September 11, 2013 • 36 mins
Recent research has found that open relationships may be healthier than monogamous ones. Cristen and Caroline investigate the dynamics, risks and rewards of open relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff mom never told you, from house to
books not com Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Caroline and I'm Kristen Christen. Today's podcast topic, as you know,
because hello, I've talked to you about it, comes courtesy
of a friend of mine who you know, he listens
(00:23):
to the podcast a lot. He actually gets ideas for
his own personal blog, which he refuses to share with
me by listening to the podcast and kind of either
rebutting or whatever. But anyway, we got to talking about
open relationships, open marriages, and my friend has been with
his wife for many, many years. They they've known each
other since they were very young, and they've been married
(00:45):
for for years and years. And I'm not sure of
the specifics whether this is a situation that evolved or
whether it's something that they specifically talked about, but he
and his wife have a pretty open marriage, and you
know that involves they both have friends of the opposite
sex who they might take trips with, they hang out with.
So he was very excited for us to cover this topic.
(01:07):
So you would say that your friend and his wife
are consensually non monogamous, I would say that that's the
more clinical term for an open relationship. And we did
a podcast on polyamory and you can even find the
article how polyamory works on how staff works dot com.
And there is a difference between open relationships and polyamory.
(01:33):
There was a blog post about this over at Open
Love New York blog, which is authored by a polyamorous couple,
and one wrote, one way of looking at it is
that polly can describe the mindset and open relationship can
describe the factual arrangement like lovers and married. So basically,
while all Polly relationships would be considered open, all open
(01:57):
relationships would not necessarily be polyamorous because polyamory focuses more
not just on sex, but actually having relationships outside of
the one on one coupling. So open relationships might involve
just swinging or just sex when you are out of town,
(02:17):
or whatever kind of consensual, non monogamous arrangement you agree
to write. But one thing it is not is cheating
exactly because and we'll get into this and we'll probably
beat it into your heads over and over again. But
the major difference with open relationships versus cheating, uh, an
obvious one is that it is consensual, Like we said,
(02:39):
and you talk it to death. Communication is a major
factor in open relationships. And if you are a follower
of Dan Savage, if you listen to his podcast Arida's Calm,
you know that he talks about these a lot, but
he calls it something else. He calls it monogamish. And
there was a huge article all actually about this idea
(03:02):
of monogamish in the New York Times magazine a couple
of years ago, and Dan Savage said, I acknowledge the
advantages of monogamy when it comes to sexual safety, infections,
emotional safety, paternity assurances, but people in monogamous relationships have
to be willing to meet me a quarter of the
way and acknowledge the drawbacks of monogamy around boredom, despair,
(03:26):
lack of variety, sexual death, and being taken for granted.
I mean, I thought it was bad at despair, but
when he got to sexual death, that just really sounds
grim And and Savage kind of looks at being monogamish
or having an open relationship not as something that indicates
(03:46):
that you love your partner, less that you are not
turned on by or in love with this person at
all anymore. It's more of a way to kind of
I don't know, what would you say, like satisfy desires
and urges and keep thing exciting while growing even closer
to your partner. Absolutely, I think it's a form of
relationship preservation, at least the way that he approaches it,
(04:10):
and a lot of people who are in open relationships
would probably agree. And speaking of which, the statistics around
how many American adults at least are in open relationships
slash open marriages is a little bit sketchy since a
lot of open couples are closeted due to the negative
(04:30):
stereotypes around them. But according to some research that has
come out of the University of Michigan's Connolly Lab estimates
that around five percent of Americans are in consensually non
monogamous relationships. Right and Darren Langridge, who's a clinical therapist,
told The Guardian that non monogamous relationships are actually surprisingly
(04:51):
common and the numbers are increasing. I mean, in one
article we read, they were talking about how a lot
of that probably has to do with the Internet. Honestly, like,
I mean not, I'm not saying that the Internet is
like fueling a fetish or something. It's just the fact
that the Internet allows people who live their lives in
certain ways and maybe that are in a minority of
the population finally can connect with each other and realize, Okay,
(05:15):
I'm I'm normal, and other people do this and I
can connect with them. Yeah, that was a huge thing
that came up in our discussion on polyamory, where it
was allowing people to actually form communities, like minded communities. UM.
And speaking of communities, the Connolly Lab did find that
it is slightly more common among LGBT couples, and it's
(05:38):
probably gay men in that group who are skewing those
numbers a bit, because repeatedly studies do find the game
mail couples are a lot more likely to be open UM.
For instance, there's a two ten study which found that
of Bay Area gay men had extra relationship sex with
(05:58):
this is important their partner's knowledge and approval. And when
I went and looked for academic research on open relationships,
an overwhelming majority we're all focused on gay mail populations. Yeah. Well,
an article I read the Advocate was interesting. It was
talking about open relationships among gay and straight couples and
(06:21):
how kind of kind of saying that, UM, the openness
of a lot of gay relationships is influencing a lot
of straight relationships and how those die ads work and
how people people's attitudes are changing about open relationships and things.
But they do point out this is kind of a sidebar.
They do point out that with the fight for marriage equality,
(06:42):
there's a lot of pressure on a lot of gay
couples to shut up about their open relationships and kind
of in order to reach that equality, conform to this
ideal of you know, of what marriage is supposed to be,
which is between just two people. But you know, as
we'll get into, that don't work for everybody. That don't
work for everybody, and it is unfortunate because that only
(07:05):
perpetuates negative and often off base, as we'll learn in
a little bit stereotypes about how open relationships often work.
But you know what, a lot of people in especially
in heterosexual arrangements, are doing, Caroline, They're having sex outside
of marriage, and not necessarily in a consensually non monogamous
(07:29):
kind of way. There's a lot of cheating going on. Yeah.
Two thousand one Journal of Family Psychology study found that
infidelity occurs in a reliable minority of American marriages that's
between twenty of all Americans who are having sex with
someone other than their spouse, and it's non consensual and
it's not communicated about. It is something that is done
(07:53):
without their knowledge. Yeah, and for men versus women breakdown.
A two thousand ten University of Chicago research center found
it fourteen percent of ever married women and of ever
married men said that they've had affairs. Well, and I
think what a lot of people are saying, especially Dan Savage,
(08:15):
are like, as far as affairs versus open marriage, wouldn't
it just be better for people instead of going out
and having affairs, they could potentially come back and really
crush your partner, ruin your relationship. Wouldn't it be better
to just have that discussion one way or another of saying, hey,
do you want to do this? Is is is something that
we can do and survive and then set those ground rules. Yeah,
(08:36):
because it's not like historically people especially men not to
harp on men, but especially men having sex outside of
marriages is nothing new whatsoever. And the author of a
History of Marriage puts it thus late She says, the
problem in America is that the so called open marriage
(08:58):
has usually been somewhat one sided. To be a real
open marriage. It has to be, like we've said, a
mutual decision. But for most of history, men had open
marriages and women didn't. Men had affairs and women had
to put up with it. Yeah, we can go back
to say, the eighteenth century when men talked openly of
their mistresses and prostitutes in letters, and it's not so
(09:23):
great still for the women. I think you found some
some research on this as well, about kind of the
maintenance of those extramarital relationships. Well. Darcie Eaton, who, along
with Janet W. Hardy, is an author of The Ethical Sleut,
A Practical Guide to polyamory, open Relationships and other Adventures,
(09:44):
wrote that it used to be considered that if you
had a mistress, it was almost your ethical job to
make sure your partner didn't find out, because anything else
would be totally disrespectful of your partner. And this led
to what was essentially tacit permission for men to have
affairs as long as they were discreet. And so you know,
the thinking goes like, well, okay, so it's respectful to
(10:04):
have an affair as long as you're quiet about it.
