of Secrets. Today she addresses and I
(11:26):
believe me, you won't believe me. But just to be clear,
believe I did not tell her to address this subject.
But the timing is perfect. She's talking about the gigantic
benefit of it to writers of attending writing conferences. So
take it away, Betsy.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Craft Corner Hey, writer Con Family. Betsy Kolakowski, best selling
author of the Veritas Codex paranormal thriller series. And if
you're a writer, whether you're just getting started or you
have a slew of books on the show, the one
investment in your career as a writer that pays off
consistently is attending writers' conferences. And for me, writer con
is the best, and here's why. It's where I got
(12:10):
my start and it can help you too. Writing can
be a very solitary pursuit. It's easy to doubt yourself
when you don't have any kind of feedback, when you
don't have an audience and you don't have a path
to publication. I had at least a dozen manuscripts sitting
by in a folder and had no path to get
them published, no idea what to do with them or
if there were even any good Until I started attending
(12:32):
writers' conferences. The first one I attended was the Roe
State Writers Conference, which later became the Red Stinker Writer's Conference,
which later became writer Con, and now it is the
one conference that is on my agenda every year, every
Labor Day weekend. Don't ask me to go to the Lake.
I will be at writer Con every year without fail.
I got my start there because that's where I found
(12:54):
my tribe. I met other writers, I met industry professionals,
and I learned the lessons that were offered and I
became a better writer as a result. And because of that,
I found my publisher, and I got my books published
and I got started as a professional writer. And now
I'm doing it full time. I've retired from the day
job and I'm writing all the time, new books coming
(13:16):
out right and left. And that's why you should come
to writer Con, because you find your tribe and you
can't do this alone, and there are people there who
will help you. So I hope that I will see
you this year Labor Day weekend at writer Con, and
if not this conference, maybe I'll see it another conference
down the road. But every year, I will be at
writer Con and I hope you will be too.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Thank you so much, Betsy. Now let's talk to Abigail O'Brien.
I'igaela O'Brien. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Oh, thank you for coming. Okay, we always ask the
same first question, if you can offer writers one piece
of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Writing groups? Get into a writing group, maybe multiple. I
feel like positive peer pressure has been absolutely invaluable. And
then you never know with networking, like who's going to
be the first person to make a connection that's going
to be helpful to you in the future, Or maybe
these people are going to be your critique partners. Maybe
(14:27):
they're just going to be cheerleaders for you, and obviously
you're doing that for them too, Right, writing.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
The perfect answer to give when we're talking about writer Con,
which you are of course coming to and we're less
than a month away. Remind everyone, what are you going
to be doing at writer Con.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I am going to be teaching a couple courses, so
marketing for introverts on the business side, it.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Would be like everyone who ever thought to write a book, right,
I have.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
A man I remember having the thought when of as
creating this course that like, gone are the Austinian days
where you get to be anonymous and slide a manuscript
under a publisher's door and disappear Like that's just not
how it goes anymore. But I think a lot of
us wish.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Of course, in those days you also would have been
paid peanuts and wouldn't have been able to sign your
own contracts, So there's some given there, and like if you.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Were a woman, maybe it would go so well either.
You know, there are a lot of there are a
lot of ways where the modern world is better. But
the unfortunate truth is that even introverts have to market.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Okay, marketing for introverts, it will help with that, And
I think I cut you off. Was there something else?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yes? And then so two other courses more on the
writing side, so thrilling action scenes that make sense. I
even though my novel is primarily a beauty in the
beast retelling, it has gotten recognition both nationally and internationally
for its action. And so I am bringing that expertise
(16:06):
in and really laying out not formulas, but more of
a framework for how to make really clear, engaging action
regardless of the genre of your book. And then the
last class that I'm doing is using nature to create
monsters and magic. And I'm so excited about this one.
(16:31):
Nature is so weird, and I feel like this is
just going to help give the tools that you need
to be able to do your own research and figure
out how to extrapolate these natural phenomenas to be able
to make just weird and impactful monsters and magic systems.
