April 3, 2017 • 44 mins
The release of Beyonce's secret "visual album" in December 2013 was hailed as her feminist manifesto, setting off an internet-wide discussion about the mega-star's public image versus her personal politics. Cristen and Caroline weigh in on the pop cultural significance of Beyonce's feminism.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about Beyonce.
It's right, yeah. And the last night before we came
into the studio, I posted on Facebook that we were
(00:26):
going to talk about Beyonce and solicited listeners thoughts on
her because we're specifically talking about Beyonce and feminism in
their response, at least as a right before walking into
the studio was so perfect because there was someone who
was all about Beyonce, saying, Yeah, she's fantastic and really
(00:49):
great for girls and super empowering, and another woman who
was just staunchly against Beyonce. I think she's a total
phony when it comes to feminism. Doesn't like the way
that she dress is and how bootylicious she is. And
then another woman who said Beyonce, we're going to talk
about Beyonce. Really, I feel like that Facebook snapshot just
(01:10):
sums up the Beyonce spectrum. Yeah, I um, I do
not surprisingly follow anything that Beyonce says or does. I
had kind of been aware on the periphery that, like
she had expressed some stuff about being a feminist or
about feminism in general, and I hadn't really given it
much thought because I just tend to take everything that
(01:34):
pop stars of any ILKs say with a grain of salt, right,
and so I just didn't bother to like look up
anything that she had said. And as I was reading, uh,
as I was reading her words that she had pinned
for the Shriver Report and reading stuff about her album
and her lyrics, I mean there was a part of
me that was admittedly impressed. I mean, you don't typically
(01:58):
see young email pop stars these days owning the word feminist,
and here she is calling herself one, talking about equal
pay for equal work, men needing to demand equal pay
for the women in their lives, etcetera, etcetera. So that
that by itself, like in a little microcosm, like that's impressive.
(02:18):
But um, I think personally that the debate over Beyonce's
feminism is the more interesting part of this topic, not
necessarily Beyonce and her feminism or not itself. Yeah, I
completely agree this. This podcast isn't so much meant to
be the Beyonce biopic by any means, but more because
(02:42):
the blogosphere almost collapsed in on itself around Christmas, right
after she dropped her secret visual album on December right
before midnight, and everyone was just spinning their wheels saying,
oh my goodness, she's side being a you know, a
feminist thinker and she's using the word feminism. But she's
(03:03):
doing this and she's crawling around on the floor, And
what do we think about Beyonce. Is it a feminist
manifesto like Melissa Harris Perry says it is, or is
it just the same old stuff being cater you know,
catering to the male gaze. What do we make of this?
And so many people we're just talking talking about Beyondce
and feminism, Beyonce and feminism, that I felt like, yeah,
(03:27):
we should talk about it, especially because to someone made
a good point in one of these essays where it's
like it's worth talking about because Beyonce has a massive
following of girls, very few of whom are probably taking
women's studies classes, you know what I mean? Yeah, I
think And you know, christ and I were talking about
this and I was telling her that I think that
(03:49):
any time young girls and and really women, anybody uh
is exposed to the idea of feminism the word feminism,
the definition of it, the the culture surrounding it. I mean,
I think that's such a positive thing. And so if yes,
so if this pop star brings feminism into people's lives,
I think that's positive. Well, before we get into Beyonce
(04:11):
and feminism, I just want to offer a quick timeline
of Beyonce's rise to Beyonce dum because it's really I mean,
she's sort of in her her own galaxy at this point.
Uh So it all started, really though, in when Beyonce
was simply known as another member of Destiny's Child. This
is way back when you know, even a little bit
(04:33):
after the star search days. Her dad's her manager, her
mom's making all of Destiny's Child's costumes. Um. And what
was interesting to me it was the same year the
Destiney's Child and drops its first album, you have Lauren
Hill becoming the first female artist nominated for and winning
the most Grammys in a single night for her Miseducation
(04:56):
of Lauren Hill album. So some interesting synchronous y there.
And then she goes solo in two thousand and three
when she's twenty one, with the album Dangerously in Love,
and uh I found a New York Times review of
the album, and it was headlined solo Beyonce, She's no Ashanti,
which kind of made me feel old because I laughed
(05:18):
just like that. I was like, oh, yeah, Shanty. But
it was interesting though, because even back then with that
first album, the reviewer was talking about how Beyonce sort
of carved out this identity of being this fiercely independent woman,
whereas a Shanty was maybe suffering career wise because she
had always been attached to this group of, you know,
male rappers and was sort of always a little bit
(05:41):
of an accessory to them, whereas Beyonce has always kind
of been yeah, even in the dusty child days. Yeah,
she she really never hitched her wagon to a male star. Yeah,
how do you like that? Although except Jay Z, well yeah,
jay z uh. And that will obviously sleep come up
in this conversation about her feminism because in two thousand
(06:05):
and eight she marries Jay Z, same year she releases
Sasha Fierce Um. Two thousand twelve, daughter Blue Ivy is born,
and in two thousand thirteen, it's kind of the year
of Beyonce. She does the Super Bowl. Miss magazine put
her on the cover, and people freaked out, and not
(06:25):
in a good way, because I think the cover headline
was something along the lines of Beyonce and her fierce feminism,
and I just I saw some screenshots from the Miss
magazine Facebook page and people people weren't happy. Women were
not happy about that. Um. And then yeah, just before
(06:45):
midnight December, Beyonce the Visual Album drops on iTunes and
then you know, breaks a ba jillion sales records. Yeah,
insanity ensues, I mean absolutely, yeah. So let's let's talk
about Beyonce and feminism. Caroline. Yeah, she uh, she had
(07:06):
given some quotes to people, one of those people being
British Vogue, and she'd also talked to g Q and
said things about being like kind of a feminist, like
feminist in a way, and so a lot of people
when all of this this Beyonce feminism rigamarole started after
her album came out and after she pinned an essay
for The Shriver Report. Um, a lot of people were saying, like, look,
(07:28):
she can't even claim the term, like she's not you know,
she's just wearing her booty shorts and dancing around. She's
not a real feminist. Um. But she told British Vogue
that I guess I am a modern day feminist. I
do believe in equality. Why do you have to choose
what type of woman you are? Why do you have
to label yourself anything? I'm just a woman and I
(07:50):
love being a woman. I do believe in equality and
that we have a way to go and it's something
that's pushed aside and something that we have to have
been conditioned to accept. And when that quote, you know,
it hit the blogosphere again because I feel like a
lot of this conversation is, you know, really lives largely
on the internet. Um, a lot of people were kind
(08:10):
of disappointed in it by the fact that she seemed
reluctant to claim feminism, she seemed to qualify it a
little bit, and also doing that thing of someone I
mean when it comes to image management, Beyonce is Queen
b for sure, and you can kind of hear echoes
in that of saying, well, you know, why do I
(08:31):
need to label myself? Can't I be a woman? I'm
you know, I mean, that's that's that to me, is
something that a woman who it makes money off of
her image is going to say. So I can understand
that kind of that kind of nervousness. Maybe. Well, but
then when she was talking to g Q, on whose
(08:51):
cover she was photographed, you know, wearing like an to
call a crop top would be generous, she was wearing
like this almost boobearing shirt and like any tiny panties,
and but inside she gives the quote about feminism and
about how it's ridiculous that we that men are shaping
women's images and what is sexy and what it's feminine. Yeah,
(09:12):
I mean, it's it's clear from what she says that
she she's she knows what's up. She knows about the
mail gaze and sexual objectification and how could she not
being as successful as she is as a pop star.
I think that you only need to watch maybe one
of her videos to kind of figure that out. And
(09:32):
she you know, I mean, she fired her dad as
her manager in two thousand eleven. She's like she wholly
owns her empire at this point. Um. But with that
latest album Beyonce, it's like it was kind of her
feminist coming out parties. Some think you could at least
say that with a couple of tracks, sure, yeah, I
(09:54):
mean she has songs that cover the danger of obsessing
about your looks about women receiving sexual pleasure and liking
to receive sexual pleasure and it being okay for feminists
to like it. She even delivers I didn't really, I
just I was like, what is she saying in French?
What is this? I did not realize she was delivering
Julianne Moore's big Lebowski monologue about women and feminist liking sex. Yeah,
(10:16):
the translation is men think that feminists hates sex, but
it's a very stimulating and natural activity that women love.
This though, is in the middle of a song all
about I think it's off a partition where it's all
about how she and jay Z can't even get to
(10:37):
a party or the club that they're going to because
they're doing it in the back of the limo not
to be crashed. But I mean it's it's pretty explicit.
Hey when that happens, I'm like, I just need to
get to work. Well, then one of the lines of
the song is it took me forty five minutes to
get dressed and we're not even going to make it
there because we can't keep our hands off each other.
