November 12, 2025 • 33 mins
Bestselling authors William Bernhardt (The Superman Wars)and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Courtney Psak, author of the new thriller The Tutor.
0:00 Opening Thoughts
The Crew talk about recent travels and debate whether Bill is tragically unhip.
4:23 News
The All-Lawsuit Edition!
1) Judge Declares Texas Book Rating Law Unconstiutional
2) Michael Wolff Sues Melania Trump for Allegedly Trying to Silence HIm
3) Big Five P{ublisher Sues the Heirs of Nelson DeMille
Note: when Bill talks about S&S paying $600 and some, he means $600,000+
15:18 Interview with Courtney Psak
32:02 Parting Words
Join us for the WriterCon Cruise! This time, we’re leaving from Ft Lauderdale for an eight-day cruise through the Eastern Caribbean, which is a new destination for us. So beautiful tropical vistas, plus over twenty hours of writing instruction from Bil, Lara, Betsey Kulakowski and agent Katharine Sands, who will happily talk to every participant. Don’t miss out. Plan now to be with us March 7-15. Visit the WriterCon website for more info. www.writercon.com/cruise
0:00 Opening Thoughts
The Crew talk about recent travels and debate whether Bill is tragically unhip.
4:23 News
The All-Lawsuit Edition!
1) Judge Declares Texas Book Rating Law Unconstiutional
2) Michael Wolff Sues Melania Trump for Allegedly Trying to Silence HIm
3) Big Five P{ublisher Sues the Heirs of Nelson DeMille
Note: when Bill talks about S&S paying $600 and some, he means $600,000+
15:18 Interview with Courtney Psak
32:02 Parting Words
Join us for the WriterCon Cruise! This time, we’re leaving from Ft Lauderdale for an eight-day cruise through the Eastern Caribbean, which is a new destination for us. So beautiful tropical vistas, plus over twenty hours of writing instruction from Bil, Lara, Betsey Kulakowski and agent Katharine Sands, who will happily talk to every participant. Don’t miss out. Plan now to be with us March 7-15. Visit the WriterCon website for more info. www.writercon.com/cruise
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I feel like I did things the hard way because
I didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery
Writers of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of
these organizations are so great when you're first, especially when
you're first starting out.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want Ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's good to be back here recording with
my peeps. People actually still say peeps. My embarrassing myself
is this.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Is like, those are two different questions.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
This is like I was going to say when I
was a kid, you're not that young old and like
the first iteration of teen Titans, Wonder Girl would be
saying things like, hey, let's go to that groovy happening
and wrap. I mean, even if you're eight, they're pretty
cringe inducing. I don't want to be that guy? Am
(01:17):
I that guy? Tell me the truth?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You're not that guy.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I noticed Laura is remaining silent. Whatever.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Okay, I think it's okay to say peeps.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Okay if you're talking about those easter candy things or
just any I.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Think in general, honestly, if those easter things would stop existing,
I'd be fine with that. But that's a personal thing.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's a whole different, won't Everybody here has been traveling, right,
like Jesse's been in Vegas, and Laura you've been in
Connecticut hanging with the daughters. Right, did you do anything
bookish bookstores, indie bookstores or a lot.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Of I got to eat Mystic pizza and went to
the Mystic Aquarium, and I hiked the Blue Gorge in
New Hampshire, But nothing really book related.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Now, lots of fun things, sound and Jesse you were
It's okay.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
I was okay with a break from from Okay, it's
a hockey game that was literary.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Sure, I feel like I feel like that's mean towards
hockey players.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Is also the whole.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And yeah, a hockey romance line we were talking.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
About at some good memory.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Good job, you called me the literary.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Italian one of us these episodes twice, so I.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Remember I even read one of them, so I really
should have remembered that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Sorry, the rest of us just show up right. Jesse's
the glue. Anyway, I was saying, so you were in
Vegas for this D and D thing?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
How I was this?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
How's that a spectator sport?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Again? It's an incredible feat of storytelling where this one
guy has to wrangle six of his improv friends to
complete a story from beginning middle to end in about
a three hour span in front of people, also involving
dice that can randomly take the story in one direction
versus another. It's it's a lot of fun. It's one
(03:30):
impressive when it's done well, and two it's a lot
of fun.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Do they have time limits or using the location has a.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Time limit? It's usually around eleven PM that most of
it is, though, even though this arena was inside the
MGM Grands, I don't know why they made us end
at eleven, but.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
We did, all right. Vacation time is over and now
we are going to talk about books sad and that
includes our interview today with Courtney sac author of a
new thriller titled The Tutor that people are calling Palm
Royal meets the White lotus and is exploring themes like
(04:10):
legacy and privilege and motherhood and she's fascinating to talk
to and listen to it. We'll be talking with her
very soon.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
But first the news.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So today we're having a special all litigation, all lawsuits
all the time. In addition to the news we cause
for excitement. We've got at least three different lawsuits in
the air that relate to writers, one positive, the other
two I don't know. I'm counting on my crack team
(04:58):
of analysts to explain it at all to me. That's
you Jesse and you Lara first, and what I'm going
to call a big victory for the First Amendment. After
two years of litigation about this House bill that would
allow book rating, a federal judge has granted somemary judgment
and ordered a permanent injunction to block the mandatory book
(05:22):
rating law. The court said the law is void for
vagueness and is also quote an unconstitutional prior restraint, which
is a fancy cool judicial way of saying it violates
the First Amendment. And most people thought this was a
good thing for writers and booksellers and publishers and readers
(05:44):
and everybody else team, Can we agree this is a
positive development?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yes, I mean is still.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Thinking thinly veiled way to ban books? The rating too
much like banning too Yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Were trying to formalize a way to bantertain books by
making them like R rated or whatever. Yeah, as we
know with movies doesn't really do a good job of
rating movies anyway.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Anyway, Why why bring it over to books?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Right, all right? News story number two or lawsuit number two?
I should say something that's even weirder. Author Michael Wolf
sues Milania Trump. Okay, we're going to discuss this team
without getting political in any way. I'm sure that will
muzzle all of you. But what's going on here? Why
(06:38):
is well known author nonfiction author Wolf suing Milania Well,
because she and her husband threatened to come after him.
He's working on a book. He's already done one what
was it, Fire and Fury? I think about Trump, And
now he's doing another one about them, and they're and
focusing on alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, not only by
(07:03):
him but by her. So she was threatening him with
a one billion dollar lawsuit. He's now suing her, saying
that her legal threats are this is a quote intended
to shut down legitimate inquiry into the Epstein murder. End quote.
So what I saw just two days ago as we're
recording this is that Michael Wolfe, who is you know,
(07:25):
seventy two years old, not somebody you expect to be
a big social media star, but he started doing this saga.
