Black Hairstory

Black hair contains an entire history of ethnic pride, discrimination and assimilation. Lori L. Tharp, author of "Hair Story: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America," talks to Cristen about black hair from the tragic to the triumphant and why more black women today are celebrating the beauty of their natural hair.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristin, and today we want to share with
you an interview with Lorie L. Tharpes, who's an assistant
professor of journalism at Temple University. She's also an award

(00:24):
winning author, freelance journalist, and the speaker. And this is
somewhat of an addendum to the podcast that we did
a little while back, a fan favorite already all about
curly hair, and while we talked about black hair in
that podcast, we mentioned that there was so much that

(00:44):
we could talk about that we wanted to come back
and do an entire episode on that. And this is
that episode because Lori L. Tharpes, along with Iana Bird,
literally wrote the book on black hair in America. H right.
It's called Hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black Hair
in America, and it was originally published back in two

(01:07):
thousand two and reprinted in January of this year. And
we wanted to hear from an expert on the topic.
So without further ado, let's bring you the interview with
Lorie Tharp's. Could you just first introduce who you are?
And how you and co author Ayanna Dee Bird decided

(01:29):
to write in an update hair story untangling the roots
of black hair in America. Sure, my, I guess I
described myself as an author, professor, writer, and mom. Um,
all of those Um, all those descriptions really um define me.
And I you know, I wouldn't be a writer if

(01:50):
I wasn't a mother, I wouldn't be a professor if
I wanted a writer. UM, I feel like everything I
do is really intertwined with who I am as an individual.
Will so like my my professional world really does reflect
my passions and my interests and UM as a writer,
that's true. Also so when I was actually in graduate school,

(02:11):
I went to Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and
the kind of highlight of the program is choosing a
topic that you will report on for an entire year
for your master's thesis. And UM, the professor's always made
it clear that you better choose a topic that um
will keep you interested for a year, you know, because

(02:32):
there's nothing worse than having to report on something that
doesn't interest you or bores you after a while. So
it took me a while, but I eventually decided that
I wanted to write about black hair because it just
seemed to me that there was something very different about
black hair in the United States when compared with you know,
white people's hair, if you will. It seemed that, UM,

(02:54):
black hair was always making people um, making non black
people you know, ask questions or or you know, have
strange ideas about it, like they didn't understand black hair. Um.
Within the black community, there were so many kind of
superstitions and beliefs and almost conversations that were constant about
our hair that I thought that there had to be

(03:16):
more to it than just something cosmetic. And um, I
that's what I decided to do. And my professor at
the time at Columbia was very skeptical that there was
something to say about black hair beyond, you know, a
personal essay, and she warmed me repeatedly that I was
going to fail if I chose that as a topic.
But when I actually handed my paper in at the

(03:37):
end of the year, not only did um she changed
her mind, but she actually invited me over to her
home and said that she you know, apologized and said
she was just overwhelmed with how how deep and complex
and interesting black hair really was, and that she not
only thought that herself, but she photocopied might work and
gave it to a friend who was about to It

(03:58):
was a white end who was about to adopt a
black child, so because she thought that she needed to
know this information. And then she told me, you know,
you should turn us into a book. And at the time,
you know, just as a recent graduate student, I thought
a book, what, that's crazy, overwhelming. I just want to
find a job and move on with my life. But
as it turned out, when I my first job was

(04:20):
at five magazine, and I sat next to thee on
the bird and she had done a similar topic as
an undergraduate um for her honors thesis. She too had
written about black hair. She too had had a professor
who doubted that she could write anything more than a
personal essay, who then at the end, when she handed
it in um, he was also encouraged her to turn
it into a book. And so here we were sitting

(04:42):
next to each other when the person who hired us
both said, did you know you both have this weird
fascination with black hair? And so that led us to talking.
One thing led to another, and we said, let's write
a book. Together. UM, let's combine our two projects. My
project had looked at the history, um politics, and business
of black hair, and she had looked more at the
sociological aspects of black hair in popular culture. And so

(05:05):
that's what we did, is we took our you know,
our two interests and you know, dove even deeper into
the topic and came up with Hair Story in two
thousand one. And then, um, you know, both of us
were magazine writers and that we were at the beginning
of our career when the book first came out. And then,
you know, twelve years later, we decided to update the

(05:26):
book simply because everything that goes on in American popular
culture as it relates to black hair is so fascinating
and more and more UM issues were coming up every
day where we felt people were still wanting us to
talk about the book, but we had to keep adding
information because um new things were happening. And the most,

(05:48):
the most um prevalent thing, the biggest change in the
world of black hair was the Internet. The Internet changed
the entire black hair game. UM just as it changed
popular culture, it really had a significant an impact and
how black women around the world could interact with one another,
finally about the haircare regimens as well as product style,

(06:09):
and just this kind of community was built that never
existed before. And the from a financial standpoint, you had
a lot of black women entrepreneurs who were able to
launch products because they could distribute them via the Internet.
Whereas before they could maybe you know, give them to
a few friends or sell them at a flea market.
Now they could be international distributors, with the Internet now

(06:32):
allowing them access to, you know, a worldwide audience. So
that's why we decided to update the book in two thousand. Um.
It actually came out in two thousand fourteen. Um. We
decided to update it because so much had happened and
people now say, you know what, what's next. We figure
in another decade, we'll probably have to update it again because, um,
whether we're talking the business of black hair or the social, social,

(06:55):
socio political aspect of black hair, and not just American
popular culture, but now and internationally, things keep happening. So
we just keep writing, Well, it seems like there is
a tendency in white society kind of going back to
the story you're telling about your professor and just sort
of her eyes being open to how much there is

(07:16):
to talk about when it comes to black hair. It
seems like there's a tendency to talk about African hair
black hair in monolithic terms, as if it all has
the exact same texture, appearance, preferred styling. And I was
just wondering if you could talk about how it's quite
the opposite in reality, going back for centuries in Africa,

(07:39):
it was actually the differences among people's hair that's been
part of what you called a complex language system in
the book. Yes, Um, it's interesting because um as we are,
you know, firmly into the twenty one century in the
business world of black hair talking about salon owners, stylists, UM,

(08:01):
hair care man, you know, manufacturers, that the word that
they are now using, it's kind of I mean, the
buzzword now is to talk about textures of hair is
as opposed to race hair. Racially talking about hair, um,
it almost sounds I mean when you talk about it clinically,
it almost sounds silly to say black hair products because

