July 16, 2021 • 32 mins
What is attachment theory and how does it relate to women specifically? Anney and Samantha navigate the research on attachment and how it can impact relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I never told your production of iHeart Radio. Okay, is
there a moment in your childhood where you knew or
(00:25):
that had the memory of realizing that your mom, what's
someone that you could completely depend on. That's a good question.
I have a memory of I was involved in a car,
a pretty serious car accident when I was four years old.
(00:47):
I was a hit and run. And after that, I
had like all these medical issues and I remember once
in middle of the night, like I was having trouble
breathing and my mom just was there and was holding
me and took me to the hospital. And I remember
thinking in that moment like this is a person who
is looking out for me and who's going to be
there for me, And it was just like, I don't know,
I just have that of her holding me and feeling like, Okay,
(01:10):
this is gonna be okay, because I was kind of
panicking before that, So maybe that Yeah, that's a good memory.
And the reason I asked is today we are going
to go down this very vast road in different studies
of attachment and attachment theories and attachment disorders and how
they relate to women and even in women's relationships in general,
(01:34):
and of course if you don't know much about the
attachment theory as well as all of the studies behind it,
there's a lot of emphasis on mothers and maternal connections,
especially when you go to the original idea. And it's
funny because you and I were talking about we're gonna
record this episode, and I was talking about how difficult
(01:55):
some of this resource was and how very vastly different
the theories can be, as well as the fact that
some of the older studies, much like what we talked
about with our book club inferior, it was really problematic
because they were not necessarily completely just scientific, especially a
lot more misogynistic ideas and the lack of research when
(02:15):
it came to women and girls in general. But I
thought it was fascinating because as we were talking about it,
you were like, I'm afraid this is going to be
one of those moments where I'm gonna be like, oh,
that's me, this is me, And I'm like I had
many of those moments myself, which is also why I
find this subject really fascinating because as a person who
(02:36):
has worked in the field for so long as well
as someone who has gone through a lot of trauma,
especially in my early childhood, especially when it came to
caregivers and people in my life. Yeah, I'm like, well,
this could be me and me and me, and not
that it's something to joke about, but something that has
brought out was the fact that my social work of
(02:57):
friends and myself will talk about the fact that probably
should have been diagnosed with an attachment disorder as a kid.
But this is fairly new ish in itself as a conversation.
So I thought it was interesting and I wanted to
know if you had that moment in your life when
you're like, yeah, my mom is here. This is what
I know. She's the charagiver. I know that she's my
(03:18):
safety net because for me, I don't technically have one
of those moments. So yeah, we're gonna get into it,
and it's gonna be a little all over the place.
So yeah, go ahead and put that. There's no real
trigger warning, even though there's a lot of scientific ideas
behind this theory as well as a lot of sociological
aspects to this, but it may make you start wondering
(03:41):
about your own style and may trigger some things. So
we'll put that in here. Yeah, I'm really fascinated by
this because later in my life I had a reason
to be concerned about abandonment, I guess, but early on
I did it, and yet I would still like wait
at the door, at the window, and my parents would
(04:02):
even think, oh, they're never coming back. And I've always
been curious about why that is, and so perhaps I
will learn about today. So what are we talking about
when we say attachment? As defined by Marion Webster, attachment
is a strong emotional bond that an infant forms with
a caregiver such as a mother, especially when viewed as
(04:25):
a basis for normal emotional and social development. Also the
process by which an infant forms such an emotional bond.
Of course, this is very literal term when it comes
to the psychology of attachment, right, And if you want
to go through and look at all the research papers
in different types of self help, I guess articles that
(04:46):
are out there about this, they also call it an
affection of bond as well, So it's kind of that level. Yeah,
we're gonna keep going down again this rabbit hole, and
I'm telling you it's a deep rabbit hole. And what
is the attachment? The Arry and how did this theory
come to be? Attachment theory is defined as quote a
set of concepts that explained the emergence of an emotional
(05:07):
bond between an infant and a primary caregiver and the
way in which this bond affects the child's behavior and
emotional development into adulthood. And this is by dictionary dot com.
So the attachment theory was first studied by John Bulby,
a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst that worked at the Child Guyan
Clinic in London, and it was the nineteen fifty eight a.
(05:28):
Bulby proposed that the importance of a child's relationship to
its mother influences their social, emotional, and cognitive development. His
ideas centered around the concept of monotropy, which is based
on the idea that a child has to attach to
one main attachment figure, meaning there's one relationship that is
more important than others. And by the way, he was
(05:48):
actually one of those children growing up after being with
his mother, was sent to boarding school and felt like
this really disruptive sort of his attachment stuff. And this
is why he's also fascinated much like us. I'm like, oh,
what's wrong with us? Let's look it up, and he
was interested in learning again the level of separation, anxiety,
(06:09):
and distress children experience when they're no longer with their guardians.
He theorized that attachment was an evolutionary process and that
children were born with innate needs to form attachments with
their primary caregivers. He believed the most critical periods of
attachment development were the first two and a half years UM,
but then he later changed that to the first five
(06:30):
years of years of life. And by the way, he
also said that if they weren't attached by the first
two and a half years, they never would and that
could cause criminal behavior. So his would whole further into
the study, but we're not going to talk about that
level yet. WHOA And according to a site that was
looking into his work, quote, an internal working model is
(06:51):
a cognitive framework comprising mental representations for understanding the world,
self and others, and it's based on the relationship with
the primary caregiver. It becomes a pro a type for
all future social relationships and allows individuals to predict, control,
and manipulate interactions with others. He identified some ideas of
characteristics of attachment, which included proximity, maintenance, being near people,
(07:13):
we are attached to, safe haven, being able to get
comfort and safety and threatening situations from an attachment figure,
secure base, the figure that the child can come back
to while exploring the surroundings um separation, distress, anxiety when
the figure is absent. But as we talked about earlier,
and we'll probably talk about all the way, because I
(07:33):
really want to emphasize this point that as any real
good theories go, there are variations and conflicts that rose
as time passed and more studies were conducted. And by
the way, when we talk about more studies, we're talking
about how they've delved into studies when it comes to abuse,
when it comes to domestic violence, when it comes to
drug use. So there's a plethora of conversations. Psychologist Mary
(07:56):
Ainsworth expanding on Boulby studies with hard work titled Strange Situations,
which was a study in the nineteen seventies. She observed
children between the ages of twelve to eighteen months when
the guardians would lead for a short amount of time
and return, specifically the mothers, and there would be strangers present,
so she wanted to see this type of interaction. She
(08:16):
was able to identify specific styles of attachment, including secure, ambivalent, insecure,
and avoided insecure attachments which could affect behavior later in life,
and in the eighties of fourth style was identified by
the researcher's main Solomon, known as the disorganized insecure attachment,
and these studies continue today with more and more research
(08:37):
being conducted not only in the world of psychology, but
within the world of health care and other service fields.