He looks straight into the camera and explains his points,
and that popularity from social media has translated into a
crowd funding campaign. As we sit here, he's raised over
(07:49):
half a million dollars which he plans to use to
And this is a quote depose the President and the
first lady end quote. So at what point did this
stop being about books and turn into something? I don't know,
Jesse that this is like a He's It's like wolf
(08:11):
is making a preemptive strike against someone who was at
least trying to intimidate him, if not silence him. What
do you think do you approve?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So listen without Gang. I can do this without Gang.
Clinical Oh good, Like this is a tactic that Donald
Trump has used in the past to silence people or
to stop bigger suits from coming. So using that tool
against him, I feel like in this case is appropriate,
So good on him.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Stand up to it. Laura, I think I heard you
murmur an assent or.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Something absolutely like in our first news story we were
talking about it. It's a way of banning books. This
is a this is trying to inhibit free speech, and
I don't approve. We should be able to investigate things
and find out exactly what happened, and there's there's not
(09:07):
a way available to us to truly get to the
truth of anything. If people are silencing those who are investigating,
journalists should be able to investigate, right.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
What's interesting to me is that if you know, if
this survives all the preliminary emotions and challenges and becomes
an ongoing lawsuit, Wolf would be entitled to take depositions
from the parties on the other side, like the current
president and first Lady. And I don't really you know,
they'd mess around and you have to schedule it, but
(09:40):
I don't think you'd avoid it. I remember Clinton was presidency.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
In civil cases, you can depose the president, so.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And if his subject is you know, the Epstein thing,
and it's not looking like those files are coming out
anytime soon, so wouldn't that be an interesting but it
also doesn't.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Look like this stories going away.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So yeah, all right. Lawsuit number three Simon and Schuster.
That's the Big five New York publisher is suing the
estate of author Nelson de mill I've met a bunch
of you will remember de mill On his many, many,
sometimes military, usually thrilleristic books very popular. So it turns
(10:23):
out late in life he signed a three book deal,
did the first two, but he didn't finish the third
book before he passed away. So now basically Simon and
Schuster is trying to recruit recoup the advance they paid
for the third book. They're saying, as well as money
they paid for an outline, because they paid six hundred
(10:46):
and something for you know, the book, and then six
hundred and something again just for the outline. Where is
that deal when I'm looking for it anyway? Digress, So
they want the money back his heerrors, his kids are
saying they never actually paid it. So they're trying to
(11:06):
get back something we know that we never actually received.
They're saying this is all about market sales. Impossible to
believe that the Big five would care about sales. But
here's a quote. Simon and Schuster wanted to escape what
it considered costly over market legacy pricing given the decreasing
(11:28):
profitability of the general major fiction market. End quote. So
you hear what they're saying there. They're saying Dad was
a legacy author getting paid those big advantages advances which
in today's market you could not possibly make it back.
They're just trying to get out of the deals, or
(11:48):
get out of the deal altogether because it didn't turn
out well. Jesse, what are your thoughts here?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, first of all, one, if they didn't actually pay
the family this or pay the author this, yeah, that
wouldn't make it quick. Yeah that that should be over
pretty quickly. Then let's done this. And if they did
pay the family and or they did pay the offer
this money, too bad, Like it's a contract you signed
with him, right he's dead, so like it.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Doesn't seem right to me that. But I guess when
millions are at stake, the rules change and they.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Do things they might not get know the circumstances. Yeah,
i'man sure the family could pay some of them back
if if, if they wanted to, But legally, morally, I don't.
I don't like I'm not on the Simon and Schuster
side most of the time anyway, But I'm definitely not
on their side here, Like, it's not like this is
just like universities who get mad when they have to
(12:45):
pay a coach that they fired their buy out claws.
You made the contract made, it's your fault.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, And they don't know for certain that the kids
would even inherit it enough yeah to cover this saying
what do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:02):
So, first of all, it seems like it should be
pretty easy to determine. There should be some record of
that payout. It's it's it seems odd to me that
that is even a point of contention. But sh see,
I see it as a little gray er. Yes, the
deal was made with the author. So we've always heard
(13:24):
that advances are just paid and then royalties sort of
pay out against that, and you don't make any royalties
until that's it, so you don't normally get asked to
return the advance. But that that was contingent upon receipt
of the third novel, which they didn't actually receive. But
(13:48):
now it's not the author, it's the somebody else airs
of the author, So oh, it's it's sticky. I don't love.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's like I said, it wouldn't exist, I think, except
millions are involved.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So also like by doing this lawsuit, they're putting this
author's name back out there, which is probably going to
drive book sales.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
You know there is that, so put them back on
the top of the charts. All right, let's move to
our Craft Corner segment, except, of course, as I'm about
to explain, there's not going to be a new Craft
Corner segment, and there's a reason we have a big
(14:29):
bit of bad news and sadness to convey to you.
This timing Craft Corner. One of our best friends and
best supporters has passed away, and that was John Myers.
It was very unexpected. He's been a writer con regular
for many years. He's a warm and wonderful person. We
(14:50):
already miss him. He did several Craft Corners and he
wrote the book Write Better Together. And we're really going
to anyway, So we're gonna let Craft Corner go silent
this time, thinking of him and his honor. But we
will be back next time with a terrific Craft Corner
(15:10):
segment from our good friend TAMRAA.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Grantham.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
All right, now, let's talk to Courtney Courtney Zach, Welcome
to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for having me, Thank.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
You know, I was thinking to myself, you know, I
feel like I did things the hard way because I
didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery Writers
of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of these
organizations are so great when you're especially when you're for
starting out, because not only is there a community there
critique writers, but also just when you're trying to look
(16:02):
into like forensics experts and you know, FBI police ride alongs,
all those things. It was just extremely helpful. And then
you know, finding events where you can actually pitch to
an agent in person rather than just kind of doing
the cold querying. So those are things I really wish
I had done earlier.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
On Yeah, very good points. Now you started as a writer.
You probably did other things, but you started writing for
writing and editing for magazines like Cosmo and other cool stuff. Right.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, so you know I went to school as a
journalists major. I really my whole you know, Devil Wars product,
fantasy of working in the magazine industry and writing books
on the side. So, yeah, I had interned for Cosmo
South Magazine. I was going for my master's in publishing
when I was working with Modern Bride, and then just unfortunately,
(16:56):
I graduated in two thousand and eight and financial crisis
hit and all of a sudden and all the job
opportunities went away. But you know, thankfully with a communications degree,
I pivoted to Nickelodeon and I was a project manager
there and you know, still you know, writing books on
the side.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
While I did that, right, and eventually that paid off,
I guess, right.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
But your first book was Thirty Days to Thirty Yeah,
I have a thriller, the Tutor. Can you tell us
about that?
