September 8, 2017 • 43 mins
E&B look at the disturbing data around baby powder, Black women, and cancer.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is Brite, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. Today's episode is
kind of a bummer. Just to warn you in advance.
It's something that I got very angry and fired up
(00:27):
about as I was researching, and just got more and
more angry. Um. For many women for a very long time,
sprinkling talc powder or talcum powder or baby powder in
your underpants is a common and normal hygiene practice. Um.
There was a law student seen where a woman named
Jacqueline Fox had been using baby powder and her underpants
for forty years since she was a teenager, and it
(00:48):
was as common as brushing her teeth or washing her face. UM.
Fox later developed ovarian cancer, and her family after she died,
sued the company Johnson and Johnson and One because they
determined there might have been a link between her use
of baby powder in her underpants for many years and
her developing ovarian cancer. So today we're gonna be talking
(01:11):
through that lawsuit, talking through some of the science around
whether or not there actually is a link between using
talcum powder and your underpants and ovarian cancer, and why
this sort of exists in the first place. Why are
we all sprinkling powders on our underpants and an attempt
to make our body parts smell less like body parts exactly.
(01:31):
And I think what's so enraging about this lawsuit is
the evidence points to criminal negligence on the part of
Johnson and Johnson because they were aware of these linkages.
And even though the science isn't perfect, of course, but
you know, the link between the use of talcum powder
(01:52):
or baby powder by women in their general area and
their underpants UM has been connected to cancer and ovarian
cancer in particular. Even knowing that connection, Johnson and Johnson
was actively pursuing campaigns that targeted minority women, targeted women
with messages of you know, you need this product, especially UM,
(02:15):
because the way that your body exists as it is
is not good enough. And that's really one of the
most horrifying concerning and enraging under occurrence to this whole
conversation is the widespread assumption that yeah, women and your
body and your vagina are not pure, are not clean
or disgusting, and require products and the way that they
(02:36):
are UM that's sort of discussed assumption is really enraging
to me. It's really enraging, but it's also so common.
I definitely grew up thinking that I was supposed to
wear pantyliners that smelled like flowers so that my vagina
did not smell like a vagina. I was definitely taught,
particularly as a black woman, that something about our bodies
(02:57):
was different and more repugnant and we had to mask that.
I grew up the same way that the women in
this lawsuit. I grew up thinking that sprinkling baby powder
and your underpants was good hygiene, right, sort of. What
broke my heart about this quote from the woman who
ultimately died of a varying cancer. Um, she says, I
was raised up on it, she said in a deposition,
(03:17):
they were there to help you stay fresh and clean.
We ladies have to take care of ourselves. And that quote, um,
this idea that taking care of yourself as a woman
means masking the normal smell of your your genitals, and
that's supposed to be taking care of yourself, when in
fact it seems as though that is what led to
her death of a varying cancer. It's awful, and we
(03:39):
see a lot of that in advertising around women's products,
don't we, right, Like this is to enhance your natural
beauty or whatever it might be. And we have to
remember that someone's making a profit off of that assumption.
Someone's making your profit off of the assumption, and they
have a financial vested interest in us thinking of our
own bodies as unclean cure in need of fixing. Vaginas
(04:03):
smell like vaginas. I don't smell like baby powder. They
don't smell like roses. They smell like a gain. It's
not like a tide scented thing. Okay, this is your body, yes,
And a normal healthy vagina might not smell like an
autumn rain, right, And it's different than I also related
it to perfumes at large, Like there's a reality that
(04:24):
deodorant serves as a good function for your body. If
that's you know what I mean, that's your thing. And
perfumes can be fun. But perfumes and deodorizers and of
chemicals that we're applying to our reproductive organs, that's not
just a nice pick me up. That can be a
chemical uh risk that women are taking. Definitely and her son, right,
(04:46):
Marvin salter Um, the son of the woman who was
at the center of this lawsuit, really put it perfectly,
because making the assumption that baby powder is safe shouldn't
be a hard thing to do. He said, quote, it
has to be safe. It's put on babies, It's been
around forever. Why haven't we heard about any ill effects?
Which is exactly what I thought, right, And I think
(05:09):
the assumption that something you pull off the shelf in
the baby section of your grocery store or in the
beauty aisle, and companies are actively saying that putting this
in your underpants is not a bad idea, it's natural
to assume that that must be true. Well, I think,
like a lot of folks, I was totally thinking the
same thing. They couldn't sell this product, they couldn't market
(05:31):
it for use by infants if it wasn't safe. But
here's what that's not actually true. Baby powder is considered
a cosmetic which does not need to be approved by
the FDA under the nineteen Food Drug and Cosmetic Act.
The law was actually laid out in a three document
and only two of those pages were devoted to the
safety of cosmetics. And another sort of wrinkle of that
is that the American Academy of Pediatrics actually doesn't even
(05:53):
recommend the use of baby powder in between diaper changes
on actual babies. They don't suggest that people use it
because babies can inhale it and it can cause damage
to their lungs, right, I mean, there was We'll get
into the science on this a little bit later, but
there were findings in the research that show these tiny
little particles of baby powder of talcum powder can embed
(06:15):
themselves in your body. Where do you think that's going.
This is stuff that can embed itself like a hard
fibrous thing in your body um when it should be there,
whether it's in your lungs or in your cervix or
in your ovaries. So it's just it's horrifying that knowing
that a the government is not there to protect women
(06:35):
on cosmetics. The government literally does not seem to care
about cosmetics, which can have tons of toxins in them.
And by the way, that's an anomaly that's again part
of our American exceptionalism. Lots of other countries have forbidden
chemicals and their use in cosmetics and in women's um
(06:57):
pantiliners and tampons in other parts of the world that
are a okay to be flying off the shelves here
in the United states. Yeah, that is, you know, let
freedom ring die of lead poisoning because of your lipstick. Exactly.
Nothing that's freedom in America like the freedom to make
a profit off of chemicals that could potentially harm women.
But isn't that part of just letting your essence of
(07:20):
internal beauty shine through of enhancing your natural beauty. I mean,
it's worth it. If you go to an early grave
smelling like spring rain, right, maybe she's born in it,
or maybe it's a chemical chemical black Like, there's gonna
be some dark humor in this episode, y'all because it's
just so depressing. It's so depressing, and it's also just enraging.
(07:44):
It's so enraging. So just to level set for a
moment to get into the sort of nitty gritty of
of talcum powder. So, according to the American Cancer Society,
talcum powder is made from talc, a mineral made up
of mainly elements of magnesium, silicone, and oxygen. As a powder,
it absorbs moy shirt and helps cut down on friction,
making it useful for dry skin and preventing rashes. It's
(08:05):
commonly used in cosmetic products, which is baby powder and
adult body and facial powders, as well as a number
of other consumer products. Question on that, So men use
baby powder on their genitals? They do regularly? Am I
remembering that correctly? I remember. That's the thing. I remember
going to a music festival called Bonaru where all the
(08:25):
guys someone who brought up a thing of gold bond
powder that all the guys were using it on their crotches. Yeah,
that's a real thing, because we're we can't talk with
disgust about their bodies and we're not thinking, we don't
want to discuss your facial expression. It was memory because literally,
also Bonnary was this hot, sweaty festival and there was
a long discussion about ball chafing and ball sweat and
(08:48):
I was in this van full of guys. I just remember,
like in my mind, I was like, I'm in an
open field, I'm not here. No, in your mind, you
were like, I'm going to repurpose this information into a
podcast someday, because it's true, Like chafing is real, that's real.
Baby pattern is for Because there's not I mean, the
question becomes is this something that men should worry about too?
(09:09):
I don't. I mean, we didn't really come across that
one looking into this, But it's not like there are
orifices down there they could run into as well. But
do you think that that's a good question? Do you
think that men are taught that they're sweaty, you know, genitals?
But I taught myself are they taught the same way
that we're taught that that is unclean and gross and
(09:30):
repugnant and there's nothing worse than than being someone that
has smelly genitals? I feel like women are taught that
there's nothing more awful as a woman than being smelled.
I see what you're saying. Well, I think having a period,
having a mental cycle definitely adds to that anxiety. And
I would say I think it probably varies household to
(09:52):
household dramatically. But yeah, there's a whole consumer angle to
products that can make women feel like the way they
their bodies naturally smell are bad and here's a product
that's a solution to buy. Men don't get the hitting
that message over their head. I think like in the
same way that women too. Yeah, And I think I've
(10:12):
mentioned this in the episode we did around veganism. There
was this really awful trend going around social media with
young people called the Clean Panty Challenge, and it was
challenging young women to take pictures of the insides of
their panties to prove that they were unsullied and if
that meant they were clean or better the other women
who at the bottom of their the lining of their
(10:32):
panties was you know, blemished by some sort of liquid
or discharge. But again, it's normal for vaginas to have discharge.
