May 27, 2015 • 59 mins
Why do people fear the single woman? In this episode, Cristen and Caroline talk to researcher Kinneret Lahad about why singledom is seen as so disruptive and why the Single by Choice movement isn't all it's cracked up to be.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp
works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen. Today we have a special guest who's
going to help us understand some of the concepts we
talked about in our first episode on Singles Week and
(00:25):
Singles by Choice, and that is Dr Kinnerett Laadge. She's
a sociologist and assistant professor in the Women and Gender
Studies program at Tel Aviv University. And in our first episode,
where we talked a lot about the single by choice
movement and the fact that, you know, frankly, people are
a little bit scared of single women. Um, we cited
(00:46):
a lot of Dr Lahad's studies, and in reading her
studies to prepare for this week these episodes, it occurred
to me, you know, I would really like to ask
her some questions. I wish we could do that. And
so you did, Caroline, and and so yeah, So I
emailed her, yeah, and and then you talked. You talked
(01:06):
to her from Israel and found out a lot more
about her research, which really ties together so many things
that we touched on, not only in our episode on
being single by Choice, but that we talked about on
the podcast a lot in general, things like single hood, obviously,
gender feminism, aging and discrimination, and some of her study titles,
(01:30):
because we love excellent study titles on the podcast. Some
of those include single Hood, Waiting in the Sociology of Time,
which is interesting because she does talk a lot about
time and how there is a gendered element to time
and aging in the context of relationship status is And
then I think my favorite is the Terror of the
(01:53):
single old Maid on the insolubility of a cultural category. Yeah, absolutely,
that is. That would be my favorite to um, just
because it's it's not that far off from reality. A
lot of people do have these terrible stereotypes about single
people in general, but specifically single women, and how that
whole issue of time is so interesting. In the time
(02:15):
for a single woman, let's say, pass like thirty five,
is almost a whole different realm than it is for
married women of the same age. Yeah, because that's when
you start to enter spinsterhood. Even today. I mean Kate Ballack,
whom we sided from the Atlantic a lot in last
episode as well, just came out with a new book
(02:35):
called Spenser. And speaking of books, you can look forward
to a forthcoming one from Dr Lahad called A Table
for One, a Critical Reading of single Hood and Time.
So this is gonna be a preview really of the
kind of research that she's going to be including in
that book. Yeah, and I made sure to ask her,
and you know this will be in the interview, but
(02:57):
I made trying to ask her about the whole single
by choice because in some of her studies she touches
on how the actual single by choice thing is a
movement is rather limiting, and so I was I was
really interested to get her take on why she's not
such a fan of the single by choice movement while
she is very supportive of single people in general. So,
(03:22):
without further ado, let's listen to Caroline's chat with Dr
Kinnerett Lahad. So I'll just get started by asking you
to introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them a
little bit about what you do for a living. Okay, Well,
my name is kin hut Um. I'm a member of
(03:46):
a program which is called the n c j w
UH Women and Gender Studies Program at Tel Aviv University, Israel,
and I white I research and I really love teaching
my students, which is really one of the unique things
about being an academic is the possibility to UM make
(04:11):
a significant change in UM in women's and men's lives. Well,
that's wonderful. And what inspired you to take this path? Why?
Why do you feel that it's important to work with
students to change their minds and change their lives. Well,
it's a good question. I can't locate it, you know,
I can't locate this at one particular moment in my life.
(04:37):
I can, you know, recall all kinds of junctures in
my in my life course UM which influenced my political thought,
my feminist consciousness. UM, I can trace some of it too.
When I was ten, my father is a diplomat so UM.
One of the posts we had was in Tooria in
(05:00):
South Africa and it was between the age of eighty
two to eighty six to still apartheid in South Africa
and UM as a ten year old, and I would say,
even twelve year old, I just couldn't understand it. I
just couldn't understand this. UM, the system in which blacks
(05:21):
are not allowed to enter the same places as white
and blacks cannot work in the same jobs. And actually
the blacks you encounter usually clean your house or drive
your car in, or clean the streets, but they cannot
sit with you in the same cafe or even in
the same bench. And I think that as a little girl,
(05:46):
um as a mature as a you know, just before
becoming a teenager, this had a tremendous impact on on
my thought, this kind of injustice which seemed, you know,
like the most natural and ordinary thing you can imagine,
you know, just you know, there are people who are
(06:08):
not who are not worthy of the same rights as others,
and it has so much and it influences one's lives
in so many respects. So I think that's one of
the points, you know, which really influenced, which really influenced
me in my life and made me want to make
(06:28):
a change in the way people thinking negress reality which
is taken for granted, in which injustice and inequality are
taken for granted. Well, you know, Kristen, and I read
several of your studies about single hood and single women
(06:49):
for our episode about single women and sort of the
culture and stigma surrounding them, and I was really curious
how you chose to focus on these issues in your research,
specifically about women singlehood and sort of the social perception
around them. Okay, Um, Well, it was really a surprise
(07:13):
for me to discover that despite the growing numbers of
single persons in the world and in Israel as well,
and despite that there is so much scholarly literature on
family and marriage and parenthood and couplehood, at the time
(07:33):
when I wrote my PhD, or when I began thinking
about what's what my PhD will be about, there was
hardly any interesting literature about single food, nothing which really
reflected the complexity of um, of the singlehood existence. And
(07:54):
what really bothered me is that how come despite UM,
the you know that our lives are are changing, and
um there is so much of course, with many limits,
but there is so much relatively more tolerance towards um
(08:14):
single motherhood. Of course, it depends where towards um queer
marriage or queer couplehood or quick parenthood. Of course, it
depends where and how these things are far are far
from being perfect. But what really amazed me was that
despite you know, this rapidly changing reality, the stigmas and
(08:38):
stereotypes against single persons is so strong. And what really
made me said is that so many single persons believe
in these stereotypes and stigmas and internalize them, and UM
constantly ask themselves why am I, sing know, what's wrong
(09:01):
with me? Why has everyone's else succeeded in their lives this?
And I'm the only one who's just you know, an
internal bridemaid or an eternal ant who is looking after
someone else's children. And I knew that the answer wouldn't be,
you know, a simple answer, because to say, oh, because
(09:25):
marriage is perceived to be a better and safer and
marriage is you know, related to UM two notions of
adulthood and success in life and respectability and civility, it's
not a good enough answer. And I discovered that this
field was really under theorized, and UM that most social
(09:49):
theory and even feminist theory is really not interested in
the single lives of men and women, and UM is
mainly preoccupied with the family and parenthood and couplehood as
the basic unit of analysis. UM. So my aim was
(10:11):
also you know, scholarly, to you know, to to engage
in a new field of research which I felt would
matter too many people's lives and could make a significant,
hopefully change in the way they perceived themselves. And also politically,
you know, to to change the way singlehood is perceived
(10:34):
and related and talked about, to talk about singlehood in
a different way. Well, I noticed that a lot of
your work touches on columns that are featured on why net,
Israel's leading internet portal, and so I'm interested in sort
of the cultural aspect of of your research and wondered
(10:54):
how much of it is shaped by Israeli attitudes towards
single women and if you found that those attitudes differ
from region to region or culture to culture. Mm hmm. Well, Um,
Israel is very pro natal and a pro familiar society. Um,
(11:14):
women's biggest achievement is considered to have babies and to
marry well and to have their own house and um,
you know, continue the legacy. And so that's you know,
the one of the vantage points that Israel is really
very familiar and nattles and the pronatal society it encourages
(11:39):
in birth. Um in really in in in in a
respect that you can't even begin to imagine in terms
of the state support, for example, in fertility clinics. And
you know, um, and the way you know, um, people
(12:00):
from a very certain age from a sorry from a
young age perceived the message, you know that to be
a citizen, to be a person, to be human, to
be a social person means um to be part of
a couple and to have children. Now, what really surprises me, um,
(12:24):
throughout the years that I've been thinking about singlehood, researching singlehood,
that the differences are aren't that dramatic between Israel and
other places I've you know, studied and read about and
you know, scholars I've encountered during the years I've been
researching singlehood and um, so I can't say, you know,
(12:51):
in this country it is less, it is less a
catastrophe than in others. I think that there are tremendous differences.
Is between the big cities to the small cities, between
you know, um, the center and periphery and um the
(13:12):
When you live in a certain urban settings, you might
have a wider single community or more I wouldn't say
a single community, but more single persons living and you know,
living arrangements which aren't slowly based on being in a
family unit. So I think that's one kind of difference
(13:34):
which is important to note. Of course, there are differences
between Israel and place in other places in the world,
in which the possibility economically and socially to be single
is almost impossible, and that you know creates you know.
Studies about, for example, about singlehood in India show that
(13:55):
that it's really you can't even begin to come pair
of being single in in Israel and being single in India.