Speaker 5 (17:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So the Tutor is about this woman named Rose. She's
a widow but a dedicated mother to her son, James.
You know, they're kind of all they have now. She's
a struggling artist, but they really never had a fam
you know, she never had a family before she was
an orphan. Her husband was a good father, but not
a good husband, and his family was out of the picture.
And you know, incomes this guy Grant, who sweeps her
(17:51):
off her feet and shortly after they get married, he
finds out that his mother, Evelyn, has been diagnosed with Parkinson,
so he asked if they'd be willing to move down
to Palm Beach to help her, and you know, she
wants to be a good wife, so that's what she does.
But the problem is is that Grant comes from a
very generational, wealthy family, and Evelyn's very much used to
getting her way, and she makes it very clear to
Rose early on that she doesn't think that she's good
(18:12):
enough for her for her son. She starts off with
bribery and then when that doesn't work, starts digging into
Rose's past and then finds something unsavory things and decides
to blackmail her. But Rose is obviously, you know, because
she grew up by herself. You know, she's tough as well,
and she while she knew Grant's father passed away twenty
years ago, she discovers that it was under suspicious circumstances,
(18:34):
so she thinks maybe Evelyn's got some skeletons in her
closet as well. Yeah, and insert Isabelle, who is you know,
about two years out of college. Her grandmother, who was
her only living relative, passes away and she discovers the
secret about the Caldwell family and becomes obsessed with them
and follows them from New York to Palm Beach, edging
(18:55):
her way up his tutor and starts to do a
little a little investigating on her own. And when she
starts demanding answers, you know, these three stories collide and
it just shakes this family's foundation to its very core.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
So where did you get the idea for that's? That
sounds like a lot. Is this based on something that
you actually heard about or some stories that truly happened,
or did you just invent it all?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I pretty much invented all, you know. I think kind
of the start of it comes with just trust. You know,
how how well can you trust the people that you
let into your home? You know? When we so I
was from New York, New Jersey area. We moved to
Palm Beach for my husband's job, and we didn't know
anybody here. So I had an eighteen month old son.
So if you need a babysitter, it wasn't even like
(19:42):
I had friends yet to like find a reference and
like care dot com is great with you know, having
background checks, but like my husband, I would be out
to dinner and we're still sitting there, Like what if
they kidnapp? I'm like, we would go and like come
check he's still in the bed, you know, So you
could just kind of think about those sort of things,
you know, with a tutor, it's not you know, it's
(20:03):
you feel like it's pretty harmless. Like she works at
the Sun's school because she managed to get a job
through maternity leave there, so all the right, you know,
like I said, Rose is a good mom. She did
her background check on her. But there's a time for everything.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Well, I listened. I love to listen to true crime podcasts,
and so, yes, this all makes sense to me.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And am I right in thinking this book is set
in the glittering world of Palm Beach?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Is that in an environment you know something about or
you write about.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, I live in Palm Beach, so it was, and
I moved here about six years ago, so I can
kind of, you know, tap into Rose and this coll
like coming into this brand new world and kind of
just how amazing it is. But you know, one of
the takeaways of my story is that you know, you
see Isabelle, Evelyn, and Rose, and they all come from
different walks of life and everything. But at the crux
(20:58):
of it, you know, nobody can just basic human emotions
and trauma, and everybody has their insecurities, their jealousies there,
so you know whether or not you agree with any
of these characters and their decisions. You start to really
understand the basis of it all and how you can't
really blame them. You understand why they're coming.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
From where they are, so you're not going to lose
all your friends as soon as your neighbors read this book.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I never try to. I don't want anyone for a
second to think that anything is based off of them.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yes, I know that feeling, but it still happens.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yes, No, it's anything. I feel like each of those
characters are just kind of more a little bit of me,
you know, even Evelyn.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You're kind of like, yes, completely get she.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Just doesn't care, and it's like only I could like
just not care and say some of the things that
she says.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
You know, and you know, but then people come to
you and they're like, wait, was that me?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Like, no, that was me.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
The book also clearly contains themes about privilege or legacy
if you will, and strong themes of motherhood intentional her
did that just come out in the writing?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The strong themes of motherhood definitely were intentional.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I loved putting Rose kind of in the middle of
this because she's, you know, she's trying to you know,
her art is everything to her and she's about to
kind of lose that, and so she's struggling to you know,
make sure she does well with that otherwise she you know,
that's all going to fall apart for her. She's got
this husband now that's you know, very adoring on her
(22:34):
and like wants her to be with him all the time,
and she's trying to find that balance like I want
to be with him and be good for him, but
I'm so used to being alone that you know, I
like to have my time for myself and.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
For my art.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So she's trying to find like, am I being you know,
too distant or am I being is he being too clinging?
And then of course she's worrying about her son, you know,
he he suddenly has this opportunity now that he's in
Palm Beach to at this school that's like the best
school in the country, and she just wants him to
keep up and That's why she hires the tutor, because
she wants him to do well, you know, but she
just feels like she's being pulled in three different directions.
(23:10):
And you know, we all deal with that struggle with
our deal trying to do all the things.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
So, so, how do you approach a new project? When
you're starting a new novel, do you outline? Do you
just kind of make some notes.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I'm usually a very big outliner. I like to know
exactly where I'm going, because otherwise I just wind up
writing myself into a corner. His story in particular was
kind of interesting because I had I had written it
and handed it off to my agent, and as I
kind of thought more about it, I was like, you know,
this one's a little too predictable, you know, like I
(23:49):
feel like I just kind of wrote it. And I
was saying earlier to someone else that I kind of
compare it to like when you're studying for a test.
The teacher to goes okay, you have to study for
a test. You're like, yeah, okay, and then it's like, yeah,
but the answers are going to be up here for
everyone to see what you wrote. And then you're like, oh,
I actually really need to go back and look at
it again. So when she had told me that editors
(24:10):
were interested in it, I was like, all right, I
need to fix this. It's not you know, they may
like the idea, but it's just it's too predictable in
too many ways. And so I went back and you know,
made Evelyn a character. It was normally a father in law,
and it just wasn't coming off right. And I love
the dynamic between Rose and Evelyn and all the undercurrents
which you could only get between a mother in law
(24:31):
and a daughter in law. And yeah, and then I
just went back and changed everything. So I got to
a point where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is too predictable.