So you're advocating for shaming people who have normal, healthy,
functioning body part. And something to note is if you
are a woman who is anxious or maybe your body
is changing down there and there are things happening that
(10:55):
seem unusual, like you're having a different discharge, that's that
does not look like a nor normal day in your panties.
You know, if there's a smell that doesn't seem right,
talk to your doctor. Don't mask it with some cheap
products you can buy off the shelves that the FDA
does not approve of or care about approving. Um. You know,
talk to your doctor and find out what is real
(11:16):
and don't assume that, oh, yeah, I just have you know,
something really like weird happening downstairs. That's a product can
solve for me. I think if there is something weird
happening um with your body, have a professional take a look,
or get to a minute clinic or whatever it might be.
Don't assume that this is like a normal part of
(11:37):
being a woman that needs to be solved. I have
a really gross story that might be tm I for
our listeners. I was wondering what share it? But then
people are going to write it and say, why did
you share that disgusting story? But it does end with
me going to a doctor, so I'm gonna say it. Um.
I had a bad yeast infection. And at the time,
(11:58):
this is when I was trying to go vie in.
At the time, I was on this kick of wellness
and cleanliness. I had gotten into like um, like drinking um. Yeah.
I was sort of like really on that vibe for
a hot minute. So when I had a yeast infection,
I knew it was a yeast infection. I saw that
using UM. And I don't know if this is accurate
or not, so who knows, don't I read someplace that
(12:21):
using unsweetened Plaine yogurt, dipping it into a dipping a
tampa in twitt and inserting it into yourself could help
cure a yeast infection, and I thought, oh great, so
I did that. The next day it had gotten worse.
So then I did some more researching and it said, oh,
putting an unpeeled piece of garlic in your vagina and
sleeping with it can help. That it was worse. So
(12:41):
then I went to the storm was like, it's time
for chemicals. I bought monist that which apparently a lot
of doctors don't recommend that you use those, like those
monastat creams that are supposed to cure a yeast infection
in one day. That can be really bad for your vagina,
such powerful cream. So then I used that. At this point,
I was like, it's time to get to a doctor.
When I went to the guy in ecologist, she was like,
(13:02):
she looked at she looked inside, and she said, well,
there's so much going on here. You put so many
things into your bega. I'm glad you finally talked about
professional And she was like, I've left to your own devices, Like,
what would you tried next? It was the most embarrassing thing.
She was like, well, I'm glad that you stopped putting
things into your progina and just went to the doctor.
(13:26):
I'm so sorry about I'm sorry if that was Tom.
I Well, first of all, these directions are the word
and that's a good example of a discharge that doesn't
feel same or smell normal. But here's the thing, it's
important to also remember that like, that's a good example
of what needs medical attention on occasion. Um, And just
(13:48):
how bad the advice of online gurus can be, especially
in the wellness phase. As we come back to you
again and again, Um, there's nothing like impure or you know,
purifying and detoxifying your he doesn't always jive with actual
medical advice. UM, but I get, I get what your
intent was, which was to avoid having to go to
(14:09):
a doctor, which is annoying and seemingly unnecessary, and having
to get prescription um antibiotics all the time isn't a
fun thing to do either, So it makes sense to
try to figure out your own solution. But just knowing
what your body's normal is and that normal might not
be the same as someone else as normal, like can
be really helpful and just gaining clarity on Okay, let's
(14:32):
get to know our vaginas on today's podcast, because I
think it's Emily Agoski who writes in her book come
as you are, Yes, you are normal, over and over
and over again. Everyone's parts down there are just arranged
a little differently. Everybody's chemical sort of reaction or or
um like pH situation down there is different. Um. But
(14:54):
knowing what's normal for you and really listening to your
body when it's asking for help is important. Yeah, my
body was. That was a cry for help, um or
just less tahiny you're getting ready for like if you
added a little I know a certain point. I think
(15:15):
the kind of college just made a joke that, oh,
if you add a little add a little ball vinigarrette,
you gotta have a real salad down there, got the garlic,
the yogurt. I'm sorry, I just had I had like
a flap for lunch, all right, can I I'm taking
I've taken a breath, y'all. So as you can sort
(15:36):
of tell, there is a lot of interesting burly information
about vaginas and what to put in them not to
put in them out there, as as my story I
think makes clear, we're gonna talk about some of that
data and why it's actually really confusing to know whether
or not things like powder or actually safe for our vaginas.
After a quick break and a message from our sponsor,
(16:04):
and we're back. So I mentioned before that some of
the data around talcum powder, whether or not it's safe,
whether or not it costs ovarian cancer is murky. Um.
We're gonna get into why that is, um, but you
should know that this is something folks have been studying
for a long time. Studies trying to find a link
between ovarian cancer and talc powder have been happening four decades.
(16:25):
Forty five years ago, British researchers analyzed thirteen ovarian tumors
and found talk particles quote deeply embedded in ten. The study,
published in nineteen seventy one, was the first to raise
the possibility that talk powder could pose a risk. In
a study in the Journal of Cancer by Daniel Kramer,
an epidemiologist at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, showed
(16:47):
the first statistical link between general talc use and ovarian cancer.
And to me, that's all the evidence I need. I'm
I know that you know, we want to be scientific
around here, and I know that replication is important, but
if they're looking at ovarian tumors and they find talk
particles embedded in there. I mean, where else are they
(17:07):
going to go? That's enough evidence for me that having
those particles floating around in your ovaries cannot be good
for them. Well, that's exactly it is that. Of course
it's important to look at data, look at the overwhelming data.
But it's one of those things where I think, why
risk it, Why risk getting ovarian cancer? If there might
be a link. And so I'm not saying that I'm
(17:29):
a scientist and that there is definitely a link. I'm
saying that enough people in the medical and scientific community
have raised the alarm, and I think that's that's reason
enough to sort of look twice how we're using this
product exactly. And there have been a lot more recent
studies linking ovarian cancer to the use of TALC powder
um In fact, the one we really want to dive
(17:50):
into is from the University of Virginia by Joellen Schildkraut,
an epidemiologist who let us study where her team interviewed
five four black women with ovarian cancer and seven hundred
forty five black women without the disease. What they found
is that nearly sixty three percent of the women with
ovarian cancer and fifty of the healthy ones, uh did
(18:14):
dust themselves with powder with baby powder. Um. And so
those numbers are concerning on two fronts to me, Bridge,
tell me, what do you think, because one majority of
black women report using baby powder to sort of keep
themselves fresh, dry, whatever down the air. Yeah, absolutely, the
data definitely shows that black women are using baby powder
(18:36):
in that way much more often than their white counterparts. Yeah.
And then the second, of course, is the correlation here,
although you know, you tell me what's statistically significant, But she,
the researcher um found it very concerning that sixty three
percent of those with ovarian cancer reported using the powder
compared to the control group without ovarian cancer had a
(18:57):
usage rate at fift One possible explanation for why this
study showed such a seemingly such a correlation between the
two is that she studied black women in particular, so
other studies did not necessarily use uh, you know, black women.
Her study pretty much focused on Black women, their use
of the the product and ovarian cancer. UM. So the
(19:21):
American Cancer Society, they acknowledge that the link between the two,
They kind of it's it's a little bit complicated. Yeah,
I mean black women are not studied enough like women
writ large in the scientific community. Black women in particular
are not um included in these clinical trials and in
medical studies UM as often as their white counterparts, which
(19:43):
is a big problem. And as we've discussed many times
on the show, and I love hearing from all of
our medical professionals who are listening, who tweet at us
and tell us more about UM other kinds of diseases
that present differently amongst women UM or have a specific
uh sort of population significance for women of color, and
(20:04):
how often those things go untreated because of the lack
of funding and research available for different populations. Totally, totally UM.
And really that's just another one of many reasons why
we should be studying different kinds of bodies, different races, UM,
different ethnicities, different folks along the gender spectrum. We should
be studying different kinds of bodies so we can get
(20:26):
a better understanding of how different things impact different bodies.
I mean, our our world is diverse, and the things
that inflict our bodies are also diverse, and we need
to have a better, more thorough understanding of how these
you know, these threats impact different kinds of bodies. I
wonder if there's any medical schools who are doing like,
who are bringing intersectionality into the medical education component, because
(20:50):
I would love to shout them out, you know what
I mean. I would love to find out what medical
schools are teaching doctors, um to and clinical researchers to
have an intersect and all ones totally. So. According to
the American Cancer Society, lab studies linking non as best
as talk with cancer are not conclusive. Studies that expose
lab animals to asbest as free talk in various ways
(21:12):
have had mixed results, with some showing tumor formation and
others not finding any. So that's another reason why UM
just specifically, this data is not conclusive. They also look
at studies where they rely on folks to self report
their use of things like baby powder, and those are
not always super reliable because maybe you misremember, maybe you
(21:33):
you're not you know, you don't actually know how much
you're using when you're using it. You're kind of getting
the reporting wrong. That's another reason why I think the
American Cancer Society is slow to say this, there's a
definite link. So right now, the International Agency for Research
on Cancer classifies general use of talk in a kind
of a vague way. They say, it's quote possibly carcinogenic,
(21:55):
but again, is that something you want to gamble with?
