At Home Abortions

A & B take a look at the changing laws around pill induced abortion.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you so. Last month,
the UK government announced that pregnant people in England would
soon be able to have pill induced abortions at home

(00:28):
if they are less than ten weeks pregnant. Today, we're
gonna be getting into the ins and outs of pill
induced abortions sometimes called tell abortions, and the shifting regality
around them in the UK and in the US. Yeah.
And I have to admit that when um, you suggested
this this topic and it was just like tiller abortions,

(00:48):
I had no idea what it was. I thought, like,
it's people calling our people calling, like robo calling, hello,
one hundred abortion. Yes, it is that, like a drone
comes to your house and like I mean in the future,

(01:08):
who knows. But no a tele abortion or different facets
of pill in dis abortions, although I like the idea
of calling a robot and them coming to your house
and having it that way. But here is what a
pill induced abortion is. So, according to a Planned Parenthood quote,
abortion pill is the popular name for using two different

(01:30):
medicines to end pregnancy, Mytho prift stone and MISO pro stall.
Your doctor or nurse will give you the first pill
will prit zone at the clinic. Pregnancy needs a hormone
called progesterone to grow normally. The pristone blocks your body's
own progesterone. You'll also get some antibiotics. The abortion pill
is very effective for people who are eight weeks pregnant

(01:52):
or less. It works about a hundred times for eight
to nine weeks pregnant, it works about nine hundred times
for nine to ten weeks. It works about out of
a hundred times, So the earlier you take it, the
more effective it is. Exactly now. Home abortions were introduced
in Scotland and Wales last year. Now the UK government

(02:13):
has said that this will be legalized in England before
the end of the year. According to the latest figures
from Scotland, eight out of ten women are now choosing
to take the final pill at home instead of in
a clinic. But the Department of Health saying that they
were monitoring this new evidence. Yeah, ten, that's a lot.
It is a lot. Really. This whole debate seems to
come down a personal preference and giving people the option

(02:35):
of doing whatever feels right. I know for me, I'm
a kind of person who might want to take this
second pill with a doctor there um, but not everybody
is like that. It really I can understand why so
many women are opting to do this in a privacy,
in the comfort of their own home, as opposed to
the doctor in a clinic where they have to then
figure out how they're going to get home from there.

(02:56):
And really that that is the crux of why this
is such a big deal. So basically, when you're having
an early medical abortion, you're getting these two pills roughly
two days apart, and it's that second pill that triggers
the abortion. Right now, women in England have to take
this pill in a physically in a clinic under the
direct supervision of a doctor, so a doctor or a

(03:18):
medical professional has to watch you put it in your mouth,
and then you know, you get on the train, you
get in your car, whatever however you're getting home. You
go home and the body does its thing at home. Now,
to be clear, this process has been proven to be
more or less relatively safe, but that doesn't mean it's
going to be comfortable. People who are taking this pill
often experienced symptoms like pain, nausea, vomiting, and bleeding. And

(03:43):
you know, for a lot of folks, you want to
be at home, in bed or wherever, wherever it's comfortable
for you to do this. You don't want to be
in the back of a cab, on a subway, on
a train, um, bleeding and experiencing the symptoms of this
abortion from this pill that you were to take at
some place other than your bed. You know, yeah, I mean, yes,

(04:07):
I feel like that is something that you would want
to do somewhere that you're more comfortable. Um. But I
can see if you're worried about it, that maybe you
would want to be in a clinic. But um, either way,
I think eventually your compleness to get home and sort

(04:27):
of deal with this exactly, I might want to do
this in a clinic, But I think that's what it
really comes down to, is personal choice. We shouldn't be
saying you have to do it in a clinic if
that's not where you feel comfortable. You know, I can
understand the inclination because it's about safety and this and that,
but so many of these as we know, so many

(04:47):
of these decisions purport to be about keeping women safe,
but they're really about taking away women's choices, and we
should be giving women more choices. We should be giving
women the freedom to decide what makes their own body
feel safe and comfortable when they're going through a process.
It's going to be painful and that might be unpleasant,