How do I turn it on its head? And then
we went that direction. It's like, okay, now we're going
this way. And uh So this was the one time
where actually I did surprise myself in the end. Overall
I had somewhat of an outline, but the ending, I
was like, this isn't exciting enough.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
I need to do something else, and yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
What kind of came to me. But I really though, yeah, yeah,
so it's helpful. But I mean, people that our parents
as I'm like, oh, good for you, So I wish
I could do.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
No, I've had the exact same feeling. You're thinking about it,
right my planned ending and think, huh, that's kind of boring.
So the murderer is exactly who anybody with a brain
thought it was all along. No, that's not gonna work.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So normally, even with an outline, you know, my my,
you know, the who done it changes at the end,
but at least like halfway. I'm usually halfway or three
quarters of the way when I'm like, all right, we
got to turn this one more time, Like how can
we do that? About throwing a curveball? That doesn't make sense?
You know, you want everything to make sure that in
the end everyone's satisfied.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yes, that sounds very familiar. I'm like that, and I
think a lot of us are. We have that plan,
but then it will modify it as we write and
come up with more Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Better right, So yeah, and that like as long as
I had that, I don't have to be strict with
my outline. It's just I can't just sit down and go, Okay,
what am I going to do today, because then I'm just, yeah,
I'm going to get myself in a corner.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Yeah, but what does a typical writing day look like
for you? What's your process?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So, yeah, it kind of depends on where in the process.
If I'm trying to come up with an idea, you know,
living in Florida, can go for long walks and I'll
listen to like suspensible music because that keeps me, reminds
me like stop worrying about groceries and pick up and
like focus on the idea. And then I have the idea,
you know, I'll spend a week or two outlining, and
then I'll write like the first five chapters, you know,
(26:27):
the first ten thousand words I I'll write, and then
I kind of take a step back because even though
you have your characters in mind, those first ten thousand
words give you an idea of like, Okay, what kind
of you know, what direction do I want them to be?
Do I want them to be sassy? Do I want
them to be meek?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
What kind of character are? And once I have that settled,
you know, it's kind of off to the races. And
you know that's my favorite part when everything starts to flow,
and you know, I drop my kids off at school
and then I come back and I have to set
an alarm on my phone for when to pick them
up because the hours just fly by, right, which is
a lot of fun. But I write my first draft
is very, very bare bones, So it's just more focusing
(27:05):
on the plot, making sure that it makes sense, that
my characters make sense. And once that happens, I take
a step back and then I go back like a
week or two later, and that's when I like make
it pretty and do my descriptions and more of my setting.
And my agent is a former editor, so what's great
is that when I send it to her, she's able
to do a you know, once over before we go
(27:27):
on submission. But ninety percent of her edits are like
or her notes are like, you need to describe more.
What are they wearing? Because again I start so bare
goones at the beginning that she is to remind me, like,
you got to go a little more here with description.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That's so helpful. Yeah, What are some of the things
that you've learned so far in your writing journey? Something
that you might share with our listeners who are possibly
aspiring authors themselves.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You know, one question you always get asked a lot
when you're like on these panels and things like how
do you get through writer's block? One thing is, again
the reason that I had to go away from pantsing
was because I would you get into a corner and
then not be able to do it. But I use
a program called Scribner, which I absolutely love because again,
when you have an outline, you can bounce around. So
(28:16):
in one of my books, I remember I got to
like the sagging middle, and You're like, all right, how
do I You got to make sure that you have
enough of a word count, but you need to move
the story along and you don't want to bore anyone.
So I go, okay, well, what do I want to
write it right now? That would be exciting, And I'm like,
let me get to the climax. So then I would
jump over and I'd write the climax and finish that
off to the end, and then I go, Okay, what
(28:38):
just happened, what happens right before them? What brings them
to this? And I'll start to kind of write backwards,
and then I go, oh, this would be good to
foreshadow in the middle, And then I go back to
the middle and I'll do that, and like sometimes it's like.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Until I'm I'm fascinated by this. I don't know if
I've ever heard somebody talk about this is going ahead
to the climax if they're stuck and working backwards. That's
I will keep that in mind. Yeah, No, it.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Really is helpful because, yeah, you get so much of
that excitement you go, okay, well what's going to get
them excited? What brings them to So yeah, I found
that to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
All right, Courtney. So we've got The Tutor coming out
this month in the United States, already been released in
the UK. What are you working on next?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So the deal that I have with Hodder and Stoughton
in the UK is a three book deal, and my
editor's Digital is doing a digital first approach. So the
first one came out in August. The paperback will be
coming out on Tuesday the eleventh. My second book, actually
in the UK, comes out January fifteenth, and the US
paperback comes out April twenty first. So I'm already starting
(29:46):
to gear up on promoting The Hostess. So that story
is about this couple Natalie and Luke, who are able
to you know, they hit the jackpot when they show up. Wait,
they find this rental house on this gorgeous Southampton is
state and it couldn't come at a better time because
Natalie has is recovering from brain damage after a traumatic
(30:07):
car accident that she had in the city and it's
kind of rendered her agoraphobic because when you live in
the city, you can't leave without seeing cars everywhere. So
her husband Luke is hoping that the open space here
and the beach will help her recover. So they get there.
It's as beautiful as they were expecting. But when they
get into the house, there's this like six foot five
intimidating guy who like yells at them to get out,
(30:27):
and thankfully the owner of the estate, Sadie, who's very
glamorous and charismatic, you know, apologizes it explains like this
is her groundskeeper. He suffers from PTSD. He's not used
to like social interactions, but he's harmless, so they kind
of write it off. They look in the fridge and
they see there's like some snacks in the shower. Looked
like he has been used, so like, okay, he probably
thought this was like his own personal place and now
(30:49):
it's not anymore. But you know, Sadie and Natalie really
start to hit it off bolt trading war stories because
Natalie's an r nurse and Sadie's a former psychiatrist, and
they're trying to talk about like what's harder to heal
the brain, you.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Know, the mind or the body.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
And so Luke's relieved because he just got this brand
new job that puts them in a different tax bracket,
but he's got to be in the city and he's
got to be working, So he's happy that Sadie and
Natalie are connecting and can keep each other company, and
she can keep it on Natalie for her, but he
no sooner leaves and all of a sudden, these weird
things start happening around the house, and Natalie is a
very pragmatic person and knows that she has she's suffering
a brain injury, and she's like, is my medication causing
(31:25):
some of these hallucinations? Is Riley breaking back into this
house the groundskeeper and things start to happen, like become
more and more sinister, and then she starts to wonder
if there was an ulterior motive as to why Sadie
rented out this guest house for the first time ever
in the middle of July, and she worries that something
very terrible has happened here and she needs to get
to the bottom of it before something possibly terrible happens
(31:47):
to her.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
So read the tutor now, and then a couple of
months we can read the hostess. Right. Fantastic, Courtney, thanks
so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Of course, thank you so much, which for having me.
