July 6, 2025 • 39 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Laurie L. Dove, WriterCon keynote speaker and bestelling author who scored a huge success earlier this year with her debut novel, Mask of the Deer Woman, a thriller set on a Native America reservation with indigenous characters.
00:00 Opening Thoughts
Last Call for the WriterCon Retreat, a five-day immerisve writing workshop at Canebrake Resort, Wagoner OK, from July 16-20.
05:39 News
We take a deep dive into the ongoing controversies surrounding artificial intelligence and how it affects writers, talking about the recent Anthropic decision, the studio suit against Midjourney, and writers being accused of using AI—even though they didn't.
18:36 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers of Write Better Together discusses the importance of choosing your setting deliberately.
23:18 Interview with Laurie L Dove
In this compelling interview, we hear the bestselling debut author discuss her road of many years leading to Mask of the Deer Woman, her chart-topping breakout novel, now planned to launch a series. She talks about how the Murdered and Missing Indiginous Women crisis informed the book and how she devised the plot twists and turns that have led to stellar reviews and high sales.
36:38 Parting Words
Yes, the Retreat ia almost upon us...so let's start talking about the WriterCon Conference, Labor Day weekend (Aug 29-Sept 1) at the historic Skirvin Hilton in Oklahoma City. Come join us!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
00:00 Opening Thoughts
Last Call for the WriterCon Retreat, a five-day immerisve writing workshop at Canebrake Resort, Wagoner OK, from July 16-20.
05:39 News
We take a deep dive into the ongoing controversies surrounding artificial intelligence and how it affects writers, talking about the recent Anthropic decision, the studio suit against Midjourney, and writers being accused of using AI—even though they didn't.
18:36 Craft Corner
Jon Meyers of Write Better Together discusses the importance of choosing your setting deliberately.
23:18 Interview with Laurie L Dove
In this compelling interview, we hear the bestselling debut author discuss her road of many years leading to Mask of the Deer Woman, her chart-topping breakout novel, now planned to launch a series. She talks about how the Murdered and Missing Indiginous Women crisis informed the book and how she devised the plot twists and turns that have led to stellar reviews and high sales.
36:38 Parting Words
Yes, the Retreat ia almost upon us...so let's start talking about the WriterCon Conference, Labor Day weekend (Aug 29-Sept 1) at the historic Skirvin Hilton in Oklahoma City. Come join us!
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
and everything will notch intok place, Hang in there.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining us.
All right, first off, as we record this, we still
have three spots left at the writer Con retreat at Kingbrake,
and I would love to see you. Yes, you take
one of them, or two or possibly all three. Okay,
maybe that's excessive, although who knows, you might have friends
(01:00):
and at any rate. At the retreat, we are going
to take a deep dive into your or whoever's theirs
work works on progress is that the plural that works
in progress, or possibly even your works in planning. We'll
have group sessions where we talk about all kinds of
various topics of interest chosen by the participants. We'll have
(01:25):
Laura there, plus three other speakers who are going to attend,
including a fantastic agent who will meet with every single
person there. I mean, if you want to, we're not
going to force it on you, but here's a chance
to have a one on one with an agent that
you're not likely to get otherwise. Fantastic aguent two sales
books all the time, and then we will break into
(01:45):
smaller groups. You can get feedback from a number of
people who, over the course of the five days will
come to know your story almost as well as you
do future beta readers maybe. Plus, the food is superb
and Cane Break has been beautiful, So you know what's
holding your back. If you're ready to take the next
back big step toward publishing, here's your chance. Laura, what
(02:09):
have I left out?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Well, you talked about all the good work we do,
but we not only work hard, we also play hard.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
So you have to remember that there are hikes that
we can go on.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Bill and I definitely utilize the pickleball core last year.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
That was so much fun. There's a pool, which I
don't think we didn't.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
We're definitely trying that this year, because I don't think
we got in the pool last year.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
There are walks. I went on a morning walk every morning.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I saw bunnies and I saw deer, and there are
birds everywhere.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
It's just beautiful and relaxing.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And we also had that cookout one evening out by
the pool.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Very I hope we did that a great jobs taking
care of me.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
You did mention the food, but that was particularly fun.
I can't I'm looking forward to it so much. I'm
so excited about it.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
I've got right a concert on because he cool.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Jesse, what is your excuse for not being there this year?
I mean it just won't well, it will be okay,
but still well, we probably double our attendance if the
renowned sound engineer and James Patterson disser Jesse Uorrish was
going to.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Be there, both a nerdy reason and a social justice reason.
During those dates, I'll be going to Seattle to see
a live D and D role play show, and then
going directly from that trip to Stillwater, where I helped
co run a program called the any Town Leadership Institute,
where we have thirty to fifty teenage delegates and we
(03:37):
teach them about issues in the world and how to like,
you know, a fight for them and whatnot. So two
red eye flights and then spending a week with teens,
which is why I will not be it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
All right, we'll let it slip this time. I'm proud
of you.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
For doing that, but only the young I'm I'm glad
I'm going to be at Cambrake relaxing by the pool.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, one of the few benefits of the few reasons
I do it. Not because one because I like, you know,
helping educate the next generation, but also so I know
what's cool these days, so it's good.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yes, yes, you can bring it back and share with That's.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
How I first discovered Lizzo. It's how I first discovered
what's her face?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Give us a hint, Sabrina Carpenter.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Why am I blinking on her name? We're going to
add this part out.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Uh hold on, do itraight.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Troblone, Yes, of course. Yeah, like right before, like rebfore,
I was everywhere these teams were like, yeah, this is
this is our jam.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I'm like cool, nice okay people. That was officially the
last commercial this year for the retreat. From this point on,
we're focusing on the writer conconference, which of course is
Labor Day weekend at the Hilton Scurvin in Oklahoma City,
And as it happens, we have one of our keynote
speakers with us today, Laurie L. Dove, who scored a
(05:03):
huge success earlier this year with her debut novel, Mask
of the Dear Woman, which is a thriller set on
a Native American reservation with indigenous characters, hit the USA
Today bestseller List and a bunch of others virtually the
instant it was released, and the reviews are fantastic. Lurie's
(05:24):
an award winning journalist with a master's degree in Creative
Writing and literature from What's Oh Yeah, Harvard, and we'll
be talking to her about all that and much more.
But first the news news story number one, which is
(05:55):
actually the only news story today. We are going to
take a deep dive into the world of AI and
how it will, and in some respects already has impacted writers.
I know some of you probably feel like every day
is a deep dive into AI because it seems like
all a lot of people are talking about. But there
were so many relevant stories this past week I thought
(06:17):
we should just pile them all together and try to
make some sense of it, particularly now when we've had
two major legal decisions. I would have thought, and I
did go to law school technically, and technically I am
a lawyer, I would have thought it was obvious that
allowing AI programs to scrape copyrighted works to train the
(06:41):
program was improper unless you have permission from the copyright owner.
