Bonus Episode: Women and Likability

In this bonus episode, Jack and Miles of The Daily Zeitgeist stop by to discuss the likability factor.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff I've
never told you. Today we are joined by Jack and
Miles from the Dailies at podcast. Thanks so much for

(00:26):
joining us today. I'm so excited to have you. Well,
thanks for having us. Yeah, we're excited to be on
the show. I'm really sorry I don't have a fun
intro song for you. I know that's that's something I
always enjoy when I listen to your podcast. Well, yeah,
that's those are all fans submitted, so we don't have
the the the genius to come up with those ourselves. Yeah,

(00:47):
but we start off our show by inserting our names
into classic songs as a k s. Because we are narcissists. Well,
I I enjoy it, and your fans are very impressive
of and you both have the distinction of being the
second and third man on the show. I think, I
think so. Yeah, yeah, it was correct. H fived each

(01:11):
other in a really manly masculine went let go in
my hand. Oh perfect, there's no pressure. No pressure here. Um.
And for the listeners, you might have heard me over
on their show a couple of months ago, where I
said one of my most controversial public statements ever so
go check that out if you haven't heard it, but

(01:33):
please don't rain down the fire of anger. I already
went through it. Don't do it again. Um. And interestingly,
the day I was on your show, the first Avengers
in game trailer had dropped and we talked about it,
and today the second one drops. So anytime there's a
particular trailer that I'm excited about, we have to do

(01:54):
a podcast together. That's just science. I actually arranged it.
I had model that just tolign things up. I felt
like it would give us a good jumping off point
for this conversation, and look at that. It worked out.
That's why he kept pushing the date. We're like, just
get it to land on the four teeth right right,
that's perfect. I didn't I didn't know you had that. Sway,

(02:14):
what do you think about the trailer? Um? I I
really liked it. The last one was kind of very
sparse on the details, so I watched that one like
twenty two times. This one I've watched twice, and I
think it's kind of spoilery. So I'm not going to
watch it anymore and dissect it. Um. It has given me.
I don't want any spoilers that I haven't even seen

(02:35):
the first Avengers movie. That's how I'm afraid of the
spoilers I am. That's you know, that's that's a really
interesting approach. Yeah, I hadn't considered that. Um, I do
like trying to guess ending, So what I think I'm
gonna do so no one thinks I just like lie
and say I guessed it. I'm going to write down
when I think happens, seal it in an envelope, and

(02:56):
give it to a friend, and then after the movie
I can see how correct I was and have that
notarized too. So if SAMs or butts about it, you know,
you don't want someone to accuse you of having a
plant to pull this off. So it's just that. Yeah,
I was gonna say, email it to yourself, but I'm
pretty sure you can copy and paste, so yeah, that
can be tampered them receipts, though I can't take that metadata.

(03:22):
That's true. That's true. I don't want anyone questioning. I
want to win fair and square. So the topic that
you pitched today is likability and the betrayal of women
in the media and particularly politics. Correct. Yeah, yes, um,
and is there any particular reason you pitched this topic.

(03:44):
I mean, I but it kind of was one of
the more unfair things that we saw in the elections,
sort of the double standard that the two candidates seemed
to be held to. Uh, And then we were seeing
it kind of crop up again as the Democratic field
started filling out for the election. Um, I think we're

(04:06):
gonna specifically talk about Elizabeth Warren, but that was a
thing that I was hearing brought up in the context
of her candidacy quite a bit. And then just from
a personal standpoint, I just always noticed a wild double standard.
I used to I started the website cracked dot com,
and we used to post videos and articles by women,

(04:29):
and I just noticed a huge double standard in the
comments section when it came to, you know, what women
would say versus what men would say. That that people
would really get upset about, uh, you know, the personas
of women and you know, uh impure assume that they

(04:51):
could read the minds of the women and uh, you know,
add on all sorts of weird uh context that they
thought the the person was, you know, just assuming unlikable
things about the person. And I think also just as
you know, the Democratic Party begins to be a little
more representative of what the base looks like or what

(05:12):
the country looks like. Just seeing how all these new
batch of women entering Congress are also like the first
thing they're dealing with is that same double standard, Like
immediately right, right, because one of the first things that
Politico ran after Elizabeth warren't announced she was running for
president was an article about her likability. Right, Yeah, it's

(05:34):
just like, yeah, I mean, yeah, she's really smart and
qualified in everything. Was she likable? Right? Do people like
her too desperate for people to like her? Yes? Yes,
there was that question after she did the Instagram video
of her cooking and she had a beer and immediately afterwards,
everyone was like, she's so desperate to appear likable. And

(05:55):
I have always thought that was a weird thing, Like,
I know any of people who don't drink, but there's
this whole political I could get a beer with that person,
get it. But it's strange. Yeah, it's a way to
communicate where we're all normal people and I drink beer.
I drink your favorite favorite beverage as well. But yeah,

(06:18):
it's really funny. The media, like the mainstream media, when
it comes to women in politics turn into like high
school bullies, like they're just like, it's so desperate for
our approval and just like really like mean girl type stuff. Right,
Like Elizabeth Warren has a beer and it's like, oh god,

(06:39):
she's trying to trick us all, like she's not the elitist.
Brett Kavanaugh was like, I like beer, and people like
you see he's not a sex predator. Okay, like forty
times yeah, he's primary quit. It seemed like he thought
that was his primary qualification, right, being on the Supreme
Court for emphasis on beer. Really right, I like beer

(07:02):
just like the every man right right. Also, I mean, look,
Elizabeth Warren someone I love to have a meal with,
not just a beer. Yeah, I want to pick her brain. Yeah,
well that that is a better approach I me in
my opinion. Um, she also has a dog now Bailey,
and everyone loves this dog. They chant his or her name.