This was wonderful, Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Bye, just a few parting words. We have posted more
information on the website about this year's writer Con Cruise.
(32:23):
This year, we're leaving from Fort Lauderdale. It's an eight
day deal. We're going through the Eastern Caribbean, places I
myself have never been before, and I think this is
really going to be kind of exciting, especially if you're
into tropical vistas and beautiful scenery and pebble blue water
And is there somebody who listened into that anyway, Laura
(32:48):
and I will be on board teaching. Our good friend
and fellow writer Betsy Kulakowski will be there. One of
the great all time agents, Catherine Sans, will be on
board and she'll be to talk to each and every
one of our participants, So don't miss out. Plan to
be there now. It's March seventh through the fifteenth. Go
(33:09):
to the website for more info, which is writer con
w R I T E R c o N dot com.
All right, all right then, until next time, keep writing
and remember you cannot fail if you refused to quit.
(33:29):
All right, See you next time.
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I feel like I did things the hard way because
I didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery
Writers of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of
these organizations are so great when you're first, especially when
you're first starting out.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want Ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's good to be back here recording with
my peeps. People actually still say peeps. My embarrassing myself
is this.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Is like, those are two different questions.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
This is like I was going to say when I
was a kid, you're not that young old and like
the first iteration of teen Titans, Wonder Girl would be
saying things like, hey, let's go to that groovy happening
and wrap. I mean, even if you're eight, they're pretty
cringe inducing. I don't want to be that guy? Am
(01:17):
I that guy? Tell me the truth?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
You're not that guy.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I noticed Laura is remaining silent. Whatever.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Okay, I think it's okay to say peeps.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Okay if you're talking about those easter candy things or
just any I.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Think in general, honestly, if those easter things would stop existing,
I'd be fine with that. But that's a personal thing.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's a whole different, won't Everybody here has been traveling, right,
like Jesse's been in Vegas, and Laura you've been in
Connecticut hanging with the daughters. Right, did you do anything
bookish bookstores, indie bookstores or a lot.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Of I got to eat Mystic pizza and went to
the Mystic Aquarium, and I hiked the Blue Gorge in
New Hampshire, But nothing really book related.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Now, lots of fun things, sound and Jesse you were
It's okay.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
I was okay with a break from from Okay, it's
a hockey game that was literary.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Sure, I feel like I feel like that's mean towards
hockey players.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Is also the whole.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And yeah, a hockey romance line we were talking.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
About at some good memory.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Good job, you called me the literary.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Italian one of us these episodes twice, so I.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Remember I even read one of them, so I really
should have remembered that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Sorry, the rest of us just show up right. Jesse's
the glue. Anyway, I was saying, so you were in
Vegas for this D and D thing?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
How I was this?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
How's that a spectator sport?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Again? It's an incredible feat of storytelling where this one
guy has to wrangle six of his improv friends to
complete a story from beginning middle to end in about
a three hour span in front of people, also involving
dice that can randomly take the story in one direction
versus another. It's it's a lot of fun. It's one
(03:30):
impressive when it's done well, and two it's a lot
of fun.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Do they have time limits or using the location has a.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Time limit? It's usually around eleven PM that most of
it is, though, even though this arena was inside the
MGM Grands, I don't know why they made us end
at eleven, but.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
We did, all right. Vacation time is over and now
we are going to talk about books sad and that
includes our interview today with Courtney sac author of a
new thriller titled The Tutor that people are calling Palm
Royal meets the White lotus and is exploring themes like
(04:10):
legacy and privilege and motherhood and she's fascinating to talk
to and listen to it. We'll be talking with her
very soon.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
But first the news.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So today we're having a special all litigation, all lawsuits
all the time. In addition to the news we cause
for excitement. We've got at least three different lawsuits in
the air that relate to writers, one positive, the other
two I don't know. I'm counting on my crack team
(04:58):
of analysts to explain it at all to me. That's
you Jesse and you Lara first, and what I'm going
to call a big victory for the First Amendment. After
two years of litigation about this House bill that would
allow book rating, a federal judge has granted somemary judgment
and ordered a permanent injunction to block the mandatory book
(05:22):
rating law. The court said the law is void for
vagueness and is also quote an unconstitutional prior restraint, which
is a fancy cool judicial way of saying it violates
the First Amendment. And most people thought this was a
good thing for writers and booksellers and publishers and readers
(05:44):
and everybody else team, Can we agree this is a
positive development?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yes, I mean is still.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Thinking thinly veiled way to ban books? The rating too
much like banning too Yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Were trying to formalize a way to bantertain books by
making them like R rated or whatever. Yeah, as we
know with movies doesn't really do a good job of
rating movies anyway.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Anyway, Why why bring it over to books?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Right, all right? News story number two or lawsuit number two?
I should say something that's even weirder. Author Michael Wolf
sues Milania Trump. Okay, we're going to discuss this team
without getting political in any way. I'm sure that will
muzzle all of you. But what's going on here? Why
(06:38):
is well known author nonfiction author Wolf suing Milania Well,
because she and her husband threatened to come after him.
He's working on a book. He's already done one what
was it, Fire and Fury? I think about Trump, And
now he's doing another one about them, and they're and
focusing on alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, not only by
(07:03):
him but by her. So she was threatening him with
a one billion dollar lawsuit. He's now suing her, saying
that her legal threats are this is a quote intended
to shut down legitimate inquiry into the Epstein murder. End quote.
So what I saw just two days ago as we're
recording this is that Michael Wolfe, who is you know,
(07:25):
seventy two years old, not somebody you expect to be
a big social media star, but he started doing this saga.
He looks straight into the camera and explains his points,
and that popularity from social media has translated into a
crowd funding campaign. As we sit here, he's raised over
(07:49):
half a million dollars which he plans to use to
And this is a quote depose the President and the
first lady end quote. So at what point did this
stop being about books and turn into something? I don't know,
Jesse that this is like a He's It's like wolf
(08:11):
is making a preemptive strike against someone who was at
least trying to intimidate him, if not silence him. What
do you think do you approve?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So listen without Gang. I can do this without Gang.