But of course, when I say Israel, it's not just
one thing. You know, Um, there are so many differences
in Israel. In it is highly significant if you are
(14:17):
religious or not religious, if you are Jewish or Palestinian,
if you live in the village or you live in
the big city. Um, all these parameters. Um, you know,
our part of um being a single woman and enabling
(14:38):
you to be single or not to be single. So
to make a cross cultural comparison, I must say I
didn't find that very useful when I read about single
hood because, um, what really surprised me when reading about
singlehood in other countries is the how, um, how in
(15:05):
most societies, even if there can be very liberal or
radical or very open towards you know, other forms of living,
or even embracing more open views about even minorities or
sexual minorities, or having a more radical political agenda, when
(15:30):
it concerns couplehood and and children. UM. I was always
under the impression that it's fairly a traditional state of mind.
And I assume that there are places in the world
where being single is might be less problematic than in
(15:55):
other places. But it's very hard to make these generalizations.
That's what I'm saying. That I found more during the year.
During these years I've been researching singlehood, I definitely found
more similarities than differences. How interesting, Well you talked about
(16:17):
being surprised or or not surprised by some of the
differences that you found. UM, But has anything surprised you
in terms of attitudes that you've uncovered about single people,
or even statistically speaking, has anything surprised you the extent
(16:38):
the extent of the fear from being a single person
and what singlehood represents UM in the public you know,
in public culture that I must say surprised me doing
doing my research. I remember when I just began UM,
(16:58):
someone who just graduated it from Harvard UM said to me,
what is there to to write about single hood? It's
a pathology. You know, single people should just go to
a doctor and get medication or go to go to treatment.
This is you know, nothing worthy to write about. UM.
(17:20):
And this was you know, a very this was an
intellectual historian, UM, someone who whose political views are pretty
radical relatively to most people I know, and UM and
I found that this first common comment was really common,
(17:42):
whether it was explicit or implicit. You know that single
hood in many ways is a disease. There is something
wrong with you emotionally, UM, something that you didn't manage
to do right. You should cure yourself and be like
everyone else, you know, what's the problem. So you know,
(18:05):
make an effort, you know, work on yourself and it
will and just be like everyone else. What's what's the problem.
So this, this really surprised me, the extent of the
fear and the stigmas and the disbelief of UM, of
(18:25):
single hood as existing as an option for living, just
as an option for living, you know, whether you are
single for five years or forty years, you know, just
enabling it as a possibility, one possibility of you know,
(18:48):
being in this world as a man, as a woman,
as as a as a group. And this is still
not grasped as a possibility that someone would actually be
content or be at peace with because you know, there
are these are all these assumptions that no one wants
(19:09):
to be alone, or you will die alone, or you know,
all these truth claims which are very hard to challenge,
and you know you and they are backed by very
naturalized and essentialist m assumptions about what makes our lives
(19:29):
worthy living or what makes our lives you know, the
good lives and the happy lives. So I must say that,
you know, while writing about it, and you know, analyzing
the different texts, that was always amazed to discover that.
And also you know, when I constantly talked about my research.
(19:50):
For example, one of the questions which i'm which I'm
regularly asked, well are you a single person? And you know,
I use really have answered that that if I would
have lectured now about um, I don't know economical inequalities,
which if you asked me what my salary is, which
(20:11):
you know is this is a kind of a deal,
legitimate automatic um, you know, just ruling out everything you
have to say, just you know, assuming that you know,
you have to prove now that you are competent um
even to do this research, which narrows everything down if
(20:33):
you're a single person or not a single person, Well,
have you uncovered any responses to single women or or
single hood that differ based on gender. Are men or
other women more likely to view single women negatively? Um? Well,
I think that women, um are subjected to a lot
(20:57):
of pressure because you know all these beliefs biological clock
and you know the traditional role role and even you
know a destiny of a woman should be you know,
a mother and a bride. You know what what kind
of femininity can you um perform um without um having
(21:22):
or performing these these roles. But I think it's very
much also related to you know, the question of age
and time. I think that women are under a lot
of pressure from a younger age. But um, I must
say that single men after a certain age are also
(21:45):
subjected to a lot of questioning and a lot of
judgments and a lot of stereotypes like why haven't you married?
There is probably something really wrong with him? And you know,
how does one take care of of of oneself if
he's still single and constantly trying to match you know,
(22:10):
eligible partners for them. And so there are differences, but
I think that at a certain age, men suffer a
lot from these sterotaps as well. So interesting, UM, because
my next question was about whether other constructs, not just gender,
(22:32):
but other constructs like age, race, and class. Whether they
make a difference both in terms of the people being
judged for being single and the people who are doing
the judging. Have you found that yeah, of course, well, age,
of course is a significant parameter because you know, let's
ask ourselves when the singlehood begin and when the singlehood end,
(22:56):
because you know, we are all single when we are born,
but we become single when marriage becomes an option or
when couplehood becomes an option. So you become a single
as opposed to you know, as opposed to the marriage
or the couple. And of course there is a phase
(23:17):
which changes a lot, and this is um the place
where you know, um religion makes a significant um change,
you know, in terms of attitudes in which in what
age should a woman or a man marry, and of
course different cultures and there are there is an age
(23:41):
which even you know, society tells us don't hurry, you know, experiment,
you know, live with your boyfriend or girlfriend, study, you know, um,
live on your own, travel around the world, you know,
be independent, you know, establish yourself as a person, come
to marriage life and family life prepared. And then I
(24:06):
would say, at a certain stage, you know, um, it
becomes less tolerant and you know, your singlehood is not
so tolerated anymore, and um, you're become you know, there
is more and more pressure. Again. It could be very explicit,
and it could be implicit. You know, it could be
(24:27):
you know, um sentences such as what's wrong with you?
Or let's fix you up, you know, with someone we
met on the bus, blah blah blah. Everyone can ask
you why you're single and what you're going to do
with it, and it could be you know, um, manifested,
you know, in long silences and staring at you as
the only single person in a wedding or in a
(24:50):
dinner in which everyone comes as a couple, as a
couple unit. Now and of course there is a certain
stage in which in your single hood life course that
you are not relevant anymore, that you've missed your train,
that um, there is no longer any you know, any
(25:13):
any attempts to pull you into the heteronormative familial order. So,
of course age makes a huge, a huge, a huge
um difference because actually it shapes the way, it shapes
what single hood is and what it means and what
it signifies singlehood at seventeen is nothing like single hood
(25:36):
at twenty four or thirty four or sixty four. It's
not the same. It's it's an entirely different social world
and perception of who are the singles now. Class, of
course also matters a lot, because some people cannot afford
(25:57):
to be single. Some people need to be married to
survive economically. You know, in in certain societies, being single
is a privilege, is a privilege of being in having
the possibility of, um, taking care of yourself by your
(26:18):
own income or by your family income. And you know,
many many people, um, have no choice but um, but
to marry in order to be supported economically. UM. That's that's,
you know, something we have to bear in mind. So
(26:39):
when we talk about, for example, of the single by
choice movement, if such a thing, um, if we can
say that such a thing exists, I'm very I'm very
critical about this term because it actually excludes many people
who cannot choose to be single because they don't have
(27:01):
their resources to be single, whether economical resources or whether
you know, even in terms of being a necessariety in
which it is a possibility. Well, do you think the
choice when it comes to the single by choice movement.
Why do you think it is so disruptive, especially if
(27:23):
you're if you're broadcasting, are talking about the choice that
you've made to remain single. Why is that scene is
so disruptive to so many people or to society. It's
a very big question. It's a very long answer. But
but but first again, I want to stress that that
I don't like the notion of choice or the rhetoric
(27:44):
of choice because it um it it misses out a
lot of the complexities of our lives in which you know,
and I think also in terms of the single existence,
you know, I think um choices is a limited term
because you always choose from a limited you know, possibilities
(28:05):
that you have, and some people have more possibilities than others.
So that's, you know, one one part of my answer
to your question. Now, I think that um the single
by choice is so disruptive and so discredited because of
these assumptions that no one in the right mind could
(28:29):
possibly wish to be alone, you know. This is this
being alone is conceived as a punishment, you know, and
something that no one would possibly want to So this
is I think one belief that you know, people say
it's against nature, you know, and automatically, you know, these
(28:54):
people who claim we are comfortable with being single or
it's okay, you know, to day, I'm fine with being single.
I don't know what will happen tomorrow, but today I'm fine.
I enjoy my I'm enjoying my life. I have my
hobbies and I enjoy being you know, meeting with friends,
(29:14):
having a rich community life, volunteering, having a career. You know,
you there are so many options of living your life
which are not necessarily you know, boiled down to family
and children. So but this very claim is automatically discredited,
(29:35):
as you know, I think that often people say, oh,
he's just I'm lying to himself, or she's just pretending
to being comfortable in being single. At the moment, you know,
the right guy will come, or the right guy will propose,
she will, you know, automatically forget this stupid, you know ideology.
(29:55):
She's just covering up her failure. And these beliefs are
very strong, you know, it's very hard um to deconstruct
them because there are related to the very fact you
know that no one in their right mind or no
one could possibly dream or wish for the possibility of
(30:20):
not having a husband, or not having or not being
a mother or a father. So I think it's part
of it. It's a long answer, it's a much it's
it's not a short answer, but it's part of an answer.