(07:22):
I don't know at rallies. But still people are saying
she did it as an attempt to be more likable,
which maybe maybe, but still it's odd that that's the
first thing, Oh that dog is just to be likable.
I mean you kind of saw this with Hillary where
it was it was this unwinnable scenario where you know,

(07:45):
she was too robotic and too calculating or you know, shrill.
But then anytime she did something that seemed like in
response to that observation or criticism than she is like
you know, the it was, it was an impossible scenario
to to win. And it seems like they've already set

(08:08):
up that catch twenty two for Elizabeth Warren. And you know,
if she does feel the need to respond to these
incredibly unfair standards that uh, you know, the mainstream media
holds women too in politics, like that shouldn't be something
that we uh judge her negatively for. It's the reality

(08:30):
of the situation and it's terrible. And again, yes she
gets a dog the shouts of the conspiracy to try
and come off more billion of people. Yet you know,
no one cares that Trump is like one of the
few presidents who's never had a pet, right, yes, and
like yeah, I mean that's fine, that's fine, you know whatever,
Like he's being real, he's being authentically a person who
hates life. Right. He always gets credited for being authentic

(08:54):
even though he live all the time. And Hillary Clinton
had the office that where she was inauthentic because I
think she was trying to walk this line of being
likable but also tough, like not too feminine, and yeah,
that that really bothered me during the election. How many
of my friends would say, I just I just don't

(09:16):
like her. She's not likable, she's in off pick like yeah, yeah,
she was probably coached to be that, right, right, Yeah.
That was always the things like there's something about her
I don't know, and you're like, wait, but hold on,
this is a binary decision here, like are you still
going to sit this one out? I mean I knew
people who actually would vote a third party because of

(09:39):
that same really vague reason. It's like I don't know
something about him, Like are you is this because you're
just conditioned to just be suspicious of a woman trying
to enter this fear of like male dominated politics, or
like what do you can you even articulate what this thing?
You can't put your finger on? Right? Yeah, And we've
talked a lot on this show about a idea around

(10:01):
female ambition and female power, and I think a lot
of that we saw play out in that election, and
UM will definitely come back to that a little later
in this episode. I did want to go back to
Elizabeth Warren for a second because Democratic analyst Dan Payne
he had some advice for her when she was running.

(10:22):
Take it from a man, ye Smith, smile a little
bit more. Oh my gosh, I get that all the time.
I hate it. Um. She was running for Senate in
twelve and he told her to lose the granny glasses,
soften the hair, and get coaching, to deepen her voice,
which grates on some, and have a little modesty and
stop the finger wagging. It adds to her strict schoolmarm

(10:43):
appearance and bossy manner. Yes, that the other buzzword, Yeah,
another buzzword dripped from the playground anytime you hear it.
It's just absolute. Well, that just shows you how early
on we're conditioned right to look at things like that,
because bossy is like one of the first things, like
your first criticisms you learn as a kid for a woman,

(11:06):
only the right, Yeah, likes a man is like a boss, right, exactly,
loss the boss, but yeah exactly. But yeah, that whole
bossy angle is really just I think shows you where
that's that That's exactly where it's coming from. Yeah, right,
Like bossy or bitchy. Those are immediately to shut you down,
to take away your credibility, and they're they're used that way.

(11:29):
They're kind of weaponized to make you basically shut up. Right.
The voice thing to I mean, that's like Elizabeth Holmes
from Sarainos, like her game plan is the deepen deepening
of the voice, which is interesting because we we were
talking with someone who's like a speech coach and just
sort of the ways in which you know, women are

(11:50):
meant to take up less space or condition to take
up less space even with their voices, and even that
you know, extends into like, well, then how some people
are trying to flip that complete and single then let
me adopt something deeper, more masculine to even be heard.
Another example of where I've seen this in my day
to day life is with vocal fry on podcasts. I

(12:13):
actually think this was there was an episode of This
American Life where they talked about, uh, you know that
the top comment that they get from people is criticism
of women who report for them having vocal fry. But
then I heard Glass was like, listen to my voice
and I have vocal fry too. You just don't mind

(12:33):
when I do it because you know, you're sublimating some
uh feelings that you have that are tied up in
sexuality and gender. I could go on and on about
vocal Fry and the complaints we get about it. There
is this notorious fan and any quotes fan letter that

(12:55):
um one of our other podcasts gott and they did
an episode on vocal Fry, and somebody were it in
and said, um, women are doing this because they perceive
it as higher class men perceive it in a different way,
and we control the world. If they don't care about
our opinion, they can continue. They want to be hired,
and they should learn to control this speech impediment And
was and was his e d cured after he said that,

(13:21):
If it was, I would love to know about that cure.
R toxic masculinity to reassert your dominance in really lame way. Yeah,
when we run the world, Oh what a poor poor man.
Clear as clearly evidenced by the fact that you are
writing letters to a podcast company exerting your immense power

(13:43):
over the world. Um. Yeah, And I mean also I
think that story goes on to her. Another article that
I read about vocal Fry, I went on to point
out that women tend to be actually speech innovators. Like
they talked about up speak or of ending your sentence
on the up thing. It sounds like less definitive, and

(14:05):
that started with Valley Girls, but now like that's the
only way I know how to end with up speak,
and uh, they're saying vocal fry. The same thing is happening,
you know, we're it's spreading around the world. So there
is a lot of these tendencies that people overtly criticized.

(14:26):
They're probably critical of them because uh, they know how
they know how powerful women and to be. Yeah, yeah
it is. That would be a different podcast. But working
in in this industry and like receiving those those complaints

(14:47):
and then you get all in your head about well
how do I speak? Is this terrible? And that the
curve of learning just don't think about it. Yeah, I'm
going back to you, Elizabeth Warren and that that not
so great advice that that analyst gave her. There has
been a lot of comparison to the coverage of Bernie Sanders,

(15:08):
who was sort of given this cool guy pass for
his shouting and finger wagging and glasses and hair um
and yeah, the coverage of Warren. It's just pretty stark
how different it is, even though a lot of the
qualities are kind of similar. It's almost impossible to imagine

(15:31):
a woman politician who doesn't comb their hair and whose
clothes don't fit them, and who like is constantly coming
in and rumpled outfits that they clearly just took a
nap in, because that would just never happen, and if
it did, people would call her presumably a cat lady

(15:55):
or something like that. You know, it would just be
it would not be even m botely allowed. But with
Bernie Sanders, it's just like he's a lovable he's grandpa. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Grandpa exactly. Many ideas an unequality, that's right, And I
do find it funny, not funny that when Hillary Clinton

(16:18):
got the twenties sixteen nomination, the press was like, why
didn't the Democratic Party choose someone more likable like Elizabeth Warren?
There you go, I don't know, Yeah, you can find
article when no one will ever he can never win there.
It really is that impossible game until Oprah runs, And
even then they're gonna be like, yeah, oh, I mean

(16:40):
you only like her because she tells you cool stuff
to buy. She's really more of a consumer advocate. The
first question Kirsten jill Brand got by the press after
she had announced she was a presidential candidate, it came
with the preface, I think a lot of people see

(17:00):
you as a pretty likable, a nice person. Oh yeah.
So trying to imagine that being something that somebody said
to a male politician. I think if someone said that,
it would be like negative, it would be perceived as
a weakness. Right, yeah, that would be a particularly devastating

(17:23):
line of questioning for betto right, like, look, you're nice,
you're a nice guy, You're very like nice enough, but
it implies a lack of substance, right yeah. Um, in
the world, no, no no, no worries. Um. In the words
of Shilpa Podka, the vice president of the Washington think

