Book Club: Ace, Part 2

For part two of our book club on Ace by Angela Chen, we get into topics like consent, negotiation, representation, and the many ways asexuality can look.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
I Never told you production of I High Radio. So
we are back, okay, Part two of our book club
on Angela Chin's book Ace, What a Sexuality Reveals about desire, society,

(00:27):
and the meaning of sex, which came out pretty recently,
came out in twenty twenty, and we just got to
talking and chatting because we there's a lot of stuff
to cover, and so yes, this is a two parter. Yes,
and as it says in our title, there's a lot
of implications that go beyond just being Ace. But what
this reveals for all of society, that's a lot. It is.
It is a lot, it's a lot to untangle. If

(00:48):
you haven't listened to part one yet, I think you'll
be fine to start with this one. But we cover
a lot of ground in that one as well, so
go back and check it out. For this one, we're
really we're really going to hit the ground running because
this was something that really stood out to me. We
ended part one talking about this is complicated, convoluted mess

(01:09):
around women and sex when it comes to feminism and
being liberated and being empowered, and how really messy that
can get And this next section really relates to that,
which is this whole idea that Chen goes into that
being a sexual, especially a woman being a sexual is
a whole made up idea and it was made up

(01:30):
by misogynistic men to sexually repress women, which is interesting
given the are very stereotypical and harmful understanding that men
always want sex, and I mean, I guess the idea
would be you only have sex with them that one man, right,
I don't know, but okay, here is a quote. Being

(01:53):
asexual means you can't have passion. He'd say, if you
don't have passion, you can't write. Therefore, if you don't
have sex, you can't be a writer. Identifying as ace
means you're brainwashed by the patriarchy and you need to
work harder to fight that. Otherwise you can't be a
feminist and you certainly can't be an artist. So this
was a story. Chan interviews a lot of people for

(02:14):
this book, and this was a story someone told her
about their experience meeting an older male writer and this
person wanted to be a writer as well, and his
reaction to their insistence that they were asexual and that
they wanted an asexual character in the books that they

(02:34):
were writing. Yeah, can I say the section that I
almost through everything because immediately I'm like, he's grooming Oh
my god, he's grooming her and gaslighting her. What the
But also can we also put in that this dude
was a friend of her father's. Yeah, that connected her
to get a mentor so she can write, So he
was doing something nice the father. This dude who was

(02:55):
the friend of the father had a wife, had you know, children,
and by the way, she was a young teenager and
he was saying these things to her because he was
grooming her. Super gross, super gross. That was a whole
different conversation. I was like, because at the very beginning
when you hear the story of her talking about him
being like, well, I'll say, oh no, this is about

(03:15):
to go real bad. And it did, but it didn't
go real bad. But I'm just saying like, I'm like,
you know what this is leading to? We know right well,
And then when this person turned down his advances, he
was like, Okay, that's it. I'm not helping you anymore.
And everything you've ever written as trash and go away right,
real real class act. But the idea here being yeah,

(03:38):
sex with him would liberate you that he wanted to
have sex with this young person. And then around in
that section as well, there was this idea of the
pressure of the one night stand and that it can
be very liberating and how a not small amount of

(04:00):
sexual people try something like that because they think, oh,
if i'd just do it, then maybe I can prove
to myself that I do want sex. And I am,
you know, in my mind empowered or liberated because that
has gotten all mixed up with sex. And I did
the same thing, and I remember I was it was
like jumping off a cliffers and I'm so scared, and

(04:21):
I it was just like, you have to just do it,
just do I want to be the type of person
that can do this and that will enjoy it. And
we like got out, we were, you know, almost all
of our clothes and then I just freaked out. I
was like, I can't do this and ran and left
the room. And I never saw that guy. So, yeah, no,

(04:42):
I had a similar experience, except I did have sex.
I was super drunk, and it wasn't because I wanted
to get it over with. It was I was I
wanted because I was like twenty six, twenty four I
was older and so and I had leaned so hard
into being a virgin because you know, Jesus, and then realizing, wait,
what is happening. I don't know if I truly understand

(05:03):
any of this. And I did have a lot of
sexual desires, being very sexualized at a really young age.
I've always been sexual and that's kind of that connotation,
and we've not talked about it about those who have
been sexually abused being hyper sexualized throughout and I was
super high sexualized. But because again trauma and all of that,

(05:25):
you know, and then religion, and honestly, I wouldn't say
I'm not saying anything negative and that it kept me safe.
I think there's a lot of things that could have
gone through a lot of heartbreak and or really really
dangerous situations. Don't get me wrong, bad things still happen
to me, even in those moments, and I did some
quoty fingershell in those moments. But at twenty fourteen five,
I'm like, I really do want to have sex. This

(05:46):
is something that I fantasized, and I like being touched
and all these things. I'm also really afraid of relationships
in general, because again, sex and romance is not something
that's a thing to me at that point in time,
because I'm so overly traumatized and I've used religion to
heal or cover that band you know, cover it up
with that religion band aid, which did not do anything

(06:06):
except for excuses for me specifically, And so I went
through that like, oh, I'm just I'm just gonna do it.
Poor dude, It's all I have to learn about that,
because it was sad, short, and I was like, what
is this not at all what I'd hoped for? Because
again it doesn't meet expectations. You're quite you know, misled

(06:29):
by me and you know, me thinking I'm gonna be
swept off my feet and it's gonna be the best experience. Yeah,
I was just talking to a girlfriend about this. I've
said about him than I do me. I will say
that in a weird context, like, Okay, he really was trying.