(08:22):
every black person doesn't have the same kind of hair,
just like every white person doesn't have the same kind
of hair. UM. And it used to be unfortunately, like
if you went to the you know, the drug store,
the target wherever, and you looked at the hair shampoo aisles,
of course you would find rows and rows of you know,
shampoo for color, treated hair, for limp, fine hair, for

(08:43):
dry hair. I mean, white people had an array of
options to find the product that was really meant for
their hair volume izing products, you know, all different types.
And yet then there was black hair products, as if
there was one type of black hair. Um we quoted
talked to you, um Anthony Dicky, who is a celebrity

(09:06):
stylist who now has his own range of products called
hair Rules, and he likened it to make up, which
he's like, it's funny because obviously there are multiple shades
of makeup because everybody comes in different shades of skin.
There isn't one white um foundation, right, There's multiple variations.
And he's like, people should think of hair in the

(09:26):
same way that there are multiple variations of hair types,
whether that's in the white community or the black community.
Black hair isn't all the same, especially when you think
about the origins of Black Americans. Most Black Americans have
I mean they are you know, everybody has African blood
in them, but they have various different um ratios of

(09:49):
white blood in them also as well as Native American
and so the idea that their hair is all gonna
be the same is preposterous. Um. And again it's just
like eight Americans as well. There's just not one single
type of black hair. So, um, all black hair doesn't
look the same, just like all black people don't look
the same. And that's you know, it's kind of just

(10:10):
a biological fact that people seem to forget because the
concept of race is an invented concept, so it doesn't
really hold true when you talk about black hair because
Black people are such a diverse people biologically. Well. One
thing that jumped out to me in the book as well,
because we did a podcast a few months back now

(10:33):
on the history of hair salons and beauty parlors in
the US, And one thing that you noted earlier in
the book is that the hairdresser always held a special
place in community life, and that was in reference to
um hairdressers actually in Africa centrac Ago. And so I
was wondering if the hairdresser continues to hold a special

(10:56):
place in black community life today in the US, and
if so, how The short answer is absolutely absolutely. And
you know, and one of the things that we wanted
to why. You know, people always ask us, well, did
you write this book for black people or did you
write this book for white people? And it's clearly a
book for all people, because um, you'll, I mean, some

(11:19):
of the things that we wanted to emphasize is how much,
how familiar, and how similar some of the things that
you know, the black, black hair, black American hair culture
has with any other culture in that um, you know,
your your salon, your style list is almost like a

(11:39):
can almost be like a part of your family or
the family doctor. I remember, you know, years ago, there
was an OPRAH episode dedicated to how to break up
with your stylists because it was such a traumatic thing
to do because that relationship was so strong, and that
wasn't just for black people. But the reason, I mean,
and this is where the you know, that's the similar

(12:00):
is that I think most women who have a permanent
stylists have a very special relationship with that person, but
within the black community. And and you're absolutely right, and
that's you know, one of the things. We also tried
to establish the connections from African traditions in you know,
from the fifteenth century and beyond. Um, that carry on

(12:20):
through today and absolutely that you know, historically, in African
cultures West African cultures where most African Americans trace their history,
every community UM had their own designated hairdresser and that
person was a very highly like valued in UM, not worshiped,
but UM highly regarded person of the community. So you

(12:44):
didn't just let anybody touch your hair. You only let
the designated hairdresser touch your hair. And usually that was
a position that was passed down, So a mother would
pass that roll down to her daughter and we teach
her all of the things she needed to know about
her about the crap the hairstyling. And it wasn't because
they were just combing and washing hair. I mean, if
you know anything or saw any uh hairstyles in traditional

(13:08):
African societies, they were very elaborate. They meant a lot.
A person's hairstyles said everything about them, meaning it would
tell you what family you would belong to, what place
in society you had, whether you were married not married,
whether you were going to war, whether you were in mourning.
So a person who was designated hairstyles had to know
all of these styles for their particular community that they

(13:30):
were catering. To so today um and also because black
hair genuinely takes more time to um style to manage,
then I would say I'd say average, like I would
say white hair styles in general, not I mean, there's
I'm sure there's some very elaborate white hairstyles, but in general,
it takes time, i mean sometimes even days. So historically

(13:54):
that was a time when women would, you know, cultivate
friendships was during hairtime, you know, when hairstyles were being done,
and even today, because a black woman who's going to
go into the salon nine times out of ten, she's
gonna be in there for more than thirty four or
five minutes. She could be there two hours, and depending
on the the style she's getting, she could be in

(14:16):
there four or five, six, seven times even eight hours.
So one just spending that much time with anybody, you
would hope you could have something to talk about. But
also there is this still this very strong sense of
community building happening within the um beauty salons and barbershops
as well. But the other thing that happens in the

(14:37):
black beauty parlors traditionally is not just talking about hair
or women's issues, but it's also been a place where
um revolutionary activity would happen, where people would talk about
civil rights UM issues, where people would plan for to
do um any kinds of like community justice work. UM.

(14:57):
A lot of times um it interesting things were happening
and planned in the beauty salon because they were considered
safe spaces almost like churches and um pull up public
authority figures, police or whoever else wouldn't go into the
beauty parlor because one, they would discount women as actually
able to plot any kind of act you know, revolutionary activity.

(15:18):
But too because it seemed like a a you know,
something dedicated to beauty, so you wouldn't be talking about
anything of significance. So the beauty parlor has always been
this kind of safe, sacred space for black women to Again,
you're gonna spend a lot of time there, you're gonna
put a lot of trust in the woman who's who
is tasked with doing your hair. But also it's been

(15:40):
this kind of buffer zone from the outside world where
black women can part of the pun but let their
hair down and be themselves. Well, and it seems like
too as long as women need to get their hair done,
which will be forever, let's then that place in the
community will always be there, which is kind of incredible

(16:01):
to think about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there there's you know,
because we look at hair from all different angles. We
also look at the financial aspects the economy of the
black hair care industry, and that is one area literally
since ante bellum times, before slavery, black people have been
very successful in UM, in the salon and barbershop industry UM,

(16:26):
and that industry has been you know, even during UH
when slavery was still in effect, many black men were barbers,
and but they were UM treating, they were servicing white people,
not Black people, and became very successful and then turned
around and used that money though to uplift the black community,