And just um clarify, when we talk about non asbestos
talcum powder, why do we even make that differentiation? Because
talcum powder that contains asbestos is generally understood to be
a carcinogenic, but no talc powder is sold in the
United States since nineteen seventy are supposed to have asbestos
(22:17):
in them? Yes, before the nineteen seventies, there was asbestos
in baby powder. Like what if that doesn't tell us anything?
It tells us Like that just goes to show you
how the f d A can be slow to figure
out what's slowly killing us. Definitely, And again, I mean
if I told the idea that it's being labeled as
possibly carcinogenic. If I told you something was if I
(22:40):
made you a meal and I said it's possibly deadly,
what do you eat it? You eat it with gusto?
Probably not right. And that's how strong this cultural pressure
is for women to feel gross about their own vaginas.
That's really how powerful that underlying assumption that the way
your vagina is or smell alls is you know, repulsive
(23:02):
and unacceptable. And that is a societally developed cultural um
assumption or cultural pressure that's put on women that just
isn't levied against men in the same exact kind of way. Totally, totally,
even even though we can all agree that like I
don't know, I mean, I don't want to say like
(23:22):
men's genitals aren't disgusting, you know what I mean? Or
I understand the repulse response or the Emily and A
Gosgee calls it the disgusted response in her book about
female sexuality. There is this accepted phenomenon that vaginas are gross,
that little girls even internalized in their teen years to
(23:43):
think that it's disgusting, and that if you feel gross
about a part of your own body, especially one that
is so key to pleasure in your life, that's gonna
inhibit your ability to actually have a healthy, productive, not productive,
but a hell the pleasurable sex life. Right, and one
of the scholars will talk more about later on in
(24:04):
the show actually gets this so right when she says,
if we teach women to be ashamed of their normal,
healthy vaginas, how are how are they supposed to feel
when if they have a problem with their vagina and
they already teach them that their health, the way their
vagina functions normally is something to be ashamed of. How
that's a terrible starting point. Absolutely so. Even though the
(24:24):
link between talc and ovarian cancer in the scientific community
may not be clear, there's still really vocal scientists and
researchers and doctors who are making a lot of noise
about this this risk. The researcher in charge of the
study from UVA that we were just talking about says,
I was acidic until these recent studies came out. As
(24:46):
you look across all these studies, I would say, why
use it? It's an avoidable risk for ovarian cancer. And
I think that's what it comes down to for me,
Why why use it? And others in the scientific community
actually go a lot further. Dr Daniel Kramer from bringing
in Women's Hospital up in Boston when he first reported
on this link between genital talc use and ovarian cancer
in two Since then, he's been calling for warning labels
(25:10):
like these these things should be disclaimers explicitly put on
talcum powder bottles, and this is not happening. And he's
been advocating for that ever since. Yeah, there was actually
a pretty recent editorial in a journal by Dr Stephen
Nat of the Women's College Research Institute in Toronto where
he said, in the interests of public health, I believe
(25:30):
we should caution women against using genital talcum powder UM.
He was not involved in the UVA study, but he
did look at the look at the results and said
it's disingenuous to state that there is no evidence that
talcs associated with ovarian cancer exactly. So that and that's
part of the reason I think that UM lawsuit came
down on the side of the claimant because there is
(25:51):
what is it like, there's not enough evidence to prove
beyond a reasonable doubt that Johnson and Johnson didn't know
about these risks and that the risks aren't real. This
is well beyond the reasonable doubt territory, right. And actually
you've seen cases earlier where UM lawsuits around talk pattern
yousevarian cancer were thrown out precisely because judges determined there
(26:13):
is it enough evidence, right exactly. And now I think
we've we've gone far beyond that point. There's well more
than enough evidence to say, hey, don't have your mother, sister, daughter, grandmother.
You know, nieces used this stuff in there in their genitals,
and it's not something we should be advocating for patients
or our children or our loved ones to be doing.
(26:34):
I think you're right, and so was Johnson and Johnson.
I think they were well beyond the point of a
reasonable doubt. Let's talk a little bit more about that
when we come back from a quick break, and we're
back and I really just have to shout out Bloomberg here,
because they're reporting on Johnson and Johnson really for me,
(26:57):
blew the lid off. They ended up publishing in an
internal Johnson and Johnson memo that seems to indicate the
company was pretty much aware of the potential links for
their product to be linked towards ovarian cancer. So the
title of the memo is major Opportunities and Major Obstacles,
which I feel like, I mean, come on, what a
title for a memo. Not the kind of memo you
(27:18):
would want to see leaked in a deposition of course. Um.
In this memo they acknowledged quote negative publicity from the
health community on TALC, including inhalation dust, negative doctor endorsement,
and cancer linkage. I like how they just throw that
in there as like a casual mention of cancer linkage
in a marketing memo on you know what, what people
(27:41):
should we get to endorse our products? And what might
you know what micro targeting strategies should we moved forward with?
And oh, by the way, there's a cancer link by
who's gonna be our spokesperson exactly which they go on
to talk about for targeting black and Latino women in particular.
Totally so, even understanding that there might be this cause
for concern about cancer linkage, that did not stop Johnson
(28:03):
and Johnson from targeting black and Hispanic women to account
for slumping sales. Um The memo used in court that
we just read from included a recommendation to quote investigate
ethnic African American and Hispanic opportunities to grow the franchise,
noting that these women accounted for a high proportion of
their sales. They've proposed going on to team up with
Ebony magazine suggesting promotions in churches, salons, and barbershops. And
(28:29):
while they're at it, maybe we can get a you know,
a perfect spokesperson like Patti LaBelle or a Wretha Franklin
as celebrity endorser. So important to note that neither of
those iconic powerhouse divas did this. Either of them went
on to be spokespeople for this campaign. So shout out
to Patti Labella Franklin. Um, I'm gonna say, Friends of
the Show, Yeah, let's do it. We're tight, you know.
(28:52):
I also think it's important to note that, at least
when I was growing up, brands like Johnson and Johnson's
baby Powder and Shower to Shower which used to be
owned by Onunson and Johnson for a while. Um, those
are legacy brands in a black communities. And I think
this idea that we were being targeted for something that
could make us sick and kill us is in raging,
Like the idea that this company would recognize that black
(29:15):
women are feeling more anxious about their bodies than their
white counterparts. They spend more money on products to deal
with you know, body odor and things like that cosmetics. Um,
the fact that these companies seized on that and really
sort of I would say, preyed on us, target us
in rage of me. Absolutely, and in fact, black women
have been found to spend about four times as much
(29:37):
as white women when it comes to expenses on hair,
and twice as many black women douche and deodorize when
you know, downstairs, when compared to their white counterparts, according
to research from gw University, and so looking at those
humongous disparities, part of me wants to take the economic
justice route and say, these are already women who are
(29:59):
underpaid chronically talk about a lack of equal pay for
women of color, and then, to make matters worse, we
see these huge disparities based on outdated, untrue, unfair stereotypes
around body cleanliness that make these women feel especially preyed
upon and liable to then feel pressured to buy products
(30:19):
that deodorize their body. And it's been well established that douching,
by the way, let's just add this in here, is
not exactly a good thing for you, exactly. I mean,
going back to that study im gw UM, those researchers
found that like baby powder, over the counterproducts like douches,
national deodorizers and things like that contain ingredients um that
are more likely to be linked to cancer, among other
(30:39):
health risks not listed on the labels. So basically, they're
being pressured because of unfair, racist, untrue stereotypes about their
bodies to consume things that are actually making them very sick, exactly.