I can I can try to well. I mean, it's
definitely complex, but it is still but it is still
(30:46):
very disruptive. It's it is really unbelievable how much anger
and disbelief and and mainly, you know, people don't want
to listen, you know, to these voices. And there are
these voice says. They exist, they exist in you know,
in self help books, and a wonderful scholar from Australia
(31:10):
has written about it, and I have written about it
in Hebrew as well. There are these online columns and
online blogs and you know, and Bella di Paolo, she's
a wonderful um singlehood scholar psychologists psychologists UM from the
States who regularly writes about it and tries, you know,
(31:30):
to change the what she terms of single ism as
a discrimination and um discrimination and stereotypes that single person
are subject to. So there are these voices, but there
are constantly silenced and um and you know, just oh,
(31:51):
they're not serious. Oh, they're just it's temporary, because singlehood
is always conceived or perceived as something which can only
be a temperary me not something that one could relatively that,
not one that one could possibly, not relatively possibly would
wish for. This is not the dream that we've been
(32:13):
raised on, you know. This is not what we've been
told when we were when we were three and four,
we were told that one day he'll come along the
men I love, and he'll be being as strong the
men I love, and when he comes my way, I'll
do my best to make him stay the prince charming myth. Yeah, yeah, definitely,
(32:35):
And we've been socialized. It's very hard to to to
debut this well since people since people do tend to
view singlehood as this transitory, temporary phase on the way
to marriage and babies and prince charming. Um. I'm interested
in in asking you about your study singlehood Waiting in
(32:57):
the Sociology of Time, because in it you talk about
the issue of women and waiting in a way that
I've never really considered before. You write, the social representation
of waiting to be married is still more visible when
it concerns women, and so how do you think that
things like time or in this case specifically waiting become
(33:21):
gendered like that. How are they so different for women?
Mm hmm, it's a good question. Um. Well, first of all, um,
what what doing? Surprised me when I began looking into
singlehood because actually my first thought was writing about single
hood and emotions, you know, of how emotions are constructed
(33:44):
in relation to single hood, emotions such as, um, shame
for example, the shame of single hood or the shame
of being single. And when I when I began analyzing
the text and you know, going through the literature, I
was surprised that most of the sayings which concern single
(34:06):
women are related to time. For example, um, you're about
to miss your train or soon at your wedding. You know,
inhabrew it a very popular wish When you wish someone
you know at a wedding or at a or even
at a birthday party, you automatically say, oh soon at
(34:27):
your soon, at yours? There you are about to need
to be next, you are next in line, and you
know you constantly ask when and you know, and when
is this going to happen? And why haven't you settled
down yet? And our language when we think of um.
(34:48):
Of single hood is really written with UM perceptions of
time and the very fact that you know that the
perception of single hood as a transitory phase is related
as you know, just waiting waiting for for this UM person,
(35:09):
for your soul mate to come along and rescue you
from your endless and hopeless sometimes wait. And this is
something that is very difficult to UM to debunk in
terms of thinking about singlehood not as a waiting position,
because you you view your whole life as temporary and
(35:34):
at times not meaningful, which can only be meaningful when
this waiting phase will end. Now waiting and and this
has been argued by by really wonderful scholars who have
studied the phenomena of waiting that waiting also reflects relations
(35:55):
of power and UM. There are those who are way
thing and there are those who are waited for Let's
think for example of the doctor. So the very fact
that you are you are defined as a person in
waiting means that you are vulnerable, that you have less power,
(36:16):
that you have less agency, that you are waiting for
something UM, for something real, something better to happen to
your life and change it. You can also look by
the way about two. You can also look at UM
commercials for dating websites. One of the most popular UM
(36:41):
I think it was metchcom um metch dot com was
you know, stop waiting to start dating. And this is,
you know, a slogan which repeats itself in many slogans.
You know, take responsibility for your life. Stop waiting, because
the worst scenario is to be in this position, you know,
(37:02):
of being passive, of just waiting for, you know, for
your life to to change. So it just means that
your life at the moment is not really worthy. It's
not really um you don't really have something meaningful in
your life until you engage in in marriage and children.
(37:24):
That's the sort of message I think many women from
a certain age encounter in all kinds of messages they perceive. Well, so,
at what point do you think that women go from
being smart about being or seen as being smart about
being selective, to being seen as just a wasting time
(37:46):
and being too selective in their search for a mate
or even in just just existing not even actively searching
for a mate. Yeah. Well, again comes the parameter or
the factor of time of age and time, because you know,
you can be select beggars cannot be choosers. Right, So,
(38:09):
when you're in a position in which allegedly the social
perceptions UM are that you have, you know you can
select because you're in the right age, you have the
right looks, UM, you're in the right you know, kind
of social circle in which you can you can find
(38:32):
your find your lid. Then you know you're smart about
being selective. You're not. You know, you're not in a hurry.
Your selectiveness is even admired. You know you have you know,
you have all the possibilities. But as a single woman,
you know is UM can be at the risk of
(38:54):
gradually turning into an old maid. Then her selectiveness become
just you know, another form of self deception or even
you know, a pathology. UM. There is even this term
called chronic single hood, into which means you know that
there are people you know who are just too selective,
(39:16):
you know who just you know, are just trapped in
their own selectiveness and choosingness. And in that respect, you know,
when you say beggars cannot be choosers, you refer to
women about a certain age as someone who do who
does not have too many options, and therefore her selectiveness
(39:38):
is just empty and there are so many contradictory messages
which are single women you know, encounter you know, just compromise,
you know, just do the right thing. And you know,
many single women ask how can I compromise? Compromise and
what And you know, it's very funny to the all
(40:00):
these self help guides and all these online columns and
you know, meet and experts, you know, having you know,
this kind of solution on how to compromise. So basically,
selectiveness at a certain age is not an option. It's
is just a disguise. It is a pathology. It's a
(40:21):
very interesting transition. Well, I wonder whether our pop culture
is helping or hurting in terms of the image that
we have of the single woman, especially the single woman
above a certain age. And so what do you what
do you think what does it mean for us? That's
so many movie and TV plots about single women and
(40:44):
with their redemption through finally finding a man. You know,
you have Bridget Jones and Sex in the City, and
both of the protagonists in those plots were women, you know,
who weren't twenty four anymore. So, So what do you think?
What do think that says about us? Well? I think
that I'm really you asked me before if I was surprised,
(41:09):
So I'm still surprised how traditional and how conservative popular
culture is when it comes to um perceptions of single hood.
Sometimes my students asked me if if I know any
alternatives social scripts which are represented in movies or television series,
(41:31):
and it's very hard to find ones. It's it's quite
surprising how rare are these alternative scripts of single hood
as a form of living, you know, as a way
of living just as you know, you choose or you
don't choose, or you know, just as just as another
(41:52):
aspect of your life, not totally depicting who you are
and what you are. But um, there is always you know,
this this character of you know, of this single woman
who just you know, all she wants to do is
you know, be rescued and be saved by by Prince Charming. Um.
(42:16):
So I think that popular culture, UM unfortunately has yet
to offer single women and I think men alternative images
of singlehood. There are these alternatives online, which is fascinating
in terms of blogs and in terms of online columns,
(42:39):
and in terms of self help books, but in main
most mainstream movies and television series, it is so traditional
and conservative even when it presents itself as something radical,
and it again it shows us, you know, how these
perceptions are so um strongly embedded in you know, our
(43:05):
collective perceptions of what is perceived to be, you know,
the right life course or the good and worthy lives. Well,
so far, not only our conversation, but really a lot
of the whether it's columns you read online or the
self help type books that you read, a lot of
(43:26):
those conversations pretty much focus on single heterosexual women. And
so I'm wondering if you have found that any of
the attitudes and other things you've uncovered in your research,
if any of those attitudes and social pressures and stereotypes
also affect lesbian and bisexual women. Yes, definitely, definitely, So
(43:48):
I think that, Um, of course I haven't studied it,
but I am interested in that. And surprisingly, there is
hardly any research done about that issue, and I hope
there will be at a certain stage, you know, because
singlehood is gradually becoming um, there are more and more
people writing about singlehood. So I'm waiting, I'm a scholar
(44:13):
in waiting for someone um to engage in that. But
from what I read and from my general impression. Of course,
there are differences and the expectations can be are articulated
in a different way or in a different you know, terminology.
(44:35):
But UM, in Israel, I could definitely say that there
are there is a very interesting baby boom among you know,
also homosexuals and UM, bisexuals and UM lesbians and um.
They are also becoming more and more subjected to a
(44:57):
lot of pressures of being up old and having children
and UM there are many you know, UM, there is
in what Lisa Dagon you know terms as homonormativity. I
can definitely say that, um, you are expected to be
in a couple in in in many ways, which it
(45:21):
has of course differences in terms of age, you know,
the age limit is a bit different. But my own
perception is that also if you look at most UM
move most of the traditional movies or mainstream movies in
which um um homosexual or lesbians are so little which
(45:47):
concern UM, so few which concern bisexuals. But UM still
you know, the plot usually is with a happy ending,
or the plot usually revolved around you know, it's a
plot about you know, couplehood and having affairs and UM.