And she does talk about how in that song, especially
(10:59):
how she wants to be the girl that he wants
jay z wants. I mean, that's so easy. Well, she
also does address marriage and relationships being hard, that it's
okay to have problems and doubts and you know, should
we get married, blah blah blah, all that stuff, And
she even says that she talks about being more than
(11:19):
quote just his little wife. Yeah and and flawless, to
which I think of what got a lot of people
talking the most about Beyonce in feminism. She has a
line in the beginning of the song talking about how
you know, just because she might refer to herself as
Mrs Carter, don't basically, don't get it twisted. This is
(11:41):
all her stuff, this is her business, right. But that
song also features the much talked about speech It was
actually a Ted talk by Nigerian born writer Chimamanda Negozi
Adici uh talking about feminism and the definition of feminism,
but how she Adici would amend that definition to include
some more things. Yeah, and so for just a little
(12:03):
SoundBite of what Beyonce samples from that Ted talk. We
teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller. We
say to girls, you can have ambition, but not too much.
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful,
otherwise you will threaten the man. She says, we teach
girls that they cannot be sexual beings the way boys are.
(12:23):
Feminist as a person who believes in the social, political,
and economic equality of the sexes. And meanwhile, you know,
in this video Beyonce is I mean, she's she's just
like dancing and she's so angry and like making just
like she's so fierce. Is so overused these days, I
feel like, but she's fierce in that video as this
(12:46):
you know, woman is going on and on about feminism.
So people are like, what whoa, yeah, this is revolutionary.
But then other people being like, but she's gotta just
you know, booty shaken, right, and and you know, we
talked about how she had penn and essay for The
Shriver Report, which is Maria Shriver's website, in which Beyonce
(13:06):
talks about how equality doesn't exist, but it will be achieved,
uh quote when men and women are granted equal pay
and equal respect. And she talks about how attitudes about
women being less than are drilled into our heads from
an early age. So a common refrain that our podcast
listeners would be familiar with. But one thing too that
jumped out to me was that she used her legal
(13:27):
name in that essay, which is Beyonce Cardinals. She's not
Mrs Carter, as was the name of her World to War.
That she also got a lot of flak about that.
We'll talk about too. But you know it's an intentional hyphenation, right, Well,
I mean jay Z that's his legal name now too,
Seawn Cardinals as a jay Z Carter. Yeah, that's that's
(13:48):
the same, right, jay Z. Um. But as all of
this is happening in December and the first of this year,
this just sparks all of this debate, and like you said, Caroline,
the conversation about debate and the fact that we're talking
about it in the way that we're talking about it.
When I say we am going to say feminists at large,
(14:09):
not that we represent all of them by any means, um,
but these conversations, I think are say a lot about
modern feminism, and it's worthwhile to look into the substance
of these conversations, almost Beyonce's side, but not Beyonce's side. Um.
So we're gonna talk about this, this debate and the
(14:31):
people who say, absolutely, Beyonce plus feminism equals amazing, and
the people who say, Nope, sorry, Beyonce, you are you're
not cutting it. When we come right back from a
quick break and now the back to the podcast. So
before the break, we were just walking you through the
(14:54):
development of this really humongous, explosive internet conversation basically about
Beyonce and her feminism and how genuine it is, because
basically the argument boils down to, no, she's not a
real feminist. It's just marketing and pr so she can
make more money and get her name in the news.
And no, she's totally a feminist. And not only is
(15:14):
she a feminist, but she's advocating for empowerment and equality
for women, particularly women of color. Yeah, I mean, and
on the yes side of the argument, I mean you
can go to I mean, there are plenty of feminists
who automatically uphold Beyonce as an incredible, amazing, empowering icon,
pop icon and now feminist icon because she is as
(15:37):
successful as she is, because you know her, she is
so fearlessly bears her body and owns her business and
you know, sing songs about independence, and I mean, off
the you know, most recent album, Beyonce, you have songs
like pretty Hurts where she's acknowledging that, Yeah, even though
she is Beyonce and looks like Beyonce, body image is
(15:59):
still something that affects us all. And what better person
do you hear something like that from then Beyonce? You
know right? Yeah? Elan a document from Time magazine talks
about how Beyonce is singing about love and sex more
boldly than ever, peppering those songs with messages about independence
and motherhood and we're eating it up. You know, these
(16:19):
are things. Beyonce is a figure who is supposedly showing uh,
young girls and women that it is okay to be
a vibrant sexual being and be a mother and be
a wife, but also be that independent woman that you
want to be. And Documen also talks to about how
she kind of represents a generational divide perhaps in feminism
(16:42):
where some people might not be so on board with it,
because in a way, she's her own type of feminist.
Doctuman writes, we millennials are not of the traditional generation
of feminist who believed that a woman needs a man
like a fish needs a bicycle. Yeah, and so Documan
talks about how Beyonce is sort of at the forefront
of this, this younger generation of feminists who maybe aren't
(17:06):
fighting against the idea of I don't know, men, of relationships,
of marriage, of the traditional bonds of motherhood, all of
that stuff. Maybe she's not fighting against that so hard.
Maybe she's just fighting for equality, and she's fighting for
it in her own way. So there are plenty of
people on on this side of the conversation saying, go Beyonce,
(17:27):
Beyonce for the win. But then there are also plenty
of people saying, even based on this most recent album
in which yes, fantastic that you sampled Chimamanda Negoziadici, but hey,
let's talk about drunk in Love and something that jay
Z says in that and that she also sang along
with when they opened the Grammys. Yeah, so his part
(17:52):
in that song, he he says, I'm Ike Turner, now
eat the cake aname And for those not aware, that
is from a scene in the movie What's Love Got
to Do With It about Tina Turner, and basically Ike
Turner is shoving literally shoving cake in her face. It's
a moment of you know, terror, when he's basically abusing
(18:14):
her in public. And so a lot of people are
left like, basically, you know, the record scratched for a
lot of people, Like what. A lot of people are saying,
that's just part of the song. It's just it's just music,
you know, let it go. But there are other people
who were saying, how can you call yourself a feminist
but condone your husband's singing about spousal abuse in your song? Yeah?
(18:37):
I mean, And and for people who haven't heard Drunken Love,
first of all, you probably heard Drunken Love and they
might not have realized it from the outside. The first
time I listened to it, and I wasn't aware of
that line or and especially not with that lineman. I
was like, well, Beyonce and jay Z, I mean, talk
about an argument for a married couple because they are
(18:57):
having sex in a bathtub and she is making surfboard
references and riding waves and I feel like I can't
even talk anymore about it on this podcast. Um. And
in a way, it's like, oh, good for them. They
are a married couple with a kid and they still
have crazy nuts together, so what's wrong with that? But then, yeah,
(19:18):
the record scratch so loudly. For me. Once someone actually
tweeted at me about this line, I was like, oh no,
And this is when it gets in. We started getting
into the territory of trying to jump inside of Beyonce
and jay Z's brains and be like, well, is this
Maybe this is like a dynamic in their relationship. Maybe
they're like into b D s M, or maybe this
(19:39):
means something to them that it doesn't mean to us.
It's still for someone again who is so hyper vigilant
of image management, it's like, what what has that got
to be in there? Yeah? And I mean I think
that's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind. Whenever
you're analyzing anything that fiance says, does say things, whatever,
(20:00):
you have to remember how carefully she manages her own
I mean, this is a woman who has you know,
basically staff photographers and videographers with her at all times.
This is a woman who you know, got her people
to tell BuzzFeed to take down unflattering images of her
when her face was doing something weird. Um, So this
is not just like this is not ignorance, like I
(20:21):
don't know, I don't know what this is, but it's
the choice. I mean, it's it's a deliberate choice. Yeah,
but I I mean, I just you have to wonder why.