(06:52):
He was trying to make it special even though I'd
never met him before and that was our first date.
It was a one I said. I stopped talking to
him immediately after. Yeah, oh oh man, yeah yeah, yeah.
That myth of the like perfect virgin sex is very damaging,
a lot of a lot of expectations that are way
too high and can never possibly be met, and that's

(07:13):
not good for either anybody right emotionally for us. Yeah,
the comedic versions, which is supposed to be all about laughing,
is the truer version forms for many of us. Who
has built this up and then you're just like I
guess too. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I've had a
few friends and like, nah, it was legit. Yeah, a

(07:33):
few friends who's like talking about how painful it was.
I was like, oh no, yeah, Well I think that
I think there's a space for it to be especially
if you're with someone that you trust and that you
feel something for. I think there's a space for it
to not be great sex, but for it to be
really sweet and awkward, if that makes sense, because you're
both in it. You're both in it together, right, and

(07:53):
if you can like kind of you know, be open about,
oh this is sort of awkward. I think there's something
like that can great, that could be a good story
to tell later. Yes, kind of all learning. So here's
another group. I am what sexuality scholar Lisa down And

(08:14):
calls sex critical aware of both women's personal agency and
the continuing inequalities of society. It is possible to encourage
others to experiment while trusting them. If they say sex
doesn't do anything for them, someone shouldn't be fitted either
because their sex acts are very kinky, are because their
number of partners is very low. It is cost for
celebration whenever anyone is to the best of their ability,
making their own choices free from pressure, and also working

(08:37):
to change the social and political structures that will let
everyone else have that same sexual freedom and freedom of
other kinds too, which I like, really, I mean, that's
just the level of just trusting that people know themselves
and accepting it and not trying to change people's minds.
And don't understand that level unless it's a therapeutic level. Yeah, yeah,

(09:01):
it is tricky, don't get me wrong. Or I've asked
these questions of myself of like, what if it's just
because I was raised in a religious environment and that's
why I don't like sex, Like I have these questions.
But ultimately, but if it still if that is your reason,
that's okay, that's true. So that's you know, like it's
kind of that's the same thing again. You and I

(09:22):
are talking about, especially when we talk about trauma, especially like, yeah,
there might be a reason you don't like sex, and
it's because trauma and it triggers. If it's not something
that you want, if that's not something I want, then
why are other people pushing us? Like if we feel
completely content and being where we are and understand that
some of these things make us uncomfortable because of ABC

(09:44):
and D, whether it's religious suppression or whether it's a
dramatic background, or whether it's because your body just don't
want it, right, then why not just let it be.
That's not something that it's not going to kill me
not to have sex. It's not going to kill them
not to have sex, like it doesn't. And if you
don't want children, that's on you as well, And that's fine.
If that's not the way you want to have children,
If you can't have children that way, it is what

(10:06):
it is. There's no reason for us to come in
and judge that, right, be empathetic to that and understanding
to that. Yes, right, I think that is one of
the most One of the things that really impacted me
the most reading this book is that very thing of like,
you know what, maybe you have been through some trauma,
and maybe there are a lot of reasons why you
don't want to have sex, But that doesn't mean you

(10:28):
can't identify as a sexual and that's fine. Like if
you if you don't want to have a sexually, you
don't have sex and that's fine. Right again, Yep, I
feel like that's just the whole little Let people be
if it's not causing you harm, let people be. Yeah. Yeah,
that's also kind of going back to what we were
saying about how it gets mixed up with feminism because

(10:48):
I feel like I should want sex. I feel like,
like I that's the thing, So letting go of that
aspect of not trying to make myself into something i'm
not and not beating myself up up for for not
wanting it. But yeah, yeah, I can get people feel
like they can just comment on all kinds of things

(11:10):
that they really shouldn't. Going back to my Mayo comparison,
my parents, my mother did not accept the fact that
I didn't like Mayo and try to sneak it in
to make me take that I would like Mayo, or
to be able to say, see, you're like, it's fine.
It was a weird flex, and I was like, why
are you doing this? I don't want it. I don't
like it. I've told you I don't like it. It

(11:32):
takes extra effort to put it on, then it does
not put it on. I don't understand. But she really
needed to know that she could change my mind about
a condiment that I still do not like to this day.
Y'all still don't like to this day. I have a
very big adversion of Mayo. Anyway, the Mayo podcast. It's

(11:54):
truemakes Mayo the podcast. So another quote from the books.
You know, it's a sociology book. You can't go out
because she's done all the research for us just talking
about it. If the phrase compulsory sexuality sounds familiar, that's
because it borrows from the poet Adrian, which is concept
of compulsory heterosexuality. In her nineteen eighty essay Compulsory Heterosexuality

(12:19):
and Lesbian Existence, Rich argued that heterosexuality is not merely
a sexual orientation that happens to be the orientation of
most people. Heterosexuality is a political institution that is taught
in condition and re enforce. Compulsory heterosexuality is not the
belief that most people are heterosexual. It is a set

(12:41):
of assumptions and behaviors that only heterosexual love is innate,
that women need men as a social and economic protectors
that support the idea of heterosexuality as the default and
only option. It makes people believe that heterosexuality is so
widespread only because it is quote not even though as

(13:01):
rich rights. The failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution
is like failing to admit that the economic system called
capitalism or the cast system of racism is maintained by
variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness.
Building off this idea, compulsory sexuality and ideas central to

(13:23):
a discourse is not the belief that most people want
sex and have sex and that sex can be pleasurable.
Compulsory sexuality is a set of assumptions and behaviors that
support the idea that every normal person is sexual, that
not wanting socially approved sex is unnatural and wrong, and
that people who don't care about sexuality are missing out