(05:07):
and we shouldn't be saying there's only one right way
to do this, because that's it's not that's not what
we should be doing. And so I think this is
one of those situations that we talked about in our
episode on benevolent sexism, where it's under this guise of
protecting women, but really it's about taking away choice and
they're doing it for reasons that are not grounded in
medical science. Yeah, and for women that don't live anywhere

(05:31):
near a clinic that does abortions, this could be huge
and we're going to talk about that a little bit
more later. According to official government figures, about eight thousand
abortions occur each year in England, with four and every
five being a medical abortion. People can start experiencing the
abortion and as soon as thirty minutes, which were some

(05:53):
means experiencing symptoms while on public transportation, are in a
camp home, which is not ideal at all. Not ideal.
Um That's what happened to Claudia Craig, twenty year old
women's rights campaign or an activist, after she made the
decision to terminate her pregnancy yet seven weeks last year,
she was forced to go the trauma of starting to
bleed on her way home from the hospital and the

(06:14):
back of a stranger's taxi cab. Here's how she describes it.
It was the shock of it all that was a
bit scary, and they're not quite making it into the
into the bathroom and onto the toilets. Was really unfortunate.
It would have been nice if that could have been avoided.
The whole way through your made to feel like you're
doing something that isn't quite right. There's no reason for that.

(06:39):
There was no reason for that kind of uncomfortable, unpleasant experience.
You know, you might already be feeling a lot of
feelings after getting an abortion, and it's like, why make
that experience. People deserve to have medical procedures of all
kinds be as comfortable as they can be. You know,

(06:59):
if you're get a medical procedure, whether it's an abortion
or a tooth pulled, odds are you're going to be anxious,
You're gonna be nervous, You're gonna have a lot of feelings.
Medical procedure should be done in a ways that make
people feel more at ease, not less at ease. And
I can't think of anything less comfortable than bleeding in
a stranger's cab trying to get home. It's up there

(07:20):
for sure. And because you might feel that anxiety after
taking the pill, the discomfort could be heightened. Jane Dixon
a consultant and sexual and reprojective health care at aner
and Bevin University Health Board. She believes the second pill
could be taken by women at home. She says the
pain and discomfort experienced are equivalent to a natural miscarriage,

(07:41):
but pain sensations can be heightened by anxiety and uncertainty.
This is why being able to manage the experience yourself,
when and where you want, with the emotional support you
want is likely to improve women's perceptions of pain. And
I have to point out the decision that England made
to let people take the second pill at home wasn't
just a choice or a ruling. Like most kinds of

(08:04):
social progress, the change in England was the result of
campaigners and advocates making a lot of noise and speaking
up about this issue. The British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a
UK abortion provider, has long been campaigning and advocating for
home abortions to be legalized. Clara Murphy, it's director of
external Affairs told the Son there is no clinical reason
to deny women the option of using this medication at home.

(08:27):
It is safe and effective to do so, which means
the only grounds refusing are political. And I think she's
completely right that, you know, the medical we should be
making rules and regulations along medical science. And if the
medical science says there is no reason why you can't
take this pull at home, it is safe, it's effective,
might make you more comfortable do it. And the law

(08:49):
saying no do it in a clinic and bleed out
in a taxi cab. And I think I think she's
exactly right that if it's not grounded in medical science,
then it also be political, must be social. What other
explanation could there be? Yeah? The World Health Organization figures
reveal that administering the second pill at home has no

(09:10):
adverse effects on the outcome of a termination. Between of
pregnancies were successfully terminated when it was administered at home now.
Because this law was preventing women in England from taking
the second pill at home, some people were resorting to
illegally buying it online and taking it at home. There.

(09:31):
Over the past three years, drug enforcement officers have seized
almost ten thousand sets of abortion pills on their way
to addresses. In Britain, the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory
Agency or the m h r A, told the BBC.
Kate Gethri, who works for the service Women on web
dot org, which helps women who want to buy the
tablets online, and told the BBC that two thousand, two

(09:53):
hundred and twelve women had contacted her asking for abortion
pills in the past eighteen months. For four months, Women
on Web tracked how many women were illegally asking for
these pills for four months, and of the one hundred
eighty women who responded during that four month time, about
half that they had difficulty accessing the NHS abortion services.