Clinical Oh good, Like this is a tactic that Donald
Trump has used in the past to silence people or
to stop bigger suits from coming. So using that tool
against him, I feel like in this case is appropriate,
So good on him.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Stand up to it. Laura, I think I heard you
murmur an assent or.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Something absolutely like in our first news story we were
talking about it. It's a way of banning books. This
is a this is trying to inhibit free speech, and
I don't approve. We should be able to investigate things
and find out exactly what happened, and there's there's not
(09:07):
a way available to us to truly get to the
truth of anything. If people are silencing those who are investigating,
journalists should be able to investigate, right.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
What's interesting to me is that if you know, if
this survives all the preliminary emotions and challenges and becomes
an ongoing lawsuit, Wolf would be entitled to take depositions
from the parties on the other side, like the current
president and first Lady. And I don't really you know,
they'd mess around and you have to schedule it, but
(09:40):
I don't think you'd avoid it. I remember Clinton was presidency.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
In civil cases, you can depose the president, so.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And if his subject is you know, the Epstein thing,
and it's not looking like those files are coming out
anytime soon, so wouldn't that be an interesting but it
also doesn't.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Look like this stories going away.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So yeah, all right. Lawsuit number three Simon and Schuster.
That's the Big five New York publisher is suing the
estate of author Nelson de mill I've met a bunch
of you will remember de mill On his many, many,
sometimes military, usually thrilleristic books very popular. So it turns
(10:23):
out late in life he signed a three book deal,
did the first two, but he didn't finish the third
book before he passed away. So now basically Simon and
Schuster is trying to recruit recoup the advance they paid
for the third book. They're saying, as well as money
they paid for an outline, because they paid six hundred
(10:46):
and something for you know, the book, and then six
hundred and something again just for the outline. Where is
that deal when I'm looking for it anyway? Digress, So
they want the money back his heerrors, his kids are
saying they never actually paid it. So they're trying to
(11:06):
get back something we know that we never actually received.
They're saying this is all about market sales. Impossible to
believe that the Big five would care about sales. But
here's a quote. Simon and Schuster wanted to escape what
it considered costly over market legacy pricing given the decreasing
(11:28):
profitability of the general major fiction market. End quote. So
you hear what they're saying there. They're saying Dad was
a legacy author getting paid those big advantages advances which
in today's market you could not possibly make it back.
They're just trying to get out of the deals, or
(11:48):
get out of the deal altogether because it didn't turn
out well. Jesse, what are your thoughts here?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, first of all, one, if they didn't actually pay
the family this or pay the author this, yeah, that
wouldn't make it quick. Yeah that that should be over
pretty quickly. Then let's done this. And if they did
pay the family and or they did pay the offer
this money, too bad, Like it's a contract you signed
with him, right he's dead, so like it.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Doesn't seem right to me that. But I guess when
millions are at stake, the rules change and they.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Do things they might not get know the circumstances. Yeah,
i'man sure the family could pay some of them back
if if, if they wanted to, But legally, morally, I don't.
I don't like I'm not on the Simon and Schuster
side most of the time anyway, But I'm definitely not
on their side here, Like, it's not like this is
just like universities who get mad when they have to
(12:45):
pay a coach that they fired their buy out claws.
You made the contract made, it's your fault.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, And they don't know for certain that the kids
would even inherit it enough yeah to cover this saying
what do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:02):
So, first of all, it seems like it should be
pretty easy to determine. There should be some record of
that payout. It's it's it seems odd to me that
that is even a point of contention. But sh see,
I see it as a little gray er. Yes, the
deal was made with the author. So we've always heard
(13:24):
that advances are just paid and then royalties sort of
pay out against that, and you don't make any royalties
until that's it, so you don't normally get asked to
return the advance. But that that was contingent upon receipt
of the third novel, which they didn't actually receive. But
(13:48):
now it's not the author, it's the somebody else airs
of the author, So oh, it's it's sticky. I don't love.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
It's like I said, it wouldn't exist, I think, except
millions are involved.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So also like by doing this lawsuit, they're putting this
author's name back out there, which is probably going to
drive book sales.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
You know there is that, so put them back on
the top of the charts. All right, let's move to
our Craft Corner segment, except, of course, as I'm about
to explain, there's not going to be a new Craft
Corner segment, and there's a reason we have a big
(14:29):
bit of bad news and sadness to convey to you.
This timing Craft Corner. One of our best friends and
best supporters has passed away, and that was John Myers.
It was very unexpected. He's been a writer con regular
for many years. He's a warm and wonderful person. We
(14:50):
already miss him. He did several Craft Corners and he
wrote the book Write Better Together. And we're really going
to anyway, So we're gonna let Craft Corner go silent
this time, thinking of him and his honor. But we
will be back next time with a terrific Craft Corner
(15:10):
segment from our good friend TAMRAA.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Grantham.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
All right, now, let's talk to Courtney Courtney Zach, Welcome
to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for having me, Thank.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
You know, I was thinking to myself, you know, I
feel like I did things the hard way because I
didn't know about organizations before. Like I'm on Mistery Writers
of America. Now there's Women's Fiction Association. All of these
organizations are so great when you're especially when you're for
starting out, because not only is there a community there
critique writers, but also just when you're trying to look
(16:02):
into like forensics experts and you know, FBI police ride alongs,
all those things. It was just extremely helpful. And then
you know, finding events where you can actually pitch to
an agent in person rather than just kind of doing
the cold querying. So those are things I really wish
I had done earlier.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
On Yeah, very good points. Now you started as a writer.
You probably did other things, but you started writing for
writing and editing for magazines like Cosmo and other cool stuff. Right.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, so you know I went to school as a
journalists major. I really my whole you know, Devil Wars product,
fantasy of working in the magazine industry and writing books
on the side. So, yeah, I had interned for Cosmo
South Magazine. I was going for my master's in publishing
when I was working with Modern Bride, and then just unfortunately,
(16:56):
I graduated in two thousand and eight and financial crisis
hit and all of a sudden and all the job
opportunities went away. But you know, thankfully with a communications degree,
I pivoted to Nickelodeon and I was a project manager
there and you know, still you know, writing books on
the side.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
While I did that, right, and eventually that paid off,
I guess, right.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
But your first book was Thirty Days to Thirty Yeah,
I have a thriller, the Tutor. Can you tell us
about that?
Speaker 5 (17:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So the Tutor is about this woman named Rose. She's
a widow but a dedicated mother to her son, James.
You know, they're kind of all they have now. She's
a struggling artist, but they really never had a fam
you know, she never had a family before she was
an orphan. Her husband was a good father, but not
a good husband, and his family was out of the picture.
And you know, incomes this guy Grant, who sweeps her
(17:51):
off her feet and shortly after they get married, he
finds out that his mother, Evelyn, has been diagnosed with Parkinson,
so he asked if they'd be willing to move down
to Palm Beach to help her, and you know, she
wants to be a good wife, so that's what she does.