And then um a Ceba Solomon over at color lines
dot Com does think that this is essentially well condoning
spousal abuse or domestic abuse at worst, but at best
(20:42):
just not thinking it's a big deal. And she also
points out that during Beyonce's Grammy performance of the song
with jay Z, like jay Z is fully dressed, but
Beyonce is like half naked and soaking wet. She does say,
you know, that's that's her prerogative. Women should be allowed
to dress however they want to dres us where whatever
they want to wear or don't wear, however, like this
(21:03):
is an image choice that she's choosing to make. Well,
And if you're so surprised by the Grammys, Like, how
are you that surprised? Because that's the video, that's the
aesthetic of the video. She's writhing around on the beach
in lingerie and jay Z is in a T shirt
right and nothing new sure, And and as we'll talk
(21:25):
about in just a second, like you know, we're people
as upset at Madonna right right right? And also side no,
I don't want to see jay z shirt listening he
cuts a good figure in a tuxedo. I'll leave it
at that. But moving away from aesthetic choices lyrical choices
to more of the production side of things. Uh. David
(21:47):
Levycy writing at Policy Mike, also points out that, hey, Beyonce,
if you're all about girls running the world and what's not,
why don't you help some ladies out in the production
of your music. Yeah. He points out that out of
the forty five artists listed in the liner notes to
this latest album, which includes writers, producers, directors, et cetera,
(22:11):
only six are women, and he wrote that this is
a surprising move for the pop star who very deliberately
chose the all female backing band The Sugar Momas for
her Super Bowl halftime show last year and for her
Mrs Carter tour side note. Um a friend of mine,
I was talking to a friend of mine about this
topic and he is a musician, and he was like, well,
(22:31):
you know, I you know, I kind of think it's
stupid that she pulled together this all female band. And
I was like, what do you mean, Like, please please
qualify your statement, and he said, look, I just I
know some of the guys that used to perform with her,
and they were better. They're just better musicians. And I
thought about it for a second, and I said, you know,
I don't care because I personally, I think if if
(22:56):
somebody's going to make a statement along the lines of
empowering women and giving jobs to women and putting women
in your face who were like b A musicians, you know, like,
I'm okay with that. I'm okay with her choosing musicians
who may not be as good as the guys who
she was playing with, but they're still amazing, right, Because
(23:18):
that's clearly in Beyonce's own words, because that's one thing
that's often left out these conversations or Beyonce's own words
um when she talks about why she pulled together the
Sugar Mama's It wasn't necessarily because she was looking for
the best musicians out there. She said, quote when I
was younger, I wish I had more females who played
instruments to look up to. I played piano for like
(23:38):
a second, but then I stopped. I just wanted to
do something which would inspire other young females to get
involved in music. So I put together in all women
bands and I mean, I'm thirty and I think that's
so cool. Like, let's you know, that's not even to
talk about a twelve year old girl out there who
might think, oh wow, look at those women being powerful
and amazing and sweaty up on stay age, like rocking
(24:00):
out with Beyonce at the freaking super Bowl, Like I
think that's amazing. Yeah, and giving her the benefit of
the doubt too, you can also argue that she is
not going to be able to make every single or
probably doesn't want to make every single hiring decision for
her massive team, right, And Christine osa Zua was blogging
(24:23):
about this, and she said, look, it's just it's impractical
to put all of that weight on one human being,
one woman, Beyonce, to sort of be the savior for
all women. She can't lift everyone up. You know. She
this is her career, and like we've said, she's managing it.
She's making all these decisions, but it's not like she
can you know, has every ounce of control over every
(24:44):
aspect of who she performs with. You know. And when
I read that very pertinent point made by osa Zua,
it also resonated me in terms of like, yeah, this
is like, this isn't just about the music industry. We
can't really hold up as a beacon of hope for
radically changing the lives of women everywhere, and yet we
(25:05):
want to. Yeah, I mean we want to. It's it's
like the anger that comes out of this is almost saying,
you disappoint me when it's not her responsibility to be
some feminist savior. But at the same time, too, you'll
have people say, well, okay, with all of the power
that she does wield in the pop world and that influence,
(25:27):
you can't argue that, you know, she doesn't have massive influence. Sure,
so what about the decision to, for instance, title her
tour the Mrs Carter Show, which, again, that is a choice,
that was a deliberate choice. Yeah, and this is a
woman who has said that she wouldn't be the woman
she is today if she didn't go home to that man,
(25:48):
And a lot of people are saying, oh, you're defining
yourself by this man, You're defining yourself by your marriage.
And she's not entirely disagreeing. She is her own woman.
She is a powerful, intelligent businesswoman, but she also happens
to be crazy in love with jay Z. Yeah, and
and some have said to hey, listen. Barack Obama has
(26:10):
said similar things about Michelle in terms of hey, I
wouldn't be standing here, as you know, Commander in chief
if it weren't for my best friend of you know,
X number of years and the person who has supported
me through all of this um And she did actually
speak to the decision to name the tour the Mrs
(26:31):
Carter Tour in that interview with British, but we sided earlier.
She said, quote, I feel like Mrs Carter is who
I am, but more bold and more fearless than I've
ever been. It comes from my knowing my purpose and
really meeting myself. Once I saw my child, I was like, okay,
this is what you were born to do. And this
is what really stood out to me. She said, the
purpose of my body became completely different, and that just
(26:53):
blew my mind because underlying all of these, this whole
conversation about it is she doesn't she is she really
what she says she is. In terms of feminism, it
all circles back to her body and how we view
her body and how she wants us to view her body,
and whether she's putting her body on display for herself
or for other men, or just for jay Z, you know,
(27:17):
and the whole issue of how do we reconcile her
sexuality and her commodifying her own body and feminism. Yeah,
and a lot of people would argue that, look, hey,
it's just not feminist. You're not a feminist for putting
on some slinky body suit and dancing around. And one
of those people who spoke out about that was Anna Holmes,
(27:39):
who's the founder of Jezebel, And you know, she says
that maybe this is like a younger feminist game, Like,
it's not of her more conservative, older feminist perspective to
you know, dance around in basically a bikini. Um. She
says that, you know, it's it feels like a performance
just for the benefit of men. And similarly, Ernest Owens,
(27:59):
who is an energy aiment media journalists, writes that for
a woman who has mastered the art of being grown
and sexy, never has Beyonce in the past relied so
heavily on her physicality to let that overshadow the divine
talent that many praise her for religiously. And I can
definitely see that in this new album. I mean the
choice to make it a visual album, making seventeen different
(28:21):
videos that are you know that that are a lot
about her and what she looks like in her body,
to where you're focusing so much on what she's wearing,
how she's moving, how her she's presenting her body that
it kind of you kind of don't think so much
about her voice. Yeah, and Owens was definitely arguing that
(28:43):
and saying things along the lines of, you know, we
don't wonder what kind of underwear jay Z is wearing
when he's performing. Some of us in this room right
now don't about Jac's underwear, and he Owens is arguing
that doing so. Doing so really does oversimplify Beyonce pop
(29:08):
stars women in general, you know. He it seems like
there's a little bit of you know, Owen's being torn, like,
you know, she should be allowed to dance and wear
whatever she's wearing when she dances, because it's her body
and it's her thing or whatever. But also we're relying
too much on that visual We're reading too much into it,
We're making assumptions about her. We're not thinking about how
(29:29):
she's a tenacious businesswoman. We're just thinking about how good
she looks in lingerie. Yeah, it's kind of the question
of is even if it is Beyonce telling girls that
feminism is that everyone should be a feminist. According to
show Amanda Negoziadici, is that message really going to be
all that powerful if she's saying and while she's on
her knees right, Yeah, a lot. That has been a
(29:52):
lot of people's argument. It's like, yes, say whatever you want,
but you're still like practically wearing nothing on the cover
of g Q. You like your two messages aren't driving. Yeah,
but at the same time too, it's that same embrace,
clear embrace of her own body. I mean, Beyonce clearly
loves looking like Beyonce, and I would too. Um And
(30:16):
Brittany Cooper, who's the professor Rudgers, says that he actually
her videos are empowering. Quote. I think it's rough sque
but I think she's asking us to think about what
it means for black women to be sexual on our terms.
And that's something that we haven't touched on at all
in this conversation up to this point. Is race, because
(30:36):
we're talking not only about a pop icon, but we
were talking about a black pop icon, and I think
that that does color people's perspectives of that, and not
necessarily in a positive way. And along those same lines,
Semita Marco pagy over at Feminist NG talks about how
the album made us us women of color feel really
(30:59):
sex the and that's powerful. That means something, she said,
whereas the rest of popular culture may not have that
impact on us as young women of color. It's that
whole issue of the historical perception of black women, their sexuality,
what their sexuality means, who it's for. It's like it's
(31:19):
almost as if they haven't been a part of their
own discussion. Yeah, And one part of the her visual
album that jumps out to me in this part of
the conversation is the opening of Partition where she's sitting there, um,
you know, having having a fancy brunch and she intentionally
picks up a napkin and drops it in order to
(31:39):
usher immediately this white maid to come over and pick
it up. And one of the analyzes that I was
reading about that was basically like, in a way, it
seems like that's Beyonce kind of giving the middle finger too.
You know, white women who you know, want to have
control over how she displays her body and how she
moves it. Sure, well, that's that's part of this argument too,
(32:02):
is that a lot of women of color are speaking
out saying that white feminists are telling us how to
do things, that we're not doing feminism right, we're not
doing our bodies right, we're not doing sexuality right. And
you know, a lot of these women say they've had enough.
And I fully agree that, Um, that it's complicated, which
is part of why I wanted to talk about this,
(32:23):
But um, I am not on board with saying Beyonce
is not a feminist because she dresses like X because
that's a lot of body policing that's going on. And
also you swing it to the other side, and you
have feminists who have similarly said, oh, you know, it
must the women who are wearing jobs, who are covering
their bodies completely, you're not showing enough skin and that's
(32:45):
not feminist. So it's like, well, does this mean that
there is a specific way that is going to be
acceptable for me to dress according to your politics, because
apparently there's a uniform and from what I know of feminism,
that's that's a nope, that's not the way it is
or not the way it should be. No, I absolutely agree.