It heavily influences training and policies within the social welfare
systems and professions and has continued to be a topic
of discussion within the world of academia. But of course,
with such large subject matter, with a lot of opinions
and different research, it comes with some controversy. In past,
(09:00):
misconceived attempts in trying to relearn or unlearned past traumatic
experiences as children has allowed for different methods of therapy
that are considered poorly thought out and based on inaccurate
evidence in its basis and overall research that it should
be looked at with caution, as one stated that these
practices quote are not regarded as having any basis and
(09:21):
attachment theory and research. Besides using the word attachment in
the title, yeah, some of these practices has actually caused death.
And what we're talking about is some of these children
who have been diagnosed with some of the severe disorders
like reactive attachment disorder, which we're going to talk about
in a minute, but they would actually try to rebirth them,
and that practice was swaddling them with heavy cloth and
(09:42):
trying to make them kind of push out out of
the birth canal which is that cloth, but has killed
people because they were ended up being suffocated or such.
And it's kind of all these levels of like this
is impractical, why would you do this? And some of
these practices still happen illegally even though it has been
banned um, and it's not that's not the only ones.
(10:02):
Of course, we talk about reparenting, which sounds like a
good idea, but if it's not actually looked into and
what therapeutic ideas are behind quote unquote reparenting, it can
become very dangerous, especially if we're not looking and monitoring
ptsd UM and triggers as well. So there's a whole
different level. But there's a lot of controversy about who
wants to do what, not that it's all bad, but
(10:25):
it may be hard cost more harm than good and
those with the kind of the practices that we're talking
about when we say controversial. One thing that Bolby did
not account for, which again is not surprising for that time,
is gender. In a researcher named Tonison found that girls
were almost twice as often securely attached than boys, and
(10:46):
that the boys were two times more likely to be
categorized as avoidant and three times more likely to be
categorized as this organized. And yes, we're gonna explain what
these are in a minute, but we just want ahead
and put these statistics out here. And unsurprisingly, insecure boys
were more likely to act out aggressively and to have
behavioral issues, and when stressed and insecurely attached girls who
(11:06):
were more likely to try to please others, meaning boys
were more likely to react with fight or flight, while
girls maybe more on the friend and be friend trend,
so trying to be a people pleaser essentially. And the
study continues to show that insecure attached boys are more
likely to lash out while girls may exhibit internalized behaviors.
And of course this is just one study about it,
(11:29):
and it just trying to account for gender differences if
there are any as we talked about in our A
d h D episodes about what is seeing and why
girls may be less diagnosed is because of the external
versus internal. This is kind of that same conversation. Mm hmm. Yes,
So we do have a lot more we want to
(11:50):
get into with this discussion, but first we're going to
pause for a quick break for a word from response there,
and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So let's dig into
(12:13):
some of the types of attachment styles often seen in adults. Um.
There are four specific types of attachment styles that are
typically noted secure attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, and disorganized attachment.
So let's get into some definitions of these. Secure attachment
also known as autonomous. Those classified as secure are seen
(12:33):
as being comfortable and intimacy, less likely to be worried
about rejection or overly analytical, and how they view their
relationships typically seen as trusting and forgiving, communicates emotions and
openly communicates them, does not need to avoid conflict. Avoidant attachment,
known also as dismissive, characterized with being uncomfortable with close
(12:55):
relationships and typically values independence first and individual freedom. They
find itfficult to trust partners and those around them. They
can be seen more emotionally distant and fearful of rejection.
They can be seen as stoic, compulsively self sufficient, and
with a narrow emotional range. They are also known to
be good in a crisis, less emotional, and can't take charge.
(13:16):
They are also seen as less likely to talk about
their emotions and avoid conflict, but also may have a
more explosive episode when pushed Oh that sounds familiar. So
Anxious attachment a k A. Preoccupied are more likely to
(13:37):
be insecure in relationships, worried about rejection and abandonment, and
are seen as hyperactive when it comes to knees and
their behavior often obsesses on past issues and past unresolved incidents,
which can interfere with their current relationships. Can be seen
as overly sensitive and can take someone's behavior or action
as a personal attack. They're known as being highly emotional
(13:58):
and combative and have poor personal boundaries, and they often
blame others and seem to not be self aware. And
then there is the disorganized attachment or unresolved attachment, and
this is the high levels of anxiety and an avoidance combined.
Not only are they more likely to be uncomfortable with intimacy,
but also worried in questioning their partner's commitment and overall love,
(14:21):
oftentimes associated with severe depression PTSD, disassociations and interests of
triggered memories or trauma um. When looking at this type
of attachment, it is often a part of the comorbility
with the types of diagnosis that can be associated with
severe abuse or neglect. Now, these are specific styles and
categories used to identify how adults may relate with others,
(14:43):
but there's no actual diagnosis of attachment disordered for adults.
And most often when attachment and adults are being studied,
they are given questions to assess the early relationships one
may have had with their primary caregivers. So they are
going way back and oftentimes will kind of negate what
has happened recently. And we're gonna talk a little bit
(15:04):
bit more about this later. But stressors, life events, all
of these things do affect that as well. However, there
are two specific attachment disorders that can be diagnosed in children,
and they are fairly new in the d s M,
and that, though we aren't going to go to in depth,
we did want to do a quick overview of what
they are. Starting with reactive attachment disorder or RAD, usually
(15:26):
seen in children who have suffered maltreatment, ABUS or neglect
is not often diagnosed correctly and needs specific effective treatment.
If it isn't treated, symptoms may continue into adulthood. Some
symptoms may include impulsivity, hard time maintaining relationships, and ability
to read emotions or show affection, detachment and anchor issues. Right,
(15:46):
and at one point in time, there was conversations about
whether unresolved RAD could lead to antisocial personality disorders, but
there's really no correlation. Uh, And there's the bigger conversation again,
there's this whole level how hard it is to diagnosed
someone with RAD as well as anti social personality disorders.
Typically there's a specific questionnaires to that, and unless they're
(16:08):
already kind of noted to have these types of symptoms
and these professionals are able to link, they won't be diagnosed.