But the problem is is that Grant comes from a
very generational, wealthy family, and Evelyn's very much used to
getting her way, and she makes it very clear to
Rose early on that she doesn't think that she's good
(18:12):
enough for her for her son. She starts off with
bribery and then when that doesn't work, starts digging into
Rose's past and then finds something unsavory things and decides
to blackmail her. But Rose is obviously, you know, because
she grew up by herself. You know, she's tough as well,
and she while she knew Grant's father passed away twenty
years ago, she discovers that it was under suspicious circumstances,
(18:34):
so she thinks maybe Evelyn's got some skeletons in her
closet as well. Yeah, and insert Isabelle, who is you know,
about two years out of college. Her grandmother, who was
her only living relative, passes away and she discovers the
secret about the Caldwell family and becomes obsessed with them
and follows them from New York to Palm Beach, edging
(18:55):
her way up his tutor and starts to do a
little a little investigating on her own. And when she
starts demanding answers, you know, these three stories collide and
it just shakes this family's foundation to its very core.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
So where did you get the idea for that's? That
sounds like a lot. Is this based on something that
you actually heard about or some stories that truly happened,
or did you just invent it all?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I pretty much invented all, you know. I think kind
of the start of it comes with just trust. You know,
how how well can you trust the people that you
let into your home? You know? When we so I
was from New York, New Jersey area. We moved to
Palm Beach for my husband's job, and we didn't know
anybody here. So I had an eighteen month old son.
So if you need a babysitter, it wasn't even like
(19:42):
I had friends yet to like find a reference and
like care dot com is great with you know, having
background checks, but like my husband, I would be out
to dinner and we're still sitting there, Like what if
they kidnapp? I'm like, we would go and like come
check he's still in the bed, you know, So you
could just kind of think about those sort of things,
you know, with a tutor, it's not you know, it's
(20:03):
you feel like it's pretty harmless. Like she works at
the Sun's school because she managed to get a job
through maternity leave there, so all the right, you know,
like I said, Rose is a good mom. She did
her background check on her. But there's a time for everything.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Well, I listened. I love to listen to true crime podcasts,
and so, yes, this all makes sense to me.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And am I right in thinking this book is set
in the glittering world of Palm Beach?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Is that in an environment you know something about or
you write about.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, I live in Palm Beach, so it was, and
I moved here about six years ago, so I can
kind of, you know, tap into Rose and this coll
like coming into this brand new world and kind of
just how amazing it is. But you know, one of
the takeaways of my story is that you know, you
see Isabelle, Evelyn, and Rose, and they all come from
different walks of life and everything. But at the crux
(20:58):
of it, you know, nobody can just basic human emotions
and trauma, and everybody has their insecurities, their jealousies there,
so you know whether or not you agree with any
of these characters and their decisions. You start to really
understand the basis of it all and how you can't
really blame them. You understand why they're coming.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
From where they are, so you're not going to lose
all your friends as soon as your neighbors read this book.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I never try to. I don't want anyone for a
second to think that anything is based off of them.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yes, I know that feeling, but it still happens.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yes, No, it's anything. I feel like each of those
characters are just kind of more a little bit of me,
you know, even Evelyn.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You're kind of like, yes, completely get she.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Just doesn't care, and it's like only I could like
just not care and say some of the things that
she says.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
You know, and you know, but then people come to
you and they're like, wait, was that me?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Like, no, that was me.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
The book also clearly contains themes about privilege or legacy
if you will, and strong themes of motherhood intentional her
did that just come out in the writing?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The strong themes of motherhood definitely were intentional.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I loved putting Rose kind of in the middle of
this because she's, you know, she's trying to you know,
her art is everything to her and she's about to
kind of lose that, and so she's struggling to you know,
make sure she does well with that otherwise she you know,
that's all going to fall apart for her. She's got
this husband now that's you know, very adoring on her
(22:34):
and like wants her to be with him all the time,
and she's trying to find that balance like I want
to be with him and be good for him, but
I'm so used to being alone that you know, I
like to have my time for myself and.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
For my art.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So she's trying to find like, am I being you know,
too distant or am I being is he being too clinging?
And then of course she's worrying about her son, you know,
he he suddenly has this opportunity now that he's in
Palm Beach to at this school that's like the best
school in the country, and she just wants him to
keep up and That's why she hires the tutor, because
she wants him to do well, you know, but she
just feels like she's being pulled in three different directions.
(23:10):
And you know, we all deal with that struggle with
our deal trying to do all the things.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
So, so, how do you approach a new project? When
you're starting a new novel, do you outline? Do you
just kind of make some notes.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I'm usually a very big outliner. I like to know
exactly where I'm going, because otherwise I just wind up
writing myself into a corner. His story in particular was
kind of interesting because I had I had written it
and handed it off to my agent, and as I
kind of thought more about it, I was like, you know,
this one's a little too predictable, you know, like I
(23:49):
feel like I just kind of wrote it. And I
was saying earlier to someone else that I kind of
compare it to like when you're studying for a test.
The teacher to goes okay, you have to study for
a test. You're like, yeah, okay, and then it's like, yeah,
but the answers are going to be up here for
everyone to see what you wrote. And then you're like, oh,
I actually really need to go back and look at
it again. So when she had told me that editors
(24:10):
were interested in it, I was like, all right, I
need to fix this. It's not you know, they may
like the idea, but it's just it's too predictable in
too many ways. And so I went back and you know,
made Evelyn a character. It was normally a father in law,
and it just wasn't coming off right. And I love
the dynamic between Rose and Evelyn and all the undercurrents
which you could only get between a mother in law
(24:31):
and a daughter in law. And yeah, and then I
just went back and changed everything. So I got to
a point where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is too predictable.
How do I turn it on its head? And then
we went that direction. It's like, okay, now we're going
this way. And uh So this was the one time
where actually I did surprise myself in the end. Overall
I had somewhat of an outline, but the ending, I
was like, this isn't exciting enough.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
I need to do something else, and yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
What kind of came to me. But I really though, yeah, yeah,
so it's helpful. But I mean, people that our parents
as I'm like, oh, good for you, So I wish
I could do.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
No, I've had the exact same feeling. You're thinking about it,
right my planned ending and think, huh, that's kind of boring.
So the murderer is exactly who anybody with a brain
thought it was all along. No, that's not gonna work.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So normally, even with an outline, you know, my my,
you know, the who done it changes at the end,
but at least like halfway. I'm usually halfway or three
quarters of the way when I'm like, all right, we
got to turn this one more time, Like how can
we do that? About throwing a curveball? That doesn't make sense?
You know, you want everything to make sure that in
the end everyone's satisfied.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Yes, that sounds very familiar. I'm like that, and I
think a lot of us are. We have that plan,
but then it will modify it as we write and
come up with more Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Better right, So yeah, and that like as long as
I had that, I don't have to be strict with
my outline. It's just I can't just sit down and go, Okay,
what am I going to do today, because then I'm just, yeah,
I'm going to get myself in a corner.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Yeah, but what does a typical writing day look like
for you? What's your process?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So, yeah, it kind of depends on where in the process.