(10:15):
Other reasons they gave for trying to get these pills
illegally were things like distance and waiting times, and other
things like does not being able to get childcare or
time at work. For instance, Linda not her real name,
a thirty one year old living in Scotland said, I
already have three kids and I am a single working mum.
I do not have the funds to pay for the
childcare while in the hospital. I really need to do

(10:36):
this in my own home. Another of women that they
were worried their abortion might not be kept confidential and
eighteen percent wanted to keep their abortion a secret from
a violent partner or controlling family member. So there's a
lot of reasons why besides comfort, that people would want
to do this at home, as this illustrates, and UM,

(10:58):
I do think that it's medically safe. It should be
available for women who want to go that way. UM
and we do have some a little bit of ripple
ripple effects out to the United States that we're going
to talk about of tele abortion, But first we're going
to take a quick break for a word from our

(11:18):
sponsor m and we're back, thank you, sponsor. Okay. In
the United States, at home abortions UM are a new battlefield,

(11:38):
especially with the prospect of an increasingly conservative Supreme Court
and uncertainty around Roe v. Wade, which is why many
turned to tele abortion. That's right, abortion to be a
telemedicine has been available in the United States since two
thousand and eight, when the first formal program began in Iowa.
So how this works, Like, what makes this the tele

(11:59):
part of a tele abort? And a patient in one
clinic confers via video conference with a doctor and another
clinic and then receives abortion pills. Now, this satisfies a
federal requirement that the doctor quote dispense the pill to
a patient in a clinic office or hospital. Video conferencing
is also a useful way to sort of women in
remote or rural areas, but opponents have responded quickly, prohibiting

(12:22):
abortion via telemedicine in twenty states. In one of those states, Iowa,
the state Supreme Court reversed the band. Yeah, And as
I've mentioned before on this show, I think I grew
up in a really small town, and I remember the
big deal it was when there was talk of our
hospital closing because there were no other There were no

(12:45):
other closer hospitals, I mean that were like reasonably close.
And I hear so often about like medical deserts where
there's nothing nothing nearby, And I think that video conferencing
and these other ways that we can connect to healthcare

(13:07):
and maybe get an abortion pill. It can be extremely useful, definitely.
I used to work for a news organization called Rewired
News and they've been doing a lot of interesting um
work around reproductive healthcare, especially in places like the Ozarks,
um and the Appalachia, And honestly, we should do a
whole episode about this. But the different alternative ways of

(13:30):
getting healthcare to people who need it. One, I'm shocked
at the resilience that that people have gone to get healthcare.
There's there's things like vans that will drive to you
to give you basic services. Um, there's video conferencing, but
to it just reminds us that there are medical landscape
is so severely lacking in so many places, and a

(13:52):
lot of times these places that you just described, these
rural communities, places like the Ozarks, Appalachia, that's where the
need is greatest. And so it just it it boggles
the mine. I'm I'm uh full disclosure. I am recording
this in New or New York City right now, and
I'm going on a trip tomorrow. And I was able
to walk out of my hotel in New York and

(14:13):
there were four urgent care clinics on the street. So
it was like I was looking at three of them.
I went into one, I waited for ten minutes, and
I was out right, Like when you compare that to
the experience of someone who is living in the ozarks
or a rural community, I mean, it's just it boggles
the mine, you know, And everybody needs healthcare, everybody gets sick,

(14:34):
everybody needs needs care at some time. But just the
inability of folks to access really basic services, it's it's really,
it's it's sad, it's it's a failure on the part
of our country. Yeah, I mean people were afraid when
the hospital possibly was going to shut down. People who

(14:55):
were really I could just hear in their voice the
anxiety of what would we do if it happened I
have this issue or of that issue. Yeah, I can't afford.
I don't I don't have the time. I can't afford
to like drive this far to the next hospital. Yeah.
There are places in the United States where if you
want to get an abortion that you have to travel

(15:16):
so far just to get too clicks because they're shutting down.
And again, when we have these places where, like you said, Annie,
just getting access to healthcare is such a tough thing,
we should be looking at ways to make that less tough,
and so you might be thinking, well, then why don't
they just make the abortion pill that you can get

(15:38):
it over the counter. If it's so hard, like, why
maybe they should deregulate it where people can get access
to it if it's safe and that's something people need.
But that's not what we're doing. We're doing the opposite. Yeah.
A lawsuit file last year argues medication abortions should be
offered by prescription at the local drug store, and this
could amount to a seismic shift in abortion access. Kauai

