April 20, 2019 • 41 mins
In this bonus episode, a retired detective talks about trauma-informed training, and a lawyer discusses what a sexual assault trial entails.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Andy and welcome to Stuff Mom never
told you a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works.
And today we have another bit, another bit, another bonus
(00:25):
episode for a bit of a bonus, A bit of
a bonus. Um and trigger warnings for today right off
the bat uh sexual assault, abuse and child Malla's station. Um.
And yeah, this is kind of similar to one we
had recently with Renee and Rebecca. You know, we discussed
the importance previously of law enforcement and dismissed cases or
(00:48):
dismissing cases, but we didn't get into what happens if
a survivor decided to go to child So we brought
into people to speak to those things. Yes, we have
today an episode of two inn used one with Justin,
an ex detective, and with another Samantha Samantha not who
worked for three years as a prosecutor in Florida and
(01:09):
you heard them clips from them in past episodes. As
we were doing these episodes. To be honest, this Samantha
and Yes, we both thought, well, with all these downsides,
why would anyone ever report? And we generally like to
end on something positive and we were having trouble finding
(01:30):
that positive thing. But then you. Samantha stumbled on this
Facebook video from Justin, who specializes in trauma informed training. Yeah.
I was really excited to see law enforcement or a
person of law enforcement come out and become an advocate
for trauma inform training because it's so rare that it
comes out of law enforcement is usually typically out of
(01:51):
like people in the world of counseling and or um
that type of level of treatment. So when he when
I saw this video, I was so excited that he,
as a strong advocate and strong ally for victims, also
got in touch with the lawyer so we could go
into what happens when a survivor actually goes to trial.
We're going to be hearing from both of them throughout
this episode, so let's get into these interviews. My name
(02:15):
is Justin Borkman, and I am a retired police detective
from the city of West Valley City in Utah, which
is the active suburb of Salt Lake City. I was
a police officer for fifteen years. I spent eight years
in patrol, so responding to um every type of problems
(02:38):
you can imagine, and in this department we responded a lot.
We did the most amount of cases per officer for
a year in the States. We were extremely understaffed. You
could go from a vehicle burglary to a gang shooting
(03:03):
in no time flat. Um. And then I went to
detective where I spent seven years in the Special Victims Unit.
During that time in the Special Victims JUnit, I was
a sign just about cases. Um. So if you do
(03:25):
the math, that's a lot of cases to burn through,
if you will. So those are adult rapes, mostly child
sexual assault, uh, child abuse, elder abuse, that sort of thing.
So it's a pretty heavy emotional type of caseload, if
you will. During this time, I went through a change,
(03:49):
and that change is starting to happen like across the
United States actually around the world. Um. And it's very
exciting time. It's also a very frustrating time for our
public and a frustrating time for the police as well.
One of the reasons that we asked you to come on.
(04:10):
I saw a video on Facebook because I get all
of these alerts and I love it that talk about
some good changes that have been happening. UM, And I
kind of wanted you if you can explain what do
you do today? So I left police work five years
before retirement so I gave up all that so that
(04:32):
I could go out and train and consult on trauma
informed investigation and procedural justice for our victims of crime
within the justice system. Can you explain a mouthful? Yeah,
that's a lot. I was gonna say. Can you explain
(04:52):
what trauma informed investigation is? What that actually is? Yes? So,
in an of itself, the two words trauma informs is confusing.
As I'll get out, there are numerous amounts of definition
to what trauma informs means, but I kind of take
(05:17):
the general version of everything, which means you're informed about
what trauma is and how it presents itself, and you're
informed about it. So that's kind of where I go.
Most of my stuff is changing the places within the
(05:39):
justice system that can be trauma informs, and when you
talk to prosecution you'll see some of that a little
bit more. But our um accused have the right to
cross examinate the accuser, so that is it's confrontational, that's
(06:02):
not trump informed. And that's just one little example. But
wherever we can make the changes to eat too. So
when I first went into the Special Missile Say here
was I was actually assigned to the property squad and
usually that is where guys will cut their teeth, learning
(06:26):
the system of screening cases and doing things differently than
what they were out on the troll. And I had
done that for six year, six your six months, and
there was an opening in the Special Victims Unit. And
what happened is I found my life calling. I would
(06:48):
go home at night and my daughter was eight years
old and I had just talked to an eight year
old about horrible things that had happened to her. But
I was being trained by the older guard of the
Special Dictrim student. We are cooked as a society, um
and especially as police officers about what sexual staff looks like.
(07:14):
What are what's normal, what's not normal? How do people present?
Most of them are faults, right, that's on our head um.
And I started the exact same way. And when we
would approach the case with the survivor, um that there
were certain ways that we did think that we're not
(07:37):
trauma forms Number one, number two. They close out the
cases fast because we had a huge caseload and we
don't have enough staffing. So I was doing the exact
same things as everybody else. And when I was investigating
(07:59):
child Sextus, assault. I was a little bit more focused.
We had a little bit more training on that. But
it seems like as soon as somebody would get UM
upward teens, young adulthood, that's a team they they just
turned into liar liar pants on fire UM. And it
(08:20):
wasn't fitting great with me, But there wasn't any way
around it. We didn't know. I would come in on
Monday morning, I would look in my box and maybe
there would be a sexual assault examined board in there, UM,
and I would look through it. And what we do
is we would call up our victim and we would say, hey, UM,
(08:42):
I just read through your board. I'm sorry this happened
to you. And I see that you don't have You're
not remembering a lot. There's alcohol involved, which happens a
lot UM. Actually alcohol is a tool UM that could
be used, can be use to futilitate sexual assault. And
(09:05):
I go, you know, there's witnesses here. Could you give
me the list of all the people that were there.
The officers didn't do that. I'm there. I'm seeing they
got one or two, but there was twenty people there.
I need to talk to UM and can give me
that information by maybe Thursday. Uh, unless you don't want
to keep going forward. While I was planting all this
(09:25):
down in their brains and I didn't know that, and
I was putting these huge tasks on somebody who has
just been raised for health. Say so, I tell them,
you know, if I don't hear from you by this date,
I'm going to close out your case, but it can
be reopened don't you feel like you want to come
forward later. Well, you know, Monday morning would come around.
(09:46):
The next Monday, I hadn't heard from them, so I
closed out their case. UM reduced what break case closed
and that was it. I'd never hear from them again.