And but you know, nowadays with the freak I don't
mean to sound like an old like grandmother sitting on
my porch and my rocking chair, shaking my fist. But
like with the internet these days, like how how discreet
can we actually be? Right? Well, I will say that
open marriage did have quite a moment in not so
(10:28):
surprisingly the seventies, because in nineteen seventy two George and
Nanna O'Neill published a book called Open Marriage, and it
spent more than forty weeks on the New York Times
bestseller list, and open Marriage came out of the cultural closet,
and this book also was ultimately translated into fourteen languages.
(10:48):
It was kind of a revolutionary text that was published.
And so there was this moment when, okay, maybe this
is something that we could try out because we're coming
out of the more mad minished era when you think
of Don Draper having all of these affairs, and open
marriage was more of, uh, this proclamation that it doesn't
(11:12):
have to be that way, right, we can actually do
this whole concentral nonmonogamy in a way that's that's good
for both Don and Betty. You know, well, if you
think about it, I mean this it's not like this
stuff was never going on before this book, you know,
I be I feel like this book was to open
marriage then what the internet is now for us, Like
(11:35):
it brought it to people's attention that other people are
doing it, that it wasn't necessarily something to be quite
so ashamed of or kept so secret. You know that
this is in fact something that goes on in other
cultures and with other couples. Yeah. But still, and maybe
it was because of the more conservative wave that came
(11:55):
through in the nineteen eighties, the moment for open marriage
went by the wayside, and now decades later, a lot
of people who are in open relationships, which is still
a slim minority. It's not it's not a common thing
at all, but a lot of them remain closeted because
(12:16):
of this laundry list of negative stereotypes that we have
about people who openly have sex outside of marriage, which
I find so ironic because it's almost like we punish
them more than we would punish cheaters. Yeah, because they're, well,
they're daring to go against social norms. I mean, there
(12:38):
are people who would argue that, you know, you're not
respecting the institution of marriage. But on the other hand,
why is it any of your freaking business what other
people do well? And I feel like today when not
to just pull out the same things that people say
over and over again, but yet again, if you look
at divorce rates and all of those different statistics, it's like,
(12:58):
who is respecting the sanctity of marriage? Right? And if
you are doing something in agreement with your partner in
order to strengthen your relationship and remain married, especially if
you have children of that marriage, I mean, is that
not good? I mean that's I mean that that is
one thing that Dan Savage argues of. If you can
(13:19):
do something to strengthen your marriage and make you happier
as a couple and so you stay together, right, is
that not? Yeah? And that's I mean that's not to
say that, Hey, if you're having relationships problems, go to
a swingers club right now. But let's at least take
a moment and see whether or not those negative stereotypes
are actually true. Right. So there was one University of
(13:42):
Michigan survey that asked they gave two hypothetical couples. One
was non monogamous and one was monogamous, and they had
all these things that you could rate them on and
before we get into like the major stereotypes about non
monogamous couples, I would just like to take them to
point out that in the results of that University of
Michigan study, people judged the non monogamous couples as less
(14:07):
likely to floss on a daily basis and more likely
to pay their taxes late. We just think they're terrible people.
We think they are horrible people. We also think that
they are sexually risky because of course they're just going
out leaving the kids with god knows who and and
having sex with with strangers. But in fact, a study
(14:31):
I think this was the University of Michigan study, found
that people in open relationships were actually much more likely
to engage in sexual risk prevention than people who were cheating,
including doing things like using condoms, using glows for genital touching,
discussing sexually transmitted diseases and sexual history, and sterilizing sex toys. Yeah,
(14:56):
and they pointed out that cheaters were much more likely
to be drunk or on drugs during their outside encounters
because of that whole life. Oh no, I'm just doing
this by the seat of my pants, So you know,
it's like they're they're under the influence of things, which
we've talked about before, and you know relation to other issues.
When you are under the influence of substances, you are
(15:16):
less likely to be safe in your sexual encounters. And
just to reinforce this point, there was a two thousand
in ten study which found that of game in and
open relationships took specific steps to ensure sexual health. Because
I mean, it makes total sense that that's the case,
because a lot of times, in the best case scenario
(15:38):
for open relationships, you were entering into this agreement with
a lot of conversation. You're getting into some radical communication territory,
and so of course you're going to be maybe more
willing and open to talk about safety as well. Yeah,
another myth is that open relationships are are less emotionally
(16:01):
satisfying then closed relationships. And sure, there are certainly issues
of jealousy that will come up in open relationships. If
you read it, pretty much any article on that, people
will acknowledge like, hey, yeah, of course we've had a
deal with those kinds of issues. Um, But again, because
there's been so much academic focus on game mail couples,
(16:24):
that's why they keep coming up. There was a twenty
tent study which found that game mail relationships are the
only couple type that report equal satisfaction whether or not
their relationships are sexually open or closed. But what made
the difference for those couples and their happiness had nothing
(16:44):
to do with monogamy. It hinged on open communication and
established relationship rules. Yeah, there was one gosh was it
the Advocate article. I'm sorry I can't remember, but there
was one article that talked to one gay couple who
one of the partners, Gary, I think his name was Gary.
Gary raised the idea of having an open relationship. His
(17:08):
partner did not like the idea, was against it. He's like,
do you not love me? Do not find me attractive anymore?
But then they slowly, like just communicated about it more
and more, and we're like, okay, well we're gonna start
here where it's both of us and this other person. Okay, well,
then we're going to broaden it up to like we
can both do things, but we have to tell each other.
And then it kind of like grew from there. They communicated,
(17:30):
they set those rules that both of them were comfortable with.
That was the thing. So that Gary's partner did not
feel like he was being dragged, kicking and screaming into
a scenario he didn't want to be in. It was
more like, okay, well, let's talk about it, get comfortable
with the idea, and and do what we are happy with.