(17:44):
tank Center for American Progress, quote, of course voters, sexism
and outright misogyny still exist. There's a constant focus for
women on what they're wearing, what they look like. In
the tone of their voice, it's almost as if they're
not only running for president but also running for Miss America.
Uh yes, I think that's a great way of pointing
out the bind that women politicians are in it. Well,

(18:08):
it's even the Yeah, the pageantry aspect is even applying,
Like it's again, it's this fine line. It's like, well,
what are they wearing whatever? But then Alexandro Kazio Cortez like, oh,
what she's wearing is two nice too nice? Yeah, I
thought you were a poor right now, what's this? A
person of the people? Yet she wears nice clothes and

(18:29):
then they start listing off the price of all of
her clothing. The dancing was like, the biggest controversy on
the right particularly is that she was a person in
college who danced to music. Because we all foot loose town.
Apparently that's disqualifying. We all know it. Um. I actually

(18:52):
read a really long essay about how if you look
at the I guess this was as an eight um
and Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin both like Clinton personified
the Madonna and Palin personified the horror. And you have
to be there's like a space in between that you

(19:14):
have to exist where men have to believe they have
a chance with you, and that's one of the only
ways you can succeed. Yeah, yeah, Jack, let's just see
ourselves out. Why are you even talking to it forgot
past like tone. I would add to you can't be

(19:40):
too pretty because there is that bimbo trope of um
people perceiving you as incompetent if you're too beautiful, so right,
you can't possibly be smart, which is why you see
Alexandria Occasio Cortez attacked for you know, saying like too
many times or any time she gets the fact wrong. Meanwhile,

(20:01):
if you look at any member of the house, like
they are constantly speaking in front of cameras, they get
details wrong. But she has held up to that because
you know, it kind of helps people reconcile their feelings
about yes, wanting to have a chance with her, I think,
and she's also not, you know, discouraged by the criticis

(20:23):
she doesn't even respond to it in a way that's normal,
And I think that's what bothers a lot of the
trolls out there who wanted to try and shame her,
because at no point does she really ever you know,
give her power away to like these outrage mobs on
the internet or just on like Fox News. She just
sort of perseveres calls out the sexism, misogyny, hypocrisy of

(20:43):
whatever the criticisms are of her and then keeps it moving.
They're like it will find something else. Then, yeah, that's probably.
I don't know of a better way to to deal
with criticism than that, um in this public realm. So
kudos to her. Yeah, And going back to clothing choices,
I love how oh women cannot win on this one.

(21:05):
And there's things like sneaker gay and heal gay and
like pant suit gate, like they turn it, they blow
it up into this huge thing, and I'm thinking, we can't.
Can we not just move on from the clothing and
talk about the issues. I guess not. But the clothing
indicates how much of a chance I have. Exactly. They

(21:28):
have to be right exactly, not too threatening and not
too like pushing any boundaries. They don't want any of that.
I have to be able to bring you home to
my mother, but also think about you when I'm not
when I'm alone. Walk that line. Yeah, easy, easy, and
kind of like we were talking about earlier. Men are

(21:50):
rewarded and even considered likable for displaying more masculine I
would say, unlikable qualities like anger, rudeness, loudness, rashness, and
women are punished for that behavior to aggressive, to shrill,
too bossy, too bitchy. But they're also punished for just
playing traditionally feminine behaviors, and so are men. And and

(22:13):
this is punished by men and women. To be clear,
a lot of times it's less about likability and more
about violating traditional gender norms. Right, It's just that with
women in powerful positions, both poles are wrong and also
both like middle grounds are wrong. It's just people, uh,

(22:34):
find a way to disqualify any woman. Well, yeah, and
especially the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation was just that whole idea
of just shown in public so aggressively, where someone who's
screaming at a senator and being so disrespectful, and again
it was he was sticking up for himself, was sticking

(22:57):
to his guns against the bullies. Meanwhile, like and then
if you just look at how how people viewed Christine
blasi Ford or even like Serena Williams right in the tournament, right,
and it's just sort of like, oh my goodness, we
can't have this now someone someone's sticking up for themselves.
Only guys can do that, yeah, Serena Williams versus how

(23:17):
people judged John McEnroe. With John Right, it was like,
we're going to give him. This is gonna be his thing.
He's the bad boy. With Serena Williams, everyone was like,
what is happening? Like, call the doctors, right, something's wrong.
She's hysterical. She can't play anymore. We can't stand for this.

(23:39):
In the words of Rock sand gay likability is a
very elaborate lie, a performance, a code of conduct dictating
the proper way to be. And I think that that
is key to a lot of what we're talking about.
And there was the study that I found when I
was researching sexism and language, and it was looking into

(24:01):
people who outright admitted to thinking women were lesser than men,
and it found yeah, yeah, there are people out there
that yep, both men and women. And it found that
male respondents described themselves with these words that are coded
that were masculine, and they that was they saw that
as a huge benefit. And the female respondents described themselves

(24:22):
and words like not tolerable, I'm not tolerable, I'm not empathetic,
also going out of their way to say, essentially, I
am not like those other girls, because in our culture,
masculine is better than feminine m yeah. Um. And the
argument at the end of of this paper was that

(24:44):
you can see it in the feminization of the Democratic
Party as opposed to the masculinization of the Republican Party.
The Democratic Party needs to be likable, but the Republican
Party takes pride in not being likable, like being aggressive,
of being not being politically correct, and yeah, they're kind
of largely rewarded for it. Yeah. I mean, Republicans like

(25:06):
to say that Democrats are mom, We're dead, and they
think that's a positive thing. Right. It's like, oh, if
you want to go and cry to somebody, the Democrats
are there, joined the snowflakes over here. We're over here
getting our hands dirty with the blood of protesters, right like,
we will, we will take the aggressive military action because

(25:27):
we're tough. We're not thinkers. We're not at our book
club trying to solve our problems with nuanced debate. Right
to send your kids to war? Right? Yeah. It's uh,
it's really interesting to view along like so many of
the issues come down to gender roles or like how

(25:50):
people feel about traditional sexual and gender roles, like so
many of the left right issues. Really, I'll lot of
them I find to come down to just you know,
am I willing to empathize with women? I think in
a lot of cases, am I willing to admit that

(26:13):
a woman is also a person like me and has
an internal life like me? Well? Right? And I think
that even comes out with that testicular bill of rights
bill right, or you know, collection of bills that a
state legislator in Georgia put out to merely putting men
to give them a second to imagine what would it
be like if there were restrictive laws against their reproductive health?