But two courts have now said it was permissible, at
least under some circumstances. In this most recent case, brought
by an AI company called Anthropic, the court ruled that
using copyrighted works, even some that were downloaded I mean
(07:01):
millions that were downloaded illegally from pirate internet sites, fell
under the category of fair use, which basically, to cut
to the chase, means you can do it. Laura, how
does that make you? A writer who probably wrote some
of that copyrighted work.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Feel completely disagree with the decisions on this, but lately
I just kind of live in a constant.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
State of outrage.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
That's making me numb to everything, to be honest, especially
when it's been pirated.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
We've been hearing so much about Shoot, we just watched
an interview on an episode of John Oliver where he
talked about AI slop AI is producing so much garbage lately,
and the fact that they are stealing the work from
people who worked very hard in order to train them
to try to do better. It is in curiating and
it does absolutely feel like theft. And I don't know
(08:02):
how anyone could rule that this is okay. We've all
probably at this point seen the leaked comments from I
think it was meta meta somebody who said, well, we
can't pay all those people, it wouldn't be cost effective,
so let's just deal it and deal with that side. Yes, yes,
that sounds completely fair.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, here's what happened, and this is not in dispute.
Anthropic has acknowledged it. They downloaded millions of copyrighted books
in digital form, obviously from pirate sites. They also purchased
some books, no info on how many, but according to them,
they bought actual paper books and rip the covers off
and fed the page into a spanner, creating digital files.
(08:45):
The point that they were trying to achieve was to
amass a central library and this is a quote of
all the books in the world to retain forever end quote.
So what the judge ruled was that, Well, the judge
said that they acquired at least five million copies from
places like I'm not going to say the name of
(09:06):
these pirate sites. You figure it out for yourself. You
shouldn't be pirrating books anyway. The point is they got
at least seven million books from various pirate sites. And
to be fair, although the court said that using those
books to train its program was somehow fair, use, creating
a central library went too far. Jesse, I don't really
(09:29):
see the difference to you.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
No, I'm very confused because, like as someone who when
they were younger and had less money did pirate things
that was a crime. And the fact that they are
pirating things, and I actually went to the sites that
you did not mention, and you can on this one
site you can download it's like an eighty eight terabyte
(09:52):
file of just every notchiction book that they had.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
It probably wasn't even hard to download all those books.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
No, I mean, it takes some time. It's a big file.
But like it specifically said to be used for lllms,
for you know, large language models. I don't understand this,
Like there are rights, we have copyrights we have. You know,
if libraries can only give out two versions of an ebook,
I don't understand how that's allowed. Yeah, they're not allowed
to buy more ebooks at a regular price, but people
(10:19):
can just download every book to make an aim model.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I had the idea that maybe book pirrating was diminishing,
because once upon a time, it seems like, you know,
when you get the Google alerts reports your name, about
half of them were pirate sites. But I haven't seen
that in a long time. But maybe they just don't
want my books anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm with you.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I had that same feeling.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
It felt like I was hearing much less from writer
friends about discovering their books on pirated site.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
So I was with you.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I thought maybe we were kind of trending down. There's
so many ways to get books that isn't akin to
stealing them that I thought maybe we were learning as
a collective culture.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well. The AI problems, of course, aren't just focused on
word based things like books. Another controversial aspect of AI
are the programs that generate images, although that's still of
importance to writers because those images are usually based on
some well known intellectual property. Like Disney Characters or Star
(11:22):
Wars or something like that. Disney and Universal have now
sued a company called mid Journey. You've probably seen their
work around if you've been on social media. This is
the first time Hollywood companies have taken any kind of
legal action against these programs or the makers of these
programs that generate images. But you can see why Disney
(11:44):
owned Star Wars and like, for instance, Jesse, the graphic
I sent you on this story has Darth Vader and
it's all generated by AI our Trek of course, same
thing that you know. Are you seeing a lot of
ap doctor Trick images?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of weird Like I was
actually more Lord of the Rings than Star Trek things,
but AI videos of like if Star Trek was I
don't know, like a Western or if the Star Trek
was I've seen a lot of if Game of Thrones
was like a hillbilly show, and I was like, why
(12:21):
why are we doing this?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well, I mean I mentioned Star Trek because, of course,
I think the fandom has been huge to keeping that
franchise alive. Take it from the guy who remembers the
Great Interregnum the ten years between in the first series
of the first movie, and it was fan fiction and
stuff like that that was keeping it alive. So I
(12:44):
think the attitude with the owner's paramount has always been,
you know, as long you can write stories, you can
make films, you know, new episodes of the series, as
long as you're not making any money off it or
doing it for commercial reasons. But is this the same thing?
Is this just going to be people playing around and
(13:05):
keeping the franchise alive again?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I don't understand why they're spending so much energy and
time on creative things when they could be spending all
this time making a products that make our lives easier.
I stopped trying to make it easier for me to
organize my emails, make it easier for me to make
a to do list that tracks where I am, and
whynot stop trying to make art? But well here, yeah,
(13:30):
our art is sexy and flashy.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well here's the thing. I mentioned fan fiction because that's
been so important to not just star Trek a lot
of franchises. And a new controversy is that a Reddit
user I'm not going to say this name either, but
he scraped twelve point six million fan fictions from an
online repository called Archive of our Own and uploaded the
(13:55):
data set to hugging Face, which is a company that
hosts AI software that was discovered by the Reddit community
and they've been griping about it ever since. Now, fan fiction,
of course, is something that you usually cannot sell for profit,
and you don't you don't own the copyright, at least
(14:18):
to the characters. So is this the same or is
it still offensive that people are feeding this stuff into
their AI Jesse, what do you think you have such
a troubled expression on your face.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I just hate. I hate that we exist in a
space where they're just we have leaders who don't understand
the technology so are afraid to try to regulate it,
and we have companies with billions of dollars that just
need to create more billions of dollars to make their
stakeholders happy, and no one's we can't have the conversation
(14:54):
about what is the point of this?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Speaking of politicians and technologies and social media, there's TikTok,
which was supposed to have, you know, been banned if
it wasn't sold, but it hasn't yet. And book talk
has been enormously important in promoting books. But now you've
got a wave of people on TikTok accusing other authors
(15:19):
of using AI, either to conceal the fact that they've
plagiarized a plot or to feed tropes into a formula.
We've got people on TikTok now who are actually taking
videos of themselves editing a manuscript to prove that they've
done it themselves, you know, rather than an AI. Laura,
(15:42):
you're the writer. Is this appalling or is it smart?
Or are you going to start doing it? What do
you think?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
No? I don't like when anybody just hops on a
bandwagon and starts complaining. I saw something online about people
were convinced that if you use an DASH, it must
have been written by AI. I think you have to
at least know what you're talking about. That's nonsense. So
when people who don't know what they're talking about, I'll
(16:10):
just kind of run after something. I don't think that
it ends well. I don't mind that they're against AI.
Have someone I have someone I'm friends with who is
working on a book and came to me and was
complaining about a co worker who didn't. According to my friend,
(16:30):
they wrote something with AI and they were putting it
out there, and friend was concerned that it was going
to be an overnight bestseller, and I'm well, well, and
I get that when we are working hard at our
craft and we see somebody who just kind of churns
something out overnight and is like, there we go, I'm
(16:51):
just going to throw it out there and see what happens.