(16:48):
to buy their family members out of slavery, to create
schools and UM community organizations for black uplift, so that
that UM trend continued, you know, even post slavery and
when the black barbers were actually servicing black clients and
salant owners as well. So today, when we have things

(17:11):
that seem wonderful like blow dry bars and brain bars
and um others UM you know, quick, fast and easy,
just too many people, that's great because everybody you know
who has enough, who has time, to spend three hours
in the beauty beauty parlor. But on the other hand,
it's kind of you know, you'll see some black people

(17:32):
become very um, defensive or alarmed by the kind of
fast paced way that is taking over the salon business
because historically this has been not just a place to
get your hair done, but it's been a community center.
So that is definitely something that UM is is of
concern in the black community. Is what happens if the

(17:55):
the you know, the thirty minute or the blow dry
bar or the braid bar you know, starts in and
to take over the the kind of community salon that
you know has been part of the community for years. Well,
if we go back, UM in US history to the
era of slavery, um, one thing that you talked about

(18:16):
in the book is how white slave owning Americans used
African hair as a justification for slavery, which I think
is something that a lot of people don't realize. And
I'm just starting if you could talk a little bit
about that. Yeah, So again it's in our twenty one
century ears and eyes. It just seems like it seems

(18:40):
like crazy to think about this, like to think that
this was something that could be done, but you see
the results today in that um you know, one of
the most important ways to make sure you kept the
population of people enslaved, not just physically but mentally so
that they would think of themselves as inferior, so that

(19:00):
they would have less less chances of um rebelling if
you will, which you know didn't really work completely, but
it kept you know, a large amount of people feeling
themselves inferior, which by um insinuating and actually legally declaring
the African race to be inferior. And the way they

(19:23):
did that was to um assign you know, the physical
the attributes that made Africans different from white people, for example,
their hair, were to label them as more like animalistic
than human. So the hair, you know, black hair wasn't
referred to as hair. It was referred to as wool

(19:44):
or for or animal like, such that Black people began
to really believe that there was something inherently inferior or
wrong with their natural hair, you know, the hair that
grew out of their heads. So from a very early
point in their arrival in the America's and the Caribbean

(20:06):
was to try to alter their hair because it was
constantly referred to as not just inferior, but ugly and animalistic,
so frarier. Very early on in um plantation life, you
saw all kinds of ingenious ways to try to straighten
their hair. If not straighten it, then at least try

(20:28):
to mimic the white hairstyles, which a lot of people
were wearing wigs, so even to mimic the wigs that UM,
and this was both men and women, so that there
couldn't be this continuous debasing of their individual cells by
slave owners to um, you know, to cast them as inferior,

(20:49):
so that kind of they're The African people loved their
hair and worship their hair and felt their hair to
be truly a part of their identity before before being
um kidnapped and enslaved. But as soon as they were
brought to this country as well as to you know,
South America, the Caribbean UM again, the hair quickly became

(21:10):
that thing because it is malleable um that they tried
to change and make in the image of their European
captors so that they wouldn't be denigrated in that way.
Men often shave their heads because it was such a
sign of blackness that they figured if they got rid
of it. That was one way to get rid of
this kind of badge of of inferiority. So that is

(21:35):
the you know, that is one of the reasons why
even today we still have work to do to claim
or reclaim the beauty of our own natural hair, because
for so long it was deemed inferior, ugly and animalistic.
I mean, even if it's funny, because even if you
look at you know, what would be a seemingly innocuous

(21:57):
description of a black person, you would see, you know,
they would describe their skin, their face, whatever, like on
a maybe a slave a fugitive slave poster, or even
just a description in a you know, a magazine or something,
and the way white people would write thea and her
wool was styled this way. I mean it was scientifically,

(22:17):
even the scientific community was calling it woolf So, I mean,
it was so endemic into the culture that it would
be a real testament of mental strength to not fall
prey to the belief that somehow you were your hair
was what made you inferior. Well, and it seems like
one of the earliest manifestations of that internalizing of that

(22:40):
rampant racism at the time is this designation between good
hair versus bad hair, and the good hair being you know,
the straighter, the better. And so I was wondering if
it seems like the good hair bad hair designations have
been largely uprooted today from Black culture, or if traces

(23:01):
of them still remain, if there is still that internalizing
process going on. I wish that I could say that,
you know, ten years after the original book came out,
that good hair bad hair just the thing in the past,
But unfortunately it's not. It's still very much part of
the vocabulary, UM and culture in the black community. And

(23:24):
and in this updated version, we really kind of looked
beyond the Black American community and we're you know, sad
to find out that this is you know, we just
came back from a or what we call our European tour.
We were in London, London, France, let's say, London, and Holland,
UM and spoke to people from you know, all over
the continent, and that good hair bad hair is even

(23:47):
UM used in other parts of the world as well
as in UM. Latin America, Paolo Bueno, Palo malo is
also terms that are still very much in use, and
UM it really is just I mean, you we thought
when we went into this that this would be terms
that were only used by older generations because you know,

(24:10):
how they grew up. But of course older generations are
the ones that are bringing up the younger generations, and
they're still using terms like good hair and bad hair.
And what we're seeing sometimes where people might stop saying
good hair bad hair because they know how damaging. And
we're saying this within the black community, um that you know,

(24:30):
people will know that's just not could you know, we've
got to stop. We we have to stop using these
terms ourselves. But then we're getting euphemisms. You know, a
lot of people talk about the um designations of it.
There's these new like terminology to to decide what kind
of hair you have with these one sees to four seas.
I don't know if you've heard about that, but it's

(24:52):
a curl pattern designation or and people will talk about
wanting to have to be three B hair because that's
the more loosely curled hair as opposed to really kinky hair.
Um or people talk about grades of hair. So there's
still even if people aren't using good hair and bad hair,
which they are, I mean you still hear it. But

(25:13):
people are getting savvy about not saying good hair and
bad hair because that's you know, kind of antiquated, and
we know we're not supposed to say things like that.
But the euphemisms are still their nice hair, uh, Indian
hair to be hair, whatever it is, um, it's still um.
The concepts are still very much a part of the culture,

(25:36):
and we're still trying to break free of the idea
that everybody's hair should be or that we all want
hair that looks like you know, it's not even about
wanting to look white, and that should be very much clarified.
It's not about, oh, I want my hair to be
long and blonde. It's more like, I want my hair
to look like if I were biracial and had mixed hair,