(13:46):
on an utterly necessary experience. Yeah, so this is kind
of going back to that assumption we've been talking about
this whole time, of kind of assumption that we see
pretty much everywhere in religion and media, in our law
that people want sex and they want heterosexual sex, and
that's anything that doesn't fit that is abnormal. And it's

(14:08):
something that a lot of people that Chin interviewed expressed.
And then there's like one in particular where she was
talking about the male asexual experience, and we do have
this idea that men and even gay men, because she
talked to people in that community as well, want a
lot of sex and if they don't, then something's wrong

(14:30):
with him. Until a lot of people who later figured
out that they were asexual, we're trying to fit into
that because they assumed it too. This sort of compulsory
heterosexuality idea of this is you were raised in that,
that's what you see, so you're trying to fit into
that as well, which I yeah, it was interesting. I'd

(14:53):
never heard of that concept before, but when I read it,
I was like, right, it does. And I get where
the ace feminists are like, I'm trying to I don't
want to bring down feminism and people are saying I
need to beat this and this and this. Because when
we talked about recently, the narrative that those randoms dudes
who were like, women don't like sex, women don't want sex,

(15:15):
women can't have an orgasm. That's only a man thing
that I can understand. Like that, that feels like you're
going into that narrative and you're like no, no, no,
but I am. I don't believe that that's just for
me personally. And unfortunately we have jerks like that who
uses this narrative as a way of saying, see, we
were right. All the other women are liars or hose

(15:36):
and said like, why why can't it just be? Like
can it don't be? Yeah, it's very very frustrating, And
I remember she changed in the book uses an example
of like a Fox News host guess that was like, oh,
that just means she doesn't want to have sex. I
guess I'm a sexual two or whatever. It'll like, Okay,

(15:58):
they could be and they just don't want to minute
It's true. It's yeah, yeah, it is so complicated, right
because again I might I'm all for it. I think people,
if that's what you want, then I want you to
have it, especially in a way that you're not judged.
And that's it does get tricky because I feel like

(16:19):
when I there's just so many political historically political ideas
and repression around women and sex and sexuality that when
it feels like everything I say as to come with
an asterisk, right, I mean again, it's kind of the
same when we talk about societal implications those who are

(16:40):
stay at home moms, women who want to stay at
home with their children, if they are feminists, I feel
like this is fighting against feminism and it doesn't have
to be. Again, this is all about the choice, Like
I want the right to say what I want point blank.
And if that means yes, staying at home and being
the wife home and being there for my husband or

(17:02):
my partner, great, But if it's also the choice of like, no,
I don't want to children, I don't want all of that.
I want to do my thing and go out and
do my thing, you know, have a job in the
career satisfying to me that narrative. Both of those should
be welcome because it is that choice as long as
one is not being forced into something and or being
disproportionately placed in the responsibility level. Again, we've talked about

(17:25):
this whole like during the pandemic, especially women's uptick of
like so much work that includes you know, maintaining the
home and teaching the kids while the husbands are still
doing their nine to five and doing their thing. And again,
obviously it's a head or norrative relationship, but we saw
that as a complaint. It was a thing. They're like,
what the hell is happening? How did we backtrack when

(17:47):
for so long we finally got to the point of equal.
But again, that's the whole other thing that we've talked
about many times. But the overall thing is having the
ability to make that choice for ourselves. Point blank. Yes, yeah,
that's a shiss. Oh okay, here's another quote I wanted

(18:19):
to do include. One of the more obvious examples of
compulsory sexuality is the fear of a sexless population. It
is a great irony that, despite handwringing over loose morals,
Americans are having less sex than before. According to the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, forty one percent of
high school students and twenty fifteen reported having had sex,
down from fifty four percent in nineteen ninety one. As

(18:42):
we are, American adults in the twenty tens they had
sex about nine fewer times per year than a quarter
century earlier. Such findings have prompted cover stories about sex recessions.
A recession, naturally is not a good thing, articles about
how the sex recession could lead to an economic recession,
and handwringing comments over how young people are doing it
wrong and are boring now. Economic worries could be to
blame or anxiety over unclear dating norms or the popularity

(19:05):
of Netflix and social media. Americans, according to some researchers,
have traded the pleasures of genital stimulation for the pleasure
of likes on social media and binge watching the Great
British Baking Show. In one Washington Post article about the
decline of sex, an eighteen year old is described as
sitting in front of quote, several screens simultaneously, a work project,
a YouTube clip, a video game for him. Abandoning this

(19:28):
setup for a date night or a one night stand
quote seems like a waste. Often implicit in this framing
are these questions, isn't it sad that people are having
less sex and that a one night stand now seems
like a waste? Isn't it pitiful to be playing video
games instead of feeling sexual pleasure? Shouldn't we be worried
that people don't care about sex anymore. For truly passionate people,

(19:48):
sex the pursuit the experience is always better than a movie,
a book, a game. The Loser of Today has three
computer screens and no sex drive. Yes, so I wanted
to put that in there for a lot of reasons.
But like, even reading that, I immediately was like, oh no,
what's wrong is it? Echo, I, as someone who doesn't

(20:08):
want sex, had that like initial people don't want sex anymore?
Oh no, why? I mean, I don't know. It's just
so ingrained. It's so ingrained that that is what you
should want, and that is better than pretty much anything else, right,

(20:32):
I guess Again, We've talked about this in several ways
because there's a lot of connotations of this type of
oh no, what's happening, whether it's oh no, traditional families
and traditional relationships are going out the windows, so that
means this is disrupting it. So we're more worried about
tradition more so than actual sex. And we can look
at but like qan on Hold where they are like