And that first year I was we had detectives of
(10:08):
about thirty six and like I said, we were very active,
homicided everything else. And I was awarded Investigator of the
Year because I was making a lot of arrest with
the kid cases, but turning through them really fast, getting
rid of cases. But I was closing out all the
insults right. UM. A couple of years go by year
(10:35):
two and I go to a train that was poor
child sexual assault. But an attorney was there, Tea Chaine
on the neurobiology of trauma and a breakout session. So
if you've ever been to big conferences, they had these
little breakout sessions. Well, I wanted to go to another one,
(10:58):
but I was a social butterfly. Well, and I was
talking in the hall too long and the class I
wanted to was filled. But I knew my sergeant was
patrolling the hallways, so I quickly, I quickly tucked into
the neurobiology of trauma and sat in the back, and
(11:18):
she was actually talking about adult cases, not children cases,
and was explaining all the things that I was closing
the cases for was actual evidence, psychological evidence that something
(11:39):
horrible has happened to this person. So what it did
was took everything and looked at this on an ear.
Everything was opposite. So if um, she had gaps in
her memory, I would go, oh, she is making stuff
(12:00):
up and she's just hit my highlights. But now that
was actually something very bad happened to that person, and
I went, huh interesting, Okay, But I went back to
my desk and started going through my cases in regular time.
(12:22):
But I started seeing this stuff that she had mentioned.
My ah, that's weird. About months later I went and
saw her again. She was presenting it SA and then
it it happened. Um, I had my first moment of
(12:46):
aha and guilt. I started going, well, everything that the
system is defining these cases of these brave men and
women that have come forward, is actually evident that something happened.
Of the rapes that had biological evidence collected, only six
(13:12):
percent of those were being prosecuted. Um. If you've read
the book Missoula Bazoola, Montana, John Krakauer's book came in
at four percent prosecution RAG and the Department of Justice
came in and started slinging. And so we had a
(13:36):
six percent. And Violence Against Women International has a served
as study from two thousands two thousand, Well, it came
back to nationwide we were at five point six percent
of the people that reported. We know that people report
rape les, Yeah, six percent. Can you imagine if you're
(14:04):
in Atlanta, where you guys are from, at a prosecution
rate of six percent of popify, what would your public do?
So we had a six percent prosecution rate. Um, and
so we installed this protocol. Is some training with the detectives,
(14:25):
We did all sorts of different things with the full
board UH Institutional Review Board study from university so in
a here we went to six percent, which is a
increase with fall numbers, but honestly, gouts pent. That sucks,
(14:49):
but we could do better than that. And so that's
what's been starting to change around the country in law
enforcement is we're starting to learn about this trauma stuff,
and this trauma stuff we actually have been taught about
(15:10):
on and on in the police academy, however in a
different area. So what that means is when we train,
we train most of the stuff that's on our bat
felt for safety, but we do think during um firearms
(15:34):
training that is to help with trauma. But we haven't
been giving that to our victim. We haven't recognized it
and them. So there's a huge disconnecting that can actually
start changing tomorrow. Um. It's not gonna be an overnight thing,
(15:55):
but it can start changing tomorrow. Um we just go
you're extremely hard to change. Um that it needs to
start now, and there's so much positive things happening. Also,
part of that study was how did our victim feel
after the interview, not after the investigation is done, but
(16:19):
from report to interaction with detective And we had a
nineties seven percent positive feedback from our victim was a
trauma informed or right after the trauma forms interview, not
after the investigation. Was because some of them would not
(16:39):
uh the prosecutive That could certainly change it, but we
wanted to know how they felt up to that point,
if they felt her listen to uh that sort of thing.
And it was seven per seven positive. So that is
indications that we're doing something right. Sadly, we're not going
(17:01):
to prosecute every single case. It doesn't mean that our
rapists is not guilty of it. Most of them are
um really false reports tiny tiny bit um two to
eight percent is what they say out of my twelfth
under cases I had to that I proved probab will
(17:24):
cause is a high standard that we have to meet legally.
UM civil standard is our victim could be and should
be filing lawsuits against their um they're suspect. What we
need to figure out, I think, is what justice looks
(17:47):
like to our victim. It's gonna be different from everybody,
like a fingerprint, like your trauma. Everybody's aunt um and
may its procedural justice and counseling. Maybe it's not the
justice system, maybe it's the civil system. Maybe it is
(18:09):
the justice system, and we're gonna try our best I
have one of my survivors who would also be happy
to talk. Went through the system that did not trauma informed.
She went through the interview process and stuff that was UM.
She was it was an alcohol facilitated and sexual assault
(18:30):
at her home with her husband in another room with
some other friends and stuff and UM, DNA evidence everything,
And it went for three years waiting for triumph and
(18:51):
then at trial, UM, the jury came back not guilty.
I was devastated. I was actually in another state training.
It was just was last year. Do you know what?
I got a text messages checking on me from my victims. Wow,
(19:15):
that's procedural justice. She was devastated, but she knew she
was heard of all the way through that and she
got to say her peace. UM. It's sad our jury
pools are not the as educated and that's kind of
what you guys are doing right now for us, beautiful.
(19:35):
So usually who brings me in our nonprofit victim organization
UM paid for by Bedroom Bram, so Pedroom Bram don't
pay him a lot, But it's more about the passion
and getting out small areas and talking about it for me. UM.
(19:58):
Sometimes the police department will and they're guarding to do
that a little bit more now. But police department, sadly enough,
they spend what little training money that they have towards UM,
(20:18):
towards things that they get sued for. Our survivors are
victims of sexual assaults around the country. Their cases have
been in a way well, I don't know if that
can even this word this handled. And you know, I
(20:41):
did some of the same things. I didn't know what
I didn't know. But sometimes little civil lawsuits like that
will help change the system. Uh So that's happening in
bigger scales around the country at this point. There's a
big class action lawsuits and pot of Texas where I
(21:01):
think it's a deven or eight Jane does are is
doing the sheriff's department, the police department, in the District
Attorney's office, UM sporting finding their cases. When you think
about this, with the prosecution rate of four percent, five
point six percent, six percent, even most of the people
(21:28):
that report sexual assault our female, when you prosecute, only
a single digit percent of the cases comes out to
be gender discrimination. So there's a lot of change starting
(21:48):
to happen. We talked a little bit about where you
mentioned earlier about the B two movements, which has did
nothing but good UM for our systems. Of course, people
are being freaked out, and there's uh men that are
overreacting to it UM thinking that they can't do this,
(22:13):
that or the other. Content. It's not it's not hard. However,
the me too movement has only scratched a tiny tiny
bit of the surface. If you look at the surveys
and the studies, he ain't seen nothing yet. The amount
(22:33):
of false reports of other cases equals doubt to be
the same as sexual soft um so false burglary cases
for insurance fraud same percentage both UM, crashes of cars
for insurance same thing UM. And some of it done criminally,
(23:00):
some of it is done because of UM mental and
psychological problem. If it's something that the victim feels like,
they want to talk out through a mediator and not
go through the other stuff, at least get to acknowledgement
(23:22):
or some sort of closure or an agreement UM, whether
it's monetary or counseling or what have you. That may
not be a bad thing either. They depends on what
justice looks like to you. Since you were talking to
and your listeners are more on the jury pool. The
(23:43):
way their biology happened, and way it presents two people
as counterintuitive to what we were raised to think and see.