My uniform happens to be Liz Lemon plaid shirts and cardigans. Same.
(33:07):
But that's just me, that's just yah. Yeah, I prefer
stretchy pants and an oversized T shirt, you know. But no,
I I totally agree. I I think it's a moot
point to say that you are or are not a
feminist based on how you dress and how you physically
present yourself. I think there's way way more to it
(33:27):
than that. And you mentioned Madonna earlier, though Caroline and
Tamara Winfrey Harris made a really astute observation about the
difference between how white sexuality female sexuality is often judged
as something that is controlled and intentional. Madonna is hailed
as this amazing feminist who you know, she she wanted
(33:50):
to get naked and wear her cone braws and writhe
on the floor, and that's totally fine because that's you know,
that's controlled. She's breaking boundaries, whereas black sexuality, for so long,
you know, in in the most racist sense, has been
deemed as animalistic, and so for Beyonce, it's thoughtless, it's
not a choice. She's you know, she's dressing like that
(34:12):
simply for the male gaze. It must be that, right,
Which that's when it's like, oh well, well it is complicated.
Sarah Jackson, who's a race and media scholar at Northeastern,
talks about how this whole argument and the criticism ignores
the fact that there are limited choices available to women
(34:32):
in the entertainment industry, and she says, the limited ways
Beyonce is allowed to express her sexuality because of her
gender and her race, that's I mean, that's another layer
of it. Yeah. I think the essay that resonate the
most with me about this as written by Anne Helen Peterson,
who spoiler alert, we're having on stuff I've never told
(34:53):
you very soon Google her her blog is amazing, um.
But she sort of talked about the ambivalence of this
whole issue because on the one hand, she really enjoys
Beyonce as a pop star, but she can't so easily
reconcile the feminism that she is in a way selling.
You know, I mean, she's she's commodifying feminism along with
(35:17):
all of her songs and her looks and everything like that.
It's now part of the package. And while you know,
it's good that she's talking about it. At the same time,
we can ask for better, can't we maybe a more
legitimately across the word empowering portrayal of women. I don't know, yeah, um,
(35:41):
but I mean along that line, we do need to
ask ourselves why we're asking so much of Beyonce herself. Like,
you know, this is a woman, like okay, like, let's
break this down real quick. This is a woman who
is like a self managed the jillionaire, who obviously intelligent, driven,
(36:02):
all of that good stuff. She's also sexy, she's got
a great body, she is in love with her husband,
you know, she has she's a mother and she's incredibly
dedicated to her kid. So, like, you know, it's it
seems like in all of these conversations, you know, there's
always somebody talking about having it all and can you
have it all? And here's Beyonce, who you know, has
(36:25):
so much, and we expect her to be things that
you know, I don't. Maybe it's just not even fair
of all the things that people are expecting her to
be because she is so much and she does so much,
she's not the answer to our problems. Well, and whenever
we start looking around for a perfect feminist. That's the
most pointless exercise, because who among us is that's not
(36:48):
That's not really the point. Um. I also liked what
Tommy Givenson, UM Rookie mag founder had to say about
it too. She was like, if anything, I'm grateful for
the fact that, I mean, Beyonce's clearly working some things out,
and but she's doing it publicly. And this album to
her was a step forward, because I mean, it does
show us all of those sides that you just mentioned
(37:09):
of being sexy, ambitious, working out feminism, being married, having insecurities,
being a mother, all of it right there. And she
handed it to us and was like, well there you go.
And and people, we people are saying it's not it's
not good enough. Yeah, but you know it's like, well,
who who are you? I don't know who are you?
(37:31):
Who is she? What? You know? Yeah, After a day
of reading a lot of stuff about this um and
feeling just torn about the fact that this entire conversation
was going on, one thing I put on tumbler was that, hey,
you know she is She said that she's a feminist.
And she said that to an audience of girls like
we said, who who are probably not that exposed to
(37:52):
feminism and gender equality. And I would hate for the
outcome of this to be those same girls just hearing
feminists say Nope, not good enough. Because if Beyonce is
not good enough Beyonce can't you know, measure up to
the standards that we apparently have for her, then who
among us can? Yeah? And I think it is so unproductive,
(38:17):
both in my own life and Beyonce's life, And you
know whatever, It's so unproductive to just have a conversation
about are you a good enough feminist? How about how
about women supporting women? How about supporting Beyonce for her decisions?
And just say, right on, sister, you know, good for
you for speaking out. I mean, at least she's I mean,
(38:38):
look at her career. She's she's doing it for herself,
you know, and Blue Ivy doing it for Blue. That's
but one final question though, Caroline, why do you why
do you think this caused such an uproar? Why do
you think we care so much? She's one woman? Yeah,
I think, Um, so, okay, this is gonna be a
(39:00):
really rough analogy. But so like when I walk into
the break room at the office and I see that
someone has brought in cupcakes. I'm like, oh my god, cupcakes. Wait, wait, okay,
there will be other cupcakes. Like, I don't have to
get super excited about eating all of these cupcakes and
putting them all in my face. Do you see where
I'm going with this. I think that there are women
(39:21):
out there, men whoever, people out there who are so
excited at the prospect of some big star or some
big public person um taking on the issue of feminism
saying I'm a feminist. And then, however, when that person
is not exactly on point or not exactly falling into
line with what this group of viewers thinks should be feminist,
(39:46):
I think people get so upset and angry at that person,
and that's not fair. Yeah. I think in a way
this conversation has become has spun out into a way
that we a lot of women of our generation are
working out our ownings societies about gender and feminism and
success onto Beyonce. You know, there will be other cupcakes,
(40:07):
There will be other feminists. Not everybody is perfect. I
think that, um, we have to let people be who
they are and not be angry at them for them
failing us. Personally in some way. Right, But I will
tell you this, Caroline, there will never be another Beyonce.
That's right? Did I was? I? Did I go jogging
(40:28):
to Beyonce this morning? Yes? I did? Yes, I did.
That was what I got pumped up for this podcast.
So I want to open it up though, to listeners.
I'm so curious to know what other people think about this,
um Beyonce, share your thoughts mom Step Discovery dot com,
especially for younger listeners out there who might have, you know,
been growing up on a steady diet of Beyonce. What
(40:50):
do you think about all of this? Because I feel
like a lot of the conversation is dominated by women
our age and you know who are like what two,
Caroline uh So, write us mom Stuff at Discovery dot
com or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast
or message us on Facebook and we have a couple
of messages to share with you from Facebook right now. Well,
(41:15):
I am loving the feedback that we're getting on coffee
and the kind of barista bro Rista culture. And I
have a letter here from Sarah who says on bro
Rista's I used to be a barista and both of
my girlfriends as well, when we go to a coffee
house and see a guy behind the counter, we assume
our coffee will not be good, that only a woman
(41:35):
can make a proper espresso drink. I know that it's sexist,
but women have been better at pulling shots and creating
a perfect coffee in our experience, so I had no
idea that it was a man's world for coffee. Great episode,
and it was nice to see the other side of it.
So thank you, Sarah. Well, I've got one here from Tara,
who is a female barista, who says I can confirm
(41:56):
one of what you say is true. We barristas, I'll
know differences in customers based on gender and age. We
see teenage girls approaching, we joke about how many frappuccinos
were about to make. When we see a large group
of middle aged women, we immediately start foaming a large
picture of non fat milk, because more likely than not
we will be serving a bunch of skinny lattes. We
use this to our advantage when upselling customers. For example,
(42:18):
of a woman orders a black coffee, I can almost
always raise the price of the drink by suggestively selling
some vanilla or hazelnuts. Syrup. When I ask men if
they want to flavor in their black coffee, it is
almost always resounding no, followed by a look that suggests
I questioned this very manhood by suggesting that he might
like a flavored coffee. Additionally, I can increase the average
ticket of any man ordering a black coffee by asking
(42:40):
if he'd like to make his coffee stronger by adding
shots of espresso. Many people believe they're extra classy and
ordering a straight Americano why love americanos or black coffee,
But in reality they're missing out on all the things
we as verisas can create with different flavors and coffees.
Many men will never know the deliciousness of a salted
caramel mocha simply because it's considered feminine. Interestingly, all but
(43:03):
one barrest at her coffee shop is female. That being said,
every woman experiences sexual harassment on the job, at least
at my place of employment, and while we were obviously
not allowed to scream in any paying customers, we will
most certainly all caps give you decaf. However, it is
seen as an act of solidarity between female barristos to
decaf the creepy dude who just harassed your coworker. I
(43:27):
wrote her back and told her that I was so
glad she found a legal, a legal kind of tame
way to get back at creeps decaffing. I like it well.