This has been my experience when I was working with
the Department Family Children's Services, and how often that would
be kind of just pushed to the side. There's also
disinhibited social engagement disorder or d s e D, which
can develop due to neglect and a lack of consistent
(16:30):
attachment to a primary caregiver during the first two years
of life. Again fairly need to the treatment world, so
maybe under diagnosed or can be mixed with the RAD diagnosis,
but much like RAD, if it isn't treated effectively, it
can continue into adulthood. And some signs of d s
c D and adults include hyperactivity, lack of awareness when
it comes to social boundaries, lack of inhibitions and certain behaviors,
(16:53):
and may be intrusive with the people they barely know
or have just met, so the boundary lines have kind
of just disappeared. And when looking at children diagnosed with
attachment disorders, it's usually within the ages of nine months
to five years UH, though again it can manifest into
adulthood if not treated. But with these two actual disorders,
(17:14):
it can be confused with insecure attachment styles, which we
talked about earlier and may not be classified as a
d s M disorder or diagnosis, but can lead to
other types of d s M diagnosis if not treated.
And while we're talking about all of this, these, like
most theories and diagnoses, look differently with different people, and
many people can have more than one style of attachment
(17:35):
issue that can be triggered based on past trauma, current
trauma stress, so societal expectations or life changes in general,
And the information is constantly changing and turning. But we
still want to see what happens when it comes to
women attachment styles and relationships. So yeah, let's take a
look at that right now. Again, let's go ahead and
(17:56):
just put this reminder here, because you know, I love
all the reminders. There's not a catch all when it
comes to personality or mentality types. There are some schools
of thought that the attachment can play a role in
a person's way of interacting with people, whether it's familial
or romantic. But there's no magic quiz that can perfectly
diagnose what type of attachment style one maybe categorized well
(18:17):
for most people anyway, who knows, maybe some people can,
but that I've seen or that has been super accurate.
And just as we are saying earlier and any you
and I were saying, we might fit into a couple
of these categories on different levels, right So, and we
talked a bit earlier about how each different styles might
react in romantic relationships, but we wanted to look at
(18:38):
this in a different take, specifically how this may affect women,
especially when we look at the six heteronormative demands placed
on women meaning the perfect wise, mother's caretakers rights. According
to one article focused on attachment and relationships, author Dr
Beard Brugert looks at how the focus on the attachment
between two people that quote sustained traditional relationship structures and
(19:01):
not necessarily romantic love. In her article, she states, no
matter the type of attachment, attachment relationships are quote likely
to involve some form of dependence and contractual interaction. And
here she examines a look within marriages and domestic partnerships.
When she she's talking about attachment relationships, she continues that
(19:22):
these relationships quote replicate traditional relationship structures that could lead
to an oppressive relationship right. And according to her writing,
she gave some examples of why women in these roles
are oftentimes the one to invest more emotional energy and
how the relationships are typically uneven. She states women may
subsume their identity to their partners, which in turn transform
(19:42):
their own perspectives or ideals, trying to become more like them.
Another reason maybe that women are more likely to stay
in long term relationships because of the overall investment in
that relationship, i e. We've done this for ten years.
I can't just get out of it now. I've invested
too much and changing this can be too hard. And
a third reason women are more likely to be in
this type of attachment relationship may have to do with
(20:04):
the overall societal expectation that women are supposed to be
dependent on men, whether we are talking about the heteronormative
role of men being breadwinners or being protectors leaders of
a home. The societal expectation of two becoming one places
a level of dependency in order for women to be complete.
So Horle conversation was based on the idea that this
(20:26):
type of relationship is an attachment based relationship, so therefore
is unhealthy and taking away power and the overall desire
that a woman may have, meaning that they cannot place
themselves first because in this attachment relationship they put their
husbands first, which we've heard that many many times about marriages. Yes, yes,
(20:48):
and when we break down mononormative relationships, there could be
elements that some may think are too constrictive and cause
more stress within these relationships. In fact, there are many
theories within attachment and relationships about how specific types may
not be compatible um and more toxic than others when
looking at a secure attachment. The idea is that a
(21:08):
secure style may be compatible with all the styles as
long as they are able to discern and communicate with
the partners, while an anxious style with an avoidance style
may be one of the least likely to succeed. Though
again not written in stone, these are generalizations we're dealing
with now. But then we need to take into account
the overall stressors of life and how each attachment style
(21:29):
handles the stressors, whether they are exterior or interior types
of stress. So a lot going on. People are complicated,
and when we talk about exterior and interior types of
stress is kind of like what's going around them versus
what's going on inside of them and how do they react?
And we talked about how you know, some more inhibited
and some are more physical, so that kind of conversation. Yes, yes,
(21:54):
and we have even more conversation for you, but first
we have one more cup break for word fer sponsors,
every Black thank You sponsors. So some theory is that consensual,
(22:18):
non monogamous relationships may help open up different attachment possibilities,
so you may have different styles that can actually relate
with others. Even beyond that, exploring past the binary ideas
of both relationships and gender could allow for better emotional
regulation as well as a more secure attachments being able
(22:38):
to be formed. So, as author Meg John Barker writes
in her article gender Attachment and Trauma, Quote, consider how
entwined gender is with emotional expression and how stepping outside
of the culturally normative way of doing romantic sexual relationships
may offer possibilities of slowing down and or prioritizing different
kinds of relating which may be more stable and secure.
(23:01):
And if you go on to read her article, she
talks a lot about how gender plus trauma plus attachment
can be a big portion of how we handle our
relationships and how breaking down the binary ideas of each
can actually be helpful in understanding our own attachment things
as well as being able to relate with others. So
(23:22):
it was really really interesting, and of course this is
very new um as we are talking more and more
about the spectrum of gender to the spectrum of relationships,
polyamorous relationships and how it can be healthy and consensual
adult relationships where people are able to explore more with
their sexuality and also that spectrum as well, and breaking
that down that perhaps allows us to be able to
(23:45):
explore our attachment styles as well and to work on
being more secure. So it's a really fascinating read. Definitely
should read that. I also should go ahead and put
this in here. In part of the controversy, the old
school ideas of attachment our binary and can be even
be problem magic. It has been used as kind of
a transphobic idea of what gender norms could be when
(24:06):
it comes to attachment. So we go ahead with that
morning out there. There's a really bad science out there
for old fashioned, very Western Christian ideas of heteronormative families
and normal families, as they would call it, not what
we would call it, so go ahead, but that they're so.