Now more and more UM more and more TV series
(46:10):
gauge of course with questions of parenthood. But um, it
is interesting that the very transition or you know, the
if in certain parts of society there is more legitimacy.
It is also this kind of legitimacy comes the expectation
to be and of course I'm I'm not saying it,
(46:34):
you know, as something I mean, you know, to become normal,
to become like us. And um, what Lisa Duggan talks
about when she talks about home and normativity is you know,
being like us, is you know, entering you know, the
couple unit and reproducing like us, being part of society.
(46:54):
This is considered by many, you know, as an indication
of being normal, being healthy, being acceptable. So essentially what
you're saying is that as society basically becomes more okay
with uh, the lgbt Q community, a sign of that
is also saying okay, well you're here and we accept you,
(47:17):
and now you better start getting married and having babies
to fit into society. Yeah, yeah, you know, of course
it's a very you know, general way of saying it.
And of course, and of course they were we're still
very very far you know, the l g two B
movement is still you know, suffers from a lot of
(47:37):
stigmas and stereotypes and discrimination everywhere in so many different ways.
But I would say that one of the messages that um,
that um we can hear is Yeah, being normal means
being you know, performing, you know, heteronormativity is performing as
(48:03):
being part of society through getting married and having having children.
This is of course not not my claim. A couple
of very interesting queer queer scholars have have argued it
before me. And that's a fascinating topic, right to think about,
you know, about the possibility of being single about a
(48:24):
certain age, you know, at different um sexual orientations. Well,
Dr Laha, do you've you've basically answered all of my questions,
all of my very many questions for you. And so
I'm wondering, is there anything about single hood or single stigma,
or or single women in general that you feel like
we didn't touch on that you think our listeners would
(48:46):
be interested in. Um, there is one thing, and this
is something now that I've been thinking a lot about,
is how to politicize singlehood in terms of how to
talk about single hood which is not only related, you know,
in which does not only relate with the need to
(49:06):
combat stereotypes and and and you know, and and debunking
this equation you know of single hood being unmarried, etcetera, etcetera.
And I think that one of the one of the
things we need to do is to start thinking of
singlehood as another way of living, not as a different
(49:29):
way of living, as another way of living. And talk
more about how UM, single persons are discriminated in terms
of their taxes, that they pay much more taxes in
terms of that in most societies, UM, the accommodation and
living arrangements are not suited for a single person's UM.
(49:52):
You know, talk about you know, as every you know
claim make you know, public clear aims, and talk about
rights and UM, not be in in this position in
which you have to apologize or justify your singlehood. Let's say, listen,
(50:13):
I'm single, I'm a single person, and I'm discriminated economically,
and let's do something about it. And it's pretty interesting
that there is hardly any you know, UM when you
look you know at politics, and you look at you know,
at political manifestos and um, you know, the politicians agenda.
(50:39):
You know, everyone speaks in the name of the family,
but no one thinks that, you know, single hood is
something that should be you know, represented and um fought for.
And I think that's the next step. Yeah, absolutely, And
I mean that's that's a whole other topic in terms
(51:00):
of politics and economics that we did not even get into.
But that is very important. I think it's really really important.
And and and as I mentioned before, the Paolo wrote
writes about it, and Rachel Muen, who is a legal scholar,
(51:20):
wrote many years ago and wonderful article which the title
of this article is why has said Why has Second
way feminism forgot the single woman? And unfortunately I can
say that about third wave feminism and even fourth wave
feminism and feminism today. You know, it is not on
(51:40):
the agenda of feminist organizations or a feminist theory or
you know, queer queer movements or human rights movement. It's
is it is not existent not it is not existent
as an option cognitively and even you know, politically in
(52:02):
the public sphere. And I think that you know, this transition,
this cognitive transition in our perceptions of what is single
hood can also and should also occur in terms of
new kinds of thinking about single hood in political terms. Absolutely. Well,
(52:23):
thank you so much for talking to me today. And
could you please tell our listeners where they can find
out more both about you and about your research, and
if you have any other further reading suggestions for them. Oh,
that's a wonderful question about further reading for them. Well.
The first of all is Bella di Paolos. I've mentioned
(52:47):
her before. She has um some wonderful She has her
own blog. If you just google her you can find
a lot of information about single hood and c and H.
There are some wonderful books who have been published um
on this matter. Reynolds who wrote about the discursive um
(53:11):
or I forgot now the name, but Joe Reynolds who
wrote about a single hood, and Elaine trim Burger who
has written about the single woman as well. And um
Anita Taylor who has published her book on singlehood about
two years ago, which is also very enriching. My own
(53:33):
articles can be found on wonderful website which is called academia.
You can just um look me up academia dot com
and there you know, I have a couple of my
articles online. And hopefully in a year UM the book
(53:54):
will be published and I'll be happier and some of
my thoughts are expressed there as well. Well, wonderful. I
can't wait to pick up your book, even if we
do have to wait for a year. Yeah, is part
of our living. Yeah, bringing it all back to waiting
in time. That's right. Yeah, Well, thank you so much again,
(54:16):
it was such a pleasure talking to you. Likewise, so
thank you so much to Dr Lahad for speaking with
us and offering some reading recommendations. And if you want
to read more of Dr Lahad's work, she has a
profile over at Academia dot e D you and just
(54:40):
search for her name, which is k i in in
e r e t l a h A d kinner
it Lahad. Well, and now we want to hear from you.
We've already gotten some great letters about our Single by
Choice episode, but we want to hear what your thoughts
are about sort of your life as a single person
(55:02):
or if you have single friends. Have you experienced any
level of sort of social panic about your own relationship status.
Let us know, mom Stuff at house Stuffworks dot com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
(55:26):
So conveniently, we have a couple of letters here about
our previous episode on the single Bye Choice movement. This
one's from Vette. She says, I've seen Kristen's videos for
a while, and only this past week I found your podcast.
Welcome Evette, She says, love all the topics you cover.
Your most recent one on being single is pretty on point. Yes,
(55:46):
I told myself at thirteen years old that I would
be okay with never getting married. I confess this in
seventh grade sex ed class. My Catholic school called it
family life, and boys and girls were split into two
separate classrooms and teacher, to which my teacher responded, oh,
you'll find Mr Wright one day. You never know. And
I remember even my friends were like, you don't want
(56:08):
to get married. Some even suggested to me to become
a nun. I was a bit more Catholic at the time.
It's pretty sad to see thirteen year old girls being
weirded out by the fact that at that age I
didn't want to get married. Of course, later on in
life this question would come up every so often. It
gets worse when my Mexican family gets involved. Although lately,
(56:28):
they've been more easy on me with being okay with
that choice. I've had one serious relationship, and after we
broke up, I forgot what it was like to be single.
I've been single for the past five years, and I
enjoy it a lot. I don't need to break the
bank on dates, and I used that money to good use,
mostly for paying off student loans and traveling. Plus I
like spending time with friends more when I can. If
(56:49):
I did find that someone, I would be okay with
cohabitating with them until things didn't work out. Kids are
out of the question for me for now. I'm twenty four,
and it does get weird when I see all these
people I went to school with engaged and married and
having babies, and I'm just here like, well, good for them,
I guess, but aren't we still too young? So yeah,
single life for the wind. Thank you, Vette. And I've
(57:12):
got a letter here from Louise, and she writes, I
just finished listening to the Single by Choice episode and
have to say that it resonated with me. I was
divorced and have been single by choice ever since. I've
been the recipient of many of the comments and attitudes
discussed on the podcast. In the decade after my divorce,
I was frequently told by men in particular that I
(57:33):
was being too picky by not finding a second husband.
My gut reaction was always huh. I always felt as
if I was being criticized by men who are neither
good looking nor interesting as individuals. I don't have a
Monel type body, but I am and always have been
very active, running, biking, backpacking, kayaking. It was as if
(57:54):
I couldn't live a full and happy life without a
man in it. I had the opposite interaction with women,
and it's something that you didn't discuss in the podcast.
My female friends often said they were jealous of me
because I could do what I want when I want.
They also felt that not having to discuss or compromise
on household issues was a positive thing, especially when it
came to decisions about raising my two children. While they
(58:16):
didn't envy my single parenthood, these comments were always honest,
never meant to be snied or hurtful. I enjoy being
single and living alone. When my family comes to visit
or we go on family vacations, I find that I'm
always ready by vacations and to be back in my
apartment and have some alone time. I never regretted my
single life. I'm fifty four years old and wouldn't trade
it for anything. People may say that it's because I
(58:38):
came from quote a broken home or had a quote
bad marriage, but aren't we all products of our environments
and gene expressions. I did not choose single life because
of negative experiences. I chose a single life because it
deep down inside it makes me happy, content and fulfilled.