And the first person that's somebody to disclose the sexual assaults,
who is so important to the system and to their
(24:06):
um healing, the victim's healing. And you know you hear
the term starting by believing that's good. Um, things like that,
but really just show some empathy and don't question about
what happened. Um, are suspects, if you will. Our are
(24:27):
can be predators, and they worked very hard and they're
very good at what they do. And people think that
the victims are lying. They were set up, they were
groomed for the most part um and rape is not
something that happened in back alleyways often. UM, it's mostly
(24:49):
acquaintance rapes. And so give them the love that they
need and hear them out. That would be the big
thing we agree to ful partly. And since we are
talking to the potential jury, let's talk about what a
trial might look like. We'll get into that after a
quick break for a word from our sponsor, h and
(25:19):
we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, what happens if after
filing the police report, a survivor does decide to go
to court. UM. Yeah, and here's Samantha, who is going
to speak more on that. I'm Samantha. I was a
prosecutor for three years down in Florida. UM. I did
primarily felony prosecutions, UM, which included drug cases and assaults
(25:44):
and sex crimes and all of that stuff. I would say,
out of the sex crimes cases that came through our door,
maybe ten to fifteen percent were the adult cases. Unfortunately,
the majority of X crimes that prosecutors deal with, at
least in the jurisdictions UM I was in where child
(26:05):
molestation cases. So typically at the point where a prosecutor's
office is gonna get the case or be assigned the
case UM is after the initial report has been submitted
by the victim. UM, all of those initial steps by
law enforcement have taken place, the you know, a rape kit,
potentially interviews, UM investigation. The investigation might still be ongoing
(26:29):
when it's submitted to the prosecutor's office, but typically there's
enough to substantiate and arrest UM and charge the person
UM the perpetrator. So UM at that point, the prosecutor's
office really takes over and it really becomes a legal
situation at that point, moving towards trial. UM. In the
(26:53):
office that I used to work in, and I think
it's probably true in most offices, there's some sort of
victim liaison UM. We used to call them a victim
advocate SIGNED. Typically there are people who have a social
work background, some sort of experience, and they really coordinate
between the victim and the prosecutor assigned to that matter
(27:16):
UM to keep the victim in the loop about the case,
what's going on, answer any questions that they may have,
and that sort of thing. So from the point of
the initial charging to a trial UM. Sex prime matters
tend to be more serious, so they can take UM
quite quite a bit of time to actually go to
(27:37):
a trial. I would estimate probably about a year UM,
give or take. It can depend on a number of factors,
how busy the courtroom is, that that case is assigned
to other types of trials that might be in the
pipeline ahead ahead of it UM, and just availability of witnesses,
(27:57):
availability of law enforcement to come to stify UM, and
also sometimes what is best for the victim. Now, in
most jurisdictions there is the defendant does have a right
to something called a speedy trial that they can invoke,
which would speed up the process of the trial UM
usually six days something of that nature. In reality, though
(28:21):
very few people UM invoke that right to a speedy
trial UM's it just generally doesn't benefit a defendant to
do that. I would have thought the opposite. They usually
want to conduct try to get as much discovery as possible.
And what is discovery Just for people to understand, sure,
that's basically the exchange of information. So the defendant side
(28:44):
is gonna want to see every all the information that
the law enforcement has, the prosecutors have that they're going
to use at the trial UM, and prosecutors are required
to turn over anything that might exculpaid or UM be
beneficial to the defendants. UM. Discovery can also include depositions,
which is when the defense attorney is going to have
(29:07):
an opportunity to interview UM witnesses on the record, sworn
under oath, and it'll be transcribed the standard for criminal cases,
it's the highest standard there is, beyond a reasonable doubt UM.
We say, the only thing short of that is no
doubt UM. So the prosecutors are always mindful of their
(29:28):
standard of evidence that they're going to have to prove
in order to get a jury to convict, because that's
ultimately the goal is a jury conviction. UM. So there
are occasions when the case ends up being dismissed by
the prosecutor. In my office, that was fairly rare. We
wanted to really do that work up front to make
sure we were proceeding with cases that could go to trial,
(29:52):
and when there were weaknesses in our case, we were
more apt to try to look at a play or
something of that nature UM that maybe neither side was
totally happy with but could live with. UM. So that
would that would be our first priority before just simply
dropping a case. So in the courtroom, UM, these trials
(30:13):
are almost always going to be jury trials. UM. So
the first step is that the prosecutor is going to
select the jury, and the victim won't be UM at
this portion. Frankly, they won't really be in the courtroom
at all except to UM provide their testimony. Once they
do testify, they can usually sit in the courtroom for
the remainder of the trial if they want to UM.
(30:35):
But before they testify, there's something called a rule of sequestration,
which means that they don't want witnesses um testimony be
influenced by each other, So they don't want people who
haven't testified yet to be sitting in there hearing what
other people are saying. So until a witness, until a
victim testifies, they're usually not going to be in the
(30:56):
courtroom for all of the preliminary issues on the day
of the victims testimony. Again, our office had that victim
advocate that would be there with them. UM. They would
have been prepared by the prosecutor ahead of time, typically
walked through general questions that the prosecutors plan to ask UM,
(31:21):
and that really that's kind of a prosecutor by prosecutor thing.
I personally never liked to give people the specific questions
I was going to ask them. I wanted them to
know generally areas I was going to ask, because I
didn't want people to over prepare and them be thrown
off if something went astray. UM. But then they would
(31:44):
come in the courtroom. Usually our victim advocate would sit
in the courtroom so that they would have somebody UM
to be to look at, a friendly face to look at.