And there was a really compelling article about um those
gross stereotypes and how rooted in our history in the
(31:01):
United States. They are called an odor of racism vaginal
deodorance in African American Beauty, Culture and Advertising from the
Journal of Advertising, Society and Review by Michelle Ferranti. In
that article, she writes, quote, for many recently emancipated African Americans,
a clean and odor free body signified personal progress and
(31:22):
enterprise and the hope for racial assimilation. And then she
goes on to point out that the first documented reference
to douching comes in an eighteen o three medical manual
for the treatment of West Indian slaves that lists excessive
national discharge as a common complaint and prescribes twice daily douching,
which we know is bad for you. This is the
(31:43):
most I think horrifying part of that entire article is like,
this comes from a manual on how to treat human
beings back at a time when these human beings were
treated like livestock. And oh, by the way, even at
that point, we can you know, stereotype how these women's
bodies were naturally functioning as somehow impure or bad, which,
(32:04):
by the way, it goes into the entire racist undercurrent
here that's trying to dehumanize these women to begin with totally,
and I think that is exactly it. It's this idea
that is so pervasive that it's been with us since,
you know, since it's been it's been ingrained in the
fabric of America that if you were a freed slave
and you wanted to signal to others that you were,
(32:25):
you know, taking good care of yourself and that you
were ready for you know, it's it's so sad. Even
just saying this out loud, it makes it breaks my
heart because I can imagine these people wanting to signal
to those around them that they were deserving a full rights,
a full personhood, and going out of their way to
signal to others like hey, I keep my body clean,
(32:45):
I smell great, blah blah blah, that that is a
way of signaling that we are deserving of something that
should just be born with you. You should just be
born with full personhood and the full rights that you
get with citizenship. And they were basedically making themselves sick
to prove something that should have just been innate with
being humans. And that's like what comes from historical institutions
(33:09):
like slavery that are founded on the dehumanization of human
beings exactly. And for those of us who are feeling
squeamish about this in in light of the country that
we live in and and it's it's hard to justify
I get it. It's hard to justify and reconcile patriotism
with these with the fact that our country was founded
(33:31):
with the institution of slavery behind it. But here's a
quote to chew on for a second from a founding
father you might have heard of, Thomas Jefferson. Okay. Thomas
Jefferson is on the record as having said that black
women have a quote strong and very disagreeable odor. Okay.
So this this all sort of comes back to this
(33:53):
idea that there's this misogynist twist to racism from the
founding of our country on forward that not only posits
this idea, uh, this racist idea that blacks Reek and
as Omissa Kay Natasha Tinsley right, she's a professor of
African and African diaspora studies at the University of Texas
(34:16):
in Austin. She writes in an article for Time that, quote,
if racism posits that blacks reek, and misogyny teaches us
that vaginas are rank, how difficult does it become for
black women to love the scent of our healthy vaginas?
I think she hits the nail right on the head,
I mean, and that's what infuriates me so much about
(34:37):
this is that I see that companies like Johnson and
Johnson are using that anxiety that Black women are ingrained with,
that that that's rooted in racism and slavery and all
this awful stuff to sell us products that might kill us,
that lines their pockets exactly exactly. And she goes on
in that article to say, Johnson and Johnson and other
companies are ready to profit from these myths of the
(34:59):
excessive black china. They're willing to capitalize on our internalized
misogynour even if we die in the process. For decades,
companies including Johnson and Johnson continued marketing to encourage Black
women to spend money on talk powder, which could cause
cancer and our reproductive organs, even as they promised to
quote freshen them because the buyers were women. They were
the advertiser's targets. Because they were women, they were vulnerable
(35:21):
to the side effects that the company's never even exposed. Disgusting.
It's disgusting, and it's infuriating. And I think being told
to have this anxiety internalized about our own bodies and
then using that anxiety against us to line your pockets
and we get killed in the process. I can't even
get my head around it. It just does not get
worse than that. And you know, some jerk got promoted
(35:43):
and got a corner office for the winning marketing strategy
that got more black women to buy this stuff. Definitely
just what happens. And I would venture to guess it
wasn't a black woman kidding, of course not, of course not.
So it's just it is. It is. It's everything that
I hate it about. Racism meets misogyny meets capitalism in
(36:03):
the most disgusting way. It is. It is. And I
think some of you out there might be thinking, well,
why is it so bad to for a company to,
you know, know, their based audience, if their based audiences
black women, isn't it respectful to you know, advertise that
that specific audience, if they're buying it, why not advertise
to that? Exactly right, I could, I could actually see
people making that argument. But as Robin Means, Coleman, a
(36:25):
professor of Communication studies and African American Studies at University
of Michigan, says, we actually do want that, but we
do not want companies to market potentially carcinergetic products to us.
And so I think as as women, as women of color,
we do want companies to market to us, but that
should not include marketing products to us that might get
us killed. It's poison, and that's where the criminal negligence
(36:46):
came in. That's where the court's ruled that knowing of
this potential risk and ignoring that, not alerting clients to that,
not alerting the public to that, and aggressively targeting communities
of color is what put Johnson and Johnson in the
hot seat totally. So when the courts did rule on
this case, a verdict which was decided by I attended
(37:09):
to vote, included ten million in compensatory damages and another
sixty two million in punitive damages, way more than the
attorneys were even asking for. But the court sent a
very clear message to companies like Johnson and Johnson that
this behavior was negligent and worth punishment for. And at
(37:30):
that point Salter, the son of the then deceased woman
who had lost her life to ovarian cancer, bowed his
head and wept in court, you know. And it's like,
of course, that's great. Those millions are fine, but nothing
will bring your mother back. I'm sure he would much
rather have his mom back that. Um. What I want
(37:52):
to just drive home about this whole situation is that
in the end, we all need to be more comfortable
with our bodies, particularly women of color. I think that
we need to acknowledge that, you know, vaginas are not
supposed to smell like baby powder. They're not supposed to
smell like an autumn rain. They're supposed to smell like vaginas.
And I think, going back to that time article that
um Tinsley wrote, why do black women work so hard
(38:12):
to keep our vaginas from smelling like we ever bleed orgasm,
sweat or eat catfish? And we do those things and
our our bodies, because they are bodies that function normally,
are going to reflect them in odor. I think there
is a totally understandable response from women who feel uncomfortable
with vaginal odor, right, Like, that is the thing that
(38:34):
people are uncomfortable with. I think it's worth asking you
why you're uncomfortable with that. If that's your experience, it's
worth talking to your doctor about it and finding out.
You know, we have a perception of what is normal
that is not always granted in truth. We have a
message that's marketed to women about what the normal, perfect
body should look and smell like that we know is
(38:58):
not always close to what we reality would actually have
to say about that, or what a medical professional would
have to say about it. So, if you're ever feeling
insecure about your body odor, talk to a professional, talk
to a medical professional, and know that that insecurity might
be you wrestling with these internalized messages that are put
(39:20):
in place in our media to actually drive a profit
home for somebody. I mean, that's part of the trip
of living in a capitalist, patriarchal, ft up society that
we are all unpacking this stuff all the time we
internalized them. I definitely have internalized some messed up stuff
about my own body, just based on the messages I've
gotten since childhood. Anybody would I think it's it's fair.
(39:43):
That is a fair outcome. And I think it's about
not getting caught up in it and stopping and taking
a beat and saying, yeah, why do I feel that
way about my body? Why am I having this reaction?
Um and unpacking it a little bit? And where did
I learn to feel disgusted about my own body? And
when did you learn? I think the messages get passed
down from parent to child in and think about what
(40:06):
what you know? Are you having a repulse response, like
are you having a disgusted response to a part of
your body? And if you're doing that vocally in front
of other people, including in front of impressionable young ones,
like those are the messages that young ones around you
are going to grow up thinking that this is normal
to feel grossed out about a part of my body.
And I would argue that that is a shame creating experience.
(40:29):
It definitely is. And again, my mom is a medical
professional and she definitely I definitely remember her putting powder
in her underpants. I hope to god she's not doing
it now, and if she is, I have to stop her.
I think this is the moment, like, if you are
listening to this episode, and you are using talc powder
in your underpants, or your sister is, maybe your grandma,
that's a little bit old school. Your nana is doing it,
(40:50):
you're whoever in your life is doing it. Make sure
they know that there are risks there. And even though
I know, I know, we have not, they have not
made the scientific link here. Is it worth it? Is
it worth having something that the American Cancer Society says
is quote possibly carcinergetic. Is it worth having that in
such an intimate area? And I think the answer is no.
(41:11):
And if you're nana, sister, friend, whoever really really really
needs to have powder in their underpants to feel clean,
what can they do? Well? The good news is there
is an alternative that won't give you cancer, uh and
that is actually sold on the shelves right around the
same section. So if you are looking at a powder
(41:32):
that's safer for that kind of use, um, know that
you can find corn starch based powders. And there is
no study showing that corn starch poses any of those
potential risks the American Cancer Society has been suggesting about
baby powder. So for women who are looking for an alternative,
know that some of Johnson and Johnson's competitors provide powders
(41:55):
that that are really made of corn starch only, So
do your due diligence, do your search, find out what
is you know actually medically safe before putting it in
anywhere near or downstairs and um, corn starch based powders
are a good place to start if that's if that's
your jam, So Svendy listeners, we want to hear from you.
(42:16):
What what came up for you during this episode? Have
you used baby powder yourself to feel more comfortable with
the way that your body naturally exists? And if so,
what are some of the ways that you have grown
up with the messages that we receive on those fronts
and how how have you internalized or overcome some of
(42:36):
these negative impressions. We'd love to hear from you, But ye,
where can they hit us up? They can hit us
up on Instagram at stuff mom Ever Told You, on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and as always on email
old fashioned style at mom stuff at how stuff works
dot com.