It's not something that they've actually made, and I understand it,
but of course I've been keeping eye on it, and
it's it's not going anywhere. I think that the idea
that there's a backlash against the AI is not a
bad thing. But I would say don't just start attacking authors,
especially if you don't know for sure.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Just don't. If you think that it's not a well
written book, just don't buy it. Don't read it.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Don't And if you think that it might have been
something turned out by AI that it might be, just
don't read it.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
You know, you can.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Say, you can even review it, you can say this
didn't read well, it didn't feel good to me, I
didn't enjoy it, not a good experience. That's fine, but
I wouldn't I want to attack an author and start
accusing them of things without knowing for sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You wouldn't. But I'm shocked. But I think that these
kind of flame wars do occasionally happen on social media,
and that's probably not going to end. I like the
bottom line Jesse gave it because I think there probably
are some things that AI could do that would make
our you know, short of becoming sky Neet and taking
over the world, there are probably some good practices, but
(18:03):
keep it away from art. We don't need computers competing
with writers or visual artists or anybody else. Let's let
art be art.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, it's hard enough for artists to make a living
these days.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Why are these tech nerds and I am a fellow
tech nerd, but why are these tech nerds being like, yeah,
I'm going to create this thing to get rid of artists.
Why what did they do to you?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Yeah, we're all on.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It because they can't do it anyway. All right, enough
of that craft corner. In this episode, we're going to
be continuing this great series John Myers has given us.
We've done two previous and this third installment is about
using real life experiences in your fiction. The pros and
(18:54):
be careful the cons as well. Take it away, John.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Craft Quarterer He everybody, Welcome to writer CON's Craft Corner.
I'm John Myers. I'm half of Write Better Together. The
other half is Emily Brooks, my business partner. She and
her husband are preparing to have a baby, so she
won't be here today. Speaking of Emily, she and I
hosted a webinar last month called Dipping into the Well
(19:23):
of your Life for inspiration living a life worth writing about.
There are things that I want to talk to you
about today that you can dip into the well of
your own life and use them. I'm going to talk
about memoir, but they apply to fictional characters as well,
and you'll see why in a second point. Number one
is your story isn't about who you think it is.
People set out to write a story, the memoir, and
(19:47):
I got news for you. This is why it's better
when Emily's here, because she'll break it to you more gently.
Unless you're Oppenheimer or Barbie, you might not have done enough,
something big enough to write your life story. Some of
you have. Some of you are doctors who have discovered
things or had a life changing recovery from something. So
some of you do, but a lot of us don't. However,
(20:11):
to use a fictional example, none of us have ever
made meth or sold meth like Walter White and breaking Bad. However,
we do have common experiences. We all know what it's
like to not be able to pay a bill, or
how am I going to take care of my family?
How am I going to recover from this disease. So
even though we don't cook and sell meth, there are
(20:32):
things in Walter White's life that we can connect with
our readers. And so that's my point number one. Your
story isn't about you. It's really about your readers. You
want to find the things that will impact your readers
because they've been through them too. Point number two, your
most powerful moments aren't the moments you think they might be.
(20:53):
We've all been around someone who scored the winning touchdown
at state in high school and now they're fifty yearyears
old and they're still talking about it. We've heard that
story and we know that story. There's no surprise, there's
no conflict, and more interesting moment would be we lost
at state because I was the star quarterback and I
(21:14):
wasn't allowed to play because I was in detention because
I skipped school with my girlfriend and we were making
out underneath the bleachers. Now that's a story. You're not
the hero, but everyone has had a failure at an
important moment in their life and they can relate to that. Finally,
number three, sharing your pivot point isn't as easy as
you think it is. Emily and I both teach college students.
(21:37):
From time to time, we'll have students right about a
pivot point they've lived through, and it'll just be I
was on spring break, we left home, got on the plane,
we went there, had a great time. There's no specific
intimate moment, but a pivot point has you were one
way on Tuesday. Pivot point happens you're another on Wednesday.
(22:01):
So I decided what my major was going to be
the freshman year at college. That's not a pivot point.
The pivot point. The interesting thing is I still had
an undeclared major in college and I was tired of
washing dishes at Applebee's.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I slipped the dish.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Broke, I cut my hand open, had to have thirteen stitches.
I'm done working at Applebee's. I'm going to go after
my dream and they're my major. That's a pivot point.
So there are things that you can do, real moments
from your life that can emotionally impact your reader. Thanks William,
Laura and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Thank you so much, John Myers. Now let's talk to
Laurie el Dove. Laurie el Dove, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I'm glad you're here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
and everything will notch into place. Hang in there.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
That is so good to hear, because I've been doing
this for like thirty five years and I'm still waiting
for all colallesce. It makes sense to me, But I'm
going to take your word for it, because after all,
you got a creative writing degree from Harvard for Pete's sake, right,
so I'm not bad. And then you had several other
(23:50):
careers before writing. You're an award winning journalist, right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I am, And this writing this book was always the dream.
So to come back full circle and at fifty to
get a master's degree have this book published by one
of the Big five. It was literally a lifelong dream
come true.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah, and great results when it came out to some
of the best reviews for a debut novel or any
novel I've ever seen. And we'll get to that in
a second, I promise. But I also wanted to ask
you about teaching. You're also teaching right.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Too, and I love it. I'm teaching in a couple
of different ways. I am an adjunct professor at a
local university, and I love to teach creative writing and
media writing. I did that for a long time, and
I love the energy and hopefulness and gumption that my
students bring to what they're passionate about, and I tell
(24:50):
them follow that, follow those passions, even when it doesn't
always look like you might have an economic driver to
go full steam with it. Been there, follow it anyway.
But the other thing that I'm looking forward to is
teaching at Writer Con Yes later this year, So I'm
very excited about that. I love talking about books and
(25:12):
writing and it is literally my favorite thing to do.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yeah, you're going to be our keynote speaker on Sunday afternoon,
if I recall correctly, and doing some more teaching too.
Do you remember what some of your other topics are.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, one of the things that I want to talk
about is really, I think kind of a new concept,
which is the concept of a literary thriller. And I
think in some ways that's where my book falls. And
I've been reading a lot of books that I think
fall in that area too, So I think it's an
interesting marriage of a couple of different styles that we're
(25:48):
really seeing an upswell of right now. So I'm looking
forward to diving into that.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, well, I'll be there for that session because I
think you're totally right. All right, I've made people wait
long enough. Tell us about this fantastic debut novel, Mask
of the Dear Woman, Thank you Well.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It is centered around the idea that to find a
missing young woman, the new tribal Marshall, must first find herself.