So thanks for your perspective, Luise, and keep your single
(58:59):
by choice effectives coming. Friends. Mom Stuff at how stuff
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with
links to Dr Lahad's work. So you can read up
on more single by choice research. Head on over to
stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on
(59:24):
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
works dot com
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp
works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen. Today we have a special guest who's
going to help us understand some of the concepts we
talked about in our first episode on Singles Week and
(00:25):
Singles by Choice, and that is Dr Kinnerett Laadge. She's
a sociologist and assistant professor in the Women and Gender
Studies program at Tel Aviv University. And in our first episode,
where we talked a lot about the single by choice
movement and the fact that, you know, frankly, people are
a little bit scared of single women. Um, we cited
(00:46):
a lot of Dr Lahad's studies, and in reading her
studies to prepare for this week these episodes, it occurred
to me, you know, I would really like to ask
her some questions. I wish we could do that. And
so you did, Caroline, and and so yeah, So I
emailed her, yeah, and and then you talked. You talked
(01:06):
to her from Israel and found out a lot more
about her research, which really ties together so many things
that we touched on, not only in our episode on
being single by Choice, but that we talked about on
the podcast a lot in general, things like single hood, obviously,
gender feminism, aging and discrimination, and some of her study titles,
(01:30):
because we love excellent study titles on the podcast. Some
of those include single Hood, Waiting in the Sociology of Time,
which is interesting because she does talk a lot about
time and how there is a gendered element to time
and aging in the context of relationship status is And
then I think my favorite is the Terror of the
(01:53):
single old Maid on the insolubility of a cultural category. Yeah, absolutely,
that is. That would be my favorite to um, just
because it's it's not that far off from reality. A
lot of people do have these terrible stereotypes about single
people in general, but specifically single women, and how that
whole issue of time is so interesting. In the time
(02:15):
for a single woman, let's say, pass like thirty five,
is almost a whole different realm than it is for
married women of the same age. Yeah, because that's when
you start to enter spinsterhood. Even today. I mean Kate Ballack,
whom we sided from the Atlantic a lot in last
episode as well, just came out with a new book
(02:35):
called Spenser. And speaking of books, you can look forward
to a forthcoming one from Dr Lahad called A Table
for One, a Critical Reading of single Hood and Time.
So this is gonna be a preview really of the
kind of research that she's going to be including in
that book. Yeah, and I made sure to ask her,
and you know this will be in the interview, but
(02:57):
I made trying to ask her about the whole single
by choice because in some of her studies she touches
on how the actual single by choice thing is a
movement is rather limiting, and so I was I was
really interested to get her take on why she's not
such a fan of the single by choice movement while
she is very supportive of single people in general. So,
(03:22):
without further ado, let's listen to Caroline's chat with Dr
Kinnerett Lahad. So I'll just get started by asking you
to introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them a
little bit about what you do for a living. Okay, Well,
my name is kin hut Um. I'm a member of
(03:46):
a program which is called the n c j w
UH Women and Gender Studies Program at Tel Aviv University, Israel,
and I white I research and I really love teaching
my students, which is really one of the unique things
about being an academic is the possibility to UM make
(04:11):
a significant change in UM in women's and men's lives. Well,
that's wonderful. And what inspired you to take this path? Why?
Why do you feel that it's important to work with
students to change their minds and change their lives. Well,
it's a good question. I can't locate it, you know,
I can't locate this at one particular moment in my life.
(04:37):
I can, you know, recall all kinds of junctures in
my in my life course UM which influenced my political thought,
my feminist consciousness. UM, I can trace some of it too.
When I was ten, my father is a diplomat so UM.
One of the posts we had was in Tooria in
(05:00):
South Africa and it was between the age of eighty
two to eighty six to still apartheid in South Africa
and UM as a ten year old, and I would say,
even twelve year old, I just couldn't understand it. I
just couldn't understand this. UM, the system in which blacks
(05:21):
are not allowed to enter the same places as white
and blacks cannot work in the same jobs. And actually
the blacks you encounter usually clean your house or drive
your car in, or clean the streets, but they cannot
sit with you in the same cafe or even in
the same bench. And I think that as a little girl,
(05:46):
um as a mature as a you know, just before
becoming a teenager, this had a tremendous impact on on
my thought, this kind of injustice which seemed, you know,
like the most natural and ordinary thing you can imagine,
you know, just you know, there are people who are
(06:08):
not who are not worthy of the same rights as others,
and it has so much and it influences one's lives
in so many respects. So I think that's one of
the points, you know, which really influenced, which really influenced
me in my life and made me want to make
(06:28):
a change in the way people thinking negress reality which
is taken for granted, in which injustice and inequality are
taken for granted. Well, you know, Kristen, and I read
several of your studies about single hood and single women
(06:49):
for our episode about single women and sort of the
culture and stigma surrounding them, and I was really curious
how you chose to focus on these issues in your research,
specifically about women singlehood and sort of the social perception
around them. Okay, Um, Well, it was really a surprise
(07:13):
for me to discover that despite the growing numbers of
single persons in the world and in Israel as well,
and despite that there is so much scholarly literature on
family and marriage and parenthood and couplehood, at the time
(07:33):
when I wrote my PhD, or when I began thinking
about what's what my PhD will be about, there was
hardly any interesting literature about single food, nothing which really
reflected the complexity of um, of the singlehood existence. And
(07:54):
what really bothered me is that how come despite UM,
the you know that our lives are are changing, and
um there is so much of course, with many limits,
but there is so much relatively more tolerance towards um
(08:14):
single motherhood. Of course, it depends where towards um queer
marriage or queer couplehood or quick parenthood. Of course, it
depends where and how these things are far are far
from being perfect. But what really amazed me was that
despite you know, this rapidly changing reality, the stigmas and
(08:38):
stereotypes against single persons is so strong. And what really
made me said is that so many single persons believe
in these stereotypes and stigmas and internalize them, and UM
constantly ask themselves why am I, sing know, what's wrong
(09:01):
with me? Why has everyone's else succeeded in their lives this?
And I'm the only one who's just you know, an
internal bridemaid or an eternal ant who is looking after
someone else's children. And I knew that the answer wouldn't be,
you know, a simple answer, because to say, oh, because
(09:25):
marriage is perceived to be a better and safer and
marriage is you know, related to UM two notions of
adulthood and success in life and respectability and civility, it's
not a good enough answer. And I discovered that this
field was really under theorized, and UM that most social
(09:49):
theory and even feminist theory is really not interested in
the single lives of men and women, and UM is
mainly preoccupied with the family and parenthood and couplehood as
the basic unit of analysis. UM. So my aim was
(10:11):
also you know, scholarly, to you know, to to engage
in a new field of research which I felt would
matter too many people's lives and could make a significant,
hopefully change in the way they perceived themselves. And also politically,
you know, to to change the way singlehood is perceived
(10:34):
and related and talked about, to talk about singlehood in
a different way. Well, I noticed that a lot of
your work touches on columns that are featured on why net,
Israel's leading internet portal, and so I'm interested in sort
of the cultural aspect of of your research and wondered
(10:54):
how much of it is shaped by Israeli attitudes towards
single women and if you found that those attitudes differ
from region to region or culture to culture. Mm hmm. Well, Um,
Israel is very pro natal and a pro familiar society. Um,
(11:14):
women's biggest achievement is considered to have babies and to
marry well and to have their own house and um,
you know, continue the legacy. And so that's you know,
the one of the vantage points that Israel is really
very familiar and nattles and the pronatal society it encourages
(11:39):
in birth. Um in really in in in in a
respect that you can't even begin to imagine in terms
of the state support, for example, in fertility clinics. And
you know, um, and the way you know, um, people
(12:00):
from a very certain age from a sorry from a
young age perceived the message, you know that to be
a citizen, to be a person, to be human, to
be a social person means um to be part of
a couple and to have children. Now, what really surprises me, um,
(12:24):
throughout the years that I've been thinking about singlehood, researching singlehood,
that the differences are aren't that dramatic between Israel and
other places I've you know, studied and read about and
you know, scholars I've encountered during the years I've been
researching singlehood and um, so I can't say, you know,
(12:51):
in this country it is less, it is less a
catastrophe than in others. I think that there are tremendous differences.
Is between the big cities to the small cities, between
you know, um, the center and periphery and um the
(13:12):
When you live in a certain urban settings, you might
have a wider single community or more I wouldn't say
a single community, but more single persons living and you know,
living arrangements which aren't slowly based on being in a
family unit. So I think that's one kind of difference
(13:34):
which is important to note. Of course, there are differences
between Israel and place in other places in the world,
in which the possibility economically and socially to be single
is almost impossible, and that you know creates you know.
Studies about, for example, about singlehood in India show that
(13:55):
that it's really you can't even begin to come pair
of being single in in Israel and being single in India.
