October 12, 2015 • 47 mins
Sweatpants are the new slacks, and high tops are the new heels. Cristen and Caroline dissect the rise and resilience of the athleisure trend and whether it signals mainstream women's fashion moving sidestepping the male gaze and gendered clothing altogether.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to
works not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline. I feel like I
should be wearing my high tops and my favorite striped
(00:23):
sweatshirt for this episode. Yeah, I should totally be in
my Is it Athleta the brand? Yeah? Yes, I should
be wearing my fancy athlete A sweatshirt. It's it's sweatshirt material.
It's very soft, but it has like an asymmetrical front,
so it's snazzy. I didn't realize. I went into athlete
at one time looking for sports bras, and as I
(00:45):
was walking around, I was like, whoa, they have clothes
like that I can wear outside and not have it
look like I'm just walking around in gym clothes. Yeah.
Athleta is a division of Gap, and They're clothes are
becoming more successful than Gaps I know. Well as about leisure, Yeah,
(01:06):
well Gap did just hire a new creative director. I
think so maybe they'll come stage to come back perhaps,
But can anything be as comfortable as that sweatshirt? I
submit to you that it cannot. Yeah, I am wearing
these pants that are kind of as close to yoga
pants as I could get wearing to the office. They're
like a thicker yoga pants, but I got a zip
(01:28):
in the back, y'all a little stretch. Yeah, they also
still feel slightly inappropriate for the office. But my gosh,
all of this spandex is just so comfortable. It's like
I'm not wearing pants at all, which is actually like
my nightmare about I've had that dream about myself. Not
you good good, Um. But we're talking about our high tops,
(01:53):
which I do own, and I do love them. They're
so warm. They're like ugs, but like better, you know,
because they keep more socially acceptable a little bit at
this point, Um, and all of our comfortable clothes because,
as you probably guess from the title of this podcast episode,
we're talking about the ath leisure trend because it's here
(02:15):
to stay. And I argue that it says a lot
about perhaps where we are workplace culture is and some
some gender workplace and out of workplace culture. Wise, I
would say that it says a lot about the fact
that work life balance doesn't really it's not a thing anymore.
(02:36):
People talk about work life balance from a very like
eighties and nineties perspective, but in our changing economy, Kristen,
especially as we get more fancy tech companies that let
you bring your dog to work, that's not us by
the way. Uh, there's really no line between life and
work anymore. Yeah. And on the gendered side of it too,
(02:59):
it it's really not dressing for a male gaze. Like
wearing my high tops and sweatshirt. I am not turning
heads except other girls heads to be like, where did
you get them? High tops? Those are cute? It looks
so comfortable, sensible, and so it's it's really interesting to
think of high fashion now um, really colliding with what
(03:21):
was more of the lure fashion. But first, let's talk
about at leisure. What is this thing at leisure? This
portmanteau of athletic. It's like benefits leisure. Beneferis Ben and Jennifer.
Who was that? First it was been Athleck and j
Lo and then rest in peace Jennifer Garner. She's not dead.
(03:44):
I just mean they're getting a divorce, Caroline. Yeah, rest
in peace to that marriage. Sorry, back to sweatpants. Yeah.
At leisure is basically the concept of dressing for the gym.
If you want to be really cute when you go
to a gym, but actually going to the gym is
so optional. Yeah, oh, trust me, I have there have
(04:07):
been days where I'm like, you know, I've been cleaning
my apartment all day. I really need to go to
the grocery store, but I am gross looking, and I'm
not wearing makeup and I'm not about to put makeup on.
How can I go to the grocery store looking like
this and have it be socially acceptable? I know this
has literally happened more than once. Often I will put
on I'll change out of my like gross cleaning clothes
(04:31):
and put on like cuter yoga specific clothes and tennis
shoes and socks and be like, see, I just I
just came from the gym. Maybe at leisure it works
on so many levels. Um Vogue reported in October that
roughly half of the people buying activewear these days, so
(04:53):
you yoga pants and sports bra, zias and such, they're
buying it for non active use, such as go into
the grocery store. Yeah, everything that Stacy London would preach against.
I know. Oh Stacy London, where are you? We have
so many questions for you? Do you have so many
questions mostly about the singular pant. Yeah, the sweat pant,
(05:15):
yoga pant, Yes, pant. But I loved this. So Women's
Health noted that in yoga participation was up four point
five percent, not must day, but yoga, where sales were
up percent. We have a whole wardrobe. And I will confess, Caroline,
that I am consistently one of the worst dressed in
(05:37):
yoga because I cannot. I just don't have the disposal
income to buy all sorts of things. And I you know,
I probably should buy newer sports bras, but it's all
like I am in like pattered rags. Comparatively Cinderella. Yeah,
do these these women who come in with very cute ensembles.
That's the same way I my whether I'm doing yoga
(05:59):
or running or whatever, my uniform is T shirt probably
from some event that I went to and kneel link
yoga pants and sneakers, um, and so I am also
I basically I don't look like I'm a professional yoga doer.
Speaking though, of T shirts, Caroline, I don't know about you,
but one of my favorites to wear in yoga class
(06:21):
or working out is my w W g D T shirt,
which is what would Glory do. Gloria's dynam it makes
me feel empowered a little bit. Well, I'm working out,
you know, Kristen. One of my favorite shirts to work
out in is the Hey Lady's shirt featuring none other
than yours truly and also yours truly pointing at you,
that you can buy on our spreadshirt store. Do people
(06:44):
ever do double takes when they notice that you're wearing
your face on your your boobs? No? No, because I
guess it's a cartoon rendering, so so it's not as
clear it's our caricature faces. We both have giant Moses
and jims unrecognizable. Um. Well, back to at leisure? Can
(07:07):
we just talk about our faces on shirts for another
half hour? Um? Back to at leisure. Though there were
lots of different terms for it before the industry kind
of begrudgingly settled on at leisure. It's been called performance lifestyle.
The Wall Street Journal called it convertible dressing, and my favorite,
(07:29):
some bloggers tried to call it the cozy boy movement
for guys, and g Q also tried to make sports
core happen. But no, no, no, no leisure. I'm sure
the people who call it sports Core also go to
CVS and buy the shower poof that's made specifically for men,
which is like a dollar cheaper than the regular shower poofs.
(07:52):
I'm not mad sports Core. I did post about it
on my Instagram though. Um, but it's not like this
is cheap. It's not like thing out of mainstream fashion
and wearing your yoga pants to be sports core is
a cheaper lifestyle. All you have to do for evidence
is visit Tory Birch's athletes are offshoot called Tory Sport
for avant and opre sport clothes. I love that. I
(08:17):
did not see the price, but saw that it offers
some pearl encrusted sneakers. I can't believe my mother hasn't
tried to make me buy those yet. Oh maybe I'll
drop a little friendly hint for the holidays. Kelly, don't
answer the phone and Kristen calls um, and we are
buying this stuff up like hotcakes. Forbes magazine recently reported
(08:41):
that US consumers spent three billion dollars on apparel, footwear,
and accessories in which is only up one percent from
the previous year, But that one percent is a two
billion dollars worth one percent, so nothing to sneeze at,
and that money has only grown since. Well, I was
(09:05):
interested to see that this. I just figured the word
ath leisure, and the concept was new relatively if anything
ever knew anymore, Caral, I'm figuring out that it's not.
I thought it was really interesting that Miriam Webster actually
traced the first use of the potmanteau ath leisure to
(09:26):
a nineteen seventy nine issue of Nation's Business. In that article,
John Gibauer, who was the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association's director
of Advertising and Promotion at the time, said the booming
popularity of fitness has given birth to a similar boom
in apparel and footwear design for those who actually participate
in sports and those who just want to look as
(09:48):
if they do. The whole ath leisure, a new term
that's popped up market, is in a state of tremendous growth.
So the more things change, Christen, the more things change,
the more things change, the more we just revert to sweatsuits. Yeah, well,
at least we're not doing that. We I mean collectively,
and this is idealistic, but at least we're not doing
(10:09):
the whole juicy on the butt thing anymore, right, please?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that trend that was a high
school era trend for us where I remember my mother
was outrage at the idea of young women wearing slogans
on their behind. Well, I just I just think that
(10:29):
wearing like a pink terry cloth jumpsuit is none too flattering.
I had some of those terry cloth pants caroline nothing
on the butt, but they were an unfortunate shade of orange.
But we've definitely seen this fashion trend even before nineteen
seventy nine, this whole interplay of of how do we
(10:50):
blend our sporting life with our everyday life life. And
Britt Peterson broke this down in a fantastic Austin Globe
column where she notes that sporting specific clothes first appeared
in the Middle Ages, with things like gauntlets for falconry
and writing boots for writing things. Um, and there were
(11:14):
status symbols, not surprisingly because if you could afford to
not only have time to have these hobbies and then
also have these special things that you would wear while
doing them, that takes some money, I mean, and falconry
just period. I mean, the cost of entry is astonishing.
Now I wear my sports falcon everywhere. Yes, Um, what's
(11:36):
your sports falcon's name? Jim, Jim, Yeah, oh Jim. But
as we see sports develop as a thing like team
sports start to develop, custom athletic where evolves along with it,
and specifically though for the aristocratic among us, because it's
signals that you have time to play sports and that
you have the money to invest in what at the time,
(11:57):
we're often custom out fits. I mean, think about it.