So Carrie stars at rock Bottom. She's an ex Chicago
detective who has left the force and left the state
after the death of her teenage daughter. She returns to
(26:26):
the reservation in Oklahoma where her father was raised because
the tribe needs a new bureau of Indian Affairs Marshall
as much as she needs a place to kind of
reset and get herself together, but she's immediately embroiled in
the case of a college woman from the reservation who
(26:46):
is missing, and she really falls into that investigation that
leaves her drowning and memories of her own daughter, the
girl that she failed to save. And while she feels
in this place that she thought would welcome her, she
can't catch us a glimpse of this figure who is
(27:07):
Dear Woman, and she cannot shake the feeling that this
fearsome spirit is watching her, following her. But what she
doesn't know is whether Dear Woman is here to guide
her or to seek vengeance or the lost daughters that
star can never bring home.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Oh wow, that sounds so interesting, and I suspect that
your decision to set this on a reservation was very intentional.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what
themes you were exploring there and why you went that
route it was.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I started writing this book without really a plan for
the type of book I was writing, but what I
did have were these big questions, and for me, it
began as an exploration of identity and belonging. I'm adopted
by Mennonite farmers in Kansas, but my birth family is indigenous,
(28:06):
and I started with those big questions through this fictional
character on this fictional reservation, what might this look like
for this character from all sides. And along with that,
I have several daughters, and they're the age where they're
going out in the big wide world and they're courageous
(28:27):
and they're doing all of their own things. But I'm
still a mama, and so all of those worries I
think I kind of channeled into this book. And while
I was researching it, I came across some really shocking
statistics about missing and murdered Indigenous women. Not that I
was unaware that this is an issue, but I was
(28:47):
shocked at the prevalence of it, and the prevalence of
it in Oklahoma specifically. So that felt like a really
important thing to hopefully be able to build some awareness about.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Fantastic, excellent. I'm so passionate about women's issues. I've got
to read this book. It sounds just like my thing.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Well, you've sold one already, so this is a successful interview,
I would say, of course, since I'm the thriller guy,
I'm going to bring out that despite the serious background
issues which are very present. The reviews I read compliment
you on what a page turning thriller it is, as
suspenseful and laden with plot twists. How do you come
(29:33):
up with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I found that after I wrote the first version of
this book, which really grew out of a short story
that I had already written them in. I was leaving
clues for my future self as I was writing, So
then it was really a matter of going back in
and recognizing those moments and layering in more tension, more suspense,
(30:00):
more mystery.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Very interesting. So this one started as a short story
that's happening. And then, how how do you think you'll
approach novels moving forward? Are you like Panther Planner? Do
you like to outline what is your process?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Like?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I am all of those things because I am very
passionate about being experimental in writing, and I am obsessed
with other writers' routines, so I will try them on
for size. If someone gets up early and writes first thing,
you know, before the sends even up, I'll try that.
If they're doing that late at night, I'll try that.
(30:42):
Whatever it is, I'm on board, so I suspect that
every time I write a book it will feel a
little different in terms of routine. The first one came
to life as a short story, and I did it
all backwards. I wrote the ending first, then I wrote
the rest of the story, and when I was done
with that, I knew that this character, Carrie Starr, had
(31:04):
a lot more to explore. She was complicated, complex, not
always likable, but there is something about her that feels
so real. And I was really excited then to be
able to kind of break that short story of part
and apply it as a framework for this first novel.
And long before I was even done with this, I
knew there was so much more of her life to
(31:27):
explore that I'm happy to say it's now a series.
The second book is with my publisher, and I'm really
excited to see where she goes next.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
I love telling people there is no one right way,
and I like hearing you echo that that whatever works works,
go with it. Whatever works for someone I think is
what they should do, and no one can tell them
it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, we are not immutable, and I mean that in
the best possible way. We're meant to grow and change
and try things on for size. And even if you
find a routine that really works for you, it may
not work for you later. So that's my failure. That's
an expansion.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
That's love it. I can't wait to meet you. I'm
so glad to write con love it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I am too, I'm so excited for it.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
What does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I'll leave out the dread and panic. No, I'm just kidding.
I'm actually having the time of my life, so there
really isn't much of that. But I it involves a
lot of dog So I take these writing breaks and
like pester my dogs or my children in between. But
it looks like trying to get a solid four or
(32:45):
five hours in of writing. And because I was a
journalist for so many years, I do write pretty quickly.
What slows me down are the decisions because instead of
covering a story or covering events that have already happened
or can kind of predict what might happen, every decision
is available for me to make in these books. And
(33:07):
that was really the first thing I had to learn
to grapple with. And for that, I realized that instead
of my old approach, which was, you know, sit down,
get the words out, no matter what else is going
around me. I can focus and do that. But what
I learned with this is I need a ROOMI or process.
I need a lot of time to think, to cast
(33:28):
those thought auditions in my head about well, if I
make this decision, where does it lead? Conversely, where does
this other one lead? So that's what it looks like.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
That's great, fantastic this one. The story is developing as
you are writing it. You're not discovering it, you're actually
producing it, and so it is different.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
I also find that if I give myself room.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
To breathe, that I will have more ideas that I
probably wouldn't have thought of if I had just knocked
it out really quickly and gotten it out there.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
So I think, I think you and I are gonna vibe.
I think weird.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I think so too. Yes, I really do. That sounds
very familiar to me. And I have found in this
sort of experimental process throughriting the first one that that
has really been key for me, that time to kind
of let thoughts marinate.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yes, very nice, fantastic. What are some things you've learned
kind of along the way, something that you might share
with our aspiring authors.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I think the biggest thing that I learned is something
that you have heard a lot and will continue to
hear a lot, hopefully, and that is don't quit. There
are times in life when you may be forced to
set it aside. We're always coming up against competing priorities,
(34:52):
which is normal and natural, and change is the one
constant will probably all experience. But just don't stop entirely.
Come back to it, even if it's a few stolen
minutes that you make for yourself. But come back to
it and keep coming back to it. And even when
you're in the middle of a story and you're thinking,
(35:13):
I don't know where this goes, or maybe I know
where it goes, I just don't know how to get there,
keep going. Sometimes you just have to do a thing
so that you can learn how to do a thing.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well. I love that, since that's virtually the writer com theme.
You can't fail if you refuse to quit. So perfect, Yes,
I love that. So one last question, which I think
I already know the answer to, since you said this
is going to launch it, this book is going to
launch a series, but what are you working on? Now
and what and when can we expect something new.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Cry of the Raincrow is the second book in the series.
It's with my publisher now we'll see that in twenty
twenty six. I am currently writing a third book and
a fourth standalone. I'm working on a screenplay just for
my own fun. I like to be prepared no matter
what happens, and I'm just exciting to be so fully
(36:14):
immersed in the world of books and book people who
are the best people. And I am truly having the
time of my life.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Oh that's so great to hear, Laurie. Thanks so much
for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Thank you for having me. It has been a joy.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
We'll see you in August at writer Con. Thanks so much.
Good bye bye. Now, just a few parting words because
I got nothing to talk about now. I promise there'd
be no more commercials about the Cane Break Writer's Retreat,
(36:54):
which is on July sixteenth to the twentieth, and you
can learn more about that at the website. But the
conference is definitely coming up this Labor Day weekend that's
August twenty ninth through September one in Oklahoma City. Learn
more about that on the website too. And hear more
from the wonderful lari El Dove Lara. What are you
(37:17):
looking forward or to most this year, writer, con I'm.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Still thinking about the retreat.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Okay, I'll ask you a week.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
I'm looking forward to meeting all the new people and
seeing all of our returning friends. I just watching this
family grow. It just makes my heart so happy. Last
week ye the best, and I think this year will
be the best.