(26:34):
And the thing is just like just received with screams outrage. Yeah,
it's it's one of those I mean, I remember seeing
signs that said go back to the kitchen Hillary at
her at her campaign rallies. And it does play such
a large role these kind of gender norms and gender

(26:56):
politics in our politics, and it's kind of strange to
me that it still plays a large role. I don't know, Well,
it's like, you know, I think, like who we vote
for president is kind of in a weird way, like
a ten thousand foot view of where how far we've progressed.
And I think it shows that like racism is less

(27:17):
ingrained than misogyny and patriarchy, because people were been like,
all right, a black guy, I can vote for that.
And then when it got shaken up a little bit,
there was clearly like just this real, like misplaced sentiment
against Hillary that I mean, sure there are things that
people might not have agreed on, but even when it
came down to you know, xenophobic, homophobic man versus a woman,

(27:40):
then all then it was I think it was easier
for people to be like, it's easier for me to
think this other way than to try and feel like
I'm I'm like that society was ready to accept this.
I don't know, it just it was It's sort of
I saw the elements of that too. It's just sort
of how I thought, oh, well, we've had a black president,
so maybe things are moving forward. And then I'm like, ah, okay,

(28:01):
we still there's still a few more rivers we need
to cross. Yeah, and any like you were saying, it's
it comes down to I mean, it's in everything. It's
in our language, Like everything has some connotation when it
comes to masculinity or femininity, and so it's it's a
lot harder to avoid having judgmental thoughts when it comes

(28:25):
to how you feel about women in power versus you know. Oh,
and I also just want to clarify I don't mean
that the election of Barack Obama ment racism was over
said views were slightly um. So we have some more

(28:46):
for you listeners, but first we're going to pause for
a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
we're back. Thank you sponsor. I've spent a lot of
time thinking about and I'm hoping to do an episode

(29:07):
on it. Women who who voted for Trump and um
or or didn't vote for Hillary, like, wouldn't vote for
Hillary whatever was um And I had friends who like,
to me, I was witnessing internalized misogyny that it was
kind of like what you were saying. They couldn't put
their finger on it, but they're like, oh, I just
don't want to They would rather not vote than I

(29:27):
voted for her. Yeah. One of the wildest things I
read in the aftermath of the election was about a
women for Trump group that arose that was started the
day after the excess Hollywood tape came out because it
was I think the response of the media too, you know,

(29:51):
tell us how we were supposed to feel about him
saying those things really angered people who have really internalized
values of how how women should think of their own
place in uh in society? Was that an AstroTurf group

(30:12):
though it wasn't. It wasn't like the women for Kavanaugh
that showed up that was like told like it was
mostly guys. Yeah. I know this was in the aftermath
in a small town in Colorado, and then you know
it kind of spread from there. But this was an
article that was written in the New York or like
a month after it was just like, wait, how did
he when? Wait? Women? Yeah? Very strange. Yeah. I I

(30:40):
had some friends who were very very intelligent after that
Access Hollywood video came out kind of be like, well,
you know they were in the locker room. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
no stop. But yeah, that's that keeps me up at
night sometimes thinking about that. Um, I guess you have
to like, would you want to live in that locker

(31:02):
room forever? Right? What if you had to live in
that locker room? Right? Is that a world you want? Okay?
Then I think we can't let that rock. There's something
else I wanted to touch on about the two thousand
and eight election and this liability problem, that's what the
press called it, that Hillary Clinton had. Um even Obama said,
you're likable enough, Hillary. Um. So just just to illustrate

(31:27):
that this has been going on for so long and
that I do feel we haven't made that much progress
on it. In then Democratic candidate for mayor of New York,
Christine chris Quinn, spoke about this. She said, there was
a conscious decision I needed to not lean into the
woman's stuff. I needed to try to be less who
I was, less aggressive, less loud, less in people's faces.

(31:48):
People said I was inauthentic. By then I was. I
was walking around trying to be some different version of
the actual me. And I remember hearing that with Hillary
Clinton too, of just making the decision to not lean
into like women's stuff as an issues, but also just yeah,
being feminine in any way. Yeah, And there's like just

(32:11):
such this weird sliding scale of authenticity that I don't
know how it's actually applied, you know, where you look
at someone who if being feminine is too authentic, it's
fine yet if when it's also the authenticity thing is
used to defend people's like really close minded or ignorant
viewpoints that are set out loud. It's like that's the

(32:33):
authenticity defense. But also this I don't know this idea.
It's it sort of goes back to sort of the
same thing that people couldn't quite put their finger on
with Hillary. It's like, I don't know the same thing.
Or it's like, oh, she's too much of a politician something,
which is the other thing, And I'm like, what does
that mean, like, has substantive experience with foreign policy, like

(32:55):
the politician? Is that not good? But I think it's
sort of speaking to the like I guess they feel
like they're not actually reading Hillary as being conditioned to
try and sort of uh make herself as sort of
broadly appealing as possible by you know, repressing certain elements
of her personality. Um yet yeah, I don't know, I'm

(33:17):
rather than just looking at that or they they see
that as gamesmanship rather than someone trying to adapt to
the set of rules that has been drilled into them.
And then you kind of see the flip side of
this coin with uh where we're actually recording this the
day that betto Rourke announced that he was running, and

(33:39):
he did it in a video where um, he he
was talking and gesticulating wildly in a way that seemed unnatural,
but that's okay. But then he had his wife next
to him, just being silent, And I don't know, like,
in a in a world that where we're coming of

(34:00):
the two thousand sixteen election, that seemed like a particularly
pointed of sort of shot construction. To have a silent
woman next to him who just kind of smiled and
nodded who but who never said a word. It just
seemed somewhat loaded. I don't know if intentionally or not,

(34:21):
or like it just signals it's like, hey, he's a
he's a dude with a wife. Yeah, you can trust him,
right right. But I do wonder, like, we know he
has a wife, we know a lot of politicians have
significant others, But having her sit there silently in the shot,
I wonder if his handlers or the people behind his

(34:43):
campaign are thinking, Okay, this is us announcing don't worry, guys,
we got this. It's we're back to just dudes. Okay,
just some dudes here, and we're going to keep the
women silent. But I think when I we look at
most political ads, people aren't even thinking and what that
deep into it too, and it's just like, oh, yeah,

(35:03):
we inadvertently made it kind of awkward. Yeah, I am
here analyzing a YouTube video like it is. You know,
was bruder fuzzled over like a shot in a as
Kubrick movie. But still, yeah, I do that all the time.
What I do all the time too. Um, I agree,

(35:25):
there is something weird about that whole thing, especially since
most of our politicians, particularly most of our politicians that
do public apologies usually for something sexual nature, and there's
always they always have their wife in the background, and
there's that whole song and dance. Feels very strange to me,

(35:49):
like you're making her come out here and kind of sanction. Yes,
I know he did this thing, and I'm sticking by him.
It's just strange. Yeah, it's the top thing of the
same thing of just like you see if a woman,
the woman is there, therefore he's okay what he did.
Just like in what was that the Michael Cohen hearing,

(36:11):
when I think it was Tom Cotton or somebody brought
out a black cabinet member or employee of the Trump
and was just like, and you see this black woman
shows the president is not racist. You may leave do
not say anything. Your mere physical presence is an indicator
of a point I'm trying to make. You have fulfilled
your purpose as a shield. Yeah, yeah, that was gross.