If you have thoughts to share with us, Mom stuff
at Discovery dot com is our email address and for
links to all of our social media contacts, blog post videos,
(43:50):
and all of our podcast you can head on over
to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more
on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how
stuff Works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about Beyonce.
It's right, yeah. And the last night before we came
into the studio, I posted on Facebook that we were
(00:26):
going to talk about Beyonce and solicited listeners thoughts on
her because we're specifically talking about Beyonce and feminism in
their response, at least as a right before walking into
the studio was so perfect because there was someone who
was all about Beyonce, saying, Yeah, she's fantastic and really
(00:49):
great for girls and super empowering, and another woman who
was just staunchly against Beyonce. I think she's a total
phony when it comes to feminism. Doesn't like the way
that she dress is and how bootylicious she is. And
then another woman who said Beyonce, we're going to talk
about Beyonce. Really, I feel like that Facebook snapshot just
(01:10):
sums up the Beyonce spectrum. Yeah, I um, I do
not surprisingly follow anything that Beyonce says or does. I
had kind of been aware on the periphery that, like
she had expressed some stuff about being a feminist or
about feminism in general, and I hadn't really given it
much thought because I just tend to take everything that
(01:34):
pop stars of any ILKs say with a grain of salt, right,
and so I just didn't bother to like look up
anything that she had said. And as I was reading, uh,
as I was reading her words that she had pinned
for the Shriver Report and reading stuff about her album
and her lyrics, I mean there was a part of
me that was admittedly impressed. I mean, you don't typically
(01:58):
see young email pop stars these days owning the word feminist,
and here she is calling herself one, talking about equal
pay for equal work, men needing to demand equal pay
for the women in their lives, etcetera, etcetera. So that
that by itself, like in a little microcosm, like that's impressive.
(02:18):
But um, I think personally that the debate over Beyonce's
feminism is the more interesting part of this topic, not
necessarily Beyonce and her feminism or not itself. Yeah, I
completely agree this. This podcast isn't so much meant to
be the Beyonce biopic by any means, but more because
(02:42):
the blogosphere almost collapsed in on itself around Christmas, right
after she dropped her secret visual album on December right
before midnight, and everyone was just spinning their wheels saying,
oh my goodness, she's side being a you know, a
feminist thinker and she's using the word feminism. But she's
(03:03):
doing this and she's crawling around on the floor, And
what do we think about Beyonce. Is it a feminist
manifesto like Melissa Harris Perry says it is, or is
it just the same old stuff being cater you know,
catering to the male gaze. What do we make of this?
And so many people we're just talking talking about Beyondce
and feminism, Beyonce and feminism, that I felt like, yeah,
(03:27):
we should talk about it, especially because to someone made
a good point in one of these essays where it's
like it's worth talking about because Beyonce has a massive
following of girls, very few of whom are probably taking
women's studies classes, you know what I mean? Yeah, I
think And you know, christ and I were talking about
this and I was telling her that I think that
(03:49):
any time young girls and and really women, anybody uh
is exposed to the idea of feminism the word feminism,
the definition of it, the the culture surrounding it. I mean,
I think that's such a positive thing. And so if yes,
so if this pop star brings feminism into people's lives,
I think that's positive. Well, before we get into Beyonce
(04:11):
and feminism, I just want to offer a quick timeline
of Beyonce's rise to Beyonce dum because it's really I mean,
she's sort of in her her own galaxy at this point.
Uh So it all started, really though, in when Beyonce
was simply known as another member of Destiny's Child. This
is way back when you know, even a little bit
(04:33):
after the star search days. Her dad's her manager, her
mom's making all of Destiny's Child's costumes. Um. And what
was interesting to me it was the same year the
Destiney's Child and drops its first album, you have Lauren
Hill becoming the first female artist nominated for and winning
the most Grammys in a single night for her Miseducation
(04:56):
of Lauren Hill album. So some interesting synchronous y there.
And then she goes solo in two thousand and three
when she's twenty one, with the album Dangerously in Love,
and uh I found a New York Times review of
the album, and it was headlined solo Beyonce, She's no Ashanti,
which kind of made me feel old because I laughed
(05:18):
just like that. I was like, oh, yeah, Shanty. But
it was interesting though, because even back then with that
first album, the reviewer was talking about how Beyonce sort
of carved out this identity of being this fiercely independent woman,
whereas a Shanty was maybe suffering career wise because she
had always been attached to this group of, you know,
male rappers and was sort of always a little bit
(05:41):
of an accessory to them, whereas Beyonce has always kind
of been yeah, even in the dusty child days. Yeah,
she she really never hitched her wagon to a male star. Yeah,
how do you like that? Although except Jay Z, well yeah,
jay z uh. And that will obviously sleep come up
in this conversation about her feminism because in two thousand
(06:05):
and eight she marries Jay Z, same year she releases
Sasha Fierce Um. Two thousand twelve, daughter Blue Ivy is born,
and in two thousand thirteen, it's kind of the year
of Beyonce. She does the Super Bowl. Miss magazine put
her on the cover, and people freaked out, and not
(06:25):
in a good way, because I think the cover headline
was something along the lines of Beyonce and her fierce feminism,
and I just I saw some screenshots from the Miss
magazine Facebook page and people people weren't happy. Women were
not happy about that. Um. And then yeah, just before
(06:45):
midnight December, Beyonce the Visual Album drops on iTunes and
then you know, breaks a ba jillion sales records. Yeah,
insanity ensues, I mean absolutely, yeah. So let's let's talk
about Beyonce and feminism. Caroline. Yeah, she uh, she had
(07:06):
given some quotes to people, one of those people being
British Vogue, and she'd also talked to g Q and
said things about being like kind of a feminist, like
feminist in a way, and so a lot of people
when all of this this Beyonce feminism rigamarole started after
her album came out and after she pinned an essay
for The Shriver Report. Um, a lot of people were saying, like, look,
(07:28):
she can't even claim the term, like she's not you know,
she's just wearing her booty shorts and dancing around. She's
not a real feminist. Um. But she told British Vogue
that I guess I am a modern day feminist. I
do believe in equality. Why do you have to choose
what type of woman you are? Why do you have
to label yourself anything? I'm just a woman and I
(07:50):
love being a woman. I do believe in equality and
that we have a way to go and it's something
that's pushed aside and something that we have to have
been conditioned to accept. And when that quote, you know,
it hit the blogosphere again because I feel like a
lot of this conversation is, you know, really lives largely
on the internet. Um, a lot of people were kind
(08:10):
of disappointed in it by the fact that she seemed
reluctant to claim feminism, she seemed to qualify it a
little bit, and also doing that thing of someone I
mean when it comes to image management, Beyonce is Queen
b for sure, and you can kind of hear echoes
in that of saying, well, you know, why do I
(08:31):
need to label myself? Can't I be a woman? I'm
you know, I mean, that's that's that to me, is
something that a woman who it makes money off of
her image is going to say. So I can understand
that kind of that kind of nervousness. Maybe. Well, but
then when she was talking to g Q, on whose
(08:51):
cover she was photographed, you know, wearing like an to
call a crop top would be generous, she was wearing
like this almost boobearing shirt and like any tiny panties,
and but inside she gives the quote about feminism and
about how it's ridiculous that we that men are shaping
women's images and what is sexy and what it's feminine. Yeah,
(09:12):
I mean, it's it's clear from what she says that
she she's she knows what's up. She knows about the
mail gaze and sexual objectification and how could she not
being as successful as she is as a pop star.
I think that you only need to watch maybe one
of her videos to kind of figure that out. And
(09:32):
she you know, I mean, she fired her dad as
her manager in two thousand eleven. She's like she wholly
owns her empire at this point. Um. But with that
latest album Beyonce, it's like it was kind of her
feminist coming out parties. Some think you could at least
say that with a couple of tracks, sure, yeah, I
(09:54):
mean she has songs that cover the danger of obsessing
about your looks about women receiving sexual pleasure and liking
to receive sexual pleasure and it being okay for feminists
to like it. She even delivers I didn't really, I
just I was like, what is she saying in French?
What is this? I did not realize she was delivering
Julianne Moore's big Lebowski monologue about women and feminist liking sex. Yeah,
(10:16):
the translation is men think that feminists hates sex, but
it's a very stimulating and natural activity that women love.
This though, is in the middle of a song all
about I think it's off a partition where it's all
about how she and jay Z can't even get to
(10:37):
a party or the club that they're going to because
they're doing it in the back of the limo not
to be crashed. But I mean it's it's pretty explicit.
Hey when that happens, I'm like, I just need to
get to work. Well, then one of the lines of
the song is it took me forty five minutes to
get dressed and we're not even going to make it
there because we can't keep our hands off each other.