And Gary wasn't stuck wondering should I cheat? Right? Should
(17:51):
I not? Right? Um? And speaking of which, there's this
idea that open relationships are just doomed because of course
you're not you know, you're having sex with other people,
or not having sex but entertaining other people. Um. Again,
Gary and his partner probably, according to research, probably have
longer partnerships than people in sexually exclusive relationships. Yeah. And
(18:15):
people do assume that those in open relationships are completely
just emotional robots. Yeah, they just want sex. Right. But
a study of gay men and open relationships found that
that avoidant attachment was not a factor. Yeah. And the
researchers were surprised by that because their hypothesis was that
men who would be all about open relationships would be
(18:40):
less into the idea of really close emotional bonds. And
they found that oh wait, no, there's actually both. They
actually are emotionally healthy and sexually satisfied. Huh. Okay, Well, now,
speaking of emotions, what about jealousy. Jealousy has got to
be the deal breaker, right, Caroline, You would think it
(19:00):
would be. I mean, it's a natural emotion, everybody feels it.
But studies on polyamorous couples have found that not only
is jealousy not a major problem thanks to all of
that communication that we mentioned, but there's also really no
real gender difference in the amount of jealousy experienced. Yeah.
There's even a term called compersion that Polly people might
be familiar with, because it's a term which is the
(19:24):
happiness that you feel for your partner when he or
she finds someone else that they're interested in. In the
same way, Caroline, that I would be really happy for
you if you got an amazing new car or something.
You know, there's something really great happened to you, I would,
I would feel joy on your behalf. And can you imagine,
(19:46):
I mean, to me, the idea of compulsion of me
getting psyched about my boyfriend finding another girlfriend for you, honey, Yeah,
that's foreign to me. I don't understand, but it exists. Yeah,
I I also have a hard time imagining that. Uh,
But if it is the type of relationship you have,
and you're open and honest, and you honestly both of
(20:09):
you want this for the other person and for yourselves,
then yeah, I could see being excited. You're a go getter.
You went and got that goal. That's right, you achieved
that goal of finding someone else to date. Hooray. But
there is, though, this question of whether or not open
relationships are more slanted towards the desires of men. I mean, again,
(20:34):
we've talked about how a lot of this research in
a rarity actually for research is focused on gay men
because our idea is that, well, men want more sex,
women want more bonding, more relationship, So our open relationships
(20:55):
just women saying, well, I don't want to lose you,
so let's go to that swingers club or or whatever
the arrangement might be. Well. I thought that Dan Savage
had a really interesting take, and by interesting, I mean
it's it's a little harsh, but he had an interesting
take on the topic. He said that the mistake that
(21:16):
straight people made was imposing the monogamous expectation on men.
He said men were never expected to be monogamous. Men
had concubines, mistresses, and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided
that marriage had to be egalitarian and phairsy Uh in
the feminist revolution, rather than extending to women the same
latitude and license and pressure release valve that men had
(21:39):
always enjoyed, we extended to men the confines women had
always endured. And it's been a disaster for marriage. What
do you think about that? That's pretty intense. That is
pretty intense, and I don't agree with all of it.
I don't like putting men and women in such tightly
(21:59):
confined in boxes because I know plenty of men who
don't want sex outside of their relationships, who are extremely monogamous,
textbook monogamous, and I know plenty of women who would
not at an eyelash at being able to have sex
(22:21):
with more than one guy. More Meryl um So and
Dan Savage does get a lot of flak from women
because he sometimes tends to uh downplay how much we
do enjoy sex and how fluid our desire can be
(22:44):
as well. Um So, I think it's extreme what he's saying.
Um And feminist bloggers Steady Doyle also isn't quite on
board with that. Yeah, she says that putting all the
us on the person who doesn't have that fetish or desire.
Particularly if the person who doesn't have that desires the woman,
(23:06):
really reproduces a lot of old structures and means of
oppression for women. Although I was surprised there was a
whole room for debate section in the New York Times
about open marriage when a few years ago Newt Gingrich
is politician Newt Gingrich who hails from Georgia and has
a weak handshake. Oh really small, ted, but huh okay, Well,
(23:29):
his ex wife came out and said that he wanted
an open marriage, and as we all know, he is
now married to his long time mistress. And so everybody
all of a sudden was talking about open marriage because
you know, we have someone like Dan Savage, who of
course is all about monogamous but for a very conservative
Republican politician to be rumored to have wanted an open marriage,
(23:53):
which seems like such a crazy idea, then you know
everybody's got to talk. Well, and you know, he was
so slam for it, uh and he you know, he
was like, oh, that's filth. I can't believe you're reporting
on that. Those are such terrible lies, terrible terrible lies.
And it's like, well, I don't know. I mean the
fact that he asked his wife. Okay, granted she didn't
(24:14):
want it, that's fine, she doesn't. She doesn't have to
participate in this. She doesn't have to be okay with
that at all. But the fact that he asked his
wife tells me like, Okay, well, you know, it's not
like he's without all right, I'm saying this is not
really a new Genger supporter, But it's not like he's
without a moral compass, you know. It's like maybe he
just found in his now wife, Maybe he just found
(24:37):
someone who is more on board with the idea of
not consensual non monogamy. Or the scenario in my mind
is and this is taking him away from the situation. Um,
I could see an open relationship being proposed because someone
started cheating, got found out right, and doesn't want to
(24:59):
stop and say, well, give me the permission to do this,
let's make it open, which is absolutely the wrong way
to go about that. And that's not open now because
exactly because getting caught and just asking for permission when
the other person really just wants you and only you,
I think, is setting yourself up for a downfall big time.
(25:22):
Big time, and so that resonates a lot with what
Doyle is saying in terms of, you know, it shouldn't
be something that women should just be should just have
to go along with so that they can be down,
so that they can be good wives, good girl friends.
I think how good in quotes it is for women,
whether they're in a relationship with a man or a woman.
(25:44):
Um really depends on how the approach to opening up
a relationship happens. Is it coming from a good place
or not. Yeah, I mean there was a gross I
have a gross example, like I actually had to put
my laptop down. I was like, this girl is just
on another planet. Uh Cosmo, of all magazines, you know,
(26:05):
it's my favorite. I had a column where the guy
was there, I don't know the columnists was interviewing a
woman who was in an open relationship with her boyfriend.
But he's like, why did you do this? Like what
what made you decide to do this? Her answer made
me so sad. It was like, well, you know, my
boyfriend is a bartender, and so I just really can't
expect him to be monogamous and I don't want to
(26:27):
put that demand on him, and so I have you know,
come to accept that this is the best way to
keep him. Come on that that to me is not
the true definition of an open relationship either, because she
felt kind of coerced into it, manipulated into it, like
the whole excuse of like, well, men are gonna sew
(26:48):
their wild oats, you know, all that stereotype crap, you know, like, Okay, well,
you know what, maybe he's just not a good boyfriend. Right,
and again, I'll go back to the fact that there
are plenty of dudes out there who want monogamy and
they're fine with monogamy, and she could probably find one
of those men. I mean, monogamy is uh, scientifically, biologically,
(27:14):
anthropologically speaking, a ridiculous standard that we have because we
stay married for so long, because we're expected to only
have sex with one person for forty or fifty years.