(25:58):
which was the hair that would signify to UM slave
owners that this was a more worthwhile and more useful
and more valuable slave because basically, uh, white people slave
owners really believed that race was biological. So if if

(26:21):
an African or a slave had more white blood in them,
they were potentially um smarter. You know, they could learn more,
they could do more, you could train them, you could
have them in the house and have them running your household.
Actually they were more intelligent because they had white, more
white blood in them. So this good hair bad hare

(26:42):
really was not about a beauty issue to start. It
really was this idea that you were a superior being
if you had more attributes, you had more physical attributes,
which would mean more white blood running through you. And
that was again a very deliver for its separating of
the black population because if you kept, if you kept

(27:04):
the black people themselves kind of add odd with each other,
it was again easier to keep them from rising up
as a group and rebelling. So the good hair was
enforced by whites and then reinforced by the black community
themselves because the lighter ones, the ones with the light

(27:25):
lighter skin and looser curled hair, we're getting better treatment
in a lot of ways. Um. And that then put
a division within the black community itself. So you have
this perpetual reinforcement of that concept that the better, the
looser your hair, the more resembled kind of white European hair,
all of these benefits were bestowed upon you. So and

(27:48):
that wasn't like one or two people. That was an
entire population, and again not just in the US, but
all throughout the places where Africans were enslaved by white Europeans.
So it's gonna take a lot more than you know,
the natural hair movement, which is doing great work in
terms of UM making people realize just how wonderful their

(28:11):
own natural hair is. UM. So that was a really
long answer to say that, yes, we're still using good
and bad hair terms and it's not gone from the community. Well,
that's something that has persisted since the original publication of Hairstory.
What has been the biggest development you've seen, you know,
between two thousand one and now in terms of natural

(28:34):
hair and American culture. Well, the biggest, I mean, the real,
I mean, the huge, giant kind of thing that made
all the difference was the Internet, which I think I
mentioned earlier, but you know, the Internet was simply the
medium that allowed movement to blossom, which is really really

(28:54):
the reason we had to update the book because the
natural hair movement, which UM has you know, both the
ON and I are hesitant when people want us to
define it. What is this movement because there's no leader,
you know, there's no doctrine, there's no Bible, there's no
you know, official membership card to be a member of

(29:15):
the movement. Um. Nonetheless, the idea, you know, the energy
behind it has definitely been, um, kind of a grassroots
energy coming from black and around the United States who
have decided to stop straightening their hair with chemicals. And

(29:35):
I make that distinction because we'll get to that in
a second. But the idea that people are not just um,
you know, not for some sort of political statement as
it were in the sixties, where it was a real
political statement and you know, there was a real you know,
the civil rights movement, the AFRO was really a part
of the political protest, whereas today in the you know,

(29:59):
early two thousands, we saw women, black women, very very
deliberately deciding to stop straightening their hair, not as a
political movement as much as it was a beauty decision,
which makes it political and revolutionary in ways, Um, because

(30:21):
it was people saying, I can still be beautiful, and
I am no longer of the belief that the only
way my hair is beautiful and pretty and fun and
acceptable and sexy and attractive if it's straight. Um. That
is a revolutionary thought for black female in the United States.

(30:43):
And so what we see is not just you know,
women here and there taking their hair out and wearing
it in an afro. But we're seeing an entire new
language and lexicon and styling options of black women UM
wearing their hair and actural styles and having fun with
it and not again like I'm wearing an afro to

(31:05):
make a serious political statement, but I'm wearing a twist
out or I'm doing you know again. There's styles that
were never heard of, and the beauty of it is
that there are products. Now there's a whole new kind
of culture around natural hair that is not political. It's
completely beauty UM motivated. So UM that I think is

(31:26):
the biggest change is that you have UM. You can
look online and go see you know, thousands of hair
tutorial videos, UM YouTube channels, blogs, websites where you can
get information and information about, you know, how to do
certain styles, and you can get UM communities talking about

(31:48):
just products that they're using. You can go on a
cruise ship and talk about your natural hair and how
much fun it is UM. And you even have people
who will, you know, if if you are discriminated against
at work, you will have an entire online community supporting
you to the point where you may you know, get

(32:08):
your job back because there is such a vocal chorus
of people supporting any black woman who decides to go
to go natural. And again the industry is rising up
around it to say, remember how it was saying before,
how black hair crowd, black haircaracter products used to be
just that one thing, as if black hair was all

(32:29):
the same. Now you can go into any kind of
mainstream store um, I mean like a whole foods target
um and find products that are meant not just for
one type of black hair, but multiple textures of black hair.
And the products aren't in one kind of all brown
bottle on the bottom shelf. They're beautifully packaged, they smell lovely.

(32:50):
They allow black women to get involved into the beauty
rituals that have been denied them for so long because
we were supposedly all a monolithic group who had one
type of hair and didn't spend the time, you know,
playing with our natural hair um and seeing all the
different things it could do. And so the community started
doing this on their own, and industry, both manufacturers of

(33:12):
products and salons have risen up to support them. And
there's even a whole new um industry that has risen
up around the natural hair movement, which is the natural
hair meetup. And like I was not joking about a cruise.
You can go on a cruise, you can have parties.
There's natural hair parties, meetups, cruises, um uh, conventions. There's

(33:34):
a whole industry around this idea that black women are
um excited about their natural hair. And and while that
to a non black person that might seem excessive, like
why is anybody so obsessed about their hair? And it's
because you have. It's almost an entirely different Um. It's

(33:56):
a whole new experience to actually play with your natural hair,
to know what it does. Because for generations and generations,
black women have been putting chemicals on their hair and
straightening it and believing that that was what their hair
looked like. And it's like I'm trying to think of
a an equivalent of what a white person might experience. Um, Okay,

(34:18):
here's a good example. If you have been overweight your
entire life and you go on a diet that actually works,
I mean something that really feels good. You go on
a diet or exercise and exercise plan, and you have
a whole new you know, feeling about yourself and you
actually look different, you would be. You'd probably be like one,

(34:40):
you'd go by different clothes for yourself, you'd want to
talk to people because it would just be like I
have never I never knew that, you know, life with
life is as a skinny person, Like I never knew
that exercising so much fun. I never knew that, you know,
I'd be going on all these dates because men would
find me attractive with you know, being skinny. Right for