And she does talk about how in that song, especially
(10:59):
how she wants to be the girl that he wants
jay z wants. I mean, that's so easy. Well, she
also does address marriage and relationships being hard, that it's
okay to have problems and doubts and you know, should
we get married, blah blah blah, all that stuff, And
she even says that she talks about being more than
(11:19):
quote just his little wife. Yeah and and flawless, to
which I think of what got a lot of people
talking the most about Beyonce in feminism. She has a
line in the beginning of the song talking about how
you know, just because she might refer to herself as
Mrs Carter, don't basically, don't get it twisted. This is
(11:41):
all her stuff, this is her business, right. But that
song also features the much talked about speech It was
actually a Ted talk by Nigerian born writer Chimamanda Negozi
Adici uh talking about feminism and the definition of feminism,
but how she Adici would amend that definition to include
some more things. Yeah, and so for just a little
(12:03):
SoundBite of what Beyonce samples from that Ted talk. We
teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller. We
say to girls, you can have ambition, but not too much.
You should aim to be successful, but not too successful,
otherwise you will threaten the man. She says, we teach
girls that they cannot be sexual beings the way boys are.
(12:23):
Feminist as a person who believes in the social, political,
and economic equality of the sexes. And meanwhile, you know,
in this video Beyonce is I mean, she's she's just
like dancing and she's so angry and like making just
like she's so fierce. Is so overused these days, I
feel like, but she's fierce in that video as this
(12:46):
you know, woman is going on and on about feminism.
So people are like, what whoa, yeah, this is revolutionary.
But then other people being like, but she's gotta just
you know, booty shaken, right, and and you know, we
talked about how she had penn and essay for The
Shriver Report, which is Maria Shriver's website, in which Beyonce
(13:06):
talks about how equality doesn't exist, but it will be achieved,
uh quote when men and women are granted equal pay
and equal respect. And she talks about how attitudes about
women being less than are drilled into our heads from
an early age. So a common refrain that our podcast
listeners would be familiar with. But one thing too that
jumped out to me was that she used her legal
(13:27):
name in that essay, which is Beyonce Cardinals. She's not
Mrs Carter, as was the name of her World to War.
That she also got a lot of flak about that.
We'll talk about too. But you know it's an intentional hyphenation, right, Well,
I mean jay Z that's his legal name now too,
Seawn Cardinals as a jay Z Carter. Yeah, that's that's
(13:48):
the same, right, jay Z. Um. But as all of
this is happening in December and the first of this year,
this just sparks all of this debate, and like you said, Caroline,
the conversation about debate and the fact that we're talking
about it in the way that we're talking about it.
When I say we am going to say feminists at large,
(14:09):
not that we represent all of them by any means, um,
but these conversations, I think are say a lot about
modern feminism, and it's worthwhile to look into the substance
of these conversations, almost Beyonce's side, but not Beyonce's side. Um.
So we're gonna talk about this, this debate and the
(14:31):
people who say, absolutely, Beyonce plus feminism equals amazing, and
the people who say, Nope, sorry, Beyonce, you are you're
not cutting it. When we come right back from a
quick break and now the back to the podcast. So
before the break, we were just walking you through the
(14:54):
development of this really humongous, explosive internet conversation basically about
Beyonce and her feminism and how genuine it is, because
basically the argument boils down to, no, she's not a
real feminist. It's just marketing and pr so she can
make more money and get her name in the news.
And no, she's totally a feminist. And not only is
(15:14):
she a feminist, but she's advocating for empowerment and equality
for women, particularly women of color. Yeah, I mean, and
on the yes side of the argument, I mean you
can go to I mean, there are plenty of feminists
who automatically uphold Beyonce as an incredible, amazing, empowering icon,
pop icon and now feminist icon because she is as
(15:37):
successful as she is, because you know her, she is
so fearlessly bears her body and owns her business and
you know, sing songs about independence, and I mean, off
the you know, most recent album, Beyonce, you have songs
like pretty Hurts where she's acknowledging that, Yeah, even though
she is Beyonce and looks like Beyonce, body image is
(15:59):
still something that affects us all. And what better person
do you hear something like that from then Beyonce? You
know right? Yeah? Elan a document from Time magazine talks
about how Beyonce is singing about love and sex more
boldly than ever, peppering those songs with messages about independence
and motherhood and we're eating it up. You know, these
(16:19):
are things. Beyonce is a figure who is supposedly showing uh,
young girls and women that it is okay to be
a vibrant sexual being and be a mother and be
a wife, but also be that independent woman that you
want to be. And Documen also talks to about how
she kind of represents a generational divide perhaps in feminism
(16:42):
where some people might not be so on board with it,
because in a way, she's her own type of feminist.
Doctuman writes, we millennials are not of the traditional generation
of feminist who believed that a woman needs a man
like a fish needs a bicycle. Yeah, and so Documan
talks about how Beyonce is sort of at the forefront
of this, this younger generation of feminists who maybe aren't
(17:06):
fighting against the idea of I don't know, men, of relationships,
of marriage, of the traditional bonds of motherhood, all of
that stuff. Maybe she's not fighting against that so hard.
Maybe she's just fighting for equality, and she's fighting for
it in her own way. So there are plenty of
people on on this side of the conversation saying, go Beyonce,
(17:27):
Beyonce for the win. But then there are also plenty
of people saying, even based on this most recent album
in which yes, fantastic that you sampled Chimamanda Negoziadici, but hey,
let's talk about drunk in Love and something that jay
Z says in that and that she also sang along
with when they opened the Grammys. Yeah, so his part
(17:52):
in that song, he he says, I'm Ike Turner, now
eat the cake aname And for those not aware, that
is from a scene in the movie What's Love Got
to Do With It about Tina Turner, and basically Ike
Turner is shoving literally shoving cake in her face. It's
a moment of you know, terror, when he's basically abusing
(18:14):
her in public. And so a lot of people are
left like, basically, you know, the record scratched for a
lot of people, Like what. A lot of people are saying,
that's just part of the song. It's just it's just music,
you know, let it go. But there are other people
who were saying, how can you call yourself a feminist
but condone your husband's singing about spousal abuse in your song? Yeah?
(18:37):
I mean, And and for people who haven't heard Drunken Love,
first of all, you probably heard Drunken Love and they
might not have realized it from the outside. The first
time I listened to it, and I wasn't aware of
that line or and especially not with that lineman. I
was like, well, Beyonce and jay Z, I mean, talk
about an argument for a married couple because they are
(18:57):
having sex in a bathtub and she is making surfboard
references and riding waves and I feel like I can't
even talk anymore about it on this podcast. Um. And
in a way, it's like, oh, good for them. They
are a married couple with a kid and they still
have crazy nuts together, so what's wrong with that? But then, yeah,
(19:18):
the record scratch so loudly. For me. Once someone actually
tweeted at me about this line, I was like, oh no,
And this is when it gets in. We started getting
into the territory of trying to jump inside of Beyonce
and jay Z's brains and be like, well, is this
Maybe this is like a dynamic in their relationship. Maybe
they're like into b D s M, or maybe this
(19:39):
means something to them that it doesn't mean to us.
It's still for someone again who is so hyper vigilant
of image management, it's like, what what has that got
to be in there? Yeah? And I mean I think
that's an incredibly important thing to keep in mind. Whenever
you're analyzing anything that fiance says, does say things, whatever,
(20:00):
you have to remember how carefully she manages her own
I mean, this is a woman who has you know,
basically staff photographers and videographers with her at all times.
This is a woman who you know, got her people
to tell BuzzFeed to take down unflattering images of her
when her face was doing something weird. Um, So this
is not just like this is not ignorance, like I
(20:21):
don't know, I don't know what this is, but it's
the choice. I mean, it's it's a deliberate choice. Yeah,
but I I mean, I just you have to wonder why.