But of course, when I say Israel, it's not just
one thing. You know, Um, there are so many differences
in Israel. In it is highly significant if you are
(14:17):
religious or not religious, if you are Jewish or Palestinian,
if you live in the village or you live in
the big city. Um, all these parameters. Um, you know,
our part of um being a single woman and enabling
(14:38):
you to be single or not to be single. So
to make a cross cultural comparison, I must say I
didn't find that very useful when I read about single
hood because, um, what really surprised me when reading about
singlehood in other countries is the how, um, how in
(15:05):
most societies, even if there can be very liberal or
radical or very open towards you know, other forms of living,
or even embracing more open views about even minorities or
sexual minorities, or having a more radical political agenda, when
(15:30):
it concerns couplehood and and children. UM. I was always
under the impression that it's fairly a traditional state of mind.
And I assume that there are places in the world
where being single is might be less problematic than in
(15:55):
other places. But it's very hard to make these generalizations.
That's what I'm saying. That I found more during the year.
During these years I've been researching singlehood, I definitely found
more similarities than differences. How interesting, Well you talked about
(16:17):
being surprised or or not surprised by some of the
differences that you found. UM, But has anything surprised you
in terms of attitudes that you've uncovered about single people,
or even statistically speaking, has anything surprised you the extent
(16:38):
the extent of the fear from being a single person
and what singlehood represents UM in the public you know,
in public culture that I must say surprised me doing
doing my research. I remember when I just began UM,
(16:58):
someone who just graduated it from Harvard UM said to me,
what is there to to write about single hood? It's
a pathology. You know, single people should just go to
a doctor and get medication or go to go to treatment.
This is you know, nothing worthy to write about. UM.
(17:20):
And this was you know, a very this was an
intellectual historian, UM, someone who whose political views are pretty
radical relatively to most people I know, and UM and
I found that this first common comment was really common,
(17:42):
whether it was explicit or implicit. You know that single
hood in many ways is a disease. There is something
wrong with you emotionally, UM, something that you didn't manage
to do right. You should cure yourself and be like
everyone else, you know, what's the problem. So you know,
(18:05):
make an effort, you know, work on yourself and it
will and just be like everyone else. What's what's the problem.
So this, this really surprised me, the extent of the
fear and the stigmas and the disbelief of UM, of
(18:25):
single hood as existing as an option for living, just
as an option for living, you know, whether you are
single for five years or forty years, you know, just
enabling it as a possibility, one possibility of you know,
(18:48):
being in this world as a man, as a woman,
as as a as a group. And this is still
not grasped as a possibility that someone would actually be
content or be at peace with because you know, there
are these are all these assumptions that no one wants
(19:09):
to be alone, or you will die alone, or you know,
all these truth claims which are very hard to challenge,
and you know you and they are backed by very
naturalized and essentialist m assumptions about what makes our lives
(19:29):
worthy living or what makes our lives you know, the
good lives and the happy lives. So I must say that,
you know, while writing about it, and you know, analyzing
the different texts, that was always amazed to discover that.
And also you know, when I constantly talked about my research.
(19:50):
For example, one of the questions which i'm which I'm
regularly asked, well are you a single person? And you know,
I use really have answered that that if I would
have lectured now about um, I don't know economical inequalities,
which if you asked me what my salary is, which
(20:11):
you know is this is a kind of a deal,
legitimate automatic um, you know, just ruling out everything you
have to say, just you know, assuming that you know,
you have to prove now that you are competent um
even to do this research, which narrows everything down if
(20:33):
you're a single person or not a single person, Well,
have you uncovered any responses to single women or or
single hood that differ based on gender. Are men or
other women more likely to view single women negatively? Um? Well,
I think that women, um are subjected to a lot
(20:57):
of pressure because you know all these beliefs biological clock
and you know the traditional role role and even you
know a destiny of a woman should be you know,
a mother and a bride. You know what what kind
of femininity can you um perform um without um having
(21:22):
or performing these these roles. But I think it's very
much also related to you know, the question of age
and time. I think that women are under a lot
of pressure from a younger age. But um, I must
say that single men after a certain age are also
(21:45):
subjected to a lot of questioning and a lot of
judgments and a lot of stereotypes like why haven't you married?
There is probably something really wrong with him? And you know,
how does one take care of of of oneself if
he's still single and constantly trying to match you know,
(22:10):
eligible partners for them. And so there are differences, but
I think that at a certain age, men suffer a
lot from these sterotaps as well. So interesting, UM, because
my next question was about whether other constructs, not just gender,
(22:32):
but other constructs like age, race, and class. Whether they
make a difference both in terms of the people being
judged for being single and the people who are doing
the judging. Have you found that yeah, of course, well, age,
of course is a significant parameter because you know, let's
ask ourselves when the singlehood begin and when the singlehood end,
(22:56):
because you know, we are all single when we are born,
but we become single when marriage becomes an option or
when couplehood becomes an option. So you become a single
as opposed to you know, as opposed to the marriage
or the couple. And of course there is a phase
(23:17):
which changes a lot, and this is um the place
where you know, um religion makes a significant um change,
you know, in terms of attitudes in which in what
age should a woman or a man marry, and of
course different cultures and there are there is an age
(23:41):
which even you know, society tells us don't hurry, you know, experiment,
you know, live with your boyfriend or girlfriend, study, you know, um,
live on your own, travel around the world, you know,
be independent, you know, establish yourself as a person, come
to marriage life and family life prepared. And then I
(24:06):
would say, at a certain stage, you know, um, it
becomes less tolerant and you know, your singlehood is not
so tolerated anymore, and um, you're become you know, there
is more and more pressure. Again. It could be very explicit,
and it could be implicit. You know, it could be
(24:27):
you know, um sentences such as what's wrong with you?
Or let's fix you up, you know, with someone we
met on the bus, blah blah blah. Everyone can ask
you why you're single and what you're going to do
with it, and it could be you know, um, manifested,
you know, in long silences and staring at you as
the only single person in a wedding or in a
(24:50):
dinner in which everyone comes as a couple, as a
couple unit. Now and of course there is a certain
stage in which in your single hood life course that
you are not relevant anymore, that you've missed your train,
that um, there is no longer any you know, any
(25:13):
any attempts to pull you into the heteronormative familial order. So,
of course age makes a huge, a huge, a huge
um difference because actually it shapes the way, it shapes
what single hood is and what it means and what
it signifies singlehood at seventeen is nothing like single hood
(25:36):
at twenty four or thirty four or sixty four. It's
not the same. It's it's an entirely different social world
and perception of who are the singles now. Class, of
course also matters a lot, because some people cannot afford
(25:57):
to be single. Some people need to be married to
survive economically. You know, in in certain societies, being single
is a privilege, is a privilege of being in having
the possibility of, um, taking care of yourself by your
(26:18):
own income or by your family income. And you know,
many many people, um, have no choice but um, but
to marry in order to be supported economically. UM. That's that's,
you know, something we have to bear in mind. So
(26:39):
when we talk about, for example, of the single by
choice movement, if such a thing, um, if we can
say that such a thing exists, I'm very I'm very
critical about this term because it actually excludes many people
who cannot choose to be single because they don't have
(27:01):
their resources to be single, whether economical resources or whether
you know, even in terms of being a necessariety in
which it is a possibility. Well, do you think the
choice when it comes to the single by choice movement.
Why do you think it is so disruptive, especially if
(27:23):
you're if you're broadcasting, are talking about the choice that
you've made to remain single. Why is that scene is
so disruptive to so many people or to society. It's
a very big question. It's a very long answer. But
but but first again, I want to stress that that
I don't like the notion of choice or the rhetoric
(27:44):
of choice because it um it it misses out a
lot of the complexities of our lives in which you know,
and I think also in terms of the single existence,
you know, I think um choices is a limited term
because you always choose from a limited you know, possibilities
(28:05):
that you have, and some people have more possibilities than others.
So that's, you know, one one part of my answer
to your question. Now, I think that um the single
by choice is so disruptive and so discredited because of
these assumptions that no one in the right mind could
(28:29):
possibly wish to be alone, you know. This is this
being alone is conceived as a punishment, you know, and
something that no one would possibly want to So this
is I think one belief that you know, people say
it's against nature, you know, and automatically, you know, these
(28:54):
people who claim we are comfortable with being single or
it's okay, you know, to day, I'm fine with being single.
I don't know what will happen tomorrow, but today I'm fine.
I enjoy my I'm enjoying my life. I have my
hobbies and I enjoy being you know, meeting with friends,
(29:14):
having a rich community life, volunteering, having a career. You know,
you there are so many options of living your life
which are not necessarily you know, boiled down to family
and children. So but this very claim is automatically discredited,
(29:35):
as you know, I think that often people say, oh,
he's just I'm lying to himself, or she's just pretending
to being comfortable in being single. At the moment, you know,
the right guy will come, or the right guy will propose,
she will, you know, automatically forget this stupid, you know ideology.
(29:55):
She's just covering up her failure. And these beliefs are
very strong, you know, it's very hard um to deconstruct
them because there are related to the very fact you
know that no one in their right mind or no
one could possibly dream or wish for the possibility of
(30:20):
not having a husband, or not having or not being
a mother or a father. So I think it's part
of it. It's a long answer, it's a much it's
it's not a short answer, but it's part of an answer.