(20:54):
have children, we need more white children, which was on
the pledge, and how that the society and feminism and
social media essentially we're trying to kill off children. Yeah,
so you know, there's a whole bigger conversation to this, obviously,
and we've talked a little bit about it, but there's
definitely this weirdness of like, yeah, we should have isn't

(21:16):
that better? Just have leusch what Like, we're running out
of resources at this point. So yeah, it's just so
fascinating to me how we can be like, young people
don't have sex, that's bad, and then they were like,
oh my god, they're not having ducks. I wonder if
these are just boomers who feel guilty of their own
past and so they're like, oh, we need to keep
it up. You know that's possible. Also, I mean, I

(21:41):
don't want to I don't doubt that this is true.
I don't doubt that these members are true. But I
am curious in any kind of survey like that, there's
a part of me that's like, especially if you're asking
like high school students, I'm sure some people weren't being
entirely honest in either either direction, because you know, I

(22:02):
I myself, you know, would have hedged over what I
would have said because it seems like such a big
deal when you're at that age, right. Well, also you
have to remember, like again, social media does make a
big difference because a lot of the things that we
knew back then before social media. For me, I didn't
have a cell phone in high school yet and any
of that. We just all hung out, we called each other,

(22:24):
went down to uh walmart part of the lot, and
drove around not even played that is exactly. And then
there apparently because I wasn't one of the cool kids,
because I was just told this recently by an old
school friend. He was like, you know, remember that so
and so place where we would go party out in
the woods. And I was like, no, what, Like I existed,

(22:49):
That's exactly what happened. I was not cool. But they
were like, yeah, yes, so it and they called it
so and so farms or so and so land, and
you they would have bondfires and I wouldn't hang out
Friday and that's what they do. And everybody just showed up.
That's what they do. And now with the fact that
we have communications and able to like pick and choose
our groups instead of just going out and partying, now

(23:11):
that I didn't pick it choose obviously what they didn't
pick or choose me, but like it makes a difference,
and that's kind of like there was a lot of
stupid things that would happen on that level. And that's change,
of course, not completely because it stupid things still happen now,
it's just more public and now on videos, which could
also be the other reason. It's like, oh yeah, I

(23:31):
don't want to be caught on video. Yeah yeah, I
mean I know it's kind of a joke and it's
much more complicated than this, but there is some validity
to that, right of Like, now if you have a phone,
there's just a whole whole world's open to you, right
whereas before that if you didn't have maybe a TV

(23:54):
or you're like in my family, we had the one
TV and only the three channels or four channels, And yeah,
you're much more likely to go and hang out with people.
And that does lend itself to sex more than you know,
staying at home on your phone does, right, which I

(24:16):
know that probably a lot of people that need jerk
reaction is it is better to hang out with people
in person. I personally think it's more complicated than that.
I see, you know, people do depend on technology. I
really high rate that might not be healthy. But also
like it's not necessarily like face value better one or

(24:36):
the other. There's more to it than just like this
one is obviously the better one, I think, right, Oh,
there's definitely trade off, like this is like, oh no,
this happened, but this happened. Which would you choose? And
of course, looking back, you're like, I don't know which
I would choose. For me, I would choose my own thing.
And I'm like, yeah, it was much better for me
to be isolated with a small group of friends instead

(24:57):
of trying to navigate social media where I would like
pour my feelings out and regret poor my feelings out.
Zengga ah, I'm so sad I can't find that, So
here's another quote. The result is that anyone who isn't
sexual enough are sexual in the right way, becomes lesser.
The label of a sexual should be value neutral. It

(25:18):
should indicate a little more than sexual orientation. Instead, asexual
implies a slew of other negative associations passionless, uptight, boring, robotic, cold, prude, frigid, lacking. Broken. These,
especially broken, are the words aces use again and again
to describe how we are perceived and made to feel. Yeah,
it is interesting how we have, especially when it comes

(25:39):
to women, but for sure women as well. It's just different.
We have just all of these ideas and assumptions around,
and a lot of them are contradictory around sex and
wanting sex and how much sex. But speaking of men,
there is a whole chapter on the male ACE experience,
so here's a quote about that. Surveys of the ACE
communities show that far more women identify as a sexual

(26:01):
than men, about sixty three percent verses eleven percent according
to the most recent numbers, likely in part because asexuality
is a greater challenge to male sexual stereotypes. Men are
taught they are not men and therefore not deserving and
respect our status unless they can sleep with as many
women as possible. Right, And like I said, she does
talk about the experience of gay men feeling kind of

(26:22):
a similar thing, like you're not really a gay man
unless you're having a lot of sex. But also I
thought this was interesting because she brought in the idea
of insults and entitlement and how a lot of male
aces have to be like, but I'm not that are
like those assumptions that oh, you're an in cell or
oh you're something right, like you're going to be violent

(26:44):
or angry, And again coming back to this idea of entitlement,
like we talked about marital rape in the last one,
with this idea that men and white men generally are
entitled to sex with not just women, but like pretty
white women, and that it just shows this is another

(27:06):
way where this narrative, this idea, this assumption that everyone
wants sex and that people are entitled to sex, are
certain groups are entitled to sex. It's so damaging and
dangerous and violent. And we've talked about that before for sure,
the violence that has resulted from that, right, I hadn't
really thought about that. I've kind of mail aces having

(27:27):
that fend that off, right, I mean, that's definitely the
conversation is if you are ace, does that make you
effeminate because you're not. Again, if we're looking at sexist power,
which is often the conversation, then you have none. So
therefore you're not a true man quote unquote. And that's

(27:48):
so every you know, red blooded man's right, that's the
way their body is that they have no control. We
know this narrative, We've heard this narrative. This is the
excuse that we get for right for violence, as we
talked about before, and what does it look like for
a guy to be like, no, really, I don't care,
I don't want it, I don't I know it. And
I think she did a really great job. And when
she brought in the interview with the other man who

(28:09):
was talking about the facts that in his marriage, he
just did it because it was assumed he needed to
do it, and it wasn't because he wanted to, but
because it was I'm a man, I'm in a relationship.
I got to initiate sex and it was more of
a routine more than anything else. And then when his
partner was like, no, no no, no, I'm good, he was like, oh, really,
me too. I guess oh yeah, I am, I'm good.