(35:03):
black women, for them to suddenly have the whole different
experience with their hair, that's almost what it's. I'm trying
to think of something that you would be able to,
you know, relate this to, because it's like I never
knew my hair could do this, like I always thought,
you know, for so long, black women were told like,
you have to keep your hair straightened because if you don't,

(35:25):
it's just unmanageable. It's ugly, it would be just a mess.
You know, it would just be unattractive. And then you
see on YouTube somebody whose hair looks like yours does
so you try it and then you find out, wow,
I didn't know my hair did this. I had no
idea my hair could you know, curl in this way
or I could style it that way and she's attractive

(35:47):
and I could be attractive like that. Like it's a
it's literally a revolutionary concept for women to to see
their hair that's they've been told. I mean, it's like
psychically in their psychic history that their hair is naturally ugly.
And it's like, oh my god, it's not. It's not
only is it not ugly, it's pretty and it's fun

(36:08):
and I can buy nice products for it and and
I can you know, I'm I'm. It's for a lot
of black women once they go natural, it almost feels
like they're like born again Christians or something like that,
because they're so excited by this information that it seems
that have been denied to them for so long, which
it has. So there's a real sense of excitement enthusiasm

(36:29):
about this natural hair move meant because again you've got
years and years and years and years of people telling
you one thing and then you discover the truth. So
there is a bit of zeal it. Uh zealousness is
that I think the word you know, to the to
this movement and um that I think is the most
exciting thing to see. And it's what's really is exciting

(36:52):
is to see that it's happening, not just in the
United States. But we, like I said, we went to London,
we went to Amsterdam, Um, we talked, we were speaking Paris,
that we were really talking to a lot of people
in Paris as well as in Switzerland even and seeing
the kind of excitement that this is spreading. Because what's
happening in the US. People look at the US to see,

(37:13):
you know, what's culturally cool, and it's spreading like wildfire
are all over and in some countries and some cultures,
it's it's an even more defying and revolutionary idea like
um in the Dominican Republic, for example, where the idea
of being black is such a dangerous thing to accept.

(37:35):
Um for black women to kind of not even black women,
any women of color with kinky hair in the Dominican
Republic to stop straightening their hair. That's a really revolutionary act.
But it's also very liberating. And what's happening there in
the hair community is fascinating. So all of this to
me is the most um, exciting and new things that

(37:57):
happened in the last you know, ten years, ten to
twelve years in the black hair community. Well, it seems
like just culturally speaking, you keep using the word revolutionary
and it seems even more and it does sound revolutionary,
just the very concept of embracing hair for beauty's sake,
and that's it and there are no qualifications necessary. I mean,

(38:20):
that's that might sound so simple, but I mean it's
it's pretty radical if you think about where we, as
you know, American society are coming from when it comes
to black hair. Exactly it is and that you know,
even my father, I love him, he when I told
him I was writing a book about hair, he was like,

(38:41):
you know, so excited. That was my first book, and
he was so proud of me. But he you know,
you know, pull me aside. Are you sure there's really
something to say? Let's what a long book about black hair?
You know, people often look at me funny when I
say that, you know my I mean, I'm a academic
university professor, and when people say what's your area of

(39:03):
interests of research, I'm like black hair. And it seems
I mean, unless you understand where I'm coming from, it
does seem like there couldn't possibly be that much to say.
But it's incredible how um the hair is so telling
in our againd of our cultural place in society. UM.

(39:27):
Part of it's because the hair is so malleable. You know,
we can't really change I mean you can go under
the knife obviously, and you could in theory change your
whole body. But in terms of kind of every day
what you as an individual have control over, your hair
is one of those things. You can change its color,
you can change its texture, you can change the style
every day you put a wing on. I mean, there's

(39:48):
so many ways that you can change your hair to
reflect what you think society expects of you. And that's
true for any you know, black or white, or any
other UM person of any background. The hair really is
our one thing. And I mean think about men facial hair.
I mean they can grow a beard and look like
a completely different person. They can grow mustache, they can

(40:11):
handle our mustaches. I mean hair really really is that
thing that we have control over that can really change
how we look. So in that respects, UM, In that respects,
that's the universal truth about hair, UM. But then when
you take it into the black society, into black the
black community, UM, where we have we are the other
in a white dominated society. Our hair is the gives

(40:34):
us the ability to kind of fit in or not
fit in, because it also it is that malleable thing. Um.
There's this example of you know, Angela Davis, you know,
who was a wanted woman and she was so identified
with her afro that when she tied her afrow down
and wore a wig, she was walking around, you know,

(40:55):
walked through a group of police officers who didn't even
look twice at her because she did didn't have that
big afro, and she eluded, Um, she eluded police capture
simply by changing her hairstyle. So it's, um, it is
revolutionary to think because to think about black hair in

(41:15):
the ways that we do, because it's really I mean,
it's really identity politics, and it is how you know,
If we choose to conform and we choose to use
our hair to assimilate and fit in, that's one thing.
But when we choose to buck the system, we choose
to do something different, we obviously are gonna doubly stand out. Um.

(41:37):
And it takes courage in a lot of ways to
do that. Um. But when we do do it, and
we do it well, you know, there's a lot of
you know, positive responses from all over um. But I
mean the reality is that our hair still causes people
to question our loyalty to the country. Are whether or

(41:57):
not we're you know, um, violent, whether we're criminal, whether
we're anti society. It still says so much to the
external culture what kind of black person are you? Based
on what your hairstyle is doing. So, um, we're still
judged very much by what our hair is doing. And

(42:18):
that also is true cross ratio. I mean, you know,
if a white woman walks into a room and she
has a mohawk and pink, you know, a pink mohawk,
people are going to make assumptions about her, um, and
she has long her versus short hair, curly or straight,
all of that. You know, people are judged by their hairstyles.
But again, Black people are doubly judged because their hairstyles

(42:41):
seem to signify certain things to people. You know, again,
are the anti establishment? Are they a drug dealer? Are
they a gang member? All of these things are still
caught up in our hair. So whatever we're doing stylistically,
especially if it's different than the norm, really is a
revolutionary act in a lot of ways. And I'll continue

(43:02):
my conversation with Lori l. Tharp's about her book Hair Story,
Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America. When we
come right back from a quick break and now back
to the show, the last thing I wanted to ask
you about how this natural hair movement and just black
hair in general intersects with the workplace, because this is