Speaker 5 (37:39):
Every year is the best.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
We are growing. Our number is even this far out
from the conference are up from last year. So I
think we're gonna have a good conference.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
It's just like a great, big family reunion for me
every year. I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah. I'm excited to be back at the Scurven.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
So oh yeah, that'll be fun too. Bigger space, more room.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
We probably won't be scrambling quite so much to make
sure there are a few seats in the sessions that
get overstuffed.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Have I told you yet that we're gonna have more
sessions this year, like maybe six instead of five. You're
gonna need more microphones, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I need to talk to your people about that. Let's
get on top of the ball this time, like I
should have to be running around all day.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah, Jesse records all this sessions and then they're made
available to people who attended the conference afterwards, so you
can listen to them over and over again, all thanks
to you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Listen, I'm just excited. The servin also has a hot tub,
so let's go.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
They do have at dubs, all right. See, the excitement
is already starting to.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
Build, doubling like a hut.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yes, until next time, Keep writing, everybody, and remember, like
Laurie was telling you, you cannot fail if you refuse
to quit. See you next time.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
That dos Aran stand
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
and everything will notch intok place, Hang in there.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want ln Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining us.
All right, first off, as we record this, we still
have three spots left at the writer Con retreat at Kingbrake,
and I would love to see you. Yes, you take
one of them, or two or possibly all three. Okay,
maybe that's excessive, although who knows, you might have friends
(01:00):
and at any rate. At the retreat, we are going
to take a deep dive into your or whoever's theirs
work works on progress is that the plural that works
in progress, or possibly even your works in planning. We'll
have group sessions where we talk about all kinds of
various topics of interest chosen by the participants. We'll have
(01:25):
Laura there, plus three other speakers who are going to attend,
including a fantastic agent who will meet with every single
person there. I mean, if you want to, we're not
going to force it on you, but here's a chance
to have a one on one with an agent that
you're not likely to get otherwise. Fantastic aguent two sales
books all the time, and then we will break into
(01:45):
smaller groups. You can get feedback from a number of
people who, over the course of the five days will
come to know your story almost as well as you
do future beta readers maybe. Plus, the food is superb
and Cane Break has been beautiful, So you know what's
holding your back. If you're ready to take the next
back big step toward publishing, here's your chance. Laura, what
(02:09):
have I left out?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Well, you talked about all the good work we do,
but we not only work hard, we also play hard.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
So you have to remember that there are hikes that
we can go on.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Bill and I definitely utilize the pickleball core last year.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
That was so much fun. There's a pool, which I
don't think we didn't.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
We're definitely trying that this year, because I don't think
we got in the pool last year.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
There are walks. I went on a morning walk every morning.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
I saw bunnies and I saw deer, and there are
birds everywhere.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
It's just beautiful and relaxing.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And we also had that cookout one evening out by
the pool.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Very I hope we did that a great jobs taking
care of me.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
You did mention the food, but that was particularly fun.
I can't I'm looking forward to it so much. I'm
so excited about it.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
I've got right a concert on because he cool.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Jesse, what is your excuse for not being there this year?
I mean it just won't well, it will be okay,
but still well, we probably double our attendance if the
renowned sound engineer and James Patterson disser Jesse Uorrish was
going to.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Be there, both a nerdy reason and a social justice reason.
During those dates, I'll be going to Seattle to see
a live D and D role play show, and then
going directly from that trip to Stillwater, where I helped
co run a program called the any Town Leadership Institute,
where we have thirty to fifty teenage delegates and we
(03:37):
teach them about issues in the world and how to like,
you know, a fight for them and whatnot. So two
red eye flights and then spending a week with teens,
which is why I will not be it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
All right, we'll let it slip this time. I'm proud
of you.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
For doing that, but only the young I'm I'm glad
I'm going to be at Cambrake relaxing by the pool.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, one of the few benefits of the few reasons
I do it. Not because one because I like, you know,
helping educate the next generation, but also so I know
what's cool these days, so it's good.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yes, yes, you can bring it back and share with That's.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
How I first discovered Lizzo. It's how I first discovered
what's her face?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Give us a hint, Sabrina Carpenter.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Why am I blinking on her name? We're going to
add this part out.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Uh hold on, do itraight.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Troblone, Yes, of course. Yeah, like right before, like rebfore,
I was everywhere these teams were like, yeah, this is
this is our jam.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I'm like cool, nice okay people. That was officially the
last commercial this year for the retreat. From this point on,
we're focusing on the writer conconference, which of course is
Labor Day weekend at the Hilton Scurvin in Oklahoma City,
And as it happens, we have one of our keynote
speakers with us today, Laurie L. Dove, who scored a
(05:03):
huge success earlier this year with her debut novel, Mask
of the Dear Woman, which is a thriller set on
a Native American reservation with indigenous characters, hit the USA
Today bestseller List and a bunch of others virtually the
instant it was released, and the reviews are fantastic. Lurie's
(05:24):
an award winning journalist with a master's degree in Creative
Writing and literature from What's Oh Yeah, Harvard, and we'll
be talking to her about all that and much more.
But first the news news story number one, which is
(05:55):
actually the only news story today. We are going to
take a deep dive into the world of AI and
how it will, and in some respects already has impacted writers.
I know some of you probably feel like every day
is a deep dive into AI because it seems like
all a lot of people are talking about. But there
were so many relevant stories this past week I thought
(06:17):
we should just pile them all together and try to
make some sense of it, particularly now when we've had
two major legal decisions. I would have thought, and I
did go to law school technically, and technically I am
a lawyer, I would have thought it was obvious that
allowing AI programs to scrape copyrighted works to train the
(06:41):
program was improper unless you have permission from the copyright owner.
But two courts have now said it was permissible, at
least under some circumstances. In this most recent case, brought
by an AI company called Anthropic, the court ruled that
using copyrighted works, even some that were downloaded I mean
(07:01):
millions that were downloaded illegally from pirate internet sites, fell
under the category of fair use, which basically, to cut
to the chase, means you can do it. Laura, how
does that make you? A writer who probably wrote some
of that copyrighted work.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Feel completely disagree with the decisions on this, but lately
I just kind of live in a constant.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
State of outrage.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
That's making me numb to everything, to be honest, especially
when it's been pirated.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
We've been hearing so much about Shoot, we just watched
an interview on an episode of John Oliver where he
talked about AI slop AI is producing so much garbage lately,
and the fact that they are stealing the work from
people who worked very hard in order to train them
to try to do better. It is in curiating and
it does absolutely feel like theft. And I don't know
(08:02):
how anyone could rule that this is okay. We've all
probably at this point seen the leaked comments from I
think it was meta meta somebody who said, well, we
can't pay all those people, it wouldn't be cost effective,
so let's just deal it and deal with that side. Yes, yes,
that sounds completely fair.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Well, here's what happened, and this is not in dispute.
Anthropic has acknowledged it. They downloaded millions of copyrighted books
in digital form, obviously from pirate sites. They also purchased
some books, no info on how many, but according to them,
they bought actual paper books and rip the covers off
and fed the page into a spanner, creating digital files.