And then um a Ceba Solomon over at color lines
dot Com does think that this is essentially well condoning
spousal abuse or domestic abuse at worst, but at best
(20:42):
just not thinking it's a big deal. And she also
points out that during Beyonce's Grammy performance of the song
with jay Z, like jay Z is fully dressed, but
Beyonce is like half naked and soaking wet. She does say,
you know, that's that's her prerogative. Women should be allowed
to dress however they want to dres us where whatever
they want to wear or don't wear, however, like this
(21:03):
is an image choice that she's choosing to make. Well,
And if you're so surprised by the Grammys, Like, how
are you that surprised? Because that's the video, that's the
aesthetic of the video. She's writhing around on the beach
in lingerie and jay Z is in a T shirt
right and nothing new sure, And and as we'll talk
(21:25):
about in just a second, like you know, we're people
as upset at Madonna right right right? And also side no,
I don't want to see jay z shirt listening he
cuts a good figure in a tuxedo. I'll leave it
at that. But moving away from aesthetic choices lyrical choices
to more of the production side of things. Uh. David
(21:47):
Levycy writing at Policy Mike, also points out that, hey, Beyonce,
if you're all about girls running the world and what's not,
why don't you help some ladies out in the production
of your music. Yeah. He points out that out of
the forty five artists listed in the liner notes to
this latest album, which includes writers, producers, directors, et cetera,
(22:11):
only six are women, and he wrote that this is
a surprising move for the pop star who very deliberately
chose the all female backing band The Sugar Momas for
her Super Bowl halftime show last year and for her
Mrs Carter tour side note. Um a friend of mine,
I was talking to a friend of mine about this
topic and he is a musician, and he was like, well,
(22:31):
you know, I you know, I kind of think it's
stupid that she pulled together this all female band. And
I was like, what do you mean, Like, please please
qualify your statement, and he said, look, I just I
know some of the guys that used to perform with her,
and they were better. They're just better musicians. And I
thought about it for a second, and I said, you know,
I don't care because I personally, I think if if
(22:56):
somebody's going to make a statement along the lines of
empowering women and giving jobs to women and putting women
in your face who were like b A musicians, you know, like,
I'm okay with that. I'm okay with her choosing musicians
who may not be as good as the guys who
she was playing with, but they're still amazing, right, Because
(23:18):
that's clearly in Beyonce's own words, because that's one thing
that's often left out these conversations or Beyonce's own words
um when she talks about why she pulled together the
Sugar Mama's It wasn't necessarily because she was looking for
the best musicians out there. She said, quote when I
was younger, I wish I had more females who played
instruments to look up to. I played piano for like
(23:38):
a second, but then I stopped. I just wanted to
do something which would inspire other young females to get
involved in music. So I put together in all women
bands and I mean, I'm thirty and I think that's
so cool. Like, let's you know, that's not even to
talk about a twelve year old girl out there who
might think, oh wow, look at those women being powerful
and amazing and sweaty up on stay age, like rocking
(24:00):
out with Beyonce at the freaking super Bowl, Like I
think that's amazing. Yeah, and giving her the benefit of
the doubt too, you can also argue that she is
not going to be able to make every single or
probably doesn't want to make every single hiring decision for
her massive team, right, And Christine osa Zua was blogging
(24:23):
about this, and she said, look, it's just it's impractical
to put all of that weight on one human being,
one woman, Beyonce, to sort of be the savior for
all women. She can't lift everyone up. You know. She
this is her career, and like we've said, she's managing it.
She's making all these decisions, but it's not like she
can you know, has every ounce of control over every
(24:44):
aspect of who she performs with. You know. And when
I read that very pertinent point made by osa Zua,
it also resonated me in terms of like, yeah, this
is like, this isn't just about the music industry. We
can't really hold up as a beacon of hope for
radically changing the lives of women everywhere, and yet we
(25:05):
want to. Yeah, I mean we want to. It's it's
like the anger that comes out of this is almost saying,
you disappoint me when it's not her responsibility to be
some feminist savior. But at the same time, too, you'll
have people say, well, okay, with all of the power
that she does wield in the pop world and that influence,
(25:27):
you can't argue that, you know, she doesn't have massive influence. Sure,
so what about the decision to, for instance, title her
tour the Mrs Carter Show, which, again, that is a choice,
that was a deliberate choice. Yeah, and this is a
woman who has said that she wouldn't be the woman
she is today if she didn't go home to that man,
(25:48):
And a lot of people are saying, oh, you're defining
yourself by this man, You're defining yourself by your marriage.
And she's not entirely disagreeing. She is her own woman.
She is a powerful, intelligent businesswoman, but she also happens
to be crazy in love with jay Z. Yeah, and
and some have said to hey, listen. Barack Obama has
(26:10):
said similar things about Michelle in terms of hey, I
wouldn't be standing here, as you know, Commander in chief
if it weren't for my best friend of you know,
X number of years and the person who has supported
me through all of this um And she did actually
speak to the decision to name the tour the Mrs
(26:31):
Carter Tour in that interview with British, but we sided earlier.
She said, quote, I feel like Mrs Carter is who
I am, but more bold and more fearless than I've
ever been. It comes from my knowing my purpose and
really meeting myself. Once I saw my child, I was like, okay,
this is what you were born to do. And this
is what really stood out to me. She said, the
purpose of my body became completely different, and that just
(26:53):
blew my mind because underlying all of these, this whole
conversation about it is she doesn't she is she really
what she says she is. In terms of feminism, it
all circles back to her body and how we view
her body and how she wants us to view her body,
and whether she's putting her body on display for herself
or for other men, or just for jay Z, you know,
(27:17):
and the whole issue of how do we reconcile her
sexuality and her commodifying her own body and feminism. Yeah,
and a lot of people would argue that, look, hey,
it's just not feminist. You're not a feminist for putting
on some slinky body suit and dancing around. And one
of those people who spoke out about that was Anna Holmes,
(27:39):
who's the founder of Jezebel, And you know, she says
that maybe this is like a younger feminist game, Like,
it's not of her more conservative, older feminist perspective to
you know, dance around in basically a bikini. Um. She
says that, you know, it's it feels like a performance
just for the benefit of men. And similarly, Ernest Owens,
(27:59):
who is an energy aiment media journalists, writes that for
a woman who has mastered the art of being grown
and sexy, never has Beyonce in the past relied so
heavily on her physicality to let that overshadow the divine
talent that many praise her for religiously. And I can
definitely see that in this new album. I mean the
choice to make it a visual album, making seventeen different
(28:21):
videos that are you know that that are a lot
about her and what she looks like in her body,
to where you're focusing so much on what she's wearing,
how she's moving, how her she's presenting her body that
it kind of you kind of don't think so much
about her voice. Yeah, and Owens was definitely arguing that
(28:43):
and saying things along the lines of, you know, we
don't wonder what kind of underwear jay Z is wearing
when he's performing. Some of us in this room right
now don't about Jac's underwear, and he Owens is arguing
that doing so. Doing so really does oversimplify Beyonce pop
(29:08):
stars women in general, you know. He it seems like
there's a little bit of you know, Owen's being torn, like,
you know, she should be allowed to dance and wear
whatever she's wearing when she dances, because it's her body
and it's her thing or whatever. But also we're relying
too much on that visual We're reading too much into it,
We're making assumptions about her. We're not thinking about how
(29:29):
she's a tenacious businesswoman. We're just thinking about how good
she looks in lingerie. Yeah, it's kind of the question
of is even if it is Beyonce telling girls that
feminism is that everyone should be a feminist. According to
show Amanda Negoziadici, is that message really going to be
all that powerful if she's saying and while she's on
her knees right, Yeah, a lot. That has been a
(29:52):
lot of people's argument. It's like, yes, say whatever you want,
but you're still like practically wearing nothing on the cover
of g Q. You like your two messages aren't driving. Yeah,
but at the same time too, it's that same embrace,
clear embrace of her own body. I mean, Beyonce clearly
loves looking like Beyonce, and I would too. Um And
(30:16):
Brittany Cooper, who's the professor Rudgers, says that he actually
her videos are empowering. Quote. I think it's rough sque
but I think she's asking us to think about what
it means for black women to be sexual on our terms.
And that's something that we haven't touched on at all
in this conversation up to this point. Is race, because
(30:36):
we're talking not only about a pop icon, but we
were talking about a black pop icon, and I think
that that does color people's perspectives of that, and not
necessarily in a positive way. And along those same lines,
Semita Marco pagy over at Feminist NG talks about how
the album made us us women of color feel really
(30:59):
sex the and that's powerful. That means something, she said,
whereas the rest of popular culture may not have that
impact on us as young women of color. It's that
whole issue of the historical perception of black women, their sexuality,
what their sexuality means, who it's for. It's like it's
(31:19):
almost as if they haven't been a part of their
own discussion. Yeah, And one part of the her visual
album that jumps out to me in this part of
the conversation is the opening of Partition where she's sitting there, um,
you know, having having a fancy brunch and she intentionally
picks up a napkin and drops it in order to
(31:39):
usher immediately this white maid to come over and pick
it up. And one of the analyzes that I was
reading about that was basically like, in a way, it
seems like that's Beyonce kind of giving the middle finger too.
You know, white women who you know, want to have
control over how she displays her body and how she
moves it. Sure, well, that's that's part of this argument too,
(32:02):
is that a lot of women of color are speaking
out saying that white feminists are telling us how to
do things, that we're not doing feminism right, we're not
doing our bodies right, we're not doing sexuality right. And
you know, a lot of these women say they've had enough.
And I fully agree that, Um, that it's complicated, which
is part of why I wanted to talk about this,
(32:23):
But um, I am not on board with saying Beyonce
is not a feminist because she dresses like X because
that's a lot of body policing that's going on. And
also you swing it to the other side, and you
have feminists who have similarly said, oh, you know, it
must the women who are wearing jobs, who are covering
their bodies completely, you're not showing enough skin and that's
(32:45):
not feminist. So it's like, well, does this mean that
there is a specific way that is going to be
acceptable for me to dress according to your politics, because
apparently there's a uniform and from what I know of feminism,
that's that's a nope, that's not the way it is
or not the way it should be. No, I absolutely agree.