Hey, this is Emily, and this is Brite, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. Today's episode is
kind of a bummer. Just to warn you in advance.
It's something that I got very angry and fired up
(00:27):
about as I was researching, and just got more and
more angry. Um. For many women for a very long time,
sprinkling talc powder or talcum powder or baby powder in
your underpants is a common and normal hygiene practice. Um.
There was a law student seen where a woman named
Jacqueline Fox had been using baby powder and her underpants
for forty years since she was a teenager, and it
(00:48):
was as common as brushing her teeth or washing her face. UM.
Fox later developed ovarian cancer, and her family after she died,
sued the company Johnson and Johnson and One because they
determined there might have been a link between her use
of baby powder in her underpants for many years and
her developing ovarian cancer. So today we're gonna be talking
(01:11):
through that lawsuit, talking through some of the science around
whether or not there actually is a link between using
talcum powder and your underpants and ovarian cancer, and why
this sort of exists in the first place. Why are
we all sprinkling powders on our underpants and an attempt
to make our body parts smell less like body parts exactly.
(01:31):
And I think what's so enraging about this lawsuit is
the evidence points to criminal negligence on the part of
Johnson and Johnson because they were aware of these linkages.
And even though the science isn't perfect, of course, but
you know, the link between the use of talcum powder
(01:52):
or baby powder by women in their general area and
their underpants UM has been connected to cancer and ovarian
cancer in particular. Even knowing that connection, Johnson and Johnson
was actively pursuing campaigns that targeted minority women, targeted women
with messages of you know, you need this product, especially UM,
(02:15):
because the way that your body exists as it is
is not good enough. And that's really one of the
most horrifying concerning and enraging under occurrence to this whole
conversation is the widespread assumption that yeah, women and your
body and your vagina are not pure, are not clean
or disgusting, and require products and the way that they
(02:36):
are UM that's sort of discussed assumption is really enraging
to me. It's really enraging, but it's also so common.
I definitely grew up thinking that I was supposed to
wear pantyliners that smelled like flowers so that my vagina
did not smell like a vagina. I was definitely taught,
particularly as a black woman, that something about our bodies
(02:57):
was different and more repugnant and we had to mask that.
I grew up the same way that the women in
this lawsuit. I grew up thinking that sprinkling baby powder
and your underpants was good hygiene, right, sort of. What
broke my heart about this quote from the woman who
ultimately died of a varying cancer. Um, she says, I
was raised up on it, she said in a deposition,
(03:17):
they were there to help you stay fresh and clean.
We ladies have to take care of ourselves. And that quote, um,
this idea that taking care of yourself as a woman
means masking the normal smell of your your genitals, and
that's supposed to be taking care of yourself, when in
fact it seems as though that is what led to
her death of a varying cancer. It's awful, and we
(03:39):
see a lot of that in advertising around women's products,
don't we, right, Like this is to enhance your natural
beauty or whatever it might be. And we have to
remember that someone's making a profit off of that assumption.
Someone's making your profit off of the assumption, and they
have a financial vested interest in us thinking of our
own bodies as unclean cure in need of fixing. Vaginas
(04:03):
smell like vaginas. I don't smell like baby powder. They
don't smell like roses. They smell like a gain. It's
not like a tide scented thing. Okay, this is your body, yes,
And a normal healthy vagina might not smell like an
autumn rain, right, And it's different than I also related
it to perfumes at large, Like there's a reality that
(04:24):
deodorant serves as a good function for your body. If
that's you know what I mean, that's your thing. And
perfumes can be fun. But perfumes and deodorizers and of
chemicals that we're applying to our reproductive organs, that's not
just a nice pick me up. That can be a
chemical uh risk that women are taking. Definitely and her son, right,
(04:46):
Marvin salter Um, the son of the woman who was
at the center of this lawsuit, really put it perfectly,
because making the assumption that baby powder is safe shouldn't
be a hard thing to do. He said, quote, it
has to be safe. It's put on babies, It's been
around forever. Why haven't we heard about any ill effects?
Which is exactly what I thought, right, And I think
(05:09):
the assumption that something you pull off the shelf in
the baby section of your grocery store or in the
beauty aisle, and companies are actively saying that putting this
in your underpants is not a bad idea, it's natural
to assume that that must be true. Well, I think,
like a lot of folks, I was totally thinking the
same thing. They couldn't sell this product, they couldn't market
(05:31):
it for use by infants if it wasn't safe. But
here's what that's not actually true. Baby powder is considered
a cosmetic which does not need to be approved by
the FDA under the nineteen Food Drug and Cosmetic Act.
The law was actually laid out in a three document
and only two of those pages were devoted to the
safety of cosmetics. And another sort of wrinkle of that
is that the American Academy of Pediatrics actually doesn't even
(05:53):
recommend the use of baby powder in between diaper changes
on actual babies. They don't suggest that people use it
because babies can inhale it and it can cause damage
to their lungs, right, I mean, there was We'll get
into the science on this a little bit later, but
there were findings in the research that show these tiny
little particles of baby powder of talcum powder can embed
(06:15):
themselves in your body. Where do you think that's going.
This is stuff that can embed itself like a hard
fibrous thing in your body um when it should be there,
whether it's in your lungs or in your cervix or
in your ovaries. So it's just it's horrifying that knowing
that a the government is not there to protect women
(06:35):
on cosmetics. The government literally does not seem to care
about cosmetics, which can have tons of toxins in them.
And by the way, that's an anomaly that's again part
of our American exceptionalism. Lots of other countries have forbidden
chemicals and their use in cosmetics and in women's um
(06:57):
pantiliners and tampons in other parts of the world that
are a okay to be flying off the shelves here
in the United states. Yeah, that is, you know, let
freedom ring die of lead poisoning because of your lipstick. Exactly.
Nothing that's freedom in America like the freedom to make
a profit off of chemicals that could potentially harm women.
But isn't that part of just letting your essence of
(07:20):
internal beauty shine through of enhancing your natural beauty. I mean,
it's worth it. If you go to an early grave
smelling like spring rain, right, maybe she's born in it,
or maybe it's a chemical chemical black Like, there's gonna
be some dark humor in this episode, y'all because it's
just so depressing. It's so depressing, and it's also just enraging.
(07:44):
It's so enraging. So just to level set for a
moment to get into the sort of nitty gritty of
of talcum powder. So, according to the American Cancer Society,
talcum powder is made from talc, a mineral made up
of mainly elements of magnesium, silicone, and oxygen. As a powder,
it absorbs moy shirt and helps cut down on friction,
making it useful for dry skin and preventing rashes. It's
(08:05):
commonly used in cosmetic products, which is baby powder and
adult body and facial powders, as well as a number
of other consumer products. Question on that, So men use
baby powder on their genitals? They do regularly? Am I
remembering that correctly? I remember. That's the thing. I remember
going to a music festival called Bonaru where all the
(08:25):
guys someone who brought up a thing of gold bond
powder that all the guys were using it on their crotches. Yeah,
that's a real thing, because we're we can't talk with
disgust about their bodies and we're not thinking, we don't
want to discuss your facial expression. It was memory because literally,
also Bonnary was this hot, sweaty festival and there was
a long discussion about ball chafing and ball sweat and
(08:48):
I was in this van full of guys. I just remember,
like in my mind, I was like, I'm in an
open field, I'm not here. No, in your mind, you
were like, I'm going to repurpose this information into a
podcast someday, because it's true, Like chafing is real, that's real.
Baby pattern is for Because there's not I mean, the
question becomes is this something that men should worry about too?
(09:09):
I don't. I mean, we didn't really come across that
one looking into this, But it's not like there are
orifices down there they could run into as well. But
do you think that that's a good question? Do you
think that men are taught that they're sweaty, you know, genitals?
But I taught myself are they taught the same way
that we're taught that that is unclean and gross and
(09:30):
repugnant and there's nothing worse than than being someone that
has smelly genitals? I feel like women are taught that
there's nothing more awful as a woman than being smelled.
I see what you're saying. Well, I think having a period,
having a mental cycle definitely adds to that anxiety. And
I would say I think it probably varies household to
(09:52):
household dramatically. But yeah, there's a whole consumer angle to
products that can make women feel like the way they
their bodies naturally smell are bad and here's a product
that's a solution to buy. Men don't get the hitting
that message over their head. I think like in the
same way that women too. Yeah, And I think I've
(10:12):
mentioned this in the episode we did around veganism. There
was this really awful trend going around social media with
young people called the Clean Panty Challenge, and it was
challenging young women to take pictures of the insides of
their panties to prove that they were unsullied and if
that meant they were clean or better the other women
who at the bottom of their the lining of their
(10:32):
panties was you know, blemished by some sort of liquid
or discharge. But again, it's normal for vaginas to have discharge.