I can I can try to well. I mean, it's
definitely complex, but it is still but it is still
(30:46):
very disruptive. It's it is really unbelievable how much anger
and disbelief and and mainly, you know, people don't want
to listen, you know, to these voices. And there are
these voice says. They exist, they exist in you know,
in self help books, and a wonderful scholar from Australia
(31:10):
has written about it, and I have written about it
in Hebrew as well. There are these online columns and
online blogs and you know, and Bella di Paolo, she's
a wonderful um singlehood scholar psychologists psychologists UM from the
States who regularly writes about it and tries, you know,
(31:30):
to change the what she terms of single ism as
a discrimination and um discrimination and stereotypes that single person
are subject to. So there are these voices, but there
are constantly silenced and um and you know, just oh,
(31:51):
they're not serious. Oh, they're just it's temporary, because singlehood
is always conceived or perceived as something which can only
be a temperary me not something that one could relatively that,
not one that one could possibly, not relatively possibly would
wish for. This is not the dream that we've been
(32:13):
raised on, you know. This is not what we've been
told when we were when we were three and four,
we were told that one day he'll come along the
men I love, and he'll be being as strong the
men I love, and when he comes my way, I'll
do my best to make him stay the prince charming myth. Yeah, yeah, definitely,
(32:35):
And we've been socialized. It's very hard to to to
debut this well since people since people do tend to
view singlehood as this transitory, temporary phase on the way
to marriage and babies and prince charming. Um. I'm interested
in in asking you about your study singlehood Waiting in
(32:57):
the Sociology of Time, because in it you talk about
the issue of women and waiting in a way that
I've never really considered before. You write, the social representation
of waiting to be married is still more visible when
it concerns women, and so how do you think that
things like time or in this case specifically waiting become
(33:21):
gendered like that. How are they so different for women?
Mm hmm, it's a good question. Um. Well, first of all, um,
what what doing? Surprised me when I began looking into
singlehood because actually my first thought was writing about single
hood and emotions, you know, of how emotions are constructed
(33:44):
in relation to single hood, emotions such as, um, shame
for example, the shame of single hood or the shame
of being single. And when I when I began analyzing
the text and you know, going through the literature, I
was surprised that most of the sayings which concern single
(34:06):
women are related to time. For example, um, you're about
to miss your train or soon at your wedding. You know,
inhabrew it a very popular wish When you wish someone
you know at a wedding or at a or even
at a birthday party, you automatically say, oh soon at
(34:27):
your soon, at yours? There you are about to need
to be next, you are next in line, and you
know you constantly ask when and you know, and when
is this going to happen? And why haven't you settled
down yet? And our language when we think of um.
(34:48):
Of single hood is really written with UM perceptions of
time and the very fact that you know that the
perception of single hood as a transitory phase is related
as you know, just waiting waiting for for this UM person,
(35:09):
for your soul mate to come along and rescue you
from your endless and hopeless sometimes wait. And this is
something that is very difficult to UM to debunk in
terms of thinking about singlehood not as a waiting position,
because you you view your whole life as temporary and
(35:34):
at times not meaningful, which can only be meaningful when
this waiting phase will end. Now waiting and and this
has been argued by by really wonderful scholars who have
studied the phenomena of waiting that waiting also reflects relations
(35:55):
of power and UM. There are those who are way
thing and there are those who are waited for Let's
think for example of the doctor. So the very fact
that you are you are defined as a person in
waiting means that you are vulnerable, that you have less power,
(36:16):
that you have less agency, that you are waiting for
something UM, for something real, something better to happen to
your life and change it. You can also look by
the way about two. You can also look at UM
commercials for dating websites. One of the most popular UM
(36:41):
I think it was metchcom um metch dot com was
you know, stop waiting to start dating. And this is,
you know, a slogan which repeats itself in many slogans.
You know, take responsibility for your life. Stop waiting, because
the worst scenario is to be in this position, you know,
(37:02):
of being passive, of just waiting for, you know, for
your life to to change. So it just means that
your life at the moment is not really worthy. It's
not really um you don't really have something meaningful in
your life until you engage in in marriage and children.
(37:24):
That's the sort of message I think many women from
a certain age encounter in all kinds of messages they perceive. Well, so,
at what point do you think that women go from
being smart about being or seen as being smart about
being selective, to being seen as just a wasting time
(37:46):
and being too selective in their search for a mate
or even in just just existing not even actively searching
for a mate. Yeah. Well, again comes the parameter or
the factor of time of age and time, because you know,
you can be select beggars cannot be choosers. Right, So,
(38:09):
when you're in a position in which allegedly the social
perceptions UM are that you have, you know you can
select because you're in the right age, you have the
right looks, UM, you're in the right you know, kind
of social circle in which you can you can find
(38:32):
your find your lid. Then you know you're smart about
being selective. You're not. You know, you're not in a hurry.
Your selectiveness is even admired. You know you have you know,
you have all the possibilities. But as a single woman,
you know is UM can be at the risk of
(38:54):
gradually turning into an old maid. Then her selectiveness become
just you know, another form of self deception or even
you know, a pathology. UM. There is even this term
called chronic single hood, into which means you know that
there are people you know who are just too selective,
(39:16):
you know who just you know, are just trapped in
their own selectiveness and choosingness. And in that respect, you know,
when you say beggars cannot be choosers, you refer to
women about a certain age as someone who do who
does not have too many options, and therefore her selectiveness
(39:38):
is just empty and there are so many contradictory messages
which are single women you know, encounter you know, just compromise,
you know, just do the right thing. And you know,
many single women ask how can I compromise? Compromise and
what And you know, it's very funny to the all
(40:00):
these self help guides and all these online columns and
you know, meet and experts, you know, having you know,
this kind of solution on how to compromise. So basically,
selectiveness at a certain age is not an option. It's
is just a disguise. It is a pathology. It's a
(40:21):
very interesting transition. Well, I wonder whether our pop culture
is helping or hurting in terms of the image that
we have of the single woman, especially the single woman
above a certain age. And so what do you what
do you think what does it mean for us? That's
so many movie and TV plots about single women and
(40:44):
with their redemption through finally finding a man. You know,
you have Bridget Jones and Sex in the City, and
both of the protagonists in those plots were women, you know,
who weren't twenty four anymore. So, So what do you think?
What do think that says about us? Well? I think
that I'm really you asked me before if I was surprised,
(41:09):
So I'm still surprised how traditional and how conservative popular
culture is when it comes to um perceptions of single hood.
Sometimes my students asked me if if I know any
alternatives social scripts which are represented in movies or television series,
(41:31):
and it's very hard to find ones. It's it's quite
surprising how rare are these alternative scripts of single hood
as a form of living, you know, as a way
of living just as you know, you choose or you
don't choose, or you know, just as just as another
(41:52):
aspect of your life, not totally depicting who you are
and what you are. But um, there is always you know,
this this character of you know, of this single woman
who just you know, all she wants to do is
you know, be rescued and be saved by by Prince Charming. Um.
(42:16):
So I think that popular culture, UM unfortunately has yet
to offer single women and I think men alternative images
of singlehood. There are these alternatives online, which is fascinating
in terms of blogs and in terms of online columns,
(42:39):
and in terms of self help books, but in main
most mainstream movies and television series, it is so traditional
and conservative even when it presents itself as something radical,
and it again it shows us, you know, how these
perceptions are so um strongly embedded in you know, our
(43:05):
collective perceptions of what is perceived to be, you know,
the right life course or the good and worthy lives. Well,
so far, not only our conversation, but really a lot
of the whether it's columns you read online or the
self help type books that you read, a lot of
(43:26):
those conversations pretty much focus on single heterosexual women. And
so I'm wondering if you have found that any of
the attitudes and other things you've uncovered in your research,
if any of those attitudes and social pressures and stereotypes
also affect lesbian and bisexual women. Yes, definitely, definitely, So
(43:48):
I think that, Um, of course I haven't studied it,
but I am interested in that. And surprisingly, there is
hardly any research done about that issue, and I hope
there will be at a certain stage, you know, because
singlehood is gradually becoming um, there are more and more
people writing about singlehood. So I'm waiting, I'm a scholar
(44:13):
in waiting for someone um to engage in that. But
from what I read and from my general impression. Of course,
there are differences and the expectations can be are articulated
in a different way or in a different you know, terminology.
(44:35):
But UM, in Israel, I could definitely say that there
are there is a very interesting baby boom among you know,
also homosexuals and UM, bisexuals and UM lesbians and um.
They are also becoming more and more subjected to a
(44:57):
lot of pressures of being up old and having children
and UM there are many you know, UM, there is
in what Lisa Dagon you know terms as homonormativity. I
can definitely say that, um, you are expected to be
in a couple in in in many ways, which it
(45:21):
has of course differences in terms of age, you know,
the age limit is a bit different. But my own
perception is that also if you look at most UM
move most of the traditional movies or mainstream movies in
which um um homosexual or lesbians are so little which
(45:47):
concern UM, so few which concern bisexuals. But UM still
you know, the plot usually is with a happy ending,
or the plot usually revolved around you know, it's a
plot about you know, couplehood and having affairs and UM.