In the late nineteenth century, you're seeing this boom in cycling,
in tennis, and for tennis, Oh God help you if
you're not wearing your adorable tennis whites. Yeah. And and
women need to move around to do both of these things, um.
And there is a growing aversion to wearing corsets and
(12:18):
more restrictive clothing as a result of that. So you
see the rise of sporting dresses and of course Bloomers,
which we've mentioned it's so often on the podcast. Um
Peterson though in The Boston Globe described Bloomers as quote
the yoga pants of the eighteen nineties, which that alone
(12:39):
justifies us doing this episode. If we can link Amelia
Bloomer and reform dressed and first wave feminism to yoga
pants today perfect and Amelia Bloomers sentiments about the need
for this bifurcated garment um. And in case you aren't
familiar with Bloomers, they are so a midcalf hammer pants,
(13:02):
and they're like hammer pants, but you would wear still
a skirt over them, but it would be a shorter skirt,
more knee length or midcalf, because come on, the lots
of room to let your knees breathe. Yes, yes, but
we're still ladies. But Bloomer said around eighteen fifty quote
as soon as it became known that I was wearing
the new dress, letters came pouring in upon me by
(13:23):
the hundreds from women all over the country, making inquiries
about the dress and asking for patterns, showing how ready
and anxious women were to throw off the burden of long,
heavy skirts. And to me, that's so echoes the ath
leisure relief of saying, oh, I can wear hi tops
to the office or out to dinner if I want
(13:46):
to instead of heels. Fantastic. Let us throw off our
burdensome garments and put on a sports bra. And we
moved into the twentieth century sports and leisure because more
fashionable with help from people like Coco Chanel and other
famous designers who reinvented sportswear, which is not just sportswear.
(14:11):
It could be activewear that you're wearing to be active
and do active things. It could be passive and that
you are a spectator of something active, or it could
just mean that you're flitting about town or driving out
to the country to to look at your horses. Yeah,
sportswear is not really not like running shoes and shorts.
(14:32):
It's more like a Michael Core's ensembles. I never I
never understood that as someone who's consumed women's magazines my
entire life. Basically like seeing pictures of like the Spring
sports where I'm like, they're wearing blazers. You can't play
sports in that you can't play bad men in a blazer. Um.
(14:54):
But speaking of bloomers, it is just a degree of
separation away from at leisure. Again, I clearly I'm very
obsessed with this link between nineteenth century bloomers and my
yoga classes today because they were actually between the two
um yoga bloomers. It's just like fun fact I was
trying to find the origin of yoga pants, because obviously
(15:20):
yogi's of old did not wear Lulu women yoga pants
for any kind of like spandex garment um. In the
nineteen seventies though apparently, uh yogis in the US usually
wore T shirts and yoga bloomers which kind of look
like oversized diapers their shorts. But the hem is gathered
(15:41):
so that when you are doing your poses, you are
not exposing your genitals to the rest of the class.
Just just a considerate thing. Although I mean, like a
lot of yogi's will you know, if you're like really
hardcore about it, you'll do that naked. Um. But well,
I think it's funny then though that the l A
(16:01):
Times read about in that the quote once disparate worlds
of fashion and athletics have been on a convergence course
because it's obviously not news. It's obviously been happening since
Amelia Bluemer exactly. Um, but why though, but why now,
why are we all essentially wearing yoga pants all of
(16:24):
the time. Well, it took off in just to give
you a sense of like how quickly this happened, and
you did have like a lot of celebrity lead collaborations
like uh, Alexander wag and h and M Beyonce and
top shops. So at least it was brought to the masses.
(16:44):
But there obviously were some some background factors to this.
First of all, in early we had norm core becoming
mainstream that I'm sorry that hit too close to home
because that is how my mother dressed. I'm like, why
does every freaking hipster look like Sally circ It's driving
(17:07):
me crazy. The white reebox give it up. Well, if
not all that Caroline, it's not all norm core, Okay.
There's also the influence of Silicon Valley. I mean it's
essentially the tech casual wardrobe influence because there is no
more demarcation between between work and life because work is life,
(17:28):
especially if you are in any kind of tech related,
creative related industry whatsoever, or if you're Mark Zuckerberg, or
if you're Mark Zuckerberg. I mean that's the thing. Like,
is Mark Zuckerberg the original ath leisure evangelists. I'm pretty
sure at night when he is going to bed in
hands dips this hoodie, he just has another one underneath.
(17:48):
It's just flannel for like the jama material um. And
this is also reflected in this whole rise of wearable
tech too. Of course we're like strapping things on ourselves
to monitor are our heartbeat and how well we're sleeping
and how many cheetahs we just ate and whatever. And
it's something that g Q talked about an article they wrote,
It's time to start thinking of the clothes you. We're
(18:09):
not as fashion, but as tech. They are intuitive, modular,
and way outside the cubicle tools that keep you moving
on a friction less path forward. So what Mark Zuckerberg
would call a hoodie, right, or or if you make
enough money you can call it a hoodie. I would think. Yeah.
But since we're dressing at least like we are going
(18:30):
to work out, maybe before work or after work, does
this mean that our actual fitness consciousness is rising. We're
going to talk about that when we come right back
from a quick break. So, as we note at the
(18:54):
top of the podcast, a lot of people are at
least dressing like they're going to go to the gym, yeah,
you know, and look cute while they're at the gym.
They could take a selfie at the gym and like
be proud of what they see because they're like matched
and it's you know they're cool zig zags on your
sports bras now, Um, but does that mean we are
actually paying, you know, more attention to our bodies and
(19:16):
exercising more. No, no, not necessarily. At the same time
that all of this athletic apparel sales has been on
the rise in the past five years, we've seen actual
participation in individual racket and team sports falling, and outdoor
water and fitness sports were also flat. That's coming from
(19:37):
Fast Company. We've also got the thing too in terms
of like fashion and body image of like fits bo
being a thing, and like thin and toned being an
ideal versus the nineties like thin and waify. So we
are like striving for a certain image even if we're
not actually working out or playing racquetball. And I was
(19:58):
surprised actually to see those numbers because I live near
a Pure bar, for instance, and every Saturday it is
packed to the gills. And it is also catty corner
to a Lulu Lemon, which is I feel like, very intentional, um.
And also too you you know, we recently heard about
(20:19):
the Soul Cycle I p O where we have this
mega franchise, So I mean I just assumed that, yeah,
we're all working out all the time, right, Not really,
I guess not. I'm buying into it. I'm being duped.
This is the trickery that Don Karen was talking about,
having him boast about. Yeah, she was saying that she
(20:39):
thinks it's dressing the part of fitness, so people will
just assume you're living a fit lifestyle regardless of whether
you actually are. Yeah. And and she, by the way,
is a fashion psychologist, which is an occupation that makes
total sense that it exists. But I did not know
it was a thing. I got a lot of questions
for a fashion psychologists, specifically, what do my overalls really
say about me? Well, I mean, but this isn't a
(21:01):
new thing either. I mean this goes back to your
nineteen twenties tennis whites too, of like, look how much
money I have that I'm able to pay for these
custom fancy clothes. True? Um, And I mean part of
the appeal, obviously too, is the comfort. As someone at
Forbes wrote, comfort is queen with ath leisure clothing, because
(21:22):
I mean, it's an excuse to to really dress as
comfortably as we want. Yet another thing, Kristen, It's Stacy
London would smack down forcefully, because I mean, how many
episodes of What Not to Wear were people She's like,
why are you wearing that? And they're like, well, it's comfortable.
She's shaking her fist at them. But I would be
so curious to know whether Stacy London it proves at
(21:46):
least of the comfort being somewhat fashion forward and well fitting,
unlike someone just wearing, you know, an old T shirt
and sweat. I do wonder. I did wonder, literally, I
really did. I did wonder if stay Cee London and
other like fashion industry type commenting people are changing their
(22:06):
tunes somewhat on athletic apparel and comfortable apparel. What I'm
seeing are the guides now of how to take your
athletiure look from the office to happy hour. So it's
usually wearing like a stretchy pant with a blazer and
heels and and like a wedge yeah, and necklace. And
I mean it's still very expensive. It's not like it's
(22:28):
not like it's easier to dress necessarily and cut to
the chase just by sequin leggings perfect, and then it's
appropriate for all occasions. I'm just imagining how annoying. It
would be for me to hear, just like every time
I walk in my thighs right together, it's just sequin chafing. Kristen,
If you want me to stop wearing my wind suit
(22:49):
to the office, all you have to do is ask.
It's just it's a minor request. But even Vogue is
saying that maybe this is a statement that fashion has
become too fussy, at which point I'm like, well, what
is holy anymore? What is sacred? Yeah? I mean, and
speaking about her Tory Sport new store, Tory Birch told
(23:11):
Vogue quote, it really seemed like a change in the
way women we were dressing. I started to think, how
do we make this stuff chic? Again? What a lot
of sports brands miss? It's femininity unless it's a garish
femininity in the form of exposed body parts and neon colors. Heavens. So,
I mean that's the thing, though, I mean, you have
designers who are basically plucking up, you know, the sweatpants
(23:35):
and remaking them to be chic. Now I'm being reminded
of how Kanye West started leather of sweatpants. But that's
the conversation for another time. Um, But you know what
I mean, Like, it's uh, it's not necessarily that it
might be comfortable, it might be more comfortable, but it's
not necessarily more accessible. Yeah. And I mean for some designers,
(23:58):
not all as we'll talk about just a second, but
for some designers, like, hey, as long as you're still
like visibly feminine, it's okay to wear a sweat pant. Yeah,
I mean. And and the company obviously that made this
their bread and butter straight to the bank is Lulu Lemon,
which was founded by Canadian Chip Wilson in and his intention,
(24:21):
as reported on in The New Yorker, was to set
out to make yoga close stylish enough to wear all day.