(15:59):
doctor Graham Chilius, who bought the suit with the American
Civil Liberties Union, the a c l U, and several
healthcare associations, called the restriction medically unnecessary and burdensome because
Kauai lacks a single abortion clinic. Chilia said he'd like
to stock MIFO pristone, but cannot because of the f
d A restriction. Quote, So if one of my patients

(16:22):
wants to enter pregnancy, she has to fly to a
different island one fifty miles away to get this care.
In the United States, the FDA regulates mif A prix
under a set of rules called risk Evaluation and Mitigation
Strategy are e m s. Because of these mandates, only
healthcare providers who have pre registered with the manufacturer of

(16:43):
mio Prex and stock the abortion pill in their health
care facility may hand patients the medication. In a paper
titled sixteen years of over Regulation, Time to Unburdened mill
for Prex, published in April in the New England Journal
of Medicine, leading clinicians and public health x or argue
that the FDA restriction was medically unnecessary, and a CLU

(17:05):
attorneys noted that leading medical groups, including the American Congress
of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making the pill available by
prescription at pharmacies. Quote overwhelming medical experience and decades of
clinical experience show medication abortion to be safe and effective
method to end of pregnancy. Dr Paul Blumenthal, director of
the Gynecology Service at Standard University, said in a statement,

(17:27):
there is simply no medical justification for these restrictions and
they create needless and harmful burdens for women seeking this care.
Um again but that that sounds so much like what's
going on, what was going on in England, where it's
clear from medical professionals and medical research that there is
not a reason for creating more barriers and more rules
around how people can get access to this care in

(17:49):
the way that is right for them. If we understand
that some folks are in situations where there aren't ton
of clinics, or maybe you're just busy and you can't
get to a clinic, we should be making access to
this care easier, and these doctors agree, but we're not
doing that, Nope. And because of that, people have resorted

(18:10):
to buying the pills online, just like they do in
the UK. And we're going to talk more about that
when we get back from one more quick break forward
from our sponsor m and we're back, Thank you sponsor.

(18:33):
So yeah, here in the United States, just like in
the United Kingdom, women are trying to get these pills
by buying them online. Olga Chasm at The Atlantic did
a really comprehensive piece back in July called Alitale abortion
will mean Abortion by Mail that summarized a lot of
the current climate around obtaining abortion pills online. Yeah, the

(18:57):
piece is fascinating and I cannot recommend that folks readed enough.
We'll link out to it in the show notes, but
it's it's really really interesting in terms of where we're
at with abortion by pill and where we're going. So
the reasons why women in the United States might be
looking to get the pill online are pretty much what
you might expect and are very similar to what's going
on in the UK, cost restrictive laws, and personal preference.

(19:20):
Abigail Keane, an assistant professor of public Affairs at the
University of Texas Austin, conducted interviews with thirty two people
from twenty states who sought out abortion pills online for
a study called Why US Residents Seek Abortion Medication Online.
She found that women turned to mail order abortions because
the clinic based abortion was too expensive, or because state
restrictions around abortion like waiting periods and ultrasound laws were

(19:43):
too onerous, and some just preferred the privacy and convenience
of doing their own abortion at home. But as you
might imagine, buying pills online, especially if there's kind of
this aura of secrets the around it um can be
a little tricky. It can be a bit of a risk.

(20:06):
You don't know what you're gonna get, is what I'm
trying to say. If you've ever bought like an outfit
from one of those very cheap but very suspicious looking
websites online where it's like a picture of Chloe Kardashian
looking amazing and addressed and that same dresses and then
you buy it. I've had that experience. Mine was a

(20:26):
pleather leggings that did not look anything like what I
was what I was promised. If you've ever had that experience,
as I'm sure some of you have, buying abortion pills
online can be very similar. Um. This report talked about
how the websites are often riddle with typos, that transactions
don't seem very trustworthy. And this is not an experience
that sort of, you know, inspires confidence in your abortion. No,

(20:51):
I have to say one one thing that I immediately
gets me like, raises my my haunches. It's like my
Spidey sense. That's it. Um Is it like typos and
font choice and any kind of like you might want
to keep this a secret, like any sort of thing