(28:31):
I'm good, And to really have to retrain himself because
for men, as they grow older, as they grow up,
they are taught typically all the time, not all men,
I know, whatever, but is that this is your duty
as a man, this is who you are as a man.
And that same narrative of men think about sex more

(28:52):
than da da dada, how many times a day, and
that's all they think about, and that's all they see
in women or their partners sex, sex, sex, success in
the store, worry and then if you're not, then you're
not normal. You're not a very rile man of the world.
And that conversation is how harmful it is. And so
many ACE men and this may be the things that
they're not. They're not ace, they're just not identifying because

(29:15):
they've gotten into a routine to show off their manliness,
which is sad and honestly, I had a way back,
not my personal situation, where I'm looking at a couple
that did not work and she was really really frustrated
because she wanted sex and she wanted to have children.

(29:35):
He never wanted to touch her, and it got to
a point that it got volatile and it just there
was so much miscommunication and breakdown. And don't get me wrong,
there other things wrong. It's relationship. But my first I
was like, he may be a sexual and instead of
coming to terms with being that way, he's blaming it
on her and getting and lashing out and angry because
he can't. He's been told for so long, right, this

(29:58):
toxic idea of masculine that not doing so and admitting it,
then he is not a man. And therefore he can't
be head of household. In Yes, there's a lot of
religious stigma to that, and on top of that, because
he's so angry and unwilling to talk about it, he's
completely lashing out and blaming her for everything else and
making it her fault and she's believing it. There's so

(30:21):
many things to that, and that's like, oh Jesus, this
is what could happen if we're not honest with ourselves.
And that's probably a bigger portion of those numbers. I
would say, yeah, and that is It's another thing that
she talks about in this book that I really connected
with because I've also felt like I want to be

(30:42):
desired and I want to be like sexually desired, even
though I don't want sex, and like I want people
will say, like, well, why do you dress so you know,
sexily or whatever. I'm not necessarily talking about me in
this case, but like that's something that will come up
with a sexual people. Why do you do that if
you don't have sex? Because it is powerful and like
something that you might want, Like it feels good to

(31:03):
be sexually desired, but it is also painful. I can
totally understand of like if I'm not feeling that way
for in a relationship with somebody, and I'm not feeling
that way about them, just because I don't generally feel
that way, it can be hard not to take that
very personally. I'm like, oh, well, then something's wrong with me.
I'm not desirable or I'm not physically attractive or something

(31:24):
like that, and that you know, it sucks because it's
not necessarily the case, but it's just right how it works.
For again, you're not dressing for someone and you're not
going to hide someone, so it's not and you shouldn't
have to. It could be just for you. Point blank.

(31:45):
Looking nice and feeling good about yourself is not a
bad thing. Wanting to be wanted, it's not a bad thing.
I feel like that goes in everything. Once again, for myself,
I have this fear that no one likes me and
I'm not likable and I'm very much like people just
like the outside me, and then getting to know me
that really, oh, it's tiresome, and that's understandable to extend
to that point that I'm like, yeah, I want to

(32:07):
feel included and loved and I don't want to be
left out. And there's so much of that because for
so long, for my own trauma, and I'm sure I'm
going to come to this for an happy hour and
or on Monday, Mini, my own trauma meant I was unwanted,
point blank. I was just an afterthought and I'm here
and people don't actually want me, like that's as an orphan.

(32:29):
And I say that in the very open term that
I was. That is absolutely I was tossed about. I
was seen as unwanted. And then even in my family,
as much as they love me, they do, I was
always uthered and it is and it is, and it's
kind of that I'm forty years old and still dealing
with that because of situations like this. But wanting to

(32:49):
be truly wanted, if you truly believe it, that is
human nature. And unfortunately that's also what society has told us,
that if you are avowed, you you will be seen. Yeah,
and that's the end of that story, unfortunately. And we
have to figure out for ourselves how to change our
own interpretation, which sucks, Yes it does. And she keeps

(33:16):
writing it is a failure of society. If anyone needs
to say I have a partner to turn someone down
and it's a failure of society if anyone needs to
invoke a sexual orientation to avoid unwanted sex, because saying
no doesn't do the job. Yeah. Yeah, And this was
kind of a culmination of all of these things we've

(33:37):
been talking about of you know, people questioning your sexuality
when you say it and being like, oh, that just
means you don't want to have sex with me, and
taking it really personally or whatever. It is, like we
should live at a place, as we've been saying, where
for whatever the reason no is, that's it. I don't
have to explain it to you. That's just the end.
And also again this is that same conversation of hearing

(34:00):
and feeling rejected and taking that personally. Yeah, we have
to let that go, like this is not a rejection,
it's just where I am today, And if I don't
want to do this, I shouldn't have to feel obligated
to make you feel better, so violating my own sense
of self in order to make you feel comfortable. And

(34:22):
that's that whole thing of Yeah, we've gotten to this
point that that's more acceptable. Then we say that as
being nice and kind actuality is harmful for us, So
is it really nice and kind, or have we continue
to feed into the stigma that no is bad, right right, right, right,