And I always encourage them, UM to really talk to
the jury. UM. Direct their answers to the jury and
to the judge, because those are the people that are
really making up the mind. You don't want to be
sitting there looking at your attacker, looking at the defendant,
(32:07):
looking at their attorney. Um. Obviously, the thing that we
try to prepare them for but really can't always be
prepared for is the cross examination, but um, the defendant's attorney,
and that can be really difficult for the victims, that part,
because they are really there to try to discredit their
testimony as much as possible. Typically, by the time they
(32:31):
gave their direct testimony of what had happened, it was
also emotional at that point. Um. And you know, again,
we tried to prepare them as much as possible for
that cross examination. UM, but I can't even begin to
imagine what it is like to be discredited like that
and um, you know, be made to feel like what
(32:53):
you're saying is dishonest in some way because it's it's
so difficult to just come forward from the get go
and even get to that point where you're sitting in
a courtroom. UM. And I think everyone is different. I
have heard from some victims that it's actually quite empowering.
To sit there and tell their story two people. UM,
(33:14):
it gives them that sense of self back, um. But
for other people it is quite a difficult experience to
go through. How often does it how long does it
usually take? I know it's probably based on the type
of case or whatever, But for a victim to come
and do their portion of questioning and cross examination, it
really depends on the case and how detailed it is.
(33:37):
I would estimate a half day to a day of testimony.
A lot of them do pleay out ahead of time
and out of the date. The forcible rape. Adult forcible
rape situations were usually a bit easier to convict. Um.
The date rape really does come down to a lot
of times, unfortunately, he said, she said, situation. And one
(34:03):
of the biggest problems I think in taking cases to
trial UM has really been the effective shows like C
S I and things like that, where they're showing all
of this like voodoo evidence going on, and we don't
have those things. There's not a computer that you can,
you know, submit a five or two and it tells
(34:23):
you that a shirt was purchased in New Hampshire or
something of that nature, and those things done exists. UM.
So when you do have the cases where your evidence
is really testimony. You do have some jurors that I
don't want to believe that that's really evidence. They want
that physical evidence UM to point to. So that's really
(34:46):
the difficulty with the convictions on you know what is
commonly known as the date rate type scenarios when it
comes down to a trial for example, though it really
depends a little bit more on what the jury feels
consent is and where that that moves on the on
the line. So literally it's for the prosecution or the
(35:08):
defense to try to define it for them and what
they believe consent is. Essentially so the sentencing process. Typically
sentencing is going to be set for a different day,
unless there is it's a crime where there's a mandatory
sentence that needs to be imposed. Sometimes the judge will
um impose the sentence immediately after the trial, but typically
(35:28):
it's set for a later date. UM. Victims do have
the opportunity to talk UM and are encouraged to a
lot of them find that healing preparis statement UM it's
called your victim impact statement typically is what it's called
in most jurisdictions, and it's your opportunity to tell the
judge how this has impacted your life, how this has
(35:50):
changed your life in any in all areas. UM. It's
also your opportunity to, you know, tell that perpetrator know
how you feel about them. UM. And UM. You know,
it depends on the jurisdiction and the crime. UM. Some
of them have mandatory sentences, UM, some very A lot
(36:13):
of times the prosecutor will talk to the victim about
what sentence or range of sentence they feel comfortable with,
but ultimately the sentence comes down to the judge. UM.
So the prosecutor can make a recommendation, the defense can,
They can even be in agreement, but the judge ultimately
can do what they feel as appropriate. Reading cases day
(36:34):
in and day out, it gives you just a totally
different perspective on society. UM. It's no longer this thing
you hear on the news that happens a way over there.
It's happening right in your community, and you actually know
all the gory details. UM. And So I found myself
affected by a lot of different cases, not just the
(36:57):
sex crimes cases, but was a part of you that
I think just does kind of shut down a bit
and change. Um. I think I'm a much harder person
since being a prosecutor. UM, nothing shocks me. UM. I
deal with education law now, I deal with a lot
of schools. UM. And when I'm training administrators, I actually
(37:20):
have liked to tell them about my background because I
tell them. When you call me and tell me that
something horrible happened in your school, don't expect a big
reaction from me, because I've seen in her way worse
probably UM, but I mean, yeah, you you you end
up kind of shutting off a part of yourself and
(37:42):
losing a part of yourself. And UM, you know, I
saw a lot of colleagues that UM, you know, would
drink heavily, UM developed drinking problems. UM. It can take
a mental toll on somebody doing that kind of profession
day in and day out. That brings us to the
end of our interviews, but we still have some more
(38:03):
for you listeners. After one more quick break for a
word from our sponsor, m HM, and we're back, Thank
you sponsor. Before we close out, we wanted to let
Justin tell you where to find them. So if people
(38:24):
want to talk to me. UM, I do a bunch
of different things. So UM, I teach multidisiplinary teams. Also
people who are not in the system, I can help
explain and bright colors and employ letter words what happened.
(38:44):
But I played between the two. And if you want
to know more about the actual brain science, I have
people that can do that too. But really for a
good understanding, I trained that I trained regulation investigations in
domestic violent investigation UM, and then I consult so a
(39:06):
lot of the consulting looks like UM going through starting
a project here soon in Worthington, Minnesota, where they received
a federal brant to go through their report system, their training,
and that their police department's gonna and spend a lot
(39:27):
of time and change out policies and do training. That's
really cool. UM. So I do that. I review UM
police reports and investigations. UM. If people need that a
lot of times I will be able to, depending on
(39:51):
the information they give me, will review their investigation quickly
and give them a ten foot what I think. If
they want a written record or anything else like that
badly enough, I do need to change charge for some
of my time. UM. But civil attorneys as well, sometimes
(40:14):
that they've paid for the report. The other stuff UH
would come on a side on the other side, Um,
but I do that. I also ke note I am
also just about finished with a look of change within
(40:34):
the Modern U Special Victims Unit. Well, um, certainly my
email is It's Justin at justin boardman dot com. My um,
my website is justin boardman dot com. So that's pretty easy. Um,
you can type in boardman. You can sometimes you can
(40:58):
search under trauma form investigation that might come up there.
Uh that's sort of me. That brings us to the
end of this our bonus episode. We hope that you
enjoyed it. Yeah. We also want to thank both Justin
and Samantha for taking time to speak with us and
being a part of this really important conversation. Yes, yes,
and thank you for joining us again, Samantha for letting
(41:23):
me be here now we're stuck in a loop of
thank you oh no, and thank you to Andrew Howard,
our producer. Thank you to the listeners for listening. Thank
you Stuff. I'm never told you he was a production
of I Heart Radio is How Stuff Works. For more
podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(41:43):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Andy and welcome to Stuff Mom never
told you a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works.