(36:35):
Um yeah, it was just cringe e. And I think, yeah,
that's when you see that too. It's just sort of
the well, we've got to have the wife there to
show like, Okay, so she's if she can, if she
can forgive, then maybe the country can. Right right now,
speaking of the country, do you think because America has
never had a head of state who is a woman,

(36:57):
but most other countries have, Um, do you think there
is something specific to America about this insecurity and this
very specific sort of fear of powerful women? And if so,
what what is it about the American character that that
makes us so terrified of powerful women. That's that's a

(37:22):
very interesting question. And the thing that my mind immediately
went to you. And this is probably such kind of
a nerdy stretch. Um, but I once did a paper
on why is it that people are so afraid of
socialism in the United States? And one of the reasons
that I found a lot in my research is that

(37:46):
the United States has never been invaded on our like home,
on our continental US has never been invaded, and having
that that experience brings people together that normally wouldn't come together,
and it makes them see each other in kind of
similar circumstances. So like during London and blitzgreed, you could

(38:07):
average people and poor people all trying to survive in
in the tunnels. Um. And so this is such a stretch,
but I think that there's something about in the United
States we reward aggression and violence. Um. Violence in other
countries that I've been to is like not as normal

(38:29):
in their media, Like you're much likelier to see sex
and drugs, which in the United States is kind of taboo,
but violence. Um. I saw inglorious bastards in Europe and
the people I saw it with from Europe were shocked.
And like, these are generalizations, but I think there is
something about aggression and rewarding aggression. I'd have to think

(38:55):
I would have to think more about it, but I
think just the preference of masculine and traits. Yeah, yeah,
and yeah, and we've also had a we've been pretty
good at manufacturing what by definition, toxic masculinity, like through
film and TV and things like that too, where we're
just kind of like we always thinking the diet we're

(39:17):
fed here, especially through our own films and stuff. I
kind of informed that idea too. Yeah, but we you
know a lot of foreign countries import our culture. Uh,
they still find find a way to elect heads of
state who are women. But that that answer of um,

(39:39):
you know, never having been invaded, never been invaded, the
sequel to never been kissed, is I think a really
good I don't know, you're like, I need to think
about it more. But that's that is a very thoughtful,
very interesting answer. I like that a lot, thank you.
But the South, in a way, it has been invaded,

(40:01):
so south, I just need to let the South lead,
am I right? Guess there wasn't there? There was a
list though the Washington Post that said, like, you know
what the most sexist and like most sexist places are
in America, It's mostly concentrated south of the Mason Dixon.
Our theory about the window out the window, definitely, I

(40:24):
believe media has a I'm always like the media as
a huge role. I'm sure that because we do are
we have for a while lad the world in like Hollywood,
um and exporting our media. I think that that is
certainly at play. Yeah, yeah, and we were and we

(40:44):
were built on a Puritan society and so there are
those values still echoing around. And I think also just
like you know, manifest destiny is all about domination and dominance,
and you know, the whole country is built off this
idea is like we're gonna take what. I'm like, this

(41:05):
whole country is built on this sort of sentiment of
like we will take whatever we want to kick whoever
it is off because we deserve it. And it's just
that's this. It's like this idea of dominance is just
constantly so I mean a lot of histories, but especially
when you think of the displacement of like indigenous people
and slavery and things like that, dominance is just such

(41:25):
a huge part of it, right, And it's sort of
a lie the you know, the people who were here
died off from a plague and right, But but that
lie is important to our self identity, like telling ourselves
that we dominated and that's why we're here, as opposed
to I think you're right. You know, countries in Europe,

(41:47):
a lot of them the culture lasts because of things
like tradition, and so like tradition is valuable to them
and things they've done for years that their parents did,
Like that's more important to and then violence, right, And
if if you think about the time after World War
Two where this is like American exceptionalism is really in

(42:11):
full swing and there's all of this disposable income, and
this is when there's the time of like the stay
at home housewife and that that's what women did and
men went out and made money, um, And it was
this kind of prosperous time. And right now all of
the nostalgia, the very toxic and my opinion, nostalgia for
like make America great again. What they're remembering is that.

(42:33):
But in Europe it was war torn and they were
rebuilding and depending on the United States for for money.
I think if we're looking at the generations now that
we're hearing so loudly um with this vitriol, it's just
very different. And that's not to say there's not problems
in Europe at all, but just like trying to think

(42:55):
of why the United States is behind in this issue,
I think that that could be part of it as well. Yeah,
And I guess also to your point of like not
being invaded, right, that's that's a level of vulnerability that
as a country we're not experiencing and we don't acknowledge
because it's allowed us to think we're invulnerable in a way.

(43:16):
So then to look at you know, just masculine as
being invulnerable or invincible and these things contributes that because
I even think, you know, my mom, she's from Japan
and she was born right after the A bombs went off,
and everyone from all my family members who grew up there,
the way they talked about as they were tremendously vulnerable,
and there was this like idea looking at everyone of

(43:38):
like we're picking up the pieces in an ash pile
and trying to create some normalcy again. But there's this
idea that everyone, you know, like everyone acknowledges. Yes, we
don't have we don't have the luxury of thinking everything
is fine or going to be okay because we just
went through something that shows that we are very much
vulnerable and have something too, you know, rebuild around. And

(44:01):
I wonder if that also helps connect people too, because
there's more of a like we're truly in this together.
We can see that each others equals because we're all
kind of starting from the same place. Yeah, and I
I wonder too if it has to do with how
we elect people versus how other countries elect people, because
I know a lot of times the way that a

(44:23):
woman got the like top position in the country is
her party elected her, like parliament elected her, whatever party
she's in in parliament, and then if there's a change
of power, then she gets the top job. So it's
kind of yeah, so I bet that that also is

(44:43):
something that's going on. So it's like twenty different things. Yeah, yeah, complex.
Oh no, I'm looking for something that will fit on
one note card, will work on it. It's the one
bullet point is it's complicated, right. There was a study

(45:06):
out of the Harvard Kennedy School of Women in Public
Policy program that found that when participants saw men power seeking,
they were essentially like good for him, and they attributed
all these positive traits to him, like confidence, being assertive.
But when they saw women being assertive, the participants had
a different reaction. They quote experienced feelings of moral outrage
like contempt, anger or discussed towards these women and saw

(45:30):
them as less supportive or caring. Wow, moral outrage, oral
outrage discussed. Yeah, look at I have absolutely seen that
though I have seen that in the way people respond
to Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton just being like yeah,