So you're advocating for shaming people who have normal, healthy,
functioning body part. And something to note is if you
are a woman who is anxious or maybe your body
is changing down there and there are things happening that
(10:55):
seem unusual, like you're having a different discharge, that's that
does not look like a nor normal day in your panties.
You know, if there's a smell that doesn't seem right,
talk to your doctor. Don't mask it with some cheap
products you can buy off the shelves that the FDA
does not approve of or care about approving. Um. You know,
talk to your doctor and find out what is real
(11:16):
and don't assume that, oh, yeah, I just have you know,
something really like weird happening downstairs. That's a product can
solve for me. I think if there is something weird
happening um with your body, have a professional take a look,
or get to a minute clinic or whatever it might be.
Don't assume that this is like a normal part of
(11:37):
being a woman that needs to be solved. I have
a really gross story that might be tm I for
our listeners. I was wondering what share it? But then
people are going to write it and say, why did
you share that disgusting story? But it does end with
me going to a doctor, so I'm gonna say it. Um.
I had a bad yeast infection. And at the time,
(11:58):
this is when I was trying to go vie in.
At the time, I was on this kick of wellness
and cleanliness. I had gotten into like um, like drinking um. Yeah.
I was sort of like really on that vibe for
a hot minute. So when I had a yeast infection,
I knew it was a yeast infection. I saw that
using UM. And I don't know if this is accurate
or not, so who knows, don't I read someplace that
(12:21):
using unsweetened Plaine yogurt, dipping it into a dipping a
tampa in twitt and inserting it into yourself could help
cure a yeast infection, and I thought, oh great, so
I did that. The next day it had gotten worse.
So then I did some more researching and it said, oh,
putting an unpeeled piece of garlic in your vagina and
sleeping with it can help. That it was worse. So
(12:41):
then I went to the storm was like, it's time
for chemicals. I bought monist that which apparently a lot
of doctors don't recommend that you use those, like those
monastat creams that are supposed to cure a yeast infection
in one day. That can be really bad for your vagina,
such powerful cream. So then I used that. At this point,
I was like, it's time to get to a doctor.
When I went to the guy in ecologist, she was like,
(13:02):
she looked at she looked inside, and she said, well,
there's so much going on here. You put so many
things into your bega. I'm glad you finally talked about
professional And she was like, I've left to your own devices, Like,
what would you tried next? It was the most embarrassing thing.
She was like, well, I'm glad that you stopped putting
things into your progina and just went to the doctor.
(13:26):
I'm so sorry about I'm sorry if that was Tom.
I Well, first of all, these directions are the word
and that's a good example of a discharge that doesn't
feel same or smell normal. But here's the thing, it's
important to also remember that like, that's a good example
of what needs medical attention on occasion. Um, And just
(13:48):
how bad the advice of online gurus can be, especially
in the wellness phase. As we come back to you
again and again, Um, there's nothing like impure or you know,
purifying and detoxifying your he doesn't always jive with actual
medical advice. UM, but I get, I get what your
intent was, which was to avoid having to go to
(14:09):
a doctor, which is annoying and seemingly unnecessary, and having
to get prescription um antibiotics all the time isn't a
fun thing to do either, So it makes sense to
try to figure out your own solution. But just knowing
what your body's normal is and that normal might not
be the same as someone else as normal, like can
be really helpful and just gaining clarity on Okay, let's
(14:32):
get to know our vaginas on today's podcast, because I
think it's Emily Agoski who writes in her book come
as you are, Yes, you are normal, over and over
and over again. Everyone's parts down there are just arranged
a little differently. Everybody's chemical sort of reaction or or
um like pH situation down there is different. Um. But
(14:54):
knowing what's normal for you and really listening to your
body when it's asking for help is important. Yeah, my
body was. That was a cry for help, um or
just less tahiny you're getting ready for like if you
added a little I know a certain point. I think
(15:15):
the kind of college just made a joke that, oh,
if you add a little add a little ball vinigarrette,
you gotta have a real salad down there, got the garlic,
the yogurt. I'm sorry, I just had I had like
a flap for lunch, all right, can I I'm taking
I've taken a breath, y'all. So as you can sort
(15:36):
of tell, there is a lot of interesting burly information
about vaginas and what to put in them not to
put in them out there, as as my story I
think makes clear, we're gonna talk about some of that
data and why it's actually really confusing to know whether
or not things like powder or actually safe for our vaginas.
After a quick break and a message from our sponsor,
(16:04):
and we're back. So I mentioned before that some of
the data around talcum powder, whether or not it's safe,
whether or not it costs ovarian cancer is murky. Um.
We're gonna get into why that is, um, but you
should know that this is something folks have been studying
for a long time. Studies trying to find a link
between ovarian cancer and talc powder have been happening four decades.
(16:25):
Forty five years ago, British researchers analyzed thirteen ovarian tumors
and found talk particles quote deeply embedded in ten. The study,
published in nineteen seventy one, was the first to raise
the possibility that talk powder could pose a risk. In
a study in the Journal of Cancer by Daniel Kramer,
an epidemiologist at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, showed
(16:47):
the first statistical link between general talc use and ovarian cancer.
And to me, that's all the evidence I need. I'm
I know that you know, we want to be scientific
around here, and I know that replication is important, but
if they're looking at ovarian tumors and they find talk
particles embedded in there. I mean, where else are they
(17:07):
going to go? That's enough evidence for me that having
those particles floating around in your ovaries cannot be good
for them. Well, that's exactly it is that. Of course
it's important to look at data, look at the overwhelming data.
But it's one of those things where I think, why
risk it, Why risk getting ovarian cancer? If there might
be a link. And so I'm not saying that I'm
(17:29):
a scientist and that there is definitely a link. I'm
saying that enough people in the medical and scientific community
have raised the alarm, and I think that's that's reason
enough to sort of look twice how we're using this
product exactly. And there have been a lot more recent
studies linking ovarian cancer to the use of TALC powder
um In fact, the one we really want to dive
(17:50):
into is from the University of Virginia by Joellen Schildkraut,
an epidemiologist who let us study where her team interviewed
five four black women with ovarian cancer and seven hundred
forty five black women without the disease. What they found
is that nearly sixty three percent of the women with
ovarian cancer and fifty of the healthy ones, uh did
(18:14):
dust themselves with powder with baby powder. Um. And so
those numbers are concerning on two fronts to me, Bridge,
tell me, what do you think, because one majority of
black women report using baby powder to sort of keep
themselves fresh, dry, whatever down the air. Yeah, absolutely, the
data definitely shows that black women are using baby powder
(18:36):
in that way much more often than their white counterparts. Yeah.
And then the second, of course, is the correlation here,
although you know, you tell me what's statistically significant, But she,
the researcher um found it very concerning that sixty three
percent of those with ovarian cancer reported using the powder
compared to the control group without ovarian cancer had a
(18:57):
usage rate at fift One possible explanation for why this
study showed such a seemingly such a correlation between the
two is that she studied black women in particular, so
other studies did not necessarily use uh, you know, black women.
Her study pretty much focused on Black women, their use
of the the product and ovarian cancer. UM. So the
(19:21):
American Cancer Society, they acknowledge that the link between the two,
They kind of it's it's a little bit complicated. Yeah,
I mean black women are not studied enough like women
writ large in the scientific community. Black women in particular
are not um included in these clinical trials and in
medical studies UM as often as their white counterparts, which
(19:43):
is a big problem. And as we've discussed many times
on the show, and I love hearing from all of
our medical professionals who are listening, who tweet at us
and tell us more about UM other kinds of diseases
that present differently amongst women UM or have a specific
uh sort of population significance for women of color, and
(20:04):
how often those things go untreated because of the lack
of funding and research available for different populations. Totally, totally UM.
And really that's just another one of many reasons why
we should be studying different kinds of bodies, different races, UM,
different ethnicities, different folks along the gender spectrum. We should
be studying different kinds of bodies so we can get
(20:26):
a better understanding of how different things impact different bodies.
I mean, our our world is diverse, and the things
that inflict our bodies are also diverse, and we need
to have a better, more thorough understanding of how these
you know, these threats impact different kinds of bodies. I
wonder if there's any medical schools who are doing like,
who are bringing intersectionality into the medical education component, because
(20:50):
I would love to shout them out, you know what
I mean. I would love to find out what medical
schools are teaching doctors, um to and clinical researchers to
have an intersect and all ones totally. So. According to
the American Cancer Society, lab studies linking non as best
as talk with cancer are not conclusive. Studies that expose
lab animals to asbest as free talk in various ways
(21:12):
have had mixed results, with some showing tumor formation and
others not finding any. So that's another reason why UM
just specifically, this data is not conclusive. They also look
at studies where they rely on folks to self report
their use of things like baby powder, and those are
not always super reliable because maybe you misremember, maybe you
(21:33):
you're not you know, you don't actually know how much
you're using when you're using it. You're kind of getting
the reporting wrong. That's another reason why I think the
American Cancer Society is slow to say this, there's a
definite link. So right now, the International Agency for Research
on Cancer classifies general use of talk in a kind
of a vague way. They say, it's quote possibly carcinogenic,
(21:55):
but again, is that something you want to gamble with?