And yes, this is the same Chip Wilson who in
December had to step down as Lulu chairman because he
had a had a fat shamy excuse for that little
incident when some of their yoga pants had transparent crotches.
(24:47):
Made your happy babies a little bit r rated. You're
happy babies, happy baby? Yeah, so you it's a yoga post.
You lay on your back and you grab your feet.
I was like, what do you call your for China, Kristen,
not my happy baby, not my Happy Baby Caroline. Well,
Lululemon has seen a sixteen percent growth and sailed overall
(25:11):
despite share price drops after that whole see through Happy
Baby incident. Website sales this year are thirty one percent.
And it's funny that their sizing focuses on feel rather
than body shape. So are the fits. The fits are
named Hugged, Naked, relaxed, tight, and held in. Yes. And
(25:35):
speaking of the hugged, they as of this podcast recording, uh,
they just launched like some new I don't know if
it's a new line or what, but they described these
pants as being engineered to feel like a friend giving
you a close hug. Get off, get off me. I
(25:55):
was like, hey, I'm not a hugger. No, and especially
don't be hugging my legs and my butt would get
out of there. Why why would my friend be hugging
my thighs? So strange. Yeah, that's so strange that it
was circulating on like the fashion in women's blogs being like, uh,
Lulu Lemon, no, thank you. I've been in a Lululemon
(26:16):
once and I went in again. It was the thing
of like, oh, I need some yoga pants, Like this
is great, I'll go in here, and I literally did
the thing where because I can't help myself. Sometimes I
picked up a pair of pants and just started laughing
because they're so expensive. Oh yeah, I can't go in
It's I I cannot afford Lululemon hands down. And then
I had like a seven foot tall man wearing a
(26:38):
man bun who weighed approximately seven pounds look at me
and be like can I help you? And I'm like no,
obviously you can't. And then he started hugging your thighs
and you were like, get me out of here. Um.
But you also see this in companies like Adidas and
Nike taking advantage of this trend. Nike specifically has been
(27:01):
blowing out its athletes are offerings for women, including things
called the arrow React shirt that detects when you're about
to sweat and it'll loosen up a little bit. And
that is kind of cool. It is cool and weird. Um,
but yeah. Nike also their sales were up ten percent
over the year before under armours were up. Nike also
(27:25):
had a really successful hashtag better for It digital campaign
that wood fans with everyday women models instead of professional models,
and they're very optimistic that they're going to keep this
momentum going. They estimate that they can grow their women's
sales by to seven billion dollars. And Nike CEO Mark
(27:47):
Parker is so confident in this that at Women's Innovation
Summit and wait for this innovation friends, he said, quote,
leggings are the new denim, not jaggings, leggings. And so
that's the question. Like some people are saying, like yoga
pants are the new gene or should I say yoga
(28:09):
pants or the new gene? I mean, I know, I
know people I guess who wear leggings all the time
as pants. I'm wearing them right now, Caroline, Well, but
your yours look more. Let's be honest, your legging pants
look more like pants than leggings just because they're stretching.
You're also wearing a blousey shirt. It's a buffalo check.
(28:29):
Your Beyonce would be so proud. Um. I also just
bought a plaid shirt the other day. We should wear
them on the same thing. Yeah, we often do. It's weird. Um,
It's like our plaids are sinking up. Um, But gaps
athleta pants are also nipping at sales of their genes.
According to Forbes. And like I said, I am that
person who has nearly switched over from Gap to Athleta,
(28:52):
mainly because Gap is just not that inspired anymore. I
don't think we've ever talked this much on the podcast
about how we dress. I wonder if listeners are like,
they wear what high top? Who unsubscribed? But the thing
is in the workplace at leisure could become the new
(29:13):
power suit? What shoulder pads? Yes? Uh no, No. This
was something explored in a paper from the Harvard Business
School called the Red Sneakers Effect Inferring status and competence
from signals of non conformity. And basically what these researchers
(29:33):
found was that non conforming behavior such as wearing a
hoodie or a high top in a workplace environment can
signal higher status so long as it's done intentionally. And
this is what they call the red sneaker effect. So
Mark Zuckerberg, for instance, and his trademark hoodie does have
a red sneaker effect because he's like, hey, y'all, I'm
(29:56):
crazy successful and I'm just gonna wear a hoodie to
work because that's what I'm comfortable in. Yeah, it's it's
basically a prerequisite that you must be powerful. I'm confident
this must be coming from a place so I not
only I give no hoots, but also that you have
the status and stature to back it up. It's a
type of conspicuous consumption. The author's right, and it's a
(30:18):
status symbol among Silicon Valley executives well, and they use
the example two of going into a high end store
in say you're yoga pants and sneakers and actually getting
better service because of it, because it looks like, oh,
you just you know, you're just running errands about your day.
You know, it just came from the gym, so it
(30:40):
looks like an intentional kind of thing. Although I'm the opposite.
If I end up going into a store when I'm
fresh from a workout, I don't want anyone to talk
to me. And well, mainly because, as my mother pointed out,
my entire life, if I'm not wearing blusher, I look
a little dead. So I'm sure sales p boll tend
to avoid me because they're like, the zombie apocalypse is
(31:03):
begun and it's and it's wearing ath leisure. I'm just
imagining you with like the clown clown cheet crying and
I apply a wind suit. Um. But I wonder though,
in the real world whether the ath leisurely dressed dude
in the workplace would be judge the same as an
(31:24):
athlete's really dressed woman, or maybe I should put that opposite, like,
like do women would women benefit from that status bump
of dressing down versus dressing up? Because I mean, just
what it made me think of was a contrast between
and this might just be personal style, but the contrast
between Mark Zuckerberg hoodie and Cheryl Sandberg always in like
(31:47):
a very smart dress suit blouse. Well, that actually makes
me think of one particular job that will go and
name too that I used to have, um where extreme
like dedication that some coworkers had to dressing up for
work was more for each other. And I'm speaking of
(32:10):
women specifically, Like yeah, the guys work ties and button
up shirts whatever, but like the women that I worked
around were always like so impeccably dressed. I was not.
I didn't have the status to back up my nonconformity,
but but I was nonconforming. Um, And so I don't
I don't know, because it's more like it seems like
(32:30):
women in the workplace or more dressing up for themselves
and each other. That's true. I catch myself doing that sometimes.
I mean, I do have a desk next to you,
Caroline So, and you're like, how do I top the
wind suit that she wears? Tiny top hat? Done, Holly
of stuff you missed in history class does have a
(32:51):
tiny top hat. But she received from a listener. Oh
and it you can put per few minute. Yeah, handy,
I'll stand by the mailbox. Listeners will be waiting. Although
maybe instead of perfume, if it could just be a
snack power Yeah, yeah, I know you're on my wavelength. Congress,
(33:13):
We've got a couple of things in common. We both
love snacks and wind suits. But back to the wind
suits and gender, there's a question of whether this signals
a fashion move away from binary gender because a lot
of these athleture styles are pretty unisex um. Ruth Laferla,
(33:35):
writing at New York Times, described how Spring Fashion Week
was marked by quote that deliberate erosion on the runways
of a once rigid demarcation between conventionally feminine and masculine clothes. Yeah.
I think they cited Kanye's stuff, right, Yeah, the easy
line is very loose, uh, monochromatic, and would look basically
(34:01):
the same on a guy or a girl. Yeah, so
there seems to be this trend in some sports where
obviously not things like Tory Birch, but in some sports
where that unisex is hit. Basically you're taking the gender
cues out of the merchandizing. Like literally some stores like
Don't Have You know, like this is the women's section
over here, um, and they're leaving it up to just
(34:22):
what the individual shopper wants to where and and to me,
this kind of almost makes sense. It's like when you
think about some of the younger fashion designers today, it's
like they're just art kids, you know, art school kids.
And I'm absolutely not saying that in a dismissive way.
I'm saying this with full love and respect to the like, Yeah,
(34:42):
maybe there's just a wave of younger generation fashion designers
who were like, screw all of your gender norms, and
while we want you to pay for our clothes that
we made, like, screw all of this materialism that circulates
around these gender divisions that we just don't need. Well,
because how often too have we seen men's wear being
(35:03):
slightly recut for women to wear. I mean, I am,
I am essentially wearing men's wear right now. I'm wearing
an oversized buttoned down plaid shirt. My Beyonce actually asked
me Caroline if it was because he has a very similar,
similarly printed button down shirt. Kristen Conger, have you had
(35:24):
your engagement photos made yet? By any chance? I am
waiting for the day when we both walk out in
basically the identical shirt and he will hate it and
I will love it. Now my boyfriend I we both
wear gray V neck T shirts all the time. So yeah,
I mean like it's it's not like I mean, the
demarcation that's been there has basically been imposed by brands
(35:48):
and designers, probably to sell more clothes and also too
depending on the fit, so that will it will fit
out things like our boobs and hips and butts better.