And today we have another bit, another bit, another bonus
(00:25):
episode for a bit of a bonus, A bit of
a bonus. Um and trigger warnings for today right off
the bat uh sexual assault, abuse and child Malla's station. Um.
And yeah, this is kind of similar to one we
had recently with Renee and Rebecca. You know, we discussed
the importance previously of law enforcement and dismissed cases or
(00:48):
dismissing cases, but we didn't get into what happens if
a survivor decided to go to child So we brought
into people to speak to those things. Yes, we have
today an episode of two inn used one with Justin,
an ex detective, and with another Samantha Samantha not who
worked for three years as a prosecutor in Florida and
(01:09):
you heard them clips from them in past episodes. As
we were doing these episodes. To be honest, this Samantha
and Yes, we both thought, well, with all these downsides,
why would anyone ever report? And we generally like to
end on something positive and we were having trouble finding
(01:30):
that positive thing. But then you. Samantha stumbled on this
Facebook video from Justin, who specializes in trauma informed training. Yeah.
I was really excited to see law enforcement or a
person of law enforcement come out and become an advocate
for trauma inform training because it's so rare that it
comes out of law enforcement is usually typically out of
(01:51):
like people in the world of counseling and or um
that type of level of treatment. So when he when
I saw this video, I was so excited that he,
as a strong advocate and strong ally for victims, also
got in touch with the lawyer so we could go
into what happens when a survivor actually goes to trial.
We're going to be hearing from both of them throughout
this episode, so let's get into these interviews. My name
(02:15):
is Justin Borkman, and I am a retired police detective
from the city of West Valley City in Utah, which
is the active suburb of Salt Lake City. I was
a police officer for fifteen years. I spent eight years
in patrol, so responding to um every type of problems
(02:38):
you can imagine, and in this department we responded a lot.
We did the most amount of cases per officer for
a year in the States. We were extremely understaffed. You
could go from a vehicle burglary to a gang shooting
(03:03):
in no time flat. Um. And then I went to
detective where I spent seven years in the Special Victims Unit.
During that time in the Special Victims JUnit, I was
a sign just about cases. Um. So if you do
(03:25):
the math, that's a lot of cases to burn through,
if you will. So those are adult rapes, mostly child
sexual assault, uh, child abuse, elder abuse, that sort of thing.
So it's a pretty heavy emotional type of caseload, if
you will. During this time, I went through a change,
(03:49):
and that change is starting to happen like across the
United States actually around the world. Um. And it's very
exciting time. It's also a very frustrating time for our
public and a frustrating time for the police as well.
One of the reasons that we asked you to come on.
(04:10):
I saw a video on Facebook because I get all
of these alerts and I love it that talk about
some good changes that have been happening. UM, And I
kind of wanted you if you can explain what do
you do today? So I left police work five years
before retirement so I gave up all that so that
(04:32):
I could go out and train and consult on trauma
informed investigation and procedural justice for our victims of crime
within the justice system. Can you explain a mouthful? Yeah,
that's a lot. I was gonna say. Can you explain
(04:52):
what trauma informed investigation is? What that actually is? Yes? So,
in an of itself, the two words trauma informs is confusing.
As I'll get out, there are numerous amounts of definition
to what trauma informs means, but I kind of take
(05:17):
the general version of everything, which means you're informed about
what trauma is and how it presents itself, and you're
informed about it. So that's kind of where I go.
Most of my stuff is changing the places within the
(05:39):
justice system that can be trauma informs, and when you
talk to prosecution you'll see some of that a little
bit more. But our um accused have the right to
cross examinate the accuser, so that is it's confrontational, that's
(06:02):
not trump informed. And that's just one little example. But
wherever we can make the changes to eat too. So
when I first went into the Special Missile Say here
was I was actually assigned to the property squad and
usually that is where guys will cut their teeth, learning
(06:26):
the system of screening cases and doing things differently than
what they were out on the troll. And I had
done that for six year, six your six months, and
there was an opening in the Special Victims Unit. And
what happened is I found my life calling. I would
(06:48):
go home at night and my daughter was eight years
old and I had just talked to an eight year
old about horrible things that had happened to her. But
I was being trained by the older guard of the
Special Dictrim student. We are cooked as a society, um
and especially as police officers about what sexual staff looks like.
(07:14):
What are what's normal, what's not normal? How do people present?
Most of them are faults, right, that's on our head um.
And I started the exact same way. And when we
would approach the case with the survivor, um that there
were certain ways that we did think that we're not
(07:37):
trauma forms Number one, number two. They close out the
cases fast because we had a huge caseload and we
don't have enough staffing. So I was doing the exact
same things as everybody else. And when I was investigating
(07:59):
child Sextus, assault. I was a little bit more focused.
We had a little bit more training on that. But
it seems like as soon as somebody would get UM
upward teens, young adulthood, that's a team they they just
turned into liar liar pants on fire UM. And it
(08:20):
wasn't fitting great with me, But there wasn't any way
around it. We didn't know. I would come in on
Monday morning, I would look in my box and maybe
there would be a sexual assault examined board in there, UM,
and I would look through it. And what we do
is we would call up our victim and we would say, hey, UM,
(08:42):
I just read through your board. I'm sorry this happened
to you. And I see that you don't have You're
not remembering a lot. There's alcohol involved, which happens a
lot UM. Actually alcohol is a tool UM that could
be used, can be use to futilitate sexual assault. And
(09:05):
I go, you know, there's witnesses here. Could you give
me the list of all the people that were there.
The officers didn't do that. I'm there. I'm seeing they
got one or two, but there was twenty people there.
I need to talk to UM and can give me
that information by maybe Thursday. Uh, unless you don't want
to keep going forward. While I was planting all this
(09:25):
down in their brains and I didn't know that, and
I was putting these huge tasks on somebody who has
just been raised for health. Say so, I tell them,
you know, if I don't hear from you by this date,
I'm going to close out your case, but it can
be reopened don't you feel like you want to come
forward later. Well, you know, Monday morning would come around.
(09:46):
The next Monday, I hadn't heard from them, so I
closed out their case. UM reduced what break case closed
and that was it. I'd never hear from them again.