And just um clarify, when we talk about non asbestos
talcum powder, why do we even make that differentiation? Because
talcum powder that contains asbestos is generally understood to be
a carcinogenic, but no talc powder is sold in the
United States since nineteen seventy are supposed to have asbestos
(22:17):
in them? Yes, before the nineteen seventies, there was asbestos
in baby powder. Like what if that doesn't tell us anything?
It tells us Like that just goes to show you
how the f d A can be slow to figure
out what's slowly killing us. Definitely, And again, I mean
if I told the idea that it's being labeled as
possibly carcinogenic. If I told you something was if I
(22:40):
made you a meal and I said it's possibly deadly,
what do you eat it? You eat it with gusto?
Probably not right. And that's how strong this cultural pressure
is for women to feel gross about their own vaginas.
That's really how powerful that underlying assumption that the way
your vagina is or smell alls is you know, repulsive
(23:02):
and unacceptable. And that is a societally developed cultural um
assumption or cultural pressure that's put on women that just
isn't levied against men in the same exact kind of way. Totally, totally,
even even though we can all agree that like I
don't know, I mean, I don't want to say like
(23:22):
men's genitals aren't disgusting, you know what I mean? Or
I understand the repulse response or the Emily and A
Gosgee calls it the disgusted response in her book about
female sexuality. There is this accepted phenomenon that vaginas are gross,
that little girls even internalized in their teen years to
(23:43):
think that it's disgusting, and that if you feel gross
about a part of your own body, especially one that
is so key to pleasure in your life, that's gonna
inhibit your ability to actually have a healthy, productive, not productive,
but a hell the pleasurable sex life. Right, and one
of the scholars will talk more about later on in
(24:04):
the show actually gets this so right when she says,
if we teach women to be ashamed of their normal,
healthy vaginas, how are how are they supposed to feel
when if they have a problem with their vagina and
they already teach them that their health, the way their
vagina functions normally is something to be ashamed of. How
that's a terrible starting point. Absolutely so. Even though the
(24:24):
link between talc and ovarian cancer in the scientific community
may not be clear, there's still really vocal scientists and
researchers and doctors who are making a lot of noise
about this this risk. The researcher in charge of the
study from UVA that we were just talking about says,
I was acidic until these recent studies came out. As
(24:46):
you look across all these studies, I would say, why
use it? It's an avoidable risk for ovarian cancer. And
I think that's what it comes down to for me,
Why why use it? And others in the scientific community
actually go a lot further. Dr Daniel Kramer from bringing
in Women's Hospital up in Boston when he first reported
on this link between genital talc use and ovarian cancer
in two Since then, he's been calling for warning labels
(25:10):
like these these things should be disclaimers explicitly put on
talcum powder bottles, and this is not happening. And he's
been advocating for that ever since. Yeah, there was actually
a pretty recent editorial in a journal by Dr Stephen
Nat of the Women's College Research Institute in Toronto where
he said, in the interests of public health, I believe
(25:30):
we should caution women against using genital talcum powder UM.
He was not involved in the UVA study, but he
did look at the look at the results and said
it's disingenuous to state that there is no evidence that
talcs associated with ovarian cancer exactly. So that and that's
part of the reason I think that UM lawsuit came
down on the side of the claimant because there is
(25:51):
what is it like, there's not enough evidence to prove
beyond a reasonable doubt that Johnson and Johnson didn't know
about these risks and that the risks aren't real. This
is well beyond the reasonable doubt territory, right. And actually
you've seen cases earlier where UM lawsuits around talk pattern
yousevarian cancer were thrown out precisely because judges determined there
(26:13):
is it enough evidence, right exactly. And now I think
we've we've gone far beyond that point. There's well more
than enough evidence to say, hey, don't have your mother, sister, daughter, grandmother.
You know, nieces used this stuff in there in their genitals,
and it's not something we should be advocating for patients
or our children or our loved ones to be doing.
(26:34):
I think you're right, and so was Johnson and Johnson.
I think they were well beyond the point of a
reasonable doubt. Let's talk a little bit more about that
when we come back from a quick break, and we're
back and I really just have to shout out Bloomberg here,
because they're reporting on Johnson and Johnson really for me,
(26:57):
blew the lid off. They ended up publishing in an
internal Johnson and Johnson memo that seems to indicate the
company was pretty much aware of the potential links for
their product to be linked towards ovarian cancer. So the
title of the memo is major Opportunities and Major Obstacles,
which I feel like, I mean, come on, what a
title for a memo. Not the kind of memo you
(27:18):
would want to see leaked in a deposition of course. Um.
In this memo they acknowledged quote negative publicity from the
health community on TALC, including inhalation dust, negative doctor endorsement,
and cancer linkage. I like how they just throw that
in there as like a casual mention of cancer linkage
in a marketing memo on you know what, what people
(27:41):
should we get to endorse our products? And what might
you know what micro targeting strategies should we moved forward with?
And oh, by the way, there's a cancer link by
who's gonna be our spokesperson exactly which they go on
to talk about for targeting black and Latino women in particular.
Totally so, even understanding that there might be this cause
for concern about cancer linkage, that did not stop Johnson
(28:03):
and Johnson from targeting black and Hispanic women to account
for slumping sales. Um The memo used in court that
we just read from included a recommendation to quote investigate
ethnic African American and Hispanic opportunities to grow the franchise,
noting that these women accounted for a high proportion of
their sales. They've proposed going on to team up with
Ebony magazine suggesting promotions in churches, salons, and barbershops. And
(28:29):
while they're at it, maybe we can get a you know,
a perfect spokesperson like Patti LaBelle or a Wretha Franklin
as celebrity endorser. So important to note that neither of
those iconic powerhouse divas did this. Either of them went
on to be spokespeople for this campaign. So shout out
to Patti Labella Franklin. Um, I'm gonna say, Friends of
the Show, Yeah, let's do it. We're tight, you know.
(28:52):
I also think it's important to note that, at least
when I was growing up, brands like Johnson and Johnson's
baby Powder and Shower to Shower which used to be
owned by Onunson and Johnson for a while. Um, those
are legacy brands in a black communities. And I think
this idea that we were being targeted for something that
could make us sick and kill us is in raging,
Like the idea that this company would recognize that black
(29:15):
women are feeling more anxious about their bodies than their
white counterparts. They spend more money on products to deal
with you know, body odor and things like that cosmetics. Um,
the fact that these companies seized on that and really
sort of I would say, preyed on us, target us
in rage of me. Absolutely, and in fact, black women
have been found to spend about four times as much
(29:37):
as white women when it comes to expenses on hair,
and twice as many black women douche and deodorize when
you know, downstairs, when compared to their white counterparts, according
to research from gw University, and so looking at those
humongous disparities, part of me wants to take the economic
justice route and say, these are already women who are
(29:59):
underpaid chronically talk about a lack of equal pay for
women of color, and then, to make matters worse, we
see these huge disparities based on outdated, untrue, unfair stereotypes
around body cleanliness that make these women feel especially preyed
upon and liable to then feel pressured to buy products
(30:19):
that deodorize their body. And it's been well established that douching,
by the way, let's just add this in here, is
not exactly a good thing for you, exactly. I mean,
going back to that study im gw UM, those researchers
found that like baby powder, over the counterproducts like douches,
national deodorizers and things like that contain ingredients um that
are more likely to be linked to cancer, among other
(30:39):
health risks not listed on the labels. So basically, they're
being pressured because of unfair, racist, untrue stereotypes about their
bodies to consume things that are actually making them very sick, exactly.