But you're now seeing designers like Baja East and sixty
nine and stores entire stores like Acne and Assembly New
York that are making identical clothes for everybody, but maybe
(36:12):
just cutting them a little bit differently. So again you
can have more of a feminine fit if you want it.
But they also will have unisex sections. Well, so it's
athletes you're freeing us. Are we being liberated, Kristen? Can
we run out in the street and celebrate. I want
to say that we are being liberated, um to a degree,
(36:33):
But it's not like our wallets are being liberated. It's
not like the rules for dressing are going away, because
you still have so many designers telling us the right
way to wear our high tops. Yeah, and I'm still
on Pinterest, like I tell Kristin earlier, like how do
I put now fits together? I don't know? Humans do it?
How do they do it? Yeah? And this also reflects
(36:56):
to something that Amelia Bloomer of bloom or Fame once
said it. She said, quote, the costume of women should
be suited to her wants and necessities. It should conduce
at once to her health, comfort, and usefulness. And while
it should not fail also to conduce to her personal adornment,
it should make that end of secondary importance. So basically like,
(37:17):
let's wear clothes that allow us to live our lives.
And to an extent, I think that at leisure is
a sign of us doing it. But I mean, I
don't want to necessarily say that it's liberating because it's
still this massive industry that people are just grabbing money from,
So you wouldn't say it's like the modern version of
her form dress. I think that. I think yes and no.
(37:40):
I think there's a little bit of that. I think
it's a little too soon to tell, maybe because the
trend it still is new. I do think it's here
to stay for at least a while. But we're going
to swing back to more feminine cuts at some point
because that's how fashion is. That is how fashion is.
I mean, we're always going to want comfortable clothes that
has not changed, that will never change. Um. But you're right,
(38:04):
I think that you would be foolish to think that,
like suddenly, at leisure as a thing is going to
dominate fashion from here on out, forever and ever, and
then we're going to start wearing just like snuggies to
work every day, although our office is cold enough that
I wouldn't mind one. But I do think that it
is a shift away from dressing for male gaze to
(38:28):
dressing actually for more of a female gaze, because what
I see now in the way a girl's dressed, like
you said, in the case of your old co workers,
it's more to delight their girlfriends than to hunt for boyfriends.
And that means something different to different people. For that
particular group of women, the status and the being pleasing
(38:50):
to the eye and all of that stuff revolved around
a very certain set of clothes that were more on
like the pencil skirt end of the spectrum. And that's fine,
and they looked all they looked amazing. But I'm sure
for another group of women at a different workplace where
there wasn't a dress code or as strict of address code. Um,
maybe not a snuggy workplace, but it would be different.
(39:11):
That would mean something different to those women. Yeah, I
mean the shift away from just overt sexiness and the
way that we usually think of it is interesting. And
this reminds me that, uh, one of my best friends
and my sister and I now all have the exact
same pair of Nike high tops and I love it.
(39:32):
It's like a little club. Yeah, well I love my
A six Caroline. No, No, they aren't Nike high tops. No,
how is it's Tiger? Is it on? Its supa? I
don't even know. I can't actually read. It's a real embarrassing.
I do like your a six. Well, now, what do
we want to know from listeners about Ethlet you share, Caroline,
do you wear it? Have you been shamed for it?
(39:56):
Do you feel less shamed for it recently? Yeah? My
plan is to take full advantage of the trend because
also I'm a tall woman and I appreciate being quote
unquote allowed to wear flats out if I want to.
I used to catch flak for more fashionable friends of
mine for not wearing heels all the time, partially because
(40:18):
I did not want to be six two and towering
over everyone else. Which time and place, it's great, Yes,
um so I like that. I like the comfort element.
Winter is coming, I can wear my sweatshirts. You're right,
game of trends is about to come back, that's true.
Um so yeah, I think I'm I'm kind of full
throttle at leisure, but to a limit. I'm not going
(40:40):
to buy any pearl encrusted sneakers or anything like that.
I'll return just you wait, Sally might get you son, Caroline.
I wouldn't be suppressed, but I am curious to know
from listeners to if it feels like we're dressing ourselves,
especially as women in a more US centric kind of
(41:01):
way dressing for ourselves rather than especially to be sexy ladies.
I mean, I'm sure part of it is dressing for ourselves.
And I love wearing that sweatshirt thing because it's so
soft and comfy and I can dress it mostly down. Uh,
But so much of it too is just people being like, oh,
this is a thing. Now I'm going to do this.
(41:23):
Just like anything with fashion, there's gonna be people too
when super like feminine, close cut fitted outfits come back
around that are going to be like, oh, thank thank goodness,
I can be myself because everybody has a thing. Yeah.
I mean that's the one thing we definitely did not
get into is how you know body types with ath leisure, Like,
I don't know that it is a trend for every body.
(41:46):
It does seem to be promoting a very specific beauty
ideal that is that more fits bo soul cycle, muscular.
But sure, and I mean I think it's just fashion
catching up to some people and leaving behind others. Mean,
I've worn I've had those a six forever, Like I've
always worn sneakers with jeans and stuff like that, um
(42:07):
into power suits and and my power suits. I mean
so many shoulder pads in my yoga clothes. Yeah, it's
just for you know, shoulder stand extra padding. Well, listeners,
send us your thoughts mom Stuff at house Stuff works
dot Com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And
we've got a couple of messages to share with you.
(42:28):
And we come right back from a quick break, Caroline.
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Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage
and type in stuff that's stamps dot com enter stuff
and now back to the show. Well, we have a
(43:32):
couple of letters here about our waitressing episode. This one's
from Jackie. She says, thank you for your podcast about
waitress thing. I am an actor slash actress and I
was on my supplementary job hunt again today. I kept
on wrestling with myself to apply as a server, to
go into places where the big tips are made and
get a quick cash kind of job. But it made
me feel a bit sad and sick. I couldn't really
(43:54):
explain it to myself. Sexism was on my mind, and
as I bicycled around Toronto, I felt so trapped by
the idealism of what I should be doing and the
reality I was faced with. The norm for someone in
my situation would be to make big tips at night
and audition for TV during the day. I thought of
my old hosting hostessing job at a fancy French restaurant
where the uniform included red lipstick and flowing black skirts.
(44:18):
I had to justify to myself why I had needed
to quit. It took me time to remember how inadequate
and fake I had felt flirting with a wealthy clientele,
and how I flushed red when my boss called women girls.
We were trained to be craft like in our positions
and told that we would move up to be servers
or ten bar. We were very good at our jobs
and used our beautiful personalities. That's in quotes with success.
(44:40):
I only saw men tend the bar, and then I
saw newly employed men on bar, and none of us
girls hostessing were ever invited to be servers. The server
assistance were all men bus boys. The men employed by
the restaurant were on average tend to fifteen years older
than the women slash girls. The job wasn't unbearable in
its function, but the system made me uncomfortable. It was
great to listen to your podcast. It helps me make
(45:02):
sense of things when I can understand my perceptions in
context with history and culture. The serving industry has been
something which seems so defined in a system that has
remained so the same. I loved hearing about how the
stems of its culture in North America are from the
wild West. Thank you for your research and conversation, and
thank you for your letter. Jackie Well. I've got a
(45:23):
letter here from Kelly and she writes, I loved the
waitressing episode. I never thought about the history behind waitressing,
so I found a lot of this fascinating. Nor did
I realize that there's so much controversy about the different
aspects of waitressing. One thing that definitely stuck out to
me was how people look down on waitresses. When I
was a freshman in college and my roommate was looking
(45:43):
for a job, her parents wouldn't let her get a
job as a waitress because they saw that as beneath
her as someone who had only worked in a restaurant.
I was shocked. A friend of mine chose not to
go to college and was waitressing part time at a
different restaurant than the one I worked in. Because it
was small, she could easily be the only waitress working
and would earn quite a bit and tips. As time
(46:03):
went on, people began to ask her how long she
was going to work as a waitress. Feeling the negativity,
she began working as a secretary in a doctor's office.
She told me later that while it was nice to
dress up for work, she wasn't making as much money
in the office as she did as a waitress. The
restaurant I worked at was not high end, but a
busy tourist location, and on a good night, waitresses could
take home several hundred dollars on summer nights. As far
(46:26):
as harassment, even though I was never a waitress, I
was still told to smile, mostly by older men, which
was incredibly creepy. I look young for my age, so
that was frequently a question. Probably the worst interaction I
had with a mail customer was when he asked me,
does your boyfriend think you're cute? I responded, I don't
have a boyfriend, and then he wondered, well, what's wrong
(46:47):
with you? I think I asked him how it was
my fault, but I've never forgiven an awful question. I
hope to not need to waitress in my life or
cater anymore weddings, but if I need to, I certainly
wouldn't mind. And all those years only instilled in me
how hard it can be to work in a restaurant
and that things sometimes just go wrong, and I've become
much more understanding about things that happen when I go
(47:09):
out to eat. So thanks Kelly, and thanks to all
of the present and past servers that we've been hearing from.
Your stories have been rolling in and we appreciate them.