(21:12):
like that. I'm a little on edge, a little suspicious.
I'm gonna say I'm probably not the only one. There
was a study published earlier this year called exploring the
Feasibility of obtaining mythopris Stone and Misa prostaal from the internet.
Elizabeth Raymond, a senior medical associate at the research organization Ginuity,
googled phrases like by abortion pills online, which it seems

(21:36):
like a pretty good phrase to type in first step one.
The researchers ended up ordering eighteen of the pill combinations
from sixteen different websites, none of which required a prescription.
The pills came from India, where there is a large
generic drug industry. Shipments costs between a hundred and ten
to three hundred and sixty dollars, and the packages took

(21:58):
between three days three weeks to arrive. Two buyers received
troubling communications from product vendors. One warned about the legality
of purchasing online quote please do not share this info
with any other side because investigation team is searching the
details for this type of medicine. And in the second case,

(22:21):
the vendor complained that he was unable to get payment
from the online payment platform and threatened to withhold shipment
until the buyer paid another way. After some convincing, he
finally sent the product. In addition, one buyer who paid
with Western Union received two fraud alert calls, one from
Western Union advising against purchasing pharmaceuticals online, and another from

(22:43):
her credit card company. Raymond also noted that some of
the blister packs of pills arrived broken. She says this
might be due to the fact that the shippers are
afraid that custom service would be able to feel with
the packaging and see that there are pills in there,
so they crushed the blister pack, which, if you're trying
to get medicine, it's a little worrying. It's a little troublesome.

(23:05):
Although the mythoprit his own pills contain the expect of
auto medications, most of the pills contained less than a
labeled dose. Now they might still work even at a
lower dose, she says. But what's more, none of the
pills came with any instructions or how to use them.
So this experience does not seem like one that is
necessarily on the up and up. Will say, but it

(23:27):
is an experience that people in the United States turned to.
Yeah and um. Women can be arrested for trying to
end pregnancies outside of a medical capacity. The s I
a legal team, a group of lawyers who specialize in
women who induce their own abortions. Knows of twenty one
people who have been arrested or prosecuted for ending their

(23:49):
pregnancies outside a medical setting or for helping someone else
to do it. It might be an undercount since the
organization relies on news reports to track these cases. The
charges brought against women whose self abord can range from
child abuse to the abuse of a corpse to a
failure to report a death, says Jill Adams. She is

(24:10):
si AS chief strategist. So what's interesting is none of
these women were actually prosecuted simply for the act of
buying abortion pills specifically, but Adams points out that fine
pills online and even googling things like buy abortion pills
can leave a paper trail that has then used as
evidence in these cases. In seven states, self induced abortion

(24:31):
is illegal, and you might have heard in A woman
in Indiana named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years
in prison for fet aside after she allegedly used abortion
pill she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed for fetus had been
born alive and she allowed it to die. Her conviction
was later overturned in an appeal, so we can kind
of get a sense that this is a desperate situation

(24:54):
for a lot of people out there. I mean, people
don't just turned these fishy online websites that could, you know,
get you arrested for no reason for fun. This is
clearly a very very desperate situation for a lot of
folks out there. And yeah, I think that's why it's
sort of important to get a lay of the land
in terms of where where we're at with this issue

(25:16):
in the United States, as it seems like we are
getting closer and closer and closer to a more conservative
Supreme Court. If Supreme Court Justice nominee Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed,
it's not impossible that Roe v. Wade could be overturned.
You know, we could be in a very very different
landscape when it comes to reproductive justice, of reproductive freedom

(25:37):
and reproductive access um very soon. So it's important to
understand sort of where we're at and where we could
be on this issue. Yeah, absolutely, and we need to.
I mean, if we're making it where women are seeking
out these illegal pills because other options are closed to them,

(25:57):
or because they're afraid that they they will be closed
to them, there's just a lot of things that this
should get us thinking about and talking about and things
that we could improve so that this isn't happening. That
what is already a difficult medical experience medical choice um

(26:20):
doesn't have to be more difficult. That's really the thing
that gets me is that any medical procedure is kind
of a drag. We should not be making it more
difficult to access less comfortable. We should only be regulating
things that are you know, medically sound, based on medical information,
not anything else. And I just people deserve to have