Another key component to this entire conversation again is how
trauma affects an individual's attachment style as well. So when
(24:29):
we look at the situations of abusing violence in a
person with an insecure attachment, the overall stressors can push
the individual symptoms into overdrive or maybe even bring some
out that we didn't know was there, whether it's having
memories since we triggers that bring out past defenses, maybe distancing,
being too cleany, or PTSD episodes, which can occur if
(24:49):
a situation is a reminiscent of a past traumatic occurrence.
There's also even an exploration of weather disorders like disassociative
identity disorder or d I D could be linked with
attached disorders our styles as well. In a two thousand
and six steady the question of whether an infant's attachment
disorganization could contribute to the development of adult disassociative symptoms,
(25:09):
and though there could be some evidence that suggests there
is a possible link, it hasn't been fully studied at
this time. There is a commonality to the disorganized attachment
style to both disassociative identity and PTSD, but no real
evidence to show it being a cause or effect when
it comes to d I D. But we also wanted
to talk about types of therapy or treatment that can
(25:30):
help for those with insecure attachment styles. For children with
disorders such as RAD or d S e D, psychotherapy
like play therapy and art therapy can often allow for
children to communicate on their level, and it's typically best
wind caregivers are able to attend with a child to
focus on strengthening their relationship and developing a healthy attachment.
(25:52):
Social skills training which can help children learn to interact
better and social settings, and overall family therapy also good option.
So for adults of course, the therapy with a trusted
certified therapists. And again, because attachment styles and issues are
based on personal experiences, discussing the symptoms may be the
first way to note what type of treatment is best
for an individual. Um Again, go to therapy, that's a
(26:15):
good thing. But if you can't afford there, because we
know that's the privilege which shouldn't be unfortunately is uh,
there are ways that you can look to work on
your attachment issues as well. Not only can you work
on your attachment issues and insecure attachment, but you can
help for any relationships. Honestly, so we just want to
kind of give a couple of things as possible advice. Again,
(26:38):
we are not professionals, so don't listen to us as
if where your doctors, please go see if you can
go see a therapist yourself, all of those things. But
these are some things that you can look at and
maybe able to process some of the things that you
have been thinking on, or have been obsessing on or
wondering about. Who knows. Try to work on your non
verbabal communications. Between how you interpret, how you interact with others,
(27:02):
and how you read others can affect your relationships, and
being able to communicate on both nonverbal and verbal levels
can alleviate some of the pain of assuming things are
going wrong and being able to actually work through it
without seeing the horrors of oh my god, did this?
Is this going to happen? Which I do that examinations
and I'm assuming everything. That's the worst m But if
(27:24):
you could break that down and I should talk about
it and actually work on yourself, this might help you
work on your emotional intelligence or EQ. This means learning
to understand your own emotions and how to control or
even understand why you feel the way you do, and
being able to express this to your partner more harder
(27:45):
than you would think. Something I've been working on. Yes,
find and develop relationships with securely attached people. This can
help in romantic relationships, but can also be helpful in friendships.
Having supportive, strong friends could have help you overcome your
own insecurities right and a biggie work on resolving your
(28:07):
childhood trauma or traumas. Uh yeah, And it's easy to
try to bypass this one or to ignore it. I've
done in a lot for me for the longest time
when I was in therapy, I could never get to
that because I was so constantly dealing with the daily
trauma and daily issues and having to try to get
past that. So I was putting band aids instead of actually,
you know, doing surgery and stitching myself up. But when
(28:29):
it comes to attachment theories, this is the one that
can weigh you down from making progress and positive change.
So there's a lot to that, obviously. And I throw
that out there as if it's like, oh, here you go,
obviously very easy. It isn't. It isn't. And typically the
best way to do this is through therapy. Again, like
I said, it took me ten years to actually get
to that because I was just dealing with daily trauma
(28:51):
upon trauma upon trauma, which I mean the last year
I think would be the prime example of you weren't
able to do the deepest off because you're dealing with
the daily stuff, and that in itself can cost so much.
Trauma can cost so much triggering, but as we are
trying to get back to hopefully a baseline of what
(29:13):
our life was at one point in time, trying to
come back to resolve those past traumas. That's just sitting there.
Really important, yes, extremely important, and very very difficult to
do for sure. And you know, We've been having this
serious conversation and I've had a lot of Star Wars
thoughts and I've been trying to hold them back, but
(29:36):
I just want to say, like, there's a lot I
could talk about with Star Wars and attached issues stitles,
because there's like the whole Jedi code of like attachment
is fine, but attachment to the attachment is not fine.
You have to be willing to let go you've got
I've been reading these like Darth Vader, who is called
Sad murder Dad, and fan fiction often stories where he's
(29:58):
like trying to get Luke to attach do it just
doing all this weird messed up stuff Kylo Wren as
a whole. I don't even want to get into it anyway.
I could maybe in a future happy here we go,
the psychology of Star Wars. I am ready, Yes, I'm
sure you are. Yes, I've been preparing, but we can.
(30:19):
We should do a whole session where I pretend to
be the counselor and you pretend to be one of
the characters, and well, have like a session that would
be so fun. What it so okay? Last night when
we played Dungeons and Dragons and I had to I
was playing essentially Kylo Wren as a villain, and it
was so weird because I was like, I was getting
(30:43):
hurt because they were saying mean things to me, but
I'm like, I don't like Kylo writ It was a
very confusing place to be a lot of conflicting emotions there.
And as you're talking about your correlation to Star Wars, Honestly,
these conversations that we're having can go back to a
lot of our own episodes, including daddy issues. We talked
(31:04):
about that and that's actually that came up as part
of the research as well. How that could be a
part of this is it's an attachment thing where it's
unnecessarily healthy, And they did have researched specifically to children
bonding with fathers and can that be the caregiver? And
there have been other pass words. Emerson is one of
them who talks about having at least one primary good
influence who you can attach to and that can make
(31:27):
a significant change. And I believe that I've seen that.
I feel like that's why mentorship programs are so important
as well. But so many things that we could go
with this, and yeah, this is a very skewed, giant
topic that we boiled down to this because we were like,
how do we do this in a way that correlates
as one topic without going fifteen thousand different directions and
(31:50):
finding notable good research that's not super transphobic, super homophobic,
or any of that such, because those narratives, as we know,
can change based on people's agendas and we didn't want
to do that. But it's a lot, it's a lot
to take in. It is a lot to take in.