That's crazy talk. Um no, I'm not saying morally. Someone's
probably like, oh my god, what is Kristen saying? Your
mother is going to write a the letter. Yeah, I mean,
(27:35):
if you talk to any scientists, um, it is it's
it's such an anomaly in nature that we do this,
and they are perfectly good reasons, Like Dan Savage said,
for monogamy being this gold standard in society for things
like sexual safety, paternity assurance, emotional safety, it provides a
(27:57):
reliable structure for us. Yes, Um. And by the same token, though,
opening up a relationship or just saying just have sex
just to stay with me, it being a lastitch effort
to cater to someone else's needs, that that just breeds resentment.
That's just opening up a panderous box of resentment. Well,
(28:21):
and the thing is, I think a lot of people
react really strongly when a conversation about open relationships happens,
because it's almost like we hear about it and we
assume that Dan Savage or George and Nana O'Neill, who
wrote Open Marriage in nineteen seventy two, are saying, Hey, everybody,
(28:41):
open it up, let's have a free for all. Yeah,
I mean, that's that's definitely not what they're saying. I
think they were maybe more trying to reach towards equality
and happiness and an egalitarian relationship and marriage. Yeah, I mean,
for um, Nana O'Neill, for instance, she's in nineteen she
(29:02):
said quote, I don't think we ever saw it as
a concept for the majority, and certainly it hasn't proven
to be. And I was skimming through open marriage and
it's a lot more about evening out the dynamics in
a relationship, because you think about it, this was published
in nineteen seventy two. Essentially, what they were outlining was
(29:23):
a couple that wasn't the leave it to beaver woman
at home cooking dinner and having Scotch ready for the
man when he comes home from earning the money, um,
rather than it just being a swingers manifesto, right, And
you know what, I I do think that even if
you do not want an open relationship, it's not for
(29:45):
you and your partner. I think we have a lot
to learn from people who are in open relationships, because
if you are in a consensually non monogamous relationship and
it is successful, holy crap, are you doing a lot
of communication. And I think the amount of communication, mutual support,
and just that openness and vulnerability, you know, you're exposing
(30:05):
yourself to something a little scary and and not normal
by a lot of our standards, that really lays a
very strong foundation for your relationship. And I think if
more of us were able to communicate with our partners
more openly like that we would all probably have better relationships,
and I think that requires a solid foundation of trust. Yeah,
(30:27):
I think that it would be hard to UM. And
I really want to hear from listeners on this because
I'm I'm sure that there are people listening who are
in these scenarios or have been. UM, I think it
would be so hard to start off a relationship open.
Oh yeah, I feel like there are those components. The communication,
the trust, the mutual respect, all of those things takes
(30:49):
time to build, and I think it would be really
hard to establish that foundation when other people are in
the mix. Well it's kind of like, well, what point
do you have to stay together? Right if you don't
have some kind of foundation, Um, just between you two,
what's the point of staying together if you find some
hot other thing to sleep with? You know, like there's yeah,
(31:12):
I don't know, but that's just me. And one thing
we haven't even touched on and don't even have time
to is what about the kids? That came up a
lot in the episode on polyamory of how couples and
UM groups will also have kids and you know kind
of how they work all those things out. UM, But
I'm sure that Hey, well, the kids of the Wonder
(31:35):
Woman creator and his wife Marston and their mistress. Those kids,
you know, I don't know. I don't know how they're doing.
I don't know if they're happy or not. But I
mean there were four children in that polyamorous relationship. Yeah,
and they and they lived to tell the tale, right, Um,
So what do you think should we toss it to listeners? Totally?
I want to hear. I want to hear from people. Yeah,
(31:57):
I think. Just to clarify, neither not a Caroline nor I, well,
I don't know speak for you, Caroline. I am not
in an open relationship, but oh my gosh, I haven't
even been with my partner long enough to even like
have any time or focus that I could even like
spare away from our relationship. That's my thing. Like, I mean,
(32:18):
I have never been in an open relationship and I've
never really had the strong desire to be. But you know, so,
um yeah, if that's your thing, that's cool with me.
I'm fine with that. But yeah, I I barely have
time to see my boyfriend, so I don't know how
I would see someone else. But I can imagine though,
from the perspective of your friend who kicked off this
(32:40):
whole conversation we're having, who has known his wife for
years and years and years and years. How it might
be a very different scenario, right, So let us know
what you think. Mom staff a Discovery dot Com is
where you can send your letters. We want to hear
(33:01):
from you. Pros, cons, thumbs up, thumbs downs, open relationship thoughts.
Send them our way and you can also hit us
up on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast.
And now back to our letters. Well, we got a
couple letters here in response to our episode on women's cycling,
and the first one is from Gali, who was the
(33:24):
listener who suggests that we do the podcast, and I
just wanted to share with you that she says, I
avidly read the six Bicycling for Ladies books that was
linked on the Stuff I'm Never Told You tumbler and
learned that apparently bullion was considered a stimulant like tea
(33:44):
and coffee. Brilliant stuff. Oh and there was also a
good bit about always having a small reserve of chocolate
or beef tablet for snacking mid ride. Beef tablets. I
can only imagine the looks my fellow cyclists would give
me of were to take out a beef tablet. Many
already consider it weird that I prefer plain old dried
(34:05):
figs as mid ride snacks instead of bars or gels.
It's funny health times change. That book also showed that shamnois,
which is a type of towel, we're not really things
one discussed back then. Today those things are generally not
discussed either, to my utter dismay, because it takes quite
a few trials and airs to figure out on their
own that not all shamois is the same, and that
(34:27):
not everyone's private parts respond the same way to different
materials and cut especially during a five or six hour ride.
As someone set on sum ride, cycling is good for
your whole body, except your outer vagina. But I guess
that's t m my stuff and wouldn't have been of
interest in eighteen nineties six. Thank you, Gali. Okay, I
(34:48):
have an email from Tristan who says I just listened
to the episode about women cycling in which you mentioned
regulations on women. It grew out of concern for reproductive help.
I found this funny because spending a lot of time
cycling can actually cause a rectile dysfunction in men. The
way body weight is supported on the bike seat places
a lot of pressure on nerves connected to the genitals,
(35:08):
as well as the circulatory system to and from the penis.
From my understanding, you were only at risk if you
spend hours a day on a bike, and most of
the problems will correct themselves if you stop cycling for
a while. I thought you might find the misplaced concern interesting.