(43:26):
actually something we've heard from our listeners about as well,
in terms of the persistent discrimination, particularly targeted towards black
women regarding their hair in the workplace, because there's this
idea that professional in quotes looks a specific way and
it's very straight. And my my co host Caroline actually

(43:48):
had a friend who in a job interview was wore
her hair kind of straightened, and at the end of
the interview, which she nailed, her few your boss said,
now I hope that you plan to wear your hair
like that as long as you work for us, Oh my,
and as if it's nothing, as if it that is

(44:08):
completely and totally fine. So um, how I mean, so
where where does all of this fit together? I mean,
are we I mean we just had the US military,
for instance, updated, finally updated terror regulations for black female soldiers.
I mean, is that a step do you think in
in a domino effector is it going to take a

(44:29):
long time? Well, um, I'm very I was very heartened
to see that the military responded to all of the
UM backlash and cries for un to please look again
UM at their policy, which to me shows that when
black women and black people stand together, UM, that their

(44:49):
voices can be heard. UM. That was really uh, I
thought a really positive response, and that they relaxed some
of their their roles I thought was also very positive
because it meant that they were listening. But they still
um outlawed dreadlocks, which I thought was still a which

(45:10):
you know, actually allows me to answer the rest of
your question that you know the idea that I don't
know who is making these decisions um, either in the
military or anywhere else, that you know, you that certain
styles signify certain things about a person. Um. Yes, it

(45:31):
may be true that there is a drug dealer out
there who has the dreadlocks, but that does not mean
I think we all learned that in the seventh grade
logic class that all drug dealers therefore where dreadlocks. Like. UM,
there's this. I believe that the reason that the military
and other UM professions organizations, I mean everything from FedEx

(45:52):
to six Flags have outlawed dreadlocks for their employees. Um
and especially I mean when it goes all the way
down to six Flags or even a male carrier from
like a FedEx or ups who you know, large complaints
about employees wearing um dread blacks. The only reasons like that,

(46:12):
The main reasons that people are saying that is because
they claim that those are scary hairstyles, and that can
only come from a belief system that there's something inherently
scary about dreadlocks or that people who wear dreadlocks are
involved in nefarious activity, which goes to the back to
the idea that you know, when there are policies workplace

(46:36):
policies for example, about certain hairstyles. There's one. I mean,
it's very clear to me that certain organizations, if we're
talking about a corporate environment, that they are going to
have a dress code. And I can even understand to
a large extent why any kind of out of the
ordinary hairstyle is going to be frowned upon. And that's

(46:58):
where again white or black, UM, I would I believe that, uh,
you know, a corporate banking environment who still makes women
and men wear blue suits red ties. That's it, are
gonna say something if you come to work with you know,
even if a woman has just excessively long hair, that's
always kind of out because it would be distracting. But

(47:19):
there's still like a double standard for black people because
certain styles, even if you don't know anything about them,
are just deemed inappropriate simply because there is an association
with negative behavior with that style, and that's just that's
just racist. I mean, there's no other way to say it.
And we are again, this is why we wanted to

(47:42):
update the book. This is why we have our website here,
story online dot com because this keeps happening where people
are discriminated against, and we're seeing it even in like
elementary schools, where young girls are even being told that
they have to leave the school or go home because
they're wearing their hair and dreadlocks or afropuffs styles that

(48:05):
somebody has designated as inappropriate. And when we talk, most
of these are natural hairstyles, which would assume when you
say they're inappropriate for the school or inappropriate for the workplace,
then you're suggesting that natural black hair doesn't belong in
an academic environment, or that it doesn't belong in the workplace.
Those are questionable. Those are really dangerous precedents to set,

(48:27):
in my opinion. And again, I'm not suggesting that anybody
should be able to come to work with a Bob
Marley head of dreadlocks if you're working in a bank,
But if your dreadlocks are neat and in a bun,
you know they're no more. I mean, what's the difference,
you know what I'm saying, like, that's my This kind
of wholehearted discrimination against an entire type of hairstyle, to me,

(48:53):
shows that there's not enough nuance or wanting to make
the It's not even making an option, it's about paying
attention to what is um a different cultures, you know
hair um. The military, I feel like they kind of
took that into they they I feel that that's what
they were listening to and that black women were saying,

(49:15):
you're outlawing the very style that would make the most
sense for a woman in combat. You know, styles that
are easy to do that don't need a lot of maintenance,
like twists and dreadlocks, and you've just outlawed them. And
you actually put something as ridiculous as you can wear
a wig wearing a wig in combat, Like, I mean,
just thinking about it, it's ridiculous. And so it's like

(49:36):
clearly whoever was writing that policy didn't know enough about
black hair, like biologically to say that doesn't make sense,
Like that's not either economically efficient or efficient in terms
of styling for what we want our soldiers to be
able to do. Um. And I think it's the same
thing in the professional world. You know, people are making

(49:56):
assumptions like you just can't wear that style because that
means you're drug dealer, or that means you're you know,
I can't I can't even rationalize why a short neat
afro isn't appropriate in a certain board room because it's
you know, it's simply a very simple, basic non um
in your face style. And yet they've certainly these certain

(50:19):
looks aren't it's simply because it's an afro, it would
be considered inappropriate. So where we are today, I think
in um, I mean, I think it should be clarified
that you're there are a lot of professions, I mean,
some um, very creative professions, like the magazine industry, which
I have worked in in the academia, I've never been

(50:41):
dinged for my hairstyles. And I've worned every natural hairstyle
you could imagine, dreadlocks, afros, big poofy hair, I mean everything.
And I've only been complimented on my hair. My co author,
Iata Bird, same thing. She's worked in a variety of
creative UM communications positions and she's never been dinged on
her hair either. But every single day we hear stories

(51:04):
like you just shared with me, people who are in
corporate environments who are told in the interview or don't
get the job, or are reprimanded because of their hairstyles.
So I mean even on we you know, just this
past year, we saw a woman you know, on broadcast

(51:24):
television lose her job for natural hairstyle related issues. So UM,
I would say that we are No. I don't think
we've gotten any better, because these things are still happening,
and they seem to be happening still rather regularly. UM.
But I feel like it just to a certain extent,

(51:46):
Like if I'm ever, if I'm ever UM counseling young
people who are looking for jobs, I would say, you know,
know the environment that you're going into, and if you're
going into a corporate environment and your your natural hairstyles
have or into you. You have to make a decision
is the job more important or your hair more important,
because people aren't going to budge because of one person.