(45:51):
you know, I think it's disgusting, or even just on Twitter.
Yeah yeah, someone who's not even a celebrity. Right, Oh
my gosh, just at every right. Yeah, weren't they like
my mom? Although when I think about my mom, she
was very aggressive, So I'm like, nope, I enjoy those trains. Yeah,

(46:13):
come on, yeah, but yeah, the idea the moral outrage
is like the I don't I can't understand the morality
of being assertive or honoring your desires and trying to
go after them. Yeah. I think that what you said
earlier about the puritanical roots, I think has something to
do with that. Um. And this isn't to disparage, but

(46:36):
you know, in the Bible, it's pretty like women you
do this thing, well, men go do all the other
important stuff. You stay at home. If yeah, if Eve
would have just listened you not talked to that freaky snake,
we wouldn't all be sinners exactly. That is somewhat uh

(46:56):
particular to the Judeo Christian Bible, and the Koran is
still has some messed up stuff in there about women.
But you also noticed that Muslim majority Muslim countries have
a better record when it comes to women running being
heads of state, So so something to consider. Another thing,

(47:20):
yet another thing. Yes, I was looking into this, this
whole likability factor when it comes to your presidential candidates,
and a lot of researchers say Ronald Reagan was one
of the first instances that demonstrated the power of likability
in our politics because he won by a landslide even
though he wasn't really qualified in nineteen eighty Right, I

(47:42):
was a cowboy, Yeah, yeah, very masculine thing to be right, Yeah, yeah,
does John Wayne without just just with a little bit
less out there racism. And then when George and then

(48:02):
when Georgia H. W. Bush came along, even though his
background was c I A you know, uh, probably lots
of lots of dark things in his history, dark violent actions,
the media just had it in their head that he
was a whimp, teasing him, calling him a whimp. And he, uh,

(48:24):
some would argue, went to various wars and invaded Panama
because of the media teasing him as for being a whimp,
because it was being masculine and you're not a cowboy,
why are you all quiet over their glasses, right exactly.
Whim whim is such a playground and soul every time

(48:45):
I heard it kind of cracks me up. Whimp. But
the question of women in public being likable goes way back.
Wait wait wait, wait, way back. Um. But first we
have one more quick break for word from our sponsor.

(49:10):
We're back, Thank you sponsor. The first woman elected to
US Congress in nineteen seventeen, Jeanette Rankin, was applauded in
the press for being gentle and feminine likable. Yeah, um,
likability issues or as old as the suffage movement. That's
according to Don Teele, who is a political scientist a

(49:31):
political science professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Um, and
words like shrill and ugly did start to be used
more when first wave feminism was rising up. Yeah, I
think shrill is a good one to just kind of
stow away in your brain, as any time you hear that,
you can a person has seated their reasonable argument. Right.

(49:55):
I think likable is another one, But shrill is sort
of a a should set off alarm bells as Okay,
this person is talking about something that they don't realize
they're talking about. But you're talking about their own and
built of biases on gender and sex. Yeah, when Donald

(50:16):
Trump used he used shrill and nasty woman, I was
kind of shocked. It was like so outright that I
almost couldn't believe it. But that's just his emo. He
does that with homophobia, he does it with a racism. Ah.
But yeah, he definitely used those two words that I
was taken aback. Doesn't he know we're a pro Trump podcast,

(50:41):
The Daily, So my apologies, my apologies to let people
think that, um, and I did want to bring up
you can see this through the lens of race as well,
like going back to Sir Williams, like the angry black woman,
the spicy latina, which again these are things that are
like to shut women down when you say that, and

(51:06):
the angry black woman, it's like there's just again, we
don't like people sticking up for yourself. Is angry or spicy? Yeah,
we prefer mild, right, we prefer smild to spice it.
We don't want fuego sauce. Um. There's another study I
found in researching this that I wanted to bring up.

(51:28):
It was it was from this Glamour article I was
reading and It had two versions of a negative political ad.
One was narrated by a male candidate and one by
a female candidate. Both versions use the same words, are
at the same decibel volume, and yet listeners were more
likely to describe the version with a woman's voice as louder,
more negative, and less likable. Yep, yep. We've done that

(51:51):
experiment in our office once with two videos, same video,
one male host, one with a female host. All of
the comments on the one hosted by the man, we're
great job, very informative. All the comments on the one, well,
not all, but most of them were about her appearance.
They didn't think she was competent, She didn't know what
she was talking about. Wow, what happened when people realized

(52:14):
they were part of an experiment? I don't know that
we ever announced it. I did print out some of
my favorite mean comments and I made a collage of them,
and I'm hoping to do like a modern art piece
with it and invite all those commentators to the view
of the modern art piece and then beat them up

(52:35):
one by one. I don't know what it would be
like though, when people then are confronted with that, Because
a lot of these people I'm sure they would out
out like outwardly be like, oh I'm you know, I'm
an ally r something. Then let these kind of weird
comments set in, and then you say, oh guess what, friend,
Uh look at your response to these two things are
like very different. What then how that would get someone's

(52:57):
wheels trying to be like, oh, well, you know, I
that's just I don't know. I just felt more inclined
to respond to that. I also felt that about the man,
but you know what I mean, like someone would try
and backpedal from that. It's interesting because yeah, sometimes when
you confront somebody about, you know, a mean comment or
an ignorant comment, they'll just be uh, you know, they'll

(53:18):
be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I had
no idea. And other times they'll just double down or
they're just really angry and they again they want to
feel like they're in control by goading someone to responding
and then e D solved. Is this something the both
of you have some experience with. Yeah, I'm it's I

(53:39):
you know, I'm always constantly looking for remedies for is
that what you were? Sorry? I was at the question,
Oh wow, okay, then I was then he wasn't talking.
I'm fine, I'm fine, actually sure, Oh yeah, I know,
I believe it. No, I mean I think you know,

(53:59):
they're they're actually our moments. Even on our show, I
noticed where if women had interesting takes on science that
were maybe you know, outside of the mainstream. Even you know,
our show is a comedy show where people might say
something about something science adjacent, adjacent, people really come out
in the comments to be like, I really didn't like that,
that was this this this men and women. Yet when

(54:22):
a lot of men come on and say just absurd stuff,
and sometimes there they believe what they say, you know,
everyone there's a degree of of humor to what everyone's saying.
But again, we see I've I've definitely noticed that where
people they definitely have the energy you sort of call,
uh like a woman's commentary out yep. Yeah. Yeah. And

(54:45):
we're a show that is, you know, on its face
not We're we absolutely try and make it a point
to not dabble in any kind of toxic masculinity and
be is like even handed with what our takes are.
But it's still I think there's still just sort of
that like there's an inbuilt sort of misogyny, internalized misogyny
that creeps up. Yeah. I think the response sometimes is