(16:53):
I think that one is just going to be a
load of fud.
Speaker 5 (16:56):
I'm going to just added that one to my agenda.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
You do that on the app I'm coming thing. I
don't really understand it, but it's cool. App sound like
great classes. So tell us how'd you get started writing?
Speaker 6 (17:11):
Well?
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Was it something you always wanted to do or go ahead? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, I was a reader, which I think is a
lot of people's answers.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I imagine somebody who wants to be a writer but
doesn't read, forget it. I don't think that's happening.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, So that's where it all started for me, And
I think what really cemented it in for me is
just learning that I am not particularly good at anything
where you're supposed to come to a specific answer. And
I was pretty good at anything where I could like
(17:48):
extrapolate and synthesize and be able to like explain why
this was my take. So geometry not so much for me.
Language arts was a yes. So I just kind of
leaned in hard to the things that I actually was
good at. And I found that a lot of the
stuff that I was writing for myself, primarily my classmates,
(18:13):
were really enjoying, and so I began to do that
a little bit more seriously. And then I found a
story that I was really invested in, and that is
Iron Rose. So that has actually that's the story that
made me decide, like, this is the career that I
want to have, this is what I want to pursue educationally.
(18:36):
And here we are today.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Yeah, and that's your debut novel, which you managed to
not only write but sell. While I think you're married,
you've got two children. I think you're also house shopping.
How do you find i'me to write?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Oh? I think in a lot of ways, I'm still
learning how to do that. I have had to put
into the fires this idea that there's just going to
be one system and one rhythm that works for me,
and maybe it's maybe it's different for different people. I
(19:17):
certainly know people who like faithfully wake up at like
five in the morning. I'm not one of them. If
I wake up in five five in the morning, I'm
a basket case all day. That's not when I'm going
to start being created. But no, I think the reality
is that I write at writing group, and I try
to set aside times for myself. But also I acknowledge
(19:39):
that there there are months where I don't write because
I am doing other things. So, for instance, leading up
to this conference, there's a number of things that I
need to get done, and I know that my creative
bucket gets poured out with marketing, with like hiding classes,
(20:01):
that kind of stuff. And so I know now that
I need to not pressure myself to be writing creatively
while I have those other things going on. And so
once like after writer con that the fall is set
aside for me to be writing.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Well, let's talk about this debut novel, Iron Rose. You
mentioned and this is in the PR two that it's
sort of a Beauty and the Beast retelling with maybe
a little Hunger Games mixed in. Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, there you go, beating the Beast meets Hunger Games.
So it's a standalone. Yeah, it's a standalone, so you
get closure. There's no spice, but there's swoony romance, really
deep characters. I feel like the love story is really
meaningful and real. I've also had a number of people
(20:56):
reach out saying that they really relate to the main
female character who has to be strong for other people
and really give up a lot of herself in order
to protect the people and the things that she loves,
and just the exhaustion that she carries. Which I'm someone
(21:18):
who writes happy endings, so you can know that it's
gonna end hopefully. But ultimately it is it's a book
about hope, and so if you need something that has short,
punchy chapters with action that pulls you through with romance,
maybe something that you can read with your spouse, like
(21:39):
this is. I've had men and women really enjoy this book.
But if ultimately you need something right now that is
going to affirm that even when the world and people
are very broken and hurting, that there is hope and
there's real goodness, this might be the book for you.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Speaking of your pr materials, they also mentioned that you
are a big fan of Anglo Saxon poetry. I'm not
sure I've ever heard that.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
From any that hasn't come up before.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Or maybe outside of the podcast either, So I'm very intrigued.
Tell me about that, is that that's something that is true?