Now more and more UM more and more TV series
(46:10):
gauge of course with questions of parenthood. But um, it
is interesting that the very transition or you know, the
if in certain parts of society there is more legitimacy.
It is also this kind of legitimacy comes the expectation
to be and of course I'm I'm not saying it,
(46:34):
you know, as something I mean, you know, to become normal,
to become like us. And um, what Lisa Duggan talks
about when she talks about home and normativity is you know,
being like us, is you know, entering you know, the
couple unit and reproducing like us, being part of society.
(46:54):
This is considered by many, you know, as an indication
of being normal, being healthy, being acceptable. So essentially what
you're saying is that as society basically becomes more okay
with uh, the lgbt Q community, a sign of that
is also saying okay, well you're here and we accept you,
(47:17):
and now you better start getting married and having babies
to fit into society. Yeah, yeah, you know, of course
it's a very you know, general way of saying it.
And of course, and of course they were we're still
very very far you know, the l g two B
movement is still you know, suffers from a lot of
(47:37):
stigmas and stereotypes and discrimination everywhere in so many different ways.
But I would say that one of the messages that um,
that um we can hear is Yeah, being normal means
being you know, performing, you know, heteronormativity is performing as
(48:03):
being part of society through getting married and having having children.
This is of course not not my claim. A couple
of very interesting queer queer scholars have have argued it
before me. And that's a fascinating topic, right to think about,
you know, about the possibility of being single about a
(48:24):
certain age, you know, at different um sexual orientations. Well,
Dr Laha, do you've you've basically answered all of my questions,
all of my very many questions for you. And so
I'm wondering, is there anything about single hood or single stigma,
or or single women in general that you feel like
we didn't touch on that you think our listeners would
(48:46):
be interested in. Um, there is one thing, and this
is something now that I've been thinking a lot about,
is how to politicize singlehood in terms of how to
talk about single hood which is not only related, you know,
in which does not only relate with the need to
(49:06):
combat stereotypes and and and you know, and and debunking
this equation you know of single hood being unmarried, etcetera, etcetera.
And I think that one of the one of the
things we need to do is to start thinking of
singlehood as another way of living, not as a different
(49:29):
way of living, as another way of living. And talk
more about how UM, single persons are discriminated in terms
of their taxes, that they pay much more taxes in
terms of that in most societies, UM, the accommodation and
living arrangements are not suited for a single person's UM.
(49:52):
You know, talk about you know, as every you know
claim make you know, public clear aims, and talk about
rights and UM, not be in in this position in
which you have to apologize or justify your singlehood. Let's say, listen,
(50:13):
I'm single, I'm a single person, and I'm discriminated economically,
and let's do something about it. And it's pretty interesting
that there is hardly any you know, UM when you
look you know at politics, and you look at you know,
at political manifestos and um, you know, the politicians agenda.
(50:39):
You know, everyone speaks in the name of the family,
but no one thinks that, you know, single hood is
something that should be you know, represented and um fought for.
And I think that's the next step. Yeah, absolutely, And
I mean that's that's a whole other topic in terms
(51:00):
of politics and economics that we did not even get into.
But that is very important. I think it's really really important.
And and and as I mentioned before, the Paolo wrote
writes about it, and Rachel Muen, who is a legal scholar,
(51:20):
wrote many years ago and wonderful article which the title
of this article is why has said Why has Second
way feminism forgot the single woman? And unfortunately I can
say that about third wave feminism and even fourth wave
feminism and feminism today. You know, it is not on
(51:40):
the agenda of feminist organizations or a feminist theory or
you know, queer queer movements or human rights movement. It's
is it is not existent not it is not existent
as an option cognitively and even you know, politically in
(52:02):
the public sphere. And I think that you know, this transition,
this cognitive transition in our perceptions of what is single
hood can also and should also occur in terms of
new kinds of thinking about single hood in political terms. Absolutely. Well,
(52:23):
thank you so much for talking to me today. And
could you please tell our listeners where they can find
out more both about you and about your research, and
if you have any other further reading suggestions for them. Oh,
that's a wonderful question about further reading for them. Well.
The first of all is Bella di Paolos. I've mentioned
(52:47):
her before. She has um some wonderful She has her
own blog. If you just google her you can find
a lot of information about single hood and c and H.
There are some wonderful books who have been published um
on this matter. Reynolds who wrote about the discursive um
(53:11):
or I forgot now the name, but Joe Reynolds who
wrote about a single hood, and Elaine trim Burger who
has written about the single woman as well. And um
Anita Taylor who has published her book on singlehood about
two years ago, which is also very enriching. My own
(53:33):
articles can be found on wonderful website which is called academia.
You can just um look me up academia dot com
and there you know, I have a couple of my
articles online. And hopefully in a year UM the book
(53:54):
will be published and I'll be happier and some of
my thoughts are expressed there as well. Well, wonderful. I
can't wait to pick up your book, even if we
do have to wait for a year. Yeah, is part
of our living. Yeah, bringing it all back to waiting
in time. That's right. Yeah, Well, thank you so much again,
(54:16):
it was such a pleasure talking to you. Likewise, so
thank you so much to Dr Lahad for speaking with
us and offering some reading recommendations. And if you want
to read more of Dr Lahad's work, she has a
profile over at Academia dot e D you and just
(54:40):
search for her name, which is k i in in
e r e t l a h A d kinner
it Lahad. Well, and now we want to hear from you.
We've already gotten some great letters about our Single by
Choice episode, but we want to hear what your thoughts
are about sort of your life as a single person
(55:02):
or if you have single friends. Have you experienced any
level of sort of social panic about your own relationship status.
Let us know, mom Stuff at house Stuffworks dot com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
(55:26):
So conveniently, we have a couple of letters here about
our previous episode on the single Bye Choice movement. This
one's from Vette. She says, I've seen Kristen's videos for
a while, and only this past week I found your podcast.
Welcome Evette, She says, love all the topics you cover.
Your most recent one on being single is pretty on point. Yes,
(55:46):
I told myself at thirteen years old that I would
be okay with never getting married. I confess this in
seventh grade sex ed class. My Catholic school called it
family life, and boys and girls were split into two
separate classrooms and teacher, to which my teacher responded, oh,
you'll find Mr Wright one day. You never know. And
I remember even my friends were like, you don't want
(56:08):
to get married. Some even suggested to me to become
a nun. I was a bit more Catholic at the time.
It's pretty sad to see thirteen year old girls being
weirded out by the fact that at that age I
didn't want to get married. Of course, later on in
life this question would come up every so often. It
gets worse when my Mexican family gets involved. Although lately,
(56:28):
they've been more easy on me with being okay with
that choice. I've had one serious relationship, and after we
broke up, I forgot what it was like to be single.
I've been single for the past five years, and I
enjoy it a lot. I don't need to break the
bank on dates, and I used that money to good use,
mostly for paying off student loans and traveling. Plus I
like spending time with friends more when I can. If
(56:49):
I did find that someone, I would be okay with
cohabitating with them until things didn't work out. Kids are
out of the question for me for now. I'm twenty four,
and it does get weird when I see all these
people I went to school with engaged and married and
having babies, and I'm just here like, well, good for them,
I guess, but aren't we still too young? So yeah,
single life for the wind. Thank you, Vette. And I've
(57:12):
got a letter here from Louise, and she writes, I
just finished listening to the Single by Choice episode and
have to say that it resonated with me. I was
divorced and have been single by choice ever since. I've
been the recipient of many of the comments and attitudes
discussed on the podcast. In the decade after my divorce,
I was frequently told by men in particular that I
(57:33):
was being too picky by not finding a second husband.
My gut reaction was always huh. I always felt as
if I was being criticized by men who are neither
good looking nor interesting as individuals. I don't have a
Monel type body, but I am and always have been
very active, running, biking, backpacking, kayaking. It was as if
(57:54):
I couldn't live a full and happy life without a
man in it. I had the opposite interaction with women,
and it's something that you didn't discuss in the podcast.
My female friends often said they were jealous of me
because I could do what I want when I want.
They also felt that not having to discuss or compromise
on household issues was a positive thing, especially when it
came to decisions about raising my two children. While they
(58:16):
didn't envy my single parenthood, these comments were always honest,
never meant to be snied or hurtful. I enjoy being
single and living alone. When my family comes to visit
or we go on family vacations, I find that I'm
always ready by vacations and to be back in my
apartment and have some alone time. I never regretted my
single life. I'm fifty four years old and wouldn't trade
it for anything. People may say that it's because I
(58:38):
came from quote a broken home or had a quote
bad marriage, but aren't we all products of our environments
and gene expressions. I did not choose single life because
of negative experiences. I chose a single life because it
deep down inside it makes me happy, content and fulfilled.
So thanks for your perspective, Luise, and keep your single
(58:59):
by choice effectives coming. Friends. Mom Stuff at how stuff
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with
links to Dr Lahad's work. So you can read up
on more single by choice research. Head on over to
stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on
(59:24):
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
works dot com
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