We appreciate all of your letters Mom, Stuff and how
stuff Works dot Com is where you can send them
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including
this one with links to our sources. So you can
(47:31):
learn more about at leisure. Head on over to stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for moralns and thousands
of other topics. Does it How stuff Works dot com
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to
works not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline. I feel like I
should be wearing my high tops and my favorite striped
(00:23):
sweatshirt for this episode. Yeah, I should totally be in
my Is it Athleta the brand? Yeah? Yes, I should
be wearing my fancy athlete A sweatshirt. It's it's sweatshirt material.
It's very soft, but it has like an asymmetrical front,
so it's snazzy. I didn't realize. I went into athlete
at one time looking for sports bras, and as I
(00:45):
was walking around, I was like, whoa, they have clothes
like that I can wear outside and not have it
look like I'm just walking around in gym clothes. Yeah.
Athleta is a division of Gap, and They're clothes are
becoming more successful than Gaps I know. Well as about leisure, Yeah,
(01:06):
well Gap did just hire a new creative director. I
think so maybe they'll come stage to come back perhaps,
But can anything be as comfortable as that sweatshirt? I
submit to you that it cannot. Yeah, I am wearing
these pants that are kind of as close to yoga
pants as I could get wearing to the office. They're
like a thicker yoga pants, but I got a zip
(01:28):
in the back, y'all a little stretch. Yeah, they also
still feel slightly inappropriate for the office. But my gosh,
all of this spandex is just so comfortable. It's like
I'm not wearing pants at all, which is actually like
my nightmare about I've had that dream about myself. Not
you good good, Um. But we're talking about our high tops,
(01:53):
which I do own, and I do love them. They're
so warm. They're like ugs, but like better, you know,
because they keep more socially acceptable a little bit at
this point, Um, and all of our comfortable clothes because,
as you probably guess from the title of this podcast episode,
we're talking about the ath leisure trend because it's here
(02:15):
to stay. And I argue that it says a lot
about perhaps where we are workplace culture is and some
some gender workplace and out of workplace culture. Wise, I
would say that it says a lot about the fact
that work life balance doesn't really it's not a thing anymore.
(02:36):
People talk about work life balance from a very like
eighties and nineties perspective, but in our changing economy, Kristen,
especially as we get more fancy tech companies that let
you bring your dog to work, that's not us by
the way. Uh, there's really no line between life and
work anymore. Yeah. And on the gendered side of it too,
(02:59):
it it's really not dressing for a male gaze. Like
wearing my high tops and sweatshirt. I am not turning
heads except other girls heads to be like, where did
you get them? High tops? Those are cute? It looks
so comfortable, sensible, and so it's it's really interesting to
think of high fashion now um, really colliding with what
(03:21):
was more of the lure fashion. But first, let's talk
about at leisure. What is this thing at leisure? This
portmanteau of athletic. It's like benefits leisure. Beneferis Ben and Jennifer.
Who was that? First it was been Athleck and j
Lo and then rest in peace Jennifer Garner. She's not dead.
(03:44):
I just mean they're getting a divorce, Caroline. Yeah, rest
in peace to that marriage. Sorry, back to sweatpants. Yeah.
At leisure is basically the concept of dressing for the gym.
If you want to be really cute when you go
to a gym, but actually going to the gym is
so optional. Yeah, oh, trust me, I have there have
(04:07):
been days where I'm like, you know, I've been cleaning
my apartment all day. I really need to go to
the grocery store, but I am gross looking, and I'm
not wearing makeup and I'm not about to put makeup on.
How can I go to the grocery store looking like
this and have it be socially acceptable? I know this
has literally happened more than once. Often I will put
on I'll change out of my like gross cleaning clothes
(04:31):
and put on like cuter yoga specific clothes and tennis
shoes and socks and be like, see, I just I
just came from the gym. Maybe at leisure it works
on so many levels. Um Vogue reported in October that
roughly half of the people buying activewear these days, so
(04:53):
you yoga pants and sports bra, zias and such, they're
buying it for non active use, such as go into
the grocery store. Yeah, everything that Stacy London would preach against.
I know. Oh Stacy London, where are you? We have
so many questions for you? Do you have so many
questions mostly about the singular pant. Yeah, the sweat pant,
(05:15):
yoga pant, Yes, pant. But I loved this. So Women's
Health noted that in yoga participation was up four point
five percent, not must day, but yoga, where sales were
up percent. We have a whole wardrobe. And I will confess, Caroline,
that I am consistently one of the worst dressed in
(05:37):
yoga because I cannot. I just don't have the disposal
income to buy all sorts of things. And I you know,
I probably should buy newer sports bras, but it's all
like I am in like pattered rags. Comparatively Cinderella. Yeah,
do these these women who come in with very cute ensembles.
That's the same way I my whether I'm doing yoga
(05:59):
or running or whatever, my uniform is T shirt probably
from some event that I went to and kneel link
yoga pants and sneakers, um, and so I am also
I basically I don't look like I'm a professional yoga doer.
Speaking though, of T shirts, Caroline, I don't know about you,
but one of my favorites to wear in yoga class
(06:21):
or working out is my w W g D T shirt,
which is what would Glory do. Gloria's dynam it makes
me feel empowered a little bit. Well, I'm working out,
you know, Kristen. One of my favorite shirts to work
out in is the Hey Lady's shirt featuring none other
than yours truly and also yours truly pointing at you,
that you can buy on our spreadshirt store. Do people
(06:44):
ever do double takes when they notice that you're wearing
your face on your your boobs? No? No, because I
guess it's a cartoon rendering, so so it's not as
clear it's our caricature faces. We both have giant Moses
and jims unrecognizable. Um. Well, back to at leisure? Can
(07:07):
we just talk about our faces on shirts for another
half hour? Um? Back to at leisure. Though there were
lots of different terms for it before the industry kind
of begrudgingly settled on at leisure. It's been called performance lifestyle.
The Wall Street Journal called it convertible dressing, and my favorite,
(07:29):
some bloggers tried to call it the cozy boy movement
for guys, and g Q also tried to make sports
core happen. But no, no, no, no leisure. I'm sure
the people who call it sports Core also go to
CVS and buy the shower poof that's made specifically for men,
which is like a dollar cheaper than the regular shower poofs.
(07:52):
I'm not mad sports Core. I did post about it
on my Instagram though. Um, but it's not like this
is cheap. It's not like thing out of mainstream fashion
and wearing your yoga pants to be sports core is
a cheaper lifestyle. All you have to do for evidence
is visit Tory Birch's athletes are offshoot called Tory Sport
for avant and opre sport clothes. I love that. I
(08:17):
did not see the price, but saw that it offers
some pearl encrusted sneakers. I can't believe my mother hasn't
tried to make me buy those yet. Oh maybe I'll
drop a little friendly hint for the holidays. Kelly, don't
answer the phone and Kristen calls um, and we are
buying this stuff up like hotcakes. Forbes magazine recently reported
(08:41):
that US consumers spent three billion dollars on apparel, footwear,
and accessories in which is only up one percent from
the previous year, But that one percent is a two
billion dollars worth one percent, so nothing to sneeze at,
and that money has only grown since. Well, I was
(09:05):
interested to see that this. I just figured the word
ath leisure, and the concept was new relatively if anything
ever knew anymore, Caral, I'm figuring out that it's not.
I thought it was really interesting that Miriam Webster actually
traced the first use of the potmanteau ath leisure to
(09:26):
a nineteen seventy nine issue of Nation's Business. In that article,
John Gibauer, who was the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association's director
of Advertising and Promotion at the time, said the booming
popularity of fitness has given birth to a similar boom
in apparel and footwear design for those who actually participate
in sports and those who just want to look as
(09:48):
if they do. The whole ath leisure, a new term
that's popped up market, is in a state of tremendous growth.
So the more things change, Christen, the more things change,
the more things change, the more we just revert to sweatsuits. Yeah, well,
at least we're not doing that. We I mean collectively,
and this is idealistic, but at least we're not doing
(10:09):
the whole juicy on the butt thing anymore, right, please?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that trend that was a high
school era trend for us where I remember my mother
was outrage at the idea of young women wearing slogans
on their behind. Well, I just I just think that
(10:29):
wearing like a pink terry cloth jumpsuit is none too flattering.
I had some of those terry cloth pants caroline nothing
on the butt, but they were an unfortunate shade of orange.
But we've definitely seen this fashion trend even before nineteen
seventy nine, this whole interplay of of how do we
(10:50):
blend our sporting life with our everyday life life. And
Britt Peterson broke this down in a fantastic Austin Globe
column where she notes that sporting specific clothes first appeared
in the Middle Ages, with things like gauntlets for falconry
and writing boots for writing things. Um, and there were
(11:14):
status symbols, not surprisingly because if you could afford to
not only have time to have these hobbies and then
also have these special things that you would wear while
doing them, that takes some money, I mean, and falconry
just period. I mean, the cost of entry is astonishing.
Now I wear my sports falcon everywhere. Yes, Um, what's
(11:36):
your sports falcon's name? Jim, Jim, Yeah, oh Jim. But
as we see sports develop as a thing like team
sports start to develop, custom athletic where evolves along with it,
and specifically though for the aristocratic among us, because it's
signals that you have time to play sports and that
you have the money to invest in what at the time,
(11:57):
we're often custom out fits. I mean, think about it.