And there was a really compelling article about um those
gross stereotypes and how rooted in our history in the
(31:01):
United States. They are called an odor of racism vaginal
deodorance in African American Beauty, Culture and Advertising from the
Journal of Advertising, Society and Review by Michelle Ferranti. In
that article, she writes, quote, for many recently emancipated African Americans,
a clean and odor free body signified personal progress and
(31:22):
enterprise and the hope for racial assimilation. And then she
goes on to point out that the first documented reference
to douching comes in an eighteen o three medical manual
for the treatment of West Indian slaves that lists excessive
national discharge as a common complaint and prescribes twice daily douching,
which we know is bad for you. This is the
(31:43):
most I think horrifying part of that entire article is like,
this comes from a manual on how to treat human
beings back at a time when these human beings were
treated like livestock. And oh, by the way, even at
that point, we can you know, stereotype how these women's
bodies were naturally functioning as somehow impure or bad, which,
(32:04):
by the way, it goes into the entire racist undercurrent
here that's trying to dehumanize these women to begin with totally,
and I think that is exactly it. It's this idea
that is so pervasive that it's been with us since,
you know, since it's been it's been ingrained in the
fabric of America that if you were a freed slave
and you wanted to signal to others that you were,
(32:25):
you know, taking good care of yourself and that you
were ready for you know, it's it's so sad. Even
just saying this out loud, it makes it breaks my
heart because I can imagine these people wanting to signal
to those around them that they were deserving a full rights,
a full personhood, and going out of their way to
signal to others like hey, I keep my body clean,
(32:45):
I smell great, blah blah blah, that that is a
way of signaling that we are deserving of something that
should just be born with you. You should just be
born with full personhood and the full rights that you
get with citizenship. And they were basedically making themselves sick
to prove something that should have just been innate with
being humans. And that's like what comes from historical institutions
(33:09):
like slavery that are founded on the dehumanization of human
beings exactly. And for those of us who are feeling
squeamish about this in in light of the country that
we live in and and it's it's hard to justify
I get it. It's hard to justify and reconcile patriotism
with these with the fact that our country was founded
(33:31):
with the institution of slavery behind it. But here's a
quote to chew on for a second from a founding
father you might have heard of, Thomas Jefferson. Okay. Thomas
Jefferson is on the record as having said that black
women have a quote strong and very disagreeable odor. Okay.
So this this all sort of comes back to this
(33:53):
idea that there's this misogynist twist to racism from the
founding of our country on forward that not only posits
this idea, uh, this racist idea that blacks Reek and
as Omissa Kay Natasha Tinsley right, she's a professor of
African and African diaspora studies at the University of Texas
(34:16):
in Austin. She writes in an article for Time that, quote,
if racism posits that blacks reek, and misogyny teaches us
that vaginas are rank, how difficult does it become for
black women to love the scent of our healthy vaginas?
I think she hits the nail right on the head,
I mean, and that's what infuriates me so much about
(34:37):
this is that I see that companies like Johnson and
Johnson are using that anxiety that Black women are ingrained with,
that that that's rooted in racism and slavery and all
this awful stuff to sell us products that might kill us,
that lines their pockets exactly exactly. And she goes on
in that article to say, Johnson and Johnson and other
companies are ready to profit from these myths of the
(34:59):
excessive black china. They're willing to capitalize on our internalized
misogynour even if we die in the process. For decades,
companies including Johnson and Johnson continued marketing to encourage Black
women to spend money on talk powder, which could cause
cancer and our reproductive organs, even as they promised to
quote freshen them because the buyers were women. They were
the advertiser's targets. Because they were women, they were vulnerable
(35:21):
to the side effects that the company's never even exposed. Disgusting.
It's disgusting, and it's infuriating. And I think being told
to have this anxiety internalized about our own bodies and
then using that anxiety against us to line your pockets
and we get killed in the process. I can't even
get my head around it. It just does not get
worse than that. And you know, some jerk got promoted
(35:43):
and got a corner office for the winning marketing strategy
that got more black women to buy this stuff. Definitely
just what happens. And I would venture to guess it
wasn't a black woman kidding, of course not, of course not.
So it's just it is. It is. It's everything that
I hate it about. Racism meets misogyny meets capitalism in
(36:03):
the most disgusting way. It is. It is. And I
think some of you out there might be thinking, well,
why is it so bad to for a company to,
you know, know, their based audience, if their based audiences
black women, isn't it respectful to you know, advertise that
that specific audience, if they're buying it, why not advertise
to that? Exactly right, I could, I could actually see
people making that argument. But as Robin Means, Coleman, a
(36:25):
professor of Communication studies and African American Studies at University
of Michigan, says, we actually do want that, but we
do not want companies to market potentially carcinergetic products to us.
And so I think as as women, as women of color,
we do want companies to market to us, but that
should not include marketing products to us that might get
us killed. It's poison, and that's where the criminal negligence
(36:46):
came in. That's where the court's ruled that knowing of
this potential risk and ignoring that, not alerting clients to that,
not alerting the public to that, and aggressively targeting communities
of color is what put Johnson and Johnson in the
hot seat totally. So when the courts did rule on
this case, a verdict which was decided by I attended
(37:09):
to vote, included ten million in compensatory damages and another
sixty two million in punitive damages, way more than the
attorneys were even asking for. But the court sent a
very clear message to companies like Johnson and Johnson that
this behavior was negligent and worth punishment for. And at
(37:30):
that point Salter, the son of the then deceased woman
who had lost her life to ovarian cancer, bowed his
head and wept in court, you know. And it's like,
of course, that's great. Those millions are fine, but nothing
will bring your mother back. I'm sure he would much
rather have his mom back that. Um. What I want
(37:52):
to just drive home about this whole situation is that
in the end, we all need to be more comfortable
with our bodies, particularly women of color. I think that
we need to acknowledge that, you know, vaginas are not
supposed to smell like baby powder. They're not supposed to
smell like an autumn rain. They're supposed to smell like vaginas.
And I think, going back to that time article that
um Tinsley wrote, why do black women work so hard
(38:12):
to keep our vaginas from smelling like we ever bleed orgasm,
sweat or eat catfish? And we do those things and
our our bodies, because they are bodies that function normally,
are going to reflect them in odor. I think there
is a totally understandable response from women who feel uncomfortable
with vaginal odor, right, Like, that is the thing that
(38:34):
people are uncomfortable with. I think it's worth asking you
why you're uncomfortable with that. If that's your experience, it's
worth talking to your doctor about it and finding out.
You know, we have a perception of what is normal
that is not always granted in truth. We have a
message that's marketed to women about what the normal, perfect
body should look and smell like that we know is
(38:58):
not always close to what we reality would actually have
to say about that, or what a medical professional would
have to say about it. So, if you're ever feeling
insecure about your body odor, talk to a professional, talk
to a medical professional, and know that that insecurity might
be you wrestling with these internalized messages that are put
(39:20):
in place in our media to actually drive a profit
home for somebody. I mean, that's part of the trip
of living in a capitalist, patriarchal, ft up society that
we are all unpacking this stuff all the time we
internalized them. I definitely have internalized some messed up stuff
about my own body, just based on the messages I've
gotten since childhood. Anybody would I think it's it's fair.
(39:43):
That is a fair outcome. And I think it's about
not getting caught up in it and stopping and taking
a beat and saying, yeah, why do I feel that
way about my body? Why am I having this reaction?
Um and unpacking it a little bit? And where did
I learn to feel disgusted about my own body? And
when did you learn? I think the messages get passed
down from parent to child in and think about what
(40:06):
what you know? Are you having a repulse response, like
are you having a disgusted response to a part of
your body? And if you're doing that vocally in front
of other people, including in front of impressionable young ones,
like those are the messages that young ones around you
are going to grow up thinking that this is normal
to feel grossed out about a part of my body.
And I would argue that that is a shame creating experience.
(40:29):
It definitely is. And again, my mom is a medical
professional and she definitely I definitely remember her putting powder
in her underpants. I hope to god she's not doing
it now, and if she is, I have to stop her.
I think this is the moment, like, if you are
listening to this episode, and you are using talc powder
in your underpants, or your sister is, maybe your grandma,
that's a little bit old school. Your nana is doing it,
(40:50):
you're whoever in your life is doing it. Make sure
they know that there are risks there. And even though
I know, I know, we have not, they have not
made the scientific link here. Is it worth it? Is
it worth having something that the American Cancer Society says
is quote possibly carcinergetic. Is it worth having that in
such an intimate area? And I think the answer is no.
(41:11):
And if you're nana, sister, friend, whoever really really really
needs to have powder in their underpants to feel clean,
what can they do? Well? The good news is there
is an alternative that won't give you cancer, uh and
that is actually sold on the shelves right around the
same section. So if you are looking at a powder
(41:32):
that's safer for that kind of use, um, know that
you can find corn starch based powders. And there is
no study showing that corn starch poses any of those
potential risks the American Cancer Society has been suggesting about
baby powder. So for women who are looking for an alternative,
know that some of Johnson and Johnson's competitors provide powders
(41:55):
that that are really made of corn starch only, So
do your due diligence, do your search, find out what
is you know actually medically safe before putting it in
anywhere near or downstairs and um, corn starch based powders
are a good place to start if that's if that's
your jam, So Svendy listeners, we want to hear from you.
(42:16):
What what came up for you during this episode? Have
you used baby powder yourself to feel more comfortable with
the way that your body naturally exists? And if so,
what are some of the ways that you have grown
up with the messages that we receive on those fronts
and how how have you internalized or overcome some of
(42:36):
these negative impressions. We'd love to hear from you, But ye,
where can they hit us up? They can hit us
up on Instagram at stuff mom Ever Told You, on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and as always on email
old fashioned style at mom stuff at how stuff works
dot com.
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