(52:09):
If they have a if they have a uniform policy,
be prepared for your hair to match the uniform because
there is still a standard that for the most part,
natural black hairstyles don't meet. UM. And this too is
an international phenomenon. There's a I mean, it was a YouTube.
It went viral because there was a young man who

(52:30):
worked for Air France as an airline steward and they
outlined outlawed dreadlocks, and he wore a wig to work
every day, took it off when he got to when
he got home, and put it back on when he
got on the airplane, and just to cover up his dreadlocks,
which were very neat, very neat trim short dreadlocks. But
it was a uniform policy and so he just he

(52:52):
said it like my wiggest part of my uniform. So
I don't think that we have gotten any kind of
further in our acceptance of UM certain hairstyles in the
workplace at all. UM. My only hope is that again,
young people who are entering the workplace understand this, and
I don't know if it's a battle they need to

(53:12):
fight if they are trying to get a job. I
think that at this point they need to know that
they have to decide if their hair or their job
is more important. It's just unfortunate that's even a decision
that has to be made. I know, it's really I mean,
and again, I'm I'm old. You know I'm old. I
Like I said, I've had the luck of choosing professions

(53:35):
that are on the creative side. This has never been
an issue for me. It has never like it to me.
When you said that about your colleague, I I it's
almost like I can't believe that it's true. I read
about it all the time I studied, I talked to
people about it, so I very much know it's true.
But it's still boggles the mind that a young person

(53:55):
has to think about whether they should cut off their
beautiful dreadlocks that they've been growing in stince they were,
you know, sixteen or something, that they keep meat and
professional in a bun, because there is a very large
possibility that the person that interviews them sees their dreadlocks
and decides that that's inappropriate, or that there not corporate material,

(54:15):
or that they can't even see their stellar resume because
they're looking at their hair and thinking that person is
not going to be a team player. That person is
probably involved in a deep sea the underworld. I mean,
I can't even guess what's going on in their minds,
but whatever it is, in today's world, I cannot honestly

(54:36):
tell somebody to risk a hairstyle if they really want
the job. And and you know again I think that
that's again if a young I can't you can't equate
that with a you know, in a you cannot equate
that to people who are not black, because there's really
not a hairstyle that a white person would have that

(54:58):
would automatically dis qualify them from um a job. I mean,
if a if a white woman had really long hair,
she could always pin it up in a bun, you know,
if she I mean, I don't. I can't really think
of an equivalent where she would have to, you know,
cut off her hair and start over again to get

(55:20):
a job. Like it just I don't see anything. I mean,
she might have to take out her six earrings, but
that's different. That's not the same thing. As um, cutting
off your hair or putting chemicals in your hair, or
putting extreme heat on your hair so that it looks
like whatever the corporate world wants it to look like.
I mean, that's I mean, it's altering your body to

(55:43):
get a job. Well, and that's gets to the point
of you know what you said, where this is simply
racism in the guise of professionalism, and so it kind
of gets this past under like under dress codes, professionalism,
corporate jargon, etcetera. But the underlying issue is a history
of persistent racism. Absolutely. And um it's like I said,

(56:10):
I've never been in that situation, and I don't even
know what I would do. I mean, if I had
a family defeat, I certainly. I mean, again, we've talked
to so many people who have been in this situation.
A good friend of mine was a corporate lawyer in
New York City and she had dreadlocks, and she too,
she had a wig in her office. She would just
put the wig on when she got to work and

(56:31):
take it off when she left. She didn't take it home.
You know, it wasn't a part of it was part
of her uniform. And um, I guess that I mean,
I think that's the samest way to you know, to
deal with that is you put on your corporate uniform
and it's just for the She left it on her desk.
She had a little wigstand and she was like, I

(56:53):
put it on when I get there and take it
off when I leave. Um So I mean, I that's
the extra burden. I mean, it is the extra burden
that it requires to you know, it's not about how
how good your grades were, it's not about how many
internships you've had. It's still about what you how you
present so that you make the people around you comfortable.

(57:16):
So it's the burden is on the black person trying
to get the job and you know, to be Again,
the um Hampton University, historically black university, their business school
has outlawed natural hairstyles for their business students because they
claim that they are preparing you for the world which
you are going to enter. So you can't even be

(57:36):
in the business school at this black institution with natural
hair because they too have said this is you know,
it's not going to be acceptable, so it won't be
acceptable here. So again this is uh, this is an
issue that has many sides to it and Um, the
champions are the people who are fighting against and aren't
necessarily the ones who you would think and the people

(57:58):
who are are supporting it aren't necessarily the same one.
So you would think it's a it's a very I mean,
you you can find people who would fight on all
sides of this issue. Um, it's interesting that the um,
I think it was one of the deans at Hampton said,
you know, I don't know why people insist on wearing
these styles. They don't they aren't traditional black styles to

(58:19):
where you know, he said, you know, Malcolm Xton were dreadlocks. Um, Um,
Martin Luther King Jr. Didn't wear dreadlocks, So you know,
why why do you think that you have to have
dreadlocks to be you know, to be a proud black
man or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and I'm you know,
I'm just pointing out. I'm trying to make the point that, um,

(58:39):
not all black people also believe that this is that
it's that that, um, not all black people are against
the idea that you know, there should be some sort
of corporate environment, corporate hair code as well. So um,
so again, so the people who are perpetuating this this idea,
aren't just white people. That's also some thing to remain

(59:00):
to keep in mind. Well, and if it was unclear
to any of the listeners at the beginning of our
conversation how someone could write an entire book about this,
I think it should be pretty clear now. Yes, yes,
I mean we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg.
I know there's so so much to talk about. Well, Laurie,

(59:21):
those were all of my questions where you and honestly, yes,
I could continue asking you so many questions. UM, but
is there any final takeaway for our listeners about black
hair about the book? UM, just anything you'd like to add.
I mean, the thing is that again, when it goes
back to why we wrote the book, when UM, I

(59:44):
have this experience. UM, when I was still I worked
in a corporate environment. UM. I worked at a PR
agency when I first got a college. And UM, one
of the clients that UM I wasn't working on, but
one of colleagues was working on, was a a product. UM.
It was a black hair care line called it was
Revalon's Cream of Nature line of shampoos and conditioners. And