It's given me a lot to think about and listeners,
(32:13):
if you would like to share your thoughts of those,
you can. You can email us at Stuff Media, mom
Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find us
on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You or on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
super producer, Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I Never Told You. His protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcast on iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
(32:33):
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
I never told your production of iHeart Radio. Okay, is
there a moment in your childhood where you knew or
(00:25):
that had the memory of realizing that your mom, what's
someone that you could completely depend on. That's a good question.
I have a memory of I was involved in a car,
a pretty serious car accident when I was four years old.
(00:47):
I was a hit and run. And after that, I
had like all these medical issues and I remember once
in middle of the night, like I was having trouble
breathing and my mom just was there and was holding
me and took me to the hospital. And I remember
thinking in that moment like this is a person who
is looking out for me and who's going to be
there for me, And it was just like, I don't know,
I just have that of her holding me and feeling like, Okay,
(01:10):
this is gonna be okay, because I was kind of
panicking before that, So maybe that Yeah, that's a good memory.
And the reason I asked is today we are going
to go down this very vast road in different studies
of attachment and attachment theories and attachment disorders and how
they relate to women and even in women's relationships in general,
(01:34):
and of course if you don't know much about the
attachment theory as well as all of the studies behind it,
there's a lot of emphasis on mothers and maternal connections,
especially when you go to the original idea. And it's
funny because you and I were talking about we're gonna
record this episode, and I was talking about how difficult
(01:55):
some of this resource was and how very vastly different
the theories can be, as well as the fact that
some of the older studies, much like what we talked
about with our book club inferior, it was really problematic
because they were not necessarily completely just scientific, especially a
lot more misogynistic ideas and the lack of research when
(02:15):
it came to women and girls in general. But I
thought it was fascinating because as we were talking about it,
you were like, I'm afraid this is going to be
one of those moments where I'm gonna be like, oh,
that's me, this is me, And I'm like I had
many of those moments myself, which is also why I
find this subject really fascinating because as a person who
(02:36):
has worked in the field for so long as well
as someone who has gone through a lot of trauma,
especially in my early childhood, especially when it came to
caregivers and people in my life. Yeah, I'm like, well,
this could be me and me and me, and not
that it's something to joke about, but something that has
brought out was the fact that my social work of
(02:57):
friends and myself will talk about the fact that probably
should have been diagnosed with an attachment disorder as a kid.
But this is fairly new ish in itself as a conversation.
So I thought it was interesting and I wanted to
know if you had that moment in your life when
you're like, yeah, my mom is here. This is what
I know. She's the charagiver. I know that she's my
(03:18):
safety net because for me, I don't technically have one
of those moments. So yeah, we're gonna get into it,
and it's gonna be a little all over the place.
So yeah, go ahead and put that. There's no real
trigger warning, even though there's a lot of scientific ideas
behind this theory as well as a lot of sociological
aspects to this, but it may make you start wondering
(03:41):
about your own style and may trigger some things. So
we'll put that in here. Yeah, I'm really fascinated by
this because later in my life I had a reason
to be concerned about abandonment, I guess, but early on
I did it, and yet I would still like wait
at the door, at the window, and my parents would
(04:02):
even think, oh, they're never coming back. And I've always
been curious about why that is, and so perhaps I
will learn about today. So what are we talking about
when we say attachment? As defined by Marion Webster, attachment
is a strong emotional bond that an infant forms with
a caregiver such as a mother, especially when viewed as
(04:25):
a basis for normal emotional and social development. Also the
process by which an infant forms such an emotional bond.
Of course, this is very literal term when it comes
to the psychology of attachment, right, And if you want
to go through and look at all the research papers
in different types of self help, I guess articles that
(04:46):
are out there about this, they also call it an
affection of bond as well, So it's kind of that level. Yeah,
we're gonna keep going down again this rabbit hole, and
I'm telling you it's a deep rabbit hole. And what
is the attachment? The Arry and how did this theory
come to be? Attachment theory is defined as quote a
set of concepts that explained the emergence of an emotional
(05:07):
bond between an infant and a primary caregiver and the
way in which this bond affects the child's behavior and
emotional development into adulthood. And this is by dictionary dot com.
So the attachment theory was first studied by John Bulby,
a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst that worked at the Child Guyan
Clinic in London, and it was the nineteen fifty eight a.
(05:28):
Bulby proposed that the importance of a child's relationship to
its mother influences their social, emotional, and cognitive development. His
ideas centered around the concept of monotropy, which is based
on the idea that a child has to attach to
one main attachment figure, meaning there's one relationship that is
more important than others. And by the way, he was
(05:48):
actually one of those children growing up after being with
his mother, was sent to boarding school and felt like
this really disruptive sort of his attachment stuff. And this
is why he's also fascinated much like us. I'm like, oh,
what's wrong with us? Let's look it up, and he
was interested in learning again the level of separation, anxiety,
(06:09):
and distress children experience when they're no longer with their guardians.
He theorized that attachment was an evolutionary process and that
children were born with innate needs to form attachments with
their primary caregivers. He believed the most critical periods of
attachment development were the first two and a half years UM,
but then he later changed that to the first five
(06:30):
years of years of life. And by the way, he
also said that if they weren't attached by the first
two and a half years, they never would and that
could cause criminal behavior. So his would whole further into
the study, but we're not going to talk about that
level yet. WHOA And according to a site that was
looking into his work, quote, an internal working model is
(06:51):
a cognitive framework comprising mental representations for understanding the world,
self and others, and it's based on the relationship with
the primary caregiver. It becomes a pro a type for
all future social relationships and allows individuals to predict, control,
and manipulate interactions with others. He identified some ideas of
characteristics of attachment, which included proximity, maintenance, being near people,
(07:13):
we are attached to, safe haven, being able to get
comfort and safety and threatening situations from an attachment figure,
secure base, the figure that the child can come back
to while exploring the surroundings um separation, distress, anxiety when
the figure is absent. But as we talked about earlier,
and we'll probably talk about all the way, because I
(07:33):
really want to emphasize this point that as any real
good theories go, there are variations and conflicts that rose
as time passed and more studies were conducted. And by
the way, when we talk about more studies, we're talking
about how they've delved into studies when it comes to abuse,
when it comes to domestic violence, when it comes to
drug use. So there's a plethora of conversations. Psychologist Mary
(07:56):
Ainsworth expanding on Boulby studies with hard work titled Strange Situations,
which was a study in the nineteen seventies. She observed
children between the ages of twelve to eighteen months when
the guardians would lead for a short amount of time
and return, specifically the mothers, and there would be strangers present,
so she wanted to see this type of interaction. She
(08:16):
was able to identify specific styles of attachment, including secure, ambivalent, insecure,
and avoided insecure attachments which could affect behavior later in life,
and in the eighties of fourth style was identified by
the researcher's main Solomon, known as the disorganized insecure attachment,
and these studies continue today with more and more research
(08:37):
being conducted not only in the world of psychology, but
within the world of health care and other service fields.