So thanks Christmas oh Man who knew cycling was so
hard on the genitals. The hard day's work prayer jumps right,
(35:33):
So thanks to everyone who has written in about cycling
and genitals and all sorts of things. Mom Stuff Discovery
dot com is where you can send your letters. You
can also tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, like us
on Facebook, and follow us on tumbler. Stuff Mom Never
Told You dot tumbler dot com, and if you want
to watch us, you know what to do. Go over
(35:53):
to YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You,
where we have seven d videos maybe more and that
now and click the subscribe button for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works
dot com
Welcome to stuff mom never told you, from house to
books not com Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Caroline and I'm Kristen Christen. Today's podcast topic, as you know,
because hello, I've talked to you about it, comes courtesy
of a friend of mine who you know, he listens
(00:23):
to the podcast a lot. He actually gets ideas for
his own personal blog, which he refuses to share with
me by listening to the podcast and kind of either
rebutting or whatever. But anyway, we got to talking about
open relationships, open marriages, and my friend has been with
his wife for many, many years. They they've known each
other since they were very young, and they've been married
(00:45):
for for years and years. And I'm not sure of
the specifics whether this is a situation that evolved or
whether it's something that they specifically talked about, but he
and his wife have a pretty open marriage, and you
know that involves they both have friends of the opposite
sex who they might take trips with, they hang out with.
So he was very excited for us to cover this topic.
(01:07):
So you would say that your friend and his wife
are consensually non monogamous, I would say that that's the
more clinical term for an open relationship. And we did
a podcast on polyamory and you can even find the
article how polyamory works on how staff works dot com.
And there is a difference between open relationships and polyamory.
(01:33):
There was a blog post about this over at Open
Love New York blog, which is authored by a polyamorous couple,
and one wrote, one way of looking at it is
that polly can describe the mindset and open relationship can
describe the factual arrangement like lovers and married. So basically,
while all Polly relationships would be considered open, all open
(01:57):
relationships would not necessarily be polyamorous because polyamory focuses more
not just on sex, but actually having relationships outside of
the one on one coupling. So open relationships might involve
just swinging or just sex when you are out of town,
(02:17):
or whatever kind of consensual, non monogamous arrangement you agree
to write. But one thing it is not is cheating
exactly because and we'll get into this and we'll probably
beat it into your heads over and over again. But
the major difference with open relationships versus cheating, uh, an
obvious one is that it is consensual, Like we said,
(02:39):
and you talk it to death. Communication is a major
factor in open relationships. And if you are a follower
of Dan Savage, if you listen to his podcast Arida's Calm,
you know that he talks about these a lot, but
he calls it something else. He calls it monogamish. And
there was a huge article all actually about this idea
(03:02):
of monogamish in the New York Times magazine a couple
of years ago, and Dan Savage said, I acknowledge the
advantages of monogamy when it comes to sexual safety, infections,
emotional safety, paternity assurances, but people in monogamous relationships have
to be willing to meet me a quarter of the
way and acknowledge the drawbacks of monogamy around boredom, despair,
(03:26):
lack of variety, sexual death, and being taken for granted.
I mean, I thought it was bad at despair, but
when he got to sexual death, that just really sounds
grim And and Savage kind of looks at being monogamish
or having an open relationship not as something that indicates
(03:46):
that you love your partner, less that you are not
turned on by or in love with this person at
all anymore. It's more of a way to kind of
I don't know, what would you say, like satisfy desires
and urges and keep thing exciting while growing even closer
to your partner. Absolutely, I think it's a form of
relationship preservation, at least the way that he approaches it,
(04:10):
and a lot of people who are in open relationships
would probably agree. And speaking of which, the statistics around
how many American adults at least are in open relationships
slash open marriages is a little bit sketchy since a
lot of open couples are closeted due to the negative
(04:30):
stereotypes around them. But according to some research that has
come out of the University of Michigan's Connolly Lab estimates
that around five percent of Americans are in consensually non
monogamous relationships. Right and Darren Langridge, who's a clinical therapist,
told The Guardian that non monogamous relationships are actually surprisingly
(04:51):
common and the numbers are increasing. I mean, in one
article we read, they were talking about how a lot
of that probably has to do with the Internet. Honestly, like,
I mean not, I'm not saying that the Internet is
like fueling a fetish or something. It's just the fact
that the Internet allows people who live their lives in
certain ways and maybe that are in a minority of
the population finally can connect with each other and realize, Okay,
(05:15):
I'm I'm normal, and other people do this and I
can connect with them. Yeah, that was a huge thing
that came up in our discussion on polyamory, where it
was allowing people to actually form communities, like minded communities. UM.
And speaking of communities, the Connolly Lab did find that
it is slightly more common among LGBT couples, and it's
(05:38):
probably gay men in that group who are skewing those
numbers a bit, because repeatedly studies do find the game
mail couples are a lot more likely to be open UM.
For instance, there's a two ten study which found that
of Bay Area gay men had extra relationship sex with
(05:58):
this is important their partner's knowledge and approval. And when
I went and looked for academic research on open relationships,
an overwhelming majority we're all focused on gay mail populations. Yeah. Well,
an article I read the Advocate was interesting. It was
talking about open relationships among gay and straight couples and
(06:21):
how kind of kind of saying that, UM, the openness
of a lot of gay relationships is influencing a lot
of straight relationships and how those die ads work and
how people people's attitudes are changing about open relationships and things.
But they do point out this is kind of a sidebar.
They do point out that with the fight for marriage equality,
(06:42):
there's a lot of pressure on a lot of gay
couples to shut up about their open relationships and kind
of in order to reach that equality, conform to this
ideal of you know, of what marriage is supposed to be,
which is between just two people. But you know, as
we'll get into, that don't work for everybody. That don't
work for everybody, and it is unfortunate because that only
(07:05):
perpetuates negative and often off base, as we'll learn in
a little bit stereotypes about how open relationships often work.
But you know what, a lot of people in especially
in heterosexual arrangements, are doing, Caroline, They're having sex outside
of marriage, and not necessarily in a consensually non monogamous
(07:29):
kind of way. There's a lot of cheating going on. Yeah.
Two thousand one Journal of Family Psychology study found that
infidelity occurs in a reliable minority of American marriages that's
between twenty of all Americans who are having sex with
someone other than their spouse, and it's non consensual and
it's not communicated about. It is something that is done
(07:53):
without their knowledge. Yeah, and for men versus women breakdown.
A two thousand ten University of Chicago research center found
it fourteen percent of ever married women and of ever
married men said that they've had affairs. Well, and I
think what a lot of people are saying, especially Dan Savage,
(08:15):
are like, as far as affairs versus open marriage, wouldn't
it just be better for people instead of going out
and having affairs, they could potentially come back and really
crush your partner, ruin your relationship. Wouldn't it be better
to just have that discussion one way or another of saying, hey,
do you want to do this? Is is is something that
we can do and survive and then set those ground rules. Yeah,
(08:36):
because it's not like historically people especially men not to
harp on men, but especially men having sex outside of
marriages is nothing new whatsoever. And the author of a
History of Marriage puts it thus late She says, the
problem in America is that the so called open marriage
(08:58):
has usually been somewhat one sided. To be a real
open marriage. It has to be, like we've said, a
mutual decision. But for most of history, men had open
marriages and women didn't. Men had affairs and women had
to put up with it. Yeah, we can go back
to say, the eighteenth century when men talked openly of
their mistresses and prostitutes in letters, and it's not so
(09:23):
great still for the women. I think you found some
some research on this as well, about kind of the
maintenance of those extramarital relationships. Well. Darcie Eaton, who, along
with Janet W. Hardy, is an author of The Ethical Sleut,
A Practical Guide to polyamory, open Relationships and other Adventures,
(09:44):
wrote that it used to be considered that if you
had a mistress, it was almost your ethical job to
make sure your partner didn't find out, because anything else
would be totally disrespectful of your partner. And this led
to what was essentially tacit permission for men to have
affairs as long as they were discreet. And so you know,
the thinking goes like, well, okay, so it's respectful to
(10:04):
have an affair as long as you're quiet about it.