If I'm trying to come up with an idea, you know,
living in Florida, can go for long walks and I'll
listen to like suspensible music because that keeps me, reminds
me like stop worrying about groceries and pick up and
like focus on the idea. And then I have the idea,
you know, I'll spend a week or two outlining, and
then I'll write like the first five chapters, you know,
(26:27):
the first ten thousand words I I'll write, and then
I kind of take a step back because even though
you have your characters in mind, those first ten thousand
words give you an idea of like, Okay, what kind
of you know, what direction do I want them to be?
Do I want them to be sassy? Do I want
them to be meek?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
What kind of character are? And once I have that settled,
you know, it's kind of off to the races. And
you know that's my favorite part when everything starts to flow,
and you know, I drop my kids off at school
and then I come back and I have to set
an alarm on my phone for when to pick them
up because the hours just fly by, right, which is
a lot of fun. But I write my first draft
is very, very bare bones, So it's just more focusing
(27:05):
on the plot, making sure that it makes sense, that
my characters make sense. And once that happens, I take
a step back and then I go back like a
week or two later, and that's when I like make
it pretty and do my descriptions and more of my setting.
And my agent is a former editor, so what's great
is that when I send it to her, she's able
to do a you know, once over before we go
(27:27):
on submission. But ninety percent of her edits are like
or her notes are like, you need to describe more.
What are they wearing? Because again I start so bare
goones at the beginning that she is to remind me, like,
you got to go a little more here with description.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That's so helpful. Yeah, What are some of the things
that you've learned so far in your writing journey? Something
that you might share with our listeners who are possibly
aspiring authors themselves.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You know, one question you always get asked a lot
when you're like on these panels and things like how
do you get through writer's block? One thing is, again
the reason that I had to go away from pantsing
was because I would you get into a corner and
then not be able to do it. But I use
a program called Scribner, which I absolutely love because again,
when you have an outline, you can bounce around. So
(28:16):
in one of my books, I remember I got to
like the sagging middle, and You're like, all right, how
do I You got to make sure that you have
enough of a word count, but you need to move
the story along and you don't want to bore anyone.
So I go, okay, well, what do I want to
write it right now? That would be exciting, And I'm like,
let me get to the climax. So then I would
jump over and I'd write the climax and finish that
off to the end, and then I go, Okay, what
(28:38):
just happened, what happens right before them? What brings them
to this? And I'll start to kind of write backwards,
and then I go, oh, this would be good to
foreshadow in the middle, And then I go back to
the middle and I'll do that, and like sometimes it's like.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Until I'm I'm fascinated by this. I don't know if
I've ever heard somebody talk about this is going ahead
to the climax if they're stuck and working backwards. That's
I will keep that in mind. Yeah, No, it.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Really is helpful because, yeah, you get so much of
that excitement you go, okay, well what's going to get
them excited? What brings them to So yeah, I found
that to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
All right, Courtney. So we've got The Tutor coming out
this month in the United States, already been released in
the UK. What are you working on next?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So the deal that I have with Hodder and Stoughton
in the UK is a three book deal, and my
editor's Digital is doing a digital first approach. So the
first one came out in August. The paperback will be
coming out on Tuesday the eleventh. My second book, actually
in the UK, comes out January fifteenth, and the US
paperback comes out April twenty first. So I'm already starting
(29:46):
to gear up on promoting The Hostess. So that story
is about this couple Natalie and Luke, who are able
to you know, they hit the jackpot when they show up. Wait,
they find this rental house on this gorgeous Southampton is
state and it couldn't come at a better time because
Natalie has is recovering from brain damage after a traumatic
(30:07):
car accident that she had in the city and it's
kind of rendered her agoraphobic because when you live in
the city, you can't leave without seeing cars everywhere. So
her husband Luke is hoping that the open space here
and the beach will help her recover. So they get there.
It's as beautiful as they were expecting. But when they
get into the house, there's this like six foot five
intimidating guy who like yells at them to get out,
(30:27):
and thankfully the owner of the estate, Sadie, who's very
glamorous and charismatic, you know, apologizes it explains like this
is her groundskeeper. He suffers from PTSD. He's not used
to like social interactions, but he's harmless, so they kind
of write it off. They look in the fridge and
they see there's like some snacks in the shower. Looked
like he has been used, so like, okay, he probably
thought this was like his own personal place and now
(30:49):
it's not anymore. But you know, Sadie and Natalie really
start to hit it off bolt trading war stories because
Natalie's an r nurse and Sadie's a former psychiatrist, and
they're trying to talk about like what's harder to heal
the brain, you.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Know, the mind or the body.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
And so Luke's relieved because he just got this brand
new job that puts them in a different tax bracket,
but he's got to be in the city and he's
got to be working, So he's happy that Sadie and
Natalie are connecting and can keep each other company, and
she can keep it on Natalie for her, but he
no sooner leaves and all of a sudden, these weird
things start happening around the house, and Natalie is a
very pragmatic person and knows that she has she's suffering
a brain injury, and she's like, is my medication causing
(31:25):
some of these hallucinations? Is Riley breaking back into this
house the groundskeeper and things start to happen, like become
more and more sinister, and then she starts to wonder
if there was an ulterior motive as to why Sadie
rented out this guest house for the first time ever
in the middle of July, and she worries that something
very terrible has happened here and she needs to get
to the bottom of it before something possibly terrible happens
(31:47):
to her.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
So read the tutor now, and then a couple of
months we can read the hostess. Right. Fantastic, Courtney, thanks
so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Of course, thank you so much, which for having me.
This was wonderful, Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Bye, just a few parting words. We have posted more
information on the website about this year's writer Con Cruise.
(32:23):
This year, we're leaving from Fort Lauderdale. It's an eight
day deal. We're going through the Eastern Caribbean, places I
myself have never been before, and I think this is
really going to be kind of exciting, especially if you're
into tropical vistas and beautiful scenery and pebble blue water
And is there somebody who listened into that anyway, Laura
(32:48):
and I will be on board teaching. Our good friend
and fellow writer Betsy Kulakowski will be there. One of
the great all time agents, Catherine Sans, will be on
board and she'll be to talk to each and every
one of our participants, So don't miss out. Plan to
be there now. It's March seventh through the fifteenth. Go
(33:09):
to the website for more info, which is writer con
w R I T E R c o N dot com.
All right, all right then, until next time, keep writing
and remember you cannot fail if you refused to quit.
(33:29):
All right, See you next time.
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