And how did how did that come about?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So this makes me laugh because in my I believe
this was my freshman year, I was like, gung ho, sorry,
freshman year of college. I had decided, like, okay, Ian
Rose is really worth like doing. Well, I'm gonna, like,
I'm going to go to college for a creative writing degree,
(22:48):
and I'm going to figure out how to like just
do it, and I'm going to get it done. I'm
going to get it published. And then I find out
that fifty percent of my coursework is poetry and I
was incensed.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
And that's just part of the degree plan of that.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
That yeah, university, And so I hope not too precociously,
but like, I really have to know why I'm learning
something in order to engage with it. I asked my
professor just like in the middle of class. This was
not private. I was like, so, why why are we
(23:27):
doing poetry when like basically the entire class was there
to write stories, and she was like, poetry is the
art of expressing with beauty a whole concept in a
very short amount of words. Do you think that would
(23:50):
be valuable for you as a prose writer? And of
course I was like, nice, I'll sit down out, let's
get to work. And so it was through that course
that I encountered Anglo Saxon. Anglo Saxon poetry, and the
thing that I love about it is that it doesn't
(24:13):
have end rhymes. That's not where the poetry comes from.
The poetry comes from alliteration. And so this is something
that like, no one is going to notice this, no
one except for me. But the Beast character he has
a curse that has made him beastly inform but also
(24:35):
it is actively like trying to take over his mind.
And whenever the animal, which is what I call that,
whenever the animal takes over, I actually do Anglo Saxon
like a lot of alliteration, because for me, when I
was writing it, I was tapping into Grendel.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Okay, tell me that your beast wasn't cursed because he
was rude to a lady at the door when he
was four. Okay, because that's just that never seemed right
to me. Thank you, I'll thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's that's where the whole story started. So I'm so
glad that you brought that up. I have gotten a
lot of I guess the most common feedback that I
get on this book is like, this is Beauty and
the Beast, and also it's unlike any Beauty in the
Beast retelling I've ever read before. And I think the
(25:26):
reason for that is that I took the questions that
I had about the fairy tale, like, you know, if
you're looking at like the Disney movie. I've read the
other ones too, obviously, but like, if you look at
the Disney movie and you do the math based off
of the songs and the outfit changes and the rose
and all that kind of stuff, the Enchantress curses a
(25:50):
fifth grader for not letting her in, which seems evil,
And so that was a total shift for me because
I'm like, that means that the Beast character doesn't deserve
to be cursed. It means that they had the Enchantress
had some ulterior motive. What happens when the monarchy disappears
and someone with that kind of power and that kind
(26:12):
of malice is left, and then for the Bell character,
my question is like, Okay, if that's the environment she's
growing up in, what kind of person is she, especially
because she needs to be someone who can be in
the same room as a beast and then fall in
love with them reasonably. And so that's where the entirety
(26:37):
of Iron Rose was born from. Was like, I love
this fairy tale and I just wanted to reach into
the holes and pull out a story that had a
cohesive and satisfying narrative.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
You made it better. It's an update, right, Yeah, I
mean that's what you hope for.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
I'm intrigued. I think I'm gonna have to read this one.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Great.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I've read that you live in the shadow of the
Wasatch Range. Where is that Salt Lake City?
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (27:09):
Okay, we've flown through there.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
It's worth the stop, truly. The mountains are gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, been there, but not in a while. What's a
normal writing day look like for you, Abigail? Now? I
realize you don't always write, but when you are writing,
what's the day look like?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I so I tend not to do like full writing
days unless I'm at a writing retreat, which I try
to do a couple times a year. I know some people,
like my husband, for instance, he can sit down and
be like, ah, eight hours and then just like go.
That's not how I function. What I tend to do
is a cycle of like I'll listen to music that
(27:59):
feels in tune with what I'm trying to figure out.
I'll pre write a scene, and sometimes that's on my phone.
If I'm feeling distracted and fidgety, I will write on
my phone because I already want to pick it up,
and then that way I'm getting something down. And whenever
I'm writing on my phone or writing on a piece
(28:20):
of paper, there are just some inhibitions that aren't there
for me, like they are whenever I'm sitting at a computer.