(55:05):
why didn't you stop her? Why didn't get why didn't
you guys down? And it's like, you know, that's them
internalizing like how this is supposed to go basically that
you have to swat it down, right, And I'm like, well, no,
that's that's what they wanted to say. I didn't. I
never said I agreed with it, but I'm you know,
the shows for people to express themselves, not enough interrupting, right,

(55:31):
you should have told her to smile more. Yeah, we
can hear that through audio. Um. I do think it's
a I have personally witnessed the same thing where it's
it seems to be worse in fields like science. Yeah, yeah,
which is interesting. But going back to like politics and
lik ability. According to the Barbara Lee Family Foundation, and

(55:55):
this is the foundation that studies the representation of women
in politics, they found in twenty tend, the most significant
predictor when it came to the possibility for a successful
candidacy for a woman was likability. And that is a
big deal because it directly impacts representation and who gets
a seat at the table and on top of that,

(56:17):
Other than being quiet and not threatening long accepted social norms,
what is liability? Some people said it was being honest, um,
looking the part, which, okay, that's a big can of
worms problem solver. Like, but I don't just vague terms

(56:38):
that mean good. I like you mean integrity, nah. Likability Okay,
you mean someone who is willing to sort of think
out an issue and to find a solution. Nah, likability,
problem solver, whatever that is. I feel like looking the

(56:58):
part would be being a man, right, yeah for real? Yeah.
Vermont's first female and first Jewish governor, Madeline Cunan wrote
about this um and she wrote, if you're tough enough
to be commander in chief, you're not likable. You lose
some of your femininity. So women have to walk a
very fine line to be both, and usually they don't

(57:18):
wear well over time. I would agree that's kind of
like the cool girl thing where you can do it
for a little bit but it wears off. Yeah, I'd
imagine that would be incredibly exhausting to have to be
responding to criticism from idiots who you know are making

(57:39):
points that like are are incorrect, and you are having
to do like that that's the thing with Yeah, like
Elizabeth Warren, if she does drink a beer and it
doesn't seem authentic, maybe it's not authentic because she feels
a little off kilter because she's having to react to
your stupid criticism all the time. Um, yeah, I don't know,

(58:03):
it's it. I I think that it must be just
this can't be very healthy for you know, a person's
mental health to have to deal with this sort of Yes, yeah,
I agree, And I think it's it's just a lot
to ask and we're asking it if someone who, in

(58:24):
theory is going to be like in charge of our
country and one of the most powerful people in the world,
and we're basing it on I. I don't know. I
guess I like her, it doesn't write I don't. I
don't believe she really liked that beer. Um so I
was like, yeah, wait, she was a Special Forces pilot, okay,
but she have grandma glasses, right, I don't know. I

(58:47):
can can't let that stand. Look, the part that's it
like that you mentioned the cool girl thing. That reminds
me of the monologue from Gone Girl, which is one
of my monalogs. Every Where she talks about you know,
having to pretend to be something you're not, and eventually
you're going to start murdering people, as that movie taught us. Right, Yeah,

(59:10):
that's the eventual outcome. So we should be very concerned
about this whole thing as it turns out. That's right
for all of you. Oh I would watch that horror
movie in a heartbeat. Oh yeah, I would watch that
if it was an action movie, if it was just
like Rambo, just her going through and getting her revenge.

(59:30):
I want to see that now in a mex suit, maybe,
like just to make it like extra efficient. Yeah, somebody listening,
please make that. I mean, yeah, who do we know
who she's represented by? Maybe we can inspect script get
that to her. I think I would love to see
her act in it, Yeah, especially cathartic. Yes, it needs

(59:53):
to be her. Yeah, and I think her acting won't
be very good, and I'm very excited about that. I
think it's going to be kind of like still, did
you know you know what? She won't have to say
a thing, right, Yeah, she's omnipotent. She doesn't even need
to use words. She just pulls up vaporizes Trump with
her like with her blinks. It'll be the first special

(01:00:14):
effects like green screen thing where we're actually showing her
what the audience is seeing, so we can capture her
performance as she witnesses just Donald Trump blown to pieces.
This sounds very cathartic for all of us. Yeah, I know,
I'm getting way too into this. I'm like, okay, so

(01:00:34):
here's how we do it, guys. It's gonna be claymation
stop motion, okay. Or every time she smiles it unleashes
this energy burst because like, you should smile more. And
it's like, no, oh, I think this is an Oscar winner.
This is something we got an animated We got an
animated short at the very least anyone is good at
flash animation. I am so into this, so into this

(01:01:00):
called hell hath no fury? Wow, or that would be
the tagline I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.
It would be called He'll hath no fury. Yeah, he's
not the best in the biz for nothing, folks. This
is so good. I mean, it's coming up with ideas
that will never be made. Baby, this whole episode is,

(01:01:21):
it's been great. But that alone, Oh, I'm so glad
we got that out of it. We just cut it
down to this pitch. I love it, Jack and Miles,
he'll hath no fury. Well, thanks so much for joining us.
I love it, I love it. Um. I did want

(01:01:42):
to add on here that likability politics does exist for
both men and women. But the Foundation's research, the Foundation
I was talking about earlier, I found the same thing
that other studies have found, that female candidates have to
be viewed as both likable and qualified, but for men,
you just have to be seen as qualified. Likability is
a plus, but it's optional, right right, And yeah, one

(01:02:05):
thing we um have kind of been. I think it's obvious,
but politics is not the only arena where this problem exists, right, Yeah,
it's pretty much everywhere. We see it with celebrities. I
love when a male celebrity says he's a feminist and
everyone's like, oh, he's the bass, and a female celebrity
says it and they're like, oh, she's not. Did you
see those outfits she was wearing? Yeah? Right, Oh, feminists

(01:02:27):
can't dress how they want to know. No, No, that's ridiculous.
That's my favorite argument I am argumenting. Oh, well, I
don't know if feminist dressed like that. I'm sorry, what
is your idea of right exactly, everybody becomes a fashion
critic all of a sudden, these guys who like shop
at bass Bro great store by the way, sharing all

(01:02:53):
my fashion takes from the guy in the camo under
our as you should, as you should. The article I
found that called for employees to submit employee reviews, and
through analyzing these reviews, the article's author, who's the CEO
Kieren Schneider, found that of the almost two reviews submitted,

(01:03:13):
fifty eight point nine percent of the male employee reviews
came with critical feedback. For women, that number was eighty
seven point nine. Two out of the three critical reviews
for me employees criticized tone, but seventy one of the
critical reviews for female employees did. That massive number is incredible.