And that first year I was we had detectives of
(10:08):
about thirty six and like I said, we were very active,
homicided everything else. And I was awarded Investigator of the
Year because I was making a lot of arrest with
the kid cases, but turning through them really fast, getting
rid of cases. But I was closing out all the
insults right. UM. A couple of years go by year
(10:35):
two and I go to a train that was poor
child sexual assault. But an attorney was there, Tea Chaine
on the neurobiology of trauma and a breakout session. So
if you've ever been to big conferences, they had these
little breakout sessions. Well, I wanted to go to another one,
(10:58):
but I was a social butterfly. Well, and I was
talking in the hall too long and the class I
wanted to was filled. But I knew my sergeant was
patrolling the hallways, so I quickly, I quickly tucked into
the neurobiology of trauma and sat in the back, and
(11:18):
she was actually talking about adult cases, not children cases,
and was explaining all the things that I was closing
the cases for was actual evidence, psychological evidence that something
(11:39):
horrible has happened to this person. So what it did
was took everything and looked at this on an ear.
Everything was opposite. So if um, she had gaps in
her memory, I would go, oh, she is making stuff
(12:00):
up and she's just hit my highlights. But now that
was actually something very bad happened to that person, and
I went, huh interesting, Okay, But I went back to
my desk and started going through my cases in regular time.
(12:22):
But I started seeing this stuff that she had mentioned.
My ah, that's weird. About months later I went and
saw her again. She was presenting it SA and then
it it happened. Um, I had my first moment of
(12:46):
aha and guilt. I started going, well, everything that the
system is defining these cases of these brave men and
women that have come forward, is actually evident that something happened.
Of the rapes that had biological evidence collected, only six
(13:12):
percent of those were being prosecuted. Um. If you've read
the book Missoula Bazoola, Montana, John Krakauer's book came in
at four percent prosecution RAG and the Department of Justice
came in and started slinging. And so we had a
(13:36):
six percent. And Violence Against Women International has a served
as study from two thousands two thousand, Well, it came
back to nationwide we were at five point six percent
of the people that reported. We know that people report
rape les, Yeah, six percent. Can you imagine if you're
(14:04):
in Atlanta, where you guys are from, at a prosecution
rate of six percent of popify, what would your public do?
So we had a six percent prosecution rate. Um, and
so we installed this protocol. Is some training with the detectives,
(14:25):
We did all sorts of different things with the full
board UH Institutional Review Board study from university so in
a here we went to six percent, which is a
increase with fall numbers, but honestly, gouts pent. That sucks,
(14:49):
but we could do better than that. And so that's
what's been starting to change around the country in law
enforcement is we're starting to learn about this trauma stuff,
and this trauma stuff we actually have been taught about
(15:10):
on and on in the police academy, however in a
different area. So what that means is when we train,
we train most of the stuff that's on our bat
felt for safety, but we do think during um firearms
(15:34):
training that is to help with trauma. But we haven't
been giving that to our victim. We haven't recognized it
and them. So there's a huge disconnecting that can actually
start changing tomorrow. Um. It's not gonna be an overnight thing,
(15:55):
but it can start changing tomorrow. Um we just go
you're extremely hard to change. Um that it needs to
start now, and there's so much positive things happening. Also,
part of that study was how did our victim feel
after the interview, not after the investigation is done, but
(16:19):
from report to interaction with detective And we had a
nineties seven percent positive feedback from our victim was a
trauma informed or right after the trauma forms interview, not
after the investigation. Was because some of them would not
(16:39):
uh the prosecutive That could certainly change it, but we
wanted to know how they felt up to that point,
if they felt her listen to uh that sort of thing.
And it was seven per seven positive. So that is
indications that we're doing something right. Sadly, we're not going
(17:01):
to prosecute every single case. It doesn't mean that our
rapists is not guilty of it. Most of them are
um really false reports tiny tiny bit um two to
eight percent is what they say out of my twelfth
under cases I had to that I proved probab will
(17:24):
cause is a high standard that we have to meet legally.
UM civil standard is our victim could be and should
be filing lawsuits against their um they're suspect. What we
need to figure out, I think, is what justice looks
(17:47):
like to our victim. It's gonna be different from everybody,
like a fingerprint, like your trauma. Everybody's aunt um and
may its procedural justice and counseling. Maybe it's not the
justice system, maybe it's the civil system. Maybe it is
(18:09):
the justice system, and we're gonna try our best I
have one of my survivors who would also be happy
to talk. Went through the system that did not trauma informed.
She went through the interview process and stuff that was UM.
She was it was an alcohol facilitated and sexual assault
(18:30):
at her home with her husband in another room with
some other friends and stuff and UM, DNA evidence everything,
And it went for three years waiting for triumph and
(18:51):
then at trial, UM, the jury came back not guilty.
I was devastated. I was actually in another state training.
It was just was last year. Do you know what?
I got a text messages checking on me from my victims. Wow,
(19:15):
that's procedural justice. She was devastated, but she knew she
was heard of all the way through that and she
got to say her peace. UM. It's sad our jury
pools are not the as educated and that's kind of
what you guys are doing right now for us, beautiful.
(19:35):
So usually who brings me in our nonprofit victim organization
UM paid for by Bedroom Bram, so Pedroom Bram don't
pay him a lot, But it's more about the passion
and getting out small areas and talking about it for me. UM.
(19:58):
Sometimes the police department will and they're guarding to do
that a little bit more now. But police department, sadly enough,
they spend what little training money that they have towards UM,
(20:18):
towards things that they get sued for. Our survivors are
victims of sexual assaults around the country. Their cases have
been in a way well, I don't know if that
can even this word this handled. And you know, I
(20:41):
did some of the same things. I didn't know what
I didn't know. But sometimes little civil lawsuits like that
will help change the system. Uh So that's happening in
bigger scales around the country at this point. There's a
big class action lawsuits and pot of Texas where I
(21:01):
think it's a deven or eight Jane does are is
doing the sheriff's department, the police department, in the District
Attorney's office, UM sporting finding their cases. When you think
about this, with the prosecution rate of four percent, five
point six percent, six percent, even most of the people
(21:28):
that report sexual assault our female, when you prosecute, only
a single digit percent of the cases comes out to
be gender discrimination. So there's a lot of change starting
(21:48):
to happen. We talked a little bit about where you
mentioned earlier about the B two movements, which has did
nothing but good UM for our systems. Of course, people
are being freaked out, and there's uh men that are
overreacting to it UM thinking that they can't do this,
(22:13):
that or the other. Content. It's not it's not hard. However,
the me too movement has only scratched a tiny tiny
bit of the surface. If you look at the surveys
and the studies, he ain't seen nothing yet. The amount
(22:33):
of false reports of other cases equals doubt to be
the same as sexual soft um so false burglary cases
for insurance fraud same percentage both UM, crashes of cars
for insurance same thing UM. And some of it done criminally,
(23:00):
some of it is done because of UM mental and
psychological problem. If it's something that the victim feels like,
they want to talk out through a mediator and not
go through the other stuff, at least get to acknowledgement
(23:22):
or some sort of closure or an agreement UM, whether
it's monetary or counseling or what have you. That may
not be a bad thing either. They depends on what
justice looks like to you. Since you were talking to
and your listeners are more on the jury pool. The
(23:43):
way their biology happened, and way it presents two people
as counterintuitive to what we were raised to think and see.