In the late nineteenth century, you're seeing this boom in cycling,
in tennis, and for tennis, Oh God help you if
you're not wearing your adorable tennis whites. Yeah. And and
women need to move around to do both of these things, um.
And there is a growing aversion to wearing corsets and
(12:18):
more restrictive clothing as a result of that. So you
see the rise of sporting dresses and of course Bloomers,
which we've mentioned it's so often on the podcast. Um
Peterson though in The Boston Globe described Bloomers as quote
the yoga pants of the eighteen nineties, which that alone
(12:39):
justifies us doing this episode. If we can link Amelia
Bloomer and reform dressed and first wave feminism to yoga
pants today perfect and Amelia Bloomers sentiments about the need
for this bifurcated garment um. And in case you aren't
familiar with Bloomers, they are so a midcalf hammer pants,
(13:02):
and they're like hammer pants, but you would wear still
a skirt over them, but it would be a shorter skirt,
more knee length or midcalf, because come on, the lots
of room to let your knees breathe. Yes, yes, but
we're still ladies. But Bloomer said around eighteen fifty quote
as soon as it became known that I was wearing
the new dress, letters came pouring in upon me by
(13:23):
the hundreds from women all over the country, making inquiries
about the dress and asking for patterns, showing how ready
and anxious women were to throw off the burden of long,
heavy skirts. And to me, that's so echoes the ath
leisure relief of saying, oh, I can wear hi tops
to the office or out to dinner if I want
(13:46):
to instead of heels. Fantastic. Let us throw off our
burdensome garments and put on a sports bra. And we
moved into the twentieth century sports and leisure because more
fashionable with help from people like Coco Chanel and other
famous designers who reinvented sportswear, which is not just sportswear.
(14:11):
It could be activewear that you're wearing to be active
and do active things. It could be passive and that
you are a spectator of something active, or it could
just mean that you're flitting about town or driving out
to the country to to look at your horses. Yeah,
sportswear is not really not like running shoes and shorts.
(14:32):
It's more like a Michael Core's ensembles. I never I
never understood that as someone who's consumed women's magazines my
entire life. Basically like seeing pictures of like the Spring
sports where I'm like, they're wearing blazers. You can't play
sports in that you can't play bad men in a blazer. Um.
(14:54):
But speaking of bloomers, it is just a degree of
separation away from at leisure. Again, I clearly I'm very
obsessed with this link between nineteenth century bloomers and my
yoga classes today because they were actually between the two
um yoga bloomers. It's just like fun fact I was
trying to find the origin of yoga pants, because obviously
(15:20):
yogi's of old did not wear Lulu women yoga pants
for any kind of like spandex garment um. In the
nineteen seventies though apparently, uh yogis in the US usually
wore T shirts and yoga bloomers which kind of look
like oversized diapers their shorts. But the hem is gathered
(15:41):
so that when you are doing your poses, you are
not exposing your genitals to the rest of the class.
Just just a considerate thing. Although I mean, like a
lot of yogi's will you know, if you're like really
hardcore about it, you'll do that naked. Um. But well,
I think it's funny then though that the l A
(16:01):
Times read about in that the quote once disparate worlds
of fashion and athletics have been on a convergence course
because it's obviously not news. It's obviously been happening since
Amelia Bluemer exactly. Um, but why though, but why now,
why are we all essentially wearing yoga pants all of
(16:24):
the time. Well, it took off in just to give
you a sense of like how quickly this happened, and
you did have like a lot of celebrity lead collaborations
like uh, Alexander wag and h and M Beyonce and
top shops. So at least it was brought to the masses.
(16:44):
But there obviously were some some background factors to this.
First of all, in early we had norm core becoming
mainstream that I'm sorry that hit too close to home
because that is how my mother dressed. I'm like, why
does every freaking hipster look like Sally circ It's driving
(17:07):
me crazy. The white reebox give it up. Well, if
not all that Caroline, it's not all norm core, Okay.
There's also the influence of Silicon Valley. I mean it's
essentially the tech casual wardrobe influence because there is no
more demarcation between between work and life because work is life,
(17:28):
especially if you are in any kind of tech related,
creative related industry whatsoever, or if you're Mark Zuckerberg, or
if you're Mark Zuckerberg. I mean that's the thing. Like,
is Mark Zuckerberg the original ath leisure evangelists. I'm pretty
sure at night when he is going to bed in
hands dips this hoodie, he just has another one underneath.
(17:48):
It's just flannel for like the jama material um. And
this is also reflected in this whole rise of wearable
tech too. Of course we're like strapping things on ourselves
to monitor are our heartbeat and how well we're sleeping
and how many cheetahs we just ate and whatever. And
it's something that g Q talked about an article they wrote,
It's time to start thinking of the clothes you. We're
(18:09):
not as fashion, but as tech. They are intuitive, modular,
and way outside the cubicle tools that keep you moving
on a friction less path forward. So what Mark Zuckerberg
would call a hoodie, right, or or if you make
enough money you can call it a hoodie. I would think. Yeah.
But since we're dressing at least like we are going
(18:30):
to work out, maybe before work or after work, does
this mean that our actual fitness consciousness is rising. We're
going to talk about that when we come right back
from a quick break. So, as we note at the
(18:54):
top of the podcast, a lot of people are at
least dressing like they're going to go to the gym, yeah,
you know, and look cute while they're at the gym.
They could take a selfie at the gym and like
be proud of what they see because they're like matched
and it's you know they're cool zig zags on your
sports bras now, Um, but does that mean we are
actually paying, you know, more attention to our bodies and
(19:16):
exercising more. No, no, not necessarily. At the same time
that all of this athletic apparel sales has been on
the rise in the past five years, we've seen actual
participation in individual racket and team sports falling, and outdoor
water and fitness sports were also flat. That's coming from
(19:37):
Fast Company. We've also got the thing too in terms
of like fashion and body image of like fits bo
being a thing, and like thin and toned being an
ideal versus the nineties like thin and waify. So we
are like striving for a certain image even if we're
not actually working out or playing racquetball. And I was
(19:58):
surprised actually to see those numbers because I live near
a Pure bar, for instance, and every Saturday it is
packed to the gills. And it is also catty corner
to a Lulu Lemon, which is I feel like, very intentional, um.
And also too you you know, we recently heard about
(20:19):
the Soul Cycle I p O where we have this
mega franchise, So I mean I just assumed that, yeah,
we're all working out all the time, right, Not really,
I guess not. I'm buying into it. I'm being duped.
This is the trickery that Don Karen was talking about,
having him boast about. Yeah, she was saying that she
(20:39):
thinks it's dressing the part of fitness, so people will
just assume you're living a fit lifestyle regardless of whether
you actually are. Yeah. And and she, by the way,
is a fashion psychologist, which is an occupation that makes
total sense that it exists. But I did not know
it was a thing. I got a lot of questions
for a fashion psychologists, specifically, what do my overalls really
say about me? Well, I mean, but this isn't a
(21:01):
new thing either. I mean this goes back to your
nineteen twenties tennis whites too, of like, look how much
money I have that I'm able to pay for these
custom fancy clothes. True? Um, And I mean part of
the appeal, obviously too, is the comfort. As someone at
Forbes wrote, comfort is queen with ath leisure clothing, because
(21:22):
I mean, it's an excuse to to really dress as
comfortably as we want. Yet another thing, Kristen, It's Stacy
London would smack down forcefully, because I mean, how many
episodes of What Not to Wear were people She's like,
why are you wearing that? And they're like, well, it's comfortable.
She's shaking her fist at them. But I would be
so curious to know whether Stacy London it proves at
(21:46):
least of the comfort being somewhat fashion forward and well fitting,
unlike someone just wearing, you know, an old T shirt
and sweat. I do wonder. I did wonder, literally, I
really did. I did wonder if stay Cee London and
other like fashion industry type commenting people are changing their
(22:06):
tunes somewhat on athletic apparel and comfortable apparel. What I'm
seeing are the guides now of how to take your
athletiure look from the office to happy hour. So it's
usually wearing like a stretchy pant with a blazer and
heels and and like a wedge yeah, and necklace. And
I mean it's still very expensive. It's not like it's
(22:28):
not like it's easier to dress necessarily and cut to
the chase just by sequin leggings perfect, and then it's
appropriate for all occasions. I'm just imagining how annoying. It
would be for me to hear, just like every time
I walk in my thighs right together, it's just sequin chafing. Kristen,
If you want me to stop wearing my wind suit
(22:49):
to the office, all you have to do is ask.
It's just it's a minor request. But even Vogue is
saying that maybe this is a statement that fashion has
become too fussy, at which point I'm like, well, what
is holy anymore? What is sacred? Yeah? I mean, and
speaking about her Tory Sport new store, Tory Birch told
(23:11):
Vogue quote, it really seemed like a change in the
way women we were dressing. I started to think, how
do we make this stuff chic? Again? What a lot
of sports brands miss? It's femininity unless it's a garish
femininity in the form of exposed body parts and neon colors. Heavens. So,
I mean that's the thing, though, I mean, you have
designers who are basically plucking up, you know, the sweatpants
(23:35):
and remaking them to be chic. Now I'm being reminded
of how Kanye West started leather of sweatpants. But that's
the conversation for another time. Um, But you know what
I mean, Like, it's uh, it's not necessarily that it
might be comfortable, it might be more comfortable, but it's
not necessarily more accessible. Yeah. And I mean for some designers,
(23:58):
not all as we'll talk about just a second, but
for some designers, like, hey, as long as you're still
like visibly feminine, it's okay to wear a sweat pant. Yeah,
I mean. And and the company obviously that made this
their bread and butter straight to the bank is Lulu Lemon,
which was founded by Canadian Chip Wilson in and his intention,
(24:21):
as reported on in The New Yorker, was to set
out to make yoga close stylish enough to wear all day.