And but you know, nowadays with the freak I don't
mean to sound like an old like grandmother sitting on
my porch and my rocking chair, shaking my fist. But
like with the internet these days, like how how discreet
can we actually be? Right? Well, I will say that
open marriage did have quite a moment in not so
(10:28):
surprisingly the seventies, because in nineteen seventy two George and
Nanna O'Neill published a book called Open Marriage, and it
spent more than forty weeks on the New York Times
bestseller list, and open Marriage came out of the cultural closet,
and this book also was ultimately translated into fourteen languages.
(10:48):
It was kind of a revolutionary text that was published.
And so there was this moment when, okay, maybe this
is something that we could try out because we're coming
out of the more mad minished era when you think
of Don Draper having all of these affairs, and open
marriage was more of, uh, this proclamation that it doesn't
(11:12):
have to be that way, right, we can actually do
this whole concentral nonmonogamy in a way that's that's good
for both Don and Betty. You know, well, if you
think about it, I mean this it's not like this
stuff was never going on before this book, you know,
I be I feel like this book was to open
marriage then what the internet is now for us, Like
(11:35):
it brought it to people's attention that other people are
doing it, that it wasn't necessarily something to be quite
so ashamed of or kept so secret. You know that
this is in fact something that goes on in other
cultures and with other couples. Yeah. But still, and maybe
it was because of the more conservative wave that came
(11:55):
through in the nineteen eighties, the moment for open marriage
went by the wayside, and now decades later, a lot
of people who are in open relationships, which is still
a slim minority. It's not it's not a common thing
at all, but a lot of them remain closeted because
(12:16):
of this laundry list of negative stereotypes that we have
about people who openly have sex outside of marriage, which
I find so ironic because it's almost like we punish
them more than we would punish cheaters. Yeah, because they're, well,
they're daring to go against social norms. I mean, there
(12:38):
are people who would argue that, you know, you're not
respecting the institution of marriage. But on the other hand,
why is it any of your freaking business what other
people do well? And I feel like today when not
to just pull out the same things that people say
over and over again, but yet again, if you look
at divorce rates and all of those different statistics, it's like,
(12:58):
who is respecting the sanctity of marriage? Right? And if
you are doing something in agreement with your partner in
order to strengthen your relationship and remain married, especially if
you have children of that marriage, I mean, is that
not good? I mean that's I mean that that is
one thing that Dan Savage argues of. If you can
(13:19):
do something to strengthen your marriage and make you happier
as a couple and so you stay together, right, is
that not? Yeah? And that's I mean that's not to
say that, Hey, if you're having relationships problems, go to
a swingers club right now. But let's at least take
a moment and see whether or not those negative stereotypes
are actually true. Right. So there was one University of
(13:42):
Michigan survey that asked they gave two hypothetical couples. One
was non monogamous and one was monogamous, and they had
all these things that you could rate them on and
before we get into like the major stereotypes about non
monogamous couples, I would just like to take them to
point out that in the results of that University of
Michigan study, people judged the non monogamous couples as less
(14:07):
likely to floss on a daily basis and more likely
to pay their taxes late. We just think they're terrible people.
We think they are horrible people. We also think that
they are sexually risky because of course they're just going
out leaving the kids with god knows who and and
having sex with with strangers. But in fact, a study
(14:31):
I think this was the University of Michigan study, found
that people in open relationships were actually much more likely
to engage in sexual risk prevention than people who were cheating,
including doing things like using condoms, using glows for genital touching,
discussing sexually transmitted diseases and sexual history, and sterilizing sex toys. Yeah,
(14:56):
and they pointed out that cheaters were much more likely
to be drunk or on drugs during their outside encounters
because of that whole life. Oh no, I'm just doing
this by the seat of my pants, So you know,
it's like they're they're under the influence of things, which
we've talked about before, and you know relation to other issues.
When you are under the influence of substances, you are
(15:16):
less likely to be safe in your sexual encounters. And
just to reinforce this point, there was a two thousand
in ten study which found that of game in and
open relationships took specific steps to ensure sexual health. Because
I mean, it makes total sense that that's the case,
because a lot of times, in the best case scenario
(15:38):
for open relationships, you were entering into this agreement with
a lot of conversation. You're getting into some radical communication territory,
and so of course you're going to be maybe more
willing and open to talk about safety as well. Yeah,
another myth is that open relationships are are less emotionally
(16:01):
satisfying then closed relationships. And sure, there are certainly issues
of jealousy that will come up in open relationships. If
you read it, pretty much any article on that, people
will acknowledge like, hey, yeah, of course we've had a
deal with those kinds of issues. Um, But again, because
there's been so much academic focus on game mail couples,
(16:24):
that's why they keep coming up. There was a twenty
tent study which found that game mail relationships are the
only couple type that report equal satisfaction whether or not
their relationships are sexually open or closed. But what made
the difference for those couples and their happiness had nothing
(16:44):
to do with monogamy. It hinged on open communication and
established relationship rules. Yeah, there was one gosh was it
the Advocate article. I'm sorry I can't remember, but there
was one article that talked to one gay couple who
one of the partners, Gary, I think his name was Gary.
Gary raised the idea of having an open relationship. His
(17:08):
partner did not like the idea, was against it. He's like,
do you not love me? Do not find me attractive anymore?
But then they slowly, like just communicated about it more
and more, and we're like, okay, well we're gonna start
here where it's both of us and this other person. Okay, well,
then we're going to broaden it up to like we
can both do things, but we have to tell each other.
And then it kind of like grew from there. They communicated,
(17:30):
they set those rules that both of them were comfortable with.
That was the thing. So that Gary's partner did not
feel like he was being dragged, kicking and screaming into
a scenario he didn't want to be in. It was
more like, okay, well, let's talk about it, get comfortable
with the idea, and and do what we are happy with.