It heavily influences training and policies within the social welfare
systems and professions and has continued to be a topic
of discussion within the world of academia. But of course,
with such large subject matter, with a lot of opinions
and different research, it comes with some controversy. In past,
(09:00):
misconceived attempts in trying to relearn or unlearned past traumatic
experiences as children has allowed for different methods of therapy
that are considered poorly thought out and based on inaccurate
evidence in its basis and overall research that it should
be looked at with caution, as one stated that these
practices quote are not regarded as having any basis and
(09:21):
attachment theory and research. Besides using the word attachment in
the title, yeah, some of these practices has actually caused death.
And what we're talking about is some of these children
who have been diagnosed with some of the severe disorders
like reactive attachment disorder, which we're going to talk about
in a minute, but they would actually try to rebirth them,
and that practice was swaddling them with heavy cloth and
(09:42):
trying to make them kind of push out out of
the birth canal which is that cloth, but has killed
people because they were ended up being suffocated or such.
And it's kind of all these levels of like this
is impractical, why would you do this? And some of
these practices still happen illegally even though it has been
banned um, and it's not that's not the only ones.
(10:02):
Of course, we talk about reparenting, which sounds like a
good idea, but if it's not actually looked into and
what therapeutic ideas are behind quote unquote reparenting, it can
become very dangerous, especially if we're not looking and monitoring
ptsd UM and triggers as well. So there's a whole
different level. But there's a lot of controversy about who
wants to do what, not that it's all bad, but
(10:25):
it may be hard cost more harm than good and
those with the kind of the practices that we're talking
about when we say controversial. One thing that Bolby did
not account for, which again is not surprising for that time,
is gender. In a researcher named Tonison found that girls
were almost twice as often securely attached than boys, and
(10:46):
that the boys were two times more likely to be
categorized as avoidant and three times more likely to be
categorized as this organized. And yes, we're gonna explain what
these are in a minute, but we just want ahead
and put these statistics out here. And unsurprisingly, insecure boys
were more likely to act out aggressively and to have
behavioral issues, and when stressed and insecurely attached girls who
(11:06):
were more likely to try to please others, meaning boys
were more likely to react with fight or flight, while
girls maybe more on the friend and be friend trend,
so trying to be a people pleaser essentially. And the
study continues to show that insecure attached boys are more
likely to lash out while girls may exhibit internalized behaviors.
And of course this is just one study about it,
(11:29):
and it just trying to account for gender differences if
there are any as we talked about in our A
d h D episodes about what is seeing and why
girls may be less diagnosed is because of the external
versus internal. This is kind of that same conversation. Mm hmm. Yes,
So we do have a lot more we want to
(11:50):
get into with this discussion, but first we're going to
pause for a quick break for a word from response there,
and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So let's dig into
(12:13):
some of the types of attachment styles often seen in adults. Um.
There are four specific types of attachment styles that are
typically noted secure attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, and disorganized attachment.
So let's get into some definitions of these. Secure attachment
also known as autonomous. Those classified as secure are seen
(12:33):
as being comfortable and intimacy, less likely to be worried
about rejection or overly analytical, and how they view their
relationships typically seen as trusting and forgiving, communicates emotions and
openly communicates them, does not need to avoid conflict. Avoidant attachment,
known also as dismissive, characterized with being uncomfortable with close
(12:55):
relationships and typically values independence first and individual freedom. They
find itfficult to trust partners and those around them. They
can be seen more emotionally distant and fearful of rejection.
They can be seen as stoic, compulsively self sufficient, and
with a narrow emotional range. They are also known to
be good in a crisis, less emotional, and can't take charge.
(13:16):
They are also seen as less likely to talk about
their emotions and avoid conflict, but also may have a
more explosive episode when pushed Oh that sounds familiar. So
Anxious attachment a k A. Preoccupied are more likely to
(13:37):
be insecure in relationships, worried about rejection and abandonment, and
are seen as hyperactive when it comes to knees and
their behavior often obsesses on past issues and past unresolved incidents,
which can interfere with their current relationships. Can be seen
as overly sensitive and can take someone's behavior or action
as a personal attack. They're known as being highly emotional
(13:58):
and combative and have poor personal boundaries, and they often
blame others and seem to not be self aware. And
then there is the disorganized attachment or unresolved attachment, and
this is the high levels of anxiety and an avoidance combined.
Not only are they more likely to be uncomfortable with intimacy,
but also worried in questioning their partner's commitment and overall love,
(14:21):
oftentimes associated with severe depression PTSD, disassociations and interests of
triggered memories or trauma um. When looking at this type
of attachment, it is often a part of the comorbility
with the types of diagnosis that can be associated with
severe abuse or neglect. Now, these are specific styles and
categories used to identify how adults may relate with others,
(14:43):
but there's no actual diagnosis of attachment disordered for adults.
And most often when attachment and adults are being studied,
they are given questions to assess the early relationships one
may have had with their primary caregivers. So they are
going way back and oftentimes will kind of negate what
has happened recently. And we're gonna talk a little bit
(15:04):
bit more about this later. But stressors, life events, all
of these things do affect that as well. However, there
are two specific attachment disorders that can be diagnosed in children,
and they are fairly new in the d s M,
and that, though we aren't going to go to in depth,
we did want to do a quick overview of what
they are. Starting with reactive attachment disorder or RAD, usually
(15:26):
seen in children who have suffered maltreatment, ABUS or neglect
is not often diagnosed correctly and needs specific effective treatment.
If it isn't treated, symptoms may continue into adulthood. Some
symptoms may include impulsivity, hard time maintaining relationships, and ability
to read emotions or show affection, detachment and anchor issues. Right,
(15:46):
and at one point in time, there was conversations about
whether unresolved RAD could lead to antisocial personality disorders, but
there's really no correlation. Uh, And there's the bigger conversation again,
there's this whole level how hard it is to diagnosed
someone with RAD as well as anti social personality disorders.
Typically there's a specific questionnaires to that, and unless they're
(16:08):
already kind of noted to have these types of symptoms
and these professionals are able to link, they won't be diagnosed.