(08:45):
The point that they were trying to achieve was to
amass a central library and this is a quote of
all the books in the world to retain forever end quote.
So what the judge ruled was that, Well, the judge
said that they acquired at least five million copies from
places like I'm not going to say the name of
(09:06):
these pirate sites. You figure it out for yourself. You
shouldn't be pirrating books anyway. The point is they got
at least seven million books from various pirate sites. And
to be fair, although the court said that using those
books to train its program was somehow fair, use, creating
a central library went too far. Jesse, I don't really
(09:29):
see the difference to you.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
No, I'm very confused because, like as someone who when
they were younger and had less money did pirate things
that was a crime. And the fact that they are
pirating things, and I actually went to the sites that
you did not mention, and you can on this one
site you can download it's like an eighty eight terabyte
(09:52):
file of just every notchiction book that they had.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
It probably wasn't even hard to download all those books.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
No, I mean, it takes some time. It's a big file.
But like it specifically said to be used for lllms,
for you know, large language models. I don't understand this,
Like there are rights, we have copyrights we have. You know,
if libraries can only give out two versions of an ebook,
I don't understand how that's allowed. Yeah, they're not allowed
to buy more ebooks at a regular price, but people
(10:19):
can just download every book to make an aim model.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I had the idea that maybe book pirrating was diminishing,
because once upon a time, it seems like, you know,
when you get the Google alerts reports your name, about
half of them were pirate sites. But I haven't seen
that in a long time. But maybe they just don't
want my books anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm with you.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
I had that same feeling.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
It felt like I was hearing much less from writer
friends about discovering their books on pirated site.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
So I was with you.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I thought maybe we were kind of trending down. There's
so many ways to get books that isn't akin to
stealing them that I thought maybe we were learning as
a collective culture.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Well. The AI problems, of course, aren't just focused on
word based things like books. Another controversial aspect of AI
are the programs that generate images, although that's still of
importance to writers because those images are usually based on
some well known intellectual property. Like Disney Characters or Star
(11:22):
Wars or something like that. Disney and Universal have now
sued a company called mid Journey. You've probably seen their
work around if you've been on social media. This is
the first time Hollywood companies have taken any kind of
legal action against these programs or the makers of these
programs that generate images. But you can see why Disney
(11:44):
owned Star Wars and like, for instance, Jesse, the graphic
I sent you on this story has Darth Vader and
it's all generated by AI our Trek of course, same
thing that you know. Are you seeing a lot of
ap doctor Trick images?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of weird Like I was
actually more Lord of the Rings than Star Trek things,
but AI videos of like if Star Trek was I
don't know, like a Western or if the Star Trek
was I've seen a lot of if Game of Thrones
was like a hillbilly show, and I was like, why
(12:21):
why are we doing this?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well, I mean I mentioned Star Trek because, of course,
I think the fandom has been huge to keeping that
franchise alive. Take it from the guy who remembers the
Great Interregnum the ten years between in the first series
of the first movie, and it was fan fiction and
stuff like that that was keeping it alive. So I
(12:44):
think the attitude with the owner's paramount has always been,
you know, as long you can write stories, you can
make films, you know, new episodes of the series, as
long as you're not making any money off it or
doing it for commercial reasons. But is this the same thing?
Is this just going to be people playing around and
(13:05):
keeping the franchise alive again?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I don't understand why they're spending so much energy and
time on creative things when they could be spending all
this time making a products that make our lives easier.
I stopped trying to make it easier for me to
organize my emails, make it easier for me to make
a to do list that tracks where I am, and
whynot stop trying to make art? But well here, yeah,
(13:30):
our art is sexy and flashy.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well here's the thing. I mentioned fan fiction because that's
been so important to not just star Trek a lot
of franchises. And a new controversy is that a Reddit
user I'm not going to say this name either, but
he scraped twelve point six million fan fictions from an
online repository called Archive of our Own and uploaded the
(13:55):
data set to hugging Face, which is a company that
hosts AI software that was discovered by the Reddit community
and they've been griping about it ever since. Now, fan fiction,
of course, is something that you usually cannot sell for profit,
and you don't you don't own the copyright, at least
(14:18):
to the characters. So is this the same or is
it still offensive that people are feeding this stuff into
their AI Jesse, what do you think you have such
a troubled expression on your face.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I just hate. I hate that we exist in a
space where they're just we have leaders who don't understand
the technology so are afraid to try to regulate it,
and we have companies with billions of dollars that just
need to create more billions of dollars to make their
stakeholders happy, and no one's we can't have the conversation
(14:54):
about what is the point of this?
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Speaking of politicians and technologies and social media, there's TikTok,
which was supposed to have, you know, been banned if
it wasn't sold, but it hasn't yet. And book talk
has been enormously important in promoting books. But now you've
got a wave of people on TikTok accusing other authors
(15:19):
of using AI, either to conceal the fact that they've
plagiarized a plot or to feed tropes into a formula.
We've got people on TikTok now who are actually taking
videos of themselves editing a manuscript to prove that they've
done it themselves, you know, rather than an AI. Laura,
(15:42):
you're the writer. Is this appalling or is it smart?
Or are you going to start doing it? What do
you think?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
No? I don't like when anybody just hops on a
bandwagon and starts complaining. I saw something online about people
were convinced that if you use an DASH, it must
have been written by AI. I think you have to
at least know what you're talking about. That's nonsense. So
when people who don't know what they're talking about, I'll
(16:10):
just kind of run after something. I don't think that
it ends well. I don't mind that they're against AI.
Have someone I have someone I'm friends with who is
working on a book and came to me and was
complaining about a co worker who didn't. According to my friend,
(16:30):
they wrote something with AI and they were putting it
out there, and friend was concerned that it was going
to be an overnight bestseller, and I'm well, well, and
I get that when we are working hard at our
craft and we see somebody who just kind of churns
something out overnight and is like, there we go, I'm
(16:51):
just going to throw it out there and see what happens.
It's not something that they've actually made, and I understand it,
but of course I've been keeping eye on it, and
it's it's not going anywhere. I think that the idea
that there's a backlash against the AI is not a
bad thing. But I would say don't just start attacking authors,
especially if you don't know for sure.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Just don't. If you think that it's not a well
written book, just don't buy it. Don't read it.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Don't And if you think that it might have been
something turned out by AI that it might be, just
don't read it.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
You know, you can.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Say, you can even review it, you can say this
didn't read well, it didn't feel good to me, I
didn't enjoy it, not a good experience. That's fine, but
I wouldn't I want to attack an author and start
accusing them of things without knowing for sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You wouldn't. But I'm shocked. But I think that these
kind of flame wars do occasionally happen on social media,
and that's probably not going to end. I like the
bottom line Jesse gave it because I think there probably
are some things that AI could do that would make
our you know, short of becoming sky Neet and taking
over the world, there are probably some good practices, but
(18:03):
keep it away from art. We don't need computers competing
with writers or visual artists or anybody else. Let's let
art be art.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, it's hard enough for artists to make a living
these days.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Why are these tech nerds and I am a fellow
tech nerd, but why are these tech nerds being like, yeah,
I'm going to create this thing to get rid of artists.