(34:51):
Here is another quote. Life is a continuous process of
unlearning for minorities and anyone with less power. These groups, women,
people of color, and in the next chapter, disabled people
can find it very difficult to claim asexuality because it
looks so much like the product of sexism, racism, ableism,
and other forms of violence. The legacy of this violence
is that those who belong to a group that has
been controlled must do extra work to figure out the

(35:12):
extent to which we are still being controlled, which is
a lot of what we've been talking about, right, And
she continues on when it comes to race, so many
different complicated threads keep the ACE community white. And I
found this very interesting, by the way, so I'm really
glad we're getting into this. Asexuality, she says, has been
idealized and it has been denied. Both are problematic. Asexuality

(35:34):
is tied to whiteness because white people and especially white women,
are often assumed to be sexually quote pure, whereas black
and Latin X people are often considered hyper sexual. And
I would put Asian people there in there as well.
And these racialized sexual stereotypes are a form of control themselves.
At the same time, asexuality can also look suspiciously similar

(35:57):
to racial tropes like the mammy or the an adult,
which again keeps people of color away. So yeah, I
did find this interesting because she is a woman of
Asian scent. When she talks, she didn't include Asian people
in the hyper sexualize, but I'm like, there's a lot,
like that's the whole Asian fetish level, which includes for
some like not necessarily all of anime, but a lot

(36:18):
of anime got twisted into very hyper sexualized Asian women,
like in general, whether it's torture born or any of that.
And again, I know this is different from anime, Like
I get it. There's a love and appreciation and it
is beautiful and I think it's wonderful. But when we're
talking about that negative stereotype and we see that hinte
type of anime porn, that's gets so like, oh a

(36:41):
skewed to the point that it's super on supernatural. The
level of Asian fetishism in there is like why why
was it necessary? Y'all? Who who in your group is
doing this? Stop it? But that is that characterization that's
overly sexualized as women once again kind of again the
Atlanta shooting, And I know this was written before all

(37:02):
of that happened, but I found that interesting that she
took that out and she didn't include that and put
them in the China doll category, which, by the way,
chime doll category I actually was also a sexualized manner
two and not the sweet I guess maybe this is
more of the Tiger Mom maybe level in that same
of like asexual. She's not hyper sexual, she's controlled and
prudish essentially and harsh, so I could see that way.

(37:26):
But I found that interesting that she left that differently,
and maybe it's because that's how she sees herself in this,
but anyway, that was just a sigement. Yeah, I mean
so many things were tie into this because this also
reminds me of the of the episodes we did on
virginity and like that whole idea of like that being
sexualized almost like the lack of sexual experience being sexualized,

(37:50):
which I have seen a lot actually now that I
think about it, and fan fiction too interesting. But this
is another thing going back to like those stereotypes that
were talking about of like always trying to fight them
and wondering why you're trying to fight them, Like why
do I want something? Is it me that actually wants it?
Or is it some kind of programming I've absorbed feeling

(38:12):
alienated from multiple communities because, as we said, Chen did
interview people from all types of communities, and yeah, this
is assumption that only white people can be aced because
it's already like not that well known, but even that
is pretty white. And so if you never hear about it,
like I said, I wouldn't have who knew, who knows

(38:33):
if I'd never heard about it on this show, what
would happen? That that was really fascinating And it's just
like another layer of questioning that you have to do
about who you are and how you identify and that
I mean that being said, I did want to briefly
touch on representation because that is important and that is
a way that people can see that this exists. And

(38:55):
one of the things people talked about, which is something
I talked about, was Todd from bo Jack Horsemen and people.
That's why when I learned that's when I was like,
oh my god, that's me. So if you haven't seen it, Yeah,
there's a whole arc where Todd realizes he's a sexual
and he creates an app and he has a really supportive,
like semi girlfriend who's totally like okay, yeah, but I

(39:18):
want to read a quote about that cherish as he is,
Todd is not a perfect solution for one. Bo Jack
has ended, and so have Game of Thrones and Shadow Hunters.
There are now zero a sexual characters on primetime television,
according to the Glad Media Institute, which tracks queer characters
and television and started including a sexual characters a few
years ago. Yeah, as we've discussed in recent Listener Mail episodes,

(39:40):
though there's more going on outside of prime time television.
Perhaps perhaps, And here's another quote, there exists no perfect,
iron clad formula for understanding how sexuality and health interact,
but that hasn't prevented people from believing, in elegant but
incorrect statement, people who don't want sex are sick, and
people who are sick that mentally or physically disabled or

(40:01):
different in some way don't want sex. So this is
I mean, there is so much in that chapter, and
this is something I really struggled with with, like the
eating disorder and trauma like thinking that something has to
be wrong, right, this means I'm not healthy, And I
was thinking about it in terms of we have a
running joke on the other podcast, I do savor everything

(40:22):
was an aphrodisiac at one point, and that's just pretty
telling that that's there's a long history of believing that
low sex drive means something is wrong with you and
something needs to be fixed. And I'm not saying that
that that's never an issue and it's never a problem,
but that I mean, you know, it's also a joke
too about how much money we put into Viagrid. It's
just so important and such a kind of understood thing that, yeah,

(40:46):
no sex drive means something is not right here, right,
and I do yeah. And also to come back to
like those who are physically disabled talking about the fact
that they couldn't even recognize they were a sexual because
they just assumed it was their disability and or was
told that it was just their disability and actuality. No,
this is exactly who they are. And there are people