My uniform happens to be Liz Lemon plaid shirts and cardigans. Same.
(33:07):
But that's just me, that's just yah. Yeah, I prefer
stretchy pants and an oversized T shirt, you know. But no,
I I totally agree. I I think it's a moot
point to say that you are or are not a
feminist based on how you dress and how you physically
present yourself. I think there's way way more to it
(33:27):
than that. And you mentioned Madonna earlier, though Caroline and
Tamara Winfrey Harris made a really astute observation about the
difference between how white sexuality female sexuality is often judged
as something that is controlled and intentional. Madonna is hailed
as this amazing feminist who you know, she she wanted
(33:50):
to get naked and wear her cone braws and writhe
on the floor, and that's totally fine because that's you know,
that's controlled. She's breaking boundaries, whereas black sexuality, for so long,
you know, in in the most racist sense, has been
deemed as animalistic, and so for Beyonce, it's thoughtless, it's
not a choice. She's you know, she's dressing like that
(34:12):
simply for the male gaze. It must be that, right,
Which that's when it's like, oh well, well it is complicated.
Sarah Jackson, who's a race and media scholar at Northeastern,
talks about how this whole argument and the criticism ignores
the fact that there are limited choices available to women
(34:32):
in the entertainment industry, and she says, the limited ways
Beyonce is allowed to express her sexuality because of her
gender and her race, that's I mean, that's another layer
of it. Yeah. I think the essay that resonate the
most with me about this as written by Anne Helen Peterson,
who spoiler alert, we're having on stuff I've never told
(34:53):
you very soon Google her her blog is amazing, um.
But she sort of talked about the ambivalence of this
whole issue because on the one hand, she really enjoys
Beyonce as a pop star, but she can't so easily
reconcile the feminism that she is in a way selling.
You know, I mean, she's she's commodifying feminism along with
(35:17):
all of her songs and her looks and everything like that.
It's now part of the package. And while you know,
it's good that she's talking about it. At the same time,
we can ask for better, can't we maybe a more
legitimately across the word empowering portrayal of women. I don't know, yeah, um,
(35:41):
but I mean along that line, we do need to
ask ourselves why we're asking so much of Beyonce herself. Like,
you know, this is a woman, like okay, like, let's
break this down real quick. This is a woman who
is like a self managed the jillionaire, who obviously intelligent, driven,
(36:02):
all of that good stuff. She's also sexy, she's got
a great body, she is in love with her husband,
you know, she has she's a mother and she's incredibly
dedicated to her kid. So, like, you know, it's it
seems like in all of these conversations, you know, there's
always somebody talking about having it all and can you
have it all? And here's Beyonce, who you know, has
(36:25):
so much, and we expect her to be things that
you know, I don't. Maybe it's just not even fair
of all the things that people are expecting her to
be because she is so much and she does so much,
she's not the answer to our problems. Well, and whenever
we start looking around for a perfect feminist. That's the
most pointless exercise, because who among us is that's not
(36:48):
That's not really the point. Um. I also liked what
Tommy Givenson, UM Rookie mag founder had to say about
it too. She was like, if anything, I'm grateful for
the fact that, I mean, Beyonce's clearly working some things out,
and but she's doing it publicly. And this album to
her was a step forward, because I mean, it does
show us all of those sides that you just mentioned
(37:09):
of being sexy, ambitious, working out feminism, being married, having insecurities,
being a mother, all of it right there. And she
handed it to us and was like, well there you go.
And and people, we people are saying it's not it's
not good enough. Yeah, but you know it's like, well,
who who are you? I don't know who are you?
(37:31):
Who is she? What? You know? Yeah, After a day
of reading a lot of stuff about this um and
feeling just torn about the fact that this entire conversation
was going on, one thing I put on tumbler was that, hey,
you know she is She said that she's a feminist.
And she said that to an audience of girls like
we said, who who are probably not that exposed to
(37:52):
feminism and gender equality. And I would hate for the
outcome of this to be those same girls just hearing
feminists say Nope, not good enough. Because if Beyonce is
not good enough Beyonce can't you know, measure up to
the standards that we apparently have for her, then who
among us can? Yeah? And I think it is so unproductive,
(38:17):
both in my own life and Beyonce's life, And you
know whatever, It's so unproductive to just have a conversation
about are you a good enough feminist? How about how
about women supporting women? How about supporting Beyonce for her decisions?
And just say, right on, sister, you know, good for
you for speaking out. I mean, at least she's I mean,
(38:38):
look at her career. She's she's doing it for herself,
you know, and Blue Ivy doing it for Blue. That's
but one final question though, Caroline, why do you why
do you think this caused such an uproar? Why do
you think we care so much? She's one woman? Yeah,
I think, Um, so, okay, this is gonna be a
(39:00):
really rough analogy. But so like when I walk into
the break room at the office and I see that
someone has brought in cupcakes. I'm like, oh my god, cupcakes. Wait, wait, okay,
there will be other cupcakes. Like, I don't have to
get super excited about eating all of these cupcakes and
putting them all in my face. Do you see where
I'm going with this. I think that there are women
(39:21):
out there, men whoever, people out there who are so
excited at the prospect of some big star or some
big public person um taking on the issue of feminism
saying I'm a feminist. And then, however, when that person
is not exactly on point or not exactly falling into
line with what this group of viewers thinks should be feminist,
(39:46):
I think people get so upset and angry at that person,
and that's not fair. Yeah. I think in a way
this conversation has become has spun out into a way
that we a lot of women of our generation are
working out our ownings societies about gender and feminism and
success onto Beyonce. You know, there will be other cupcakes,
(40:07):
There will be other feminists. Not everybody is perfect. I
think that, um, we have to let people be who
they are and not be angry at them for them
failing us. Personally in some way. Right, But I will
tell you this, Caroline, there will never be another Beyonce.
That's right? Did I was? I? Did I go jogging
(40:28):
to Beyonce this morning? Yes? I did? Yes, I did.
That was what I got pumped up for this podcast.
So I want to open it up though, to listeners.
I'm so curious to know what other people think about this,
um Beyonce, share your thoughts mom Step Discovery dot com,
especially for younger listeners out there who might have, you know,
been growing up on a steady diet of Beyonce. What
(40:50):
do you think about all of this? Because I feel
like a lot of the conversation is dominated by women
our age and you know who are like what two,
Caroline uh So, write us mom Stuff at Discovery dot
com or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast
or message us on Facebook and we have a couple
of messages to share with you from Facebook right now. Well,
(41:15):
I am loving the feedback that we're getting on coffee
and the kind of barista bro Rista culture. And I
have a letter here from Sarah who says on bro
Rista's I used to be a barista and both of
my girlfriends as well, when we go to a coffee
house and see a guy behind the counter, we assume
our coffee will not be good, that only a woman
(41:35):
can make a proper espresso drink. I know that it's sexist,
but women have been better at pulling shots and creating
a perfect coffee in our experience, so I had no
idea that it was a man's world for coffee. Great episode,
and it was nice to see the other side of it.
So thank you, Sarah. Well, I've got one here from Tara,
who is a female barista, who says I can confirm
(41:56):
one of what you say is true. We barristas, I'll
know differences in customers based on gender and age. We
see teenage girls approaching, we joke about how many frappuccinos
were about to make. When we see a large group
of middle aged women, we immediately start foaming a large
picture of non fat milk, because more likely than not
we will be serving a bunch of skinny lattes. We
use this to our advantage when upselling customers. For example,
(42:18):
of a woman orders a black coffee, I can almost
always raise the price of the drink by suggestively selling
some vanilla or hazelnuts. Syrup. When I ask men if
they want to flavor in their black coffee, it is
almost always resounding no, followed by a look that suggests
I questioned this very manhood by suggesting that he might
like a flavored coffee. Additionally, I can increase the average
ticket of any man ordering a black coffee by asking
(42:40):
if he'd like to make his coffee stronger by adding
shots of espresso. Many people believe they're extra classy and
ordering a straight Americano why love americanos or black coffee,
But in reality they're missing out on all the things
we as verisas can create with different flavors and coffees.
Many men will never know the deliciousness of a salted
caramel mocha simply because it's considered feminine. Interestingly, all but
(43:03):
one barrest at her coffee shop is female. That being said,
every woman experiences sexual harassment on the job, at least
at my place of employment, and while we were obviously
not allowed to scream in any paying customers, we will
most certainly all caps give you decaf. However, it is
seen as an act of solidarity between female barristos to
decaf the creepy dude who just harassed your coworker. I
(43:27):
wrote her back and told her that I was so
glad she found a legal, a legal kind of tame
way to get back at creeps decaffing. I like it well.
If you have thoughts to share with us, Mom stuff
at Discovery dot com is our email address and for
links to all of our social media contacts, blog post videos,
(43:50):
and all of our podcast you can head on over
to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more
on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how
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