And Gary wasn't stuck wondering should I cheat? Right? Should
(17:51):
I not? Right? Um? And speaking of which, there's this
idea that open relationships are just doomed because of course
you're not you know, you're having sex with other people,
or not having sex but entertaining other people. Um. Again,
Gary and his partner probably, according to research, probably have
longer partnerships than people in sexually exclusive relationships. Yeah. And
(18:15):
people do assume that those in open relationships are completely
just emotional robots. Yeah, they just want sex. Right. But
a study of gay men and open relationships found that
that avoidant attachment was not a factor. Yeah. And the
researchers were surprised by that because their hypothesis was that
men who would be all about open relationships would be
(18:40):
less into the idea of really close emotional bonds. And
they found that oh wait, no, there's actually both. They
actually are emotionally healthy and sexually satisfied. Huh. Okay, Well, now,
speaking of emotions, what about jealousy. Jealousy has got to
be the deal breaker, right, Caroline, You would think it
(19:00):
would be. I mean, it's a natural emotion, everybody feels it.
But studies on polyamorous couples have found that not only
is jealousy not a major problem thanks to all of
that communication that we mentioned, but there's also really no
real gender difference in the amount of jealousy experienced. Yeah.
There's even a term called compersion that Polly people might
be familiar with, because it's a term which is the
(19:24):
happiness that you feel for your partner when he or
she finds someone else that they're interested in. In the
same way, Caroline, that I would be really happy for
you if you got an amazing new car or something.
You know, there's something really great happened to you, I would,
I would feel joy on your behalf. And can you imagine,
(19:46):
I mean, to me, the idea of compulsion of me
getting psyched about my boyfriend finding another girlfriend for you, honey, Yeah,
that's foreign to me. I don't understand, but it exists. Yeah,
I I also have a hard time imagining that. Uh,
But if it is the type of relationship you have,
and you're open and honest, and you honestly both of
(20:09):
you want this for the other person and for yourselves,
then yeah, I could see being excited. You're a go getter.
You went and got that goal. That's right, you achieved
that goal of finding someone else to date. Hooray. But
there is, though, this question of whether or not open
relationships are more slanted towards the desires of men. I mean, again,
(20:34):
we've talked about how a lot of this research in
a rarity actually for research is focused on gay men
because our idea is that, well, men want more sex,
women want more bonding, more relationship, So our open relationships
(20:55):
just women saying, well, I don't want to lose you,
so let's go to that swingers club or or whatever
the arrangement might be. Well. I thought that Dan Savage
had a really interesting take, and by interesting, I mean
it's it's a little harsh, but he had an interesting
take on the topic. He said that the mistake that
(21:16):
straight people made was imposing the monogamous expectation on men.
He said men were never expected to be monogamous. Men
had concubines, mistresses, and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided
that marriage had to be egalitarian and phairsy Uh in
the feminist revolution, rather than extending to women the same
latitude and license and pressure release valve that men had
(21:39):
always enjoyed, we extended to men the confines women had
always endured. And it's been a disaster for marriage. What
do you think about that? That's pretty intense. That is
pretty intense, and I don't agree with all of it.
I don't like putting men and women in such tightly
(21:59):
confined in boxes because I know plenty of men who
don't want sex outside of their relationships, who are extremely monogamous,
textbook monogamous, and I know plenty of women who would
not at an eyelash at being able to have sex
(22:21):
with more than one guy. More Meryl um So and
Dan Savage does get a lot of flak from women
because he sometimes tends to uh downplay how much we
do enjoy sex and how fluid our desire can be
(22:44):
as well. Um So, I think it's extreme what he's saying.
Um And feminist bloggers Steady Doyle also isn't quite on
board with that. Yeah, she says that putting all the
us on the person who doesn't have that fetish or desire.
Particularly if the person who doesn't have that desires the woman,
(23:06):
really reproduces a lot of old structures and means of
oppression for women. Although I was surprised there was a
whole room for debate section in the New York Times
about open marriage when a few years ago Newt Gingrich
is politician Newt Gingrich who hails from Georgia and has
a weak handshake. Oh really small, ted, but huh okay, Well,
(23:29):
his ex wife came out and said that he wanted
an open marriage, and as we all know, he is
now married to his long time mistress. And so everybody
all of a sudden was talking about open marriage because
you know, we have someone like Dan Savage, who of
course is all about monogamous but for a very conservative
Republican politician to be rumored to have wanted an open marriage,
(23:53):
which seems like such a crazy idea, then you know
everybody's got to talk. Well, and you know, he was
so slam for it, uh and he you know, he
was like, oh, that's filth. I can't believe you're reporting
on that. Those are such terrible lies, terrible terrible lies.
And it's like, well, I don't know. I mean the
fact that he asked his wife. Okay, granted she didn't
(24:14):
want it, that's fine, she doesn't. She doesn't have to
participate in this. She doesn't have to be okay with
that at all. But the fact that he asked his
wife tells me like, Okay, well, you know, it's not
like he's without all right, I'm saying this is not
really a new Genger supporter, But it's not like he's
without a moral compass, you know. It's like maybe he
just found in his now wife, Maybe he just found
(24:37):
someone who is more on board with the idea of
not consensual non monogamy. Or the scenario in my mind
is and this is taking him away from the situation. Um,
I could see an open relationship being proposed because someone
started cheating, got found out right, and doesn't want to
(24:59):
stop and say, well, give me the permission to do this,
let's make it open, which is absolutely the wrong way
to go about that. And that's not open now because
exactly because getting caught and just asking for permission when
the other person really just wants you and only you,
I think, is setting yourself up for a downfall big time.
(25:22):
Big time, and so that resonates a lot with what
Doyle is saying in terms of, you know, it shouldn't
be something that women should just be should just have
to go along with so that they can be down,
so that they can be good wives, good girl friends.
I think how good in quotes it is for women,
whether they're in a relationship with a man or a woman.
(25:44):
Um really depends on how the approach to opening up
a relationship happens. Is it coming from a good place
or not. Yeah, I mean there was a gross I
have a gross example, like I actually had to put
my laptop down. I was like, this girl is just
on another planet. Uh Cosmo, of all magazines, you know,
(26:05):
it's my favorite. I had a column where the guy
was there, I don't know the columnists was interviewing a
woman who was in an open relationship with her boyfriend.
But he's like, why did you do this? Like what
what made you decide to do this? Her answer made
me so sad. It was like, well, you know, my
boyfriend is a bartender, and so I just really can't
expect him to be monogamous and I don't want to
(26:27):
put that demand on him, and so I have you know,
come to accept that this is the best way to
keep him. Come on that that to me is not
the true definition of an open relationship either, because she
felt kind of coerced into it, manipulated into it, like
the whole excuse of like, well, men are gonna sew
(26:48):
their wild oats, you know, all that stereotype crap, you know, like, Okay, well,
you know what, maybe he's just not a good boyfriend. Right,
and again, I'll go back to the fact that there
are plenty of dudes out there who want monogamy and
they're fine with monogamy, and she could probably find one
of those men. I mean, monogamy is uh, scientifically, biologically,
(27:14):
anthropologically speaking, a ridiculous standard that we have because we
stay married for so long, because we're expected to only
have sex with one person for forty or fifty years.