(26:43):
their medical procedures, whether it's an abortion or an appendectomy,
people deserve to have them with dignity and in comfort. Agreed. Agreed.
We would love to hear from from folks in the
UK about their experience, if they have, if they have
any insights or thoughts on that. And speaking of hearing

(27:04):
from listeners, it's time for listener mail. Debbie Route. I'm
a service engineer for a high end nanotechnology company and
my job has me on the road literally every day.
I'm home every other weekend most of the time, and
spend more time in airports than I do in my
own house. I traveled domestically as well as internationally, and

(27:24):
typically alone, which I love. The question I get most
often from friends and family who think I'm crazy, is
but how do you eat? Do you eat at restaurants alone?
Insert horrified phase here, Yes I eat food. Sometimes I
eat food and restaurants, and yes I eat food and

(27:44):
restaurants alone. I don't get why this is such a
huge hang up for people. You know what you get
when you're eating alone. Whatever you're damn well please, and
that's in all caps. I want to eat the same
Chinese takeaway four days in a row. I'm gonna eat
those delicious spring rolls four days in a row. If
I want to go out for a fancy dinner, I
get to pick the bottle of wine that I really want,

(28:06):
not share the best bites of food with anyone, and
have a wonderful evening chatting with the staff, enjoying a
great view of whatever city I'm in. I find that,
once you get over yourself and realize that no one
is judging you, and if they are, they have way
too much time and energy on their hands, eating out
alone is really a relaxing experience. There's something so wonderfully
luxurious about sitting alone in a lovely restaurant, drinking glass

(28:29):
of wine, snacking on top of us and not worrying
about keeping up a conversation. Are looking sexy while eating
You can take as long as you want to finish
your meal, order nothing but espresso and dessert, and just
enjoy where you are. Dining alone is my time to
unwind after a crazy week, and I love it. Yes,
there are plenty of hassles that come with traveling while female.

(28:49):
Don't get me started in the Middle East, But as
long as you go into it with the right mindset,
solo travel is safe and empowering experience that I encourage
every woman to undertake. I love this because I get
that all the time to um eating alone as if
what is wrong with you? How can you do it?
And I actually remember when UM, there was this big

(29:12):
kerfuffle of like us, I don't know, articles coming out
about the needles are eating alone? What's it going on?
Societies ending? Um? But it it can be. It can
be a really lovely and relaxing experience. Sometimes it's hard
to get over that first initial like table for one, UM,

(29:35):
but I I actually had a wonderful experience with this
recently that turned into not eating alone, but because I
was sitting alone. People came and sat with me that
I'd never met and never would have talked to in
my life, and it it worked out wonderfully. So you
never know, um, that it can be really wonderful experience. Yeah,

(30:00):
I our lives, thank you for writing in our Our
lives sound very similar. Um. I have to travel domestically
quite a bit for just for work stuff. So I'm
often in a on a train or on a plane,
and so I am often in new cities, often eating alone.
And you really, like you said, like the after the
initial sort of whatever anxiety you feel about it, you

(30:22):
really get used to it and it's quite a lovely experience,
you know. I a lot of my good friends are
working the restaurant industry because I so often eat alone,
and it's like you make friends and blah blah blah. Um.
I really enjoy it too. Honestly, some of the letters
that we've got it makes me think that we should
do an entire episode on just women alone, you know,
traveling alone, eating alone? What are other things people do alone?

(30:45):
Um that people think that's weird? Yeah, I mean I
think that so many women wrote in about doing things
that society says that you should do with a partner alone,
And I think I think there's something like going to
the movies alone, which which is like my favorite activity
in the world. Oh my god, I am. I am
in heaven. Not like my version if I have no

(31:09):
plans on a weekend, My version of heaven is to
pick two we either to like weird movies that no
one would ever want to see except for me. And
maybe that's maybe that's show, uh, like a ten hour
documentary about the Holocaust. Maybe that's Mama Mia to like, um,
you know, it could be it could be anything, but