(01:03:36):
Zone is code for I don't want to feel emasculated,
right right, It's just but I don't know, it's again,
I mean, it's a lot of things that like, when
you actually read statistics, it's so much uh, I don't know,
it really brings it more to the surface. I mean,
not that I was like ignorant of these kinds of things,

(01:03:58):
but when you actually these examples are give me for
a ride. I'm just thinking how infuriating that must be
for I mean, these are people talking about their boss,
so there's so many like these are the employees just
being like her tone is kind of like she needs
to work on her tone. It's just like, what are

(01:04:20):
you talking about? My boss is all like, yo, can
you do this? And I was like, whoa your tone? Right?
The boss of me? Boss? Who've been so bossy? Yeah,
I'm you're so bored in it, but like, come on
doing some grace. Bossy Pants, by the way, one of
the great books. That's twenty years of my opinion. Yeah,

(01:04:46):
that was a pro laugh every other sentence, and I
did I wanna. I don't want to go super dark,
but I do think that we should say here at
the darkest inclusion, this pressure for women to be likable
is dangerous. Maybe you didn't listen to your instincts that

(01:05:06):
something is oft in a situation because you didn't want
to be unlikable. Maybe you don't speak out, or you
don't leave when you want to because you don't want
to be unlikable. I can say personally, I have trouble
physically raising my voice because I've been so conditioned that
was not something women did, and that is dangerous, like,
especially combined with the fear of violence resulting from rejection, um,
de escalation, Women often due to let men down easy. Um.

(01:05:30):
So I just want to put that grim kind of
pin in here. It's not that's a very important and
good point. Yeah, and again, look, ladies, please just take
the wheel. Not going well at all. Yeah, I was
born into this, but it please just take the wheel. Uh.

(01:05:54):
Do you guys have any like I try to end
on a positive note. I do think that we're talking
about it. It is getting better. Um. Is there anything
positive that that you can think of to to ender
this on? Well, I think we just fixed it. That's one. Yeah,
pat ourselves on the back for sure. Uh. You mean

(01:06:17):
just good and and sort of what I see in
the world today, or just something I really like, you know,
I'll take either. No. I mean, the one thing that's
a little bit just uh that makes me feel somewhat
optimistic is just like with I mean, it's it's a
dark thing that has a light side too. Just sort
of all of the criticism of ilhan omar Uh coming

(01:06:37):
out in the wild double standard that's being applied in
her case, that there at least there is pushback to
a degree that I've not seen before from other politicians
and the media, because I feel like years ago stories
like that would just be like, Yep, that's it. She
said something anti semitic and that's that. And now they're like,

(01:06:58):
at least some they'll there'll be some sort of there.
There's a little more analysis now around well are we
are wait? Are we the bad people here that we're
only analyzing it one way? Uh? And I there there's
just I don't know, there's some there's a slow, slow march.
But yeah, but that's one thing that I was like,

(01:07:18):
oh wow, Like years ago, I felt like the story
just would have ended there. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it.
I'll take it. And then that's like it's still dark.
Even though it's a huge you know, it's not equal.
There's still I think more women protagonists and movies today

(01:07:43):
than ten years ago, which I guess is moving lightly
in the right d Captain Marvel had like the biggest,
one of the biggest Tuesdays ever for a Disney film,
like a Tuesday. I do think that development. The more
women get to do things in culture and in power,

(01:08:04):
the more it will become it will become undeniable that
they're just as good or better suited for these positions.
And I think I think if we were living through
the Hillary Clinton presidency right now, we'd be talking about
our pants suit or or we'd be like, wow, why

(01:08:27):
did it take us this long to elect a woman president? Probably,
And also even like with film though too, you look
at like clearly like we've hit peak ideas with like
male dominated film industry, and now like with like female
directors and writers are like making the best stuff now,
and it's like, yeah, right, right, just let's let's let's

(01:08:49):
include everyone and we'll actually see some some good things happen. Yeah,
And I think that it's I'm a big believer if
you if you see it, you can be it. So
now that we have more female politicians, the number is
still very small, but we do have more, and they're
kind of out in the public, and I think I
hope that younger girls see that and think to themselves,

(01:09:11):
I can do that too. Are they see these female
directors or these female lead action movies or whatever movies
they might be, and think I can do that too,
And then the number will just grow. That's my my hope. Yeah,
And I think busting up gender norms and getting away
from women have to be this way and men have

(01:09:31):
to be that way super important. Yeah, agreed. Yes, I'll
just be a little more flexible. Yeah, you know, and
just I mean, really, the bottom line is how willing
are we to accept new things? Right? You know? And
it's it's fairly it's I think it's easy. Nothing's gonna
harm you. Well, I don't know. I don't know. These

(01:09:54):
scary scary women in there there. Yeah, these testicular bill
of rights come and out. Now, believe that that's that's
what happened. Permission I have to get permission for a vasectomy.
That's right, that's right. I like to see you try that.
Did you see that thing from Buffalo Wild Wings about
the vasectomy chair? You know, this is a real tangent,

(01:10:16):
but look it up after after this, I just can't
recommend it enough. I do. Before we like the final note,
before we close out, I do want to say, there
is like no excuse for being a jerk. That's not
necessarily what we're talking about when we say like ability,
but different things. Right, You're right, and I I want

(01:10:37):
to thank you both so much for for coming on
the show and having this conversation. It's been super fun. Yeah,
this has been so fun. Yea, anytime, anytime, and I
will come back on your show anytime, preferably when there's
a trailer that I want and we all know it'll
it'll will arrange, it will arrange it. Just say what

(01:10:58):
film and we'll make it in l A. And that's
how we do stuff. I knew. I knew Living in
l A gave you that power. So I'm glad you
finally confirmed it for me. It's kind of like how
people think it is exactly. I can just hold on
one second. Hello operator Hollywood. Please, Wow, We're hero trailer

(01:11:21):
three months from today. Okay, so that's done. Leonardo DiCaprio
is actually in the booth right now. He's in madineering
this podcast. He's like ghost podcasting. Yeah, our engineer. I
should have known. Where can the good listeners find you? Both?
You can find us every weekday on the podcast The

(01:11:44):
Daily Zeitgeist, also through How Stuff Works Slash, the I
Heart Radio podcast network, where we catch you up on
things that are happening in the news cycle and kind
of dig deep into America's shared consciousness. You can find
me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien. I'm on Twitter

(01:12:06):
and Instagram at Miles of Gray g R A Y yeah,
it's a go. Go check them out, listeners, and thanks
again to both of you for being on. Oh is
our pleasure? Oh yeah, so fun? And if you would
like to find us listeners, you can. Our email is
mom Stuff at staff works dot com and you can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on

(01:12:27):
Instagram at stuff I Never told you. Thanks as always
to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks you for listening