This has been my experience when I was working with
the Department Family Children's Services, and how often that would
be kind of just pushed to the side. There's also
disinhibited social engagement disorder or d s e D, which
can develop due to neglect and a lack of consistent
(16:30):
attachment to a primary caregiver during the first two years
of life. Again fairly need to the treatment world, so
maybe under diagnosed or can be mixed with the RAD diagnosis,
but much like RAD, if it isn't treated effectively, it
can continue into adulthood. And some signs of d s
c D and adults include hyperactivity, lack of awareness when
it comes to social boundaries, lack of inhibitions and certain behaviors,
(16:53):
and may be intrusive with the people they barely know
or have just met, so the boundary lines have kind
of just disappeared. And when looking at children diagnosed with
attachment disorders, it's usually within the ages of nine months
to five years UH, though again it can manifest into
adulthood if not treated. But with these two actual disorders,
(17:14):
it can be confused with insecure attachment styles, which we
talked about earlier and may not be classified as a
d s M disorder or diagnosis, but can lead to
other types of d s M diagnosis if not treated.
And while we're talking about all of this, these, like
most theories and diagnoses, look differently with different people, and
many people can have more than one style of attachment
(17:35):
issue that can be triggered based on past trauma, current
trauma stress, so societal expectations or life changes in general,
And the information is constantly changing and turning. But we
still want to see what happens when it comes to
women attachment styles and relationships. So yeah, let's take a
look at that right now. Again, let's go ahead and
(17:56):
just put this reminder here, because you know, I love
all the reminders. There's not a catch all when it
comes to personality or mentality types. There are some schools
of thought that the attachment can play a role in
a person's way of interacting with people, whether it's familial
or romantic. But there's no magic quiz that can perfectly
diagnose what type of attachment style one maybe categorized well
(18:17):
for most people anyway, who knows, maybe some people can,
but that I've seen or that has been super accurate.
And just as we are saying earlier and any you
and I were saying, we might fit into a couple
of these categories on different levels, right So, and we
talked a bit earlier about how each different styles might
react in romantic relationships, but we wanted to look at
(18:38):
this in a different take, specifically how this may affect women,
especially when we look at the six heteronormative demands placed
on women meaning the perfect wise, mother's caretakers rights. According
to one article focused on attachment and relationships, author Dr
Beard Brugert looks at how the focus on the attachment
between two people that quote sustained traditional relationship structures and
(19:01):
not necessarily romantic love. In her article, she states, no
matter the type of attachment, attachment relationships are quote likely
to involve some form of dependence and contractual interaction. And
here she examines a look within marriages and domestic partnerships.
When she she's talking about attachment relationships, she continues that
(19:22):
these relationships quote replicate traditional relationship structures that could lead
to an oppressive relationship right. And according to her writing,
she gave some examples of why women in these roles
are oftentimes the one to invest more emotional energy and
how the relationships are typically uneven. She states women may
subsume their identity to their partners, which in turn transform
(19:42):
their own perspectives or ideals, trying to become more like them.
Another reason maybe that women are more likely to stay
in long term relationships because of the overall investment in
that relationship, i e. We've done this for ten years.
I can't just get out of it now. I've invested
too much and changing this can be too hard. And
a third reason women are more likely to be in
this type of attachment relationship may have to do with
(20:04):
the overall societal expectation that women are supposed to be
dependent on men, whether we are talking about the heteronormative
role of men being breadwinners or being protectors leaders of
a home. The societal expectation of two becoming one places
a level of dependency in order for women to be complete.
So Horle conversation was based on the idea that this
(20:26):
type of relationship is an attachment based relationship, so therefore
is unhealthy and taking away power and the overall desire
that a woman may have, meaning that they cannot place
themselves first because in this attachment relationship they put their
husbands first, which we've heard that many many times about marriages. Yes, yes,
(20:48):
and when we break down mononormative relationships, there could be
elements that some may think are too constrictive and cause
more stress within these relationships. In fact, there are many
theories within attachment and relationships about how specific types may
not be compatible um and more toxic than others when
looking at a secure attachment. The idea is that a
(21:08):
secure style may be compatible with all the styles as
long as they are able to discern and communicate with
the partners, while an anxious style with an avoidance style
may be one of the least likely to succeed. Though
again not written in stone, these are generalizations we're dealing
with now. But then we need to take into account
the overall stressors of life and how each attachment style
(21:29):
handles the stressors, whether they are exterior or interior types
of stress. So a lot going on. People are complicated,
and when we talk about exterior and interior types of
stress is kind of like what's going around them versus
what's going on inside of them and how do they react?
And we talked about how you know, some more inhibited
and some are more physical, so that kind of conversation. Yes, yes,
(21:54):
and we have even more conversation for you, but first
we have one more cup break for word fer sponsors,
every Black thank You sponsors. So some theory is that consensual,
(22:18):
non monogamous relationships may help open up different attachment possibilities,
so you may have different styles that can actually relate
with others. Even beyond that, exploring past the binary ideas
of both relationships and gender could allow for better emotional
regulation as well as a more secure attachments being able
(22:38):
to be formed. So, as author Meg John Barker writes
in her article gender Attachment and Trauma, Quote, consider how
entwined gender is with emotional expression and how stepping outside
of the culturally normative way of doing romantic sexual relationships
may offer possibilities of slowing down and or prioritizing different
kinds of relating which may be more stable and secure.
(23:01):
And if you go on to read her article, she
talks a lot about how gender plus trauma plus attachment
can be a big portion of how we handle our
relationships and how breaking down the binary ideas of each
can actually be helpful in understanding our own attachment things
as well as being able to relate with others. So
(23:22):
it was really really interesting, and of course this is
very new um as we are talking more and more
about the spectrum of gender to the spectrum of relationships,
polyamorous relationships and how it can be healthy and consensual
adult relationships where people are able to explore more with
their sexuality and also that spectrum as well, and breaking
that down that perhaps allows us to be able to
(23:45):
explore our attachment styles as well and to work on
being more secure. So it's a really fascinating read. Definitely
should read that. I also should go ahead and put
this in here. In part of the controversy, the old
school ideas of attachment our binary and can be even
be problem magic. It has been used as kind of
a transphobic idea of what gender norms could be when
(24:06):
it comes to attachment. So we go ahead with that
morning out there. There's a really bad science out there
for old fashioned, very Western Christian ideas of heteronormative families
and normal families, as they would call it, not what
we would call it, so go ahead, but that they're so.