(41:08):
obviously who are sexual that are disabled, and this is
a nonsense to assume automatically, and which does happen a
lot that physical disable or automatically a sexual and that's
almost like a running joke, and it's like that's so
so harmful for both communities that why would you do
this and why would we assume this and why would
we allow this as a conversation. But yeah, the double

(41:29):
down on again, like can you like I cannot imagine
having to defend myself either way and be like why
would you have this as a narrative? Please stop it?
And such an ablest trope, right, yeah, Yeah, here's another
quit about that many aces were once aloes diagnosed with
a disorder and prescribed hormones off label because they learned
about asexuality and decided they were fine, As is a

(41:52):
change in perspective is all that is necessary to switch
from one to the other, from sick to well disordered,
two different. So that's more about like changing your mind
mindset in this case of like maybe nothing's wrong with
me and I don't need to be taking these things
to up my sex drive, which we are constantly bemarted with.
But there is a whole chapter about, yeah, the disabled

(42:13):
community in that double whammy, and yeah, we have a
quote from it actually, so she says you can be
asexual if your disability caused your a sexuality, and you
can be a sexual if sexual trauma caust you a sexuality,
and you can be asexual if you lose your sexual
desire later in life. The asexual community should be there

(42:34):
to help in all these cases. You don't have to
be part of the asexual community forever. But the lesson
that a happy life for Aces is possible regardless of
origin is one that is important, and one that includes you.
Two is for you even if you don't identify as ACE.
If asexuality is fine, so is every other form of

(42:54):
a low sexual desire or so called sexual dysfunction. Anyone
who has any form of desire or attraction or higher
than normal can still be okay better than okay, Yes, yes,
And then I wanted to include this one because this
was something that really fascinated me, So she wrote, Aces
know that sex is not always the dividing line that

(43:16):
determines whether relationship is romantic. We take another look and say,
maybe you're in love with your friend even though you're
not sexually attracted to her. Questions about the definition of
romantic love are the starting point for Aces to think
about love and romance in unexpected ways. From new explicit
categories beyond friendship and romance, to the opportunities legal, social,
and more of a world where romantic love is not
the type of love valued above all others. Asexuality destabilizes

(43:39):
the way people think about relationships, starting with the belief
that passionate bonds must always have sex at a route. Yes, yes, yes,
this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately
because I just feel very passionately about people, and I
care about people a lot, and I do. I feel
like I do thinking about it like this and going
really back to my for and questioning things and then

(44:01):
questioning my worldview and like what does relationship look like
and what kind of look like? It's been It's been
really liberating and interesting. I'm just somebody who's like a
nerd about that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think
that that's good. I would, I mean I would. Again,
this is not just very sexual people. I would advise
everybody to ask yourself these questions and think about how

(44:21):
how things can look and why just asking being mindful
and asking questions about yourself. Right, and goes on to

(44:42):
say it's already taking for granted that sexual desire doesn't
need to include infatuation or caring. One night stands and
fuddy arrangements are all explicitly sexual and explicitly non romantic.
The opposite conclusion that for some infatuation never included never
turns into sexual desires, it's harder for people to accept,

(45:03):
at least in the West. Yeah, that's very true, and
on point that's true. I always think of how there's
like a word for friends with benefits, but there's not
really just friends, no, but I mean like being kind
of in a relation the benefits there is sex, right,
but what if the benefits wasn't sex, right, that's just friendship.

(45:26):
That's just that's the actual The other part is they added.
And then as we wrap up here, there so much
was covered in this book, and some of it it's
just frustrating how some of it feels so basic, like
I should have known this already, but just hearing reading

(45:46):
about it, I was like, oh yeah. But one thing
that she wrote about was like you can ask things
of others too, you can ask them to compromise, and
that should be just I should have known that already,
But that's something I still struggle with, and I just
always felt so much guilt not having sex, and it
was always about the other person, even though she also

(46:07):
writes about how in her relationship, a lot of times
she's the one that feels pressure to have sex and
the other person might be like, no, it's cool, but
she has that I guess because it's not like a
natural thing you're feeling, so you're kind of trying to
gauge what is quote unquote normal. I'm wanting to do
that for someone else, but yeah, I don't know why

(46:30):
that's like, yes, I can ask things of other people. Yeah,
but she asked. That goes into like we talked about
desire for a little bit, different types of love and relationships,
constant questioning of why you want to have sex, and
what happens if you remove that question, if you remove
it as the dominant force in all relationships. She talks

(46:53):
about negotiation in the kink community Duty two have Sex,
which we also talked about, and breaking down consents and
rate and sex and all those ideas. Right. I really
did like how she talked about the king community, and
we talked about it in our episode. Brought in them

(47:14):
and the fact that they communicate and able to understand
each other, and how they've created a safe environment, and
that's why people who are ace really are love this
environment because you're able to open everything and nothing is taboo,
including lack of sex and lack of penetration and being
able to be as you were, let's say, like being
on the edge of something and enjoying just that without

(47:37):
the physical touch necessarily. And I found that really interesting
because yeah, we talked about that that even though things
can go awry, the king community has a better understanding
of consent and understanding that this is negotiable, This is
not negotiable, right, let's talk about it. And I thought
I was like, yeah, just having that reminder of like, yeah,
they were really right on and just what that looks

(47:59):
like beyond just the community and into personal relationships and
being able to actually walk and talk things through. But also, yeah,
there was a bit of a moment where I had
and I think it's because I have a background and
working with a sexual assault victims as well as you know,
you and I are both traumatized victims from past. When

(48:20):
she was talking about consent and the language between rape
and sex, and of course that narrative of that rapists
not sex essentially, and going back and forth and I
understand exactly what you're talking about in having because we
talked about it when we did the book club with
Come as you are about talking about the gray levels,
so having again a spectrum of consent and what that