And the first person that's somebody to disclose the sexual assaults,
who is so important to the system and to their
(24:06):
um healing, the victim's healing. And you know you hear
the term starting by believing that's good. Um, things like that,
but really just show some empathy and don't question about
what happened. Um, are suspects, if you will. Our are
(24:27):
can be predators, and they worked very hard and they're
very good at what they do. And people think that
the victims are lying. They were set up, they were
groomed for the most part um and rape is not
something that happened in back alleyways often. UM, it's mostly
(24:49):
acquaintance rapes. And so give them the love that they
need and hear them out. That would be the big
thing we agree to ful partly. And since we are
talking to the potential jury, let's talk about what a
trial might look like. We'll get into that after a
quick break for a word from our sponsor, h and
(25:19):
we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, what happens if after
filing the police report, a survivor does decide to go
to court. UM. Yeah, and here's Samantha, who is going
to speak more on that. I'm Samantha. I was a
prosecutor for three years down in Florida. UM. I did
primarily felony prosecutions, UM, which included drug cases and assaults
(25:44):
and sex crimes and all of that stuff. I would say,
out of the sex crimes cases that came through our door,
maybe ten to fifteen percent were the adult cases. Unfortunately,
the majority of X crimes that prosecutors deal with, at
least in the jurisdictions UM I was in where child
(26:05):
molestation cases. So typically at the point where a prosecutor's
office is gonna get the case or be assigned the
case UM is after the initial report has been submitted
by the victim. UM, all of those initial steps by
law enforcement have taken place, the you know, a rape kit,
potentially interviews, UM investigation. The investigation might still be ongoing
(26:29):
when it's submitted to the prosecutor's office, but typically there's
enough to substantiate and arrest UM and charge the person
UM the perpetrator. So UM at that point, the prosecutor's
office really takes over and it really becomes a legal
situation at that point, moving towards trial. UM. In the
(26:53):
office that I used to work in, and I think
it's probably true in most offices, there's some sort of
victim liaison UM. We used to call them a victim
advocate SIGNED. Typically there are people who have a social
work background, some sort of experience, and they really coordinate
between the victim and the prosecutor assigned to that matter
(27:16):
UM to keep the victim in the loop about the case,
what's going on, answer any questions that they may have,
and that sort of thing. So from the point of
the initial charging to a trial UM. Sex prime matters
tend to be more serious, so they can take UM
quite quite a bit of time to actually go to
(27:37):
a trial. I would estimate probably about a year UM,
give or take. It can depend on a number of factors,
how busy the courtroom is, that that case is assigned
to other types of trials that might be in the
pipeline ahead ahead of it UM, and just availability of witnesses,
(27:57):
availability of law enforcement to come to stify UM, and
also sometimes what is best for the victim. Now, in
most jurisdictions there is the defendant does have a right
to something called a speedy trial that they can invoke,
which would speed up the process of the trial UM
usually six days something of that nature. In reality, though
(28:21):
very few people UM invoke that right to a speedy
trial UM's it just generally doesn't benefit a defendant to
do that. I would have thought the opposite. They usually
want to conduct try to get as much discovery as possible.
And what is discovery Just for people to understand, sure,
that's basically the exchange of information. So the defendant side
(28:44):
is gonna want to see every all the information that
the law enforcement has, the prosecutors have that they're going
to use at the trial UM, and prosecutors are required
to turn over anything that might exculpaid or UM be
beneficial to the defendants. UM. Discovery can also include depositions,
which is when the defense attorney is going to have
(29:07):
an opportunity to interview UM witnesses on the record, sworn
under oath, and it'll be transcribed the standard for criminal cases,
it's the highest standard there is, beyond a reasonable doubt UM.
We say, the only thing short of that is no
doubt UM. So the prosecutors are always mindful of their
(29:28):
standard of evidence that they're going to have to prove
in order to get a jury to convict, because that's
ultimately the goal is a jury conviction. UM. So there
are occasions when the case ends up being dismissed by
the prosecutor. In my office, that was fairly rare. We
wanted to really do that work up front to make
sure we were proceeding with cases that could go to trial,
(29:52):
and when there were weaknesses in our case, we were
more apt to try to look at a play or
something of that nature UM that maybe neither side was
totally happy with but could live with. UM. So that
would that would be our first priority before just simply
dropping a case. So in the courtroom, UM, these trials
(30:13):
are almost always going to be jury trials. UM. So
the first step is that the prosecutor is going to
select the jury, and the victim won't be UM at
this portion. Frankly, they won't really be in the courtroom
at all except to UM provide their testimony. Once they
do testify, they can usually sit in the courtroom for
the remainder of the trial if they want to UM.
(30:35):
But before they testify, there's something called a rule of sequestration,
which means that they don't want witnesses um testimony be
influenced by each other, So they don't want people who
haven't testified yet to be sitting in there hearing what
other people are saying. So until a witness, until a
victim testifies, they're usually not going to be in the
(30:56):
courtroom for all of the preliminary issues on the day
of the victims testimony. Again, our office had that victim
advocate that would be there with them. UM. They would
have been prepared by the prosecutor ahead of time, typically
walked through general questions that the prosecutors plan to ask UM,
(31:21):
and that really that's kind of a prosecutor by prosecutor thing.
I personally never liked to give people the specific questions
I was going to ask them. I wanted them to
know generally areas I was going to ask, because I
didn't want people to over prepare and them be thrown
off if something went astray. UM. But then they would
(31:44):
come in the courtroom. Usually our victim advocate would sit
in the courtroom so that they would have somebody UM
to be to look at, a friendly face to look at.