So I will usually pre write something like that and
then I will go in and actually write the scene.
Now I don't write linearly. I kind of I haven't
(28:45):
heard a method for this. I mean quilting has been
thrown out there. But basically I tend to start in
the middle because I know people are like, oh, no,
like the mucky middle. It's all I don't know, just
like hard to figure out. But for me, I love
the middle. The middle is like where all of the
(29:05):
sweetness happens for me, and so I start there and
then I sort of bleed out and figure out like,
in order for this to be impactful, it means that
it has to be going in this direction. So the
ending needs to be kind of like this. And then
in order for this to be important, then it means
that it needs to be set up in the beginning.
(29:26):
And so it's kind of chaos. I would love to
say that it's not chaos, but that's how That's how
I end up writing. And basically I'm accompanied by a
lot of coffee.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
And coffee's good, yeah, especially if you don't like getting
up early in the morning.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Right, process, Like, how do you approach a new project?
So when you're actually writing, you start in the middle,
you work way out. Do you have it mapped out already?
Have you outlined things? Or are you more of like
a kind of write it as you go?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I guess I'm kind of a write it as I go.
I am neither a plotter nor a pantser.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Which category to know it?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Man, this is the story of my life. It's like
the Ven diagram is like, here's one circle of like
what is generally accepted and known. Here's the other circle,
And I'm like, is there hold on raising my hand?
Is there an in between? Because I'm not in either,
But yeah, I essentially there are keystone scenes. Currently I'm
(30:39):
doing fairy tale retellings, and so what I start with
is that same kind of process that I was talking
about with Iron Rose, which is like, what are the
things that I think are essential to the story that
have to stay and what are the things that I
feel like need to go. And with fairy tales, a
lot of it is like, hey, that's super problematic.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
So for instance, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I am currently working on a gender bent sleeping beauty
retelling where there's a cursed king and a thread witch
and the like. Gender Bent came in very early on
because I was like, you know what, super problematic men
thinking that they can kiss women when they're asleep.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
We're not going to do We're just not going to
do that in the case of snow White, but whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Right right, there's just all sorts of weirdness with that,
and so obviously I want to like, I'm still making
sure that it is consensual, but making sure that like
we're just not going to perpetuate some of those things,
so I isolate what those things are where I'm like, well,
these things have to change, and then there's a lot
(31:55):
of stuff that I get to play with, Like the
whole magic system is based off of like threads and spindles,
because I thought that would be a fun way to
nod to the fairy tale while expanding on stuff that
just really isn't touched on.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So is that what we should expect to see from
you next? Yes, God, but it's work in progress, right, Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I will say many people have many projects at one time.
I just hold one little flame in my hand at
a time, and I carry it until I can find
a torch for it, and then I let it go
and then I go find another little flame. But like,
I don't carry multiple at a time. My brain just
(32:43):
doesn't switch back and forth.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Although you have a family, so it must a little.
But I understand what you're saying. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Actually, whenever you said writing day and I was like,
I don't do eight hours, I was also thinking, like,
part of my writing process is really just getting interrupt
did a lot, which makes it difficult to get to follow.
So I don't recommend it, but it is part of
my writing day.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah, all right, Well we have to wrap this up unfortunately,
but it's been a pleasure and thank you and I
look forward to seeing you in very short time at
writer Con.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm
really looking forward to it.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Bye bye bye. Just a few parting words. Writer Con
(33:43):
August twenty nine to September one, Oklahoma City at the
historic and Haunted Scurf in Hilton Laura and I will
be there, Jesse'll be there, Abigail will be there, and
about sixty other writers and agents and publishers and people
connected to the publishing industry. You can review the schedule
on our website. It's writercon dot com.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Is this won't be there? He's very upset about it.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Is this the year you take writing from something you
think about in your spare time to something you actually
do regularly and successfully. If so, think about joining us
at writer Con. All right, until next time, keep writing,
and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
(34:35):
See you next time.
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