And yes, this is the same Chip Wilson who in
December had to step down as Lulu chairman because he
had a had a fat shamy excuse for that little
incident when some of their yoga pants had transparent crotches.
(24:47):
Made your happy babies a little bit r rated. You're
happy babies, happy baby? Yeah, so you it's a yoga post.
You lay on your back and you grab your feet.
I was like, what do you call your for China, Kristen,
not my happy baby, not my Happy Baby Caroline. Well,
Lululemon has seen a sixteen percent growth and sailed overall
(25:11):
despite share price drops after that whole see through Happy
Baby incident. Website sales this year are thirty one percent.
And it's funny that their sizing focuses on feel rather
than body shape. So are the fits. The fits are
named Hugged, Naked, relaxed, tight, and held in. Yes. And
(25:35):
speaking of the hugged, they as of this podcast recording, uh,
they just launched like some new I don't know if
it's a new line or what, but they described these
pants as being engineered to feel like a friend giving
you a close hug. Get off, get off me. I
(25:55):
was like, hey, I'm not a hugger. No, and especially
don't be hugging my legs and my butt would get
out of there. Why why would my friend be hugging
my thighs? So strange. Yeah, that's so strange that it
was circulating on like the fashion in women's blogs being like, uh,
Lulu Lemon, no, thank you. I've been in a Lululemon
(26:16):
once and I went in again. It was the thing
of like, oh, I need some yoga pants, Like this
is great, I'll go in here, and I literally did
the thing where because I can't help myself. Sometimes I
picked up a pair of pants and just started laughing
because they're so expensive. Oh yeah, I can't go in
It's I I cannot afford Lululemon hands down. And then
I had like a seven foot tall man wearing a
(26:38):
man bun who weighed approximately seven pounds look at me
and be like can I help you? And I'm like no,
obviously you can't. And then he started hugging your thighs
and you were like, get me out of here. Um.
But you also see this in companies like Adidas and
Nike taking advantage of this trend. Nike specifically has been
(27:01):
blowing out its athletes are offerings for women, including things
called the arrow React shirt that detects when you're about
to sweat and it'll loosen up a little bit. And
that is kind of cool. It is cool and weird. Um,
but yeah. Nike also their sales were up ten percent
over the year before under armours were up. Nike also
(27:25):
had a really successful hashtag better for It digital campaign
that wood fans with everyday women models instead of professional models,
and they're very optimistic that they're going to keep this
momentum going. They estimate that they can grow their women's
sales by to seven billion dollars. And Nike CEO Mark
(27:47):
Parker is so confident in this that at Women's Innovation
Summit and wait for this innovation friends, he said, quote,
leggings are the new denim, not jaggings, leggings. And so
that's the question. Like some people are saying, like yoga
pants are the new gene or should I say yoga
(28:09):
pants or the new gene? I mean, I know, I
know people I guess who wear leggings all the time
as pants. I'm wearing them right now, Caroline, Well, but
your yours look more. Let's be honest, your legging pants
look more like pants than leggings just because they're stretching.
You're also wearing a blousey shirt. It's a buffalo check.
(28:29):
Your Beyonce would be so proud. Um. I also just
bought a plaid shirt the other day. We should wear
them on the same thing. Yeah, we often do. It's weird. Um,
It's like our plaids are sinking up. Um, But gaps
athleta pants are also nipping at sales of their genes.
According to Forbes. And like I said, I am that
person who has nearly switched over from Gap to Athleta,
(28:52):
mainly because Gap is just not that inspired anymore. I
don't think we've ever talked this much on the podcast
about how we dress. I wonder if listeners are like,
they wear what high top? Who unsubscribed? But the thing
is in the workplace at leisure could become the new
(29:13):
power suit? What shoulder pads? Yes? Uh no, No. This
was something explored in a paper from the Harvard Business
School called the Red Sneakers Effect Inferring status and competence
from signals of non conformity. And basically what these researchers
(29:33):
found was that non conforming behavior such as wearing a
hoodie or a high top in a workplace environment can
signal higher status so long as it's done intentionally. And
this is what they call the red sneaker effect. So
Mark Zuckerberg, for instance, and his trademark hoodie does have
a red sneaker effect because he's like, hey, y'all, I'm
(29:56):
crazy successful and I'm just gonna wear a hoodie to
work because that's what I'm comfortable in. Yeah, it's it's
basically a prerequisite that you must be powerful. I'm confident
this must be coming from a place so I not
only I give no hoots, but also that you have
the status and stature to back it up. It's a
type of conspicuous consumption. The author's right, and it's a
(30:18):
status symbol among Silicon Valley executives well, and they use
the example two of going into a high end store
in say you're yoga pants and sneakers and actually getting
better service because of it, because it looks like, oh,
you just you know, you're just running errands about your day.
You know, it just came from the gym, so it
(30:40):
looks like an intentional kind of thing. Although I'm the opposite.
If I end up going into a store when I'm
fresh from a workout, I don't want anyone to talk
to me. And well, mainly because, as my mother pointed out,
my entire life, if I'm not wearing blusher, I look
a little dead. So I'm sure sales p boll tend
to avoid me because they're like, the zombie apocalypse is
(31:03):
begun and it's and it's wearing ath leisure. I'm just
imagining you with like the clown clown cheet crying and
I apply a wind suit. Um. But I wonder though,
in the real world whether the ath leisurely dressed dude
in the workplace would be judge the same as an
(31:24):
athlete's really dressed woman, or maybe I should put that opposite, like,
like do women would women benefit from that status bump
of dressing down versus dressing up? Because I mean, just
what it made me think of was a contrast between
and this might just be personal style, but the contrast
between Mark Zuckerberg hoodie and Cheryl Sandberg always in like
(31:47):
a very smart dress suit blouse. Well, that actually makes
me think of one particular job that will go and
name too that I used to have, um where extreme
like dedication that some coworkers had to dressing up for
work was more for each other. And I'm speaking of
(32:10):
women specifically, Like yeah, the guys work ties and button
up shirts whatever, but like the women that I worked
around were always like so impeccably dressed. I was not.
I didn't have the status to back up my nonconformity,
but but I was nonconforming. Um, And so I don't
I don't know, because it's more like it seems like
(32:30):
women in the workplace or more dressing up for themselves
and each other. That's true. I catch myself doing that sometimes.
I mean, I do have a desk next to you,
Caroline So, and you're like, how do I top the
wind suit that she wears? Tiny top hat? Done, Holly
of stuff you missed in history class does have a
(32:51):
tiny top hat. But she received from a listener. Oh
and it you can put per few minute. Yeah, handy,
I'll stand by the mailbox. Listeners will be waiting. Although
maybe instead of perfume, if it could just be a
snack power Yeah, yeah, I know you're on my wavelength. Congress,
(33:13):
We've got a couple of things in common. We both
love snacks and wind suits. But back to the wind
suits and gender, there's a question of whether this signals
a fashion move away from binary gender because a lot
of these athleture styles are pretty unisex um. Ruth Laferla,
(33:35):
writing at New York Times, described how Spring Fashion Week
was marked by quote that deliberate erosion on the runways
of a once rigid demarcation between conventionally feminine and masculine clothes. Yeah.
I think they cited Kanye's stuff, right, Yeah, the easy
line is very loose, uh, monochromatic, and would look basically
(34:01):
the same on a guy or a girl. Yeah, so
there seems to be this trend in some sports where
obviously not things like Tory Birch, but in some sports
where that unisex is hit. Basically you're taking the gender
cues out of the merchandizing. Like literally some stores like
Don't Have You know, like this is the women's section
over here, um, and they're leaving it up to just
(34:22):
what the individual shopper wants to where and and to me,
this kind of almost makes sense. It's like when you
think about some of the younger fashion designers today, it's
like they're just art kids, you know, art school kids.
And I'm absolutely not saying that in a dismissive way.
I'm saying this with full love and respect to the like, Yeah,
(34:42):
maybe there's just a wave of younger generation fashion designers
who were like, screw all of your gender norms, and
while we want you to pay for our clothes that
we made, like, screw all of this materialism that circulates
around these gender divisions that we just don't need. Well,
because how often too have we seen men's wear being
(35:03):
slightly recut for women to wear. I mean, I am,
I am essentially wearing men's wear right now. I'm wearing
an oversized buttoned down plaid shirt. My Beyonce actually asked
me Caroline if it was because he has a very similar,
similarly printed button down shirt. Kristen Conger, have you had
(35:24):
your engagement photos made yet? By any chance? I am
waiting for the day when we both walk out in
basically the identical shirt and he will hate it and
I will love it. Now my boyfriend I we both
wear gray V neck T shirts all the time. So yeah,
I mean like it's it's not like I mean, the
demarcation that's been there has basically been imposed by brands
(35:48):
and designers, probably to sell more clothes and also too
depending on the fit, so that will it will fit
out things like our boobs and hips and butts better.