(48:42):
could look like. And when she was talking about it, it
it was obviously for ace people to understand, or to
those who are trying to learn this about themselves to
understand that just because it's consent, it doesn't mean it's
consent true consent, and having those level to enthusiast stick
from Coors and one of the things that I wanted

(49:03):
to get back to and have this thing is like,
it's really really dangerous. This conversation is very, very important.
But when it comes to context of black and white law,
which is what they operated on, the guilty not guilty
verdict of law, how this can be really really misconstrued
in the court communities, and how it defends lawyer could
take this and run with it into saying, see, it

(49:26):
may not have been it was not rape because there
was some type of consent. And even to the point
that we've talked about the fact that we have to
be black and white about it because they even take
the she went home with him passed out that was
consent in the story, which was what we know. It's like, no,
that's not true. If she couldn't say yes, then she

(49:50):
couldn't say no. So we need to understand that that
was not consent, period, but that there's a again she's
not talking about that, and we know this, I know
this beyond that, but giving to an example of like
how yes, I really wish there was a better way
to present this as a law enforcement or court level
of conversation. But because they do not, and they care

(50:13):
not to, Like that's the biggest stuff. This is not
something they care to change ever, because the question of
but what about him? But what about the perpetrator? He
has rights too, and forgetting that her rights had been
violated altogether in this conversation. And then yeah, even talking
about the marital aspect of rape that I think even

(50:35):
in some courts, even in some states, they still haven't
put that in their books, and we need to talk
about that. And so if it's there, then it can
be presented and it will stand until it is seen
and over like have to go through all the constitutional levels,
which oftentimes doesn't happen. So there's so many things that
we can talk about this, but in that age of consent, Like, yes,

(50:57):
there are these levels, but with the reason the breaking
between the no consent this is rape, this is sex,
and I fall to the coarse consent means is rape.
Like I will say this to this day, like to
the point that just because they finally talked you into
giving it up doesn't mean you weren't right. You were.
It was it was a violation of your rights. They

(51:17):
held you essentially until you said yes, and that way
they can be you know, told they didn't fight me
type of right. So there's so many layers to this,
and yeah, absolutely it's a societal thing that we need
to look at. But what we know of what we're
seeing today in the court's judicial system, they really side

(51:38):
on the caution of the patriarchy, and unfortunately we have
to be that blunt. But maybe pushing that line and recognizing, hey,
if you're that person who has to push someone to
have sex, you're gross and you're violating that person like that,
that's the point that we need to get to and
that if at any point they change their mind, they

(51:59):
have that right and that's when you stop. So that
is that level of like at beyond consent. Enthusiastic consent
is a no, and it should be able to be prosecuted,
to be mad, to be honest, Yeah, it reminded me.
I mean, it reminded me of a lot of things.
It reminded me of the whole a zz and sorry
thing and how a lot of mostly women were like yes,
I hear that, and a lot of mostly men were

(52:20):
like what. Oh No. I had several women who told
me that They're like what, that's not she's complaining, she's
making victims look bad. Yeah, I mean I heard women
for sure, but it was mostly men in my in
my experience, but just kind of that level. And then
also especially when I was younger, there was definitely things
and yeah, I mean I am a sexual sorry speaking

(52:41):
for that experience, but there were definitely things I agreed
to because I thought I should want to agree to them,
and then later just felt violated, like felt greatly wrong
and like hurt. And it's hard to pinpoint what that
is because it's like, well, I you know, I said yes,
and I thought I wanted it, but yeah, that being said,
I was like just taking away a love Like most

(53:04):
of this book, you know, ask questions, and there's too
many things that we're sort of relying on, assumptions on,
or have been kind of indoctrinated in. And obviously this
is a two partner, so there's a lot, a lot,
a lot we could discuss. I did want to end
on this quote. The goal of ACE liberation is simply
the goal of true sexual and romantic freedom for everyone.

(53:26):
A society that is welcoming to aces can never be
compatible with rape culture, with misogyny, racism, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia,
with current hierarchies of romance and friendship and contractual notions
of consent. It is a society that respects choices and
highlights the pleasure that can be found everywhere in our lives.
I believe that all of this is possible. Oh, I
hope so. And Yeah, to be clear, like we touched

(53:49):
on this, but she's done. There's definitely problems in a
sexual community, and there has been for since it's existed.
It's not different than any other community and that regard.
But yeah, I thought that was a very helpful note
to end on. Yeah. Yeah, again, I think she does
a great job in aligning this with Yeah, an implication

(54:11):
of what society looks like because that could be said
for all of these things, liberation for all people's in general,
and that conversation just like you know low key TLDR
and this thing, it's like, we should allow for choice
and freedom to be comfortable in our choice as long
as it's not harming others or yourself. I don't understand

(54:32):
this level, Like I if that there's something on you,
that's on you, if you feel a bias for some reason,
you need to pick through why you have this bias,
not tell them something that they are doing something wrong.
And that's either it's you want you don't think it's
feminist enough, or you think it's too ridiculous, like any
of those things. Is like, that's on you as the

(54:52):
individual who's having this opinion because you cannot accept and
can't move past this, right right, right, yep, ask more
questions always always, well, definitely check this book out if
you haven't already. As always, we would love to hear
from you book suggestions or otherwise. You can email us
at Stuffy DM mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

(55:14):
can find us on Twitter at most of podcasts, or
on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You thanks, it's
always too our super producer Christina, thank you, and thanks
to you for listening stuff I Never told Youse, production
of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
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