Why what did they do to you?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Yeah, we're all on.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It because they can't do it anyway. All right, enough
of that craft corner. In this episode, we're going to
be continuing this great series John Myers has given us.
We've done two previous and this third installment is about
using real life experiences in your fiction. The pros and
(18:54):
be careful the cons as well. Take it away, John.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
Craft Quarterer He everybody, Welcome to writer CON's Craft Corner.
I'm John Myers. I'm half of Write Better Together. The
other half is Emily Brooks, my business partner. She and
her husband are preparing to have a baby, so she
won't be here today. Speaking of Emily, she and I
hosted a webinar last month called Dipping into the Well
(19:23):
of your Life for inspiration living a life worth writing about.
There are things that I want to talk to you
about today that you can dip into the well of
your own life and use them. I'm going to talk
about memoir, but they apply to fictional characters as well,
and you'll see why in a second point. Number one
is your story isn't about who you think it is.
People set out to write a story, the memoir, and
(19:47):
I got news for you. This is why it's better
when Emily's here, because she'll break it to you more gently.
Unless you're Oppenheimer or Barbie, you might not have done enough,
something big enough to write your life story. Some of
you have. Some of you are doctors who have discovered
things or had a life changing recovery from something. So
some of you do, but a lot of us don't. However,
(20:11):
to use a fictional example, none of us have ever
made meth or sold meth like Walter White and breaking Bad. However,
we do have common experiences. We all know what it's
like to not be able to pay a bill, or
how am I going to take care of my family?
How am I going to recover from this disease. So
even though we don't cook and sell meth, there are
(20:32):
things in Walter White's life that we can connect with
our readers. And so that's my point number one. Your
story isn't about you. It's really about your readers. You
want to find the things that will impact your readers
because they've been through them too. Point number two, your
most powerful moments aren't the moments you think they might be.
(20:53):
We've all been around someone who scored the winning touchdown
at state in high school and now they're fifty yearyears
old and they're still talking about it. We've heard that
story and we know that story. There's no surprise, there's
no conflict, and more interesting moment would be we lost
at state because I was the star quarterback and I
(21:14):
wasn't allowed to play because I was in detention because
I skipped school with my girlfriend and we were making
out underneath the bleachers. Now that's a story. You're not
the hero, but everyone has had a failure at an
important moment in their life and they can relate to that. Finally,
number three, sharing your pivot point isn't as easy as
you think it is. Emily and I both teach college students.
(21:37):
From time to time, we'll have students right about a
pivot point they've lived through, and it'll just be I
was on spring break, we left home, got on the plane,
we went there, had a great time. There's no specific
intimate moment, but a pivot point has you were one
way on Tuesday. Pivot point happens you're another on Wednesday.
(22:01):
So I decided what my major was going to be
the freshman year at college. That's not a pivot point.
The pivot point. The interesting thing is I still had
an undeclared major in college and I was tired of
washing dishes at Applebee's.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I slipped the dish.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Broke, I cut my hand open, had to have thirteen stitches.
I'm done working at Applebee's. I'm going to go after
my dream and they're my major. That's a pivot point.
So there are things that you can do, real moments
from your life that can emotionally impact your reader. Thanks William,
Laura and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Thank you so much, John Myers. Now let's talk to
Laurie el Dove. Laurie el Dove, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I'm glad you're here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That winding and circuitous route you may find yourself on
as you're an aspiring writer is going to totally make
sense someday, and when it does, your dream will arrive
and everything will notch into place. Hang in there.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
That is so good to hear, because I've been doing
this for like thirty five years and I'm still waiting
for all colallesce. It makes sense to me, But I'm
going to take your word for it, because after all,
you got a creative writing degree from Harvard for Pete's sake, right,
so I'm not bad. And then you had several other
(23:50):
careers before writing. You're an award winning journalist, right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I am, And this writing this book was always the dream.
So to come back full circle and at fifty to
get a master's degree have this book published by one
of the Big five. It was literally a lifelong dream
come true.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah, and great results when it came out to some
of the best reviews for a debut novel or any
novel I've ever seen. And we'll get to that in
a second, I promise. But I also wanted to ask
you about teaching. You're also teaching right.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Too, and I love it. I'm teaching in a couple
of different ways. I am an adjunct professor at a
local university, and I love to teach creative writing and
media writing. I did that for a long time, and
I love the energy and hopefulness and gumption that my
students bring to what they're passionate about, and I tell
(24:50):
them follow that, follow those passions, even when it doesn't
always look like you might have an economic driver to
go full steam with it. Been there, follow it anyway.
But the other thing that I'm looking forward to is
teaching at Writer Con Yes later this year, So I'm
very excited about that. I love talking about books and
(25:12):
writing and it is literally my favorite thing to do.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yeah, you're going to be our keynote speaker on Sunday afternoon,
if I recall correctly, and doing some more teaching too.
Do you remember what some of your other topics are.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, one of the things that I want to talk
about is really, I think kind of a new concept,
which is the concept of a literary thriller. And I
think in some ways that's where my book falls. And
I've been reading a lot of books that I think
fall in that area too, So I think it's an
interesting marriage of a couple of different styles that we're
(25:48):
really seeing an upswell of right now. So I'm looking
forward to diving into that.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, well, I'll be there for that session because I
think you're totally right. All right, I've made people wait
long enough. Tell us about this fantastic debut novel, Mask
of the Dear Woman, Thank you Well.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It is centered around the idea that to find a
missing young woman, the new tribal Marshall, must first find herself.
So Carrie stars at rock Bottom. She's an ex Chicago
detective who has left the force and left the state
after the death of her teenage daughter. She returns to
(26:26):
the reservation in Oklahoma where her father was raised because
the tribe needs a new bureau of Indian Affairs Marshall
as much as she needs a place to kind of
reset and get herself together, but she's immediately embroiled in
the case of a college woman from the reservation who
(26:46):
is missing, and she really falls into that investigation that
leaves her drowning and memories of her own daughter, the
girl that she failed to save. And while she feels
in this place that she thought would welcome her, she
can't catch us a glimpse of this figure who is
(27:07):
Dear Woman, and she cannot shake the feeling that this
fearsome spirit is watching her, following her. But what she
doesn't know is whether Dear Woman is here to guide
her or to seek vengeance or the lost daughters that
star can never bring home.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Oh wow, that sounds so interesting, and I suspect that
your decision to set this on a reservation was very intentional.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what
themes you were exploring there and why you went that
route it was.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I started writing this book without really a plan for
the type of book I was writing, but what I
did have were these big questions, and for me, it
began as an exploration of identity and belonging. I'm adopted
by Mennonite farmers in Kansas, but my birth family is indigenous,
(28:06):
and I started with those big questions through this fictional
character on this fictional reservation, what might this look like
for this character from all sides. And along with that,
I have several daughters, and they're the age where they're
going out in the big wide world and they're courageous
(28:27):
and they're doing all of their own things. But I'm
still a mama, and so all of those worries I
think I kind of channeled into this book. And while
I was researching it, I came across some really shocking
statistics about missing and murdered Indigenous women. Not that I
was unaware that this is an issue, but I was
(28:47):
shocked at the prevalence of it, and the prevalence of
it in Oklahoma specifically. So that felt like a really
important thing to hopefully be able to build some awareness about.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Fantastic, excellent. I'm so passionate about women's issues. I've got
to read this book. It sounds just like my thing.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Well, you've sold one already, so this is a successful interview,
I would say, of course, since I'm the thriller guy,
I'm going to bring out that despite the serious background
issues which are very present. The reviews I read compliment
you on what a page turning thriller it is, as
suspenseful and laden with plot twists. How do you come
(29:33):
up with that stuff?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I found that after I wrote the first version of
this book, which really grew out of a short story
that I had already written them in. I was leaving
clues for my future self as I was writing, So
then it was really a matter of going back in
and recognizing those moments and layering in more tension, more suspense,
(30:00):
more mystery.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Very interesting. So this one started as a short story
that's happening. And then, how how do you think you'll
approach novels moving forward? Are you like Panther Planner? Do
you like to outline what is your process?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Like?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I am all of those things because I am very
passionate about being experimental in writing, and I am obsessed
with other writers' routines, so I will try them on
for size. If someone gets up early and writes first thing,
you know, before the sends even up, I'll try that.