(01:00:07):
one of my white colleagues came into my office and
saw the I was like, I had a product poster,
product sample on my death and she looked at it
and like recoiled and said, oh my god, what is that?
That sounds disgusting? And I was trying to figure out
what she was talking about, and she was like, cream
of Nature that sounds like dirty, Like what is that?
And it just shocked me for a minute, because, I mean,

(01:00:29):
I understood where her mind had gone, but I couldn't
figure out why she didn't know what cream of Nature was, um,
because it was the shampoo in my bathroom for my
whole entire life, Like it seemed as usual, as regular
as ivory soaped. And that's when it really hit me,
Like that was one of those big moments where I
realized that white people and black people live in completely
different worlds when it comes to our hair. That you know,

(01:00:53):
black people, for the most part, no everything about white
hair culture because it's what we see, it's what's on television,
it's within movies, it's just what's in the public eye.
But on the other hand, white people don't know anything.
I mean, I don't want to say like they don't anything,
but black hair culture is a complete mystery because it's
done behind closed doors, in separate spaces, in separate places,

(01:01:16):
and until recently, even the products that we used were
you know, on separate shelves at the drug store, so
you wouldn't even realize that there are different products. So
there's this some idea that we had that you know,
if not just black people but non black people understood
black hair culture, that we could really um, you know,

(01:01:36):
bridge some of these you know, big gaps that there
are between you know, black and white America, which people
tend to think that those issues are you know, because
of you know, segregation and busting and um, you know politics,
when it's really I think a lot more about the
little intimate things that we do on a day to
day basis, and so much of you know, paining comes

(01:01:57):
from just misunderstanding and not knowing. So the kennel this,
can I touch your hair? I don't understand. Like, it's
just about understanding and learning and knowing. So that's why
we wrote the book. That's why we love to do
the radio interviews because, um, the more people know and
and total asterix here is that not just white people,
but black people as well, because a lot of people,

(01:02:19):
a lot of black people don't even know their own
history of their hair so feel maybe um sensitive about it,
but don't even understand why on both sides of the coin.
I think if more people actually understood where so many,
so much of this hurt, but also so much of
the celebration and the and the culture comes from, then
we bridge the gaps of misunderstandings. And you know, that

(01:02:42):
next person who is interviewing a black person doesn't say,
oh my god, I hope you can wear your hair
like that. You know, it's more of a oh nice hair,
or maybe she'll have her hair differently tomorrow, but I'll
understand that that's very normal. Um. That's what we're hoping for,
is that's why we wrote the book, is so that
all of my Americans, UM, would take the time to

(01:03:02):
just learn a little bit about this very public, very
public thing of black hair that has a lot of
you know, implications and radications within our culture. Well, I
just want to thank you for coming on stuff I've
never told you, to teach us and our me and
our listeners all about this and clear up misunderstandings and

(01:03:24):
just fill in all of these gaps that very much
need to be filled in. Um. Last thing I just
want to ask is where people can go to find
more uh information about you, Ayanna and the book because
it is fantastic and I highly recommend that people read it. Well,
thank you so much. People can UM go to our

(01:03:45):
website hair story online dot com all one word, no
caps or anything, hair story online dot Com and that's
where you can find out information about the book. There's
links to Ayana and are my um individual web pages.
There's always updated information about what's going on in the
world of black hair and as well where you'll be
able to see us if we're doing any speaking tours

(01:04:07):
or anything like that. We're not doing a whole lot
of speaking anymore like right now. Certain events that are
coming up will be there, but if you want to
see us, that's where to find us is we have
you know, we have a calendar for page on there. Well,
thank you so much again to Lori L. Tharps. We
hope you go check out her website and definitely pick

(01:04:28):
up her book hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black
Hair in America. And we definitely definitely want to hear
from our listeners on this topic. What types of issues
have you dealt with with your hair. What types of
things have you heard from other people? I'm sure there
are all sorts of stories out there. Yeah, So email
us mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is

(01:04:50):
where you can do that. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we
have a couple of letters about our curly hair episode
that we did a little while back to share with
you right now. So I've got a letter here from

(01:05:11):
Lacy and she said, I'm currently transitioning from here as
a flat ironing my hair to letting it go curly,
and it's been a major struggle with my own preconceived
notions of curly hair is unkempt, and I wanted to
add a couple of things. One is another movie where
curly hair is potentially used as symbolism. And How to
Lose a Guy In Ten Days, Kate Hudson's character starts

(01:05:33):
as a stick straight, slick blonde actually working at a
fashion magazine, but as her character transitions away from that,
she gets curlier and curlier. Finally, I'm an attorney, and
even though I'm trying to wear my hair more naturally
for court, I still show up with straightened hair in
a ponytail. No matter what statement I'm trying to make,
I can't have an old fashioned male judge think my

(01:05:56):
case was sloppy because of his perceptions about my hair
and potentially risk losing a case. I hate that that's
how it is, but there isn't much I can do personally.
I'd also love to hear an episode on how female
attorneys must dress for occasions like court. By the way,
every once in a while a judge will write an
article about slutty or frumpy attorneys and that never goes

(01:06:17):
over very well. Thanks for the great podcast. This is
my first time writing in and I just love your episodes.
It gets me through some of my more tedious tasks
of my day. So thanks lazy Okay. I have a
letter here from t J. She says, thank you so
much for covering this topic. I stopped chemically straightening my
hair in middle school and stopped using heat after my

(01:06:38):
first year in college. I have kinky, curly hair. By
the way, so many African American women spend years not
knowing what their hair actually looks like, and are even
afraid to find out because of the prominent quote good hair,
Bad Hair notions that plague the community. I found some
interesting articles. Uh, and t J talks about articles on
the website Black Roll with Long Hair. She says one

(01:07:01):
about the Army changing regulations for certain hairstyles and another
about an old Louisiana law that forced women of color
to wear scarves because of their fabulous hairstyles. Another current
issue is chemical relax or companies trying their hardest to
roll out lines of quote unquote natural products for curly hair.
And so again that website that t J pointed out

(01:07:22):
is Black Girl with Long Hair. So thank you for
the excellent talking point, t J, and thanks everybody who's
written into us Moms Steven House. Stuffworks dot com is
our email address and for links to all of our
social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
and podcasts, including this one that also include all of
our sources. So you can follow along while you listen,

(01:07:42):
Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot
com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff Works dot com. Four