Another key component to this entire conversation again is how
trauma affects an individual's attachment style as well. So when
(24:29):
we look at the situations of abusing violence in a
person with an insecure attachment, the overall stressors can push
the individual symptoms into overdrive or maybe even bring some
out that we didn't know was there, whether it's having
memories since we triggers that bring out past defenses, maybe distancing,
being too cleany, or PTSD episodes, which can occur if
(24:49):
a situation is a reminiscent of a past traumatic occurrence.
There's also even an exploration of weather disorders like disassociative
identity disorder or d I D could be linked with
attached disorders our styles as well. In a two thousand
and six steady the question of whether an infant's attachment
disorganization could contribute to the development of adult disassociative symptoms,
(25:09):
and though there could be some evidence that suggests there
is a possible link, it hasn't been fully studied at
this time. There is a commonality to the disorganized attachment
style to both disassociative identity and PTSD, but no real
evidence to show it being a cause or effect when
it comes to d I D. But we also wanted
to talk about types of therapy or treatment that can
(25:30):
help for those with insecure attachment styles. For children with
disorders such as RAD or d S e D, psychotherapy
like play therapy and art therapy can often allow for
children to communicate on their level, and it's typically best
wind caregivers are able to attend with a child to
focus on strengthening their relationship and developing a healthy attachment.
(25:52):
Social skills training which can help children learn to interact
better and social settings, and overall family therapy also good option.
So for adults of course, the therapy with a trusted
certified therapists. And again, because attachment styles and issues are
based on personal experiences, discussing the symptoms may be the
first way to note what type of treatment is best
for an individual. Um Again, go to therapy, that's a
(26:15):
good thing. But if you can't afford there, because we
know that's the privilege which shouldn't be unfortunately is uh,
there are ways that you can look to work on
your attachment issues as well. Not only can you work
on your attachment issues and insecure attachment, but you can
help for any relationships. Honestly, so we just want to
kind of give a couple of things as possible advice. Again,
(26:38):
we are not professionals, so don't listen to us as
if where your doctors, please go see if you can
go see a therapist yourself, all of those things. But
these are some things that you can look at and
maybe able to process some of the things that you
have been thinking on, or have been obsessing on or
wondering about. Who knows. Try to work on your non
verbabal communications. Between how you interpret, how you interact with others,
(27:02):
and how you read others can affect your relationships, and
being able to communicate on both nonverbal and verbal levels
can alleviate some of the pain of assuming things are
going wrong and being able to actually work through it
without seeing the horrors of oh my god, did this?
Is this going to happen? Which I do that examinations
and I'm assuming everything. That's the worst m But if
(27:24):
you could break that down and I should talk about
it and actually work on yourself, this might help you
work on your emotional intelligence or EQ. This means learning
to understand your own emotions and how to control or
even understand why you feel the way you do, and
being able to express this to your partner more harder
(27:45):
than you would think. Something I've been working on. Yes,
find and develop relationships with securely attached people. This can
help in romantic relationships, but can also be helpful in friendships.
Having supportive, strong friends could have help you overcome your
own insecurities right and a biggie work on resolving your
(28:07):
childhood trauma or traumas. Uh yeah, And it's easy to
try to bypass this one or to ignore it. I've
done in a lot for me for the longest time
when I was in therapy, I could never get to
that because I was so constantly dealing with the daily
trauma and daily issues and having to try to get
past that. So I was putting band aids instead of actually,
you know, doing surgery and stitching myself up. But when
(28:29):
it comes to attachment theories, this is the one that
can weigh you down from making progress and positive change.
So there's a lot to that, obviously. And I throw
that out there as if it's like, oh, here you go,
obviously very easy. It isn't. It isn't. And typically the
best way to do this is through therapy. Again, like
I said, it took me ten years to actually get
to that because I was just dealing with daily trauma
(28:51):
upon trauma upon trauma, which I mean the last year
I think would be the prime example of you weren't
able to do the deepest off because you're dealing with
the daily stuff, and that in itself can cost so much.
Trauma can cost so much triggering, but as we are
trying to get back to hopefully a baseline of what
(29:13):
our life was at one point in time, trying to
come back to resolve those past traumas. That's just sitting there.
Really important, yes, extremely important, and very very difficult to
do for sure. And you know, We've been having this
serious conversation and I've had a lot of Star Wars
thoughts and I've been trying to hold them back, but
(29:36):
I just want to say, like, there's a lot I
could talk about with Star Wars and attached issues stitles,
because there's like the whole Jedi code of like attachment
is fine, but attachment to the attachment is not fine.
You have to be willing to let go you've got
I've been reading these like Darth Vader, who is called
Sad murder Dad, and fan fiction often stories where he's
(29:58):
like trying to get Luke to attach do it just
doing all this weird messed up stuff Kylo Wren as
a whole. I don't even want to get into it anyway.
I could maybe in a future happy here we go,
the psychology of Star Wars. I am ready, Yes, I'm
sure you are. Yes, I've been preparing, but we can.
(30:19):
We should do a whole session where I pretend to
be the counselor and you pretend to be one of
the characters, and well, have like a session that would
be so fun. What it so okay? Last night when
we played Dungeons and Dragons and I had to I
was playing essentially Kylo Wren as a villain, and it
was so weird because I was like, I was getting
(30:43):
hurt because they were saying mean things to me, but
I'm like, I don't like Kylo writ It was a
very confusing place to be a lot of conflicting emotions there.
And as you're talking about your correlation to Star Wars, Honestly,
these conversations that we're having can go back to a
lot of our own episodes, including daddy issues. We talked
(31:04):
about that and that's actually that came up as part
of the research as well. How that could be a
part of this is it's an attachment thing where it's
unnecessarily healthy, And they did have researched specifically to children
bonding with fathers and can that be the caregiver? And
there have been other pass words. Emerson is one of
them who talks about having at least one primary good
influence who you can attach to and that can make
(31:27):
a significant change. And I believe that I've seen that.
I feel like that's why mentorship programs are so important
as well. But so many things that we could go
with this, and yeah, this is a very skewed, giant
topic that we boiled down to this because we were like,
how do we do this in a way that correlates
as one topic without going fifteen thousand different directions and
(31:50):
finding notable good research that's not super transphobic, super homophobic,
or any of that such, because those narratives, as we know,
can change based on people's agendas and we didn't want
to do that. But it's a lot, it's a lot
to take in. It is a lot to take in.
It's given me a lot to think about and listeners,
(32:13):
if you would like to share your thoughts of those,
you can. You can email us at Stuff Media, mom
Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find us
on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You or on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
super producer, Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I Never Told You. His protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcast on iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
(32:33):
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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