But you're now seeing designers like Baja East and sixty
nine and stores entire stores like Acne and Assembly New
York that are making identical clothes for everybody, but maybe
(36:12):
just cutting them a little bit differently. So again you
can have more of a feminine fit if you want it.
But they also will have unisex sections. Well, so it's
athletes you're freeing us. Are we being liberated, Kristen? Can
we run out in the street and celebrate. I want
to say that we are being liberated, um to a degree,
(36:33):
But it's not like our wallets are being liberated. It's
not like the rules for dressing are going away, because
you still have so many designers telling us the right
way to wear our high tops. Yeah, and I'm still
on Pinterest, like I tell Kristin earlier, like how do
I put now fits together? I don't know? Humans do it?
How do they do it? Yeah? And this also reflects
(36:56):
to something that Amelia Bloomer of bloom or Fame once
said it. She said, quote, the costume of women should
be suited to her wants and necessities. It should conduce
at once to her health, comfort, and usefulness. And while
it should not fail also to conduce to her personal adornment,
it should make that end of secondary importance. So basically like,
(37:17):
let's wear clothes that allow us to live our lives.
And to an extent, I think that at leisure is
a sign of us doing it. But I mean, I
don't want to necessarily say that it's liberating because it's
still this massive industry that people are just grabbing money from,
So you wouldn't say it's like the modern version of
her form dress. I think that. I think yes and no.
(37:40):
I think there's a little bit of that. I think
it's a little too soon to tell, maybe because the
trend it still is new. I do think it's here
to stay for at least a while. But we're going
to swing back to more feminine cuts at some point
because that's how fashion is. That is how fashion is.
I mean, we're always going to want comfortable clothes that
has not changed, that will never change. Um. But you're right,
(38:04):
I think that you would be foolish to think that,
like suddenly, at leisure as a thing is going to
dominate fashion from here on out, forever and ever, and
then we're going to start wearing just like snuggies to
work every day, although our office is cold enough that
I wouldn't mind one. But I do think that it
is a shift away from dressing for male gaze to
(38:28):
dressing actually for more of a female gaze, because what
I see now in the way a girl's dressed, like
you said, in the case of your old co workers,
it's more to delight their girlfriends than to hunt for boyfriends.
And that means something different to different people. For that
particular group of women, the status and the being pleasing
(38:50):
to the eye and all of that stuff revolved around
a very certain set of clothes that were more on
like the pencil skirt end of the spectrum. And that's fine,
and they looked all they looked amazing. But I'm sure
for another group of women at a different workplace where
there wasn't a dress code or as strict of address code. Um,
maybe not a snuggy workplace, but it would be different.
(39:11):
That would mean something different to those women. Yeah, I
mean the shift away from just overt sexiness and the
way that we usually think of it is interesting. And
this reminds me that, uh, one of my best friends
and my sister and I now all have the exact
same pair of Nike high tops and I love it.
(39:32):
It's like a little club. Yeah, well I love my
A six Caroline. No, No, they aren't Nike high tops. No,
how is it's Tiger? Is it on? Its supa? I
don't even know. I can't actually read. It's a real embarrassing.
I do like your a six. Well, now, what do
we want to know from listeners about Ethlet you share, Caroline,
do you wear it? Have you been shamed for it?
(39:56):
Do you feel less shamed for it recently? Yeah? My
plan is to take full advantage of the trend because
also I'm a tall woman and I appreciate being quote
unquote allowed to wear flats out if I want to.
I used to catch flak for more fashionable friends of
mine for not wearing heels all the time, partially because
(40:18):
I did not want to be six two and towering
over everyone else. Which time and place, it's great, Yes,
um so I like that. I like the comfort element.
Winter is coming, I can wear my sweatshirts. You're right,
game of trends is about to come back, that's true.
Um so yeah, I think I'm I'm kind of full
throttle at leisure, but to a limit. I'm not going
(40:40):
to buy any pearl encrusted sneakers or anything like that.
I'll return just you wait, Sally might get you son, Caroline.
I wouldn't be suppressed, but I am curious to know
from listeners to if it feels like we're dressing ourselves,
especially as women in a more US centric kind of
(41:01):
way dressing for ourselves rather than especially to be sexy ladies.
I mean, I'm sure part of it is dressing for ourselves.
And I love wearing that sweatshirt thing because it's so
soft and comfy and I can dress it mostly down. Uh,
But so much of it too is just people being like, oh,
this is a thing. Now I'm going to do this.
(41:23):
Just like anything with fashion, there's gonna be people too
when super like feminine, close cut fitted outfits come back
around that are going to be like, oh, thank thank goodness,
I can be myself because everybody has a thing. Yeah.
I mean that's the one thing we definitely did not
get into is how you know body types with ath leisure, Like,
I don't know that it is a trend for every body.
(41:46):
It does seem to be promoting a very specific beauty
ideal that is that more fits bo soul cycle, muscular.
But sure, and I mean I think it's just fashion
catching up to some people and leaving behind others. Mean,
I've worn I've had those a six forever, Like I've
always worn sneakers with jeans and stuff like that, um
(42:07):
into power suits and and my power suits. I mean
so many shoulder pads in my yoga clothes. Yeah, it's
just for you know, shoulder stand extra padding. Well, listeners,
send us your thoughts mom Stuff at house Stuff works
dot Com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And
we've got a couple of messages to share with you.
(42:28):
And we come right back from a quick break, Caroline.
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and now back to the show. Well, we have a
(43:32):
couple of letters here about our waitressing episode. This one's
from Jackie. She says, thank you for your podcast about
waitress thing. I am an actor slash actress and I
was on my supplementary job hunt again today. I kept
on wrestling with myself to apply as a server, to
go into places where the big tips are made and
get a quick cash kind of job. But it made
me feel a bit sad and sick. I couldn't really
(43:54):
explain it to myself. Sexism was on my mind, and
as I bicycled around Toronto, I felt so trapped by
the idealism of what I should be doing and the
reality I was faced with. The norm for someone in
my situation would be to make big tips at night
and audition for TV during the day. I thought of
my old hosting hostessing job at a fancy French restaurant
where the uniform included red lipstick and flowing black skirts.
(44:18):
I had to justify to myself why I had needed
to quit. It took me time to remember how inadequate
and fake I had felt flirting with a wealthy clientele,
and how I flushed red when my boss called women girls.
We were trained to be craft like in our positions
and told that we would move up to be servers
or ten bar. We were very good at our jobs
and used our beautiful personalities. That's in quotes with success.
(44:40):
I only saw men tend the bar, and then I
saw newly employed men on bar, and none of us
girls hostessing were ever invited to be servers. The server
assistance were all men bus boys. The men employed by
the restaurant were on average tend to fifteen years older
than the women slash girls. The job wasn't unbearable in
its function, but the system made me uncomfortable. It was
great to listen to your podcast. It helps me make
(45:02):
sense of things when I can understand my perceptions in
context with history and culture. The serving industry has been
something which seems so defined in a system that has
remained so the same. I loved hearing about how the
stems of its culture in North America are from the
wild West. Thank you for your research and conversation, and
thank you for your letter. Jackie Well. I've got a
(45:23):
letter here from Kelly and she writes, I loved the
waitressing episode. I never thought about the history behind waitressing,
so I found a lot of this fascinating. Nor did
I realize that there's so much controversy about the different
aspects of waitressing. One thing that definitely stuck out to
me was how people look down on waitresses. When I
was a freshman in college and my roommate was looking
(45:43):
for a job, her parents wouldn't let her get a
job as a waitress because they saw that as beneath
her as someone who had only worked in a restaurant.
I was shocked. A friend of mine chose not to
go to college and was waitressing part time at a
different restaurant than the one I worked in. Because it
was small, she could easily be the only waitress working
and would earn quite a bit and tips. As time
(46:03):
went on, people began to ask her how long she
was going to work as a waitress. Feeling the negativity,
she began working as a secretary in a doctor's office.
She told me later that while it was nice to
dress up for work, she wasn't making as much money
in the office as she did as a waitress. The
restaurant I worked at was not high end, but a
busy tourist location, and on a good night, waitresses could
take home several hundred dollars on summer nights. As far
(46:26):
as harassment, even though I was never a waitress, I
was still told to smile, mostly by older men, which
was incredibly creepy. I look young for my age, so
that was frequently a question. Probably the worst interaction I
had with a mail customer was when he asked me,
does your boyfriend think you're cute? I responded, I don't
have a boyfriend, and then he wondered, well, what's wrong
(46:47):
with you? I think I asked him how it was
my fault, but I've never forgiven an awful question. I
hope to not need to waitress in my life or
cater anymore weddings, but if I need to, I certainly
wouldn't mind. And all those years only instilled in me
how hard it can be to work in a restaurant
and that things sometimes just go wrong, and I've become
much more understanding about things that happen when I go
(47:09):
out to eat. So thanks Kelly, and thanks to all
of the present and past servers that we've been hearing from.
Your stories have been rolling in and we appreciate them.
We appreciate all of your letters Mom, Stuff and how
stuff Works dot Com is where you can send them
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including
this one with links to our sources. So you can
(47:31):
learn more about at leisure. Head on over to stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for moralns and thousands
of other topics. Does it How stuff Works dot com
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