If they're doing that late at night, I'll try that.
(30:42):
Whatever it is, I'm on board, so I suspect that
every time I write a book it will feel a
little different in terms of routine. The first one came
to life as a short story, and I did it
all backwards. I wrote the ending first, then I wrote
the rest of the story, and when I was done
with that, I knew that this character, Carrie Starr, had
(31:04):
a lot more to explore. She was complicated, complex, not
always likable, but there is something about her that feels
so real. And I was really excited then to be
able to kind of break that short story of part
and apply it as a framework for this first novel.
And long before I was even done with this, I
knew there was so much more of her life to
(31:27):
explore that I'm happy to say it's now a series.
The second book is with my publisher, and I'm really
excited to see where she goes next.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
I love telling people there is no one right way,
and I like hearing you echo that that whatever works works,
go with it. Whatever works for someone I think is
what they should do, and no one can tell them
it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Well, we are not immutable, and I mean that in
the best possible way. We're meant to grow and change
and try things on for size. And even if you
find a routine that really works for you, it may
not work for you later. So that's my failure. That's
an expansion.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
That's love it. I can't wait to meet you. I'm
so glad to write con love it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I am too, I'm so excited for it.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
What does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I'll leave out the dread and panic. No, I'm just kidding.
I'm actually having the time of my life, so there
really isn't much of that. But I it involves a
lot of dog So I take these writing breaks and
like pester my dogs or my children in between. But
it looks like trying to get a solid four or
(32:45):
five hours in of writing. And because I was a
journalist for so many years, I do write pretty quickly.
What slows me down are the decisions because instead of
covering a story or covering events that have already happened
or can kind of predict what might happen, every decision
is available for me to make in these books. And
(33:07):
that was really the first thing I had to learn
to grapple with. And for that, I realized that instead
of my old approach, which was, you know, sit down,
get the words out, no matter what else is going
around me. I can focus and do that. But what
I learned with this is I need a ROOMI or process.
I need a lot of time to think, to cast
(33:28):
those thought auditions in my head about well, if I
make this decision, where does it lead? Conversely, where does
this other one lead? So that's what it looks like.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
That's great, fantastic this one. The story is developing as
you are writing it. You're not discovering it, you're actually
producing it, and so it is different.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
I also find that if I give myself room.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
To breathe, that I will have more ideas that I
probably wouldn't have thought of if I had just knocked
it out really quickly and gotten it out there.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
So I think, I think you and I are gonna vibe.
I think weird.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I think so too. Yes, I really do. That sounds
very familiar to me. And I have found in this
sort of experimental process throughriting the first one that that
has really been key for me, that time to kind
of let thoughts marinate.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yes, very nice, fantastic. What are some things you've learned
kind of along the way, something that you might share
with our aspiring authors.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I think the biggest thing that I learned is something
that you have heard a lot and will continue to
hear a lot, hopefully, and that is don't quit. There
are times in life when you may be forced to
set it aside. We're always coming up against competing priorities,
(34:52):
which is normal and natural, and change is the one
constant will probably all experience. But just don't stop entirely.
Come back to it, even if it's a few stolen
minutes that you make for yourself. But come back to
it and keep coming back to it. And even when
you're in the middle of a story and you're thinking,
(35:13):
I don't know where this goes, or maybe I know
where it goes, I just don't know how to get there,
keep going. Sometimes you just have to do a thing
so that you can learn how to do a thing.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well. I love that, since that's virtually the writer com theme.
You can't fail if you refuse to quit. So perfect, Yes,
I love that. So one last question, which I think
I already know the answer to, since you said this
is going to launch it, this book is going to
launch a series, but what are you working on? Now
and what and when can we expect something new.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Cry of the Raincrow is the second book in the series.
It's with my publisher now we'll see that in twenty
twenty six. I am currently writing a third book and
a fourth standalone. I'm working on a screenplay just for
my own fun. I like to be prepared no matter
what happens, and I'm just exciting to be so fully
(36:14):
immersed in the world of books and book people who
are the best people. And I am truly having the
time of my life.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Oh that's so great to hear, Laurie. Thanks so much
for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Thank you for having me. It has been a joy.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
We'll see you in August at writer Con. Thanks so much.
Good bye bye. Now, just a few parting words because
I got nothing to talk about now. I promise there'd
be no more commercials about the Cane Break Writer's Retreat,
(36:54):
which is on July sixteenth to the twentieth, and you
can learn more about that at the website. But the
conference is definitely coming up this Labor Day weekend that's
August twenty ninth through September one in Oklahoma City. Learn
more about that on the website too. And hear more
from the wonderful lari El Dove Lara. What are you
(37:17):
looking forward or to most this year, writer, con I'm.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Still thinking about the retreat.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Okay, I'll ask you a week.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
I'm looking forward to meeting all the new people and
seeing all of our returning friends. I just watching this
family grow. It just makes my heart so happy. Last
week ye the best, and I think this year will
be the best.
Speaker 5 (37:39):
Every year is the best.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
We are growing. Our number is even this far out
from the conference are up from last year. So I
think we're gonna have a good conference.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
It's just like a great, big family reunion for me
every year. I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah. I'm excited to be back at the Scurven.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
So oh yeah, that'll be fun too. Bigger space, more room.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
We probably won't be scrambling quite so much to make
sure there are a few seats in the sessions that
get overstuffed.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Have I told you yet that we're gonna have more
sessions this year, like maybe six instead of five. You're
gonna need more microphones, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I need to talk to your people about that. Let's
get on top of the ball this time, like I
should have to be running around all day.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah, Jesse records all this sessions and then they're made
available to people who attended the conference afterwards, so you
can listen to them over and over again, all thanks
to you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Listen, I'm just excited. The servin also has a hot tub,
so let's go.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
They do have at dubs, all right. See, the excitement
is already starting to.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
Build, doubling like a hut.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yes, until next time, Keep writing, everybody, and remember, like
Laurie was telling you, you cannot fail if you refuse
to quit. See you next time.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
That dos Aran stand
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