(31:30):
just going to see a movie, sneaking in my candy
and just like being in heaven not having to look
at my partner and being like, oh my god, I
dragged them to this and they hate it and they
hate me and this is awkward and it's a bad day.
Blah blah blah. Like being free of all of that
and just like being in a movie alone, liking it
or not liking it. It's like I'm in like I'm
in heaven. It's my it's my happy place. But I

(31:52):
do think there is something around doing these things that we,
especially women, have been conditioned for so long that you
do them with a romantic partner, and if you do
them alone, you're a freak. People are reclaiming that and saying, actually,
I love eating alone. Actually I love traveling alone. Actually
I love going to the movies alone. Actually I love
doing sports alone. You know. Yeah, for sure, we're definitely
moving that way. And it has been interesting because it

(32:15):
is sort of younger folks doing it more, I think,
or at least that was what the starting wave was.
And so when those when I was sitting eating alone recently,
the people that came and sat with me were these
older gentlemen who could not fathom he would choose to
eat alone. But we actually we had a great conversation

(32:36):
from that, and really it was a great experience. It
was a great experience. Yeah, I mean, I do think
that if you look at the numbers we're getting, we're
marrying less and less and things like things that used
to be markers of kind of being successful adults, marriage,
car ownership, homeownership, we are sort of less tether to

(32:58):
those things, and so I think that has something to
you with it. It's a shifting, the shifting priorities of
young people, and that young people are much more likely
to prioritize experiences over things, and so you know, we
would value like a lavish trip more than you know, say,
owning a BMW. And I think I think it's just

(33:18):
I think it's just a reimagining of how we live
our lives and actually relates to our next letter, Samantha wrote,
I just listened to the podcast about solo traveling. I
was in France at the same time as you. It
was really exciting seeing your Instagram post as I was
finished about my first solo journey and my first time abroad.
I spent two half weeks in Switzerland and then two

(33:39):
weeks in South France solo before meeting my parents in Paris.
It definitely felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity
that passed me by before for many reasons, and I'm
really glad I finally got to do it. I enjoyed
listening to the podcast about how you and Annie talked
about society not being okay with women traveling solo. I've
done some internship stuff around the US, so a lot
of my family members and family friends assume that I

(34:00):
was doing another internship thing, or at least going with
a friend when I responded to the who are you
going with question with the words myself, I always got
a confused look, and maybe the words you're braver than
I am. While flattering, I also feel conflicted about this
kind of reaction. I'm not entirely sure why it bothered me,
although it is in part because I was always labeled

(34:21):
as a shy kid, and despite me growing up, it
seems like everyone is surprised when I do something adventurous.
I also want to say, in a cheesy way, I
do feel like this trip changed me too. I feel
more confident, particularly in social situations, and more excited about
future possibilities to try new things, meet new people, and
see new places. I'm currently in my second year of
working toward a PhD in math, and I'm hoping this

(34:43):
new confidence will stick with me through the challenges I
faced this semester um. If it sounds like I'm smiling
my head off while I'm reading this letter, it's because
I am. Um, Samantha, thank you so much for writing in.
It's so cool that we were in France together alone
for at the same time. It's almost like we were
there together, but you know, apart um. Yeah, I mean

(35:05):
so will travel. I completely agree that it did make
me feel more confident, and I'm I love the idea
of you sort of shirking this label of like, oh,
you're just a shy, sweet kid and say no, I
can I can do adventurous things. I can be by myself.
I can talk to strangers in Paris and make friends
with them. And I really really hope that you bring

(35:27):
that good energy into your studies. It it sounds like
you're kind of poised to really tap into whatever that
that thing that made you feel so confident and good
on your own in France. It sounds like you're poised
to bring that back to your to your real life
and to your work as a PhD student. By the way,
PhD and math very rad. Yeah, this is this letter

(35:48):
just makes me very happy. Yes, um, I've gotten that,
Like you're braver than I am response to And I
think the reason for me that it's so annoying in
a weird way because it's almost like dismissive, as if
it just comes more naturally to you. I don't know.

(36:09):
I I appreciate like the thought behind it, but I
understand the kind of weirdness there of like I guess
I guess, but thanks to both of them for writing in.
If you would like to write you as you can.
Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com,

(36:29):
and as always, you can find us on social media
or on Instagram stuff Mom Ever Told You, and on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thanks to our producer
Andrew Howard