That's crazy talk. Um no, I'm not saying morally. Someone's
probably like, oh my god, what is Kristen saying? Your
mother is going to write a the letter. Yeah, I mean,
(27:35):
if you talk to any scientists, um, it is it's
it's such an anomaly in nature that we do this,
and they are perfectly good reasons, Like Dan Savage said,
for monogamy being this gold standard in society for things
like sexual safety, paternity assurance, emotional safety, it provides a
(27:57):
reliable structure for us. Yes, Um. And by the same token, though,
opening up a relationship or just saying just have sex
just to stay with me, it being a lastitch effort
to cater to someone else's needs, that that just breeds resentment.
That's just opening up a panderous box of resentment. Well,
(28:21):
and the thing is, I think a lot of people
react really strongly when a conversation about open relationships happens,
because it's almost like we hear about it and we
assume that Dan Savage or George and Nana O'Neill, who
wrote Open Marriage in nineteen seventy two, are saying, Hey, everybody,
(28:41):
open it up, let's have a free for all. Yeah,
I mean, that's that's definitely not what they're saying. I
think they were maybe more trying to reach towards equality
and happiness and an egalitarian relationship and marriage. Yeah, I mean,
for um, Nana O'Neill, for instance, she's in nineteen she
(29:02):
said quote, I don't think we ever saw it as
a concept for the majority, and certainly it hasn't proven
to be. And I was skimming through open marriage and
it's a lot more about evening out the dynamics in
a relationship, because you think about it, this was published
in nineteen seventy two. Essentially, what they were outlining was
(29:23):
a couple that wasn't the leave it to beaver woman
at home cooking dinner and having Scotch ready for the
man when he comes home from earning the money, um,
rather than it just being a swingers manifesto, right, And
you know what, I I do think that even if
you do not want an open relationship, it's not for
(29:45):
you and your partner. I think we have a lot
to learn from people who are in open relationships, because
if you are in a consensually non monogamous relationship and
it is successful, holy crap, are you doing a lot
of communication. And I think the amount of communication, mutual support,
and just that openness and vulnerability, you know, you're exposing
(30:05):
yourself to something a little scary and and not normal
by a lot of our standards, that really lays a
very strong foundation for your relationship. And I think if
more of us were able to communicate with our partners
more openly like that we would all probably have better relationships,
and I think that requires a solid foundation of trust. Yeah,
(30:27):
I think that it would be hard to UM. And
I really want to hear from listeners on this because
I'm I'm sure that there are people listening who are
in these scenarios or have been. UM, I think it
would be so hard to start off a relationship open.
Oh yeah, I feel like there are those components. The communication,
the trust, the mutual respect, all of those things takes
(30:49):
time to build, and I think it would be really
hard to establish that foundation when other people are in
the mix. Well it's kind of like, well, what point
do you have to stay together? Right if you don't
have some kind of foundation, Um, just between you two,
what's the point of staying together if you find some
hot other thing to sleep with? You know, like there's yeah,
(31:12):
I don't know, but that's just me. And one thing
we haven't even touched on and don't even have time
to is what about the kids? That came up a
lot in the episode on polyamory of how couples and
UM groups will also have kids and you know kind
of how they work all those things out. UM, But
I'm sure that Hey, well, the kids of the Wonder
(31:35):
Woman creator and his wife Marston and their mistress. Those kids,
you know, I don't know. I don't know how they're doing.
I don't know if they're happy or not. But I
mean there were four children in that polyamorous relationship. Yeah,
and they and they lived to tell the tale, right, Um,
So what do you think should we toss it to listeners? Totally?
I want to hear. I want to hear from people. Yeah,
(31:57):
I think. Just to clarify, neither not a Caroline nor I, well,
I don't know speak for you, Caroline. I am not
in an open relationship, but oh my gosh, I haven't
even been with my partner long enough to even like
have any time or focus that I could even like
spare away from our relationship. That's my thing. Like, I mean,
(32:18):
I have never been in an open relationship and I've
never really had the strong desire to be. But you know, so,
um yeah, if that's your thing, that's cool with me.
I'm fine with that. But yeah, I I barely have
time to see my boyfriend, so I don't know how
I would see someone else. But I can imagine though,
from the perspective of your friend who kicked off this
(32:40):
whole conversation we're having, who has known his wife for
years and years and years and years. How it might
be a very different scenario, right, So let us know
what you think. Mom staff a Discovery dot Com is
where you can send your letters. We want to hear
(33:01):
from you. Pros, cons, thumbs up, thumbs downs, open relationship thoughts.
Send them our way and you can also hit us
up on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast.
And now back to our letters. Well, we got a
couple letters here in response to our episode on women's cycling,
and the first one is from Gali, who was the
(33:24):
listener who suggests that we do the podcast, and I
just wanted to share with you that she says, I
avidly read the six Bicycling for Ladies books that was
linked on the Stuff I'm Never Told You tumbler and
learned that apparently bullion was considered a stimulant like tea
(33:44):
and coffee. Brilliant stuff. Oh and there was also a
good bit about always having a small reserve of chocolate
or beef tablet for snacking mid ride. Beef tablets. I
can only imagine the looks my fellow cyclists would give
me of were to take out a beef tablet. Many
already consider it weird that I prefer plain old dried
(34:05):
figs as mid ride snacks instead of bars or gels.
It's funny health times change. That book also showed that shamnois,
which is a type of towel, we're not really things
one discussed back then. Today those things are generally not
discussed either, to my utter dismay, because it takes quite
a few trials and airs to figure out on their
own that not all shamois is the same, and that
(34:27):
not everyone's private parts respond the same way to different
materials and cut especially during a five or six hour ride.
As someone set on sum ride, cycling is good for
your whole body, except your outer vagina. But I guess
that's t m my stuff and wouldn't have been of
interest in eighteen nineties six. Thank you, Gali. Okay, I
(34:48):
have an email from Tristan who says I just listened
to the episode about women cycling in which you mentioned
regulations on women. It grew out of concern for reproductive help.
I found this funny because spending a lot of time
cycling can actually cause a rectile dysfunction in men. The
way body weight is supported on the bike seat places
a lot of pressure on nerves connected to the genitals,
(35:08):
as well as the circulatory system to and from the penis.
From my understanding, you were only at risk if you
spend hours a day on a bike, and most of
the problems will correct themselves if you stop cycling for
a while. I thought you might find the misplaced concern interesting.
So thanks Christmas oh Man who knew cycling was so
hard on the genitals. The hard day's work prayer jumps right,
(35:33):
So thanks to everyone who has written in about cycling
and genitals and all sorts of things. Mom Stuff Discovery
dot com is where you can send your letters. You
can also tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, like us
on Facebook, and follow us on tumbler. Stuff Mom Never
Told You dot tumbler dot com, and if you want
to watch us, you know what to do. Go over
(35:53):
to YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You,
where we have seven d videos maybe more and that
now and click the subscribe button for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works
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