And I always encourage them, UM to really talk to
the jury. UM. Direct their answers to the jury and
to the judge, because those are the people that are
really making up the mind. You don't want to be
sitting there looking at your attacker, looking at the defendant,
(32:07):
looking at their attorney. Um. Obviously, the thing that we
try to prepare them for but really can't always be
prepared for is the cross examination, but um, the defendant's attorney,
and that can be really difficult for the victims, that part,
because they are really there to try to discredit their
testimony as much as possible. Typically, by the time they
(32:31):
gave their direct testimony of what had happened, it was
also emotional at that point. Um. And you know, again,
we tried to prepare them as much as possible for
that cross examination. UM, but I can't even begin to
imagine what it is like to be discredited like that
and um, you know, be made to feel like what
(32:53):
you're saying is dishonest in some way because it's it's
so difficult to just come forward from the get go
and even get to that point where you're sitting in
a courtroom. UM. And I think everyone is different. I
have heard from some victims that it's actually quite empowering.
To sit there and tell their story two people. UM,
(33:14):
it gives them that sense of self back, um. But
for other people it is quite a difficult experience to
go through. How often does it how long does it
usually take? I know it's probably based on the type
of case or whatever, But for a victim to come
and do their portion of questioning and cross examination, it
really depends on the case and how detailed it is.
(33:37):
I would estimate a half day to a day of testimony.
A lot of them do pleay out ahead of time
and out of the date. The forcible rape. Adult forcible
rape situations were usually a bit easier to convict. Um.
The date rape really does come down to a lot
of times, unfortunately, he said, she said, situation. And one
(34:03):
of the biggest problems I think in taking cases to
trial UM has really been the effective shows like C
S I and things like that, where they're showing all
of this like voodoo evidence going on, and we don't
have those things. There's not a computer that you can,
you know, submit a five or two and it tells
(34:23):
you that a shirt was purchased in New Hampshire or
something of that nature, and those things done exists. UM.
So when you do have the cases where your evidence
is really testimony. You do have some jurors that I
don't want to believe that that's really evidence. They want
that physical evidence UM to point to. So that's really
(34:46):
the difficulty with the convictions on you know what is
commonly known as the date rate type scenarios when it
comes down to a trial for example, though it really
depends a little bit more on what the jury feels
consent is and where that that moves on the on
the line. So literally it's for the prosecution or the
(35:08):
defense to try to define it for them and what
they believe consent is. Essentially so the sentencing process. Typically
sentencing is going to be set for a different day,
unless there is it's a crime where there's a mandatory
sentence that needs to be imposed. Sometimes the judge will
um impose the sentence immediately after the trial, but typically
(35:28):
it's set for a later date. UM. Victims do have
the opportunity to talk UM and are encouraged to a
lot of them find that healing preparis statement UM it's
called your victim impact statement typically is what it's called
in most jurisdictions, and it's your opportunity to tell the
judge how this has impacted your life, how this has
(35:50):
changed your life in any in all areas. UM. It's
also your opportunity to, you know, tell that perpetrator know
how you feel about them. UM. And UM. You know,
it depends on the jurisdiction and the crime. UM. Some
of them have mandatory sentences, UM, some very A lot
(36:13):
of times the prosecutor will talk to the victim about
what sentence or range of sentence they feel comfortable with,
but ultimately the sentence comes down to the judge. UM.
So the prosecutor can make a recommendation, the defense can,
They can even be in agreement, but the judge ultimately
can do what they feel as appropriate. Reading cases day
(36:34):
in and day out, it gives you just a totally
different perspective on society. UM. It's no longer this thing
you hear on the news that happens a way over there.
It's happening right in your community, and you actually know
all the gory details. UM. And So I found myself
affected by a lot of different cases, not just the
(36:57):
sex crimes cases, but was a part of you that
I think just does kind of shut down a bit
and change. Um. I think I'm a much harder person
since being a prosecutor. UM, nothing shocks me. UM. I
deal with education law now, I deal with a lot
of schools. UM. And when I'm training administrators, I actually
(37:20):
have liked to tell them about my background because I
tell them. When you call me and tell me that
something horrible happened in your school, don't expect a big
reaction from me, because I've seen in her way worse
probably UM, but I mean, yeah, you you you end
up kind of shutting off a part of yourself and
(37:42):
losing a part of yourself. And UM, you know, I
saw a lot of colleagues that UM, you know, would
drink heavily, UM developed drinking problems. UM. It can take
a mental toll on somebody doing that kind of profession
day in and day out. That brings us to the
end of our interviews, but we still have some more
(38:03):
for you listeners. After one more quick break for a
word from our sponsor, m HM, and we're back, Thank
you sponsor. Before we close out, we wanted to let
Justin tell you where to find them. So if people
(38:24):
want to talk to me. UM, I do a bunch
of different things. So UM, I teach multidisiplinary teams. Also
people who are not in the system, I can help
explain and bright colors and employ letter words what happened.
(38:44):
But I played between the two. And if you want
to know more about the actual brain science, I have
people that can do that too. But really for a
good understanding, I trained that I trained regulation investigations in
domestic violent investigation UM, and then I consult so a
(39:06):
lot of the consulting looks like UM going through starting
a project here soon in Worthington, Minnesota, where they received
a federal brant to go through their report system, their training,
and that their police department's gonna and spend a lot
(39:27):
of time and change out policies and do training. That's
really cool. UM. So I do that. I review UM
police reports and investigations. UM. If people need that a
lot of times I will be able to, depending on
(39:51):
the information they give me, will review their investigation quickly
and give them a ten foot what I think. If
they want a written record or anything else like that
badly enough, I do need to change charge for some
of my time. UM. But civil attorneys as well, sometimes
(40:14):
that they've paid for the report. The other stuff UH
would come on a side on the other side, Um,
but I do that. I also ke note I am
also just about finished with a look of change within
(40:34):
the Modern U Special Victims Unit. Well, um, certainly my
email is It's Justin at justin boardman dot com. My um,
my website is justin boardman dot com. So that's pretty easy. Um,
you can type in boardman. You can sometimes you can
(40:58):
search under trauma form investigation that might come up there.
Uh that's sort of me. That brings us to the
end of this our bonus episode. We hope that you
enjoyed it. Yeah. We also want to thank both Justin
and Samantha for taking time to speak with us and
being a part of this really important conversation. Yes, yes,
and thank you for joining us again, Samantha for letting
(41:23):
me be here now we're stuck in a loop of
thank you oh no, and thank you to Andrew Howard,
our producer. Thank you to the listeners for listening. Thank
you Stuff. I'm never told you he was a production
of I Heart Radio is How Stuff Works. For more
podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
(41:43):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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